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Topic: Act stealing....opinions
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 7, 2011 01:00PM)
Lets start a new topic here and drop an ongoing fight before it gets even more out of hand. I have heard many performers over the years complaining how others stole their act. Im curious as we all hve our views and opinions but what does everyone think about this. What is ok to do ?What is considered stealing? Where is the line of what to consider when claiming to be the creator of a "new act". What boundries do you have to change/alter to claim its not the same thing? Does pitch or presentation affect the rules.If so then how? I don't want to fight over just not agreeing. I would like to see others views on the topic and why they came up with their opinions.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 8, 2011 09:23AM)
I have many thoughts about this and will be posting them here soon.
Message: Posted by: petekoloz (Sep 8, 2011 10:11AM)
I will wait until Todd Robbins expresses his opinions and then re-phrase them as my own.
Message: Posted by: critter (Sep 8, 2011 10:18AM)
I will wait until Pete re-phrases Todd and then re-phrase Pete.
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 8, 2011 10:30AM)
If we invent a piece of equipment, we can patent it. If we copyright a script or video, that work is protected. Unfortunately, we are not protected if we come up with a stunt.

We have a corner of the entertainment business that's ignored by the big-money companies (recording and broadcast), so points that are relevant are not very clearly defined.

We also have a corner of the entertainment business where "borrowing" is not only acceptable, but often encouraged. "It's OK. Everybody does it."

Many performers learn their acts from a mentor, and continue to present them in that way, using the same lines, etc. How many people do we know, doing a version of Melvin's blockhead act? Lots, but Todd is the only one I ever heard of, who paid Melvin royalties.

How many sword swallowers say "Down the hatch without a scratch"? Lots. I wonder how old that line really is.

The issue that will be increasingly defined, is whether something can be shown to be "derivative", and how far removed from the original it is.

I know a lot of "sideshow" performers who have no original work. Legally, it presents issues that have not yet been addressed. I know of a couple of very interesting things in progress, that will help with this definition. I've been asked to participate in two different legal cases that will address some of those issues. At some future point, I may have further comment...just not now.

Ethically, it doesn't change the fact that many performers steal the work of others, including folks whom they call friends. Sideshow, juggling, magic...all involve rampant theft. Out of all the people I know, only a handful in each genre do original work.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 8, 2011 10:39AM)
Sideshow performance can, for the most part, be separated into three catergories. Traditional skills and acts whose origins go back decades, if not centuries. The presentation of these are either based upon material used by previous generations of performers (and can for the most part be considered in the public domain) or original material created by the performer themselves or in collaboration with others. The second classification is variations of these traditional acts and skills. A good example of this is all of the various items people have inserted into their nasal passages that take this skill beyond what is traditional known as blockhead. And the third catergory that are new innovations in this field of entertainment. Harley Newman has created a number of these.

Problems arise when text from the first catergory and ideas from the second and third are used by others than the originator and premission for the usage was not obtained from the originator.

The secord catergory seems like the area where the greatest contention can be found. One question that often arises is who actually innovated the variation?

The originator of an act or presentation has the sole right to do their creation. It is wrong for anyone else to use this material or innovation without permission of the originator. This includes the manufacturing of a prop for a third party. Both the craftsman and the person that commissioned the prop are in the wrong.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 8, 2011 10:40AM)
By the way, what I stated was stolen from Pete and Critter.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 8, 2011 11:02AM)
Original walks a fine line in Sideshow and Circus, What appears to be original today..can more likely than not be found to have been done before unknowingly..Nowadays "Its so old its New" has never been truer..I am patiently waiting for some smuck to revive the "Human Torcha"...last time I saw one was 30+ years ago in Mexico...How many acts, routines, one liners go back 50+...Antonio Olmeda and his Brother PePe (deceased) had the largest Archive of Circus acts on film that I had ever been aware of. Many a time some Act would come up w/ a "New" trick only to have the Olmedas set up a TV or screen and show them footage of that same feat! w/ different variations...
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 8, 2011 03:12PM)
I have seen several people do the gavage act. Some have asked thetube permission to do it some have not. There is no doubt in my mind matt was the first to do that so I consider him to be the creator. Its quite the expensive piece to have made. Especially if coming from a maker in the Phoenix area. How some of them afford it is beyond me.When all they do is bar shows working for a cut of the door.Either way I have only seen 1 person to do it differently for an ending and its pretty impressive/funny. Everytime though something different is shown being done on TV its going to be copied though. What is that magic saying..."there's only 10 different tricks with many variations" something like that anyways. I have never seen anyone else do the barstool of nails I made while smashing with a cinder block smash of the head of the person on it. I don't consider myself a creator. I just see it as my twist on an old act. Sure I agree you can be a creator of new equiptment but an act I just don't see anything new.Just a variation of something old. Meat head sure the piece is new as a show piece but its nasal floss.Just a variation.
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 8, 2011 04:21PM)
"There's only 10 different tricks" is a cop-out, often used as an excuse to steal, an action for which magicians are notorious. Look at how many knockoffs are for sale, often using identical PR.

Copying what you see others do on TV is also theft. If you were doing lines from a sit-com, they'd sue you for copyright infringement.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 8, 2011 05:32PM)
I asked Ward one time if I could "steal" (use) a line from his Bally... He replied "Sure!, Why not! I stole that line myself 50 years ago!" However, hardly any Acts/stunts are original anymore, What are original is the presentation...Donny Vomits masterful line "“It does Hurt, but my need for attention is greater than my threshold for pain.”..Is truly HIS trademark line and to use it w/ out permission or to use w/ permission would be a crime...Hubert Castle did a wonderful Drunk wire act w/ a backward and foward flip on the wire...James Plunkett carried on the act for Castle w/ Castle's blessing and I believe his guidance...Yet James still had to learn a Backward and the more difficult Forward flip to even begin...much more difficult then say the Blockhead,fireeating, BON et., in short out of a Hundred People, ALL could learn the Blockhead, maybe 1 or 2 could even attempt to learn Castles act...and very doubtful they could pull it off...As a side note, when I was kid (even now) Sid Lorraine was always my go to Guy for patter..

http://www.amazon.com/Lorraines-Scrapbook-collecting-MAGICIAN-ROUTINES/dp/B003COA6G4

http://magicref.tripod.com/booksjr/lorrainesidpatter.htm
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 8, 2011 05:40PM)
So here's a question, Outlaw. Let's say I spend a couple of years working something out (which has happened). Then it gets on TV (which has happened). The next week a lot of my sideshow "friends" have put it in their show (which has happened).

I work to make a good show. When they copy me, they infringe on my uniqueness, my marketability. It means I've essentially written major portions of a number of people's shows, and gotten nothing in return. Are you saying that's ok?
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 8, 2011 05:54PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-08 18:40, Harley Newman wrote:


I work to make a good show. When they copy me, they infringe on my uniqueness, my marketability. It means I've essentially written major portions of a number of people's shows, and gotten nothing in return. Are you saying that's ok?
[/quote]

I say its NOT OK!, and although I feel your pain, I do not know what recourse you may have...However, I have seen you perform Harley, and what may be taken/stloen will never be duplicated...Original Ideas/routines are custom fit to the personality and skills of the originator, Knock-offs rarely are as effective as the Original, This is what Originality brings to the table...Rest assured Ole' Friend, there is ONLY 1 Harley Newman!!...
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 8, 2011 06:57PM)
There's laws against "theft" with legal penalties. Seeing something 1 person does and doing it themselves to me would be a compliment. It would just inspire me to take it further once again. Not sit around whining that I wasnt getting credit for it. Now if I heard somebody was doing it and using my exact wording and presentation & music yeah I would be mad & would handle that in person & guarantee they wouldnt do it again. I am sure when I put my new props out there on video it will be copied and probably be a lower form of them. I kind of hope that they do get copied though with something better then I thought of. Now Harley I am not saying it is right but also not saying its wrong. It happened,it happens & will continue to happen. It all depends on how or why they do it. It sucks that you work on an original idea so long and then it starts being done all over but I have learned to accept it.
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Sep 8, 2011 07:41PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-08 19:57, Sideshow Outlaw wrote:
Seeing something 1 person does and doing it themselves to me would be a compliment.
[/quote]

To me that is the same thing as "complimenting" the guy who broke into my house and stole my television. :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 8, 2011 08:04PM)
So you're ok with thievery, because it's the way things are done, until the victim catches you in person.

You're saying that you could take The Lion King, for example, change a couple of musical notes here, a couple of lines there, make it about cheetahs, and it's ok. Disney should be ok with that, eh? It's a compliment!

Compliments are nice, but my bank doesn't care if I get them, and I suspect yours doesn't either. They don't put food on my table, at least, not directly. But thievery does and has taken food off my table. If you think it doesn't matter, and has no effect, you're sadly mistaken.

Whining? I'm not saying Yes and No, just talking straight. You asked my opinion, in both public and private, and I shall give it. And BTW, if I have laurels, I'm not resting on them.
Message: Posted by: Michael K (Sep 8, 2011 11:16PM)
If you truly believe that there are only a few magic tricks (and therefore it is OK to copy and steal from anyone living or dead) then check out Penn & Teller's show. They took that idea that there are only six methods in slight of hand and made a great routine about it. If you think that you just have to copy Melvin's blockhead act please see the Lucky Daredevil Trill Show and Tyler Fyre's very funny and very modern take on this old stunt. While there is much variation on themes, such as sword swallowing, there should be no room for outright theft of acts, stunts, and scripts.

It is very difficult to create new material, new scripts, and new props, so it should be alright to copy and steal? Instead of being ourselves on stage we should lift other performers entire personas? Instead of putting in the time and effort to come up with a really original script, we should use the same lines that have been heard for almost 100 years now? Does the fact that a good number of the people who get ripped off are dead and a good measure of them took it from someone else before them, make it right? NO! It isn't right in other arts, so why should it be in our art?

Yes I am guilty. I have used some of Melvin's lines for the "Human blockhead." However I always credit him by name and say that he was the original inventor. I say "This is what Melvin used to say..." and then I directly follow it up with "but this is what I say."

Just today I saw an old photograph of an old sideshow banner with a very classy lady walking up a tall ladder of swords. While I can guess that very few performers have an exact copy of the one in the banner (looked to be at least 15 feet high) most ladders are the same and are just a isosceles triangle. The simple triangle design works and has worked for many years. I agree with Todd Robbins' post claims that this is alright as a tradition. Did I copy and therefore steal someone's design idea...yes. Yes I did. For the moment I'm too lazy to come up with an original design. And from what I've seen of people directly "complimenting" another's creativity and hard work I'm not exactly inspired to put in the work.

With the modern growth of sideshow stunt performers there should be a new era of creative ideas and thoughts and not just a rehash of the exact same acts done the same way with the same lines. --BTW some of them are getting dated because most people don't even know what a 'boxcar' is anymore, but that hasn't stopped some folks!-- Sure our shows can be built on the shoulders of the giants who went before us, but we must stop stealing and we MUST start calling out those who do. Otherwise we will all just be parrots. Who wants to see a parrot of a parrot show?

Don't ask ask for justification, when there may be a lack of knowledge, imagination, or effort. Step up to the fantastic challenge of being yourself and creating your future. Sadly there are a too few in magic who have taken up this challenge...but I would suggest the book "Tales Of Enchantment" by Walt Anthony to prove that there is a ray of shining hope for the future. May we boldly go forward and not just be a poor, stolen imitation of other performers.

Michael
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 8, 2011 11:56PM)
My suggestion is to take up Circus Acts...Most copiers won't have the practice skills or motivation to put in the time required to learn these skills...Either way, it won't transalate into more $$$ or work/(Gigs?)...If you don't believe me, just ask a dishwasher in Sarasota Florida...
Message: Posted by: Michael K (Sep 9, 2011 12:06AM)
I'm saddened when I take a long time to write a post that tried to build up and challenge performers...and then I read the next post.

No the problem isn't undercutting. The problem is performers who cut down, steal, and say that this is good and acceptable. In so many other arts the thieving frauds are quickly hung out to dry professionally, financially, and legally, maybe it is time that we start doing the same.

Michael

P.S. I tried to edit my post to make it more succinct but I couldn't since there was another post after it.

P.P.S. I've invested almost 3 hours with this single thread in the hopes that others would be inspired and not fling petty uneducated jabs. Please forgive me in advance if I decline to respond further to poorly veiled attack posts; I've got to get back to creating and building up my show.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 12:40AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 01:06, Michael K wrote:
I'm saddened when I take a long time to write a post that tried to build up and challenge performers...and then I read the next post.

No the problem isn't undercutting. The problem is performers who cut down, steal, and say that this is good and acceptable. In so many other arts the thieving frauds are quickly hung out to dry professionally, financially, and legally, maybe it is time that we start doing the same.

Michael

P.S. I tried to edit my post to make it more succinct but I couldn't since there was another post after it.

P.P.S. I've invested almost 3 hours with this single thread in the hopes that others would be inspired and not fling petty uneducated jabs. Please forgive me in advance if I decline to respond further to poorly veiled attack posts; I've got to get back to creating and building up my show.
[/quote]

I thought your post was excellent, well thought out and Observant of a Industry wide problem..Many Valid points..I still believe Performance and Showmanship of Sideshow Arts can't be Stolen...Sure one can steal a Line...a move..et., But No one can steal the performer..Todd Robbins is Todd Robbins, Harley is Harley, et., et., Many can play "Gomez" of Addam's Family Fame, but for me..John Astin IS and always will be Gomez...Same holds true for SS arts, Circus Arts and on and on...A line, a prop, a look can be stolen, But whether or not it can be pulled off is a whole different matter...
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 9, 2011 01:28AM)
There is very little a performer can do when they have been ripped of by another perform, but saying that this practice should be expected and excepted is just adding insult to injury.

I have received a lot of help and inspiration from many performers through the years, and have tried to show them respect. I have also tried to help my fellow performers as much as possible. But I have been ripped off a great deal through the years.

The saddest part is that it just weakens the industry when material is stolen. We have enough trouble gaining respect for the sideshow arts without the taint of hackneyed being added to it.

And I have found that confronting the thieves does very little good. They will either justify their theft or go out of their way to do harm to the people they stole from.

I must admit that occasionally I do something petty to someone that stole material from me. For instance, one time at gathering of sideshow people, I went out of my way to get booked on a show the night before a thief was scheduled to appear. I knew he would be doing my glass eating routine, so I wanted to cut him off at the knees by doing it first. And the next night, when the thief did his act, I was sitting in the front row watching him. I am shamed to admit that it was enjoyable to see the thief squirm a bit as he did my routine with not only me watching, but also a room full of people that knew the score.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 9, 2011 08:54AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 02:28, Todd Robbins wrote:
There is very little a performer can do when they have been ripped of by another perform, but saying that this practice should be expected and excepted is just adding insult to injury.
[/quote]

That should have been "expected and accepted."
Message: Posted by: Martin_Ling (Sep 9, 2011 09:03AM)
Todd, I was going to fix the typo before I stole the line.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 9, 2011 09:06AM)
Thank you, Martin.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 9, 2011 09:22AM)
I posted something a moment a ago, but if seems to have vanished into cyberspace. Perhaps someone stole it. So I'll try stating it again.

If someone chooses to cloak their identity on the Café, that is their choice. Who they are is a guessing game of little interest. But if someone wishes to be anonymous, then this choice diminishes the validity of their opinion to next to nothing. And there is no reason to directly address a mystery person.

Occasionally ideas are put forth that need to be addressed. Whether they come from a cloaked individual or someone well known is irrelevant.

Two such ideas are that apathy towards thievery is acceptable and that the victim should be flattered that there material is good enough to steal. These are just wrong.

Drawing a line in the sand is not wining and complaining. Stating what is right and wrong is important as it can influence future decisions by others, especially those that come to a place like this looking for guidance.

It is always good to point out where the high road can be found.
Message: Posted by: critter (Sep 9, 2011 09:36AM)
I agree with everything Todd Robbins said.

Now what do y'all think of when the progenitor states publically that they don't mind?
For example; Dennis Rogers is said to be the first one to roll a frying pan. He's said he doesn't mind other people doing it as long as they don't cheat.
So I figure I'm OK rolling a frying pan as long as I keep it real.
On the other hand, if I then call that rolled up frying pan a "redneck hot dog cooker" then I am stealing jokes from Steve McGranahan, and that part is not cool.
Message: Posted by: petekoloz (Sep 9, 2011 11:36AM)
Years ago Lew Stamm painted a very distinctive showfront for me which I still own.
I recently discovered that someone took a photo of it and reproduced it digitally on his own front.
On 2 different occasions.
To say I was not pleased is an understatement.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 05:34PM)
There is no debating that Michael Jackson created the moonwalk. Its fact. He was an entertainer that did it onstage during a tv special. People liked it people copied/stole it. Not once have I ever heard anyone ask him to do it or thank him onstage when doing it. If you recall Criss Angel when he did his rockstar thing and made a muic Video he did it twice in it. I never heard anyone call him a thief. Why is that and how is it any different then what happens in sideshow. Weird Al makes a living off of copying others stuff and putting his twist on it. He asked Coolio to do a version of his song and was told no.Al did it anyways. Entertainers do it all the time and will continue to do so. Sideshow & magicians are the only ones really that make a big deal out of it. Until there are laws passed protecting stuff its going to happen. Whether or not I think its right or wrong has no affect on it. There is nothing I can do to change that. Unless I came into power over writing laws to protect the rights of creators and presentations.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 05:38PM)
2 years ago my Front ended up in a Church's Chicken commercial!..contacted 2 Lawyers and neither would take my case...Pissed!, No, frustrated, yes...
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 05:40PM)
Here it is...

http://www.sideshowworld.com/71-View/16-BCS/Chicken.html
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 06:13PM)
Oh wow never saw that before. Nobody would take your case yet a guy can sue McDonalds for coffee being too hot. Go figure. I think a lot has been taken wrong I have said. Until there are better specific laws on many things pertaining to sideshow protecting rights of everyone and everything I personally wont stress myself over something I cant do anything about. Its sucks sure it can stress or bother me if I let it. Maybe one day things will change who knows. I remember Enigma being mad he had his picture used in a book and Katzen was on the cover. I don't know if she was unhappy over it but I know he sure was. He felt he deserved money for it but as far as I know that went nowhere. All because the photos were from the guy that did the work on them and had copyright on them. Sure I can see both sides of being in the right. I also see Enigma in many tattoo magazines and he isn't complaining about that.
Message: Posted by: blackguyver (Sep 9, 2011 06:56PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 18:34, Sideshow Outlaw wrote:
There is no debating that Michael Jackson created the moonwalk. Its fact. [/quote]

From Wiki:"There are many recorded instances of the moonwalk, similar steps are reported as far back as 1932, used by Cab Calloway.[4] In 1985, Calloway said that the move was called "The Buzz" when he and others performed it in the 1930s.[5] In 1955 it was recorded in a performance by tap dancer Bill Bailey. He performs a tap routine, and at the end, backslides into the wings.[6] The French mime artist Marcel Marceau used it throughout his career (from the 1940s through the 1980s), as part of the drama of his mime routines. In Marceau's famous "Walking Against the Wind" routine Marceau pretends to be pushed backwards by a gust of wind"

Research the history of things before you comment on them. Sideshwo included.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 07:06PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 19:56, blackguyver wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 18:34, Sideshow Outlaw wrote:
There is no debating that Michael Jackson created the moonwalk. Its fact. [/quote]

From Wiki:"There are many recorded instances of the moonwalk, similar steps are reported as far back as 1932, used by Cab Calloway.[4] In 1985, Calloway said that the move was called "The Buzz" when he and others performed it in the 1930s.[5] In 1955 it was recorded in a performance by tap dancer Bill Bailey. He performs a tap routine, and at the end, backslides into the wings.[6] The French mime artist Marcel Marceau used it throughout his career (from the 1940s through the 1980s), as part of the drama of his mime routines. In Marceau's famous "Walking Against the Wind" routine Marceau pretends to be pushed backwards by a gust of wind"

Research the history of things before you comment on them. Sideshwo included.
[/quote]

Interesting...Can you Identify yourself now?...otherwise I am going to have to disregard your post, Not by choice, but because I am trying to follow Protocol...
Message: Posted by: blackguyver (Sep 9, 2011 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 10:22, Todd Robbins wrote:...if someone wishes to be anonymous, then this choice diminishes the validity of their opinion to next to nothing. And there is no reason to directly address a mystery person.

Occasionally ideas are put forth that need to be addressed. Whether they come from a cloaked individual or someone well known is irrelevant.
[/quote]

Poingnant, direct, revelant and on point
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 07:12PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 20:07, blackguyver wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 10:22, Todd Robbins wrote:...if someone wishes to be anonymous, then this choice diminishes the validity of their opinion to next to nothing. And there is no reason to directly address a mystery person.

Occasionally ideas are put forth that need to be addressed. Whether they come from a cloaked individual or someone well known is irrelevant.
[/quote]


Poingnant, direct, revelant and on point
[/quote]


That's just Todd Robbins opinion, and I'm not even sure He's Real yet...So if you could Fax, E-mail, or snail-mail your resume to my Offices, After reveiw, I can probaly start giving your posts merit...
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 08:46PM)
Wiki is not a reliable source. Its put together and edited by anyone. I used to screw around on that site and claim my ancestors had come up with the name for the fruit known as the orange. From that lil bit of blackguyvers infinite wisdom though I did notice it said similar not the same. So are you claiming Michael Jackson now "stole" that move? Or are you saying he saw something, knew there was no legal law protecting any alterations to it & turned it into something of his own.Because I have never seen the same thing done before he had done it. Ive seen similar but not the same. Its like DJ's sampling stuff from others in a way. The law works weird. Sometimes I want to come clean and admit Blackguyver is actually my split personality debating on topics we don't see eye to eye. Its baffles me sometimes as well.
Message: Posted by: blackguyver (Sep 9, 2011 09:38PM)
Hey "Curator", wasn't talking to you, I was commenting on Todd's comment. Besides, I've never worked a carnie lot, so my opinion doesn't matter to you anyway.

[quote]"So are you claiming Michael Jackson now "stole" that move? Or are you saying he saw something, knew there was no legal law protecting any alterations to it & turned it into something of his own."[/quote]

Yes, yes I am, and I say that to each ande evryone of you Outlaws... how many using the name and password now? I count three, maybe four so far.
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 9, 2011 09:48PM)
I took some classes with Marceau once, and he talked about teaching it to MJ.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 09:59PM)
Ok since this has gotten stupidly out of control now Ill be clear. This has been 1 person the whole time. I have switched identities many times on this account depending on what I was searching for. Now you started drama with the wrong person. Sorry to Sia and Ses for lying about who I wasnt but Im coming clean so everyone leaves innocent people alone. This is Stig and has been the whole time. Nobody else. You don't like my opinions fine. Just take them out on me . Nobody else was involved in this.
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 9, 2011 10:07PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r_WJCcBSAU
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Sep 9, 2011 10:10PM)
That is a really cool video, Todd. Thanx for sharing! :devilish:
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 10:17PM)
The moonwalk thing was to break tension. Man everytime a topic gets too heated havent you noticed I change to something totally irrelivant we are all familiar with.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 9, 2011 11:20PM)
Now I came clean to end this drama. Atleast others can man up and say they are sorry for falsely accussing an innocent party. Who know who you are.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 9, 2011 11:23PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:38, blackguyver wrote:
Hey "Curator", wasn't talking to you, I was commenting on Todd's comment. Besides, I've never worked a carnie lot, so my opinion doesn't matter to you anyway.
[/quote]

I value EVERYONES opinion..Sorry, not a 1 trick pony...Now, Please send your credentials so I too can value your opinion...
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Sep 10, 2011 09:09AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:59, Sideshow Outlaw wrote:
Ok since this has gotten stupidly out of control now Ill be clear. This has been 1 person the whole time. I have switched identities many times on this account depending on what I was searching for. Now you started drama with the wrong person. Sorry to Sia and Ses for lying about who I wasnt but Im coming clean so everyone leaves innocent people alone. This is Stig and has been the whole time. Nobody else. You don't like my opinions fine. Just take them out on me . Nobody else was involved in this.
[/quote]

Really? Stig? I don't know you. I never met you. I never did business with you. Why did you single me out and attack me? Why did you act like you knew me personally? Do you really have my picture on my desk? Was it all worth it? Yeah, things did get out of control.... you've been in control of it the whole time. You and you alone are responsible for this whole mess. I don't know you, never met, talked, shared stage, nothing. Maybe when you can be a mature responsible adult, we can talk, we CAN do business, we CAN share opinions and laugh and enjoy life. I think once you get to know me, you would apologize for being such a biblical donkey to me and realize that I'm a pretty cool person. Hey, we could even be friends.... it's possible... Critter and I went at it pretty bad, now we're chums.

Thanks for coming clean.
Message: Posted by: blackguyver (Sep 10, 2011 09:19AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 00:23, The Curator of the Unusual wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:38, blackguyver wrote:
Hey "Curator", wasn't talking to you, I was commenting on Todd's comment. Besides, I've never worked a carnie lot, so my opinion doesn't matter to you anyway.
[/quote]

I value EVERYONES opinion..Sorry, not a 1 trick pony...Now, Please send your credentials so I too can value your opinion...
[/quote]

I'm not a 1 trick pony. I'm not even a performer. Now that "stig" came out, I am no longer needed. My real name is Gene, I am 42, white and do HVAC. I am a very good friend of Nippulni, he asked me to come here to mess with Outlaw/Stig. I apologoze for lying to everyone here. Now I will perform my one and only magic act.

I will now..... dissappear
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 10, 2011 09:51AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 10:19, blackguyver wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 00:23, The Curator of the Unusual wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:38, blackguyver wrote:

I'm not a 1 trick pony. I'm not even a performer. Now that "stig" came out, I am no longer needed. My real name is Gene, I am 42, white and do HVAC. I am a very good friend of Nippulni, he asked me to come here to mess with Outlaw/Stig. I apologoze for lying to everyone here. Now I will perform my one and only magic act.

I will now..... dissappear
[/quote]

A Heating and Cooling Guy? Would of never guessed that! But I *** sure knew He wasnt a Showman...C-mon now! Got bring more Game then a Heating and Cooling Guy! LOL! Honorable Profession Heating and Cooling! and imitating a Brother to Boot!...High-Freakin-Larius!!...
Message: Posted by: Todd Robbins (Sep 10, 2011 10:12AM)
Jim,

He was just a HVAC guy that needed to vent.

[quote]
On 2011-09-10 10:51, The Curator of the Unusual wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 10:19, blackguyver wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 00:23, The Curator of the Unusual wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:38, blackguyver wrote:

I'm not a 1 trick pony. I'm not even a performer. Now that "stig" came out, I am no longer needed. My real name is Gene, I am 42, white and do HVAC. I am a very good friend of Nippulni, he asked me to come here to mess with Outlaw/Stig. I apologoze for lying to everyone here. Now I will perform my one and only magic act.

I will now..... dissappear
[/quote]

A Heating and Cooling Guy? Would of never guessed that! But I *** sure knew He wasnt a Showman...C-mon now! Got bring more Game then a Heating and Cooling Guy! LOL! Honorable Profession Heating and Cooling! and imitating a Brother to Boot!...High-Freakin-Larius!!...
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: handa (Sep 10, 2011 12:08PM)
To steal and paraphrase Jon Stetson's answer to this during another conversation, "When I see something that I like and will work for me, I pay for it and pay good money for it."

To me, it does't matter what everyone else is doing. I came from a household of people who stole cable, photocopied books and music, dubbed albums for others, and pirated software because "Bill Gates makes enough money off of people." I learned who this really hurts. I do none of that now.

I don't fear getting caught. I don't fear divine retribution. I don't even worry that someone random will see what I do that I've never met and post it all over some predominantly-green board for the rest of the world to see.

I have set my own standard based upon the teachings of people I respect deeply. I want to go to bed with a clear conscience and know that despite my ignorance of things in the past, I have learned and done better with what I do today than what I did yesterday. I seek permission and pay for things because that is what is right, not because I cannot get away with it otherwise.

Secondarily to living with myself, I don't want those workers who are friends and mentors to ignore my phone calls because I have disrespected the artform for which they care so deeply.

Whether it was a ruse or a targeted attack, thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion through this thread.

Chris
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 10, 2011 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 11:12, Todd Robbins wrote:
Jim,

He was just a HVAC guy that needed to vent.

[quote]

Todd..

Thank God that Cooler Heads prevailed...
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Sep 10, 2011 01:28PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z8mVowXLNM&feature=feedu
Message: Posted by: critter (Sep 10, 2011 01:38PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-10 14:28, Harley Newman wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z8mVowXLNM&feature=feedu
[/quote]

That's one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 10, 2011 03:39PM)
Hahah wtf. haha a heating cooling guy.thats even funnier. Nipps we have met though. don't lie. We met on one of the tours either ozzfest or Warped. Ozzfest I believe when I was with firefly is all I recall. Do I have a picture of you framed on my desk. absolutely I do. I was thinking about polishing and dusting it on video to show you. now stop saying my need to bring you in this. I asked you questions you never answered or I spoke your name when talking about a different point. not my faul you took it personal. I don't think ive ever said anything that wasnt true about you. I will not apologize or take blame because people spread rumors in private and it got out of control because of them. I never mislead them. Ive I did I would love to know how.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Sep 10, 2011 04:32PM)
I'm actually thinking of not showing up at "The Gathering" this year..As much as I would Love to pay tribute to Franco...The thought of being confronted by a Roofer, Electrician and Oh- say a Plumber?...Is just down right Creepy!....
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 10, 2011 04:47PM)
I too was thinking about going. I want to get the golden sword award
Message: Posted by: Stephon (Sep 10, 2011 10:09PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-09 22:48, Harley Newman wrote:
I took some classes with Marceau once, and he talked about teaching it to MJ.
[/quote]I don't believe you. Marceau was a mime; everyone knows he couldn't talk.
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Sep 11, 2011 02:01PM)
Three pages of posts since Ive been away working with Bucks Fizz, Right Said Fred and Slade,,,,so that goes to show that you lot aint got no work hahaha.

This Outlaw bum sure has you runnin round,,,just hang him and be done with it cos he aint no worker either,,,,,Stig,,,what a stupid name for his mummy to call him Stig, Stig come here go feed the pig stig.....nope, ID yourself proper or >>>> OFF.

Ken (Gotta go lie down,,,all this excitment and Ive been away).
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 11, 2011 03:10PM)
Hahah wow you are like the worlds oldest wanna be punk rocker. I don't own a mummy but I do have a chupacabra is that help. I call her the queen though after all the dumb things she says though. I did Id myself no stop acting like a terrorist towards americans Kondini if there is something you want to specifically know about me just ask. No need to be rude. Sometimes its just hard to make certain things you say.
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Sep 12, 2011 02:40AM)
I think your actions on here tell me all I need to know about you.

Further comment is not required.

For the record,,,Im half US, Father was a GI who faught so that **** like you can live and waste your life away. Comments re terrorist are hardly sound at this time of the year,,,still your hardly the type to be sorting the problem would you,,,,more like the cowards hideing behind a mask.

Ken.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 12, 2011 03:17AM)
Well be sure and thank your father for me then.
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Sep 12, 2011 03:49AM)
My Father is dead, buried at Baltimore.

Guess that's the sort of reply one can expect from the likes of you.
Message: Posted by: Stigmata (Sep 12, 2011 04:07AM)
Wow I wasnt sarcastic & said thank him for fighting here for freedom and you still insult me. I might have strong views and opinions on stuff that others don't agree with but I am not always sarcastic. I have been serious with you before you know.
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Sep 12, 2011 04:21AM)
Yanks don`t know how to use sarcasm in a joke way, I know that as I have worked comedy over in the US. Their take on it is sarcasm being the lowest kind of wit.

I think good people with open minds and intelligence have wasted enough time on you the invisible one, Im fed up with your childish games so will not converse in a positive way with you. You are obviousely a young whipper snapper who has not lived any sort of life yet or achieved the goal to know yourself. One day you will realize what a pratt your actions portray, then maybe you will become proud enough of yourself to drop the curtain !!! Maybe.

Apologies to the folks on here who also know what a waste of space all this has been.
Message: Posted by: Lurchenstien (Feb 28, 2012 06:00PM)
So, at the time this thread popped up, I didn't think much of it, but as I'm doing more digging about and "adding" people on Facebook, I'm starting to see more people bringing up act stealing in one way or another. Obviously this would likely be a pain to do, with numerous people claiming to have come up with acts / variations that others have staked a claim to, but would it be beneficial for there to be a list of performers and variations / acts they come up with?

L.
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Feb 29, 2012 08:17AM)
Lurch, this wouldn't happen to involve a prop that I made for you would it? Something like a hook? If so, I have been contacted (in a quite accusatory way) about the specific prop and/or act involved with it. I never replied to the b/s. As far as a list, that would be up for so much debate and heat about whose name goes with whose act and who "owns" what.

For the record, I [b]DID[/b] invent: bench grinder nipple lift, cup crushing nipple, Newton's Cradle lift, bowling pin earring bounce, full size automobile nipple tow, human cart nipple pull, and the first person in the world to lift a midget from nipples... but who really cares? Nobody.
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Feb 29, 2012 08:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-29 09:17, thegreatnippulini wrote:

For the record, I [b]DID[/b] invent: bench grinder nipple lift, cup crushing nipple, Newton's Cradle lift, bowling pin earring bounce, full size automobile nipple tow, human cart nipple pull, and the first person in the world to lift a midget from nipples... but who really cares? Nobody.

[/quote]

I am always impressed w/ new innovations...and, rest assured, I will not be attempting any of yours, much less laying claim to them...
Message: Posted by: The Curator of the Unusual (Feb 29, 2012 09:01AM)
Nipps
Just so you don't toss and turn for three days..the above post was congratulating you, and letting you know some people DO care...
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Feb 29, 2012 09:22AM)
Awww geez thanks! I came to a realization a while ago that the world really doesn't care (I know, I know, my sig below). I do my best to not take things personally. When I see others doing my invented acts, I don't really care. [b]I[/b] know I am the originator, imitation/flattery all that and so on. Now if one of those guys went out saying "I invented this" prior to the act, then I would have a problem. :) :) :)
Message: Posted by: Lurchenstien (Feb 29, 2012 11:07AM)
Nope, not the hook, nothing to do with me really, just other people saying about being ripped off. I've a couple of twists on things in the works at the moment, that I'm yet to see anyone else doing.

"the first person in the world to lift a midget from nipples" Excellent, got a picture of this by any chance?
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Feb 29, 2012 01:38PM)
Where did you find a midget that didn't mind being lifted by the nipples?
Message: Posted by: Kondini (Mar 4, 2012 10:34AM)
Think it was Dave Matkin.
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Mar 5, 2012 10:18AM)
There's a pic of it on Sideshow World I believe. I thought I had it on my site, but I can't find it. Ros, if you were a midget, how would you NOT want to take a nipple ride?

Dave is the world's tallest midget so he doesn't count.
Message: Posted by: Roslyn (Mar 5, 2012 10:23AM)
Better than Disney Land!!!!!
Message: Posted by: thegreatnippulini (Mar 26, 2018 07:50AM)
This is me super late to the party. Keeping in mind that someone here said something along the lines of "there's no arguing the fact that .ichael Jackson invented the moonwalk"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35nIo8aBw-g
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Apr 2, 2018 09:44PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2018, thegreatnippulini wrote:
This is me super late to the party. Keeping in mind that someone here said something along the lines of "there's no arguing the fact that .ichael Jackson invented the moonwalk"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35nIo8aBw-g [/quote]
He copied it from the Bounce Castle.
Message: Posted by: Harley Newman (Apr 9, 2018 04:26PM)
Jackson learned it from Marcel Marceau.