(Close Window)
Topic: P & T line up for tonight's show.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 05:20AM)
The reigning world card trick champion, Shawn Farquhar, does the impossible right under Penn's nose. Plus, Cuba's greatest Magician (Big Claim) Manuel Martinez, who now lives in Margate (Kent) - takes to the stage, & one act performs the most stunning climax to a trick (Even a bigger claim!) ever seen on TV!
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Jul 30, 2011 05:47AM)
It's a joke. It's one of LOKi's comedy characters.

[quote]
On 2011-07-30 06:20, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Cuba's greatest Magician (Big Claim) Manuel Martinez, who now lives in Margate (Kent) - takes to the stage
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 07:24AM)
I wonder what secrets are going to be blown tonight?

Failing that, the magicians can always blurt out what it's not in magical secret terms for everyone to google.

Any mentalist tricks to make people look like fools?
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jul 30, 2011 07:51AM)
I find the inevitable thread nearly as entertaining as the show. Here we go again... Tonight's supposed to be a good one.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 08:03AM)
Sean,

If reading a thread on an internet forum is as entertaining as a prime time T.V. magic show, well I think then we are all siging off the same hymn sheet!

I happen to agree with Shrubsole.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 08:05AM)
Siging - should read singing.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jul 30, 2011 09:24AM)
Innercirclewannabe,

I do enjoy the show. I also quite enjoy the discussion afterwards :)
Message: Posted by: nimrod (Jul 30, 2011 09:28AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 08:24, Shrubsole wrote:
I wonder what secrets are going to be blown tonight?

Failing that, the magicians can always blurt out what it's not in magical secret terms for everyone to google.

Any mentalist tricks to make people look like fools?
[/quote]

Best magic shows in years, but I guess you can't please everyone.

Nimrod , Israel
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 10:50AM)
How does exposure please anyone in our game?

How does showing that mentalism is nothing but a magic trick to be busted, please anyone in our game?

No matter what anyone's view is on what damage that may or may not do, I can't for the life of me see how a programme that sets out to stop performers fooling them by exposing how it was done, as the "Best magic shows in years"?

"but I guess you can't please everyone." Oh you could quite easily. Now let me think, straight off the top of my head... Oh yes! How about a magic show that doesn't set out to expose anything and people just watch it?

That would please everyone except kiddies trying to demand the secrets. And really that shouldn't be anyone on here should it?
Message: Posted by: Doc_Z (Jul 30, 2011 10:53AM)
I really enjoy shawn farquhar... one more reason I wish we got this show in the US
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 30, 2011 11:10AM)
Shrubsole, I agree with you almost 100%. I like you, and I agree that exposure is complete bull. It doesn't help us, and it should go and die in a hole.

However I don't think you can deny, that in terms of magic on television, this is really good tv. The acts are skilled and professional, and the judges are actually people with talent! Its easily the best show we've had in years - with the except of Derren's work ofcourse.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 12:41PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 11:50, Shrubsole wrote:
How does exposure please anyone in our game?

How does showing that mentalism is nothing but a magic trick to be busted, please anyone in our game?
[/quote]

You are making the mistake of dealing in absolutes. I think we can all be agreed that any level of exposure is in principle, taken in isolation - bad. On this there is no disagreement.

The real question is whether Fool Us represents a net benefit for the art as a whole.

It's easy to get distracted by the exposure question, even easier if it is one of your regularly performed effects, or an effect you have recently purchased that gets the exposure treatment - but even in that case it doesn't necessarily mean that the show is bad for the art as a whole.

Personally I think the show is on balance good for magic and mentalism. A straight magic show simply isn't going to get a slot on prime time UK TV. You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past. I think if people made an effort to quantify the benefits from the show and the detriments re exposure - you'd quickly see that it is making a decent contribution to the state of the art in the UK.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 12:48PM)
I can see what you are trying to say, young Thomas, whilst it could have been good TV, it has let itself down by being a cheap points scoring, lowest denominator, show dressed up as good TV.

The whole overall view that it sets itself up as a challenge to fool them rather than provide good entertainment, backs this up. Its whole outlook is an aggressive one of 'Come on, fool us!' as that's what they have decided magic is all about and they are clearly showing that, that is how you behave towards a magician - You watch, for no other reason that to try and catch them out and when you see something, this TV show promotes the new socially acceptable; 'expose the magician and tell them in no uncertain terms that he didn't fool you.

If this is a good TV show with wonderful magicians (and not those just there to promote themselves at any cost to anyone else) then why not just show that then?

I really can't see this show as doing wonders for magic in general and if it does then it's the wrong sort of promotion altogether. A whole new generation of people now think that magic is all about fooling people and it their socially acceptable responsibility to get them and expose them before they make a fool of you.

And the same goes for those magicians who pretend they are mentalists, when they are just doing a trick! (rhetorical)
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 12:48PM)
You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past.

No one told Simon Cowell!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:01PM)
"The real question is whether Fool Us represents a net benefit for the art as a whole."

Well let's see:

Exposure.
Labelling Magicians as people out to make fools of people.
That mentalists are nothing but magicians trying to con people.
Desperate performers willing to sell anyone up the river, in their selfish promotion.
And above all: the correct way to behave when watching a magician is no to sit back and enjoy it but to work it out at all costs and get them before they get you!

That's what I get from this show and having read the lay forums as I do to get an 'outside the café' real world view, that's what lay people have got from the show as well or they are the type this show attracts.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 01:02PM)
Shrubsole - Seems like are trying to have it both ways here. You are unhappy about the exposure - and yet being 'fooled' isn't a factor worthy of consideration in terms of judging?

Fact of the matter is that people like to be fooled, they like to have things exposed to them. They might not like the feeling after its been exposed to them - but it does the trick of keeping them watching and watching the adverts.

As for Cowell... none of his shows are cabaret variety acts. They all have their angle as does pretty much every prime time reality show. Seems natural to me that this angle would be related to secrets/exposure/fooling. Having said that, perhaps you are on to something. Maybe you could pitch your no-frills magical entertainment show to Sky 1. Maybe jazz it up and make it something truly different by having a phone in vote ;)
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 01:04PM)
I agree. If the main aim is to "Figure out" how its done, well then, I think the Art is belittled and in some ways redundant!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 13:48, innercirclewannabe wrote:
You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past.

No one told Simon Cowell!
[/quote]

Do you perform to entertain people or to make fools out of them?
Do you work WITH your audience or in spite of them and at them?
Does your show get spoilt by people grabbing things and doing what this show promotes 'getting you at any cost'?
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 01:08PM)
BTW - my last post was in agreement with Shrubsole.

Davit,

Cowell's success was based on his knowledge of "Bygone" TV and how the variety show format would still work, allbeit with a direct marketing ploy to make him rich, i.e. The Phone Vote.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 01:09PM)
Shrub - you made a list of the detriments only.

And for the record - it is performers alone that bear responsibility for making 'fools' of people (as distinct from fooling them). Semantics perhaps, but there is a different there. You can amaze an audience and leave them without a clue as to the secret without making them feel or appear "foolish". When I've watched Fool Us, I've never perceived that making people feel foolish is part of it. Some performers are guilty of this however... but that has always been the case. Same about your 'conning comment'.

Sure, performers will sell each other up the river. Who'd have thought it?

As for trying to figure out the secret rather than 'sitting back and enjoying it' - that's been the case for decades as well. I remember watching Paul Daniels when I was a kid and wondering how he did it? Asking how he did it. Trying to see the secret. Trying to reproduce. Same for my siblings, same for my friends and the same thing today. This of course is totally natural - anyone with a brain knows its not real magic - so being alert (if not always actively seeking) to the secret is only to be expected.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 01:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:08, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Cowell's success was based on his knowledge of "Bygone" TV and how the variety show format would still work, allbeit with a direct marketing ploy to make him rich, i.e. The Phone Vote.
[/quote]

And you don't think that Fool Us is making the variety show format work as well? Seems you want to take away the thing that makes it work!!!
Message: Posted by: Louis Lu (Jul 30, 2011 01:14PM)
Which is why we all need to remember: as magicians, our foremost goal is to entertain our audience. Our presentations should make our audience feel a sense of wonder and astonishment, not foolish or conned. The fact that we know a secret should never imply that we are in any way more intelligent or clever than our audience.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:14PM)
"Fact of the matter is that people like to be fooled, they like to have things exposed to them."

Well they are in for a major disappointment at my show then as I don't go out to fool them/make fools of them and I won't be telling them how it's done either!

I provide entertainment for people who want to be entertained. Not perform for aggressive people out to get their selves noticed.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:17PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:14, Louis Lu wrote:
Which is why we all need to remember: as magicians, our foremost goal is to entertain our audience. Our presentations should make our audience feel a sense of wonder and astonishment, not foolish or conned. The fact that we know a secret should never imply that we are in any way more intelligent or clever than our audience.
[/quote]

Exactly! However that is not what this show promotes. That is the whole point.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 01:20PM)
No Davit, the point that I am making is in direct response to your post which said - "You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past".

Relic or not - it still works today.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:25PM)
Wow this has actually turned into an interesting debate rather than the slagathon that it normally turns into.

Well done all!

(and I'm not doing too badly with two very bad eyes. (Eye op last Tuesday!) Vision is over-rated! :lol:
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 01:27PM)
Yes I could never "See" what all the fuss about Vision was!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 01:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:27, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Yes I could never "See" what all the fuss about Vision was!
[/quote]

If I told you I was reading this through the lid of a pepper pot*, you wouldn't believe me!

* Complicated but the drops I'm on open up the iris to maximum and eyes can't see fine detail like that - So the holes in the pepper pot lid acts as a closed down iris for a week until I get off these drops. (I wish I was making this up! :lol: )
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 01:49PM)
Wow!
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 01:53PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:20, innercirclewannabe wrote:
No Davit, the point that I am making is in direct response to your post which said - "You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past".

Relic or not - it still works today.
[/quote]

My point is that such a show is no longer enough on its own. There has to be an angle.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 02:01PM)
Well, I will agree to disagree with you on this. If you think that Britains got Talent is anything more than a rehash of a 70's style variety show, well that's where we can't agree.

If the angle you keep referring to is "Phone Vote", well then, I have already made this point.

Anyway, P & T is on in one hour's time.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 02:25PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:53, Davit Sicseek wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 14:20, innercirclewannabe wrote:
No Davit, the point that I am making is in direct response to your post which said - "You might like a show where people just 'entertain us' or some cabaret type variety act where artists and wheeled on in order to do a turn - but that type of show is a relic of decades past".

Relic or not - it still works today.
[/quote]

My point is that such a show is no longer enough on its own. There has to be an angle.
[/quote]

Then have the cheap and tacky angle where it's a competition with a public phone vote if that is all the mindless TV producers can churn out nowadays, but why does the angle have to be a negative one like this show has.

It seems to be an excuse to justify anything. And in this case the need for an angle does not justify all the negatives I listed above.

And those negatives are not doing any of us any favours. Promoting magicians as something to expose and mentalists to debase. Time spent on a lay forum will shock some here as to how they rate magicians as the lowest of the low and how ruining them is almost a public service for which they deserve praise.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 03:08PM)
That was as good as Card Magic gets in my opinion. I am not a card fan, but that was super!
Message: Posted by: jayder (Jul 30, 2011 03:14PM)
Not just a great trick but an excellent performance.Very entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 03:21PM)
Wow just back from the lay people's forum that I watch during the show to find out what the real world is doing and they have actually gone to all the trouble of downloading an illegal copy of Colin's DVD and posted the entire workings of his bookless book test.

That is what is happening out in the real world as a direct result of this show. They will stop at nothing to ruin the magician and this show promotes that.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 03:27PM)
Ah! another Russian roulette / mentalism trick bites the dust.

Time to drop all such routines like a brick!
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 03:29PM)
I am not surprised to read Shrubsole's last post. I wrote it last week & I will write it again, I will not be sad to see this show end.

I wonder if they called the show "Penn and Teller Entertain us" would that have stopped what Shrubsole just reported.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 03:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:29, innercirclewannabe wrote:
I am not surprised to read Shrubsole's last post. I wrote it last week & I will write it again, I will not be sad to see this show end.

I wonder if they called the show "Penn and Teller Entertain us" would that have stopped what Shrubsole just reported.
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, but it at least it would not make it acceptable or in fact the whole point in watching a magician being to expose them. This show promotes and makes acceptable the nasty aliments of magic.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 03:44PM)
Now that was a routine of many parts!
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 03:47PM)
P & T routine should be right up your street Shrubsole. Ross said that it will have you running to your optican!
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 03:58PM)
Thankfully, I think that was the last in the series?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:47, innercirclewannabe wrote:
P & T routine should be right up your street Shrubsole. Ross said that it will have you running to your optican!
[/quote]

I didn't see the point in it!

* Gets coat.....
Message: Posted by: blackESP (Jul 30, 2011 04:01PM)
I want to see Eshla turn into a big black man at the end of his AOCAAN.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 30, 2011 04:02PM)
Well there goes another Russian Roulette routine.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 04:02PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:58, innercirclewannabe wrote:
Thankfully, I think that was the last in the series?
[/quote]

Rumour has it that there will be a two part Christmas special.

And it will be back as the chavs love it!

(Chavs = Trailer park trash, for our American readers.)
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 30, 2011 04:04PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:01, blackESP wrote:
I want to see Eshla turn into a big black man at the end of his AOCAAN.
[/quote]

Am I allowed lube?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 04:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:04, Thomas Cooper wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:01, blackESP wrote:
I want to see Eshla turn into a big black man at the end of his AOCAAN.
[/quote]

Am I allowed lube?
[/quote]

I think that's a different kind of show on after midnight and pay per view. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 30, 2011 04:19PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:21, Shrubsole wrote:
Wow just back from the lay people's forum that I watch during the show to find out what the real world is doing and they have actually gone to all the trouble of downloading an illegal copy of Colin's DVD and posted the entire workings of his bookless book test.

That is what is happening out in the real world as a direct result of this show. They will stop at nothing to ruin the magician and this show promotes that.
[/quote]

Any link to this lay people forum?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 04:24PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:19, Lior wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:21, Shrubsole wrote:
Wow just back from the lay people's forum that I watch during the show to find out what the real world is doing and they have actually gone to all the trouble of downloading an illegal copy of Colin's DVD and posted the entire workings of his bookless book test.

That is what is happening out in the real world as a direct result of this show. They will stop at nothing to ruin the magician and this show promotes that.
[/quote]

Any link to this lay people forum?
[/quote]

I will PM it to you as I don't want to spread more exposure.

Warning you may not like what you read there. In fact I guarantee it!
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jul 30, 2011 04:25PM)
Deleted
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jul 30, 2011 04:29PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:24, Shrubsole wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:19, Lior wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:21, Shrubsole wrote:
Wow just back from the lay people's forum that I watch during the show to find out what the real world is doing and they have actually gone to all the trouble of downloading an illegal copy of Colin's DVD and posted the entire workings of his bookless book test.

That is what is happening out in the real world as a direct result of this show. They will stop at nothing to ruin the magician and this show promotes that.
[/quote]

Any link to this lay people forum?
[/quote]

I will PM it to you as I don't want to spread more exposure.

Warning you may not like what you read there. In fact I guarantee it!
[/quote]


Can I have the link as well, please? It got me curious.

BTW, here's Shawn's perforance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNO8Cm0hHug
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 30, 2011 04:29PM)
Waiting
Message: Posted by: blackESP (Jul 30, 2011 04:31PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:24, Shrubsole wrote:

Warning you may not like what you read there. In fact I guarantee it!
[/quote]

You sound like Doctor Zaius at the end of Planet Of The Apes. Lior will see the posts and start pounding his desk ... "*** you all to hell!"
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 30, 2011 04:33PM)
Thanks
Got the link
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 04:37PM)
Warning to anyone popping over there - Just read and do not join up and think that you will change their minds about exposure - I've been there and done that in the past and it doesn't end well - They are vicious!

And of course DO NOT MENTION THE CAFÉ! We don't want that lot here!
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Jul 30, 2011 04:38PM)
I went to the library,after I saw a simple coin trick when I was 12,and got a book......For free!
Here I am 36 years later.
Libraries,internet,they're both the same.Just that one takes a little more time....But they're both available to everyone..Free of charge.
The kind of people who search for the answer,are either interested in the subject and wish to persue it,or the type that wish to
crack a mystery.There's only one of these that would go to see a magic performance,guesse which.
Your fears have no grounds whatsoever.
Ray.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 30, 2011 04:39PM)
He is right. Those people over at the lay forums are vicious.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 04:46PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:38, Ray Tupper. wrote:
I went to the library,after I saw a simple coin trick when I was 12,and got a book......For free!
Here I am 36 years later.
Libraries,internet,they're both the same.Just that one takes a little more time....But they're both available to everyone..Free of charge.
The kind of people who search for the answer,are either interested in the subject and wish to persue it,or the type that wish to
crack a mystery.There's only one of these that would go to see a magic performance,guesse which.
Your fears have no grounds whatsoever.
Ray.
[/quote]

No the point of them doing it over on the website I'm talking about is to reveal it to everyone and look the big man.

Remember the site in question is nothing to do with magic at all and is just lay people talking about the show and trying to expose even more to impress the others.

No magicians in training there!
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 04:59PM)
Well I don't know if you guys are talking about the D*gital Spy forum... but I just went to have a look since its the biggest 'tv' forum I know. Seems like there is a lot of curiosity and I'm sure there are at least a couple of magicians in training. It after all through curiosity that new blood enters the art.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 05:11PM)
Well when I started in magic I didn't get a DVD and post the entire exposure of it to people who just wanted to know on a site nothing to do with magic.

Idon't know anyone else who started that way and if someone has an interest in magic they understand the very basics of not telling anyone the secret.

Talk about trying to put a positive spin on everything including exposure for no other reason than to look big and ruin it for everyone else.
Message: Posted by: Simon (Ted) Edwards (Jul 30, 2011 05:17PM)
Vocal minority, blah blah blah (yawn)...
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 05:18PM)
There is a big difference in Curiosity Davit & down right contempt for our Art! Curiosity in itself can be harmless enough, but when you have an added dimension of "People in the know" for whatever reason enjoying exposing the secret, well then, "Our Art" is in trouble in the on-line age!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 05:31PM)
I have helped many a young magician and pointed them in the right direction. I did noy however just post a full exposure of everything they wanted to know.

If they are wanting to become a magician they will go in the direction I point, if they are just after secrets they don't bother doing anything.

These are people wanting to look cool and sound the big man.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 30, 2011 05:38PM)
You should see that site after a Derren Brown special! There is one on there who hates Derren with such venom, I think he should be on a list of people not allowed within a mile of Derren.

And when they can't work out something Derren does, boy do they get very ugly.
Message: Posted by: kannon (Jul 30, 2011 05:42PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 16:21, Shrubsole wrote:
Wow just back from the lay people's forum that I watch during the show to find out what the real world is doing and they have actually gone to all the trouble of downloading an illegal copy of Colin's DVD and posted the entire workings of his bookless book test.

That is what is happening out in the real world as a direct result of this show. They will stop at nothing to ruin the magician and this show promotes that.
[/quote]

Jesus!

On page 66 someone has found a link to the Luke Jermay PDF re I.S***ing and posted that in the thread!
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 05:43PM)
I bit of perspective is required. This show has had millions of people watching magic every weekend. How many 1000s of people have had their interest in magic perked? How many are going to get magic sets, buy a trick, do some reading, go and see a local show etc. In the grand scheme of things the negative consequences are negligible. It really doesn't matter that a bunch of over curious TV addicts (that probably never leave their house anyway) are chatting about a method that appeared on the show.

"Our Art" isn't in any sort of trouble at all as a result of this show.

The online age isn't alone in having to contend with the forces of exposure. It's always been that way - at least in any age I've lived through. Before I was even in to magic I remember tricks being exposed at school and college. In fact the thing that got me in to magic initially was probably after some idiot amazed me with an 'in the hand' performance with a coin unique, before going on to expose it to everyone in the room. Nothing new in the talk on digita* spy - there's always people willing to be the big man. But I'm not here defending them. I'm defending my view that Fool Us has been a positive.

You have to ask yourself whether this show has represented a net benefit or detriment to the art? In the grand scheme of things the exposure has been miniscule. The benefits of having millions of people seeing good quality magic and mentalism every Saturday night on the other hand are undoubtedly beneficial.
Message: Posted by: kannon (Jul 30, 2011 05:50PM)
I quite liked todays show though
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jul 30, 2011 05:53PM)
Shawn Farquhar looked like he was definitely throwing some red herrings out to make it look like a deck switch.

If you look at his prior performance - same effect but simplified - there seems to be FAR less reaching in pockets... in the Canadian "Urban Rush" TV performance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFrj8DDM8WE&feature=related

He makes a big deal of mentioning the Jokers and the throw-away cards too - Hmmmm...

It is consistent now that the cardicians that are fooling P&T are throwing an arsenal of herrings at the boys - successfully in many cases :)
Message: Posted by: kannon (Jul 30, 2011 05:55PM)
Re: Davit

Overally I'd agree and say its positive but with negative undertones also taking into account the forum represents a very small number of people who actually go and online and research and talk about the TV show.
The thing is does also show occassionally what I'd call 'bad magic'.
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jul 30, 2011 06:20PM)
Let's focus on the good side. The show's great.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 30, 2011 06:32PM)
I will refer you back to my earlier post Davit when I wrote, why not call it "Penn & Teller Entertain us". Same show without the exposing. Are you of the opinion that this format would not make the viewer who is not already involved - go out and buy a magic set, and let their journey begin from there.
I think this is real perspective.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jul 30, 2011 07:05PM)
Such sourness guys - sheesh.

The show is great - good for magic - imperfect. Let it go.
Message: Posted by: PsiDroid (Jul 30, 2011 07:10PM)
Can someone post links to other parts of the seventh episode ??

thanks in advance:
Message: Posted by: Fábio DeRose (Jul 30, 2011 07:22PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 20:10, PsiDroid wrote:
Can someone post links to other parts of the seventh episode ??

thanks in advance:
[/quote]

As of yet there are none - just Shawn's and a repost of the same video.

Use Google Video Search. Adjust it for "last 24 hours" or "last week" - Always works.
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jul 30, 2011 07:25PM)
Less exposure then the masked mentalist at least.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Jul 30, 2011 07:28PM)
Not a link to the latest episode but see Penn and Teller both(!) speaking about Fool Us at Comic Con 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPgND-B_Afc#t=2m15s
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Jul 30, 2011 08:03PM)
[quote]I will refer you back to my earlier post Davit when I wrote, why not call it "Penn & Teller Entertain us". Same show without the exposing. Are you of the opinion that this format would not make the viewer who is not already involved - go out and buy a magic set, and let their journey begin from there.
I think this is real perspective.[/quote]

I didn't think I was making myself this difficult to understand. You are comparing what we have to what you would like. What you would like "Pen & Teller Entertain Us" would never get commissioned because we live in 2011. Magic is clearly not the easiest thing to get commissioned - hence why the number of prime time magic shows in the UK in the last decade can be counted on one hand. The show we have is the show we have. That was the one that got pitched and that was the one that was made.

I'm saying the show IS a net benefit to the art. You say it isn't. I think that's daft.

You might not think its ideal. You might be right in saying that a slightly more 1980's straight laced magic show has the potential to work commercially in the UK market. Might. But that's not what we have - so pontificating about it isn't much use.
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 30, 2011 10:51PM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 18:38, Shrubsole wrote:
You should see that site after a Derren Brown special! There is one on there who hates Derren with such venom, I think he should be on a list of people not allowed within a mile of Derren.

And when they can't work out something Derren does, boy do they get very ugly.
[/quote]

I saw Derren show 2weeks ago and spent some time with him backstage.
It was sold out, many fans waited for aoutograpahs and he spent 20 min with them
Then we went to drink and everyone liked him.
So this forum didn't effect him, his show or his life.

Lior
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 31, 2011 03:18AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 20:28, quicknotist wrote:
Not a link to the latest episode but see Penn and Teller both(!) speaking about Fool Us at Comic Con 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPgND-B_Afc#t=2m15s
[/quote]

I think this demonstrates the great respect that P&T had for the performers on the show
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 31, 2011 03:54AM)
Deleted
Message: Posted by: nimrod (Jul 31, 2011 04:08AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 23:51, Lior wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 18:38, Shrubsole wrote:
You should see that site after a Derren Brown special! There is one on there who hates Derren with such venom, I think he should be on a list of people not allowed within a mile of Derren.

And when they can't work out something Derren does, boy do they get very ugly.
[/quote]

I saw Derren show 2weeks ago and spent some time with him backstage.
It was sold out, many fans waited for aoutograpahs and he spent 20 min with them
Then we went to drink and everyone liked him.
So this forum didn't effect him, his show or his life.

Lior
[/quote]


Lior you lucky ***.
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 31, 2011 04:12AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 17:37, Shrubsole wrote:
Warning to anyone popping over there - Just read and do not join up and think that you will change their minds about exposure - I've been there and done that in the past and it doesn't end well - They are vicious!

And of course DO NOT MENTION THE CAFÉ! We don't want that lot here!
[/quote]

Yes very clever now that your name is mentioned all the lay person has to do is google it and it links
Back to magic Café , talkmagic and all the other forum you vacate
Idiot
Message: Posted by: twm (Jul 31, 2011 04:38AM)
It seems to me that we can either sit and wring out hands and complain that the world is unfair to magicians, or we can accept that this is the world we live in.

Suppose someone made a series exposing Penn and Teller's magic. Morally, it would almost be defensible, except of course that other people use the same techniques. But ignore that for a moment. Just imagine a series - 'Penn and Teller Exposed'. Would it harm Penn and Teller? My guess is that it would do them far more good than harm.
Message: Posted by: Lior (Jul 31, 2011 04:52AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-31 04:18, Martin.Lester wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 20:28, quicknotist wrote:
Not a link to the latest episode but see Penn and Teller both(!) speaking about Fool Us at Comic Con 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPgND-B_Afc#t=2m15s
[/quote]

I think this demonstrates the great respect that P&T had for the performers on the show
[/quote]

I agree
great interview.

I think that one member here is the one that expouse all the magic in the lay people forum.
There are 50-60 kids there at the most. someof them will become amature magicians, some of them will become
something and some will move to the next forum.
don't worry about all this forums. nothing will happen

Lior
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 31, 2011 05:01AM)
I think only an idiot would say that the forums do not change anything. Exposure does change and hurt magic - but in the same way radiation hurts your lungs: the effects take years to see, and happen on the large scale, not on the small.

There was a massive decline in the popularity of magic, and there have also been times of massive hype about magic. What do you think causes these changes? They do not happen by themselves. The truth is that if P&T expose a gimmick or prop then the next day magic as a whole will feel no different, but its the difference in the publics eyes that changes over time. There was a time when exposure was non-existent (almost) and then we had more flexibility in our methods and presentations.

Forums will not stop you getting booked this week or the next week, but ten or fifteen years down the line, when this generation has grown up and is used to googling everything and having the answers in seconds, then it will make a difference. Imagine in two decades from now, when that mindset of todays annoying teenagers ("I can just google it") is actually part of your employers. They will be the ones hiring you - and that's not a good thing.

In the long term forums will cause a lot of harm to magic, aswell as a lot of good ofcourse. You won't notice it now, but once the general publics attitude to mystery, psychics and mind reading has changed... then you will notice. I've started to notice it a bit already, just because of Penn. Its only minor right now, but the day will come when the influence of these forums has much wider consequences than what it has now.


Tom
xx
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 31, 2011 05:06AM)
Well...the easiest way is to use your own presentations and everything is fine...

more fun too...

13 steps and PME are no doubt available for free if you dig around the internet enough - the secrets are already out there, google-able...

I'm over it...

I don't like it - but I'm over it...

maybe we shouldnt keep causing such public distress after every show though...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 31, 2011 05:35AM)
[quote]Thomas Cooper wrote:

...There was a time when exposure was non-existent (almost) and then we had more flexibility in our methods and presentations. [/quote]

What time was that, Tom? Sometime prior to [i]The Discoverie of Witchcraft[/i] perhaps?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 31, 2011 05:37AM)
The one thing in the mentalist's favour is that the type on that site are terminally lazy. They are not interested in performing or becoming performers, they just want the quick fix answer of "How did he know she would pick that one?".

Fortunately, unless you have an interest in learning mentalism, things like '13 steps' are mind-numbingly boring. So even if you were to post "It tells you exactly how he did that in '13 steps'", that isn't the answer they are looking for and very few would bother going looking for it even if it were free. And of those those who did, they would fall asleep at page one!

As far as mentalism goes on this show: Now I'm am not the type of mentalist who goes out as a real mystic and all the pretentiousness that entails, but this show really cheapens mentalism to nothing but a magic trick and to treat them the same; bully them until you get the secret you want.
Message: Posted by: LLL (Jul 31, 2011 05:42AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-31 06:01, Thomas Cooper wrote:

There was a time when exposure was non-existent (almost) and then we had more flexibility in our methods and presentations.

Tom
xx
[/quote]

when was this time Thomas? Your speaking like you remember them well?
Exposure has always been around in some sort of form. houdini, canasta, brown.. all been exposed..

which brings me to brown.. here's an interesting quote he gave to bad psychics on the subject of exposure by the masked magician;

"Well, they were horrid to watch, although I'd already started to drift away from that sort of magic. Ultimately, though, they did help magic on TV. In a perverse way, they kept interest in the subject from waning: they were a decadent symptom of the television magic we were all rather tired with at the time. People did watch the shows, which meant that TV execs knew there was still some life in the subject. It took Blaine to then make the change."

interested to hear peoples thoughts on that?

Andy
Message: Posted by: LLL (Jul 31, 2011 05:43AM)
Sorry bob you must have posted when I was typing.

andy
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 31, 2011 05:44AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-31 06:35, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]Thomas Cooper wrote:

...There was a time when exposure was non-existent (almost) and then we had more flexibility in our methods and presentations. [/quote]

What time was that, Tom? Sometime prior to [i]The Discoverie of Witchcraft[/i] perhaps?
[/quote]

Oh long before that I think.

Many early religions revolved around the high priests having the secret knowledge and keeping the 'audience' ignorant of such secrets.

Nothing changes much!
Message: Posted by: Thomas Cooper (Jul 31, 2011 06:02AM)
Nah. There was a time when the ONLY way you could discover the secrets was to read rather hard to find books. Go back a hundred years or more and you have that situation.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 31, 2011 06:13AM)
I don't have a problem understanding any post you have made Davit. The problem is when you read them back, you are continually changing your opinion! Anyway, I have no interest in being personal about this, that is not my style. However, I feel your comment that the show is the way it is does not address the broader issue which is indicative of TV programmes today - unless there is a voyeuristic slant to the show, it simply won't work. This is lazy and predictable thinking on behalf of the programme makers.



The series is over now and doesn't return until the Big Christmas Special. On reflection, it has at least allowed us to debate & offer opinions, that in itself is always welcome.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 31, 2011 06:15AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-31 07:02, Thomas Cooper wrote:
Nah. There was a time when the ONLY way you could discover the secrets was to read rather hard to find books. Go back a hundred years or more and you have that situation.
[/quote]

And on that point it's not too strange that it was only the religious leaders who could read!
Message: Posted by: LLL (Jul 31, 2011 06:15AM)
Thomas, When exactly do you think houdini was around? at that time newspapers were the peoples medium, and fraudulant psychics were having thier methods exposed a lot.
Message: Posted by: LLL (Jul 31, 2011 06:22AM)
1873 Professor Hoffman begins to supply magic tricks to "Every Boy's Annual" or " Boy's Own Paper ", a popular magazine for boys in London, England. Hoffman claims that he placed them there because magicians were so unprogressive and would not alter their acts. He continues to supply tricks to the magazine until 1877.

taken from

http://www.geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Timeline_of_magic_exposures
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 31, 2011 07:06AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-30 21:03, Davit Sicseek wrote:
[quote]I will refer you back to my earlier post Davit when I wrote, why not call it "Penn & Teller Entertain us". Same show without the exposing. Are you of the opinion that this format would not make the viewer who is not already involved - go out and buy a magic set, and let their journey begin from there.
I think this is real perspective.[/quote]

I didn't think I was making myself this difficult to understand. You are comparing what we have to what you would like. What you would like "Pen & Teller Entertain Us" would never get commissioned because we live in 2011. Magic is clearly not the easiest thing to get commissioned - hence why the number of prime time magic shows in the UK in the last decade can be counted on one hand. The show we have is the show we have. That was the one that got pitched and that was the one that was made.

I'm saying the show IS a net benefit to the art. You say it isn't. I think that's daft.

You might not think its ideal. You might be right in saying that a slightly more 1980's straight laced magic show has the potential to work commercially in the UK market. Might. But that's not what we have - so pontificating about it isn't much use.
[/quote]

The Question on why the show was not called " Entertain Us" has been answered by the Fool Us Production Team

" We have had many people who have questioned the Fool Us/Entertain Us concept. The fact of the matter is, if you had a show called Entertain Us we would have ended up with around 40 magicians going to Vegas as P&T we genuinely entertained by everyone they saw. You could put in grounds and rules on what classifies as being entertaining, but like I explained before - if you were pitching a show idea to a channel with layers upon layers of rules they would never go for it. An viewer wants a simple format that they can sit down watch, and not have to think of all the rules that apply."

The Other Points have also been answered

"We are never going to find one way to judge these reveals that is going to please everyone. Whilst many magicians would prefer more use of the jargon to protect methods you have to think also of the lay people at home who have no idea of magic. If they tuned in every week only for the reveals to contain a bunch of code words they don't understand they would never come back. Obviously P&T tried their best to keep a healthy balance, but either way you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time"
Message: Posted by: McCoy (Jul 31, 2011 11:11AM)
Seems like exposure is the new magic...

Even B&S's Edinburgh festival show starting in a few days time features a reveal show at midnight!

http://www.comedy.co.uk/fringe/2011/features/barry_and_stuart_interview/

Ahem... I'll be going. ;)
Message: Posted by: PWRIS (Jul 31, 2011 12:04PM)
GREAT P&T, hit Scotland ...
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Jul 31, 2011 07:44PM)
'Reality' TV has turned all presentational performers into ducks in a shooting gallery.
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Aug 1, 2011 05:42AM)
[quote]
On 2011-07-31 07:13, innercirclewannabe wrote:
The series is over now and doesn't return until the Big Christmas Special. On reflection, it has at least allowed us to debate & offer opinions, that in itself is always welcome.
[/quote]

This is Not Correct as previously advised they Shot 35 Acts

We have seen 27 of them which leaves 7 + (1 That Messed Up)

so on top of the Christmas Special which will show the winner's In Vegas,

There is also going to be an August Bank Holiday Special Edition of Fool Us!

(I know old Shrubsole won’t be pleased but I can assure you this is from a reliable source and not some made up from some “Friends”)