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Topic: What if everyone moved to the USA?
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 11, 2011 01:18PM)
There are places in the world that many a sane person would flee, and there are places in the world that are very attractive.

Why do so many people want to live in the United States? What makes this the land of opportunity?

What would happen if the whole world crossed the border and settled down in the United States? The population density of Java is 2,000 people per square mile. The area of the United States is 3.8 million square miles. If the United States had the population density of Java, it would contain 7,600,000,000 people. So the whole world's population would fit!

But is that really the best solution for the problems that beset the world? Not everyone would want to become an American, and many people undoubtedly like living in their own country.

Wouldn't it be easier for the world's peoples to adopt the framework that has allowed the United States to become successful, i.e. the Constitution? It's all there in simple language. It's only a few pages - unlike the EU's monstrous constitution.

But of course, the US should not impose its Constitution on the rest of the world by force, in order to "make" them follow a successful "business plan." That would be colonialism, wouldn't it?

So they'll either have to pick up and move to the US in order to experience the benefits of a free market and the rule of law, or adopt the same principles for themselves.

Not that I see this happening any time soon.

Woland
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (May 11, 2011 01:35PM)
The separation of church and state is enough to sour the milk for most...
Message: Posted by: Doug Higley (May 11, 2011 01:43PM)
I read where the whole world's population would fit easily in a portion Texas with a density of NY City living.
Message: Posted by: HerbLarry (May 11, 2011 01:55PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:35, Salguod Nairb wrote:
The separation of church and state is enough to sour the milk for most...
[/quote]

The what? :rotf:
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (May 11, 2011 01:55PM)
If everyone moved to the US it would be more crowded here.

That's probably a bad thing.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 11, 2011 02:04PM)
For the same reasons the Americans moved there.
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (May 11, 2011 02:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:55, HerbLarry wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:35, Salguod Nairb wrote:
The separation of church and state is enough to sour the milk for most...
[/quote]

The what? :rotf:
[/quote]

Did I stutter?
Message: Posted by: HerbLarry (May 11, 2011 02:11PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 15:07, Salguod Nairb wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:55, HerbLarry wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:35, Salguod Nairb wrote:
The separation of church and state is enough to sour the milk for most...
[/quote]

The what? :rotf:
[/quote]

Did I stutter?
[/quote]

Don't know...do you?
The Middle East...is that Virginia?
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (May 11, 2011 02:34PM)
Just to the right...
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 11, 2011 03:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:18, Woland wrote:
There are places in the world that many a sane person would flee, and there are places in the world that are very attractive.

Why do so many people want to live in the United States? What makes this the land of opportunity?
[/quote]
Why do even more prefer to go elsewhere, given the opportunity? E.g.:

http://www.rikvin.com/press-releases/singapore-tops-most-popular-immigration-destination-survey/

Singapore has remained the top destination in the world in terms of attracting immigrants and workers, beating other neighbouring and western economic powerhouse, a recent Gallup survey told.

The survey, which aims to calculate the member countries’ Potential Net Migration Index (PNMI), was conducted among 350,000 people in some 148 countries from 2007 to 2010.
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (May 11, 2011 03:18PM)
That is a valid point. "Come to the U.S. and be unemployed and lose your house."

I guess it doesn't have the same ring to it as "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (May 11, 2011 03:56PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:55, S2000magician wrote:
If everyone moved to the US it would be more crowded here.

That's probably a bad thing.
[/quote]

Not if we put them all in Texas.
Message: Posted by: ClintonMagus (May 11, 2011 04:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:43, Doug Higley wrote:
I read where the whole world's population would fit easily in a portion Texas with a density of NY City living.
[/quote]

Actually, I think that would make Texas twelve times denser than NYC...
Message: Posted by: critter (May 11, 2011 04:33PM)
I would counter the topic title with, what if none of our ancestors had been allowed to move to the US?
Message: Posted by: gdw (May 11, 2011 05:12PM)
Woland, I think you're confused. You seem to be describing a mythical land of opportunity and free markets, but you keep mentioning the united states.

Speaking of which, does anyone here still consider america the "freeest" country in the world?
Message: Posted by: mvmagic (May 11, 2011 05:45PM)
I've enjoyed my time in United States. Beautiful country and a lot of things I really miss. And many great friends. But I wouldn't want to move there.

I think everyone just need to accept the fact that the perfect country does not exist. I would love to live in a country where church and state are kept separate but I love living in a country where more tax money is spent on education and healthcare instead of military. I could go on and pick things I find appealing, from many countries.
Message: Posted by: critter (May 11, 2011 06:00PM)
More honest (and/or stereotypical) travel slogans:
Southeast Asia: "Nice weather when it's not hurricaning!"
Australia: "Some like it hot. Really hot. And filled with deadly animals."
Canada: "Welcome! (As long as you're white, rich, and support feminism.) Eh."
Afghanistan: "Duck!"
Cambodia: "Duck! No, not there!"
Tibet: "Duck! Rama lama ding dong."
America: "If you ain't with us, you're agin' us!"
Ireland: "If you ain't with us, have a Guinness!"
Scotland: "Guhnuhhnuhnfrnaakh. Ha! Aaa's roit! Wanna' foit abait et?"
England: "No smiling."
Norway: "Have some fish. And a sweater."
Message: Posted by: mvmagic (May 11, 2011 06:11PM)
Man, I didn't know poultry is such a problem in certain countries... ;)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 11, 2011 07:25PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 16:08, balducci wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:18, Woland wrote:
There are places in the world that many a sane person would flee, and there are places in the world that are very attractive.

Why do so many people want to live in the United States? What makes this the land of opportunity?
[/quote]
Why do even more prefer to go elsewhere, given the opportunity? E.g.:

http://www.rikvin.com/press-releases/singapore-tops-most-popular-immigration-destination-survey/
[/quote]

As the article you cited points out, more people DON'T want to go to Singapore("the United States...was still the preferred destination among workers...") However, the PRESS RELEASE FROM A SINGAPORE-BASED BUSINESS SETUP COMPANY frames the list on a percentage basis, making it essentially impossible for the USA to finish ahead of Singapore. If fifty times as many people wanted to come to the USA as Singapore, we'd still rank behind them.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 11, 2011 07:26PM)
A million new legal permanent residents per year, and the line keeps backing up...
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (May 11, 2011 07:38PM)
If there's 1,000,000,000 people in China, and 1,000,000,000 people in India I suppose that I would have to share my small townhouse with a lot of others.
Message: Posted by: critter (May 11, 2011 07:40PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 20:38, Al Angello wrote:
If there's 1,000,000,000 people in China, and 1,000,000,000 people in India I suppose that I would have to share my small townhouse with a lot of others.
[/quote]

Sounds like my first apartment.
Message: Posted by: gdw (May 11, 2011 08:44PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 19:00, critter wrote:
More honest (and/or stereotypical) travel slogans:
Southeast Asia: "Nice weather when it's not hurricaning!"
Australia: "Some like it hot. Really hot. And filled with deadly animals."
Canada: "Welcome! (As long as you're white, rich, and support feminism.) Eh."
Afghanistan: "Duck!"
Cambodia: "Duck! No, not there!"
Tibet: "Duck! Rama lama ding dong."
America: "If you ain't with us, you're agin' us!"
Ireland: "If you ain't with us, have a Guinness!"
Scotland: "Guhnuhhnuhnfrnaakh. Ha! Aaa's roit! Wanna' foit abait et?"
England: "No smiling."
Norway: "Have some fish. And a sweater."
[/quote]

Sad as it is, I honestly don't get the parentheses in the canada one.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 11, 2011 08:47PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 20:26, LobowolfXXX wrote:
A million new legal permanent residents per year, and the line keeps backing up...
[/quote]
With all due respect, 0.3% of the US population doesn't seem like a whole lot to me.
Message: Posted by: critter (May 11, 2011 08:57PM)
Tacos rock.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 11, 2011 09:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 21:47, landmark wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 20:26, LobowolfXXX wrote:
A million new legal permanent residents per year, and the line keeps backing up...
[/quote]
With all due respect, 0.3% of the US population doesn't seem like a whole lot to me.
[/quote]

If what we're discussing is the desirability of the United States to people of other nations, expressing it as a percentage of the US population doesn't seem particularly relevant to me. I could see it as relevant if the question was, "What's the appropriate number of new legal permanent residents to permit annually?"
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 11, 2011 09:36PM)
Just anticipating.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 11, 2011 09:42PM)
Just seems like kind of an arbitrary way to argue that the USA doesn't allow enough new permanent residents. But I suppose the raw numbers are arbitrary, too. When viewed in terms of population (as was done a while back in another thread), the USA doesn't look particularly welcoming as compared to Canada; on the other hand, when viewed in terms of population density (another way the numbers could be filtered), the opposite could be argued.
Message: Posted by: jdmagic357 (May 11, 2011 10:35PM)
I think anyone wanting residency in America should be allowed, so long as they signed a waver to all social services for them and there families, for at least 10 generations. That would put the issue of "welfare drain" to rest once and for all.

For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair. Having said that, it seems that other countries make it extremely difficult to join the citizenry. Why not just adopt the same sort of requirements?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 11, 2011 10:45PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:35, jdmagic357 wrote:
For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair.
[/quote]

Of course, we pay them, too.

Anticipated response: Their pay is a mere pittance.

Rebuttal: It's enough that they go far out of their way to take the deal.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 11, 2011 10:56PM)
I heard that the USA has four hundred thousand foreign troops there now.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (May 11, 2011 11:33PM)
If everybody moved to the US, we'd have:
A) a massive housing shortage (but at least it would shore up housing prices)
B) a big problem with traffic jams due to having really poor public transportation
C) a lot of overflowing sewage lines
D) a lot of brown outs due to a poorly maintained and insufficient power grid
E) a whole bunch of fantastic and empty beaches, forests, and mountain ranges to camp on in South America, Europe, Asia, and the rest of the world.
Message: Posted by: jdmagic357 (May 12, 2011 07:06AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:45, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:35, jdmagic357 wrote:
For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair.
[/quote]

Of course, we pay them, too.

Anticipated response: Their pay is a mere pittance.

Rebuttal: It's enough that they go far out of their way to take the deal.
[/quote]

The more pertinent part of my post, was the exploitation of foreign workers. When we abuse others, we should expect some backlash. Most people won't just sit and take it. That is if they have any courage.

Personally, if I was invited to work say in Canada, and was somehow enamored with the country, and sought to stay, I would think that after some time, I might be afforded that opportunity? If not, it might make me a little mad. Maybe even mad enough to stay illegally? I don't know, I'm just speculating?
Message: Posted by: gdw (May 12, 2011 07:43AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 08:06, jdmagic357 wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:45, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:35, jdmagic357 wrote:
For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair.
[/quote]

Of course, we pay them, too.

Anticipated response: Their pay is a mere pittance.

Rebuttal: It's enough that they go far out of their way to take the deal.
[/quote]

The more pertinent part of my post, was the exploitation of foreign workers. When we abuse others, we should expect some backlash. Most people won't just sit and take it. That is if they have any courage.

Personally, if I was invited to work say in Canada, and was somehow enamored with the country, and sought to stay, I would think that after some time, I might be afforded that opportunity? If not, it might make me a little mad. Maybe even mad enough to stay illegally? I don't know, I'm just speculating?
[/quote]

I'm sorry, that made me giggle 'I'm so mad at canada, I'm gonna just STAY there. That'll teach 'em.'
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 12, 2011 08:40AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 08:06, jdmagic357 wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:45, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:35, jdmagic357 wrote:
For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair.
[/quote]

Of course, we pay them, too.

Anticipated response: Their pay is a mere pittance.

Rebuttal: It's enough that they go far out of their way to take the deal.
[/quote]

The more pertinent part of my post, was the exploitation of foreign workers. When we abuse others, we should expect some backlash. Most people won't just sit and take it. That is if they have any courage.

Personally, if I was invited to work say in Canada, and was somehow enamored with the country, and sought to stay, I would think that after some time, I might be afforded that opportunity? If not, it might make me a little mad. Maybe even mad enough to stay illegally? I don't know, I'm just speculating?
[/quote]

Personally, I think that if economic opportunities were so bad here that I were willing to uproot myself and travel hundreds of miles to work in Canada, I might be glad that I had the opportunity, even if it were only temporary. But I, too, am just speculating.
Message: Posted by: gdw (May 12, 2011 08:55AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 09:40, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 08:06, jdmagic357 wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:45, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 23:35, jdmagic357 wrote:
For now, the fact that we invite people of other nations here to do our work, then expect them to just go home when were done using them, seems to me a little unfair.
[/quote]

Of course, we pay them, too.

Anticipated response: Their pay is a mere pittance.

Rebuttal: It's enough that they go far out of their way to take the deal.
[/quote]

The more pertinent part of my post, was the exploitation of foreign workers. When we abuse others, we should expect some backlash. Most people won't just sit and take it. That is if they have any courage.

Personally, if I was invited to work say in Canada, and was somehow enamored with the country, and sought to stay, I would think that after some time, I might be afforded that opportunity? If not, it might make me a little mad. Maybe even mad enough to stay illegally? I don't know, I'm just speculating?
[/quote]

Personally, I think that if economic opportunities were so bad here that I were willing to uproot myself and travel hundreds of miles to work in Canada, I might be glad that I had the opportunity, even if it were only temporary. But I, too, am just speculating.
[/quote]

That's the way plenty look to america, but opportunity to do so "legally" is just as sparse, often more so, than the economic opportunities in their own countries.
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 12, 2011 09:32AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 20:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 16:08, balducci wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-05-11 14:18, Woland wrote:
There are places in the world that many a sane person would flee, and there are places in the world that are very attractive.

Why do so many people want to live in the United States? What makes this the land of opportunity?
[/quote]
Why do even more prefer to go elsewhere, given the opportunity? E.g.:

http://www.rikvin.com/press-releases/singapore-tops-most-popular-immigration-destination-survey/
[/quote]

As the article you cited points out, more people DON'T want to go to Singapore("the United States...was still the preferred destination among workers...") However, the PRESS RELEASE FROM A SINGAPORE-BASED BUSINESS SETUP COMPANY frames the list on a percentage basis, making it essentially impossible for the USA to finish ahead of Singapore. If fifty times as many people wanted to come to the USA as Singapore, we'd still rank behind them.
[/quote]
In that case let us not forget to note that the survey was conducted by Gallup, a U.S. firm. :)

Anyway, my main point was that more actually want to move someplace else. That still appears to be the case. See this, for instance:

http://www.ocscglobal.com/index.php?task=fullart&PID=61

About 165 million would like to move to the U.S. But more (200 million) would prefer to go to Canada, Britain, France (all three with around 45 million potential migrants); Spain (35 million) and Saudi Arabia (30 million). Note that those five countries have a total population now of 230 million, versus the approximate 310 million population of the U.S.

It's a complicated subject, I know, and there are many ways to compare the numbers. I won't claim to know what the best way to do that is.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 12, 2011 09:50AM)
I agree, and I don't think anyone would dispute, that it is not the case that more people want to live in the USA than in every other country in the world combined. Clearly, though, from these data, the USA is by far the preferred choice of destination countries - ahead of numbers 2-4 combined. Again, if the question is desirability of a destination country, what insight does the existing population of the destination country have to do with it? The only reason to include such data is to somehow give the illusion that the desirability of a destination country with a large population is somehow less than it is. In fact, if annoying, the reverse is true; one reason for the existing population disparities is that among the comparison group, the USA has LONG been the preferred destination country.

To put it another way, let's say we had a country called Magicville, with a population of 5 people. And two person wanted to move to Magicville from another country, while a hundred million people wanted to move to the USA. The issue isn't the data (Gallup's fine with me). If Gallup says the numbers are 2 and 100,000,000, ok. The issue is the suggestion that the data support the idea that more people want to move to Magicville (40% population increase) than the USA (33% population increase).
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 12, 2011 09:53AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 10:32, balducci wrote:



Anyway, my main point was that more actually want to move someplace else. That still appears to be the case. See this, for instance:

http://www.ocscglobal.com/index.php?task=fullart&PID=61

About 165 million would like to move to the U.S. But more (200 million) would prefer to go to Canada, Britain, France (all three with around 45 million potential migrants); Spain (35 million) and Saudi Arabia (30 million). Note that those five countries have a total population now of 230 million, versus the approximate 310 million population of the U.S.
[/quote]

What "someplace" (singular) is that?
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 12, 2011 10:29AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 10:50, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Again, if the question is desirability of a destination country, what insight does the existing population of the destination country have to do with it? The only reason to include such data is to somehow give the illusion that the desirability of a destination country with a large population is somehow less than it is.
[/quote]
If you have two objectively equally desirable nations attracting immigrants, but there are many more people living in one than the other, that could affect the number of people who ultimately go there. For reasons of family ties if nothing else.

Of course, I do not know how we could properly account for this. But it should not be ignored.
Message: Posted by: jdmagic357 (May 12, 2011 11:21PM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-12 08:43, gdw wrote:
I'm sorry, that made me giggle 'I'm so mad at canada, I'm gonna just STAY there. That'll teach 'em.'
[/quote]

Good to see others can see the humor in some of my posts. :)
Message: Posted by: Woland (May 14, 2011 03:42PM)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiDrpWslv8&feature=player_embedded]Americans at their best.[/url]
Message: Posted by: jdmagic357 (May 16, 2011 08:13AM)
[quote]
On 2011-05-14 16:42, Woland wrote:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYiDrpWslv8&feature=player_embedded]Americans at their best.[/url]
[/quote]

Not our best, but a definite example, of how we pull together, in times of trouble. Thanks for posting it. :)