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Topic: Great new mentalism effect!
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 18, 2011 08:24PM)
Hey guys!

this is Spidey with some news.

Last year I filmed 7 effects with Wayne Houchin. He picked them from a large selection of my creations and he filmed edited and produced them. With the lauch of THeory11's the WIRE we decided to laucnh them on there. The first one is up. It is a great close up mentalism effect, and all the pros have had nothing but good things to say about it. I would love to know what you guys think.

http://www.theory11.com/wire/bedros--akkelian/celebrity-match/

If any reviewers for magazines or web sites are interested in reviewing this, please contact me ! I will gladly send the full download.

thanks guys! hope you like it! :)

Spidey
Message: Posted by: blackpine0008 (Sep 18, 2011 08:30PM)
That effect is already published, I have a dvd from dan harlan with that same principle.
Message: Posted by: Sir. Mind Reader (Sep 18, 2011 08:39PM)
Not direct enough for my tastes I'm afraid.
Message: Posted by: Ben Train (Sep 18, 2011 09:20PM)
The method being used isn't a new one (something Spidey is aware of and provides credit for)- what he is claiming is a clever, and engaging presentational hook for this type of thing.

I haven't seen the video but I have spoken to Spidey about some of his ideas for this project. If you're a worker this may very well be something you'll use (especially now the TIFF festival and award shows are happening!).

Best,
Ben
Message: Posted by: Mr. Gray (Sep 19, 2011 12:13AM)
There are previously published ways of performing this effect that have a clearer logical disconnect...
Message: Posted by: lostpoet (Sep 19, 2011 01:43AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-18 21:24, BSpideyA wrote:
It is a great close up mentalism effect, and all the pros have had nothing but good things to say about it.



Spidey
[/quote]

What pros?
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 03:01AM)
Working pros in Montreal at my opening lecture for David Stone and Michael Ammar a few months ago as well as Dan White, Wayne Houchin, David Acer, Richard Sanders who had this to say: "Spidey's Celebrity Match is a deviously clever concept. His magic is engaging, very well thought out and extremely commercial." Those are the only big names I showed it to

What I want to know is why the heck this community is so negative about everything. How bout a "congrats Spidey hope it does well" or a "this is not my type of magic but good job" why does every *** thing have to be followed by criticism, negativity, scepticism and put downs?! How is it that complete strangers are encouraging and positive yet the individuals that I call peers and colleagues are so darn condescending?! If you guys posted something, I wouldnt go out of my way to bash it? And if it want my style I wouldnt say JUST that. And if I knew other routines like it I wouldnt mention JUST that. I would congratulate you all on your success and/or say nothing.

You know what guys, I wish you the exact OPPOSITE types of critique that you have given me on what I consider to be a cool achievement!

thanks
SPidey
Message: Posted by: Looch (Sep 19, 2011 03:14AM)
Ahhhh so working Magicians you refer to


I don't think you will find much interest in here
Message: Posted by: nimrod (Sep 19, 2011 04:16AM)
First thing, Good luck with the project. Really.
You must understand: as looch hinted the names you noted don't impress the people on this forum. Sometimes even the opposite (we love them as magicians, but their understanding of mentalism is very little, many times even wrong).
By the way, the effect looks nice. A little bit too mental magic for my taste but I liked it.

Nimrod , Israel
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Sep 19, 2011 04:24AM)
You effect is very nice,congrats! But it's the wrong forum, you should post it in the card worker or someweher more appropriate for this magic effect.
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 04:34AM)
Thanks so much guys!

I understand maybe a lot of the guys here are into pure mentalism and so am i. I am above all a hypnotist/mentalist. But I thought this was a cute effect which demonstrates mental abilities in a compact simple direct way. Thank you Parmenion for the recommendation, I really appreciate it

Nimrod: If nothing else comes out of this thread, just the fact that YOU saw my effect and liked it means the world to me! I thought Shalosh and Shalosh3 were THE BEST mentalism reads in years! I recommend them HIGHLY and Wayne had nothing but great things to say about you

Looch: I love your work as well, really enjoyed your DVD

thanks guys for adding a little positivity :)

Spidey
Message: Posted by: DekEl (Sep 19, 2011 08:40AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 04:01, BSpideyA wrote:
What I want to know is why the heck this community is so negative about everything. How bout a "congrats Spidey hope it does well" or a "this is not my type of magic but good job" why does every *** thing have to be followed by criticism, negativity, scepticism and put downs?! How is it that complete strangers are encouraging and positive yet the individuals that I call peers and colleagues are so darn condescending?! If you guys posted something, I wouldnt go out of my way to bash it? And if it want my style I wouldnt say JUST that. And if I knew other routines like it I wouldnt mention JUST that. I would congratulate you all on your success and/or say nothing.
[/quote]

I honestly didn't see a single person bashing your effect. They just said that it's already been put out before, and that they didn't feel that it matched their tastes. I don't see anything that's so "darn condescending", or any post that appears to "bash it".

"I would congratulate you on your success and/or say nothing"

^^ Statements like this are what makes the Café a useless place to be. Certainly negativity and spite is not a good thing, but none of those were exhibited in the above posts. One of the major reasons why I and others visit the Café is to see what effects are actually worth buying. If every post on every effect is just a yes-man style response then I can't tell which effects are good and which ones are cr** and I might as well not come here for reviews and opinions.

Furthermore, if, as the good number of posters seem to think, the effect is not only not original but less direct, then I really don't see anything to congratulate you on. As has already been posted on threads here before, it seems that more and more one trick effects are being published that have already been published before, and furthermore they aren't even as good as the originals.

On top of that it's more of a card trick than actual mentalism as others have noted. To be honest I'm surprised that there wasn't more negativity regarding your post.

I'm being honest with you here, I congratulate you for publishing an effect, but I feel rather sorry that you had to lash out so severely over a few clarifying posts that had no negativity contained in them and merely showed you up as one who publishes something that's already out there.
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Sep 19, 2011 09:11AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 04:01, BSpideyA wrote:
What I want to know is why the heck this community is so negative about everything. How bout a "congrats Spidey hope it does well" or a "this is not my type of magic but good job" why does every *** thing have to be followed by criticism, negativity, scepticism and put downs?! How is it that complete strangers are encouraging and positive yet the individuals that I call peers and colleagues are so darn condescending?! If you guys posted something, I wouldnt go out of my way to bash it? And if it want my style I wouldnt say JUST that. And if I knew other routines like it I wouldnt mention JUST that. I would congratulate you all on your success and/or say nothing.
[/quote]

They aren't negative about everything - just rubbish.

As a piece of mentalism, your effect is second rate - and although I've not seen the Harlan DVD that is being referred to, its not original either. There is talk of this "clever" presentation hook? What is that hook? Using celebrity names? Big deal. Maybe you can repackage it again with the clever presentational hook of movie titles.

Believe it or not, The Magic Café isn't your personal promotional vehicle. When you post an effect for sale and end your 'advert' with "I would love to know what you guys think" robust praise AND criticism is what you should expect. Some people thought it was rubbish and in more cordial terms told you so. Seems you think this was improper. If I was a more cynical person it would seem that you simply want to join the self referential, back slapping hype brigade and have your "peers" praise your work or else remain silent. I'm afraid entry into this group takes a much longer period of dedicated brown nosing. Until you reach such status, you will have to take the rough with the smooth.
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 10:28AM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 10:11, Davit Sicseek wrote:
There is talk of this "clever" presentation hook? What is that hook? Using celebrity names? Big deal. Maybe you can repackage it again with the clever presentational hook of movie titles.
[/quote]

ummm are you really suggesting that a movie title is SO much more appealing than a list of male celebrities?! Ever perform for women? You know, those pretty things that constitute 50% of your audience? Ever mention Ryan Reynolds, Brad Pitt, Georges Clooney or Robert Pattinson to women? The only movie titles that will get that sort of reaction upon mention, is the movies THESE guys were in. Please; you can say male celebrities are not that great of a hook in your opinion but don't try to convince me that movie titles are much better.... but that's my opinion.

as for those of you who think Im trying to promote and sell here. I don't really care about making money off working class performers, my demography is younger hobbyists. But if many people have found value in the effect, I don't think it deserves to be classified as boring or unoriginal. Boring it isn't because I get great entertainment value out of it. And fine it may not be 100000% original, but it certainly has a few original thoughts in there.

thanks guys,
Spidey
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Sep 19, 2011 10:47AM)
[quote]ummm are you really suggesting that a movie title is SO much more appealing than a list of male celebrities?! [/quote]
I'm really not. I think you might of imagined it.

I said "big deal". Let me think, if I was going to do a card trick and I wanted to engage drunken females it would take me all of 30 seconds to have the brainwave that using celebrity names might be a good idea. Unless I knew my audience would be drunken FAT females, in which case I might write the names of high calorie snacks on the cards. That is guaranteed to hook them in. In honesty, as a mentalist - if I am drawn towards a particular card effect, consideration of using something other than playing cards is pretty much the first thing that happens.

[quote]as for those of you who think Im trying to promote and sell here. I don't really care about making money off working class performers, my demography is younger hobbyists. But if many people have found value in the effect, I don't think it deserves to be classified as boring or unoriginal. Boring it isn't because I get great entertainment value out of it. And fine it may not be 100000% original, but it certainly has a few original thoughts in there.[/quote]

It is unoriginal. I've got to call a spade a spade. It is an already published effect where you have substituted card values for celebrity names. Nothing more. There is no further engagement with the celebrity theme, no "reason", no supposed explanation for the effect. That makes it a bit boring to me - but as others have noted it can qualify as mental magic fine.

I think you are right, your work is best suited to younger (less informed and discerning) hobbyists - although in truth I think it means that the only people that will buy it are those that aren't aware there are better things available for the same money. Thankfully, since you are selling it on the glorified youtube that is "The Wire" - you will still make enough to eat! Good luck with it!
Message: Posted by: W. Mercury (Sep 19, 2011 10:50AM)
What I think:
this is your "version" of an old method.
I'll pass.

WJ
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 11:11AM)
How many effects nowadays are NOT variations of other things? seriously...lets take a look at the top 5 sellers on Murphys best seller list (aka the stuff most magic consumers find most value in)

1) Rattled by Dan Hauss: Fine awesome thinking but one could argue that its a chop cup under a bottle cap
2)Tool By David Stone: Yeah coz noone ever made things appear or vanish with tht gimmick
3)Ultra Gum By richard Sanders, Deven and Myself: well I'm not about to bash our own creation here but although the location might be very original, there are many old idea at work here
4) puncture 2.0: Karate coin meet pen through anything (not taking anything away from the idea, I think its great)
5) chop.... hehe...its in the title: one of the most talked about effects which is a remix of many existing ideas (again not taking anything away from the product)

the list goes WAY on!.... Everyone is coming up with variations

As for it being unoriginal. Honestly, and I'm being serious now, did you guys ALL immediately catch my out? Im finding it very hard to believe that everyone instinctively knows where my "other" prediction is. I find that part to be QUITE original indeed. Please don't expose but did everyone really get it?

And finally, DekEI: I get that honest criticism can help people make the right decisions. But the comments here were not after purchase where they are telling you something you don't know. You saw the trailer just as much as they did and if this isn't an effect that appeals to you, you are perfectly capable of making that decision. I totally understand if they BOUGHT the product, and discovered something that was bad and warned others about it. They watched the trailer, and nothing is being held back, I am fully honest in the description and you know what you are getting. This holds some value to many people and others might connect with it less. I just think that a little encouragement wouldnt be the end of the world. Like I said, I DO believe there is some creativity value here.

Thanks guys,
Spidey
Message: Posted by: DekEl (Sep 19, 2011 11:25AM)
Now we've digressed to discussing methods of [b]other[/b] effects. As a mentalists if there is a video trailer of an effect, if it's already been put out before then it's instantly recognizable, unlike many magic tricks. Thus they don't need to line your wallet to tell you that you're effect is not original.

Leaving this thread.
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Sep 19, 2011 11:27AM)
Thanks for just revealing the method/gimmick for David Stones 'Tool'. For those who have this, I'm pretty sure you are not happy bunnies at the momment, and for those who don't, and were perhaps sitting on the fence whether to get this or not, well perhaps now you know the secret that may have now made your minds up. Thanks spidey for saving me money this time round. But if you are going to name drop, then put David Stones quote when he knows and finds out that you have exposed 'Tool' on a public open forum and revealed the gimmick/method or secret for making the 'vanish' or 'appearence' happen.

My prediction what David Stone's face will look like... :mad:
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 11:28AM)
***... so sorry I wasnt thinking...i iwll immediately remove that....ur totally right....

darn...cant I edit an old post?!?!
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Sep 19, 2011 12:43PM)
Spidey,

Awesome! What I don't think some people (performers ?) are not understanding is how commercial this effect is!! I loved this effect, I really did! Placing a row of conversational names in front of spectators can create so much non magic/mental fun the effect is almost secondary, yet powerful. Also, the pause in the middle to ask "have I done well", regarding your choices of male celebs was classic. This is the type of effect that can 1) make people gasp and more importantly 2) make people have fun! Good luck, bro!
Message: Posted by: Godzilla (Sep 19, 2011 12:48PM)
Spidey...you can click on report this post ,and add it is exposure .

Good luck on your project !

-G
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 12:49PM)
Thanks so much man!

I really appreciate the kind words ! :) Im very happy you found value in this !!

Spidey
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 12:50PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 13:48, Godzilla wrote:
Spidey...you can click on report this post ,and add it is exposure .

Good luck on your project !

-G
[/quote]

Already did that :) thanks Godzilla and thanks for the encouragement
Message: Posted by: migwar (Sep 19, 2011 12:51PM)
I don't understand The wire at all. Are the effect sold as ebooks or physical books. As a market place it seems really aimed at vendors rather than buyers
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 01:02PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 13:51, migwar wrote:
I don't understand The wire at all. Are the effect sold as ebooks or physical books. As a market place it seems really aimed at vendors rather than buyers
[/quote]

Its either e-books or instant download videos... most are videos...like an explanation DVD except no DVD, just downloads to your computer
Message: Posted by: NexusMagicShop (Sep 19, 2011 01:11PM)
My advice Spidey: There is a hole and you are already waist deep, stop digging. I for one do not like watching ships sink. I think you are a good guy, and may deserve positive accolades for this effect and others. But you can't expect it, regardless of your status among other professionals. That and the thin skin you have shown in this post respect is not just given. In the Café you are on different ground. I don't expect you to know this by only having the interaction of 30 posts.

In the Café you are dealing with a much more Seasoned Professional.
Store owners, Working professionals of all styles, and even creators, and modifiers like yourself. I would venture to say all working professionals have created effects or modified another to fit there routine. So I guess what I am saying is the most intelligent people in Magic and Mentalism for that matter are in this forum.

Bedros, if you spend more time in here supporting others, building relationships, offering advice, and solid opinions or support for the younger magicians as many of us do. Paying it forward so to speak, the respect will come. I learned my lessons early on. Just by having my store name as my log in was an early mistake. Sure I want people to visit my store, but I was a magician first. I have a rich history in magic and Magic has been a blessing in my life. I want people to know me for me, and I think over time I have earned the respect of many, but it has taken several years of nearly daily interaction. I think the fine people of the Café see you pop in with 30 posts open a thread about your product. And then see you react negatively to there honest opinion. Now being a creator myself its hard not to react negatively when you have a personal attachment. (It's like telling a woman her baby is ugly) I get that. All I am saying is in the Café the more you give the more you get back... Give more, expect less, and it just flows the way it should.

My thoughts,
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 01:23PM)
"Now being a creator myself its hard not to react negatively when you have a personal attachment. (It's like telling a woman her baby is ugly) I get that"
lol

thanks for the sound advice Jason.

But theres been a misunderstanding. I have the worst short term memory in the world and CONSTANTLY forget passwords and login names. I've had MANY log in names on this site, this is my most recent one, I used to post a lot on here. Im not just some newbie who decided to squeeze some money out from the pros. But I really do appreciate you looking out for me and the delicacy of your delivery.

thanks
Spidey
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Sep 19, 2011 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2011-09-19 13:43, Billy-one wrote:
Spidey,

Awesome! What I don't think some people (performers ?) are not understanding is how commercial this effect is!! I loved this effect, I really did! Placing a row of conversational names in front of spectators can create so much non magic/mental fun the effect is almost secondary, yet powerful. Also, the pause in the middle to ask "have I done well", regarding your choices of male celebs was classic. This is the type of effect that can 1) make people gasp and more importantly 2) make people have fun! Good luck, bro!
[/quote]

Luke, is that you?

Spidey - you know its against the rules to have more than one account right?
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 19, 2011 08:35PM)
I don't have more than one account. What am I suppose to do with more than one account? I HAD other niknames on the site and I kept forgetting the passwords so I kept changing my user name. But at the current moment I have nothing but one account
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Sep 19, 2011 08:58PM)
[quote]I don't have more than one account. What am I suppose to do with more than one account? I HAD other niknames on the site and I kept forgetting the passwords so I kept changing my user name. But at the current moment I have nothing but one account[/quote]

Pro Tip: If you keep forgetting your passwords use the "forgot password" link.

What were these usernames? Let me guess you forgot those too? And you also deleted the email confirmations?

You can't kid kidders!
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 20, 2011 04:44AM)
For the love of God, do you guys really think that my life is a collection of lies...what would be my interest in lying?!?!

Heres a post where I commented when my name was spidey_magic. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=326409&forum=111

I cant find anything older than that but seriously, I don't even get the accusation. Why on earth would I say I had other accounts when I didn't :S... geez
Message: Posted by: voh002 (Sep 20, 2011 05:29AM)
Do not waste time on negative people BSpideyA, life is too short for that. Continue to create new effects and be happy :)
Message: Posted by: Davit Sicseek (Sep 20, 2011 07:10AM)
Maybe its not the case, but you just come across a bit untrustworthy. I can't understand why someone would create a new account and not just press "forgot password". Seem like a no-brainer to me.
Message: Posted by: Sir. Mind Reader (Sep 20, 2011 07:24AM)
So you aren't going to withdraw this item from sale now you know that it is a duplicate?

Surely the proper thing to do would be to sell your product as "the idea to use celebrities instead of playing cards" and point purchasers to the original routine for methodological instructions.
Message: Posted by: John C (Sep 20, 2011 10:27AM)
Penny for your Thoughts? I think we're up to about 100 bucks now.

J
Message: Posted by: Tony Razzano (Sep 20, 2011 12:44PM)
Post removed by author
Message: Posted by: snm (Sep 20, 2011 05:21PM)
Spidey,

I like the effect. Thanks for sharing brother. The only recommendation I have is to maybe drop the price to about $5 since it really is just an original presentation. I don't see anything wrong with selling a presentation even if the method isn't entirely original.

Plus, if you put all 7 effects up on the wire that were gonna be on the DVD for $10 a piece, that's gonna be $70! I'm sure the dvd would have only retailed for maybe $30.

I look forward to seeing more from you personally. Just try to drop those prices a bit man.
Message: Posted by: Bastien (Sep 20, 2011 10:53PM)
This is just my personal theory, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I think the negative attitudes in Penny can be attributed to a combination of two things:

1. People who are drawn to magic and mentalism tend not to be the coolest kids on the playground. Many of the biggest names like Max Maven and Derren Brown admit this. It's a somewhat nerdy endeavor. Many gravitate to it for the feeling of power and validation that comes from knowing a secret someone else doesn't. Some people are able to move beyond this idea, but many haven't.

2. The relative anonymity provided by the internet.

When these elements are combined on an online forum, a kind of internet snobbery emerges, which I find unfortunate and unwarranted. If you're able to perform magic with an engaging personality, many of these skills are transferable to mentalism.

Don't let your detractors get you down Spidey. Realize that even the greats like Banachek get slammed on Penny. It's not a particularly cuddly place much of the time, from what I've gathered.
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 20, 2011 10:56PM)
Hey man,

thanks for the recommendation and ur totally right, As soon as I put it up I thought of changing the price to 5$ but the guys over at T11 thought that 10$ was a good price and so we left it at that. Thanks so much for your kind words.

Spidey
Message: Posted by: dmoses (Sep 21, 2011 12:13PM)
Hey Spidey

Welcome to the Café.
Don't take the reception too personally.

We're just overrun at the moment by people who think they can come to the forum and sell other people's work packaged as their own as $10 ebooks and downloads without making any real contribution to the community.

I think you'll find, when you share your thoughts and ideas without an eye to make a quick buck or reputation things will warm up considerably... not with everybody-- we've got a lot of ****** here too. But they're our ****** and part of the family.

I'd also recommend reading Iain's "sticky" post at the top of this forum's thread list.

See you around... I hope.

Sincere best wishes

dave
Message: Posted by: BSpideyA (Sep 22, 2011 04:57AM)
Hey Dave

thank you for the message.

Maybe I should just come from a warmer place next time. Im not trying to make money off members here. I was just trying to maybe introduce my work to some people who havent seen it. In fact anyone who wrote to me privately about this effect here at the magic Café got a free download from me of the explanation.

This effect hit number 1 on the most popular list on theory11 this morning and has remained there since. Maybe some people who saw this thread contributed to that, maybe they didn't. But my intention was not to find clients here.

thanks for the guidance Dave,

Spidey
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Sep 22, 2011 06:34AM)
Being popular is the ultimate goal?

And some people want to watch the world burn
Message: Posted by: Pierre Emmanuel (Oct 5, 2011 06:55AM)
I hope you sell many of them, and yes, you had the courage to release something in which you believe !

But as a performer, I see many week points in your trick (and I think it is better to talk about that than to argue on .. well ripping or whatever)

- The first thing spectators see is a list of name. A girl will immediately understand she has to make a choice, and make a mental image of the cute actor she loves.. but the comes your : "Choose a number randomly"

* She must be disappointed ! You do not ask her what seems to be the obvious path for the trick..
* You create an emotional hook, and then you break it, asking a figure, which is the less appealing stuff on earth.. so in terms of construction, as the trick goes on, you degrade the feelings of the spectator.
* You lay the cards on the table, one is facing you, one is facing the spectator.. so, either she can read it, or you or the rest of the group.. but it's not a clean display. We have an issue there.
* Where are you (as a mentalist ?) in the trick ? It's not telepathy between you and spectator, it's not influencing her or bend reality.. nope, the message is 'here are some cards. Choose a number. Ok, I have an enveloppe with the same name in it.". where are you spidey ? What is your role there ? Well, you are a card dealer.

My criticism may sound hard, but these elements are key to make mentalism effects.
Is it magic, or is it mentalism ? Simple question to ask: look at the trick, and wonder if as a result the spectator will say "you are...", or "you have that ability ?". If it is "that's crazy, how did you do.. it is impressive" or anything not related to you directly, then .. it's magic.

This does not mean your trick could not be written as a mentalism trick, but .. mm.. the use of celebrity names and a figure does not help.

from the description of the trick: "No suggestion or subtleties", well, too bad !