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Topic: Civility
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Nov 6, 2011 09:07PM)
Starting Friday I posted to one of Tim Fridays threads. By Saturday afternoon the thread had degenerated into an uncivil debate about who did what and who was making what implications. Saturday evening it had degenerated further into a mud-slinging, name calling slug Fest.
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that we street performers can be a crude, and at times, ill-mannered lot. That's the street; at times a beautiful, serene place, and at other times a dirty, grimy and rough gutter. That's the way it is. I guess we find a home there is because we can adapt to it and ultimately thrive there. Maybe we are inured to the ugliness that can lurk just beneath the surface, or maybe we become so corrupted ourselves that we don't notice it anymore. And while I certainly sympathize with those who call for civility; a gentlemanly discussion/debate, sometimes the dirt can't be dealt with as expeditiously as a direct frontal assault. At least that's the way I see it. So we bring that same attitude here.
It may be unpleasant and unsavory, but that's what it takes to survive out there sometimes.
For my part in yesterdays imbroglio, to those of a gentler disposition, you have my apologies. To the rest of you, well you don't care what I say anyway do you?
Message: Posted by: vernon (Nov 7, 2011 05:41AM)
With you all the way. As 'uncivil' as I am on street sometimes I'm mostly civil on threads. I reckon some just want to 'have a go' and vent . But civility costs nowt

Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Nov 7, 2011 06:13AM)
Here and elsewhere, when one of those slug fests is developing is when I go stand on a different corner. I find it best to stay out of them.
Message: Posted by: Stperformer (Nov 7, 2011 09:03AM)
On 2011-11-06 22:07, Eric Evans wrote:
For my part in yesterdays imbroglio, to those of a gentler disposition, you have my apologies. To the rest of you, well you don't care what I say anyway do you?

Hey Eric, for what it's worth, I place your posts on the top of my list when it comes to real value.
I think a lot of it has to do with your exposure to the streets, not just in America but in Europe too. I'm not American and to me anyways, it's evident in your posts that your perceptions of magic on the street are not limited to a frontal view only. I really think that if some of those whom try to give the impression of being experts on the field of busking, would leave the comfort of home and play other places around the world....their attitudes would change. Humility would happen fast.

Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Nov 7, 2011 12:44PM)
Thanks Stperformer.

I must say that all the favorable comments and support here is very humbling -- and for all those who have commented favorably about me and my work I am very appreciative. It is difficult for me to acknowledge all of them individually because I usually feel awkward receiving compliments. Graciousness is one of the most difficult attributes to acquire, at least for me.

Referencing your observation, it amazes me how performers can work a handful of pitches and then assume the attitude of an expert. I think I've recounted this story recently elsewhere but I'll cite it here all the same.

The "expert" attitude isn't confined to our modest field of interest. Years ago, I spoke with a friend who was a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. He said that he had observed the same attitude in students who had recently acquired proficiency in Martial Arts. The new found skills were expressed in a cocky attitude, as if they were Chuck Norris, or a new Bruce Lee; in short, invincible. It wasn't until they'd had their butts kicked a few times that they began to see the value of humility.

One of the most humble people I've ever met was a Navy Seal Sniper. He was a small fellow and had seen many missions in his day. He was unassuming and needless to say, a very skilled, deadly individual.

Another factor is something I think is typical of Americans in general. Having worked in a good many countries I have noticed a profound dearth of manners here in America. In Europe, people are generally more polite to one another. As an example, saying hello and goodbye to everyone present is considered very important when gathering socially. When buying something in a store, greeting the person behind the counter is the first thing, before making a request.

Treating everyone as a person first, is most important. In fact it is indicative of an attitude that everyone is of equal importance, no matter what their station in life.

As Americans I think we've lost sight of the value of social skills. They make society run a lot smoother.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Nov 7, 2011 01:05PM)
Nice civil disussion we have going here men! It's very constructive. I thank you for taking the time to post it Eric.

Magicians are discussing the same topic in another forum here,


I've endeavoured to have the same thick skin here, that I use to help me navigate the nonsense on the sidewalk. If I can handle it there, I can handle it here, without question.

I'm enjoying what you and others have to say on this matter.
Have a great day people!
Message: Posted by: FunTimeAl (Nov 7, 2011 06:03PM)
Trying to establish a level headed conversation on a chat forum is like playing russian roullete

...with a semi automatic pistol
Message: Posted by: Ekuth (Nov 7, 2011 06:16PM)
Message: Posted by: Devious (Nov 7, 2011 06:58PM)
FunTimeAl wrote:
Trying to establish a level headed conversation on a chat forum is like playing russian roullete
...with a semi automatic pistol

Ekuth and Al, quit jackin' Eric's thread around, he has a temper ya' know! I read this on another post somewhere. Lol

In the future, nobody likes us for our ways.
An alleged time traveler, John Titor revealed this.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Nov 7, 2011 09:45PM)
On 2011-11-06 22:07, Eric Evans wrote:
It really shouldn't come as any surprise that we street performers can be a crude, and at times, ill-mannered lot.

You're certainly correct about this, I just put up a post in 'ever so sleightly', and they seem a good deal more gentle. I enjoy a good discussion and learning of other viewpoints, and perhaps at times I try to instigate a lively discussion.

The way I see it is guys like Gazzo, Kozmo, B Maverick, Eric Evans, J Talksalot, Nick Nicholas and others are my heros. These are the guys I look up to. These are the people I want to learn from, and to find out some of them might not get along, it is a little heartbreaking. But we are all human.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Nov 8, 2011 06:43PM)
Well Tim, you're being provacative in both places, and if another performer is provoking me on a pitch I'll get in his face in two shakes of a lambs tail as my Dad used to say. That's just the way it is out there.
As to those fellas you name I am good friends with all but two. Curious that one is the student of the other...birds of a feather as they say.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Nov 8, 2011 07:23PM)
One more thing, looking over my post I can see how it could be interpreted as being provocative. It is not my intention of being such -- I'm simply stating a fact that should be obvious to you and many others by now. On a pitch, I have few problems with anyone. My problems with other performers seem to limit themselves to forums thankfully.

As a result, I have endeavored to limit my participation, here in this forum at least, to one of a defensive nature.

On the other hand, you seem to enjoy stirring things up a bit. Nothing wrong with that unless you start whining about the result.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Nov 10, 2011 07:27AM)
Hi Eric, man it´s nice to see you posting here, regularly(!), again. I always enjoy reading your thoughts. They tend to contain, well,... thought.

I took the time to go to `the Tim Friday´ Post you mentioned. hmm, started as an interesting thread,.. too bad. Actually, too bad it got personal. I think that was the mistake,. and I think THAT is the Key to Civility. We can think, and dream, and philosophi,.. and SHARE the morsels; but we shouldn´t personally use them to slap another. (I think you might have done that in the `Tim Friday´ thread.)

Let´s keep dreaming, thinking, practising, creating,.. and SHARING; but swallow ourselves a bit. I know, this is such a contradiction(!), because THIS is exactly WHAT we are trying to share!,.. the ONLY thing we CAN share. Ourselves.
Still, we live with the puzzle. And Civility is the only way to live with other´s,... living the same puzzel.

give it easy,
Message: Posted by: Nick Broad (Nov 13, 2011 11:52AM)
As a [i]very[/i] new member to this forum, I can say that I've never been to a more entertaining, humorous and [i]risky[/i] forum. People here are happy to criticise frankly, which is refreshing (and very "street"). And sarcasm, which rarely works online, abounds here. You all should feel proud of that.

Myself, I try (often unsuccessfully) to live by the rules set in writing groups

1. If you're negatively criticised for something, you don't respond, and you [i]definitely[/i] don't respond defensively.
2. If you think a point has been misunderstood, which led to the criticism, it IS your fault.
3. If you need to clarify a point, apologise first, then clarify.
4. Only listen seriously to the criticism of people you trust/respect

Some users here are definitely more abrasive than they need to be. Perhaps even taking pleasure in being "on the edge" or harsh. That comes across in their posts, and I think we can ALL see when it's happening. Maybe we can remember more often that everyone else can also see when someone's being an ass. Let them talk for themselves.
Message: Posted by: Devious (Nov 22, 2011 08:42PM)
I gravitate towards this forum, because most of the men who post here, aren't posers.
That "edge" that you speak of is genuine and it exists out there on the pitch as well.

I thank each of you for all of the free entertainment and writing material.
Peace not Pieces! ~ Devious
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Nov 23, 2011 05:39AM)
May I add to this,
One thing I am learning, The streets to me are far more honest than any forum or convention than I have been on,
First of it does not matter what other magicians or buskers are saying behind your back. The only thing that matters is the audience in front of you.
If they laugh, if they enjoy if they commend you. If you know you are doing a good job or striving towards that end, power to you.

It strikes me some newcomers have been ill informed about others performers it is like they indirectly are quoting another performer, like a smoking gun kind of thing.
In some cases they have not even meet.

I cant stand been around bad talk, you know slaging off someone. One pro trying to shred their integrity of the other behind their back, why would any one do that, I don't get it?
This is where these forums lie, you see on the street the same folk who do that will go and use the very folks they're talking about.
They will stay in their homes and eat at the same table of the man they just slagged of. They will smile to their faces if it suits them

I have discovered their is no point trying to work them out.
These days I just walk away from ill bad talk regardles, or if I cant (On location) I will just say, I don't want to talk about this can we change the subject. All at worst I will say It is unfair to talk about the person in such ways if they are not present. You can rest assured that I will say the same if your not pressent.

The great news, not all performers or buskers are like that, in fact most arnt. Most performers that I have meet are very positive in their out look. They will embrace you first with a friendly smile. They don't want to be around negative grind, that is why they took to busking in the first place.

The streets are a tough place I hear many people say and its true and they can shape the very will of a person and that says it all. In the same breath we can shape the streets even in just little ways. What you put out their can count. You can be positive force of change in your show and in our lives. That is what I have discovered and I love doing, At times the last thing I want to do is go out and perform. I may have had a few knocks my spirit is down, you know I just don't want to bloody smile today, shop is closed. To me I love it when I can turn me around and overcome that. Not only that but I put a smile on someone else's day, that to me is a magical way to make a living.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Nov 23, 2011 10:40AM)
Nice post Mario, thanks.