(Close Window)
Topic: Dove Fly Back
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 17, 2011 07:18AM)
Dear Friends,
how many different ways of training exist for the fly back? What do You prefer? Is the "lack of food method" dangerous for the dove? What method requires less time to master?
Message: Posted by: Markgician (Jun 17, 2011 04:51PM)
Mattia

Dan Sperry's method is superb if you combine it with other training methods, but then again, flyback birds in an act has factors to be considered, like proper lighting.

All the best,
Mark
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jun 17, 2011 04:53PM)
I like Tony Clark's method.
Message: Posted by: Markgician (Jun 17, 2011 04:54PM)
Dan Sperry's method is superb if you combine it with other training methods, but then again, flyback birds in an act has factors to be considered, like proper lighting, if you're talking about doing a s****e toss, then proper lighting would really be a must, the bird should turn around and look for you and only you right after it is tossed or produced via s***** toss.

All the best,
Mark
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 17, 2011 08:56PM)
I further train my birds under absolutely impractical conditions once they know what to do (That is, when they do ausbolutely automatic flybacks). I set up as many distractions as possible - food, perches, etc - as to make sure that, no matter what, they WILL come to me.

As a result they don't do only flybacks: they fly to wherever I am at and won't rest until they're with me. This allows me to use them outdoors without any worries. Sure this is not 100% fail-proof, but, again, they are so well trained that when I whistle they come to me without thinking twice.

For starters, Sperry's method combiner with Tony Clark's is the way to go.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 17, 2011 11:58PM)
In what does Tony Clark method consist? Can I find it on a dvd? Does the cafè rulement allow us to talk about that method in details? I explain You the method I'm using now:I start with the hand to hand training until the can fly 180 degrees around me. Than I start tossing them with their head looking at me. When they learned to be tossed,to fly 180 degrees and to return to my hand, I put a 500 W lamp shining in front of me,so the dove can't see in the light and fly back. When the dove come back to my hand I let he eat. Then day by day I try without the lamp. Could it be a good way to train them?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 18, 2011 06:26AM)
Mattia, while we don't mind helping you, I would suggest you invest in some dove videos. You can watch them over and over and pick out what you want and you'll always have a reference. Some good ones are Tony Clarks unmasked and unmasked 2, Andy Amyx doves 101, the encyclopedia of dove magic, and while a bit pricey..Greg Frewins complete course in dove magic. There are many others.

To answer your question though, your training method seems to be fine although I don't agree with tossing the dove out backwards with it's head facing you. It doesn't look natural when the audience sees it. A truly trained dove should come out facing away from you and turn to return.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Jun 18, 2011 07:18AM)
Previous dissuscions:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=415005&forum=13&2
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=373805&forum=13&18
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=294665&forum=13&2
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=273434&forum=13&5
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=268519&forum=13&9
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=224606&forum=13&11
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=186917&forum=13&9
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=183343&forum=13&9
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=177458&forum=13&9

You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEYL90I8UpQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23hRwyUBWeo&feature=fvwrel
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 18, 2011 08:07AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-18 07:26, Dave Scribner wrote:
To answer your question though, your training method seems to be fine although I don't agree with tossing the dove out backwards with it's head facing you. It doesn't look natural when the audience sees it. A truly trained dove should come out facing away from you and turn to return.
[/quote]

I think he meant doing this for the dove's first long tosses. Although Shimada used to produce doves with their heads facing towards himself, which despite allowing a rather easier and quicker "loading" of the bird on the "you-know-where", it truly ruins its feathers. And yeah, doesn't look any natural when the producion happens, but I kinda digress on this one, since to the lay audience it truly looks like a pair of gloves morphs into a live bird when tossed into the air, hah.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 18, 2011 01:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-18 07:26, Dave Scribner wrote:
Mattia, while we don't mind helping you, I would suggest you invest in some dove videos. You can watch them over and over and pick out what you want and you'll always have a reference. Some good ones are Tony Clarks unmasked and unmasked 2, Andy Amyx doves 101, the encyclopedia of dove magic, and while a bit pricey..Greg Frewins complete course in dove magic. There are many others.

To answer your question though, your training method seems to be fine although I don't agree with tossing the dove out backwards with it's head facing you. It doesn't look natural when the audience sees it. A truly trained dove should come out facing away from you and turn to return.
[/quote]

Dear Dave,
All the advices You and other magicians gave me are very helpful and important. I've only put the discussion about the fly back in another topic,so it could be useful also for other magicians. It was in "first approach with my doves", so I throught to make a more appropriate topic. I ask many things, but understand all the answers. Maybe other magicians need this advices and with that new topic they can find it easily. About the "reverse" tossing, I use it only for the first part of the training: I toss them from my hands, not from s...
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 18, 2011 07:54PM)
Yeah, doing S. T.'s with the bird "reversed" absolutely blows. Plus, the bird will have less room for breathing and should be produced ASAP - something you don't need to worry about if the bird is loaded the "classic" way. As for the feathers being ruined, just use something to guide the bird, like Andy Amyx shows on his Doves 101 DVD. This can be made out of an old X-ray plastic.
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Jun 18, 2011 09:18PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-17 21:56, Fábio DeRose wrote:
I further train my birds under absolutely impractical conditions once they know what to do (That is, when they do ausbolutely automatic flybacks). I set up as many distractions as possible - food, perches, etc - as to make sure that, no matter what, they WILL come to me.

As a result they don't do only flybacks: they fly to wherever I am at and won't rest until they're with me. This allows me to use them outdoors without any worries. Sure this is not 100% fail-proof, but, again, they are so well trained that when I whistle they come to me without thinking twice.

For starters, Sperry's method combiner with Tony Clark's is the way to go.
[/quote]

Fabio, man we would love to see some video of this. I need this whistle technique in my repertoire. I will be air mailing my birds to you for summer camp, whistling flyback 101. Would just love to see some bird work... please share.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 19, 2011 12:00PM)
Hey Chris,

I'll try to get some of my bird work on film soon.Thi month's been crazy busy, but only a couple stage shows.

BTW, for the whistle thing I start training them as soon as they begin doing flyback training. Whe they are about to turn I whistle and let them come. Then I whistle again as they get their reward. Takes areal while for them to get the idea, but it sure works.
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Jun 19, 2011 12:05PM)
You can Pm me any links when it is done if you don't want it public I understand, If I can get your lattitude and longitude, I will let my birds out of the aviary, and have them start flying your way for their training....LOL. Look forwaRD to the footage.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 19, 2011 02:16PM)
Mattia, I understand but there really isn't a reason to start a new topic with each of your questions if you are just posting them to make a current topic. You can add to an existing topic and bring it to the foreground.

Fabio, I realize he meant the reverse tossing as a beginning but in my opinion, this requires double training. The bird learns to fly directly back because it sees the magician right away. Turning it around after that means it has to learn all over again. I totally agree with you about the damaged feathers with the reverse load. They not only get ruffled but have a good chance of being broken. I know Shimada did it this way and far be it from me to question a master like him, I just don't like it.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 21, 2011 12:51PM)
Is it the s. tossing dangerous for the dove's feet?
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 21, 2011 02:45PM)
Not if you make sure that their nails are well trimmed and the s. is made of good quality f****c - as in the kind that does not let nails easily catch on.

You can further prevent any accident by adding some black gaffer's tape (Or whatever color you need) underneath the place where the bird is loaded. That is not absolutely necessary, though.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 21, 2011 02:54PM)
Is it necessary to clip their nails? I am not able to do this and I know it's very easy to cut their flesh.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 21, 2011 05:03PM)
Mattia, all that is necessary is that you cut the very tip of the nail so it isn't sharp and yes it's necessary. It not only stops the nails from catching on the material whether in a sleeve or a dove bag, but they keep growing and if you don't trim them, they will curl and can cause infections to the birds. All you have to do it be careful not to cut into the blood line which is very visable in the nail. Always keep some nail quick handy just in case you do nick the line. A small dab of nail quick (or flour and water if you can't get the quick) will stop the bleeding. If you'd rather not clip the nails, you can use an emery board or nail file to just remove the tip of the nail.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 22, 2011 06:54AM)
One of my doves is without the last part of the feet(including nails). I don't know why,but I think it's something congenital. He's got some problems in balance,but I use it anyway(It only took more time for him to learn). The "cut" is very precise and symmetrical so I don't think it's caused by the farmer who treated him badly. Now the dove learned how to balance himself also when he's on my hands,and he never fly away,so I think I can use it anyway in my act. What is your opinion? Do You know why?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 22, 2011 10:16PM)
If it's a precise cut, in all probability there was something wrong with it before you got it and a vet did an amputation. It's nothing to worry about and wouldn't have anything to do with balance. Dove balance is dependent primarily on the tail.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 23, 2011 01:44AM)
He has got some problems in balance because he slips on my hands. Another thing quite strange is that my female have not made any egg yet.
Starting from march, one of my dove started cooing and going round the other. The other didn't do the "coo" so I think she's a female. So I put some straw inside the cage, and I made a nest for them. The female didn't lay a single egg. Could they be too young?
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 24, 2011 11:44PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-23 02:44, mattia wrote:
The female didn't lay a single egg. Could they be too young?
[/quote]
How old are they? Sometimes they don't lay until one year or older.

Are you sure you have a pair? Sometimes the doves can't even tell who's a male or female until babies happen.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 25, 2011 02:07AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-25 00:44, Libis wrote:

How old are they? Sometimes they don't lay until one year or older.

Are you sure you have a pair? Sometimes the doves can't even tell who's a male or female until babies happen.
[/quote]
I don't know how old are they, but I think they are quite young. I heard that old doves have got a little dark spot under the eyes. Mine don't have it, but I'm not sure that this method works. When I bought them I asked for young doves, but I'm not sure they are. One of my dove coos and bows and the other makes no sound. I hope the male is able to distinguish a female from another male. Handling them, I discovered that the male has got strong wing's muscles and the other is quite weak. It's quite probable that the second one is a female. Are there other methods to distinguish them?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 25, 2011 06:04AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-25 00:44, Libis wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-06-23 02:44, mattia wrote:
The female didn't lay a single egg. Could they be too young?
[/quote]
How old are they? Sometimes they don't lay until one year or older.

Are you sure you have a pair? Sometimes the doves can't even tell who's a male or female until babies happen.[/quote]

Sorry, this is incorrect. Female doves can lay eggs beginning at 6 months although they are usually not fertile eggs. As for them not knowing if they are male or female, gendre doesn't mean anything to them. They are born with the instincts necessary to mate and lay eggs.

Mattia, not all females lay eggs. There is nothing you can do about it. I've had females go through their entire life and never lay an egg. It's kind of interesting. A female can lay an egg even if it never meets another bird. Two females will lay 4 eggs at a time, non of course are fertile. A male and female pair will lay 2 eggs at a time. Very often, one will hatch and the other will not. The laying cycle can begin as soon as the eggs hatch. If you remove the eggs from the nest right after they are layed, the doves will immediately lay another pair.

The color of the feet will tell you whether you have young or older birds. At birth, the feet are very pale. As they get older, the feet begin to get darker. Pink feet would indicate a young bird. Very dark feet indicates an old or older bird. Regardless of the age, you can train a dove. It just usually takes longer to train an older bird.

As for the dove with the injured foot, if it has troube perching, it is not because it is missing a "toe". It should compensating for that naturally. It sounds like their may be another issue and it might be worth taking it to a vet for a check up.

Sexing a dove is not an exact science. Some will tell you that a male coo's and bow's while a female does not. Females coo just like males. It is unlikely however that they will bow. If you watch the mating cycle, you will never see the female on top of the male. The female will very often peck the head of the male. Female doves are usually a little smaller than males. The only sure fire way to determine the sex is to have a vet do a check. That is expensive and unless you are really looking to raise more birds, it really isn't that important. There is a way to determine the sex but it takes a little experience. Doves have a bone from the neck to the bottom of the breast. Run the tip of your finger down this bone and if you feel it separate like a wish bone, it is pretty certain (again not guaranteed) that you have a female. The separation is where an egg starts. The bone in a male will not separate as much.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 25, 2011 01:43PM)
Dear Dave,
sorry for so many questions,but it'a very important for me to know everything about dove care and health,and about possible dangers in productions techniques. I bought some of the dvds you told me: Dan Sperry technical tosses,Andy Amyx Doves 101 and Tony Clark Behind The Seams.
I've also watched carefully the mating ritual of my doves. The male starts doing a particular sound and moving one of his wings. The femal flies on the perch near him and starts pecking his head. So I think I was right:she's a female.Regarding the feet's colour,unfortunatly I haven't another dove to compare with,so I attach a photo of the feets. The photo is made with a very good camera,so the colour is exactly the same as original. Could they be young? Regarding the dove with injured feet,he learned to perch correctly,but if I do a very fast move with my hand,he slips(because he hasn't got claws)and he open his wings to balance.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 25, 2011 02:42PM)
Mattia, first off, I misread your original post describing the missing portion of the feet. I thought only only "toe" was missing but I see now you are saying all the toes are missing. This will make it difficult for a bird to hold on. I might suggest you use this bird if you don't intend to display it perching on your finger or stage perch.

Looking at the photo of your doves feet, it is clear that you have an adult bird. I would guess that it is about 4 or 5 years old. The "scaling" look also indicates an adult bird.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 25, 2011 03:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-25 07:04, Dave Scribner wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-06-25 00:44, Libis wrote:

How old are they? Sometimes they don't lay until one year or older.

Are you sure you have a pair? Sometimes the doves can't even tell who's a male or female until babies happen.[/quote]

Sorry, this is incorrect. Female doves can lay eggs beginning at 6 months although they are usually not fertile eggs. As for them not knowing if they are male or female, gendre doesn't mean anything to them. They are born with the instincts necessary to mate and lay eggs.
[/quote]
Please note that I said sometimes, not always. I know that they can, I'm just saying that he might not see them right away. It depends on the bird. My hen wasn't ready to lay until she was 11 or 12 months old. I have friends with similar experiences.

As far as the birds not being able to tell, I've seen hens pair up and take turns trying to mate with each other and then end up with four eggs. (Dove hens lay two each.)
I also know people whose cocks have paired up and when given eggs from another pair took them and raised them. I only mentioned anything about gender being difficult to tell because he asked.
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 25, 2011 05:29PM)
[quote]As far as the birds not being able to tell, I've seen hens pair up and take turns trying to mate with each other and then end up with four eggs. (Dove hens lay two each.)
I also know people whose cocks have paired up and when given eggs from another pair took them and raised them. I only mentioned anything about gender being difficult to tell because he asked.[/quote]
Yes, two females will mate up but they still don't know they are females. It really isn't called mating though. They perform natural biological functions. They don't always lay two eggs each either. Some will lay one egg while the other lays 2. In many cases, a single female will lay eggs. I've had that happen quite a bit. Female doves are born with a specific number of eggs inside. When the conditions are right, they will lay those eggs whether there is a mate or not.Since males doves are very territorial and will fight if placed in the same cage, it would be extremely rare to have two of them and having them hatch. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it would be very rare.
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Jun 25, 2011 07:13PM)
In past years, I have seen some breeders have birds with lots of missing toes,happened due to freezing temperatures. I alwaYS like heating lamps in my aviaries. If you keep their water from freezing odds are good the doves wont freeze up as well. curous if your doves feet were froze at one point????
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 25, 2011 11:45PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-25 18:29, Dave Scribner wrote:
Since males doves are very territorial and will fight if placed in the same cage, it would be extremely rare to have two of them and having them hatch. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but it would be very rare.
[/quote]
Yeah, it is pretty unusual. I haven't been lucky enough to have males that get along. I've got a baby right now that I'm almost positive is male because he taunts his father and starts fights (with bars between them, any more I rarely let the babies fly in the same room as the parent cage because of this) and he's starting to try to bow coo (or bow squeak thus far lol.)
When they do, though, pretty interesting fostering stories have come out of it.

Oh, I was thinking on that female who hasn't laid. If she isn't just young, it can also have to do with lack of calcium and other nutritional issues or stress. It sounds like these birds are kind of new so maybe she's just not settled. Or she could be infertile.

That poor little guy with no toes. I always feel so bad when I see that they've had frostbite (or maybe a string injury--that can do about the same to bird feet.)
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 26, 2011 07:27AM)
Dear Friends,
here in Italy it's very difficoult to go under 0°C of temperature. Last year it went under 0°C for a week,but my doves didn't seem to suffer too much:they were only quite ruffled. When I bought them,my male was already with injured feet. As I said before,all the toes are exactly of the same lenght,so I think it's not caused by an injury. Maybe it's congenital or,as Dave said,a vet could have done an amputation. I attach a photo of the dove with injured feet,so You can see it. Anyway,he learned how to perch properly,and he seems to be a quite happy dove now!
Another question:I'm planning to buy other two couples of doves. My cage is very big(2m x 2m x 1m)so I would like to put them together in the same place. Could there be any problem with three males in the same cage,also if the cage is so big? Regarding eggs,my female in the past had a hypocalcemia:when I bought her,she used to peck the male's head searching for calcium in the feathers,but now she recovered:I let her eat some egg shells, vitamins and some grit,and I bought a good type of seed. Now she recovered completely,so I think that this is not the reason why she doesn't lay eggs. Maybe she doesn't lay eggs without any reason.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 26, 2011 09:36AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-26 08:27, mattia wrote:
Dear Friends,
Could there be any problem with three males in the same cage,also if the cage is so big? Regarding eggs,my female in the past had a hypocalcemia:when I bought her,she used to peck the male's head searching for calcium in the feathers,but now she recovered:I let her eat some egg shells, vitamins and some grit,and I bought a good type of seed. Now she recovered completely,so I think that this is not the reason why she doesn't lay eggs. Maybe she doesn't lay eggs without any reason.
[/quote]
Hi Mattia,
A lot of times even just two males don't get along. Especially when they have mates and nests to defend. My main male bird doesn't like to see another male in the same room flying loose on "his" bookshelf etc(he just has to put up with it though.) He even gets a bit aggressive with "strange" females. (She's his daughter, but once they hit a certain age the parents tend to act like they're any other bird outside their pair. If you're lucky, you might be able to get two pairs to get along in there, but if anybody has babies get the non-parents out as sometimes they will attack other birds' babies.

It's great that you recognized the problem and started her on eggshells for a bit. As to the calcium--is she still getting access to it on a daily basis, along with when you supplemented? I don't know what is available where you live, but here there are grits made with lots of calcium and minerals in them already. Or, if you eat a lot of eggs, giving her crushed eggshell with the normal grit would be fine.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 26, 2011 12:53PM)
Hi Libis,
My doves usually eat grit and eggshells and some times calcium supplements inside their meal.
Can a male kill or hurt seriously another male? Is it dangerous to let them live together or after a period of time they learn to live together? As I said before my cage is very big so there is enough space for every male. I heard about many magicians who put many doves inside the same cage. They usually don't hurt me when they peck, but I don't know if they are so aggressive that they could kill another bird.
How about my dove with injured feet? Have you seen the photo? What do You think about it?
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 26, 2011 02:02PM)
Males never learn to get along. In a big cage it could work, but once the lone dove has decided that the whole cage is his, there's almost no way of introducing another male, let alone two. I've seen doves that, raised without a cage, would think of their caretaker's living room as their territory, attacking any visitor.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 26, 2011 04:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-26 15:02, Fábio DeRose wrote:
Males never learn to get along. In a big cage it could work, but once the lone dove has decided that the whole cage is his, there's almost no way of introducing another male, let alone two. I've seen doves that, raised without a cage, would think of their caretaker's living room as their territory, attacking any visitor.
[/quote]
I agree. My first dove, Edmund, thinks that my whole bedroom is his. Especially the bookshelf. It was hard enough to get him to tolerate his mate sitting there, I don't see how I could ever get him to put up with a male.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 27, 2011 01:09AM)
But could a male kill another male?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 27, 2011 05:46AM)
Mattia, I think we answered this question but absolutely yes. The dominant male will continue to attack the lesser one and if left together, eventually a death will occur. Do not cage two males together.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 27, 2011 07:06AM)
Ok. How about buying 4 females? So there will be a male and five females. Will the male make a nest with each female or only with "his" female?
I attached a photo of my cage. Is it big enough to contain 6 doves?
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 27, 2011 08:16AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 08:06, mattia wrote:
Ok. How about buying 4 females? So there will be a male and five females. Will the male make a nest with each female or only with "his" female?
I attached a photo of my cage. Is it big enough to contain 6 doves?
[/quote]
You need nesting boxes if you're going to breed. Here's an easy kind to make: http://www.diamonddove.info/bird11d%20Ringneck_dove_nest_box.htm Or you can use an untippable dog bowl, but you will need to make sure that there is plenty of nesting material so the babies don't slip on the bottom and get splayed legs. Maybe put a couple of wooden shelves on one side of the cage and set the nest on that. When possible, it's good to secure the nests such that they won't flip over on a bird and trap them--which is a potential death sentence for them.

It looks like you have a mini aviary, so actually you might get away with two pairs in there IF the male that is already in there hasn't claimed it all as his territory. (What are the dimensions? How long has this pair been in there?) If you do get another pair, it might be wise to have another small cage that you can introduce the new doves inside (put the small cage next to your big cage for a while, then put the small cage inside the big cage for a while, until you think they'll get along. This could take several weeks or more if it works.) If it doesn't work, then at least you have another cage to keep the other pair in.

Doves do not work on a harem system well. It takes a pair to raise babies, and if you let a male breed with more than one female those hens who aren't his favorite will often wind up trying to raise babies by themselves. This would end up making you raise the babies yourself which is very time consuming and you basically have to take about 4 days off work for the feedings at younger ages. Some males are even aggressive towards strange females--I know my oldest cock bird is.

Posted: Jun 27, 2011 9:56am
I was thinking even further on this. If you build shelves for nesting, be sure to put a good sized lip on the edge of the shelf so that if a baby bird wiggles out of the nest before it can fly it doesn't get hurt.

Nesting material for the nest boxes/bowls can be hay or pine needles.

Also, it would be difficult for a single hen to incubate the eggs as well. A pair normally takes turns doing this--the male during the day and the female at night. A single bird, if they managed to successfully incubate, would be on the eggs almost all of the time and that would be pretty stressful for them. They will need to sit on the "eggs" for 14 days. If you just remove the eggs without giving a replacement, many hens will lay right away again--depleting their calcium.

If you did want to have a bunch of females and one male in the cage, I would recommend that you get a whole bunch of wooden fake dove eggs and replace all the eggs that they lay on the first day that they show up (Especially for the hens who are not his main mate, just in case the cock cheated on his mate and they're fertile.) Let them sit on the "eggs" for 14 days so that they don't lay right away after you take the eggs and deplete their calcium too much.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 27, 2011 12:56PM)
Dear Libis,
My cage is 2m x 2m x 1m. My doves have been living there since October. If I introduce inside the big cage another cage with another couple, will the first male know that there is another one in his cage? Will they "interact" also if they are in two different cages?

Posted: Jun 27, 2011 2:00pm
I also made a nest box as the one You showed me in March. The picture was taken before my doves started living there, so there wasn't the nest. Also with this, my couple hasn't layed any egg.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 27, 2011 02:24PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 13:56, mattia wrote:
Dear Libis,
My cage is 2m x 2m x 1m. My doves have been living there since october. If I introduce inside the big cage another cage with another couple, will the first male know that there is another one in his cage? Will they "interact" also if they are in two different cages?
[/quote]
Yeah, he'll know the other birds are in the other cage. It would be kind of a long shot adding another male to the same cage at this point. If you choose to add a couple of girls, just to be safe I would still put them in a smaller cage to introduce everyone slowly. They will then get used to their "neighbor" more gradually and without bloodshed in the initial meeting. No total guarantee they will get along and won't fight when you let the birds meet without bars in between, though. This is just the safest way I know to introduce new birds.

Don't forget to quarantine new birds before bringing them close to the big cage. At least 2 weeks so you know they won't bring in illness. Some people quarantine even longer--months even.
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 14:00, mattia wrote:
I also made a nest box as the one You showed me in March. The picture was taken before my doves started living there, so there wasn't the nest. Also with this, my couple hasn't layed any egg.
[/quote]
It's possible that your hen is infertile. It seems like that's a long time if she's cuddling with her mate and everything. I got one of my hens in December, she had never laid before (9 months old--I know that's a bit late) and she laid by March. (Her first set of eggs were so cute and mini. :) )
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 27, 2011 05:37PM)
Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.

Doves mate for life. In other words, if you put several females and one male in the cage, he would only mate with one of the females. As a strange turn of events, a mated female will fight with another female if she gets too close
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 27, 2011 10:59PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 18:37, Dave Scribner wrote:
Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.

Doves mate for life. In other words, if you put several females and one male in the cage, he would only mate with one of the females. As a strange turn of events, a mated female will fight with another female if she gets too close
[/quote]
You never needed a "howdy" cage for introductions? I've never been that lucky even in getting a male and female to pair up.

How would you get two males to get along while exercising loose in the house? My Edmund is ferocious about my entire room and the bathroom towards all of the other birds besides his mate. I try not to exercise the birds in other parts of the house because one of the cats is far too interested in them.

Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 28, 2011 01:48AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-27 18:37, Dave Scribner wrote:
Mattia, you cage is large enough to house two males without a problem. There is no need to put a smaller cage in the larger one. When I had 31 birds living in my basement, I had multiple males and they got along fine. They just need room to call their own.
[/quote]
So I can put them together without any risk, also if the first male has been living there for more time then the other and recognizes it as his territory? Is it better to pay attention to them at the beginning of their convivence?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 28, 2011 05:30AM)
Libis, no I have never used a "Howdy" cage. It was never necessary. Mattia's cage is large enough to introduce new birds, whether male or female without a problem. The males will only fight if they get close to each other. Territory is more important if the doves are housed in small cages. [quote]Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.[/quote]Doves are monogamous. Once paired up, it is a very rare situation where the male would take on two mates. They mate for life and they are not like humans. That is why there have been multiple questions on the Café about a bird getting very lethargic after the death of a mate.


Mattia, you male dove has already established it's territory. It won't be the entire cage. A new male will find an area that will belong to him. If their paths cross in the cage, they will flap at each other to maintain that territory..
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 28, 2011 07:19AM)
Ok,so I will do as follows:
I will build another cage,smaller than the one I've already built. Then I'll buy the new couple(a male and a female). I'll start as Dave said:putting both couples in the same cage. I'll leave them alone for a bit and the day after I'll check if there's something wrong with the two males. If not,I'll check for a week,and if they get along well,I'll wait 3-4 month and I'll buy the third couple. If they flap or fight,I'll put the new couple inside the smaller cage and I'll slowly let them get used to each other. If it doesn't work,I'll separate them definitely.
Could it be a good way to proceed?
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jun 28, 2011 07:29AM)
Don't leave them alone at first. Make sure to stay around and carefully look at the way they behave. I've had doves play nice but when I turned my back madness would take over.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 28, 2011 07:56AM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-28 06:30, Dave Scribner wrote:
Libis, no I have never used a "Howdy" cage. It was never necessary. Mattia's cage is large enough to introduce new birds, whether male or female without a problem. The males will only fight if they get close to each other. Territory is more important if the doves are housed in small cages. [quote]Doves are only as monogamous as humans. Cheating happens with some and not with others.[/quote]Doves are monogamous. Once paired up, it is a very rare situation where the male would take on two mates. They mate for life and they are not like humans. That is why there have been multiple questions on the Café about a bird getting very lethargic after the death of a mate.

Mattia, you male dove has already established it's territory. It won't be the entire cage. A new male will find an area that will belong to him. If their paths cross in the cage, they will flap at each other to maintain that territory.. [/quote]
As far as territorial issues--what would you do with a bird who has claimed an entire bedroom and bathroom? I would love to be able to let everyone out together. Is it possible that aggression is linked to a color gene? Since this super territorial cock is a blonde/fawn. I know in cocker spaniels there is a tendency for the blondes to be more aggressive than the black dogs--so this type of color gene and personality type link occurs elsewhere in animals that have been selectively bred for color.

I know that there are others out there who also have problems with this kind of territorial problem--but I haven't found information on a good solution for it. Here is another lady with the same problem that I found on the American Dove Assoc. member board: [quote]Introducing new birds to the "flock" Any tricks? The existing birds are being brutal and the new ones are scared out of their minds. If this keeps up, going to ask hubby to build a wing on the coop (LOL).[/quote] This is the reply from Dawn Wisniewski--a breeder I know and respect [quote]Yes Pattie...your flight is plenty big enough for the amount of birds you have. Doves are very territorial. Even if they have plenty of room...they will still bicker when in a colony over food, perches, mates, etc. [/quote]
I've been having a really hard time finding actual advice on getting them to get along when there is a territorial issue though--all I can normally find is descriptions of the problem. Were all of your birds just really laid back? Or is there some better way to do introductions besides a cage next to a cage and gradual intros?

I know they mourn their mates, but that doesn't mean that they never cheat on them. I know breeders who have had all kinds of little dramas happen in their lofts. It happens the most if you replace the eggs a lot with fakes to control population. I do admit that it is reported less in ringnecks than in their relatives, though.

It actually makes for pretty interesting reading across the whole family of doves and pigeons.

Monogomy in vinaceous doves, ringneck doves, and their hybrids:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081015100033.htm

More on that same study:
http://www.nwo.nl/nwohome.nsf/pages/NWOA_7KDEPT_Eng

This one has a bit of info on a study that was done in which monogamous species of birds were genetically tested to see whether the pairs cheated--not entirely dove specific:
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/06/25/animals/index.html/

Pigeons--this thread is an entertaining read. Oh, there's also one mourning dove if you read enough of the stories:
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f5/has-anyone-ever-caught-a-pigeon-cheating-on-his-mate-44217.html
[quote]
On 2011-06-28 08:19, mattia wrote:
Ok,so I will do as follows:
I will build another cage,smaller than the one I've already built. Then I'll buy the new couple(a male and a female). I'll start as Dave said:putting both couples in the same cage. I'll leave them alone for a bit and the day after I'll check if there's something wrong with the two males. If not,I'll check for a week,and if they get along well,I'll wait 3-4 month and I'll buy the third couple. If they flap or fight,I'll put the new couple inside the smaller cage and I'll slowly let them get used to each other. If it doesn't work,I'll separate them definitely.
Could it be a good way to proceed?
[/quote]
I think that sounds wise over all. :) As has been stated already, though, keep an eye on them early on.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jun 28, 2011 12:51PM)
My couple stays for a lot of time on the same perch. Sometimes they fly to others, but I think that this perch is their territory. Is it possible that another male will want the same territory or he will be smart and stay away?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jun 28, 2011 06:53PM)
Mattia, you're making this much more difficult that necessary. You cage is plenty large enough for at least 3 or 4 pairs of doves and possibly more. You don't need an extra smaller cage. Put you new pairs directly into that cage but as Fabio mentioned, just keep an eye on them for a few days. Minor fighting will not be harmful. Your cage has plenty of room for them to fly around.

Libis: [quote]Introducing new birds to the "flock" Any tricks? The existing birds are being brutal and the new ones are scared out of their minds. If this keeps up, going to ask hubby to build a wing on the coop (LOL).[/quote] I can't comment as I haven't seen the entire article but she doesn't say how many birds she already has in her "flock" or how big her cage is. That could make a big difference.

[quote]Yes Pattie...your flight is plenty big enough for the amount of birds you have. Doves are very territorial. Even if they have plenty of room...they will still bicker when in a colony over food, perches, mates, etc. [/quote]

This will occur no matter how many doves you have or how big your cage is. When two or more males gather at the food bin or around the same perch, there will be some fighting.

As to your one dove dominating an entire room, that is a training issue on your part. If this bird is the only one that is that aggressive, you might try keeping him in the cage while you release the other birds. Release him by himself. Gradually introduce other birds into the room with him but not all of your birds at the same time.
Message: Posted by: Libis (Jun 28, 2011 09:49PM)
[quote]
On 2011-06-28 19:53, Dave Scribner wrote:
As to your one dove dominating an entire room, that is a training issue on your part. If this bird is the only one that is that aggressive, you might try keeping him in the cage while you release the other birds. Release him by himself. Gradually introduce other birds into the room with him but not all of your birds at the same time.
[/quote]

Yeah, that is probably part of the issue--as he was my first dove. Before him I only knew how to work with hookbills and chickens. He lived with me as a single pet for a long time before I bought him a mate.

What's sad is, some of the birds that he is so aggressive towards are his own children--only 6 weeks old. He's been aggressive towards them since 3.5 weeks, and even though they don't beg any more he tries to attack.

He lost his home before mine due to aggression towards other birds as well. He would start fights and then end up losing them.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jul 1, 2011 05:38AM)
Can I produce the last dove in my act via s. tossing? Is saying: could it be dangerous for a dove to stay in that position for 4-5 minutes?
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jul 1, 2011 05:56AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-01 06:38, mattia wrote:
Can I produce the last dove in my act via s. tossing? Is saying: could it be dangerous for a dove to stay in that position for 4-5 minutes?
[/quote]
Would be uncomfortable. Both for you and the bird.Mainly for you, actually because, you know, you don't have nearly as much freedom of movement than you would if...unloaded - if you catch my drift. As for the birds, it would be safe, but uncomfortable, and there wuld be a serious risk (If not an absolute chance) of the bird moving around a bit and not being properly ready to fly out.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jul 1, 2011 07:08AM)
Thank You Fábio. I asked this because at the end of my act I produce an appearing cage from a silk and inside it there is a fake latex dove. Then I turn the fake dove into a real dove and the act ends. Have You got any ideas of how to make this change without using s. tossing?
Message: Posted by: Dave Scribner (Jul 1, 2011 08:12AM)
Mattia, if you were doing a body load, the very maximum time to hold it in the pocket would 15 minutes but that is pushing it. I would not recommend keeping a dove in your sleeve until the end of the act. There are ways to insure it stays there until needed but as Fabio said, it will be very uncomfortable for you and your movements throughout your act will be very restricted. With a little misdirection, you might be able to do the effect using an invisable harness and barehand production.
Message: Posted by: Mattia (Jul 1, 2011 08:49AM)
Ok. So I will do it in another way.Maybe with invisible harness. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jul 1, 2011 10:45AM)
Dave's suggestion should work like a charm. Think of Dan Serry's Mask to Dove: It absolutely blows people away - The effect is so strong and fast that the regular human being does not pay attention to some details that fellow magi sometimes overlook as being way too obvious.
Message: Posted by: tropicalillusions (Jul 1, 2011 07:24PM)
Also Greg Frewins dove toss s.....ess. Check out his site for this great prop which is much like the S...e T..s, but waits in an area until needed. So many ways, Dave and Fab have some great ideas.