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Topic: Faneuil Hall Boston - Street Hypnosis
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 1, 2011 11:21PM)
Having just returned from Anthony Jacquin's Headhacking in NYC, I am anxious to get out there and practice. You can read my review here;

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=414462&forum=22#0

I would like to organize a group to go out to the streets of Boston and practice our craft. Groups build confidence and we can actually feed each other subjects.

I know many of you were just like me, spending too much time thinking about it but not doing it. This is your chance. You know you need to do this.
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 4, 2011 10:21PM)
If you're in the Boston area and you read this, please PM me and tell me why you would or would not like to participate in this?
Message: Posted by: mahucharn (May 4, 2011 11:35PM)
If only this were in California, I would totally come meet with you! I feel like I am also in your situation. I know lots of the techniques involved and taught in the Trilby Connection, but I haven't been confident enough to go out and try it on anyone.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 5, 2011 03:03AM)
Ive got a practice group going in the mean time, but I have to say that my original approach has proved to be more useful to me. Heres what I did: (I was lucky enough to have a volunteer who I hypnotized)

Go to a bar with volunteers (friends of friends work better than friends, or just have someone fake it if you cant get a proper volunteer).
Sit AT THE BAR (not in a corner) and get some banter going with the bar staff.
Do a card trick, coin trick, mentalism "effect" ;) or anything else that might help arouse the interest of the bar staff.
Then go into the hypnosis (or faking it) with your volunteer(s).
Afterwards explain to the bar staff that youre a hypnotist, and if anyone else in the bar would like to have a go youll happily oblige. You dont have to go for full blown hypnosis, you can just do some suggestability tests and stop at that.

On my first visit to the bar the bar staff were scared silly, but they were fascinated.
On my second visit they got me a volunteer.
On my third visit on saturday night they had a volunteer waiting for me as soon as I walked in the door. Later that night I had people queing up to be hypnotized.

It might take a few visits, and maybe I got lucky with my selection of bar. My point is, dont let not having a practice group hold you back.

Pros of a practice group - you can learn from each other, and its good to bounce ideas around.

Cons - I had to invest time in finding a bar I thought would be good to do this in, and "working the bar" to get to the stage its at now. I will invest more time in working other bars, then prospecting for gigs. If youre getting into performance hypnosis then it might not be in your best interests to bring your competition into bars and have them hypnotizing people. Another con is that I imagine itll get rather boring hypnotizing the same limited number of people in your practice group all the time. Id rather have fresh volunteers so that I can tweak my approach/induction/patter etc etc and have a "clean run" rather regularly.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 07:50AM)
What exactly are you "practicing" by doing this?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 07:51AM)
I believe there are rules about who can and can not perform at Faneuil Hall. I would tred carefully. I am not saying don't do it, I am not saying anything but to check into it.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 5, 2011 08:15AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-05 08:50, Dannydoyle wrote:
What exactly are you "practicing" by doing this?
[/quote]

In the practice group we see who responds to what, who is capable of manifesting what phenomenon, what induction techniques we can get to work, test different styles (maternal, paternal) and practice whatever we can really. We experiment.

In the bar with the public what Im practicing is how to progress, normally once a light or moderate trance state has been induced. I do suggestability tests and then see how to escalate phenomenon starting with ideomotor response. Id like to establish a nice reliable structure for a stage show that I can follow so that I dont end up dismissing subjects because I simply pushed them too hard. I suppose you could say Im practicing how to structure an entertaining show?
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 5, 2011 08:18AM)
The goal is to practice the art of hypnosis, all aspiring hypnotists know what I'm talking about. At Anthonys Headhacking in NY we went out to Union Square to practice on the public. One of the issues hypnotists have is approaching people cold. A group gives you confidence, you can practice on one another just to get attention, a crowd quickly forms, then we can feed people to each other. The only way to become proficient is to do this over and over.

I know there are aspiring hypnotist out there in the Boston area, who know exactly what I'm talking about, nervous about it, always looking for the opportunity but never quite getting there. You guys know who I'm talking about and you know you need to do this.

Step up, we'll all take the chance together.

Owen - I've thought about the bar too, I just performed at a comedy club and I'm going to approach them about doing walk-around.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 5, 2011 09:20AM)
I just don't understand this fascination with going up to strangers in public to attempt hypnosis. I know Anthony seems to be the biggest proponent of this under the guise of gaining confidence, but I must say I totally disagree for several reasons.

I also believe this can backfire. These guys go out with their chest out and attempt this. I don't care what you say, people approached are apprehensive, possible scared and definitely awkward - all which work against hypnosis success. Then when the demonstration fails instead but building confidence, the new hypnotist has embarassment, self-doubt, and failure in public. In my opinion this sets one up for failure. This greatly discredits the ability of the hypnotist and hypnosis itself.

Not to mention my greatest cause for concern. Something that all of these younger newcomers will not understand. For years now, and I mean decades, generations, we have been fighting for credibility, respect and the proper understanding of hypnosis. Using this ambush street approach completely undoes and works against all credibility than has been established and fought for for years. It reduces hypnosis to "a cool trick" or "some kind of neat oddity" that you would experience from an old carnival barker or scammer on the midway.

Doing this in a bar also only reduces the perception of this to a "bar trick". I have to believe if you want to attempt this style of hypnosis there are other ways to do this and gain the desired experience and confidence. Also where does this approach to street hypnosis lead to? Is the goal to become a stage hypnotist or just become competent at walking up to strangers and doing this? Is it just to add something else to your magic performance and abilities?

If the desire of this to to become a stage performer and make a decent living performing hypnosis, there are many better ways to accomplish this. I was recently at a college campus where I witnessed and assisted a young newcomer take this and made it lead to a paid performance. Taking my advice quickly made $400.00 and is positioned to repeat this making the same or more each time. Now granted $400.00 isn't a lot of money compared to what a real stage hypnotist can make, but I'm pretty sure it's more than 95% of most street hypnosis performers make. It's also pretty good for a newbie college kid.

I must say I am surprised in rpierce as in following his recent performances and his seemingly taking the professional high road, why are you resorting to this? This seems to be a step in the wrong direction and perhaps even backwards to the path you were taking. Especially knowing who and what you know.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 09:22AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-05 09:18, rpierce wrote:
The goal is to practice the art of hypnosis, all aspiring hypnotists know what I'm talking about. At Anthonys Headhacking in NY we went out to Union Square to practice on the public. One of the issues hypnotists have is approaching people cold. A group gives you confidence, you can practice on one another just to get attention, a crowd quickly forms, then we can feed people to each other. The only way to become proficient is to do this over and over.

I know there are aspiring hypnotist out there in the Boston area, who know exactly what I'm talking about, nervous about it, always looking for the opportunity but never quite getting there. You guys know who I'm talking about and you know you need to do this.

Step up, we'll all take the chance together.

Owen - I've thought about the bar too, I just performed at a comedy club and I'm going to approach them about doing walk-around.
[/quote]

I don't think "aspiring hypnotists" should have anything to do with the practice. I think you can learn almost nothing about a stage show from this. But that is just me.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 5, 2011 10:08AM)
Hello Mindpro,
I liked your post and I agree with you on several points. This may be a step in the wrong direction for someone who is already accustomed to performing on stage. However, as I have no previous stage experience, I think maybe I should clarify a few points.

I have no fascination with going up to strangers in public to hypnotize them, I merely want to improve my technique and acquire experience before progressing to paid gigs.

you said:

"people approached are apprehensive, possible scared and definitely awkward - all which work against hypnosis success."

In my experience, if not 100% true, this is the truth in well over 90% of the cases I have encountered.

This is exactly the reason I have gone for the strategy of trying to gain something of a reputation in a limited number of bars for being a hypnotist. At present it seems to build response potential, and has achieved my aim of having people approach me instead of asking random strangers if theyd like to be hypnotized. The biggest obstacle I found (after overcoming the fear of failure) was finding subjects to practice with.
The learning curve has something of a double edged sword - your progress will be very slow unless you try new things. You will almost certainly have some failures when you try new things. For the moment I prefer to have a failure in a bar infront of a limited number of people instead of a failure on stage infront of several hundred. With any luck it will not be long before Im performing paid gigs infront of several hundred people. Im actively seeking gigs whilst gaining experience. I plan to use one bar as a kind of practice ground, and will only do a brief demo in any of the bars I visit looking for gigs.

Id love to hear about what helped your newcomer apprentice turn the gig into a $400 event, but Ill understand if you dont want to share the info. I have contemplated taking live training such as Anthonys or that offered by Jonathan Chase.

As soon as Im earning money with hypnosis I fully intend upon taking live training, but Ive already invested money in books, DVDs, and hiring a mentor. For me what it boils down to is wanting to become proficient before getting up on stage. I believe that if I get up on stage and am unprepared, it may well show and that this would do more harm to any possible professional future I might have (and to people like yourself who are seasoned pros).

As enjoyable as I find the bar sessions, street hypnosis is not what I want to do. Id love to fill theatres, concert halls etc with a stage hypnosis routine and have the cash pouring in. If anyone has any suggestions on how to go about doing this, then Id absolutely love to hear them.

I could be incorrect, but I think that Mr. Pierce also has a desire to grow his confidence. Hes even had live training with Anthony but wants to get out there and road test things a bit more before taking it to the stage.

Are we barking up the wrong tree by wanting experience before we do this infront of large audiences?
What are the "many better ways to accomplish this"? - Ill settle for hearing just a few!

Im willing to try any decent suggestions and promise Ill quit practicing in the bar if the suggestions are viable - afterall, if this turns into something I can earn money with, Im not going to do it for free to entertain people at the drop of a hat.
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 5, 2011 10:29AM)
I for one, was not good at approaching strangers to practice with, I have no desire to pursue street hypnosis for its own sake.

I see hypnosis as a means to take my mentalism to the next level. I do not even like traditional stage hypnosis, its not for me. But blending mentalism with hypnotism seems to have unlimited potential, its the closest thing I have seen to my original inspiration of Derren Brown.

If I was still in college, I would have ample subjects to work with. Now at 54, out in the professional world, I find it oddly inappropriate to introduce this with colleagues. The only way to become proficient at this is to practice, alot. I have very few opportunities to practice, very few. And as much as I dislike approaching strangers, I do not see many other good alternatives.

That said, the methods taught by Anthony do not result in failure, maybe a reduced effect but the subjects have no idea where its going anyway and they do get some kind of experience, so its all a win. And I have the ultimate out by performing a mentalism effect.

To conquer my own insecurities about approaching strangers I am pursuing the group approach. We can feed people to each other without having to approach them cold. Practice on each other to draw a crowd, and it does, I've seen it.

I know there are critics out there of Street Hypnosis, I know ultimately it is not for me, I am just hungry for experience and I do not see many other alternatives that would not potentially tarnish my life in the professional world.

I am very open to suggestions, please, bring them on, I need all the help I can get
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 5, 2011 10:40AM)
I should have written "As soon as Im earning money with hypnosis I fully intend upon taking MORE live training".
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 5, 2011 10:59AM)
>>>That said, the methods taught by Anthony do not result in failure, maybe a reduced effect but the subjects have no idea where its going anyway and they do get some kind of experience, so its all a win. And I have the ultimate out by performing a mentalism effect.<<<

What exactly do you class as success? I would read mindpro's post again I think he makes some good points. I can't see the fascination with approaching strangers or any real benefit for a professional performer. It doesn't look or come over professional and the results are pretty naff.

Its playing at being "the hypnotist".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 01:03PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-05 11:40, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
I should have written "As soon as Im earning money with hypnosis I fully intend upon taking MORE live training".

[/quote]

I can not speak for Mindrpo, would never try, but I think much of what many of us are thinking can be summed up in "BEFORE you start making money wity hypnosis is when you will need live training".

I wonder what gives people the right to go out and just ambush unsuspecting people and try to hypnotise them? What do you fellas plan to do if someone is injured while one of your test subjects? It WILL happen. It is only a matter of time. Then what? Anyone ever think of this? Just curious.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (May 5, 2011 02:03PM)
I say, better go do a Strolling Show...

In the guise of Mentalism or whatnot...

Then, they PAY you to do it.

And you'll even have the proper "Authority".
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 5, 2011 04:50PM)
Ive had live training.
Maybe the problem is my limiting belief that one set of live training sessions is not everything thats needed to go out and start doing stage shows?

Like I said, Ive studied books, Ive watched DVDs, Ive had live training, and Im practicing as much as I can.
Im think Im rather careful with regards to health and safety.

If Id done none of that and gone out and started doing street hypnosis, I think criticism would be bucketing down on me from most of the experienced guys here on the forum.

Im not ambushing anyone, Im getting volunteers approaching me.

I get the impression that people think this approach for gaining experience is irresponsible and dangerous. Im not challenging anybody in their views, Im just asking what alternative they propose. And please dont say "live training" (Im of the opinion that live training is the best way to learn) unless of course you have experience of one of these courses and fully believe that the course alone is all you need before pulling off a full blown stage act.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 05:23PM)
A mentor.
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 5, 2011 06:38PM)
I've read many books, viewed at least 50 dvds all on hypnosis, just had live training and successfully hypnotised subjects under guidance. Does this make me a professional hypnotist, absolutely not. It does give me a foundation to go out and learn thru practice.

I have yet to hear any good alternatives for gaining experience. One of the principals of performing hypnosis is absolute confidence, you cannot present yourself as a student needing practice, you have to be The Hypnotist. We need willing subjects, it cannot be a practice session, it always has to be the real deal.

To those critics out there, how would you propose gaining experience, certainly not a stage show before you're ready? We need people from somewhere? where would you suggest?

To answer the question above about what constitutes an experience..........magnetic fingers works for 95% of the public and to most, that is an experience, something most do not expect, I know mentalists that do that as part of their show as a prelude to an effect.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 5, 2011 08:52PM)
Okay let me first address Owen's above post as promised, then some of the others that followed since I'm being asked. This may be long but you asked for it.

[quote]
On 2011-05-05 11:08, Owen Mc Ginty wrote:
"I have no previous stage experience, I think maybe I should clarify a few points.

I have no fascination with going up to strangers in public to hypnotize them, I merely want to improve my technique and acquire experience before progressing to paid gigs."

Then why do it? If street hypnosis is not where you're ultimately heading why bother? Why learn bad techniques and habits that you will more than likely have to change when actually starting to do stage hypnosis? This has, in reality, very few similarities and very little experience as related to stage hypnosis. I can understand wanting to work on your technique and gain live experience but there are other, better and more true to what is stage hypnosis is ways of doing this. (I know you're asking what - more on that in a moment)

"This is exactly the reason I have gone for the strategy of trying to gain something of a reputation in a limited number of bars for being a hypnotist. At present it seems to build response potential, and has achieved my aim of having people approach me instead of asking random strangers if theyd like to be hypnotized. The biggest obstacle I found (after overcoming the fear of failure) was finding subjects to practice with."

While I understand what you are saying as I said there are more direct related means of getting what you are trying to achieve but in the proper vein. You are still doing an informal, unstructured impromptu performance in a bar. And I'm sure with failure, which can ultimately be more damaging to your perception, image and reputation as a hypnotic performer than by utilizing other means more specific to what you are trying to achieve.

"Id love to hear about what helped your newcomer apprentice turn the gig into a $400 event, but Ill understand if you dont want to share the info."

You are correct I prefer not to share this on an open forum. I teach it as part of my coaching and consulting and choose to keep for those using my services. What I will say as to how to gain the experience, is to change you way of thinking in your approach to doing this. Ask yourself "what am I ultimately trying to achieve?" Things like - safely and properly hypnotizing a group on willing volunteers, getting them to the desired levels for the ultimate response to what I'm trying to achieve, selecting good, responsive and animated subjects that will respond as you desire, people that will be good, serious subjects willing to experience hypnosis, creating a pretalk that establishes you, builds trust and positions yourself as you desire, possible testing, and induction that is BOTH effective to what you're trying to achieve AND entertaining to the audience, showcasing the process (I feel very an important element for any great performance - it must be entertaining and fascinating to the audience), a performance set of progressive routines (also called skits by some), possible deepening, your stage personna and presence, the overall flow of your show, what/who is you desired target audience and subjects, etc. I could go on and on. But it all starts with your ability to hypnotize one person first. This is the initial foundation to anything else that follows. After you've hypnotized several people confidently and consistently, then proceed on to a more group dynamic. (the proper live training can help you here)

Once you identified these things then stop and think of a situation that you can create where you can include these elements. Not in a bar, not on the street, this is how magicians do it, not stage hypnotists. You want to control and maintain as many of these elements as possible (leaving room for Mr. Murphy and his laws). The elements in a bar or the streets are ultimately working against you. I have in the past offered at least three ideas and methods for doing exactly what I am talking about. Newbies should also do their own research learn how to use the search function here as many great ideas such as these have been discussed by myself and many other experienced, working stage hypnotists.

"With any luck it will not be long before Im performing paid gigs infront of several hundred people. Im actively seeking gigs whilst gaining experience. I plan to use one bar as a kind of practice ground, and will only do a brief demo in any of the bars I visit looking for gigs."

It has nothing to do with luck. Don't fool yourself, this type of bar stuff rarely if ever leads to a paying gig at the venue. They will perceive you as the guy who just does cool stuff for free or for a few free drinks. This thinking is that of a magician. Again, this discredits you more than anything else. Think for a moment if you were a patron at a bar who wanted to hire a stage hypnotist for your teen graduates graduation party or your company holiday party. Would you want to hire this guy that seems to only have moderate success in an unprofessional or informal setting? Whatever price you set for yourself, others will not see your value if they've been seeing it informally for free. They'll trust their event to a perceived professional performer. It is for this exact reason that if anyone before or following a show asks me to hypnotize them or if I'm doing a mentalism or memory show, to "do one quick thing for me, my answer is always an immediate NO! I am a stage performer, come to the show, or come to the show and volunteer if you're truly interested.

"For me what it boils down to is wanting to become proficient before getting up on stage. I believe that if I get up on stage and am unprepared, it may well show and that this would do more harm to any possible professional future I might have (and to people like yourself who are seasoned pros)."

You are correct that's exactly why you need to gain real stage-related experience with the elements that will be part of your stage show. If you're interest was in becoming a world-class specialist in detailing cars, you wouldn't begin by being a maid or cleaning someone's home or office would you? Yes, on the most basic of surfaces they are both "cleaning" related, but in reality cleaning homes or office and practically nothing to do with detailing cars, so why waste your time? Put you time and efforts into the thing or direction you are trying to obtain. The same is true if you are desiring to be a clinical hypnotherapist. Yes it's hypnosis, and some of the basics are the same, but other than that they are completely different. The vast majority of CHT's that attempt to do a stage show are TERRIBLE! My office hears about this on a daily basis. I can't tell you how many clients rued to hire a CHT last year for their event to be terribly disappointed, only to this year be willing to spend the money on a real stage hypnotist. Yes, they may know hypnosis, but that in no way qualifies then to be a entertaining stage hypnotist.

"As enjoyable as I find the bar sessions, street hypnosis is not what I want to do. Id love to fill theatres, concert halls etc with a stage hypnosis routine and have the cash pouring in. If anyone has any suggestions on how to go about doing this, then Id absolutely love to hear them.

If stage is your goal then pursue stage hypnosis. Don't be confused or misled that street hypnosis is some version of stage hypnosis, it's not. One method that I will offer is to intern, shadow and get involved with a performing stage hypnotist. Trust me you will learn more by doing this than any other means. Get a mentor as Danny and others (including myself) have said before. Once they feel you are ready (and don't rush it) they may be willing to incorporate you into their show by doing a segment of the induction or a performance segment or two. This offers the best of both worlds, gaining fantastic hands-on experience on stage before a real audience with real subjects. Ultimately it will probably lead you to paid bookings from the stage hypnotist or at the least introduce you to contacts that you can utilize when ready. Remember there is sooooo much more to a good stage hypnotist and stage hypnosis show than meets they eye. Once you're in the thick of it, you realize how you're street hypnosis experience has little or nothing to do with it.


Now to address some of the other posts...

Owen said "Ive had live training.
Maybe the problem is my limiting belief that one set of live training sessions is not everything thats needed to go out and start doing stage shows?

Like I said, Ive studied books, Ive watched DVDs, Ive had live training, and Im practicing as much as I can."

Has your training been STAGE HYPNOSIS training? So many of the questions asked here are so easily answered if you've taken actual stage hypnosis training. Perhaps your live training was not that good of a program? Is it the proper training for what you're trying to achieve? Don't cut corners on your training as it is the foundation for all of your success (or failures!)

It seems that many here are saying they're really not interested in street hypnosis but do it for some kind of training and experience. This is something I've always suspected, but I'll add even more to this. I think many are attracted to this because it's a quick way of gaining what "appears" to be hypnosis and it is a cheap alternative to the actual training you're ultimately seeking. It's also very similar to the way magicians learn and do things. I've said it hundreds of times but since many are new here, hypnosis is not a trick or an effect. You must not approach hypnosis as you would magic or mentalism or from a magicians mentality or you are setting yourself up for failure and disappointment.

My advice is to focus your mindset, thoughts and concentration (hypnosis!) and efforts into the things that are stage hypnosis related, but ONLY AFTER you have the foundation to hypnosis down and mastered. Take a clinical hypnosis training first to learn hypnosis. Then take the stage hypnosis training to take the skills, knowledge and experience you have gained to learn how to combine them to create a stage hypnosis show. By doing this you can also have what you need to sell BOR later as part of your show (If you don't know what BOR is don't ask - search and research).

You see if you want to be a stage hypnotist you must approach things and think like a stage hypnotist. You can't achieve what you can't conceive. It's crazy to think that you can just study stage hypnosis quickly and expect to be on stage doing paid gigs. It's a process. A process that requires commitment, patience, education, application and a learning process, which is why most that are seeking a quick fix drop out quickly to never be heard of again. Doing magnetic fingers to a group of passerbys is not hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2011 10:01PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-05 19:38, rpierce wrote:
I've read many books, viewed at least 50 dvds all on hypnosis, just had live training and successfully hypnotised subjects under guidance. Does this make me a professional hypnotist, absolutely not. It does give me a foundation to go out and learn thru practice.

I have yet to hear any good alternatives for gaining experience. One of the principals of performing hypnosis is absolute confidence, you cannot present yourself as a student needing practice, you have to be The Hypnotist. We need willing subjects, it cannot be a practice session, it always has to be the real deal.

To those critics out there, how would you propose gaining experience, certainly not a stage show before you're ready? We need people from somewhere? where would you suggest?

To answer the question above about what constitutes an experience..........magnetic fingers works for 95% of the public and to most, that is an experience, something most do not expect, I know mentalists that do that as part of their show as a prelude to an effect.
[/quote]

Here is why this is a bad plan. If you want to do a show and charge money you need to know a bit about theater. Blocking, stage pictures, rehearsal, practice and the difference in practice and rehearsal. Knowing what the audience sees vs what you are trying to show them, what you are saying vs what they are hearing.

NOT ONE of these things are learned by your method. See you seem to be under a common misconception. A hypnosis show has VERY LITTLE to do with hypnosis! The induction lasts for a few minutes. The show lasts for over an hour. You want to concentrate all your effort on the one part of the show that means the least and quite simply we could do the show WITHOUT IT if we chose.

People have managed to be stage hypnotists for a *** long time prior to the advent of ambushing unsuspecting people along the streets. Why is it suddenly tougher to do the same that has been done for literally HUNDREDS of years?
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 6, 2011 02:28AM)
Mindpro - excellent post.
Thankyou for the advice and thankyou for spending the time to write all of that.
This has given me food for thought and I think I finally have some understanding of where the stage guys are coming from.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 6, 2011 04:33AM)
Street hypnosis is fun. Not everything we do is to earn money. If you've seen The Trilby Connection DVD you'll know it doesn't involve any ambushing. Members of the public are usually very interested (but I guess that's because I'm not an aggressive, arrogant, idiot stage hypnotist) and most are receptive to seeing what their minds can do.

If you prefer the routines on stage (matching trunks in the bath) then that is a matter of taste and style. Don't generalise that all street hypnosis is this or that unless you've done a lot of it yourself.

HK
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 6, 2011 04:59AM)
I find there to be a tremendous amount of irony in the fact that you call others arrogant in a post that makes you sound arrogant.
If you want to do street hypnosis and youre not interested in making money then you are well within your right to do so. But posting in this thread bashing stage hypnotists reeks a bit of you being pi**ed off at a certain scottish stage hypnotist.
I think you may do well not to generalise regarding stage hypnosis shows, unless of course that is, that you have done a lot of them yourself? ;)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2011 06:02AM)
"Kids" post is a great example of the difference between an experienced pro vs. an amateur. Most come here to get help from professionals or those more experienced. Enjoy your little hobby but don't try to present yourself on a level for which you can't compete. This is exactly the mentality and example of what I was referring to, clearly proving my point. What a joke! It's because of guys like this that so many greats that used to participate in this forum refuse to now or have moved on.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 6, 2011 06:21AM)
Safety and insurance are THE most important areas in any professionals remit. They are completely ignored by the street "hypnotist". The title itself is very wrong because these guys are not hypnotists they are cowboys that do not know about the possible risks to the public or choose to ignore them.

If I am upsetting you guys then I consider my posts worthwhile. I really hope I upset you until one day you find yourself in a situation where you have seriously injured someone or find yourself being sued rightly or wrongly and only then you might realise what I am talking about...

Here is the truth peddlars of this crap never mention insurance because it hurts their sales yet a very high profile hypnotist that sells products and tell you online you don't need insurance told me privately he would never dream of doing any public demo without it.

Kid is an idiot hes one of the reasons we have laws and general safety guidelines put together by the home office. Its because of idiots like him we had real problems with stage hypnotists.

An idiot is an idiot no matter where they "perform".

No screening for mental or emotional problems, no insurance, uncontrolled environment, no real training, no safety gudiline knowledge, = no brains.
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 6, 2011 06:33AM)
I too appreciate all the time and effort Mindpro has put into this. I do have a professional mentalism act, and I open for a stage hypnotist. In my extended length showa, which I call 'going to the dark side' I use pseudo hypnosis as a ruse to cover for other effects, basically the 'old witch doctor effect', and it works.

I fully enjoy watching my buddy perform his stage hypnosis, albeit, its not what I want to do. So I have had the opportunity to learn from him. One of my original inspirations into mentalism was Derren Brown, for me, he successfully blended hypnosis and mentalism to the point where I could not be sure. It wasn't until years later of reading the books and watching all those dvds and finally seeing Anthonys material that it started to come together for me. Part of Anthony's material specifically deals with blending hypnosis and mentalism. Attending his training was mind blowing. I consider myself a mentalist, first and foremost, but being able to do this in earnest is one of the powerful tools I've seen. Granted, I have a long way to go, the more you get into this the more you learn you do not know. This could be the ultimate in preshow tools and the audience would never know hypnosis is involved, or the subject for that matter.

There is a principal in mentalism, its not such a bad thing to fail once in awhile, I find it makes my entire act more powerful. It gets the audience rooting for you as opposed to trying to catch you out. Once I did a time prediction, got the minutes and completely missed the hour, in that moment I saw it as a failure but the audience argued that its much harder to get the minutes and it was the most talked about effect I did that evening. The point of that is, I do not see it as a negative for people to see me work at it and maybe fail, I personally find it more impressive to see someone with the b**ls to try it with only one or two. The reality of that is, in the context of a mentalism show, the audience has no idea how far you intend to take it, so whether you get to some real phemonem or not, they have no clue, if you get there, its powerful, if not, nothing is lost, it just appears to be the setting for your next effect.

So I understand some of the arguments here, and they make sense in the context of the traditional stage hypnosis performance, if that's the direction you are pursuing. That is not the direction I am pursuing.
What I saw Anthony accomplish was nothing short of amazing. As a mentalist, I was fascinated and enthralled as I believe my audiences would be as well. I saw him, with no induction, from across the room, stick someone to their chair, how powerful is that? The ultimate mentalist tool.

So no, I do not wish to construct the classic stage hypnosis performance, I want to be the guy who can perform anytime anywhere under any conditions. That is who I have been, hypnosis just takes it over the edge. Impromptu performances help create my reputation, the guy who needs no props and just does these incredible effects at the drop of a hat with nothing. Even though these are not all done on stage, the buzz continues and spreads thru the audience. I did a stage show a few months back and some people in the audience had seen an impromptu performance I did years ago, they were spreading that story all over creating a buzz. I bent a wine glass in a restaurant years ago, I am known for that now and I only did it once. I believe this stuff is more powerful than we know, not just in the moment, but the profound effect it has on those that witness it. So I do not believe that a true hypnotic phemomonem needs to be restricted to the stage, even if my ultmate goal is to incorporate this into my stage performance. I am no expert in hypnosis by any means, I aspire to be, and I will continue reading, studying and seeking more training as opportunity allows, in the meantime, I need to practice.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 6, 2011 06:36AM)
Be careful what you wish for hypnosis just might take it over the edge one day. No matter what you are pushing. Safety screening for mental and emotional problems is a MUST when you work with the public especially in your part of the world where sueing is a national sport.

Look what happened to Homer Simpson.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 07:23AM)
You guys keep mixing whether stage hypnosis is worthwhile or not. Either you want to do it or you don't.

You snap at me about how to do it, about how to go about it without street hypnosis. I give you a perfectly plausable way, and yet it does not fit your need to rant, so you ignore the idea. This is the problem I have with the new phenemenon. You don't want to hear anything that isn't your own opinion.

Also I want to know what you guys are going to do the first time you hurt someone. It WILL happen it is only a matter of time. Got a plan?

You guys are critical of stage hypnosis because you are clueless about it. You have done none of it but read some books or have a friend who does a show or what not. That is not experience. I am not critical of the street hypnotists, I just have questions.
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 6, 2011 08:12AM)
Well, I hope everyone feels better now that we have all vented. There has been some great discussion here. If nothing else, it shows that there are many different perspectives on this and everyones opinion has valid points, albeit everyones perspective seems to have just a tad bit of tunnel vision aimed at their own opinion of how this is supposed to be, sometimes to the exclusion of any differing opinions. I propose that we are not all correct in our thinking and we are not all wrong either, yet we can all learn from each other, and isn't that the point of this forum.

Just to be clear, Anthony's training did an exhaustive segment on health and safety, enough to scare the crap out of me and give me a profound respect for this phenomomen.

Meanwhile, getting back to my original intent of this thread. One thing is abundantly clear, you cannot improve at any discipline without practice. The one recurring issue with aspiring hypnotists, how do I get to practice? Where do I find willing subjects? Friends and family typically are bad choices, people in your professional setting can be a bad idea as well. Hmmm........that seems to leave the rest of the world, the general public as it were. So I am still looking for a group of aspiring hypnotists to get together and figure out a way to accomplish this, to gain the experience and confidence we need, without putting health and safety on the back burner.
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 6, 2011 08:12AM)
I want to do stage hypnosis. I dont intend to snap, if thats how I have come across then I apologise.
Ive spent money on books, DVDs and training - admitedly probably not the best training. The guy who has done my live training doesnt explain himself in a manner that is very conducive to my learning, although he appears to have a kind of natural talent for hypnotizing.

I havent hurt anyone to date, and I take precautions so as not to hurt anyone, i.e. never try things like the falling forwards/backwards test with anyone too big for me to handle, never give the "sleep" command to someone who isnt already sitting down and easy to prop up if they should happen to "rag doll".
Do I have a plan? no, I dont. Ive limited myself to prevention at present.
I dont have insurance, although Im looking into the matter and wouldnt do another stage show without it.

Im not criticising stage work, Im trying to walk the fine line of preparing for stage work whilst remaining safe. I need to practice, I owe that to anyone who puts themselves in my hands on stage. And it appeared to me that it was best to practice with one subject at a time (for safetys sake) before progressing to a group of maybe 10 or 20 people on stage that could potentially be harder to control.

Id be curious to know how some of the pros started, and what they would change if they were to start over again, but with the benefit of hindsight. Questions are good Danny, they keep us learning. Thanks for your input.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 6, 2011 08:41AM)
While learning hypnosis for stage the early shows are always going to involve the highest risks. Although doing hypnosis in the street or on stage will ALWAYS carry risks for certain people who volunteer which means there is always a risk for the hypnotist.

I started out after training. It wasn't the greatest training but it did cover the basics. My first 6- 12 shows were where I really learned how to do shows. And where I made most mistakes. To the point where somebody could've been easily hurt. And I will admit I wasn't insured for thie first couple of shows. But I got insurance quickly after that when I made the money from the first couple of shows. Ironically these were the highest risk shows.

Today its different in that the NO win No FEE culture multiplies the risk of being sued on the grounds of neglegence where insurance and not having a license (in the uk) is a huge baseball bat which any Lawyer would beat you up with should you ever be unlucky enough to find yourself in that position. Its not a question whether you are screwing with the 1952 act its more about whether you can be sued for neglegence should someone decide to based upon being injured or whatever.

I started out like everybody else I did a few uninsured shows. You will always take risks throughout your career. The unexpected happens regularly.

I don't know if I could've changed anything. It was risky I realise that now looking back at the time I wasn't aware of it as much as I am now. Ignorance is bliss so they say...Im not sure now though.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 6, 2011 09:21AM)
So many generalisations, so much emotion. I can't say MP provokes any reaction other than me rolling on the floor holding my sides to prevent them from splitting.

Some stage hypnosis shows are good and some others are poor. Some stage hypnotists shout the odds and make unfair generalisations about street hypnotists, to which I respond in kind.

While bleating on about laws and insurance, MP fails to answer the question over whether his 'impromptu' show on youtube meets the standards to which he expects others to ascribe. It appears to have been conducted in a licensed venue in the UK; it appears to be stage hypnosis and MP appears to believe he is inducing a trance when he hypnotises (as he mentioned in another thread). At what point does the 1952 Hypnotism Act fail to apply and where does insurance stand on a matter like this? If the insurance doesn't apply because the show infringes the 1952 Act then surely the show falls into the dangerous category. Or did MP have a license for the show and purely named it 'impromptu' to gain some of the credibility conferred on those who can do it anywhere, any time?

Note, I haven't made any generalisations over the quality of the training and experience any of you have, nor the quality of any shows or performances that I haven't seen. If you wish to continue to tell me about street hypnosis - something I do which you do not do yourselves, and which most of you seem to believe is different to what you do do - then feel free. You can even call me arrogant if it makes your bells ring.

I have no problem with hypnosis on a stage, although I do think that some of it lacks imagination. I only have a problem with people telling me what I should do based on their own warped assumptions of how I do it. I haven't come here asking basic questions (unless "How does it work?" is a basic question) and I haven't bragged about my abilities or past performances.

Perhaps if everyone chilled out a bit we could have a sensible conversation about it?

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 09:35AM)
Wow I think I should elaborate a bit to clear up some things.

I for one am not really even a fan of most of the training courses offered live! I do not believe they prepare you properly for the stage. I think that quite often they create clones more than they create performers. I am not going to say anything about any course spacifically. But they are by no means the be all and end all. Not by a long shot. Many are offered by guys who can't manage to get work in the fist place!

As to the "how would I start", well I have no idea today. Seriously. I learned magic, and hypnosis from a mentor. Never spent a penny on lessons. BUT I took the long way round the barn mind you. The process is much longer than a few weeks or even months. It is thourogh though. It is a lifetime relationship. I am perfectly aware this is NOT the way it can work for everyone. It IS the way a huge percentage of guys did it back in the day.

As for many stage shows are bad, well let me just say this. I get literally dozzens of DVD's a week from guys looking for work. As a rule there are FAR more that are well below par than are of any real quality. But it has always been so and will always be so. Getting any form of training is no measure of what will or will not be a successful, or quality show. Starting out as a street hypnotist does not mean you will be good or bad, it only means this is the road that this particular person has chosen.

I don't have any particular inclination to tell anyone about street hypnosis. If that is what you want to do hey go for it. (Incidently you do come off as arrogant, with very little experience to back it up.) I do not think it helps anyone in the least learn about actual stage hypnosis. I think that nobody really considers enough about "safe" when they do stage hypnosis, much less the street stuff. But that is an opinion.

It is what it is. No less, but certainly no more.
Message: Posted by: Deepintrance (May 6, 2011 11:46AM)
Here's a quicky question?
How many Stage Hypnotists would be capable of successfully hypnotising people they have just met??? That is ....WITHOUT the stage set-up, WITHOUT all the pre-show advertising, WITHOUT the expectation produced by various music tracks and special lighting and WITHOUT the row of empty chairs waiting expectantly on the empty stage??????
I have met a few stage hypnotists who would be scared sh*tless to try to do what the "Street" hypnotists can do.
The Stage work is SO much easier......most subjects are already in trance before the show begins. That's the whole point of the advertising etc:...draw in the most receptive people to the show.
I'm NOT knocking the Stage Hypnotists;they have to have talent to produce a good flowing show.
I'm just pointing out that we all have different skills.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 6, 2011 11:54AM)
To a good stage hypnotist it shouldn't matter. All of the things you mentioned just enhance the talent and ability already present. I have hypnotized people on the spot I've never met and even hypnotized people by television satellite two thousand miles away. They had no idea it was going to happen, they just thought they were going to be audience members at a live t.v. show. No music, no pretalk, no pre-qualifying, etc.

They may be a bit out of their comfort zone as to many stage hypnotists those elements are part of their show. But many of us have been at a festival or on a cruise ship and were asked to go on unexpectedly or unplanned and still have dome just fine. However I do also agree with you as I have seen a new breed of stage hypnotist emerge over the past decade or fifteen years that seem to be able to only exist within the confines of their own show. If presented with other circumstances they would sh** their pants. This also seems to be common for the DJ or magician turned "stage hypnotist".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 05:15PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-06 12:46, Deepintrance wrote:
Here's a quicky question?
How many Stage Hypnotists would be capable of successfully hypnotising people they have just met??? That is ....WITHOUT the stage set-up, WITHOUT all the pre-show advertising, WITHOUT the expectation produced by various music tracks and special lighting and WITHOUT the row of empty chairs waiting expectantly on the empty stage??????
I have met a few stage hypnotists who would be scared sh*tless to try to do what the "Street" hypnotists can do.
The Stage work is SO much easier......most subjects are already in trance before the show begins. That's the whole point of the advertising etc:...draw in the most receptive people to the show.
I'm NOT knocking the Stage Hypnotists;they have to have talent to produce a good flowing show.
I'm just pointing out that we all have different skills.
[/quote]

I have never seen anyone "scared" to do it, just people who have found it absolutely pointless. I could easily do it, I just have no need to.

I am not saying anything about anything, just that self delusion is alos a skill.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 6, 2011 05:57PM)
Now before I get misinturpreted let me clarify that last sentence. I mean that I have seen MANY bad hypnosis shows where it is just a guy trying to convince himself that someone was in trance, or that the show was good or what not. I have also seen many street guys doing the same thing. They delude themselves into thinking that this or that happened. It comes to look like mentalists looking for "hits" or what not. I am not taking shots at street hypnotists only here.

Bottom line is that a bad hypnotist on the street or a bad hypnotist on the stage is simply a bad hypnotist.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 7, 2011 04:50AM)
That has to be the worst thing about street hypnotists. The delusion that they are actually better than pros that have been doing it for decades. Its that delusion that will prevent them from becoming really skilled and educated hypnotists.

I agree with Danny except Ive NEVER seen a good hypnotist that performs on the street. Show me one clip. Ive been waiting for years now it still hasn't happened. The very best I have seen is a pale imitation of a very old worn out stage skit that personally I would never do because it is so old and over used. But even that was a pale version.

The reason why the street phenomena exists is because it IS EASY. And it appeals to attention seekers who do not want to put in the time and resources to learn proper hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 7, 2011 06:00AM)
And here we go again. First, many thanks to Danny and Mindpro for taking the higher ground. I do appreciate your opinions and agree that there are bad hypnotists on the street, just as there are bad hypnotists on stage and in clinics. Equally there are good hypnotists in those categories too.

MP, do you not rate Paul McKenna or Peter Powers? They are possibly the most famous hypnotists who have performed on the street.

MP, please tell us how impromptu your impromptu show was. Given your interest in the illegal and dangerous, it would help me to understand whether you practice what you preach.

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 7, 2011 09:47AM)
I have personally never seen a street hypnotist I enjoyed. Though by the same token to be fair, I have never seen an opera I have enjoyed. I will say though I have never had an opera forced upon me LOL.

To be serious I know the difference in what I enjoy and the rest of the world.

I do believe that many of the street guys, (especially the new ones) are under the delusion that they are as experienced or know a much as someone who has been working for decades. This I attribute more to youth, than blame on the phenemenon. Kids come along all the time in hypnosis, learn to put people in trance, get one or two shows and suddenly are experts. It has nothing to do with street hypnosis, it is more that street hypnosis attracts so many kids. But with that attitude and excitement and all that, comes also a youthful energy which is good.

All the time kids come along who are going to change the industry, or think they have figured out something we havn't managed to consider. Cool. It is good for growth.

I know from where I sit in America, hypnosis shows are one of the most popular forms of variety entertainment on college campi. They are in Las Vegas, and other destination cities. Comedy clubs use them regularly. Every few years the market gets saturated and the new group of magicians, mentalists, comedians and Dj's come along because they have watched hypnotists get higher fees for years and say to themselves "hmmm I could do that!". They take a weekend course, get some marketing materials, make a LOT of BS claims and try to get involved. The fact remains that they were terrible at what they did and they end up being terrible hypnotists and they don't last.

It is a cycle. The streety hypnosis thing does not really going to harm a good hypnotist in America.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 7, 2011 10:42AM)
I like that..am ambush opera! Danny makes some good points. Fortunately for both Danny and I we have been in the business long enough and are also in a capacity where since we book other entertainers including stage hypnotists, we regularly receive promo and get solicited by every newbie, magician or DJ turned hypnotist, and every recent graduate from a weekend seminar that has them somehow believing the are ready to hit the stage and perform as a stage hypnotist (when 72 hours before they knew nothing other than having an interest). They send us their promo and demo for booking consideration. This allows us to see the good bad and the ugly. It also allows us to see the far-fetched, **** and vinegar mentality and BS claims that they use to try to put them on the level with experienced working pros. I've actually used some of these terrible performance footage demos to show those that I tutor, mentor, and consult to show what NOT to do, and how things should not be done. One year one of our production guys even edited together the best of the worst and showed it at our Christmas Party (I wish I had a copy of that now). We are also in the fortunate position to hear back from the clients, the buyers, and the venues. They do not hesitate to tell us what they like, what they felt and the feedback they received. Many entertainers, especially newbies only think from their own perspectives, not the ones that matter - they buyer/client and the audience.

The street hypnosis fad that is popular now seems to be more popular in the Europe, than here in the states, but it does still exist. I've questioned why this is and my feeling is that it has much to do with skating around the laws over there. Even here in Vegas street hypnosis is not that common and not very welcome. We had a wave of it when Criss Angel included some well-edited things in his t.v. show, but in reality Las Vegas is extremely picky, selective and very hard to do anything on the street. It works against the premise of the town - get them inside to spend money. It's so expensive to legally attempt something like that it literally stops 98% of anyone from even attempting it.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 7, 2011 11:59AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-06 18:15, Dannydoyle wrote:

I have never seen anyone [stage hypnotists] "scared" to do it [street hypnosis], just people who have found it absolutely pointless. I could easily do it, I just have no need to.
[/quote]

I agree. I have met many stage hypnotists and I have no doubt if when asked if they could do street hypnosis, their response would be, "Sure, but why should I?"

I took a specialized training in street hypnosis. We went out to the streets to do it as part of the training. The only "special skills" involved are having the wisdom to choose the most likely person to be hypnotized and the courage to go up to someone you don't know, introduce yourself, obtain permission, and hypnotize them.

The hypnosis skill set between stage and street is the same. It's the level of extroversion and comfort with self-introduction that is different.

As we reached the end of the training I realized, however, something important and asked the trainer a question: "How do you monetize street hypnosis?" How does a professional performer make money by sticking someone's had to a trash can in front of a group of a dozen people, maybe less? The answer, of course, is that you don't monetize street hypnosis.

You MIGHT use it for publicity. As was pointed out to me here, it could allow you to be invited to a large garden party to walk around performing.

So if there's no money in it, and if you're not helping people (hypnotherapy), and if you don't have a show you're publicizing, what's the point? And that, I believe, is the question those who exclusively perform street hypnotists really don't want to consider. Because the only answers I've heard consist of things like "because I can," "because it's cool," etc. These, IMO, are superficial answers at best. The truth is that it goes back to childhood feelings of inferiority and gives wimps a chance to say, "I can control you," "I have power," when, in fact, they remain powerless.

It's like the older brother grabbing a younger brother's arm, shoving it repeatedly into the younger brother's face, and saying, "Why are you hitting yourself? You shouldn't do that. Stop hitting yourself. Why are you hitting yourself?"

So if you get your yarbles excited by sticking someone's hand to a trash can instead of pulling down their pants in public, if your turn-on is making someone stand like a statue instead of giving them a swirly in the loo, just remember that you're not revealing your power over others, you're exposing your own feelings of inferiority and weakness.

In spite of this, I have nothing against street hypnosis per se. If someone wants to do it I hope that it will eventually give them the strength of character to grow up and become self-actualizing rather than remain infantile. Further, I hope that the skills they develop can be translated to interests of really learning stage hypnosis or hypnotherapy in the future.

Didn't you see (or read) "Spider-Man?" Remember? "With great power comes great responsibility." The ability to hypnotize is a great power. Is sticking someone's hand to a light pole really showing responsibility on your part? Really?
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 7, 2011 05:02PM)
Wow - that hurt

For me, this began because I need to expand my mentalism show to a full length evening without a second act. I have been opening for a stage hypnotist. I have always been intrigued by hypnosis and I have many ideas for blending the two disciplines, not the tradtional stage hypnosis show. I have been introducing hypnosis into my shows as a prelude to an effect, pushing the limit each time, but this is a painfully long process.

I personally find approaching people on the street extremely uncomfortable, yet, at 54, I do not have decades to prepare. I have become proficient at many different disciplines in my life, and they all required competent training and repetitve practice. At some point we all need people to practice with. I actually began studying hyponsis 3 years ago and the recurring problem has always been finding people to practice with. I do not believe I am alone with this problem.

I enjoy street hypnotists, I personally find it highly entertaining and courageous. And as uncomfortable as it makes me feel to consider this, I cannot think of any other way to become proficient and confident with my abilities before attempting it on stage.

When we were in Union Square in NYC during Anthony's Headhacking, there was a goofy looking guy there with a chair and a sign that said, FREE ADVICE ON SEX AND DATING, and he had a line of people waiting. Now, if this guy can attract a crowd, how difficult would it be to attract hypnosis volunteers with a sign. At least this way you are not assaulting people, they are coming to you, willingly, and curious. If the truth be told, in Union Square, only about half of our group approached anyone, I was not among them, hence the idea of the sign.

There was a comment early that there was no money in it. Everything in the world is not all about money. I have spent years performing for charities just because I enjoy doing it and entertaining people, its only recently that people started offering me money to perform. I see hypnosis as a skill to be mastered, if it turns into making money, great, in the meantime, its about creating memorable experiences for people and having fun doing it, I could care less about the money.

Bottom line - I am hungry for experience
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 7, 2011 05:28PM)
Danny said

>>>I do believe that many of the street guys, (especially the new ones) are under the delusion that they are as experienced or know a much as someone who has been working for decades. This I attribute more to youth, than blame on the phenemenon.<<<<

Im not so sure I think the phenomena attracts kids because of the ease of getting cheap dvds and not having to do put any real effort or resources into learning real skills. When you start off in stage work yu need to be good enough that someone will pay you almost off bat. I think I did two free shows then all my shows after were paid and above the average hypnotists rates at the time. That pressure ensures you learn how to do shows fast.

Mindpro said
>>>The street hypnosis fad that is popular now seems to be more popular in the Europe, than here in the states, but it does still exist. I've questioned why this is and my feeling is that it has much to do with skating around the laws over there.<<<

Actually it has nothing to do with the laws since professional hypnotists mostly abide by the laws if they want to perform in lucrative venues. And they tend to be high profile. Street hypnotists are badly skilled attention seekers that do it for the thrill nothing else. They tend to be wannabee Derren Brown clones. Derren made the handshake induction popular on his early tv shows which in turn created a new market for all the wannabees. And of course that market was quickly serviced by a few peddlars. Derren Brown is the real reason behind the popularity.

Milky Bar Kid says
>>>>MP, do you not rate Paul McKenna or Peter Powers? They are possibly the most famous hypnotists who have performed on the street.<<<

Actually you are totally wrong. Both Powers and Mckenna perform on TV they do not perform on the street although Powers had a TV series filmed in the street it was a TV production which he was paid a lot of money for and was syndicated. I knew a sound egineer that worked on one of his tv series. He told me each episode took about 8 hours to film a 30 min programme where it took hours to select the right hypnotees and make them ready for the camera. They were anything but impromtu or street shows. Neither did either of them do it for free with no insurance etc etc, They had a whole production team behind them. Even so I thought they were totally boring annd didn't work although I rate Peter Powers stage show highly. Ive never seen Mckenna's live show.


Pierce said
>>>>There was a comment early that there was no money in it. Everything in the world is not all about money. I have spent years performing for charities just because I enjoy doing it and entertaining people,<<<<

Then if you are hungry for experience get REAL experience train with the right people and offer real shows in proper conditions for fundraiser charity events. Seems to me you have plenty of contacts and could be booked solid if you so wish. I really think the current direction you are taking will actually hold you back rather put you forward. Do real shows from day one.

It seems to me that the whole street thing developed from TV productions that were filmed in the street and were never "street performances". There really is a difference. Most street performers are wannabees while the "original" TV productions were anything but impromtu and highly paid.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 7, 2011 08:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-07 18:02, rpierce wrote:
as uncomfortable as it makes me feel to consider this, I cannot think of any other way to become proficient and confident with my abilities before attempting it on stage.

When we were in Union Square in NYC during Anthony's Headhacking, there was a goofy looking guy there with a chair and a sign that said, FREE ADVICE ON SEX AND DATING, and he had a line of people waiting. Now, if this guy can attract a crowd, how difficult would it be to attract hypnosis volunteers with a sign. At least this way you are not assaulting people, they are coming to you, willingly, and curious. If the truth be told, in Union Square, only about half of our group approached anyone, I was not among them, hence the idea of the sign.

Bottom line - I am hungry for experience
[/quote]

I have been very excited for rpierce and following his interests and exploits and quite encourage his efforts and approach, but disagree on two of his perspectives. But still encourage him and believe he has what it takes to be a great mentalist and/or hypnotist. But these two areas just jump out at me:

1.) my pet peeve is when magicians or mentalists use hypnosis as a premise, backstory or theme for a magic or mentalism effect. This sends the wrong point and perspective to an audience, and often contributes to the misconceptions of hypnosis, which as most performing stage hypnotists know, we spend most of our time dealing with, re-educating and trying to overcome these misconceptions each and every time we step on stage, as well as before and after each performance. Now I understand why it is such a great concept for a presentational foundation, as most people do not understand hypnosis and the mystery that surrounds it, so it can be an ideal premise, but it never seems to be presented in the proper way and usually just adds to the misconception and misinformation that the general public has towards hypnosis.

Secoidly, it never too late at any age to learn stage hypnosis. I think being over 50 can add a certain credability to an adult audience that isn't as easy with younger stage hypnotists. In every single training I've ever taken or have been booked to speak at or participate in there are many over 50 people in attendance.

Here is my thought(s) every time I read rpierce's posts: Why are you putting yourself in such a situation where your perception is similar to the guy offering free sex and dating advice, with or without a sign? These people are often perceived at the very least as odd, strange or if noting else unprofessional, Many believe they are quacks or scammers. Why create that perception when you have seem to taken the high road in so many of your thoughts, perceptions, and approach towards mentalism, becoming a pro performer and now with hypnosis? It seems so against what I feel I learned about your and values. Why create the extra anxiety of being on the streets, not be improperly perceived, talking to strangers, attempting hypnosis is a very unfriendly and unbeneficial hypnotic environment? This just very surprises me.

You are in such a great place as you don't need to do it for the money, and based on your posts and our exchanges you want to do things properly and right. You aren't the tennybopper full of **** and vinegar that just saw a stage hypnotist at school or on youtube and just thought it was "he coolest sh** I've ever seen, and I've just got to learn to do this NOW!"

PLUS, you have such a great, valuable resource for stage hypnosis right at your finger tips! You have to know about the hypnotist you've been working with, and his father, who specialize in utilizing this great resource, but then I see you spending the time, effort and money on all this street stuff and wonder why? It seems you are taking several steps back and in a direction away from where you are trying to go.

You see many people take live stage hypnosis training and walk away from it and will never do anything with it other than perhaps a very mild initial attempt to apply what they've learned. You though, based on what we know of you, would be the prime candidate for this type of training. You would walk away from this just steps away from being able to begin attempting to perform stage hypnosis. They contact me every year to come and be a guests or speak at their live training events. To perform or to present my lecture on the business side of stage hypnosis. One of these events is coming up and if you ever decide to come (there here in Las Vegas) if I am in town, I would be happy to have lunch with you or meet with you and talk shop. This type of learning environment would be soooo beneficial to you, surround you with others specifically interested in stage hypnosis and plenty of opportunity to practice on individuals as well as groups. You could even participate in the student show at the end if you feel confident enough.

My point is many of these newbies will never make it for many reasons - lack of commitment, using street hypnosis to somehow think it will teach them what they need to know to be a hypnotist and be a stage performer, lack of belief in themselves, etc. You have proven your intentions are proper and you have what it takes for the commitment and to succeed. Use the resources available to you and concentrate on the area that you are interested in rather than taking a side door approach to stage hypnosis. If you're going to learn stage hypnosis learn it directly and right.

I'm sure you picked up many things that will be beneficial from Anthony's training. That coupled with your eagerness and even heightened commitment you're expressing coming out of Anthony's training should now take you to this next step.

By the way I do not get anything for mentioning the stage hypnosis training I suggested above, as in reality there are several stage hypnosis training here in town that I would recommend, but I only suggested the one above because I believe you've worked with the stage hypnotist, they are in your own backyard, and they have been probably doing longer than almost anyone else here in the states. It just seems wild to me that you are not using this resource and keep mentioning how you don't have the resources to learn and practice when in reality you do, more easily accessible that most others here on this forum.

I hope this helps as my intentions are only the best. I in no way mean to offend you or your desire to learn and move forward with stage hypnosis.

Sorry if there are some misspelled words here but I'm doing this quick as I'm backstage ready to do my first of two shows tonight, have a pumped up audience of just over 1200 people ready to go, and am hurrying to get this out of my head. Best of luck!
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 7, 2011 09:32PM)
Mindpro - PM'd you
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 7, 2011 10:49PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-07 18:02, rpierce wrote:
Wow - that hurt

For me, this began because I need to expand my mentalism show to a full length evening without a second act....[/quote]

So how did you intend to introduce street hypnosis into your act?

[quote]I personally find approaching people on the street extremely uncomfortable, yet, at 54, I do not have decades to prepare. I have become proficient at many different disciplines in my life, and they all required competent training and repetitve practice. At some point we all need people to practice with. I actually began studying hyponsis 3 years ago and the recurring problem has always been finding people to practice with. I do not believe I am alone with this problem. [/quote]

I agree with you. Of people with fears, the biggest fear of all is public speaking--it's even a bigger fear than dying. When people perform on stage, they often have a persona, so it's not really the person who is performing, it is THE PERSON. Same name, but a different person. It's easy for that other person to be open and speak in public.

But when you are learning a new skill, you don't have that persona developed. It's just you trying to remember all of those techniques. In my experience, for most people it is quite difficult to simply go out on the street and try to say hello to a stranger. It's even more difficult saying hello and then hypnotizing that stranger! I want to assure you that you're not alone.

With magic and much of mentalism you can practice by yourself. You can videotape yourself. My friend, Jeff McBride, has his own small theater with three-way mirrors so he can see himself and invite people in to watch him perform. But the fact is, you can practice French Drops and Square Circles all by yourself. You can practice add-a-number all by yourself. You can study ABOUT hypnosis and you can practice the moves of hypnosis, but you simply cannot practice hypnosis by yourself. It's a minimum two-person skill.

You say you began studying hypnosis 3 years ago. I began studying decades ago. It was only many years later that I actually began practicing regularly with others. And that began when I took formal training. You are absolutely correct when you wrote, "the recurring problem has always been finding people to practice [hypnosis] with. I do not believe I am alone with this problem." You're not alone. And there's an easy way to resolve it: TAKE A TRAINING.

I have consistently written that once you have taken a real, in-person training, books and videos will enhance what you learned. I do not believe that a person needs to spend thousands of dollar and months in training to become a good hypnotist. A week here and there or a few weekends in training can give you plenty of beginning experience. When this is complemented with book and video study a person can quickly become competent enough to become good hypnotist.

Good actors spend years in training honing their craft. Good doctors spend years in study and practice to become physicians. Good plumbers spend years studying under the guidance of others before they become licensed. What makes anyone think being a hypnotists is easy? Is it because you see a performer put on a show and he or she makes it look easy? A juggler makes his or her craft look easy, too. Here are three balls...can you read a book and be entertaining with them? Some people can. Most people can't. But most people, with practice, guidance, and training can become actors, doctors, plumbers, jugglers, or hypnotists.

[quote]I enjoy street hypnotists, I personally find it highly entertaining and courageous. And as uncomfortable as it makes me feel to consider this, I cannot think of any other way to become proficient and confident with my abilities before attempting it on stage.[/quote]

I feel the same way. So if you want to learn street hypnosis NOT to be a hypnotist, but to overcome your lake of comfort in approaching new people, fantastic! If your comfort level in being before others grows as a result of learning and doing street hypnosis, that's great, too.

But respectfully, don't confuse personal development with stage entertainment. They're not the same. Both have value, they're just not interchangeable.

[quote]When we were in Union Square in NYC during Anthony's Headhacking, there was a goofy looking guy there with a chair and a sign that said, FREE ADVICE ON SEX AND DATING, and he had a line of people waiting. Now, if this guy can attract a crowd, how difficult would it be to attract hypnosis volunteers with a sign. At least this way you are not assaulting people, they are coming to you, willingly, and curious. If the truth be told, in Union Square, only about half of our group approached anyone, I was not among them, hence the idea of the sign.[/quote]

This was pretty much the same with the training I took. But do you see the difference? The guy with the sign didn't approach anyone--they approached him. He had a gimmick. In my training, the most successful ones were using David Blaine-style come-ons "Come here. Let me show you something. Look. Look. Look. Look." They literally let people become comfortable and familiar with them while they were becoming comfortable and familiar with the audience. Then they went into the street hypnosis.

But do you notice how this is sort of a "cheat?" They weren't really going up to people and hypnotizing them. I had to break down my own issues and just introduce myself and go into the street hypnosis. I had far more failures than successes. However, I think the people with the "cheat" weren't really doing "pure" street hypnosis (for lack of a better term). Nothing wrong with that, of course, but it wasn't what I was trying to learn and practice.

BTW, we did practice within the group before going out on the street.

[quote]There was a comment early that there was no money in it. Everything in the world is not all about money. I have spent years performing for charities just because I enjoy doing it and entertaining people, its only recently that people started offering me money to perform. I see hypnosis as a skill to be mastered, if it turns into making money, great, in the meantime, its about creating memorable experiences for people and having fun doing it, I could care less about the money.

Bottom line - I am hungry for experience
[/quote]

My comment was how do you monetize it. You're right, it's not all about the money. However, when you perform for charities (as I have), they get value and you get value. The term "monetize" is simply a way of figuring out the value of what you are doing. If you prefer, you can use Bentham's "utils" instead of "money" as a way of determining value.

Respectfully, in what you're describing, you're saying that you're looking for self-therapy and development. The entertainment value is what is irrelevant. You seem to be saying you don't care about the hypnosis and you don't care that you will never put street hypnosis into your act. Fair enough. If getting feelings of superiority and overcoming phobias by sticking people's hands to trashcans floats your boat, more power to you! It's certainly a lot cheaper than therapy.

The bottom line, as you put it, is that you're hungry for PERSONAL experience. You're hungry to change YOUR life. And you're willing to use others in order to get this. At least that's honest.

Still, I contend that there is no way to introduce street hypnosis into a stage hypnosis act. But I could be wrong. Perhaps you or someone else could explain how, in a theater with 500 people, a street hypnotist could go in, zap arms out of sockets, and be considered an entertainment because you were able to stick a few hands to trash bins. I have to admit I can't see it.

So I would love to hear from any street hypnotist. How do you perform street hypnosis in front of a 500-person auditorium and earn a living?
For those who do stage and street hypnosis: what percentage of your act--and for which you get paid--is exclusively street hypnosis?

So far, RPierce is one of the few really honest persons who has talked about street hypnosis and revealed the truth: it's about him and his issues. It's not about making a living or being entertaining per se.

By the way, I admire you for your honesty and openness in what you posted here. If more people were as honest as you there would be a lot fewer people talking about how wonderful street hypnosis is and more admitting that it's wonderful for themselves and dealing with their issues.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 8, 2011 03:36AM)
I too was wondering that if you already have an existing Mentalism show/act, then why not go the 'Manchurian Approach' route and just add it slowly into your act?

In a nutshell: Have a foolproof piece of mentalism and pretend that it requires that the subject is hypnotised to make it work. If successful and the right candidate you can spend more time on the hypnosis part and still have an ending to the mentalism effect. It's a no fail approach where it doesn't matter if you do hypnotise them, don't hypnotise them or whether they think they were hypnotised or not, it all works out and looks good.

While doing that, you are practising what you have already learnt. Plus you know how to approach people to show them mentalism so why reinvent the wheel?

Your goal is to integrate hypnosis into your mentalist act, so why not just do exactly that?

Personally I found it the easiest way to go than just approaching people cold and asking if they wanted to be hypnotised. (Well for me at least) : Start Mentalism effect: Hypnotise: Going well? Then continue and make that the main part: Or not going as well as hoped? Then cut short at any time: Finish Mentalism effect with a guaranteed result every time. Even if you are having a bad day with the wrong person at the wrong time in the wrong place and have a total lack of anything happening, the effect still ends as it should with a guaranteed outcome.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 8, 2011 04:57AM)
I take a little exception at the idea that Street Hypnosis is for people who have problems that they are trying to sort out.

Now to me, hypnosis is hypnosis, only the presentation differs. With traditional Stage Hypnosis you are going to have all the trimmings and melodrama of a stage act, but were there is nothing at all wrong with that, it is very limited to a place with a stage. (Or at least any area suitable to set out as a stage, even if it's not an elevated platform.) Stage Hypnosis is also dependant on your own personal style. If you want to present your hypnosis like that and want a stage set drama, then that is the way to go and the best of luck.

However, if you want to perform in places that don't have a stage (Bars, Cafs, etc)(It doesn't have to be out on the actual street to be street hypnosis) then a different style and approach is needed and wanted.

Also different 'skits' lend themselves to different situations, so putting down 'Street hypnosis' as only sticking people's hands to things, really does sound just like a talking down to Street Hypnotists to form Stage hypnotists.

It really is like Ballroom dancing (requires a dancefloor) and Street Dancing that can be done anywhere. They are all dancing and some may like one and hate the other, but there is room for both for anyone to take their pick. And exactly the same as a magic show where one style is a full illusion show done on stage and a strolling entertainer at a function. One is not going to produce a tiger and the other is not going to do a personal close-up effect; but both are (hopefully) entertaining magicians.

I also dislike this constant abuse of the word 'ambushing' as a blanket cover to again talk down to Street hypnotists. Whilst there are bad hypnotists in both Stage and Street, we shouldn't use them to abuse everyone. As an example, their are still some Stage hypnotists who are getting people to have fake sex with inflatable animals and balancing people on backs of chairs, but that doesn't mean ALL stage hypnotists are boring, offensive and dangerous. If you are in a bar, caf, etc and you are (as you should) asking people if they wish to be hypnotised and only preceding if they agree, then that is not 'ambushing' anyone. It's merely doing (sometimes impromptu sometimes arranged) hypnosis in an informal setting. And in such a setting, skits that are designed for a stage are either not suitable or are impossible. (As a point of safety; people jumping around in a confined space is usually not a good thing, but conversely they have no stage to fall off! So it's always appropriate to adjust your show for safety as well as practicality.)

I'm actually somewhere in the middle as I normally add hypnosis to my mentalism act. My mentalism act can and is done both on stage and in very informal settings and so my hypnotism follows whatever setting I'm performing in.

So I wish we could all get away from this idea that Stage Hypnotism is superior and anyone doing Street hypnosis is inferior and dangerous as it just doesn't address reality at all. (As far as I know, no one has died from having their hand stuck to a table!)
Message: Posted by: rpierce (May 8, 2011 08:01AM)
Well.....so much to address, so little time

I think my biggest mistake here was being totally unaware that Street Hypnosis offended traditional Stage Hypnotists, I was truly clueless on this point. I have read all the posts and I have a much better appreciation for the arguments presented.

I may have given the wrong impression here, my fascination with street hypnosis is not any need for personal development or therapy. I'm 54, I retired at 48, I had a good ride, I now perform professionally, shyness is not something I am impaired by. Admitedly, I am uncomfortable approaching strangers on the street to perform, which is quite different from public speaking or my mentalism show. While I admire those that can do this, I have no great desire to be one of them. Even with my mentalism, I prefer to be asked as opposed to ramming it down someone's throat. Hence, the idea of the sign. I know exactly who I am, my strengths and weaknesses and at 54, I am comfortable with that and have no need to be anything else.

That said, I am just looking for practice, a steady stream of willing volunteers. I have had training, and I can always use more. The training taught me that I can do this, now I need experience before taking it to the stage. The stage hypnotist that I open for offers training as well, yet he tells me that it does not involve actual experience doing this. The thought of taking stage hypnosis training(expensive) and not actually doing it baffles me. Anthony's training on the other hand, was all about actually doing it. So when the opportunity arose to take his training I jumped on it.

Of all the books and dvds on hypnosis that I have studied, the one that jumped out at me was Anthony's Manchurian Approach. This series specifically deals with Hypnosis for magicians and/or mentalists. It was the first material that has appealed to me. Yes, it deals with impromptu hypnosis, and/or street hypnosis, that is not what attracted me, it was how it blended the discipline with mentalism. The street hypnosis, at least for me, was a means to an end. One of life's hard lessons is that sometimes, you have to do whats really uncomfortable to get where you need to be.

When I finally pull this all together, I hope to have my mentalism act that slowly blends hypnosis into my effects, clearly a work in progress, so don't ask me how I plan to do this yet. I have seen Anthony do this and the effect on the audience is stunning.

It was mentioned above that traditional stage hypnotists did not appreciate mentalist or magicians from using hypnosis as an explanation for their effects, that it hurts their profession and they have to reeducate their audiences. Well, I understand that argument, but it happens to be in direct conflict with mentalism. Most of us claim to not be psychics. The effects appear to be the result of suggestion, NLP or some kind of pyschological illusion, or the result of hypnosis. All designed to misdirect the audience and confuse the method. I appreciate the argument, it is the first time I ever heard it, and at the same time, its what we do and have done for quite some time. I do not know the answer to that one. I try to respect everyone's point of view.

This will all unfold, great points raised here, hopefully we all learned something
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 8, 2011 08:39AM)
To be honest I think mentalists that claim to be NLP experts are lazy clones that need a better premise. NLP does have a place in the world and some of the more skilled practitioners spend years honing their skills which are valuable in a number of contexts.

They are much more skilled than magicians pretending to be mind readers and I think its a real shame that the public are misguided and lied to in this way. Apart from that I also think its totally unnecessary. You can be a "Mind reader" without reffering to NLP. Most of the public still don't even know what it is.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 8, 2011 02:42PM)
Your own thumper product is chock full of presentations where you claim to read body language. How is this any different?

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 8, 2011 07:27PM)
I simply do not believe the skills necessary to perfect (or even learn proficiently) a stage hypnosis show can be learned ambushing people on the street. No more than you could learn to do an illusion show by attempting to do "Street Magic" ala David Blaine.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 8, 2011 07:41PM)
But that is only stagecraft or staging and can be an almost inborn thing picked up from watching all sorts of stage acts or can be learnt at a theatrical class.

After learning the hypnosis and personal interaction with the subjects, a stage act can be put together and tested before it goes on the road and staging changed until works. And works for you (we don't all want to be clones of the mentor do we?)

And of course that only applies if you want to do a stage act.

I see the abuse of the words 'ambushing people' is back. Provided people are asked first and agree, then no 'ambushing' is taking place.

P.S. I have seen many an illusion act that knew nothing about stagecraft and it showed!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 8, 2011 08:48PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 20:41, Shrubsole wrote:
I see the abuse of the words 'ambushing people' is back. Provided people are asked first and agree, then no 'ambushing' is taking place.

The fact that people are approached unexpectedly and uninvitingly is still ambushing whether they agree or not. Their decision to agree or disagree comes only after the ambush. This is the basic approach for all street and impromptu hypnosis. Then to make matters worse many will not even mention the use of hypnosis or ask permission to use hypnosis).

I also disagree with your perception of stage hypnosis based on your description in the above post. There is so much more to a professional stage hypnosis show than the hypnosis and understanding stagecraft. Those are the primary basics only.
Message: Posted by: Shikina (May 9, 2011 02:45AM)
Having just familiarized myself with this entire thread, I must say, there is a surprisingly large number of 'regulars' here who seem to have a very low opinion of magic, and magical presentations which involve hypnosis. I have a feeling I'm not the first person who has ever noticed or commented on this phenomena, but it does seem strange that so many people would take offense to the encroaching dangers of magicians, on a forum for magicians.

So in case it's not abundantly clear from that opening remark, I am a magician by association who's attended one of Anthony's training sessions. I found it to be informative, inspiring, and respectful towards the entire field of hypnosis. Safety considerations were not glossed over, the way many seem to presume, but rather discussed at length, and the opinion was expressed by multiple attendees and panelists that insurance is a must for any serious performer. Perhaps it's because I might never have discovered hypnosis were it not for the street movement, but I commend Anthony on having the awareness, and business savvy, to cater to magicians who had been exposed to Derren Brown and wanted to capture some of that essence in their own work. Clearly, his efforts offend a lot of people here but, to my mind it was inevitable that something like this would happen given the convergence of street magic, and the growing influence of people like Mr. Brown. True, many of the people that come into hypnosis this way will drop-off and lose interest. But many others won't. And I would hazard the guess that they will be no more, nor less, clone-like than anybody who takes a training course in a field in which they are new. Some of them may yet turn out to be innovators in the field, shocking as that may sound.

Personally, I make no apologies for being drawn to street hypnosis. I have no interest in stage hypnotism and, even with my limited frame of experience, I don't believe the notion that stage hypnosis is the only valid entertainment-based approach to this field. That said, I don't doubt the craft of stage performers, and certainly don't dismiss the tremendous wisdom which can only be gained from years of experience. If it were up to me, I would learn from all of you, and deepen my understanding of all forms of hypnosis without judgement regarding preference or style. Yet I find myself recoiling when I read the wild generalizations that are regularly made about people who have approached this field from the same path as I have.

To make a brief analogy that will almost certainly upset some of you, many of the greatest jazz musicians of the last 100 years had no desire to play classical music, but it didn't stop them from admiring the work of classicists. Needless to say, their classical counterparts didn't exactly engage in a mutual admiration society with the jazz performers in their midst. They believed that the latter were sloppy, unskilled, and the vanguard of a passing fad. Well, it might be a facile analogy, but I can't help but seeing shades of that dynamic in the way many of you feel about street hypnosis, and your willingness to dismiss both it, and it's adherents, with broad strokes.
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 9, 2011 05:19AM)
And on it goes. More generalisations. Regardless of all the exprience and success most of you can point at, making generalisations about street hypnotists is just as stupid as making generalisations about stage hypnotists. Would you like to all be judged by what you consider the worst in your industry? It just makes you look stupid which I guess aren't your intentions.

I don't ambush, unless being sociable is ambushing. I don't 'zap'. I don't do it for any need for control. I do it to entertain, for free, in my own personal style. I'm not planning on becoming a paid strolling performer and I'm not planning on becoming a paid stage hypnotist. I appreciate it might be hard to understand that someone would choose to perform for free, but I do. I don't monetise my hobbies because I generally do not monetise fun.

And once more (for what must be the fifth time), mindpunisher (see how I can copy and paste your username accurately?), please please please tell us if you were breaking the 1952 Hypnotism Act with your youtube video of your 'impromptu' show. My bet is that you couldn't possibly do it impromptu and that's why you won't reply to this question. Did you have a license? Was your insurance valid? Wasn't it dangerous? Oh, and out of interest, when's you next big Edinburgh run?

HK
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 9, 2011 05:21AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 21:48, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 20:41, Shrubsole wrote:
I see the abuse of the words 'ambushing people' is back. Provided people are asked first and agree, then no 'ambushing' is taking place.

The fact that people are approached unexpectedly and uninvitingly is still ambushing whether they agree or not. Their decision to agree or disagree comes only after the ambush. This is the basic approach for all street and impromptu hypnosis. Then to make matters worse many will not even mention the use of hypnosis or ask permission to use hypnosis).

I also disagree with your perception of stage hypnosis based on your description in the above post. There is so much more to a professional stage hypnosis show than the hypnosis and understanding stagecraft. Those are the primary basics only.
[/quote]

Oh please credit everyone with at least basic intelligence. It is quite obvious to all that the word 'ambush' is being use in a derogatory way by Stage Hypnotists to talk down to anyone that isn't them. So please spare us the semantics of definition.

Then you disagree with me with what you claim is my 'perception of stage hypnosis' yet state that what I wrote was 'the primary basics': I made no such claim in my post that it was the exhaustive list of absolutely everything that is or may be needed to put on a Stage Hypnosis show.

So your post really just seems to be that of a stage hypnotist talking down and correcting everyone else from on high. Using semantics and having a go at others for not posting an exhaustive list of what is required for a stage hypnotist show yet don't bother posting one of their own to help all who may find your opinion very interesting.

So if you have something constructive to help people who want to become Stage Hypnotists then please post that instead of arguing semantics and having a go at other's limitations in their posts that you have failed to address yourself.

Or if you are here just to put yourself on a pedestal, talk down to Street Hypnotists, brand them all the same and dismiss other's posts for being incomplete whilst not addressing the claimed deficiency yourself, then carry on! But all it comes across as is you trying to keep hypnosis a closed shop for you and your friends and not here to actually help the community at all.

Please feel free to post everything you think people need to know about stage hypnosis any time you like. Then people can decide if that is for them or if they prefer impromptu hypnosis. Both are valid forms of hypnosis with both good and bad practitioners in each camp.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2011 03:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 20:41, Shrubsole wrote:
But that is only stagecraft or staging and can be an almost inborn thing picked up from watching all sorts of stage acts or can be learnt at a theatrical class.

After learning the hypnosis and personal interaction with the subjects, a stage act can be put together and tested before it goes on the road and staging changed until works. And works for you (we don't all want to be clones of the mentor do we?)
[/quote]

I don't thin you know the first thing about putting together a stage presentation. Now if this is not your goal, no problem.

I too have seen many many many hypnosis shows, illusion shows and dance shows, and shows of every sort that are VERY poorly put together. So what? Does that excuse putting another one out there as bad and poorly concieved?

Again, if your goal is not to do stage work, then no problem. BUT if you do want to move into that realm, what you have put forth in this post will be your largest stumbling block.

I have never understood just walking up to attempt to entertain people for no aparant reason. Call it ambush, call it whatever, the name is not important. "A rose by any other name" and all that. I simply do not see the point. That is only my opinion. I speak for an army of one, just me. It does not make it right, it simply makes it an opinion. Take it for just that, one mans opinion.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 10, 2011 04:48PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-10 16:12, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 20:41, Shrubsole wrote:
But that is only stagecraft or staging and can be an almost inborn thing picked up from watching all sorts of stage acts or can be learnt at a theatrical class.

After learning the hypnosis and personal interaction with the subjects, a stage act can be put together and tested before it goes on the road and staging changed until works. And works for you (we don't all want to be clones of the mentor do we?)
[/quote]

I don't think you know the first thing about putting together a stage presentation. Now if this is not your goal, no problem.[/quote]

And on what do you base that opinion? It's all fine and well coming on the Internet and just disagreeing or posting just a soundbite, but why do you think that? What do you feel I have left out? Helping others is the general idea on here (or should be)

In my example 'Stagecraft' means anything that isn't the hypnosis, so I think I've covered it all.
Also this is a great example of why I actively chose to remain anonymous on here as lines like "I don't think you know the first thing about putting together a stage presentation." are very far from reality as I have done many a successful stage show in Magic, Mentalism and Hypnosis. (Some combining all 3)

So whilst you have every right to just pluck an opinion out of thin air, it would be interesting and no doubt helpful to all here if you stated why you think that and what it is that you think has been omitted.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2011 05:01PM)
The idea that many of the things done in stage craft are "inborn" and can be gleaned from simply watching others does not hold much water sorry.

You have left out ANYTHING that refers to relating to an AUDIENCE! Everyone worries about the trance, and about the subjects yet the show is being done for an AUDIENCE. They MUST be part of the equasion. For someone to leave that extreamly important part of it out speaks to me at least, of someone with very little experience in on or arround the stage. Then to challenge me to tell you what you left out with this HUGE hole is strange.

See the fact is that a good hypnosis show is talking to the audience and saying one thing, and talking to your subjects and saying another, while using THE SAME WORDS! Like I said I think many of these nuances escape you. If I am wrong then please accept an apology. It is just based on what you have written. Also the simple fact that you refuse to use your name, does not help with me.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 10, 2011 05:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-08 15:42, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
Your own thumper product is chock full of presentations where you claim to read body language. How is this any different?

Anthony
[/quote]

I said I don't like NLP used in pseudo prsentations. My own manual was written quite a few years ago now but I don't ever recall ever using the term NLP. If I did then ( but I don't think I ever did) my views have changed since then. I remember when Derren Brown first came out the fact he did elude to using NLP I thought was really clever. As the years went on and the clones mushroomed I learned to hate the idea. Especially when it does have some real useful applications.

Although if you want use body language fine. I personally really don't like long winded explanations trying to "prove" something is real they seem so laboured to me. The best presentations Ive seen in my view involve a lot of humour and drama without the need to over explain or justify. I find that so boring. And I am not claiming to be a great performer in that style but thatis the style that appeals to me.

Nothing more dull than a person walking up and down a line of people asking them all to say the word no when asked if its their drawing. Then repeat it another four times with no humour no reading of each drawing just the same thing.

Derren gets away with explanations but he has the charisma to do so. Very few others do that Ive seen.

NLP isn't really about reading body language although most magicians seem to think it is. Most magicians/mentalists don't have a clue as to what it actually is. Apart from reading a few chapters of popular books on eye accessing cues.

Just my view.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 11, 2011 02:21AM)
MP, saying you're using NLP when you're not is just verbal misdirection, like reaching for some invisible "woofle dust" in your pocket to cover some action. I agree it's becoming more and more overused and it leads to people with little training in either NLP or magic coming up with amazing explanations for tricks along the lines of "it's all done with mirrors." What I find especially amusing is that these know-nothings tend to get upset when I tell them it's not NLP. Of course some people still think that Houdini was able to dislocate all of his joints or that Geller used a "dry acid" to melt spoons so they'd bend.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 11, 2011 06:41AM)
I agree with you totally Dm. Apart from the "woofle dust". NLP as you know is very real and has some real benefits for those that take the time to learn it and for their clients.

I don't like "NLP woofle dust" used this way since I think it misinforms the public. And apart from that I don't really think its necessary and like you say its a lazy way to create a presentation since its over used. It makes me cringe when I hear it. Mind you if I hear any of the overused terms like "woofle dust" "Abracadabra" etc it would equally make me cringe.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 11, 2011 06:54AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-10 18:01, Dannydoyle wrote:
The idea that many of the things done in stage craft are "inborn" and can be gleaned from simply watching others does not hold much water sorry.

You have left out ANYTHING that refers to relating to an AUDIENCE! Everyone worries about the trance, and about the subjects yet the show is being done for an AUDIENCE. They MUST be part of the equation. For someone to leave that extremely important part of it out speaks to me at least, of someone with very little experience in on or around the stage. Then to challenge me to tell you what you left out with this HUGE hole is strange.

See the fact is that a good hypnosis show is talking to the audience and saying one thing, and talking to your subjects and saying another, while using THE SAME WORDS! Like I said I think many of these nuances escape you. If I am wrong then please accept an apology. It is just based on what you have written. Also the simple fact that you refuse to use your name, does not help with me.
[/quote]

Audience management whilst under hypnosis and talking to the audience about hypnosis (whether true or hogwash) comes under the hypnosis part which I covered, with stagecraft added in. Setting the general mood or atmosphere can arguably come under both hypnosis procedure and/or stagecraft as it's a bit of both.

In a similar way, safety also comes both stagecraft (anything conducted on a stage or anywhere should be safe no matter what, for performers and audience) and hypnosis. (Obviously any part of the safety that is specific to hypnotism. Including but not only: Safety whilst in hypnosis and a full wake up procedure.)

Inborn was maybe taken the wrong way, but I think that as with most things, some people have an eye/brain for such things and others don't and never will have. Many items of stagecraft can be instilled in certain individuals who are receptive to that. It can be gotten from any performance onstage or off by having a lifetime of watching all sorts of things, not just hypnosis but plays, musicals, comedy, speeches, and anything else. 'How was the lighting use?' 'How was the sound use' 'Backdrops?' 'Presentation style?' 'Overall mood set?' 'Pacing?' etc., etc., etc., can all be seen and absorbed from seeing many theatrical and non-theatrical things over many years. But some people are oblivious to the whole thing and don't get it and never will, so whilst the actual stagecraft may not be inborn, the ability to absorb and understand it is with some people. (Hopefully everyone here, but as said, we have both seen some acts where the performer doesn't understand it and never will)

As a really crap example we can have a quick over-view of Copperfields flying: The whole piece starts with a video, setting up the whole premise of what is about to come. (The video is designed for two purposes; 1 to set the scene and the premise and 2 to give Mr Copperfield the time required to get ready) - Now of course the getting ready bit is not registered by the audience as they are engrossed in the video and that is how it should be, but there is often more going on that the audience perceive.

The video of course sets the scene and premise that Mr. Copperfield has had a dream to fly and has been trying and failing for years but that if he never gives up then he hasn't really failed. (Sickly sweet metaphor for everyone should follow their dreams and never give up) - Then follows the technical bit of stagecraft as the video ends and lighting changes/video fades/music starts/video screen flown off/etc.

And then of course Mr. Copperfield then fulfils the premise set (all requiring bits of stagecraft) and executes one of the best stage exits possible. (Flying off into the wings with a bird of pray on his arm)

Now some people see all that stagecraft and some don't - Now that doesn't matter if you are just an audience member, just sit back and enjoy, but it's the type of things anyone should know and understand if they are thinking of putting on any show.

The rest of course is the technical workings of the trick, and that is akin to the hypnosis part of a hypnosis show - That is for the performer to know about and do, not for the audience. They don't need to know what type of induction you are using tonight or it's history. Most Pre-hypnosis talks are a mixture of reality and hogwash to set the scene, allay fears and make the audience receptive to what happens next. (Better cover that included in the reality parts is the screening for safety and/or any other safety that needs to be address. (Or that will get jumped on))

So I still contend that there are only two parts: Hypnosis (Which is what the hypnotist must learn anyway they can or want to as long as it's safe) and everything else comes under stagecraft as stagecraft does include everything else. Obviously there is some crossover as to which bit is hypnosis and which bit is stagecraft, but that is just semantics. The only things needed therefore for a good hypnosis act is hypnosis and stagecraft as that does cover everything. Again it's only semantics if something else is required as whatever it is can and should come under Hypnosis and/or Stagecraft.

For work not on a stage the word performancecraft can be interchanged with stagecraft and in many cases is a more suitable word.

As agreed, some people understand what stagecraft is and absorb it whilst watching many things whilst others don't and never will and therefore shouldn't really be performing anywhere. But they do!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 11, 2011 10:16AM)
If you are talking about an "aptitude" for it then we can agree. I find it odd how many times hypnotists on this forum have so much trouble with simple language!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 11, 2011 11:45AM)
Yes 'aptitude' is fine if you want to put it that way, but I would say aptitude is something that isn't learnt, more the way you are born. Some are born with it some are not and will never get what people are talking about.

Most skills can be taught, but having a inborn aptitude for something really helps.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 11, 2011 12:39PM)
When I was a kid, I remember drawing in kindergarten. I could barely make a house with a stick figure outside while the girl next to me drew a horse with every individual hair being windblown! I always thought I was a terrible artists until I took a class with someone teaching using the book, Drawing From the Right Side of the Brain. I was actually shocked at how good I could draw.

The girl had an inborn aptitude. Left undeveloped, it withered and died. I didn't have an inborn aptitude, but with training I was able to far exceed what a person with inborn aptitude could do. Later, I learned that through modeling, it was possible for a person without inborn aptitude to develop superior talents in any field.

Perhaps this means we all have inborn aptitude for everything, but we only bring it out when we focus upon it.

But the bottom line is that inborn aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice and experience will supersede any other person's inborn aptitude if left undeveloped. It's like little kids can get by on cute for just so long. Sooner or later they grow up and aren't cute any more. Natural aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice, and experience will inevitably win out.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 11, 2011 04:38PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 13:39, dmkraig wrote:
Perhaps this means we all have inborn aptitude for everything, but we only bring it out when we focus upon it.

But the bottom line is that inborn aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice and experience will supersede any other person's inborn aptitude if left undeveloped. It's like little kids can get by on cute for just so long. Sooner or later they grow up and aren't cute any more. Natural aptitude will only get you so far. Training, practice, and experience will inevitably win out.
[/quote]

Exactly.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 05:41AM)
There is nothing wrong with training in anything at all and in moving into a new area, someone may surprise themselves and find they already have a natural aptitude for whatever it is.

However, training someone in something without a natural aptitude or unable to develop one for it, just produces a robot clone of the teaching material.

How many magicians do exactly that? No creative thinking, no stage presence and no idea that they are doing anything wrong. They just buy the DVD and do it like the man on the video says to do it, complete with the jokes that just don't work in all situations.

For decades here in England, magic was held back years by the old fuddy duddies who instructed anyone who would listen that to be a magician you needed a top hat and tails! I clearly recall back in the 70s seeing on TV a Canadian magician who looked like a hippie. Dressed in jeans and a T-shirt, with long hippie hair. (Doug Henning) but oh no! The old fuddy duddies here didn't like that and that was not the way to go at all. They were wrong and had no aptitude for seeing anything outside of what they had been taught.

It's funny that decades later, I'm seeing the same thing and attitude with 'Street' (whatever that means) Hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 12, 2011 10:13AM)
I mean Restaurant...I should've just said Caf.. Spellings getting worse with using word checkers all the time..
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 12, 2011 11:12AM)
OOOHhh! Nice switch, Shrubsole. Instead of just saying, "Only old fogies stuck in the past who can't accept change are against street hypnosis," you share a long story about magicians in top hats. Of course, this really only reveals your own predilection and approach and could just a well be written, "Help me! I'm terrified of learning anything from experts so I'll ignore them, repeat all of their mistakes and errors, and appear to be a self-centered, egotistical, know-it-all."

In reality, neither is the case. Experts are saying there's more to entertainment hypnosis than sticking a hand to a trash can and you're saying that new approaches should be embraced. Personally, I agree with both points of view. I agree with you that new approaches should be embraced--when it's logical to do so. Change, IMO, is good. But change for change's sake is meaningless.

You've claimed you've gotten lots of shows as a result of doing Street Hypnosis before a booker instead of sending them typical brochures and a video. Mmmm, maybe. But you've made no indication that you've made a series of tests comparing the two approaches. Plus, it could also be that when it comes to traditional promotion to bookers you just suck and if you were good at it you would have achieved far more success that way.

Even so, you are making the logical error of moving from the specific to the general with no reason to do so. That is, you're assuming that because something works for you it must work for everyone. It doesn't. In fact, when I look at the majority of people doing street hypnosis I see younger men (under 25 and often under 20) showing off, making fools of others, and trying to get over their own insecurities and feelings of inferiority by doing so. I don't see street hypnotists working queues and getting tips or handing out adverts for their shows later that evening. I don't see them contacting newspapers and radio/tv stations saying, "Send a reporter! I'm going to hypnotize unsuspecting people right on the street."

Even assuming you're accurate and that you're best able to get bookings through a few minutes of street hypnosis in front of bookers, that's NOT what the majority of street hypnotists are doing. If you're able to rationalize your actions by saying you can best get bookings this way, more power to you! But that's like saying every mentalist should claim to be using NLP because Brown gets away with it.

What works for one does not necessarily work for another.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 12, 2011 11:32AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 12:12, dmkraig wrote:
In fact, when I look at the majority of people doing street hypnosis I see younger men (under 25 and often under 20) showing off, making fools of others, and trying to get over their own insecurities and feelings of inferiority by doing so.
[/quote]

Very well said. I also agree with you about who is being attracted to street/impromptu hypnosis, their demographics and reasons. This is why so many of their posts here begin with or include such phrasing or references as "I was trying to hypnotize someone at my school..." or "here at my University..."

The fact is true professionals in any field perform a skill for profit, period. Anyone who is just doing this for fun or self-fulfillment is an hobbiest or amateur. No real agent likely could or would book anyone from just a street performance anyhow as they would still need the proper materials to present the act/person to potential clients. So often here the basis of the disagreement or difference in perspective is because the conversations are between professionals and amateurs/hobbiests. This is the root of so much of the conflict here. It used to be if you were new or just starting out you would look up to and respect those with more experience than yourself, you would learn from them, rather than make a fool of yourself by trying to challenge them. The only thing this has ever seemed to achieve is a bonding of those with little skill, knowledge or experience, leading to the blind leading the blind and a false sense of knowledge.

Many seem to talk about things they've never done personally themselves, others from literal personal experience. There is a big difference.

I'm personally so grateful for those pro's that offered me, advice, knowledge and wisdom as it all contributed to making me a better performer overall.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 12, 2011 12:01PM)
In responce to dmkraig's post:

All I am stating is what I have tried and works for me. If you find something that works better for you then great, stick with it.

I'm here giving my view like others so that people can read it and make their own chose as to what to try and what has worked for me. I not here to waste my time on semantics, 'what it seems like' or intellectual nit picking of a couple of words or a sentence.

Also, it's not just Hypnosis I do, I have a mentalism act and a straight magic act as well. Sometimes I have been known to do all three! (Do I have to add a line here explaining that just because I do that others may do it differently? Or can we take it that people of at least average intelligence are reading this and can work that out for themselves?)

But if we are nit-picking semantics, it seems that you are trying to say that all street hypnotists ever do is stick people's hand to tables, and rest your view of them on that. Whilst I'm sure 1000s of them how do just that, others don't! Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it, some combine it with mentalism, some do it as a foot in the door, some do lots more than sticking people's hands to things...

Why is your world so black and white? It would appear that in your world there are 'the experts' (meaning anyone who is not a street hypnotist) and street hypnotists who only stick people's hands to things. That is a very narrow view of things and why embracing new things and approaches is a good idea even for someone as old as I as I'm no teenager. I think 'old fogies' isn't an age, it's a state of mind.

Also as you may know, here in England we don't elect ourselves experts and use it to look down on people and attack anyone who doesn't give us the respect that we demand they do. If I'm an expert in anything (see, I don't elect myself as one) then any knowledge I have I try to help people with and demand nothing in return. That does seem to be a major difference between people who are experts and those out for an ego trip demanding this, that and the other.

It's bad new I'm afraid: Stage Hypnotists are not the only experts in the world! (Self elected or otherwise) There are just as many bad ones of those as there are bad Street Hypnotists. Only seeing the good in one and the bad in the other is the major problem in your intellectual essay.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 12, 2011 03:56PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 13:01, Shrubsole wrote:
In responce to dmkraig's post:

All I am stating is what I have tried and works for me. If you find something that works better for you then great, stick with it.[/quote]

If that were the way you were presenting your position, I'd agree with you 100%. But respectfully, that's not what you're doing. You've been presenting yourself as THE way to achieve success for all because it worked for you and if any dare challenge you they're nothing but archaic luddites lost in their dotage.

[quote]I'm here giving my view like others so that people can read it and make their own chose as to what to try and what has worked for me. I not here to waste my time on semantics, 'what it seems like' or intellectual nit picking of a couple of words or a sentence.[/quote]

Well, I'm "anti-semantic," too. ;-)
However, I would suggest that the very basis of hypnosis is understanding and using language (both verbal and non-verbal), so it's important to choose words wisely, especially for a hypnotist.

[quote]Also, it's not just Hypnosis I do, I have a mentalism act and a straight magic act as well. Sometimes I have been known to do all three! (Do I have to add a line here explaining that just because I do that others may do it differently? Or can we take it that people of at least average intelligence are reading this and can work that out for themselves?)[/quote]

You see, this is what I mean. You're coming off as a snarky know-it-all who thinks that nobody in the history of entertainment has never done magic/mentalism/hypnosis and that you're The Great Originator. I'm sure that's not what you want to do, but it's the way you're presenting yourself.

[quote]But if we are nit-picking semantics, it seems that you are trying to say that all street hypnotists ever do is stick people's hand to tables, and rest your view of them on that. Whilst I'm sure 1000s of them how do just that, others don't! Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it, some combine it with mentalism, some do it as a foot in the door, some do lots more than sticking people's hands to things...[/quote]

First, my post had nothing to do with semantics. I was being straight forward. Second, I sincerely doubt that there are "1000s" of people doing street hypnosis. I'd love to see any source you have that shows there are thousands of people doing this. Third, I never claimed that there aren't some people who do more than stick people's hands to trash cans when doing street hypnosis. However that (and similar stunts) is certainly what the majority are doing. Fourth, you write "Some do it merely for the enjoyment of it" but don't share what that "enjoyment" is. I contend it's working out their own psychological issues and feelings of inferiority. But prove me wrong. What type of enjoyment is it to come up to people, hypnotize them, and stick their hands to a pole? Fifth, I'd love to hear what type of stunts you're doing with street hypnosis other than putting people in uncomfortable positions. Please share. I'm sure others here would like to have you educate us.

[quote]Why is your world so black and white? It would appear that in your world there are 'the experts' (meaning anyone who is not a street hypnotist) and street hypnotists who only stick people's hands to things. That is a very narrow view of things and why embracing new things and approaches is a good idea even for someone as old as I as I'm no teenager. I think 'old fogies' isn't an age, it's a state of mind.[/quote]

Now you ARE playing semantics. Interesting that you said you didn't want to do it but that's exactly what you end up doing. I wonder why that is? So lets go down your claims:
1) I don't see things as black and white. I'm open to all styles of hypnosis including street hypnosis. On the other hand, you have denounced anyone who dares disagree with your closed-minded attitudes. You're the one seeing things in black and white.
2) I use the term "the experts" to mean "people with experience and advanced knowledge of a subject." Therefore, there could be street hypnotists who are also experts. My point was that you are totally ignoring people with more experience and knowledge than you have. That, again, is you dividing of people into black and white.
3) I agree that "old fogies" is a state of mind, not an age. But it's also the way you're treating people you disagree with.

BTW, in my opinion, when experts say something is possible, it probably is. But when people are considered experts merely because of their age, and they say something is impossible, they're probably wrong.

I'm STILL waiting to hear your SPECIFIC examples of street hypnosis other than what I've described. So far, you've just made broad generalizations about things you supposedly do.

[quote]Also as you may know, here in England we don't elect ourselves experts and use it to look down on people and attack anyone who doesn't give us the respect that we demand they do. If I'm an expert in anything (see, I don't elect myself as one) then any knowledge I have I try to help people with and demand nothing in return. That does seem to be a major difference between people who are experts and those out for an ego trip demanding this, that and the other. [/quote]

And I think that's what any expert should do. However, it's a total waste of time when you try to share and someone tells you they know better. This is especially difficult on a forum. Were it in person, a reasonable person with experience, when confronted with someone who tells him or her, "you're wrong," would just say, "Whatever" and walk away. But on a forum, where hundreds or thousands of people might read the posts, if trained and experienced people don't respond then neophytes are likely to think the person without expertise knows what he or she is talking about and be horribly misled. Therefore, on forums, when people care about others, it's important to stand up to those who don't know what they're talking about.

[quote]It's bad new I'm afraid: Stage Hypnotists are not the only experts in the world! (Self elected or otherwise) There are just as many bad ones of those as there are bad Street Hypnotists. Only seeing the good in one and the bad in the other is the major problem in your intellectual essay.
[/quote]

So if you're presenting yourself as an expert, then help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 13, 2011 01:54AM)
I had a serious meeting with a major TV company yesterday about street hypnosis. The stunt that got them interested. Catalepsy with a cash challenge.

For the record I have never stuck someone to a bin :)

Anthony
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 13, 2011 05:54AM)
@dmkraig, whatever.

HK
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 07:13AM)
"So if you're presenting yourself as an expert..."

And that's it in a nutshell! I'm not presenting myself as anything. I don't need to. I Don't seem to have that trait shown by some on here where they arrogantly have to be the top dog and demand that everyone needs to listen to then or they are wrong. I have no ego that requires constant stroking and reinforcement.

It is that very arrogance on here that is ruining this place. Self-elected experts telling you that they are experts and that everyone else should shut up and listen to them whilst they prattle on on their ego-trip.

It so bad that they can't even see they are doing it.

Read my posts or don't read my posts. Find them of interest or discard them. I have no ego that requires constant attention and no need to qualify my posts as something you need to listen to by telling everyone how wonderful I think I am.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 07:20AM)
"Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing."

Oh how I LOLed. Talk about biased shoving of your own words onto others mouths with loaded demands.

Seriously: Can you not see how you are coming across by posting arrogant demands and telling people what they need to do?

Answer: Exactly as I have stated above and it went straight over your head. Oh well, I tried.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 07:29AM)
"My point was that you are totally ignoring people with more experience and knowledge than you have."

Well thanks for letting me know what you have decided about me.

So:
You have decided who the experts are.
You have decided I'm not one.
You have decided what I do with the knowledge of the experts who are defined by you.

And you have no concept of the word 'arrogance'?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 10:10AM)
I am so sick of the virtual measuring contests that go on.

I have to say that the street guys seem to have something to prove. They are the ones often offended quite quickly at being dismissed, while dismissing quite quickly others. I don't know why the need for others to take you seriously takes such a big part of these discussions. I mean really, if you are happy with what you are doing then great. It should not matter what any of us old guys who have been making a living for 20+ years think. In the end it is all opinions and if you are happy with doing things like you are, then there should be no problem.

The fact is that in America at least (I can not speak for England.) street hypnosis will never, or at least in the near future, reach the levels that stage work has. It is what it is. A = A and nothing will change it. Stage hypnosis here still has major audiences who want to see it and who pay money to see it. The show has not been relegated to back of bars.

So if you are happy with what it is you are doing, that really is all that matters in the end right? What we think of it should not enter into the equasion, and there is certainly no reason to be offended by what we say or think.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 13, 2011 01:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 08:13, Shrubsole wrote:
"So if you're presenting yourself as an expert..."

And that's it in a nutshell! I'm not presenting myself as anything. I don't need to. I Don't seem to have that trait shown by some on here where they arrogantly have to be the top dog and demand that everyone needs to listen to then or they are wrong. I have no ego that requires constant stroking and reinforcement.[/quote]

Bullpucky!

You're coming off as an expert who knows more than anyone else. You EXACTLY show the trait of arrogance and demand that people with other views are wrong. The fact that you are here claiming you have no ego shows exactly how big your ego is. If you didn't have an ego you wouldn't be posting defending your expertise. You wouldn't be a performer, either.

[quote]It is that very arrogance on here that is ruining this place. Self-elected experts telling you that they are experts and that everyone else should shut up and listen to them whilst they prattle on on their ego-trip.

It so bad that they can't even see they are doing it.[/quote]

Pot->Mirror->Black

NOBODY is telling others to "shut up and listen." People are saying, "I have years of experience that I'm willing to share." Then some egomaniac comes on and writes that they don't care about the experience and training of others. They've seen a few videos and read a book (I call them "IROBs" : "I Read One Book and now I know everything so I don't need to listen to anyone."

[quote]Read my posts or don't read my posts. Find them of interest or discard them. I have no ego that requires constant attention and no need to qualify my posts as something you need to listen to by telling everyone how wonderful I think I am.
[/quote]

Bullpucky. If you had no ego you wouldn't post them at all, sharing your self- assumed expertise.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 13, 2011 01:15PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 08:29, Shrubsole wrote:
"My point was that you are totally ignoring people with more experience and knowledge than you have."

Well thanks for letting me know what you have decided about me.

So:
You have decided who the experts are.
You have decided I'm not one.
You have decided what I do with the knowledge of the experts who are defined by you.

And you have no concept of the word 'arrogance'?
[/quote]

I have decided that your expressed lack of knowledge and training, combined with egotism that prevents you from even being willing to hear what others have to say or entertain the possibility that you might be wrong or partially wrong, shows you to be a self-centered, arrogant, unimportant nothing.

You seem to think that all of the people on this forum have never been in the position you are. The difference between you and some of the other people here is that they listened to others. They learned from others. And then, the best of them went on to originate based on what they learned.

And what have you done other than stick someone's hand to a pole?

No, you clearly know more than everyone here.

And as I wrote to you earlier:

"... help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!"

We STILL want to know, and although you've made several posts, you've not responded to this at all. You're the self-appointed expert in this. You said that experts help others. So share your information.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 13, 2011 03:03PM)
[quote]
"... help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!"

We STILL want to know, and although you've made several posts, you've not responded to this at all. You're the self-appointed expert in this. You said that experts help others. So share your information.
[/quote]

Yes, I to would love to hear your a non-expert, non-egotist, non-professional (not done for a living), non-magician, non-stage hypnotist (did I miss any?), inborn answers too!
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 13, 2011 03:50PM)
84 posts, none helping the original poster. Keep it going guys.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 04:07PM)
I'd love to but have been told that I'm not an expert and don't know what I'm talking about.

I didn't even get the option of electing myself an expert. Only some others are allowed to do that and then only the people they say can do so after that.

Seems I miss the 'Elect yourself an expert day'

Still, I'll just bumble along a do my best.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 04:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 16:50, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
84 posts, none helping the original poster. Keep it going guys.
[/quote]

Says the guy who makes a living selling a package telling people to steal cucumbers?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 04:15PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:07, Shrubsole wrote:
I'd love to but have been told that I'm not an expert and don't know what I'm talking about.

I didn't even get the option of electing myself an expert. Only some others are allowed to do that and then only the people they say can do so after that.
[/quote]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but others are always the one who determing if you are an expert or not. I do not pose that you are, I do not pose that you are not. I do not know you well enough. But part of my not taking you as an expert is I have no idea who you are. ALL we have to judge you on is your words right here. We don't know your background, so how can we possibly know?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 05:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:07, Shrubsole wrote:
I'd love to but have been told that I'm not an expert and don't know what I'm talking about.

I didn't even get the option of electing myself an expert. Only some others are allowed to do that and then only the people they say can do so after that.
[/quote]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but others are always the one who determine if you are an expert or not. I do not pose that you are, I do not pose that you are not. I do not know you well enough. But part of my not taking you as an expert is I have no idea who you are. ALL we have to judge you on is your words right here. We don't know your background, so how can we possibly know?
[/quote]

"others are always the one who determine if you are an expert or not."

But that is simply not the case on here at all. There are loads of self-elected experts who demand that I listen to them as they are an expert. They didn't once ask me to decide or if I agreed.

As for me, I require no such label to be given to me or invent for myself. I really don't. I don't need the utter self-elected arrogant ego trip that some seem to need so much that they only ever come on here to find a post that they can dissect and talk down to. They are here to help no one.

If something useful is read in a post of mine then great, if there is nothing of interest in a post of mine, then great.

And when you find out what some poster's real agendas are:

[quote]
On 2011-05-04 08:05, mindpunisher wrote:
...But the truth is the more bad hypnotists around the less booking around. And the ones that are around the fees plumet. You won't look good because you won't get the chance too it will simply **** up the market if it hasn't already. I know hypnotists even in the states that have stopped doing shows because of all the courses and newbies willing to do shows for next to nothing. One told me its screwed up the market.
[/quote]

Then you get to see what is really behind the talking down to others and electing themselves as the so-called experts.

So we have me: Who requires no badge.
And then we have the others with their own home-made badge and we can see what they are really all about.

I mean those word are not mine, so it can't be something I have made up can it?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (May 13, 2011 05:15PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:12, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 16:50, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
84 posts, none helping the original poster. Keep it going guys.
[/quote]

Says the guy who makes a living selling a package telling people to steal cucumbers?
[/quote]

More need then for a forum where people who want to discuss Impromptu Hypnosis can do so without people who don't get it talking down to them.

But I bet the great self-elected couldn't keep away if their ego depended on it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 13, 2011 05:46PM)
We've all long agreed there should be a separate forum for street/impromptu.

The only one mentioning and bitc**ing about experts and self-elected experts is you. I believe you coined the term - you're contribution to this forum. You're the only one who brings up or complains about labels and badges, most are here to learn something. I don't need a label, I'll let my 30+ years of full-time live performing speak for itself. I don't need to prove anything or anyone. Also please don't confuse real world experience, skill and knowledge with ego - this is another mistake you seem to make regularly. Many people on here regularly ask & PM questions and advice and seem to appreciate the information and perspectives offered by those of us with proven track records.

If you want to put your efforts into something constructive, try banding together with your brothers and work on convincing the mods that a forum for street/impromptu is warranted. Get Anthony in your corner as I believe he's been a paid advertiser here before and should carry some clout. Tripp and others I would think would be with you. You may even be able to soon obtain "expert" status in your own forum!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 06:02PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 18:12, Shrubsole wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 17:07, Shrubsole wrote:
I'd love to but have been told that I'm not an expert and don't know what I'm talking about.

I didn't even get the option of electing myself an expert. Only some others are allowed to do that and then only the people they say can do so after that.
[/quote]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but others are always the one who determine if you are an expert or not. I do not pose that you are, I do not pose that you are not. I do not know you well enough. But part of my not taking you as an expert is I have no idea who you are. ALL we have to judge you on is your words right here. We don't know your background, so how can we possibly know?
[/quote]

"others are always the one who determine if you are an expert or not."

But that is simply not the case on here at all. There are loads of self-elected experts who demand that I listen to them as they are an expert. They didn't once ask me to decide or if I agreed.

As for me, I require no such label to be given to me or invent for myself. I really don't. I don't need the utter self-elected arrogant ego trip that some seem to need so much that they only ever come on here to find a post that they can dissect and talk down to. They are here to help no one.

If something useful is read in a post of mine then great, if there is nothing of interest in a post of mine, then great.

And when you find out what some poster's real agendas are:

[quote]
On 2011-05-04 08:05, mindpunisher wrote:
...But the truth is the more bad hypnotists around the less booking around. And the ones that are around the fees plumet. You won't look good because you won't get the chance too it will simply **** up the market if it hasn't already. I know hypnotists even in the states that have stopped doing shows because of all the courses and newbies willing to do shows for next to nothing. One told me its screwed up the market.
[/quote]

Then you get to see what is really behind the talking down to others and electing themselves as the so-called experts.

So we have me: Who requires no badge.
And then we have the others with their own home-made badge and we can see what they are really all about.

I mean those word are not mine, so it can't be something I have made up can it?
[/quote]

It seems as if you even have little life experience. The value of your opinions is determined by others. Sorry to break it to you. Not everyones opinion is equal.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 06:03PM)
And yes we have long said a special ambush forum is needed.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 13, 2011 06:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 18:12, Shrubsole wrote:

As for me, I require no such label to be given to me or invent for myself. I really don't. I don't need the utter self-elected arrogant ego trip that some seem to need so much that they only ever come on here to find a post that they can dissect and talk down to. They are here to help no one.
[/quote]

And yet you come here on an ego trip, putting yourself up as an expert while decrying expertise.

And for a third time I'll ask:

... help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!"

We STILL want to know, and although you've made several posts, you've not responded to this at all. You're the self-appointed expert in this. You said that experts help others. So share your information.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 13, 2011 06:23PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 18:46, Mindpro wrote:
We've all long agreed there should be a separate forum for street/impromptu.
[/quote]

Who is we exactly?

I see no need for a separate forum. Just change the title and mandate of this one ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 13, 2011 08:25PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 19:23, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-13 18:46, Mindpro wrote:
We've all long agreed there should be a separate forum for street/impromptu.
[/quote]

Who is we exactly?

I see no need for a separate forum. Just change the title and mandate of this one ;)
[/quote]

Those of us who are not ambush hypnotists trying to steal cucumbers.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 14, 2011 05:51AM)
I do not see anything in the group description or the ground rules suggesting this is a forum only for traditional stage hypnotists. Perhaps you should have asked someone to close the door earlier.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 14, 2011 08:35AM)
Yea who would have thought common sense would prevail huh?
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 15, 2011 12:03PM)
This talk of experts and ego is hilarious. Have you looked at yourselves?

HK
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 15, 2011 12:32PM)
I don't believe I talked of ego did I?

I just want to know why this always degrades into a stupid measuring contest. The (to avoid the "ambush term) "impromptu" guys, (is that better? seriously I ask) want or even DEMAND respect. But to be serious what has been done to earn it? I mean to be fair respect is something you earn, and it is something you must give to get. The whole attitude of the "impromptu" guys (I use quotes because I am not certain if that is the term you prefer.) make claims about us not understanding, scared to do it, old fashioned and all this. The premise is one of new age better than everyone and you better respect us because it is the new wave. THEN you are shocked that your ideas are not met with a warm reception. Is it any wonder?

Then when you are told you are wrong, or need to do a bit more research, or whatever you blow up and the name calling begins. Notice how this whole post I am intentionally going out of my way to avoid that? But in general the youth get pretty wound up with wanting respect. In the end I think that you need to do something that shows you deserve to be respected is all. This may never change.

Look back over the years of threads of kids who came in and were going to change the face of hypnosis in this forum alone. Most now gone from the hypnosis scene and onto the next fad they find. So maybe try to understand that this is not a new phenemenon. Maybe it is nothing new and all the chin wagging and swagger from the youth gets a bit tiresome. It seems new to you, but in reality it is not. So perhaps if you try a bit of respect, you might just get some back. I have tried in this very post to be respectful. I wonder if it will work?
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (May 16, 2011 03:16AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-04 23:21, rpierce wrote:
If you're in the Boston area and you read this, please PM me and tell me why you would or would not like to participate in this?
[/quote]

Im just wondering if Mr. Pierce got an answer, even if it was via PM?
Message: Posted by: hypnokid (May 16, 2011 04:25AM)
The stupid measuring contest (of late at least) starts with MP inserting nonsense slurs in every post he makes within a short space of time (usually following a period of silence). People react, pointing out that his publicly observable record is not as amazing as he claims. Sometimes, they even point out that he's making a claim that can be refuted with his own words from only a couple of months before. Others join in and the insults appear in every post.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to write your post. I haven't witnessed the previous years of posts so am unaware that people may have written stupid things in the past. All I see is that I (and possibly others) are being treated as if we are those people, which I am not.

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

And on the topic of ambush, if I show someone a card trick (as I did on Saturday), then am I an ambush magician? :)

HK
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 16, 2011 06:01AM)
I think we need a forum for cuecumbers. No one seems to care about what they think. They seem to suffer a lot of prejudice just because they are green.

I think they deserve more respect.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (May 16, 2011 08:38AM)
No doubt your vegetable friends are grateful to know they too can be liberated using hypnosis.

I needed to know that they could, now I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNTIc9ytaaM

Wow how time has flown.

Anthony
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 16, 2011 09:03AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-16 05:25, hypnokid wrote:
The stupid measuring contest (of late at least) starts with MP inserting nonsense slurs in every post he makes within a short space of time (usually following a period of silence). People react, pointing out that his publicly observable record is not as amazing as he claims. Sometimes, they even point out that he's making a claim that can be refuted with his own words from only a couple of months before. Others join in and the insults appear in every post.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to write your post. I haven't witnessed the previous years of posts so am unaware that people may have written stupid things in the past. All I see is that I (and possibly others) are being treated as if we are those people, which I am not.

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

And on the topic of ambush, if I show someone a card trick (as I did on Saturday), then am I an ambush magician? :)

HK
[/quote]

In truth I started using the phrase "ambush magicians" when the whole "street magic" phenemenon came to light after David Blaine.
Message: Posted by: suspectacts (May 16, 2011 09:19AM)
My suggestion to R.P. (sorry to bring things BACK to the original topic):

Forget trying to find a 'crew' of hypnotists. Instead get a friend or hire a guy with with a video camera (the bigger the better) and some lights. Then approach people like you're making a show.

What most people forget about David Blaine style performances is that they are FOR THE CAMERA, not for the volunteer or for the crowd that forms. Give the volunteer a reason to succeed, making THEM comfortable, is much more important then making yourself feel comfortable (surrounding yourself with a posse).

Best of luck

peter
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 16, 2011 10:18AM)
The best trick David ever did was the "appearing second unit". It was cool!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 16, 2011 11:01AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-16 05:25, hypnokid wrote:

The attitude of the stage hypnotists in this forum has come across as blindly prejudiced against the impromptu hypnotists. Now, I appreciate that the past brings a lot to bear, but maybe you'd like to ask yourselves if blind prejudice is the kind of characteristic you would like people to think you have. I'm sure we are all smarter than this.

HK
[/quote]

Actually, it's not. It begins by suggesting possibilities to help make street hypnotists better hypnotists--not necessarily turn them into stage hypnotists, but better hypnotists. Period (or for UK readers, Full Stop). This advice has been immediately rejected by several of the frequently posting street hypnotists.

HK, it's a matter of ego. Street hypnotists ask what others think, and if others don't bow down in obeisance to the beliefs of the street hypnotist, the street hypnotist immediately begins to whine about prejudice.

I can't speak for other, only myself. But some of the street hypnotists have come off as know-it-all 3rd grade students who have just learned long division and think anything else, like calculus or geometry, is a waste of time. They want to learn more but only under their terms.

I'm not against street hypnosis at all. I AM opposed to weak or bad entertainment in any venue. It makes all entertainers in that field look bad. Mentalists today are often compared to Brown; Illusionists to Copperfield, street magicians to Blaine, etc. When it comes to street hypnosis, there are a few good performers. Anthony, for one, is very good. As he has posted in these forums, he's never stuck someone's hand to a pole.

But most--not all--street hypnotists seems to have been trained by watching videos on YouTube. They do things that are extremely dangerous (such as seen in the advertising for Zap!), or just boring, such as living mannequins with pole sticks. Even if you're not a bizarrist, as Eugene Burger points out, if you make the spirit bell ring once, you've produced an awe-inspiring miracle. Do it 20 times and it's a boring effect. Where's the originality, the stage presence, the monetization?

I've written to Shrubsole the following three times. Here's the fourth:


"... help us poor people who don't have knowledge. Give us some SPECIFIC examples of stunts you're doing as part of your street hypnosis. Not magic. Not mentalism. Something other than having someone stick their hand to a pole or their forehead or stand in an uncomfortable position. Share how you're making a living doing just street hypnosis. Share how taking advantage of others for your own enjoyment is a good thing. Share exactly how you're getting a booker to come out from behind his/her desk, ignore your publicity and reel, and suddenly book you because they see you hypnotizing someone in the street. We poor people would like to know this!"

He still has not responded to this.

But even more interesting, perhaps, is the question of what is the ego involvement that makes some street hypnotists defend what they're doing so strongly? Interestingly, it would seem that the less a street hypnotist is trained, the more he defends what he is doing. Obviously there is a strong ego attachment to this.

From what I've seen, I would contend that it has to do with personal issues of the street hypnotist. He feels insecure and powerless. By "bending someone to his will" he gains power and self-perceived stature. Making street hypnosis changes from entertainment to therapy. They don't need to improve their skills. They don't need to be entertaining. They just need to show power over others to build up self-esteem. Bend more people to his will and he has higher self-esteem and more self-perceived power. There's no need to do anything more than making a mannequin or a hand stick.

If someone wants to work out their feelings of inferiority in public, that's up to them. People with inferiority feelings will often blast those who dare question their position (it's called a Napoleonic Complex). AFAIC, I just want to see better hypnotists. That means training, study, and practice. It means developing stage presence and working on perfecting one's skills. I have been absolutely consistent in saying this, advising both street hypnotists and stage hypnotists to do this. Quite frankly, some people who want to learn stage hypnosis end up doing the same thing. They read one book or saw one video and now want to learn everything their way, and if you dare to suggest anything that would make it easier and faster to become an effective hypnotist, they denounce you. It has nothing to do with hypnosis, it's ego. With their minimal studying they know better than anyone else.

Are there people who become great hypnotists using means other than training, study and practice? Absolutely! But for every person who becomes a good hypnotist without training, study and practice, I would guess there are dozens, if not hundreds, who try and give up. How do I come up with that number? Because I've seen people who get the training and still couldn't hypnotize someone. For every student who gets training or mentoring and fails to learn, I believe there will be many more who don't get training or mentoring and just give up. Look at the numbers of books on how to be a hypnotist that sell and how few performers there are.

HK, I'm not saying you "have to" do things my way or anyone else's way. In fact, I would hope that you come up with great performance techniques and concepts. What I am saying is that street hypnotists shouldn't blow off people with experience and knowledge. Listen--and remember that they can be wrong, too. Often, some speak as if their way is the only way simply because it worked for them. Give what those who have experience and share ideas and information with you a chance. Try it out. If it works, use it. If is sort of works, modify it so it will work for you. If it doesn't work, discard it. Originality often involves learning something inside and out, and then coming up with a new approach. It doesn't mean starting out with a new approach from the beginning.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 17, 2011 09:22AM)
What happened to the Monty Python clip? It made the most sense on the forum.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 17, 2011 10:46AM)
Very well said and explained dmkraig!

I might add that I also think part of the problem here is the magic connection. Having attended over 15 live trainings and certification events, as well as hosting my own hypnosis consulting/mentoring noticed there is a huge difference in the way magicians approach their interest and desire to learn hypnosis (of any style) vs. regular students with no magic interest or background. I'm not sure if it's two different agendas (one with pure interest only in hypnosis, and the other with interest in hypnosis as it will pertain to their magic or performing careers, interests or endeavors) or two different mentalities, mindsets and approaches to learning a new skill, craft or profession.

Most non-magic students have a single sole vision in mind - to better understand, learn, practice and apply hypnosis. The student with magic-based interests seem to come from a perspective where they have learned many different elements or tools from their magic - i.e. slights, misdirection, cards, coins, ropes, silks, and other individual skills that together add to their overall craft. These people seem to approach learning hypnosis as they would one of these skills or effects. From these two different mindsets comes two entirely different perceptions, applications, and expectations. The ego seems to be the most significant of these differences. For some reason those with magic backgrounds or interests seem to have the ego mindset that you pointed out in your post of wanting or needing acceptance, approval and empowerment. In the opposite, those approaching hypnosis for their pure interest in hypnosis itself, literally seem to have none of this - no ego, no need for acceptance or approval, no need to impress, or for empowerment.

This has long been an interesting observation of mine that when I discuss it with other trainers or educators seem to also agree 100%. Not good or bad, right or wrong, just simply an documented observation. I think this is at the root of the street hypnosis situation and approach as you have pointed out. These needs and ego or status driven elements are what I think leads to the loud uproars, unwillingness to listen to others with more experience that offer great info and advice, and the so-called measuring contest that seems to have come up here.

Now I understand this is a magic-based forum so we have to understand this when trying to have serious discussions about hypnosis here on this forum. Again, I'm not knocking this or these people as I know there are plenty here, just simply pointing out an observation. I also believe that is why Anthony and several others that have recognized, identified and have created products and resources to this niche market (magicians with an interest in hypnosis) are doing so well, have positioned themselves as the authority to these people, and are most highly regarded. I respect Anthony and others that have done this, as it is very smart business. But while I do think Anthony (just using him as an example, do not mean to pick on him or single him out) and some others do have respect for the art and science of hypnosis and those who are skilled in all professional facets of the industry, this doesn't seem to be shared by their followers or as part of their education as far as I can see.

dmkraig has offered some great perspectives that I hope will be understood an considered by those learning.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 17, 2011 01:05PM)
MindPro, although I've not seen any sociological evidence to support this, I think your analysis of the approach of the magician to hypnosis has merit. I would take it a bit deeper.

According to the psychologist Jung, the instinctual but difficult goal for each of us is to become unique individuals, what he called the process of individuation. He gives the journey of the hero, as presented in so many myths, as metaphoric examples of this personal journey.

In Western society, this journey of individuation is different for men and women. For men, part of this journey is finding personal power. When boyswho live in a world of being half the height of adults, being told always to say "yes" to their "elders," and never acting out their personal issuestry to become independent individuals, the immediate technique is often power. Beating up younger and weaker siblings is not uncommon, sometimes leading to extra-familial bullying behavior. But how can you get a "one-up" on people who have more training, more knowledge, more height, and more strength? For some boys (and it's usually males), the answer is magic. They know something the elders don't know! That gives them a self-perceived advantage. The Greek gods can overtake the Titans!

Eventually, however, the younger gods become adults. They have the knowledge and training, height and strength to get personal power and become an individual. As a result, they no longer need magic. Indeed, in my observations, lots of boys start with magic, but as they become adults, they abandon it. The one-upsmanship magic gives them isn't needed, so it's left with Scylla and Charybdis.

Some of the young men, however, continue with magic. It's not longer a means of gaining personal power and control. Now it becomes a means of entertainment of others in order to achieve other benefits, ranging from adulation to extra money. Magic is no longer seen as a source of power over others.

For some, looking for a system to once again get that power over others becomes a necessary tool for self-empowerment and individuation. Upon seeing the apparent ability of using hypnosis to do this, some of the (now) young men want to use it for that purpose. Used to reading an instruction sheet on how to work with gaffed cards and boxes, and then using prepared patter with their magic, they look for the SAME THING with hypnosis. The patter becomes a "hypnosis script" and the gaffed box becomes an instant induction.

Thus, in many cases--especially for younger performers--the purpose of street hypnosis is to exhibit power over others and further feelings of security and personal power. That is why they focus on sticking hands to poles and making living statues: it shows their power over others. It is an attempt to find personal power externally rather than internally.

That is why I strongly encourage people who are interested in hypnosis of any kind to get training. Training is generally not in the form of scripts only, but rather gives insight into the nature of mind, how people function, and gives an added knowledge to the student. This helps them achieve personal power along with added skills. It also helps them become better hypnotists, and I would like to see more of them as it will raise the level of professionalism for all of us.

To sum, by observation I see that younger men who get into hypnosis by way of magic tend to do so (albeit not always) as a way of compensating for personal insecurities and dealing with person issues of feelings of powerlessness and inferiority. Just as most boys who get into magic eventually abandon it as the external need for self-empowerment fades, most of those younger men who get into hypnosis as a way of continuing individuation eventually leave hypnosis when it's no longer necessary to support their feelings of equality and self-independence.

Most of these young men don't want training (and come up with innumerable excuses/reasons for not obtaining it) because it would take them off their journey. Odysseus had to visit Circe and stay with her to personally evolve. Leaving early by understanding the purpose of being with her would not allow him to fully internalize the lesson.

On the other hand, there are some young men who think that hypnosis is just amazing and want to learn everything about it. My encouraging them to get training will only help. There are also men who are slightly (and not slightly) older who are looking to expand their performing skills. Some have posted on these forums. They usually performed magic (as a pro or amateur) for some time and are looking for other things. My guess is that Anthony is a member of this group. He wrote that he never stuck a person's hand to a pole and I believe him. He is an adult (i.e., has reached a certain level of individuation) and doesn't need to have power over others.

I would contend it's important to differentiate between the needs of these two different groups, those who want to extend their entertaining abilities and those who want to do this in order to walk further down the path of the Hero and deal with their personal growth issues. One is neither better or worse than the other, just different. As I wrote, I'd like to see better hypnotists all around, and by encouraging study, practice, and training, I hope it does so. And of course, there are probably people who come to hypnosis by way of magic who fit into neither group.

So how does standing up to those on the Hero's journey help them? The same way Circe and Polyphemus helped in the Tales of Brave Ulysses. To develop personal power you need someone to stand up to as you exert external power and become the Cream of the crop (with apologies for the ancient music references). Or put another way, for Superman to become Superman he needed Lex Luthor. For Batman to become Batman he needed the Joker.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (May 17, 2011 04:25PM)
The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breaking-the-law/Content?oid=932255
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 18, 2011 03:40PM)
Very interesting dmkraig, I hadn't probed into it to that extent but it seems to be consistent with my findings and with the other's I've discussed this with. This would seem to be consistent with some of the attitudes here too and more than likely the basis for much of the difference in approach and understanding of advice and information being presented.

I've also noticed that I rarely find women seeking information, advice or training to ever have the ego, attitudes and need for acceptance, peer support and the bonding over their attitudes and "being right" in their opinions and assessments. I'm certain that this as you pointed out is due to their lack of insecurities and lack of a need to feed their ego, confidence or non-existence "macho".

I have spent much time studying attitudes and behaviors and find this very interesting as it better allows one to understand the reasons and "why's" that some of the things and perceptions exist. I also feel as a hypnotist these are prime tools that can only help and enhance your performance and abilities. Although rarely discussed here in this forum, audience reading and people skills are essential to any stage hypnosis performance.
Message: Posted by: Damon Reinbold (May 18, 2011 04:39PM)
In fact, audience reading and people skills are MOST importnat to any hypnosis, stage or otherwise. Rapport is the first thing needed and people reading is a major step in that direction.
Hypnosis is NOT getting people to do what you want (a gun to the head will do that). It is more a two way street between the hypnotist and the subject (what a bad word for the participant). These street hypnotists need to study some Erickson, don't you think?

Damon
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (May 18, 2011 05:10PM)
Mindpro, I don't think it's a question of women have a lack of insecurities. Rather, girls and young women generally (and every person is different) have different insecurities than do boys and young men.

Damon, you don't even need a gun to get people to do what you want. You can just use a powerful magic word: "Please..." I agree that developing rapport quickly (see the book "Instant Rapport" by Brooks) is valuable, as is reading people, so you know which people are more likely to be open to you and follow your suggestions. However, street hypnosis is based on direct suggestion, not Ericksonian permissive styles of induction with metaphor.

I would also agree that hypnosis is cooperative. The thing is, most people spend so much time doing what advertisements say, what their parents say, what their teachers say, what their employers say, what government officials say, what religious authorities say (well, in the U.S.), what doctors say, etc., that they're used to obeying direct commands and suggestions. I can walk into any crowd and within three minutes have someone just give me their wallet. It's easy to do. However, you have to have rapport.

So while I would encourage any hypnotist to study the three Es: Elman and Erickson, and Estabrooks, I'd also encourage the study of Ronning, Hunter, Bandler, Andreas, Zeig, Lankton, Stockwell, Rossi, Mottin, Hilgard, Caprio, Boyne, Kein, Hull, Bramwell, Arons, James, Furst, Wolberg, Nongard, Jacquin and so many others. However for someone looking to learn street hypnosis, I wouldn't focus on Erickson.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (May 18, 2011 05:14PM)
Very true. It is this kind of stuff that leads to success and both a hypnotist and performer, not necessarily the things you have subjects do once suggestible. Erickson should be a part of all beginning hypnosis training and education. It's not about the "power" the hypnotist has over the subject as many would like to think, but as you pointed out a two way relationship built on this and several key factors.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (May 18, 2011 05:39PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-17 17:25, quicknotist wrote:
The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breaking-the-law/Content?oid=932255
[/quote]

That fascinates me thanks for posting it. Nothing is new!
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (May 18, 2011 09:51PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-18 18:39, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-17 17:25, quicknotist wrote:
The debate about Street Hypnosis - We've been here before, in 1922
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/breaking-the-law/Content?oid=932255
[/quote]

That fascinates me thanks for posting it. Nothing is new!
[/quote]

You're welcome. Personally, I've always preferred the classic image of a "travelling medicine show" type of hypnotist over one who works around outdoor pub tables.