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Topic: What kind of sleight-of-hand skill is the most useful for cheating?
Message: Posted by: Logston (Nov 28, 2011 03:17PM)
Hi, I'm just starting to become an expert at the card table. Im now trying to learn how to Bottom deal. I know seconds are very useful, maybe some centers or greek shuffles also, what does an expert con also needs?

Logston.
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 28, 2011 03:50PM)
Sleight of mind.
Message: Posted by: alliance (Nov 28, 2011 04:51PM)
I think bottom deal is useless now. Greek deal and center are too difficult to use in a real game. It's more magician stuff for gambling demonstration.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Nov 28, 2011 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 16:17, Logston wrote:
what does an expert con also needs?
[/quote]
......larceny in his blood and a hungry family to feed.

All the rest is hype and marketing.
Message: Posted by: Logston (Nov 28, 2011 05:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 17:51, alliance wrote:
I think bottom deal is useless now. Greek deal and center are too difficult to use in a real game. It's more magician stuff for gambling demonstration.
[/quote]

Is there still a way to make money then?
Message: Posted by: panlives (Nov 28, 2011 05:14PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 16:17, Logston wrote:
Hi, I'm just starting to become an expert at the card table. Im now trying to learn how to Bottom deal. I know seconds are very useful, maybe some centers or greek shuffles also, what does an expert con also needs?

Logston.
[/quote]


An exit strategy.


Artifice, Ruse and Running Shoes at the Card Table.
Message: Posted by: Logston (Nov 28, 2011 05:43PM)
I practise about 3 or 4 hours a day on bottoms, I feel that soon they wil be perfect. Sometimes I don't even see the diference between a normal and a bottom, I know I can cheat with this move. Im just asking for some other good moves.

Logston
Message: Posted by: The Dowser (Nov 28, 2011 06:04PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 18:43, Logston wrote:
I know I can cheat with this move.
Logston
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: panlives (Nov 28, 2011 08:51PM)
I said it and I say it again, "Artifice, Ruse and Running Shoes at the Card Table."
Message: Posted by: Logston (Nov 29, 2011 06:12AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 21:51, panlives wrote:
I said it and I say it again, "Artifice, Ruse and Running Shoes at the Card Table."
[/quote]

Thanks, Didn't get that the first time.

Logston.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Nov 29, 2011 06:51AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 18:10, Logston wrote:
[quote]

Is there still a way to make money then?
[/quote]

Yeah, go to school, study hard and get a job.
Forget all this foolishness, if you got to ask here to learn, youre an emergency room patient waiting to happen.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 29, 2011 06:58PM)
It all depends on the card table.
Message: Posted by: DavidGold (Nov 29, 2011 07:23PM)
Hey I'm not trying to be mean but you did not "perfect" your bottom deal you can spend you entire life just practicing one single slight and by how much your practicing I would say maybe 10 years until you have perfected your bottom deal. Secondly Learn the basics (false shuffles and cuts,passes and misdirection)before you even consider to try and learn centers and the Greek deal, I have been practicing gambling slights for around 2 years and I JUST started to learn centers, and as for cheating at a real game please make sure you have a very good pair of running shoes and a first aid kit. I sincerely wish you the best of luck

David
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Nov 29, 2011 11:45PM)
Try to master riffle stacking. That's your best bet.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Nov 30, 2011 05:14AM)
Logston, read your first post and your third one... You sound like blackeagle
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Nov 30, 2011 06:07AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 17:51, alliance wrote:
I think bottom deal is useless now. Greek deal and center are too difficult to use in a real game. It's more magician stuff for gambling demonstration.
[/quote]

Depends entirely on the table. There were games where I based dealt pretty much the entire way through. Also depends on the use of a cut card or not.
You can't say : bottoms are useless now. They are still as useful today as they were 15 years ago. It just depends on knowing the company and the table you are in (aka. psychology is more important then any sleight).

Safest way to cheat? Work in cahoots and make up some code. Also ringing in a cooler is 1 move a night instead of 50+ moves a night (or whatever you fancy).
Another way to win at poker is to be actually good at poker (or the game you are playing). That way you can make people give them your money even when not advantage playing.

Riffle stacking was mentioned before. When done correctly, it looks absolutely convincing.
Message: Posted by: panlives (Nov 30, 2011 07:12AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-30 07:07, Erdnase27 wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-11-28 17:51, alliance wrote:
I think bottom deal is useless now. Greek deal and center are too difficult to use in a real game. It's more magician stuff for gambling demonstration.
[/quote]

Depends entirely on the table. There were games where I based dealt pretty much the entire way through. Also depends on the use of a cut card or not.
You can't say : bottoms are useless now. They are still as useful today as they were 15 years ago. It just depends on knowing the company and the table you are in (aka. psychology is more important then any sleight).

Safest way to cheat? Work in cahoots and make up some code. Also ringing in a cooler is 1 move a night instead of 50+ moves a night (or whatever you fancy).
Another way to win at poker is to be actually good at poker (or the game you are playing). That way you can make people give them your money even when not advantage playing.

Riffle stacking was mentioned before. When done correctly, it looks absolutely convincing.
[/quote]


Reads well.

'Nuff said.
Message: Posted by: Logston (Nov 30, 2011 07:25AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-29 20:23, DavidGold wrote:
Hey I'm not trying to be mean but you did not "perfect" your bottom deal you can spend you entire life just practicing one single slight and by how much your practicing I would say maybe 10 years until you have perfected your bottom deal. Secondly Learn the basics (false shuffles and cuts,passes and misdirection)before you even consider to try and learn centers and the Greek deal, I have been practicing gambling slights for around 2 years and I JUST started to learn centers, and as for cheating at a real game please make sure you have a very good pair of running shoes and a first aid kit. I sincerely wish you the best of luck

David
[/quote]

Dear David, maybe that story tells more about yourself than it tells about me. :)

Erdnase27 Thank you very much for the useful comment

Logston.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Nov 30, 2011 09:17AM)
Remember that it is not enough to just master one single technique most of the time. For example, you could master a bottom deal, but it would be quite useless without knowledge of the bottom cards (so a cull should be mastered, a false shuffle to keep the bottom stock intact and a method to nullify the cut, for example a shift[not that advicable], copping the cards or using a partner).

It isn't that much a matter of what is the most useful , in the end everything just flows together.
Message: Posted by: blackeagle (Nov 30, 2011 10:54AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-30 06:14, iamslow wrote:
Logston, read your first post and your third one... You sound like blackeagle
[/quote]

Wow, logston does sound like me.

[quote]
Dear David, maybe that story tells more about yourself than it tells about me
[/quote]

Easy on the retorts, they don't get you anywhere.

I know, its hypocritical for me to say that but it is true...
Message: Posted by: splice (Nov 30, 2011 02:52PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-30 08:25, Logston wrote:
Dear David, maybe that story tells more about yourself than it tells about me. :)
[/quote]

I guarantee that in 5 years you'll either have a crappy deal or you'll look back on this comment and feel immense shame. Maybe both.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Nov 30, 2011 07:28PM)
I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean :)

Of course, this is a very personal decision.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 1, 2011 04:30AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-30 20:28, Expertmagician wrote:
I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean :)

Of course, this is a very personal decision.
[/quote]

The great disadvantage of stacking is :

a) when a player leaves, your stack is screwed
b) when an entire stack needs to be preserved, you have to beat a cut (instead of copping cards).

Ofcourse, all this is not necesarily a problem and stacking is great, but false dealing has a lot of virtues that stacking doesn't have (but I am sure you are aware of that :D just saying:) ).
Message: Posted by: DavidGold (Dec 1, 2011 05:52AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-30 20:28, Expertmagician wrote:
I am personally a riffle stack guy......laymen have heard about seconds and bottoms, so they may look at the deal more carefully.

So, I personally like doing the dirty work during the shuffle, so I can deal clean :)

Of course, this is a very personal decision.
[/quote]

I completly agree and its a shame that most laymen know about centers and bottoms but I still belive that they are usefull if done right, If you have practiced your seconds and bottoms enough where you don't have to change your dealing speed at all and you do not give any tells for your false deals than I think they are a very usefull tool to use. laymen might know about the second and bottom deal but it dosent mean they know how to do it or what to look for :)

David
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 1, 2011 06:53AM)
Why should they suspect you anyway?
Just a regular guy playing some cards ;)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 1, 2011 02:50PM)
Hi all.

One of the best weapons available is stacking. Personally, I use stacking and second deal for years and I've never been caught. Stacking, when you are permanent dealer, is the best tool for your partners.

Bottom deal might be pretty interesting but more and more games are using cut cards nowadays. I'm talking for myself here, but it's ages I haven't seen a game without a cut card (talking about Poker, of course).

False running cuts and false cuts can be pretty useful too.

Never underestimate signaling and collusion. Well done it's almost undetectable and possibilities are endless.

Greek deal, center deal, etc. Well...
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Dec 1, 2011 03:12PM)
Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac
Message: Posted by: DavidGold (Dec 1, 2011 05:18PM)
The glimpse goes great with a push off second deal or a bottom or greek deal to reserve the top card or bottom card for yourself.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 2, 2011 05:41PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-01 15:50, AMcD wrote:
Hi all.

One of the best weapons available is stacking. Personally, I use stacking and second deal for years and I've never been caught. Stacking, when you are permanent dealer, is the best tool for your partners.

Bottom deal might be pretty interesting but more and more games are using cut cards nowadays. I'm talking for myself here, but it's ages I haven't seen a game without a cut card (talking about Poker, of course).

False running cuts and false cuts can be pretty useful too.

Never underestimate signaling and collusion. Well done it's almost undetectable and possibilities are endless.

Greek deal, center deal, etc. Well...
[/quote]

QFT :)
Message: Posted by: NFS (Dec 2, 2011 06:13PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-01 16:12, Vincero wrote:
Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac
[/quote]

I did the math on it once. In hold'em, being able to peek and control one card each street increases the strength of your hand by about 20% each time. Not good enough in my opinion, considering how situational the move is, [i]and[/i] how seldom you'll be the dealer and seeing the turn and river, [i]and[/i] how seldom your opponent has a decent hand to call with. Better options are available.
Message: Posted by: Vincero (Dec 3, 2011 01:54AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-02 19:13, NFS wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-12-01 16:12, Vincero wrote:
Nice to see you posting again, Arnold. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the glimpse. Knowing the position and value of just one card can lend a huge advantage to the player with this knowledge. Of course, the glimpse usually has to be used in conjunction with one, or a few of the other techniques mentioned above.

Zac
[/quote]

I did the math on it once. In hold'em, being able to peek and control one card each street increases the strength of your hand by about 20% each time. Not good enough in my opinion, considering how situational the move is, [i]and[/i] how seldom you'll be the dealer and seeing the turn and river, [i]and[/i] how seldom your opponent has a decent hand to call with. Better options are available.
[/quote]

Fair point, but as you note, it does depend largely on the game you're playing.
Message: Posted by: scalito (Dec 3, 2011 05:45PM)
I suggest you watch The Man with the Golden Arm (Sinatra), The Hustler (Newman,Gleason) and Kingpin (Harrelson, Murray). All address the inevitable.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Dec 4, 2011 11:24PM)
AMcD,

I agree that signaling and collusion are VERY powerful.....while practice is required......it easily gives professionals the edge they need.
Of course, people in this forum prefer methods which require more practce and skill....such as seconds, bottoms, palming, stacks, punch, strippers, marked cards, etc, etc. etc.

However, in some environments "like public tournaments" with an official dealer signaling and collusion may be easiest, best and safest....assuming you can trust your partners :) Using gaffs and sleight of hand on televised events is crazy in my opinion....But, collusion is VERY hard to prove.
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 5, 2011 12:01AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-05 00:24, Expertmagician wrote:

Of course, people in this forum prefer methods which require more practce and skill....such as seconds, bottoms, palming, stacks, punch, strippers, marked cards, etc, etc. etc.

[/quote]
What people?
You got a lotta jam presuming to speak for the "people" in this forum.
You certainly don't speak for me, in fact, I seriously doubt you speak for anybody but yourself.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Dec 5, 2011 03:55AM)
Silverking don't quote me on this but I think that Expertmagician was just speaking in general because collusion and hand signals haven't been spoken about too much here at the Café.

Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 5, 2011 06:55AM)
@Doc, Expertmagician

I get your point and I agree. Many people here rely on skills, or dream of an invisible and perfect sleight of hand. Legendary moves. That's why we read questions about the Greek Deal or the Center Deal. Yet, 3 guys playing together at a table are much more powerful than a single-o master of the Middle Deal!

Many people here are just interested in hand techniques, it's a Magic forum after all. And, for sure, sleight of hand techniques are wonderful to watch. Everyone would enjoy being a master in Greak Dealing! Not to mention the Middle Deal. But even if it's still possible that someone has made some money out of them, in true play there are far better techniques to use. Sometimes not even involving sleight of hand, or very easy methods, like killing cards. But how many people really know how to control slugs just using genuine riffles? Certainly not a wide spread field :).

For example, there are dozen of methods people call "advantage play" allowing to gain a nice advantage and less risky than a false deal.

But, of course, when you talk with people, it's sexier to say "yeah, tonite I'm gonna rip off suckers using Middle Dealing" than "Us? Oh, we just signal our cards each other".

Anyway, what matters really is what's working for you, what fits your needs. I wouldn't bet that Middle Dealing is a good candidate for many people though...
Message: Posted by: silverking (Dec 5, 2011 09:02AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-05 04:55, Unknown419 wrote:
Silverking don't quote me on this but I think that Expertmagician was just speaking in general because collusion and hand signals haven't been spoken about too much here at the Café.

[/quote]
You're probably right Doc.

Collusion being the most prevalent form of cheating at cards (is there a Bridge player anywhere who doesn't signal his partner?), I found the comment odd.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 6, 2011 04:22AM)
Location play and killing cards offers a very strong advantage. Collusion is another one of those ruses that defy all detectability.
Message: Posted by: Expertmagician (Dec 6, 2011 09:15PM)
Let me clarify......I, personally, prefer sleight of hand of clever gaffs.....there is a sense of satisfaction when a successful sleight or rouse if pulled off.
But, collusion has serious advantages.... (Especially, if you don't shuffle or deal the cards.)

Nor do we talk about the old fashoned methods which card hustlers supposedly used to communicate (even if the never knew each other). Such as those described in the Road Hustler book.

I guess I mis-spoke when I said "people in this forum".......I did not mean to represent other people's opinion. But, as DOC stated....I simply wanted to point out that collusion is rarely, if ever, discussed in this section....

More of en emphasis is placed on methods which tend to take more practice.

I know...I know.....collusion also takes practice to avoid detection....Even using marked cards subtlety takes skill and thought to avoid detection. But, in comparison to learning a good bottom deal, riffle stack, cooler, etc. ..... collusion is easy :)

The main problem with collusion is really trusting your "partner in crime".
Message: Posted by: acesover (Dec 7, 2011 04:54PM)
Reading the posts about having good running shoes is I believe a thing of the past. Let me explain. Perhaps 40 or 50 years ago when someone was caught cheating they were given a good beating and perhaps depending on the players sometimes never heard from again. I personally know of no disapperances but know of two, how shall I say it bad beats (pun intended). However things change.

Today in my area we have small games to rather large games and if a cheater is found he gets the worse punishment of all. He is banished from all games in the area which unless he is a roaming pro is devasting for him as he can play nowhere in the area. It is a tight knit group here. I am speaking of backroom games and home games here not Casino enviorment. By that I mean I can go to a home game or one of my own games or someone elses run game and almost always encounter few people I know other than the person who invited me. If you cheat and are found out you are banned and that is just as bad as a beating (depends on the beaters attitude at the time of course :) ).

We had an incident just recently (past 6 months) where an individual was caught cheating in a game that the final prize was a seat to the WSOP plus travel expense (this was to run for 15 weeks) and this was a person who has played at my games for several years and to my knowledge never cheated there. Long story short he can not find a game anywhere at this time. His cheating was extremely simplistic. While dealing glimpsing the bottom card and controling the first 2 cards dealt. Not much of an advantage with a full table but quite an advantage for a short table. Sad thing is he was a good player and really did not have to cheat to stay ahead of the game.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 8, 2011 03:01AM)
Ofcourse the advantage player who isn't completely suicidal choses his victims. I don't think that most cheaters are gonna sit down with mobsters and start a game in which they are planning to cheat.
Message: Posted by: NFS (Dec 8, 2011 03:58AM)
You can't be too sure of who you're playing with anyway.

I heard old stories of guys finding out [i]after the fact[/i] that the group they cheated the week before were in fact made men.

I'm not convinced knowing this at the time would have made a difference. Unless you're willing to sleep outside, the job needs to get done.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 8, 2011 05:22AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 04:58, NFS wrote:
You can't be too sure of who you're playing with anyway.

I heard old stories of guys finding out [i]after the fact[/i] that the group they cheated the week before were in fact made men.

I'm not convinced knowing this at the time would have made a difference. Unless you're willing to sleep outside, the job needs to get done.
[/quote]

Im not much of a full time hustler, but I do think a short background check is in order before you start playing for lets say 6000k soft game. Ofcourse you can be assured that this is rarely needed in the 5$ league.

Would be painful to hear that btw.. like * auch* hehe :)
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Dec 8, 2011 06:46PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 04:58, NFS wrote:
You can't be too sure of who you're playing with anyway.

I heard old stories of guys finding out [i]after the fact[/i] that the group they cheated the week before were in fact made men.

I'm not convinced knowing this at the time would have made a difference. Unless you're willing to sleep outside, the job needs to get done.
[/quote]

Depends on who and where. Even if you beat some of them guys on the square, you still might not get paid, lol. Remember the old movie The Cincinnati kid, the beginning where the kid beats the guy and the guy claims he cheated him ? Them guys aint above pulling that on you and if you beef, you get your head opened up.
Stay far away from social clubs, you will live longer.
Message: Posted by: jfquackenbush (Dec 8, 2011 08:24PM)
I saw some guys playing for solid money the other night in a bar. they were all overhand shuffling. there was no cut card. nobody at the table struck me as more than a mediocre player. I watched them play for a good three hours off and on. They were really pretty much begging to be ripped off. I'm sure I could have gotten away with pretty much anything if I'd sat down to play. I'm also pretty sure I could have beat them without cheating. Because the most important thing about playing cards is to learn how to play cards. The best center deal and riffle cull in the world are not gonna do you a *** bit of good if you can't play poker really well. If you want to make money playing poker, get the game down. Worry about moves after you can sit down at a soft game and not have to worry about going broke.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Dec 8, 2011 09:04PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 21:24, jfquackenbush wrote:
Because the most important thing about playing cards is to learn how to play cards. The best center deal and riffle cull in the world are not gonna do you a *** bit of good if you can't play poker really well. If you want to make money playing poker, get the game down. Worry about moves after you can sit down at a soft game and not have to worry about going broke.
[/quote]

Exactly right !
Message: Posted by: NFS (Dec 8, 2011 11:19PM)
****! The secret is out!
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 9, 2011 05:13AM)
Being a good player has always been and will always be the rule #1. Be it only to know when to move, when not to look suspicious. Psychology is also very important.

If I remember well in the movie "Yonkers Joe" there is a scene where the cheat waits the last card to get the winning Ace (7 card Stud if I still remember well). It's the best way to get the light on you when cheating, lol. (BTW it's an excellent movie, watch it if you can).

I've won several local tourneys just because the guys were poor or low players, there was no need to cheat! How many players rely on luck or their supposedly Poker skills? A big percentage I'd say!

About the moves to use for cheating, it also depends how you play. Single-o, with one partner, with a team, etc. Sometimes big sleight of hands will do the stuff, sometimes very basic ones. Not to mention new technologies requiring no skills at all, but psychology only.
Message: Posted by: Erdnase27 (Dec 9, 2011 10:15AM)
Ofcourse learning how to actually play poker is important ;)

If the topictitle wasnt "what SLEIGHT-OF-HAND SKILL is the most useful for cheating" I would be inclined to say: learn to actually play poker (bluefirepoker.com , Deucescracked.com , tournamentpokeredge.com etc). Well.. I talked about collusion also so its not entirely fair to not mention Learning how to play. I took that one for granted because I assumed the Topic Start already knows how to play above average poker.
Message: Posted by: Logston (Dec 11, 2011 09:25AM)
I do play above average poker :)
Message: Posted by: john oleson (Jan 21, 2012 07:08PM)
The cooler is the ultimate.

If you play in a regular game with friends, getting the rep of a cheat is not one of envy. Cheat at cards, cheat at life.

If a game with strangers, remember Fast Eddie Felson from the Hustler ... ouch!

One of the primary reasons Hold 'em has picked up interest = the deck leaves the hand of the dealer.

jo
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Jan 22, 2012 05:42AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 20:08, john oleson wrote:

If a game with strangers, remember Fast Eddie Felson from the Hustler ... ouch!

[/quote]

It would be interesting to know how many guys got themselves killed or hurt by thinking they were sharper than everyone else. Its like a friend of mine is fond of saying : " The can is full of guys who thought they wouldnt get caught."
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Jan 22, 2012 11:07AM)
Brazilian ju-jitsu.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Jan 22, 2012 12:08PM)
There is an old saying in sideshow, "If you've never been burned, you are not a fire-eater, yet."
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 22, 2012 12:55PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 06:42, Tony45 wrote:
"The can is full of guys who thought they wouldnt get caught."
[/quote]
Yes, but isn't that where one gets his post graduate training. Or course, I don't recommend that approach to learning unless one has a hard head and can't learn any other way. LOL
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 22, 2012 05:58PM)
In my opinion, there is no “best” or “worst” sleight of hand skill to know for hustling. It depends on many factors. If anything, it is generally best to use sleight of hand as little as possible.

The first and primary ability is skill at playing the game you are looking to beat. That enables one to cheat infrequently and only as necessary. There are many moves that can be used if applicable for the game being played, if one is practiced with that move and has the experience to use it at the right time. That is critical. Experience and grift sense is more important than any move.

However, if one cheats many games over time, eventually he will get caught or “nailed.” If the cheat is playing in rough and tumble games and is not very good at what he does, he can be nailed by just about anyone and will be in big trouble, especially with blue collar guys or even worse, street punks, drug dealers or thugs. Even if he is fairly good, if caught in that type environment he can be in big trouble.

If a cheat is skilled and plays in higher level games with business people, executives, doctors, lawyers and so on, his chance of getting nailed diminish considerably and if caught the consequence are less physically severe. Mostly he will be blacklisted in that game and perhaps in other games in the area. If another hustler nails him the worst he may encounter is a knowing look or maybe even team up with that hustler.

The best cheaters move infrequently if at all. They will use major moves once in a while at the right time (like a cooler), and/or be content to play a good game and use more subtle and safer methods (like location in its various forms, simple riffle shuffle controls, a light bend or light daub, etc.) where their chances of getting caught are almost zero.

Quite frankly, great manipulative skill is completely unnecessary to beat most games and to become successful at hustling. While it is good to master two or three good solid moves, do them well and be able to apply them at the right time, mastering a large repertoire of moves is a complete waste of time and effort for a hustler and does more harm than good. Of course, one has to know all the moves to protect himself, but only needs to concentrate on a few that are necessary for actual use. Some cheats go through their entire life using one or two moves, others go their whole life without mastering any moves at all.

Successful card hustling does not usually take great manipulative skill. It takes brains, timing, psychology, grift sense, etc. It may take some skill and mastery, and some hustlers are quite skillful, but a decent piano player is as skilled as or more skilled than most everyday hustlers. Further, being skilled at “gambling” moves and being successful at hustling are two different abilities, although one does not necessarily obviate the other. The people with great skill are oftentimes the demonstrators with their myriad of (mostly impractical) moves and they usually could not beat a good game even if they wanted to.

I sometimes enjoy watching skillful demonstrators show their moves on YouTube and I commend them on their ability and dedication in that regard. However, top hustlers don’t demonstrate and show their gaffs and moves on YouTube, blab about their hustling ability or appear on Facebook. (We are not talking about expose experts, gurus and so forth here. We are talking about the people that [i]actually walk the talk[/i], not talk the walk.) They are much too smart for that and are busy making money with their ability, not wasting their time making videos.

I have known some of the best real time card and dice men in my lifetime, and to them it would be total insanity to expose or demonstrate what they do, or even to let others not involved with them know they were "capable." To “tip” to outsiders would be considered total insanity for these gents.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Jan 23, 2012 12:39AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-22 18:58, Cagliostro wrote:
However, top hustlers don’t demonstrate and show their gaffs and moves on YouTube, blab about their hustling ability or appear on Facebook. (We are not talking about expose experts, gurus and so forth here. We are talking about the people that [i]actually walk the talk[/i], not talk the walk.) They are much too smart for that and are busy making money with their ability, not wasting their time making videos.

I have known some of the best real time card and dice men in my lifetime, and to them it would be total insanity to expose or demonstrate what they do, or even to let others not involved with them know they were "capable." To “tip” to outsiders would be considered total insanity for these gents.
[/quote]

There it is, the truth for all to see.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 23, 2012 09:52AM)
I fully disagree, you are confusing cheats and thieves.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 23, 2012 10:40AM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 10:52, AMcD wrote:
I fully disagree, you are confusing cheats and thieves.
[/quote]I don't understand the response. Would you be kind enough to clarify.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jan 23, 2012 11:29AM)
I'm confused myself, Arnold. All cheats are thieves, though not all thieves are cheats. At least in my understanding.

But what do I know, since I'm an honest guy who is neither a cheat nor a thief?
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 23, 2012 12:36PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-21 20:08, john oleson wrote:

One of the primary reasons Hold 'em has picked up interest = the deck leaves the hand of the dealer.

jo


? huh ?
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 23, 2012 03:35PM)
@stone, cagliostro

I'm afraid my English is too poor for such subtleties but let's try it.

Cheating, as a general rule, is using trickery to swindle, deceive, take advantage, etc. You don't necessarily hide yourself when you cheat. Just take a look at any professional sport game, like hockey, basketball, soccer, etc. Many players cheat, pull shirts, claim they didn't walk on the lines (while they really did), claim they scored (while they didn't), etc. They cheat under your very nose, filmed by dozens of cameras. And they don't care. They steal nothing, they just try to get an (unfair) advantage on their opponents. Yet, even if they know we have slow motion, cameras, referees, they cheat or, at least, they try.

Let's take a robber now. Unless he's stupid, he conceals his moves! He doesn't want cameras around him. He does nothing if he can be spotted. And he doesn't care about taking advantages, he cares about stealing something, separate you from something that belongs to you! It's not virtual, like a goal, it's real, like your money or jewels.

Almost all robbers steal for their living. Many cheats don't. Of course, there is a difference between a crew swindling a casino for 500 grands and me stacking for 500 bucks. But in the first case, it's for their living, in my case it's merely for fun.

A student cheating at his exam steals nothing. He can brag about his methods on youtube, who cares? As long as he doesn't show his face... A robber planning to loot a bank is not gonna expose his technique on youtube!

Showing card techniques, exposing card moves has nothing to do with being a real cheat or not. It's the purpose of the moves that makes you a thief or not, what you do with that knowledge.

I hope you get my thinking.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 23, 2012 07:57PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 16:35, AMcD wrote:
@stone, cagliostro

Showing card techniques, exposing card moves has nothing to do with being a real cheat or not. It's the purpose of the moves that makes you a thief or not, what you do with that knowledge.

I hope you get my thinking.
[/quote]
With respect, I do not get your thinking on this at all. It is an academic discussion not based upon the real world of hustling.

First of all, what robbers may or may not do is irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with my discussion although an argument can be made that not all robbers steal for a living. They may steal to enhance their income.

Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period. I would have to respectfully suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to.

The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. What they do and how they do it may be considerably different from what you think and may exceed your knowledge base. It is hard to convey in words how completely moronic it would be for them to demonstrate what they do or how they do it, in addition to being an incredible waste of time. These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off.

People raised on DVDs, books and/or the latest spouting of a guru think differently from hustlers who have learned from other hustlers and are doing this on a continual basis in a setting where secrecy is paramount. There is so much expose nonsense out there nowadays, mostly done by people who could not make two cents in a game, that people who learned from this format don’t understand the concept of keeping a low profile, not tipping what they do, etc. To the expose crowd it is all fun and games. To the top people who use this stuff on a serious level, it is not fun and games at all.

To keep it in the simplest terms possible, if someone is part of a hustling team taking off casinos (which is dangerous and one can go to prison for doing so, what do you think would happen to him if this moron did a YouTube video of what he and his team were doing?

We are talking about two different worlds here and two different mind sets. It is not the same. On a different thread, I discussed a play about using Big Player location in a casino. The reason I discussed it is because it can’t be used that way anymore. But what if one of the team members put that play on YouTube while the team was using it? Do you think he would be smart to do so? Do you think he might have problems with the other team members if he did that? What possible reason could anyone have for doing so?

How about the Big Player Count play that requires the hustlers load up the shoe by mucking in cards. Would anyone in his right mind put that on YouTube while the team was using it? Do you think the guys doing this would like to see that on You Tube? Doing so would be beyond moronic. It is not fun and games at this level. People have been killed leaking what they are doing to the wrong people.

Bottom line is top hustlers don’t do that. It is just that simple and as close to an absolute concept as anything can be. If someone disagrees with that, or doesn’t understand that, then they have not “been there” on any meaningful level or have not “been there” at all.

Respectfully, they just don’t know.
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 23, 2012 08:10PM)
Arnold, although the semantics were irrelevant to begin with, the common terms "casino cheat" and "casino robber" negate your statements.

I couldn't possibly agree more with Cagliostro.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 23, 2012 08:15PM)
Thus, if I understand you well, when I get the pot because I stacked the cards or dealt a second I'm not a cheat because I'm not part of a professional crew or because the methods are well known?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 23, 2012 09:18PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 21:15, AMcD wrote:
Thus, if I understand you well, when I get the pot because I stacked the cards or dealt a second I'm not a cheat because I'm not part of a professional crew or because the methods are well known?
[/quote]
Im flabbergasted . If that is all you got out of my two posts above, then I respectfully suggest you don't understand what I was saying or the concepts conveyed. Quite frankly, that is your loss, not mine.
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 23, 2012 09:59PM)
Arnold, what does this have to do with anything?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 24, 2012 05:07AM)
I resign.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 24, 2012 12:09PM)
I should imagine not getting caught is a pretty good skill to perfect isn't it?
Message: Posted by: splice (Jan 24, 2012 12:45PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-23 20:57, Cagliostro wrote:
With respect, I do not get your thinking on this at all. It is an academic discussion not based upon the real world of hustling.

[/quote]

Why would you expect anything else? I never got the feeling that Arnold was a serious hustler.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 24, 2012 01:50PM)
Did I ever say I was a hustler? Now, if you want to play some cards with me/us, just come with your bankroll. I bet you we'll have some fun.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2012 06:23PM)
If ever they catch you cheating, you can try telling them, that you are not a serious hustler, but I have a feeling, they will not agree with magic Café splice. :)



As for “Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period. I would have to respectfully suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to.

The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. What they do and how they do it may be considerably different from what you think and may exceed your knowledge base. It is hard to convey in words how completely moronic it would be for them to demonstrate what they do or how they do it, in addition to being an incredible waste of time. These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off.”

May I ask how do you know they were professional cheats and good cheats if they DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 24, 2012 07:36PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-24 19:23, tommy wrote:

May I ask how do you know they were professional cheats and good cheats if they DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever?
[/quote]
I imagine your comment is meant to be facetious or ludicrous and not asked in a serious vein. However, just to clarify further, obviously they associate with other hustlers who have proven themselves to be “capable” and exchange ideas only with those people.

The comment quoted obviously implies they don’t demonstrate to the public, on YouTube, to demonstrators, etc. If they are active hustlers, they cannot afford to let others outside of their circle of intimates know that they have any knowledge of hustling or cheating techniques or that they are proficient at same.

However I'm sure you are a real sharp guy and have figured that out for yourself already.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 24, 2012 08:03PM)
I imagine your comments are meant to imply that you must be one of those professional cheats and good cheats. Who are quite as rare as The Martians in the real world but often turn up here at the Magic Café for some strange reason. :)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 24, 2012 09:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-24 21:03, tommy wrote:
I imagine your comments are meant to imply that you must be one of those professional cheats and good cheats. Who are quite as rare as The Martians in the real world but often turn up here at the Magic Café for some strange reason. :)
[/quote]
I’m not implying anything. It is up to the reader to come to his own conclusions based upon what I write.

The perceptive reader will engage in productive conversation, the dunce will not.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2012 12:53AM)
It seems to me you have put yourself in a bit of a dilemma there;

If you said anything constructive here, then wouldn't the best real time card and dice men you have known in your lifetime consider you to be totally insane?

:)
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 25, 2012 11:43AM)
If you will note, I write about things that happened in the past and can no longer be used and not about the current methods being employed today. The philosophy remains the same, mention no names nor do I expose current methods. I have nothing to defend or prove to anyone.

As I said, the perceptive reader will engage in constructive conversation, the dunce will not but instead attempt to show his “cleverness” even though he has never been there and possesses only theoretical knowledge.

Unfortunately I cannot help you with your quest for Martians. You might want to consult with a qualified professional for help in that regard.

Do you have anything worthwhile to say or is this the level of discussion you are limited to?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 25, 2012 12:07PM)
"If you will note, I write about things that happened in the past and can no longer be used and not about the current methods being employed today. The philosophy remains the same, mention no names nor do I expose current methods. I have nothing to defend or prove to anyone."

The problem with that is that it results in anything you say being of no use at all to anyone here.

Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If terrific denunciation of erstwhile associates, and a diatribe on the awful consequences of gambling are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table.
Message: Posted by: jfquackenbush (Jan 25, 2012 12:17PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 13:07, tommy wrote:
Self-styled "ex-professionals" have regaled the public with astounding disclosures of their former wiles and wickedness, and have proven a wonderful knowledge of the subject by exhuming some antiquated moss-covered ruses as well known as nursery rhymes, and even these extraordinary revelations are calmly dismissed with the assertion that this or that artifice is employed; in nowise attempting to explain the process or give the detail of the action mentioned. If terrific denunciation of erstwhile associates, and a diatribe on the awful consequences of gambling are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table.
[/quote]
Ha!
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 25, 2012 12:24PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 13:07, tommy wrote:
"If you will note, I write about things that happened in the past and can no longer be used and not about the current methods being
The problem with that is that it results in anything you say being of no use at all to anyone here. [/quote]
Only for those who are perceptive enough to recognize the benefits of what I write about. However, I will admit that for fools, half-smarts or those with an agenda to prove how clever they are, it will be of no benefit.

However, there are some perceptive people on this board who do benefit and my posts are written primarily for them.

I note that you quote Erdnase in you post above, even though for professional hustlers Erdnase went out with high button shoes 90 or so years ago. Only some magicians and demonstrators use the moves in that book nowadays or quote it as gospel.

You are tipping your hole card here.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jan 25, 2012 02:50PM)
@Tommy I definitely agree with you. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

@AMcD I agree with you as well.

@ Readers. Don't get me wrong and think that I think that Cagliostro is totally wrong in what he's saying because I'm agreeing with Tommy and AMcD, that is not true. Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread.

Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep. The guys that he probably hustled with if they're not already dead, don't even get on the internet, and those that do eyesight is not all that great or is not computer savvy, so since they are set in their ways, no other way is right but theirs, and TO ME this is what Tommy is trying to explain of which I agree with him on. Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers).

What Gagliostro did or what his crew did worked because it pertained to a particular game that he/they were trying to beat, either it was simple or intricate, it doesn't matter as long as it got the money. What you have to do is the same thing, direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is.

This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in. This is why Cagliostro stated that some hustler's only did about 2 or 3 great moves because that's all they needed in order to get the money for the particular games that their culture played.

Each culture have games that's peculiar only to them, in other words, what's the use in me learning how to cheat at Euchre (a game that I have never played) when my culture game is Georgia Skin; a game that you might not have ever heard of or played. Note: This is why you don't see a cheating technique or combination for this game in the “Side Strippers or Humps” section of both Blue Book catalogs because the whites just don't play our games.

While I'm on the subject of games.

[quote]

Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period.

[/quote]

So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos.

[quote]

I would … suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to.

The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off.

[/quote]

Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole *** book.

Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing.

If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on.

I mean no disrespect to whom this may concern but I have over a 100 cheating gambling books on my shelf and none of them, I REPEAT, NOT ONE OF THEM was written by a black man (a tipper); so if we didn't do the tipping who did?

Bottom Line: Like I previously stated in a thread a long time ago we all long to admired in some kind of way for our skills and achievements in what we did in life and this is why we're here at the Gambling Spot. You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on.

Singing An Old Commercial Jingle

I guess, I'm a tipper, you're a tipper, they're a tipper, … wouldn't y'all like to be a tipper too.

Respectfully

Doc
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 25, 2012 07:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-25 15:50, Unknown419 wrote:
Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread. [/quote]
No disagreement here. Casinos, country clubs, private games with well-heeled business people and casino card rooms is what I know. That is all I have to know. I don’t know about street hustling and am very thankful I don’t have to.

When Willy Sutton, the notorious bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks he said, “Because that is where the money is.” Same applies to casinos, country clubs and well-heeled players.

[quote]Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep.[/quote]
It was all very secret when I first started out and I learned directly from Vegas hustlers. In those days you had to keep your mouth shut and to be in with other hustlers you had to prove yourself in action. Talking about what you could do was BS. You had to be there doing it or you were just another sucker who said he knew a few things.

Nowadays it is not really any different. It is still done that way. The best and newest stuff is still circulated from hustler to hustler, not on YouTube or DVDs.

[quote]Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers). [/quote]
Are you two guys trying to play collusion against me? LOL

[quote]…direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is.[/quote]
No argument here.

[quote]This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in.[/quote]
We agree again and that was stated in my first post on this thread.

[quote]So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos.[/quote]
No, not at all. Giorgio was a pro hustler in his younger days and I respect him and his ability. However, he tipped some things when he became a magician and entertainer to Vernon and Miller but he was careful as to what he tipped. He also stated that he would not tip things that would hurt hustlers that he knew who were still active. I will say that his muck moves in general are somewhat dated and would not fly in a casino environment. Different type muck moves are used nowadays.

The latest stuff is not being tipped to magicians and demonstrators. It is being used. When it finally gets in books, on YouTube or on expose DVDs, it is pretty after the fact and the hustlers (casino) have moved on to something else or changed the workings significantly.

[quote]Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole *** book.

Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing.

If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on.[/quote]

Erdnase is questionable and severely dated. He may have been a part time hustler/magician/demonstrator and was hyped by Vernon which made him popular among hobbyist and magicians. I have know some incredibley capable hustlers who never even heard of Erdnase.

Scarne was not a hustler,he was a magician. Vernon was not a hustler, he was a magician. Neither could get the money. Kennedy and his center deal is a joke in my opinion and Walter Scott was made famous by Vernon and was a small timer if he hustled at all. Since you mentioned Giorgio, he is of the same opinion as I just stated above regarding Scarne, Erdnase, Scott, Kennedy,the Center Deal, etc. Not that I am relying on him to back me up, I am just mentioning this because you mentioned Giorgio.

We are not talking about magic books or DVD exposes here. The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off and what they do and how they do may not be in your books. You are talking about moves here . There is so much more to this than the seconds, bottoms and run-up, etc. I’m not saying those things can’t be used at the right time and in the right spot, but there is so much more to this that that. I suggest the really big, big scores that run into the hundreds of thousands actually use little or no moves or maybe an occasional move.

[quote]Bottom Line: …You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on.[/quote]
I think we are pretty much in agreement on most of this, with perhaps minor disagreement in some areas.

Fact is, you and I live in different worlds.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jan 26, 2012 01:45AM)
[quote]

Fact is, you and I live in different worlds.
[/quote]

You explained Giorgio's position of which I understand and yes we live in different worlds and neither is better nor less than the other, we both got he money and that was our job.

Take care and may the Lord bless you and your family.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 26, 2012 12:00PM)
Since commentaries on Tony Giorgio have been mentioned above and he and writings are of interest to magicians and gambling move hobbyists, I am going to post a review of [b]The Ultimate Work[/b] I wrote some time back for another purpose. Since I have not seen any detailed commentaries on this DVD and since it appears applicable to this thread, possibly this review might be of passing interest to a few of the members.

[quote]Tony Giorgio’s DVD entitled, [b]The Ultimate Work[/b] purports to demonstrate the “real work” on the subject of hand mucking, as opposed to the magician’s and expose demonstrator’s renditions of same. The designation of “Ultimate Work” might seem a bit pretentious, but what the heck that’s show biz.

I have written favorably about Giorgio’s ability and knowledge in the past and although I don’t know him personally, there is no doubt that he “walked the talk” in his earlier days. His commentary and previous writing on the subject quite definitely convey that fact. The mucks he describes were evidently used by him under fire at some point in his life and more importantly, his philosophy and understanding of the subject goes beyond what most magicians and expose artists usually convey or understand.

The DVD is not meant to be a comprehensive treatise on mucking and there are many “real work” mucks and mucking techniques that are not part of this DVD. The moves Giorgio demonstrates are those that Giorgio evidently developed and used many years ago and in a number of instances have been replaced by more modern and better methods, especially in the area of casino hand mucking. Giorgio’s work in this DVD is almost exclusively aimed at mucking in private games and is really not applicable for casino use. Then again, in all fairness, the best casino mucks for Blackjack and Baccarat, as well as for Texas Hold’em dealt in casino card rooms, have not been exposed by anyone in books or on DVDs – at least not yet. Such techniques and methods are still fairly unknown at this point in time.

What Giorgio does on the DVD is take a standard move (like the machine break off), and then show all the variations of that move that he has developed and used in the past. Additionally, he demonstrates a multitude of ways to palm cards prior to capping the deck. These palming moves for capping the deck are in part, but not entirely, variations of the basic move described by Erdnase under [i]Skinning the Hand[/i] in [b]The Expert at the Card Table[/b]. His demonstration of actually capping the deck itself, after palming, offers a good lesson for the interested viewer as Giorgio starts with a chip on top of the tabled pack. Placing a chip on the top of the deck is a relatively standard way of “protecting the deck” and Giorgio caps two cards so he can burn the top card before dealing the draw. (Capping the deck applies primarily to the game of Draw Poker and Low Ball Draw Poker in this DVD presentation, but is applicable to other card games as well as different variations of poker.)

Additionally, some of his techniques were designed for poker games and conditions that existed in the past and not for the modern professional full game poker environment of today where the players are sitting arm to arm. His Blackjack muck is more of an oddity (which he admits would never fly under today’s conditions), and his Gin Rummy moves, while interesting and still workable, do not represent the latest methods currently in use. His capping the deck moves are designed more for a shorthanded poker games as the muck techniques demonstrated would tend to “leak” under modern full table conditions. A hustler would definitely have to pick his spots in such instances. (Then again, a hustler always has to pick his spots and gear his moves to the game conditions encountered.)

The philosophy Giorgio conveys is valuable and beneficial to those who have a real interest in the subject, keeping in mind these moves were used a great many years ago. This doesn’t detract from their value and a serious student will definitely benefit from Giorgio’s commentary, demonstrations and perspective. The moves are applicable today in many [i]private[/i] games for those who have the desire, audacity and courage to muck under fire.

Giorgio appears to be in his mid 80s and therefore the pace of the two DVDs is rather slow in comparison to the Forte, Piacente and Malek videos/DVDs. However, keep in mind these are teaching and not demonstration DVDs. Giorgio goes over each move 4 or 5 times, and for some this might prove to be tiresome, but it eliminates the necessity of rewinding the DVD over and over again. For serious students looking to master these moves, this is an advantage.

All in all, I recommend this DVD and I think some members of this site will benefit from purchasing and learning from an old timer who really has been there. (An experienced or top notch hand mucker who works under fire, especially a casino mucker, might find the DVD of passing interest, but that’s all. However, many serious viewers, especially magicians, should find the information to be of considerable benefit.

For me, it was a wonderful trip back to a previous era and the world of the old time hustler, and we all benefit by having someone like Giorgio convey this type information while he is still able to do so.

For those who are looking for flashy, whiz bang, razzmatazz BS demo work, this is not the DVD to buy. But for someone who is serious about learning from an old timer who knows what he is talking about, and perhaps picking up a few pointers along the way, I recommend [b]The Ultimate Work[/b].[/quote]
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 26, 2012 01:45PM)
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 26, 2012 05:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?
[/quote]
I don’t know the reason for your question, but that is all pretty basic stuff. Let me very briefly give you a hint to my progression on this “gambling” type mastery. I am not going to boast nor am I going to tip anything good, but I know some are curious. So take the following for what it is worth, if anything.

When I was 10 – 11 years old, I was an amateur magician and would occasionally go to downtown NY and visit Max Holden’s and Lou Tannen’s Magic shops on 42nd street off Broadway. (I’m from the Bronx originally so it was about a 45 minute subway ride to Manhattan.) One day at Tannen’s, when I was 13 years old, I saw a copy of the Expert at the Card Table on the store’s book shelf and took it home. Once I started to read it that was the end of magic for me. I was enchanted with all the moves in the card cheating section and by 14 years of age, had learned and mastered all the run-ups, bottom deal, holding out, hops, cull shuffles, skinning the hand, etc., in Erdnase because at that time, I thought Erdnase was the be all, end all when it came to gambling moves. Since I was studying classical piano and practicing for 2-3 hours a day on the Steinway, all these gambling moves came very easily. It was actually a piece of cake compared to classical piano. Once I got the bug, I could not stop practicing this stuff, much to the chagrin of my parents who for some strange reason thought learning classical piano was more important that learning how to deal base.

Then I got exposed to some information (which I am not going to get into) at 14 years old, that gave me a very good hint as to how the big money hustlers were making the big money plays, and it was not Erdnase. Now I was really hooked. There were no videos or DVDs in those days, most magicians knew nothing about gambling moves, this all was very hush-hush, so I had to hunt and scrounge to pick up bits and pieces wherever I could locate them over the next several years. Scarne on Cards, Scarne on Dice, How to Control Fair Dice, MacDougall’s Card Mastery, Gamblers Don’t Gamble and Danger in the Cards, Sharps and Flats, Buckley’s Card Control, Expert Card Technique, Eddie McQuire’s Walter Scott manuscript, Merlin’s…and a Pack of Cards and Hugard’s More Card Manipulation Vol. 2 (for the riffle stack and riffle stack double duke), The Sealed Book, The Open Book, Moss’ Card Cheats – How They Operate, all of Vernon’s books, plus the KC Card Company’s catalog. Some of these books were devoted exclusively to gambling and cheating, others just had an occasional move here and there.

I was addicted, became a “move” junky and mastered just about every move you can think of, numerous variations therein and developed quite a few original concepts. By the time I was 17 years old, I was very skillful and extremely accomplished (but not “capable”) with dice and cards. Because of this (and because I was from the Bronx), I thought I was King Kong and I really knew what this was all about. Boy was I wrong. I was just a glorified wise-ass NY half-smart who had mastered a lot of moves, had a lot of knowledge ABOUT cheating and though I was the be all, end all when it came to card and dice hstling. I was in for some serious surprises.

I went into the Marine Corps shortly thereafter so as not to be drafted in the Army, and while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station, El Toro at Santa Ana, CA, I used to travel to Gardena and sneak into the card rooms there (I was not 21 yet). While playing there I figured out two moves to beat both the Draw poker game and also the Low Ball draw game. One was completely original and I have never had anyone pick up on it or suspect it, nor have anyone ever written about it or exposed it. I subsequently found out the Low Ball move was being used by other hustlers in the big games played by a few of the big name poker names of today.

After being discharged from the Marine Corps at 21 years of age, I moved to Las Vegas and got involved with gambling. I am not going to tell you how it happened, but got duked into some of the top Vegas active professional hustlers. Because I took my Bronx heritage with me, “never tip, never rat out anyone, never expose anything to chumps or half-smarts, never boast about your ability, always play the IG,” I got to learn about things I never dreamed of and which I am not going to go into. That is where I jumped from being proficient to capable.

The way it worked was the good stuff that was currently being used was passed on by direct contact on a need to know basis to those who were active in hustling. Nobody tipped the current gaffs because it was their livelihood and to expose what they were doing to the non-hustlers would be to make the gaff useless and dangerous. On a couple of occasions, people got killed for saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. So regardless what anyone on this board thinks, it is still done that way today with the new, current stuff that is being used. It is not in books or on DVDs and won’t be until it gets played out and the hustlers have gone on to something else.

By the way AMcD, I hope my explanation was not too brief and I answered your question sufficiently.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Jan 26, 2012 06:09PM)
Hahaha, nicely put Cagliostro.

Let me tell you something though.

I want you to know I have big respect for you. First, because you're obviously older than I am and I'm the kind of person taking care about such things. Second, you always took the time to answer my questions with politeness, accuracy and great style. Last point, you showed proficiency in fields I am very poorly educated, like casinos. I'd like to add I really appreciate true old timers sharing their experience, it's rather uncommon.

Thus, I didn't want to show you disrespect with my question and I hope you'll trust me on that.

Simply put, I read your review above and there's something I hate a lot: people criticizing sleight of hands when they have no skills themselves (and there are very common among magicians and forum members!). I wasn't really (in my mind) categorizing you in that black flock, because according to what I read from you it looked obvious you knew your business. But we never know, hence my question.

Now I have my answer, thanks for that.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 26, 2012 07:01PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 19:09, AMcD wrote:
...you always took the time to answer my questions with politeness, accuracy and great style.[/quote]
Thanks for the nice complement. I see we finally agree 100% on something. LOL
Message: Posted by: NFS (Jan 26, 2012 08:43PM)
That was beautiful, Cagliostro. A great read with a cliffhanger at every paragraph. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Jan 27, 2012 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 18:29, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?
[/quote]
I don’t know the reason for your question, but that is all pretty basic stuff. Let me very briefly give you a hint to my progression on this “gambling” type mastery. I am not going to boast nor am I going to tip anything good, but I know some are curious. So take the following for what it is worth, if anything.

When I was 10 – 11 years old, I was an amateur magician and would occasionally go to downtown NY and visit Max Holden’s and Lou Tannen’s Magic shops on 42nd street off Broadway. (I’m from the Bronx originally so it was about a 45 minute subway ride to Manhattan.) One day at Tannen’s, when I was 13 years old, I saw a copy of the Expert at the Card Table on the store’s book shelf and took it home. Once I started to read it that was the end of magic for me. I was enchanted with all the moves in the card cheating section and by 14 years of age, had learned and mastered all the run-ups, bottom deal, holding out, hops, cull shuffles, skinning the hand, etc., in Erdnase because at that time, I thought Erdnase was the be all, end all when it came to gambling moves. Since I was studying classical piano and practicing for 2-3 hours a day on the Steinway, all these gambling moves came very easily. It was actually a piece of cake compared to classical piano. Once I got the bug, I could not stop practicing this stuff, much to the chagrin of my parents who for some strange reason thought learning classical piano was more important that learning how to deal base.

Then I got exposed to some information (which I am not going to get into) at 14 years old, that gave me a very good hint as to how the big money hustlers were making the big money plays, and it was not Erdnase. Now I was really hooked. There were no videos or DVDs in those days, most magicians knew nothing about gambling moves, this all was very hush-hush, so I had to hunt and scrounge to pick up bits and pieces wherever I could locate them over the next several years. Scarne on Cards, Scarne on Dice, How to Control Fair Dice, MacDougall’s Card Mastery, Gamblers Don’t Gamble and Danger in the Cards, Sharps and Flats, Buckley’s Card Control, Expert Card Technique, Eddie McQuire’s Walter Scott manuscript, Merlin’s…and a Pack of Cards and Hugard’s More Card Manipulation Vol. 2 (for the riffle stack and riffle stack double duke), The Sealed Book, The Open Book, Moss’ Card Cheats – How They Operate, all of Vernon’s books, plus the KC Card Company’s catalog. Some of these books were devoted exclusively to gambling and cheating, others just had an occasional move here and there.

I was addicted, became a “move” junky and mastered just about every move you can think of, numerous variations therein and developed quite a few original concepts. By the time I was 17 years old, I was very skillful and extremely accomplished (but not “capable”) with dice and cards. Because of this (and because I was from the Bronx), I thought I was King Kong and I really knew what this was all about. Boy was I wrong. I was just a glorified wise-ass NY half-smart who had mastered a lot of moves, had a lot of knowledge ABOUT cheating and though I was the be all, end all when it came to card and dice hstling. I was in for some serious surprises.

I went into the Marine Corps shortly thereafter so as not to be drafted in the Army, and while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station, El Toro at Santa Ana, CA, I used to travel to Gardena and sneak into the card rooms there (I was not 21 yet). While playing there I figured out two moves to beat both the Draw poker game and also the Low Ball draw game. One was completely original and I have never had anyone pick up on it or suspect it, nor have anyone ever written about it or exposed it. I subsequently found out the Low Ball move was being used by other hustlers in the big games played by a few of the big name poker names of today.

After being discharged from the Marine Corps at 21 years of age, I moved to Las Vegas and got involved with gambling. I am not going to tell you how it happened, but got duked into some of the top Vegas active professional hustlers. Because I took my Bronx heritage with me, “never tip, never rat out anyone, never expose anything to chumps or half-smarts, never boast about your ability, always play the IG,” I got to learn about things I never dreamed of and which I am not going to go into. That is where I jumped from being proficient to capable.

The way it worked was the good stuff that was currently being used was passed on by direct contact on a need to know basis to those who were active in hustling. Nobody tipped the current gaffs because it was their livelihood and to expose what they were doing to the non-hustlers would be to make the gaff useless and dangerous. On a couple of occasions, people got killed for saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. So regardless what anyone on this board thinks, it is still done that way today with the new, current stuff that is being used. It is not in books or on DVDs and won’t be until it gets played out and the hustlers have gone on to something else.

By the way AMcD, I hope my explanation was not too brief and I answered your question sufficiently.
[/quote]

This is basically how I started out as well except that I'm not from the Bronx, I'm from Harlem and it took me about 30 minutes on the train to get to Tannen's which was on 48th street on the top floor at the time I went in the 70's. Yes I purchased all the exact same books that Caglistro purchased and still have them 'til this day. I thought that I was great until I started studying with the magicians down at Reuben's. My teachers were Frank Garcia, Gene Maze, Ken Krenzel, Doug Edwards, Herb Zarrow, Mark Mitton, Harry Lorayne, Tony Moley, Wesley James, Sal Piacente (we both were amatuer's then) and the list goes on and on. I still thought that I was great until I went on the road and boy oh boy did I get a rude awakening about how good I really was. I had to re-learn basically every thing all over again, I had to dismiss 99% of every thing that the magicians told and taught us in their books (that's why I started this site so no one will get tricked like I was) and then I had to adjust the moves to the card table.

I learned the Whip Shot and Pad Roll from a Spanish guy from Rochester NY when I was up there with the Turk; this is where I first met Joe Phafone (not sure of this spelling) an up and coming cheat in the early 90's. I also learned an unusual shot from a friend of mine who was a billionaire from St. Maarten (Chapelton) who is now diseased and the Greek Shot later on in Dallas Texas right along with the Spin Shot.

So since Cagliostro's story is exactly like mine except for a few things here and there, I have to believe what he's saying is true.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: kcg5 (Jan 31, 2012 02:01PM)
So, you knew a dice cheat who had a billion dollars? Did he want to sell you any bridges?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jan 31, 2012 04:26PM)
[quote]On 2012-01-27 13:29, Unknown419 wrote:
I still thought that I was great until I went on the road and boy oh boy did I get a rude awakening about how good I really was. I had to re-learn basically every thing all over again, I had to dismiss 99% of every thing that the magicians told and taught us in their books (that's why I started this site so no one will get tricked like I was) and then I had to adjust the moves to the card table.[/quote]
That is a good point. Probably 99% of the people on this forum are magicians, gambling move hobbyists, demonstrators, dilettantes and so on with no direct experience or desire to use any of the “gambling type” moves they have learned, practiced and mastered in a gambling game. Interestingly, it is usually either directly or indirectly assumptive on their part that these moves they learned are practical and actually work in the real world and further, if they really wanted to go for the money they could do so with what they have. It is also somewhat assumptive that the more moves and variations one has mastered, the more dangerous he would be in a game format. In my opinion, both those assumptions are grossly incorrect.

I still remember when I was a teenager practicing these moves for hours in front of a three-way mirror (no video cameras in those days), checking each move from every angle, reveling in the minute briefs on my double-t’s (strike seconds), the hops (shifts), the mucks, pikes (peeks) and so on. But no matter how skillful I got, I did not understand at the time that what I was acquiring was largely theoretical and to some degree a make-believe and often impractical accomplishment. Here is why:

Let’s assume you want to use your perfect 1/8 inch brief “Two” deal (second deal) in a game for example. When practicing at home you are warmed up and doing the same move over and over again. The deck is usually new so you can have a minute brief, you are under no pressure and if you flub the move, so what. Just go back and do it again. However, what you are practicing under these conditions is not what you will encounter in a game.

Now let’s assume an eight handed round game where all the players get to shuffle and deal. First of all, you are not warmed up when it is your turn to deal. It may be 15 minutes or more before the deal comes around to you and you are picking up the deck cold. You can’t practice the move a couple of times before you use it. You have to use it then and there as needed. The cards may be getting a little worn, maybe some of them are getting bent, perhaps sticky, there may be some people milling around the game, some spectators may be standing up looking down at the game, perhaps even walking behind you. In order to deal over the chips or to reach the other players, either on the other side of the table or to you right or left, you may have to extend your arms and point your hands to different players on the game as you go around the table, so now your hands may not be in the perfect position to hit your “Two” the way you practiced. Coupled with that you are nowhere as calm as you were on the kitchen table. In fact, as a newbie hustler you are probably extremely nervous which will affect or hinder your execution of the move to one degree or another, perhaps greatly. The bottom line is you are going to have to make adjustments and changes to your beautiful “Two” deal because it is not practical under the conditions you are encountering.

What you thought was a great Two deal is in need of some adjustment, maybe major adjustments. And the only way to know what to change and how to change it is to use it “under fire.” You might have to adjust it several times over a period of time before it gets workable to your satisfaction. Dealing around the table in the real world where you could get “nailed” is a lot different than dealing face down on a practice pad at home. The above discussion assumes the technique in question is even valid to begin with which in many cases it is not. Many “gambling” techniques may be great for demonstration purposes, but ridiculous when used in a gaming scenario.

Additionally, now you have to clock the players when dealing, you have to incorporate timing and grift sense; you have to be able to “work” under conditions you never anticipated in your home practice sessions. And this is just one small example using a basic second deal. How about the accompanying “other” things that have to be used in conjunction to make your second deal work to get the money (peeking, carrying a slug, using paper and so on.) In a game, no move is done in a vacuum as in a demonstration. Many other factors have to be incorporated to get the cash. You might even find that all the fancy variations you mastered are completely useless under these conditions.

Further, if I had a choice of working with someone with a “mediocre” second deal with a half inch brief who had repeatedly proved himself and gotten the money under fire as opposed to someone with a magnificent second deal with numerous impeccable variations who had never tried it in a game, I would unhesitatingly choose the guy with the “mediocre” second. And this is just a very simple example using a second deal.

You can’t learn or acquire this ability from books, DVDs, other magicians, demonstrators or the world’s greatest gambling guru. You can only learn this aspect of moving by doing it under fire. And if you have never tried to do it under fire against reasonably astute players, you will probably have no idea of what I am talking about or disagree without knowing.

We are not talking about playing on the square and then pulling a second when no one is looking to test your nerve. That is just fooling yourself because you are not using the second in that instance to get the money, you are just “sneaking” a second in vacuum with no valid objective.

For most hobbyists on this board, the situations described above will not be a problem for them as they will never try to go for the money in a worthwhile game. One of the benefits hobbyists derive from learning these moves is to show, discuss and vicariously experience the world of “hustling.” Additionally, it is easier, safer and a lot more fun to posture with theoretical knowledge, expertise and ability on BBs, in front of other magicians, hobbyists and the like then to move in a game and I have no problem with that. However, when posturing against someone who has “been there,” it becomes obvious very quickly how valid such pretending is.

Generally speaking, those that posture have usually not “been there” or are not currently active. Those that have been there really have no "rational" reason to posture and should not if they are currently active at hustling unless they want their boasting to possibly come back someday and bite them when they least expect it.

Bottom line for those who are looking to use these moves for their intended purpose, be aware what you practiced at home and what you think works will probably be different from what you can actually use in a game until the necessary experience is acquired.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jan 31, 2012 10:41PM)
Now we can assume its an eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle but if so, what I would ask in the first the place is, what would be the point of dealing seconds at all? Are we to assume the cards in the game in question are marked in the first place? If we are to assume the cards in the game in question are marked then wouldn't that info alone give one enough advantage to get the money without having to resort to second dealing as well? Personally I have always assumed that second dealing was a move used more in games like Black Jack rather than poker. Haven't seen private 21 games for years but Pontoon used to popular here and so too Shoot, which are 21 games. In those the players would take turns in being the banker.
Moreover I have not seen a eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle deal in a very long time. Poker in my experience has always been a game where dealers are employed to deal. In my neck of the woods poker has never been a game, it's always been a business. The business of charging players an hourly fee or taking a rake, the business of earning money by dealing by way of tips and so on.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 1, 2012 09:06PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-31 23:41, tommy wrote:
Now we can assume its an eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle but if so, what I would ask in the first the place is, what would be the point of dealing seconds at all? Are we to assume the cards in the game in question are marked in the first place? If we are to assume the cards in the game in question are marked then wouldn't that info alone give one enough advantage to get the money without having to resort to second dealing as well? [/quote]
I don’t mean to be impolite but perhaps you did not understand what the post was conveying. Obviously the second deal was used as an EXAMPLE because most all on this board are acquainted with the move, although there are a number of ways it can be used in a round game like Draw and Hold’em which you should be aware of. It is not just used with marked cards but with stacks, slugs, flashes and peeks.

Usage of a second deal is basic stuff but the post was meant to explain the PROCESS in the DEVELOPMENT of a move in live play, not the situations of HOW it can be used. That is a different subject and not relevant to the information the post was conveying. We could have used almost any move as an example. Did you not understand that?

[quote]Moreover I have not seen a eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle deal in a very long time. Poker in my experience has always been a game where dealers are employed to deal. In my neck of the woods poker has never been a game, it's always been a business. The business of charging players an hourly fee or taking a rake, the business of earning money by dealing by way of tips and so on.[/quote]
You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

However, once again that is irrelevant as we were conveying the process of developing a move in live play.

You seem to continually miss the ESSENSE of the PRINCIPLES and CONCEPTS being discussed on my posts and concentrate only on off the wall minutia and inconsequential distractions.

I have only read a few of your posts as they pertain to the concepts I discuss, ideas that are meant to benefit the members. Once again, I don’t mean to be impolite but do you have any idea as to what hustling is all about and what I am conveying in my posts? So far, you have never said anything that demonstrates you do.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Feb 2, 2012 05:54AM)
Cagliostro,

Don't forget tommy is in UK, games are not the same, habits are not the same, etc. Personally, all the games above one grand buy-in that I've seen there were hired dealers. Even in our amateur leagues we have dealers at the final tables. In the private games I play (low stakes, like from $75 to $200) it's not uncommon to have someone as permanent dealer too.

Second deal is great. Stacking is even superior. In my games, we have plastic cards, cut cards and 3 people involved for every round (unless there's a permanent dealer, of course). Forget about passes, bottom deal, hops, etc. Collusion, peeking, second deal... Works fine.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 2, 2012 04:36PM)
Just saying here.

In my games I use a dealer in cash games because there is a rake. In tounrament format everyone deals. Once in a while someone will deal the final table. Usually not.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 2, 2012 06:50PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-02 06:54, AMcD wrote:
Cagliostro,

Don't forget tommy is in UK, games are not the same, habits are not the same, etc...
In my games, we have plastic cards, cut cards and 3 people involved for every round (unless there's a permanent dealer, of course). Forget about passes, bottom deal, hops, etc. Collusion, peeking, second deal... Works fine.
[/quote]
I agree. Poker procedural changes and game formats have changed significantly over the last several years and many methods that were viable in the past are now obsolete in many areas, although the game is still quite vulnerable to those that are determined to get an advantage. I'm sure we will see many more changes in the future.

We now have automatic shuffle machines, center dealers and although they are making inroads slowly, the Poker Pro tables which eliminate the center dealer entirely. Players still like to hold the cards and shuffle the chips while playing, but as the younger generation which was weaned on electronic devices becomes of playing age, who knows how the games will evolve in the future.

Casinos now have electronic craps, roulette, blackjack and poker. Although I have not seen any higher stake games in electronic format, perhaps it is just a matter of time. The hustlers of the future may be the hackers, not the sleight of handers.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 3, 2012 06:33PM)
[quote]

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

[/quote]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 3, 2012 10:19PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-03 19:33, tommy wrote:
[quote]

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

[/quote]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
[/quote]
Nothing extraordinary here, just a simple statement of fact.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 4, 2012 01:39PM)
If you say so. What is the reason for them not having a dealer, Lady Fingers will deal anywhere?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 4, 2012 02:33PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-04 14:39, tommy wrote:
If you say so. What is the reason for them not having a dealer, Lady Fingers will deal anywhere?
[/quote]
Okay, good question.

As time goes on, more and more private games (non-card room, non-rake games) are starting to use private hired dealers to deal their game. Often two dealers are employed for this. These games are held in the homes of well-to-do players, are played among friends (professional people, business people and executives).

The reason that many of these private games still don’t used hired center dealers is it is a game among friends and because fear of the word getting out about their high stakes home game and the real possibility of getting robbed. Plus in those kinds of games, many people enjoy shuffling and dealing the cards themselves and feel they have no need for a professional center dealer. Also, sometimes it is not feasible. They may start a game amongst themselves after a round of round of golf at the country club.

I have been in quite a few of these private games and the setting, atmosphere and camaraderie is much more pleasant, enjoyable and non-professional than playing in card rooms for many people. Also, some of these people do not want everyone in their local area to know they play in high stake poker games, especially in their homes, as they feel their reputation may be somewhat tainted.

In these type games, you usually have to be invited to gain entry, known as being financially successful in the community, have a good reputation, successful business, doctor, lawyer, etc. To some of these people, playing poker in a public card room is somewhat distasteful. They are not snobs as such but may not be interested in playing with the general public. Let’s face it, you can run into anyone in a public card room, some of whom can be quite undesirable. Even though it is high stakes, to them their private game is just a friendly poker game among friends. Hiring a center dealer gives it that "professional" onus.

Regarding your Lady Fingers remark, after the word got out that "Shooter" was looking to compromise the game and let the Cincinatti Kid win by cheating, center dealers got a bad reputaion for a long time. Besides, that was many years ago and Lady Fingers now has a bad case of arthritis and can't deal anymore, although I hear her daughter deals even better than she and is a real whiz with the tickets.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 5, 2012 10:39AM)
Cagliostro is rght on about the reasons for not having a dealer at private games. Stakes get out, winners get out,losers get out. The name says it all "private games". They are just that, private. No ones business but the players. As I said earlier in this post if a dealer is involved all kind of info gets out. The first thing out of peoples mouth is, what kind of stakes do they play for if they have their own delaer? They must be big gamblers.

Simply put it is none of anyones business what stakes we play for or if we even play. Also a lot of things said and discussed at these games is among the players at the game, not for a dealer's ears.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 5, 2012 01:06PM)
:rolleyes:

Such is the nature of speakeasy's that I can't tell you where it is, but it's a fantastic little cosy venue that has hosted some of the biggest games in the UK over the last few decades and seen some of the biggest names grace its tables. It's a very friendly place, not in any way like some of the backroom venues you hear horror stories about, and if you ever are lucky enough to be offered an invite to this heart of England poker, snap it up. Top dealers, waitress service, good food and and so on. How much cash do you think the players for the High Stakes Cash Game bring here? ZERO!

Have your; professional people, business people and executives invited to gain entry, known as being financially successful in the community, have a good reputation, successful business, doctor, lawyer, etc ever heard of a little thing called a cheque?

Do you really think high stakes players turn up at the biggest private cash games in world with suitcases full of cash?



:)
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Feb 5, 2012 01:27PM)
Is this fantastic place far from me :P?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 5, 2012 01:28PM)
Where are you Arnold?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Feb 5, 2012 01:34PM)
Usually around Sussex...

Lemme guess... Are you a Villan?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 5, 2012 01:37PM)
Well a couple of hours away I guess.

Very good guess. In fact sometimes some the players are here.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Feb 5, 2012 01:43PM)
I deserve no credit, I've got a good IP analyzer...

Hey, this summer maybe, who knows? If you could setup a Chicago game for me... I really like this game but it's hard to find guys who knows the rules in UK :(.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 5, 2012 03:08PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-05 14:06, tommy wrote:
Have your; professional people, business people and executives invited to gain entry, known as being financially successful in the community, have a good reputation, successful business, doctor, lawyer, etc ever heard of a little thing called a cheque?[/quote]
Dumb question. What do you think?

[quote]Do you really think high stakes players turn up at the biggest private cash games in world with suitcases full of cash?[/quote]
Is that a rhetorical question or just another sarcastic and silly question?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 5, 2012 03:41PM)
I don't think how high stakes games are run, I know. I think you are a dreamer. Is that clear enough for you?
Message: Posted by: Unknown419 (Feb 5, 2012 03:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-01-31 15:01, kcg5 wrote:
So, you knew a dice cheat who had a billion dollars? Did he want to sell you any bridges?
[/quote]

Yes I did. You need to study how ALL the cocaine came into America in the 1980's especially when America was in on it. They tried to put the blame on Oliver North for doing so but he explains what really happened at his trial.

Bottom Line: You seen Scare Face? Do you remember the guy who had Scare Face killed? Well this is how high the position was that he held.

Memory Lane: I remember one day gambling at a gambling spot when my best friend who I taught how cheat came in with this medium height dark skinned guy and another guy who I learned later on to be his chauffeur. He stood around for a minute looking at every one gambling when all of a sudden my friend called me over to introduce me to him. As I went to shake his hand I saw that his nails were long and that he had gold all over his wrist, neck and fingers. If he wasn't rich he sure looked it and this was that expensive gold. He said "do you want to make some real money," I said "yeah." He said come with me. As we got in the back of his limo to go eat, he started talking about all of his gambling escapades and then he went on into talking about his illegal activities. I eventually said something regarding one of my idols at that time "John Gotti." He shrugged his head and in his island voice said, "Gotti ain't nothing but a worker." I said to myself this man has got to be crazy, Gotti is the man.

Years later when I found out who this man really was, what he was all about, what he did and his position with the Columbians, to him John Gotti was a worker. When someone brings something into town or your country and it's given to you to sell....you're worker.

This not Magic, this is real talk.

So kcg5 if you don't believe me or believe that he was a billionaire just go to St. Maarten or to Columbia and bad mouth this guy to the cartels and see if you make it back home alive.


Respectfully,

Doc
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 5, 2012 05:13PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-05 16:41, tommy wrote:
I don't think how high stakes games are run, I know. I think you are a dreamer. Is that clear enough for you?
[/quote]
You may possibly know how the games are run in a card room rake-game format. That is not rocket science and no doubt many poker dealers know how to do that. It is somewhat like working behind the counter in a retail store. However, I doubt you have played in any high stake games yourself. Dealing and/or supervising these games is not the same as playing in them.

It seems like you are very defensive, feel threatened by my posts and are continually struggling to discredit them and prove something about yourself. To paraphrase Shakespeare, “You protest too much.”

Talk about dreaming. Are you still looking for those Martians you mentioned previously on one of your posts?

You have not only tipped your hole card about yourself, you are now playing it face up.

Let me ask you, have you been potty trained yet?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 5, 2012 05:48PM)
Unlike you I can prove what I say. What you think does not matter a jot to me.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 5, 2012 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-05 18:48, tommy wrote:
Unlike you I can prove what I say. What you think does not matter a jot to me.
[/quote]
Gee, I am very disappointed to hear that as I so much wanted for us to be friends. You’re approval is very important to me and I think you are making a snap decision here.

But let me ask you, how long have you been dealing poker in the UK? Are the tips pretty good considering the economic downturn that has occurred?

Also, how good are you at dealing other games? For example, in addition to poker can you deal games like the Big Six Wheel or perhaps Chuck-a-Luck?

Just curious.

Oh, by the way. I am compiling a complete list of all the games I have played in over the last twenty years, both private and casino, including the location, date and time, game number where applicable, bankroll requirements, names and addresses of players (in private games), how much I won and very importantly player and casino references in this regard. As I said, I do want your approval and am happy to publish this information on a public forum for your edification.
Message: Posted by: Tony45 (Feb 6, 2012 03:51AM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-05 16:52, Unknown419 wrote:
[quote]
I eventually said something regarding one of my idols at that time "John Gotti." He shrugged his head and in his island voice said, "Gotti ain't nothing but a worker." I said to myself this man has got to be crazy, Gotti is the man.

Years later when I found out who this man really was, what he was all about, what he did and his position with the Columbians, to him John Gotti was a worker. When someone brings something into town or your country and it's given to you to sell....you're worker.

Respectfully,

Doc
[/quote]

The Columbians are a whole different ballgame entriely, their main business was junk and they were bringing in sick amounts of money and the cartels were like a second government. Hell, over there they might have been even more powerful than the real govt, lol. Of course they look down their noses at the wiseguys as a whole as their business made they wiseguys look small in comparison, so I could see how this guy could say that.
By the way, your idol was lucky he went away for life when he did, he stays on the street, hes dead within a few years, known fact. The guy was hated.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 6, 2012 09:22AM)
Me? I am just the pot washer! The bosses chair is over there with Mr Cagliostro in it. :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 6, 2012 11:38AM)
Do you think there is much money laundering going on by way of chip-dumping in casino poker cash games? Is there an advantage to being aware its going on if you are playing in the game where its happeming? To give us some perspective how much does a kilo cost in lets say New York? How would they go about dumping that amount, what size game and so on? Could one spot it if it was going on? I have never thought about it or been on the look out for it. I was just thinking there must some of it going on and if one can spot it then there must an advantage in knowing it at the table?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 6, 2012 06:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-06 12:38, tommy wrote:
Do you think there is much money laundering going on by way of chip-dumping in casino poker cash games? Is there an advantage to being aware its going on if you are playing in the game where its happeming? To give us some perspective how much does a kilo cost in lets say New York? How would they go about dumping that amount, what size game and so on? Could one spot it if it was going on? I have never thought about it or been on the look out for it. I was just thinking there must some of it going on and if one can spot it then there must an advantage in knowing it at the table?
[/quote]

What in the name of God are you talking about?

Money laundering in a cash game in a casino for drugs? WTF? You would have to have one heck of a huge game going on. With a huge buy in.

What would be the point? How could this possibly work?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 6, 2012 07:30PM)
What in the name of God are you talking about?

It would not have to be a large game at all. It would depend on how big a dealer you were and how much you needed to launder. Not all drug dealers are Pablo Escobar. Lets you that you sold a Kilo? What would that be, lets say 25 grand. Now you need to account for it if asked. So you give it to your pal and both play in the casino cash game for week if you like and your pal dumps to you so if the cops now ask where you you got the 25 grand from you can now say that you won it at the casino in a game of poker. And be able to prove it. That is what I am talking about in the name of God.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 6, 2012 07:57PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-06 20:30, tommy wrote:
What in the name of God are you talking about?

It would not have to be a large game at all. It would depend on how big a dealer you were and how much you needed to launder. Not all drug dealers are Pablo Escobar. Lets you that you sold a Kilo? What would that be, lets say 25 grand. Now you need to account for it if asked. So you give it to your pal and both play in the casino cash game for week if you like and your pal dumps to you so if the cops now ask where you you got the 25 grand from you can now say that you won it at the casino in a game of poker. That is what I am talking about in the name of God.
[/quote]

The dumping just does not make sense to me. In a cash game you sign nothing when you cash in your chips. Just let him get the chips and give them to you and cash them in at your leisure.

I play a lot of cash games at the casinos and there are not very many where you can exchange $25,000 between friends. That is a fairly big game. Any way it is where I come from.

With max buyins it would be about 1/4 million dollars plus on the table. In holdem you would be talking about a game with the blinds being at a mininum of $100 and $200. The max limit on the buy in of this game would probably cap around $30,000. That would make it about 150 times the big blind which is around where they cap a buy in with that blind structure.

Again not to many of these games around and when one does come around it is not that easy to get in. Trust me you are not going to be able to dump $25,000 to one guy to easily in this game without raising some eyebrows. These are not the guys from town going to a day at the casino. I just do not see it working as a money laundering opportunity.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 7, 2012 08:26AM)
Is this how it is where you play?

$1-$2 NL Buy-in $50-$200
$2-$5 NL Buy-in $200-$500
$5-$10 NL Buy-in $400-$1,000
$10-$25 NL Buy in $800-$10,000
$25-$50 NL Buy in $2,000-$25,000
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Feb 7, 2012 01:54PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-06 10:22, tommy wrote:
Me? I am just the pot washer! The bosses chair is over there with Mr Cagliostro in it. :)
[/quote]
Please, I’m little embarrassed by your rightful and justified display of reverence towards me. ;)

I don’t want you to feel slighted because of your acceptance of a position of deference. A very nice cushion has been placed at the foot of my chair exclusively reserved for your use. Should I receive a favorable report on your pot-washing ability, rest assured you will be promoted to a higher position of head bottle washer and table sweep. :)

Once again, don’t thank me any further. I know you are very appreciative and it is my pleasure to be helpful in this regard.

Since your exclusive cushion will no doubt get a great deal of use by you, rest assured it will be replaced promptly at the first sign of wear.

Majestically submitted, :D

Cagliostro
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Feb 7, 2012 04:02PM)
The reason why no one hears about money laundering in the states is because the people that have any significant amount to launder goes to other countries to clean up their money...
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Feb 7, 2012 04:09PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-07 09:26, tommy wrote:
Is this how it is where you play?

$1-$2 NL Buy-in $50-$200
$2-$5 NL Buy-in $200-$500
$5-$10 NL Buy-in $400-$1,000
$10-$25 NL Buy in $800-$10,000
$25-$50 NL Buy in $2,000-$25,000
[/quote]

that's pretty standard more or less at most casino poker rooms... at least the bigger casinos..
Message: Posted by: acesover (Feb 7, 2012 04:18PM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-07 09:26, tommy wrote:
Is this how it is where you play?

$1-$2 NL Buy-in $50-$200
$2-$5 NL Buy-in $200-$500
$5-$10 NL Buy-in $400-$1,000
$10-$25 NL Buy in $800-$10,000
$25-$50 NL Buy in $2,000-$25,000
[/quote]

Both tommy and iamslow are correct it is very close.

$1-$2 min $60 max $300
$2-$5 min $120 max $700
$5-$10 min $250 not sure of max
not sure on the $25-$50 either

There are two local casinos and they are both slightly different. Mohegan Sun and Mount Airy. also one in Allentown but never been there.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 7, 2012 06:25PM)
What I was saying was that one would not have to do it in one hit, one game, as one could, if one liked, do it over a week or whatever. You could for example dunp 5 grand a night for five days. But I think you are right its not so simple as I first thought. All I thought was there must be a lot of it going on in poker and thought there might be an advantage to had if only one could spot it was going on.

I have played with dealers in casino's I know as every now then a player will vanish and you ask where is so and so? They tell you, oh he got busted for drug dealing or whatever. I have played with some players for decades and I don't known what they do outside the casino.
Message: Posted by: The great Gumbini (Feb 21, 2012 12:58AM)
Well whatever slight I would use I would practice, practice and practice (with broken fingers because if yous get caught yous in trouble).


Good magic to all,


Eric
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Feb 21, 2012 04:17AM)
[quote]
On 2012-02-21 01:58, The great Gumbini wrote:
Well whatever slight I would use I would practice, practice and practice (with broken fingers because if yous get caught yous in trouble).


Good magic to all,


Eric
[/quote]

What if the sleight didn't involve fingers? :snail: