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Topic: A World without Money?
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 7, 2011 05:18AM)
A spin off of the post "Do you buy into our future as imagined by Star Trek?" where money doesn't exist in the fictional Sci-Fy.

What would the world be like if money did not exist?

You can travel anywhere or own anything you desire, money is meaningless!

What would you do?

One rule: You cannot own or rule over another person.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 7, 2011 06:08AM)
I would continue writing and doing shows, and everything else that I already do, except without having to worry about the bills.
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Dec 7, 2011 06:29AM)
1: quit my job
2: start drinking
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Dec 7, 2011 11:19AM)
I would see how many Whoppers I could eat in 30 minutes...
Message: Posted by: jugglestruck (Dec 7, 2011 04:16PM)
As far as I can remember, this is the scenario in the last chapter of the book "The history of the world in ten and a half chapters".
When people die they go to heaven where they can do just what they want without money or fear of harm. The conclusion is interesting, when they have done everything possible they just cease to be as they have no incentive to keep going.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Dec 7, 2011 04:19PM)
Everyone would be rich
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 7, 2011 04:22PM)
I'm sure there will always be some way to keep score.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 7, 2011 04:28PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-07 17:19, tommy wrote:
Everyone would be rich
[/quote]

Everyone now is rich, but they don't see it.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 7, 2011 04:31PM)
There will always be the have's, and the have not's.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 7, 2011 04:35PM)
Free drinks?

Everyone would be drunk quite a lot of the time... :ohyes:
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 8, 2011 04:30AM)
That's part of it... drink until you need an artificial kidney, then drink more, keep replacing parts, the liver, and the heart. Eventually your brain will die and so will you.

Then again, there is the artificial liquor served on the enterprise which simulates drunk, but can be instantly wiped from you system. (No-Hangover)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Dec 8, 2011 05:55AM)
Guess that is why it is "Sci Fi" the Fi or Fy standing for Fiction. It does not exist. Never will exist. It is fiction. Just fun to ponder.

I would havea to say it is the "Impossible Situation".
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Dec 8, 2011 04:23PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-07 07:08, mastermindreader wrote:
I would continue writing and doing shows, and everything else that I already do, except without having to worry about the bills.
[/quote]

Glad to here that although I doubt it is true with most. I also wonder if you would have an audience to perform for? It reminds me of a story I heard from Jeff McBride where he performed a show at the birthday party of a very rich celebrity. Everyone was so drunk at the location that no one had any real interest in anything Jeff did. To here Jeff tell it, it was quite a sad and depressing experience. I wonder if that is how most people would behave given the premise of the thread.

Mike
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 8, 2011 04:31PM)
That's the kind of audiences that I'm used to given the joints I frequently work.

:eek:

But now that I think of it, if I lived in a world without it, I think I would go ahead and invent money. If I didn't, I'm sure someone else would. I mean, if you can't pay someone to do the menial but necessary tasks in a society, who would do them?

Good thoughts,

Bob
Message: Posted by: critter (Dec 8, 2011 04:34PM)
Well, I put more money into my sport than I get out of it, so I'd still do it if I didn't have to pay :)
And my other activities too.
Pretty much everything I do these days is because I love to do it. Whether that's magic or jitz or playing with heavy objects.

I'm not getting any money or credits for the work I'm doing in the Social Psych lab either. I volunteer because it's fun and interesting. Well, it does look good on my resume too.
Message: Posted by: critter (Dec 8, 2011 04:37PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 17:31, mastermindreader wrote:
That's the kind of audiences that I'm used to given the joints I frequently work.

:eek:

But now that I think of it, if I lived in a world without it, I think I would go ahead and invent money. If I didn't, I'm sure someone else would. I mean, if you can't pay someone to do the menial but necessary tasks in a society, who would do them?

Good thoughts,

Bob
[/quote]

That's got me thinking, in a world of holodecks and food synthesizers, it seems like the most powerful individuals would be the maintenence workers who know how to keep those things running.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Dec 8, 2011 10:04PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 17:37, critter wrote:
That's got me thinking, in a world of holodecks and food synthesizers, it seems like the most powerful individuals would be the maintenence workers who know how to keep those things running.
[/quote]

They're not now. Why would they be then? ;)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 8, 2011 10:23PM)
It just dawned on me that it is impossible to keep Dennis's rule that you cannot rule over or own someone.

Knowledge would be the substitute for currency. Those with the knowledge would automatically have the power.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Dec 8, 2011 10:33PM)
I don't see what good it would be to have the power of maintenance. What could you get that you couldn't have otherwise?

OTOH, what motivation do the maintenance guys have to do their jobs?

This is all so confusing.
Message: Posted by: Josh Chaikin (Dec 8, 2011 10:43PM)
Everyone has a role, everyone knows their role and everyone does their rule for the betterment of the community. I can't quite place it, but this premise does remind me of a short story I read long ago.
Message: Posted by: critter (Dec 8, 2011 10:47PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 23:33, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I don't see what good it would be to have the power of maintenance. What could you get that you couldn't have otherwise?
[/quote]

Because the people who know how to keep the holodecks and food synthesizers running would be the only thing keeping us in the lap of Starfleet-y luxury.

I don't know if anybody else noticed this either, but TNG Klingons are kind of wimpy for the ultimate warrior race. They're really only tough in comparison to the Starfleet "we need a ship counsellor now because for some reason a Holodeck and free food and visiting hundreds of new planets aren't quite enough to keep us happy" crowd.
You may never see a Harley parked outside of a therapist's office but, apparently, you will see a Galaxy Class Starship parked outside of one.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Dec 8, 2011 11:27PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-08 23:43, Josh Chaikin wrote:
Everyone has a role, everyone knows their role and everyone does their rule for the betterment of the community. I can't quite place it, but this premise does remind me of a short story I read long ago.
[/quote]


[quote]
On 2011-11-28 13:41, LobowolfXXX wrote:
It'd be good to run a similar joke about a collectivist fairytale, but there are too many to choose from.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 9, 2011 03:32AM)
I really like your post critter, especially the need for a counselor in a world where you have access to everything you desire.

Also true is "knowledge is power" and that exists now.
Message: Posted by: irossall (Dec 9, 2011 07:05AM)
The ONLY reason I show up at my workplace every morning is the fact that I get what I need to survive (money). If I did not need my job to survive, I would not go to work. Who is going to provide the things that we human's desire? Yes, some people love their jobs enough they may go to work every day anyway but I am afraid that too many would not go to their jobs and the rest of us would suffer greatly. Can't happen.
Iven :patty:
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Dec 11, 2011 07:01PM)
This question kinda sounds like the OWS people I've talked to...

"Yeah, we want everything for free...redistribution of wealth, etc...yada,yada,yada"

Then you woke up...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 11, 2011 07:20PM)
Funny- I've talked to many OWS people and NONE of them said that. (But, then again, I wasn't dreaming that I talked to them so I didn't need to wake up.)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 11, 2011 07:40PM)
Well it is easy to bash the OWS crowd. But then again I have seen many of them say things that I SHOCKINGLY agree with. No kiding. I mean many of them are after government waste and corruption.

Some have said silly things and want silly things, but it is not fair to paint all of them with that brush.

As a rule I do not agree with most of them, but when you peal back the layers and take the time to learn, well then it is shocking as I said. I have to say I have been happy I have. I think often all of us need to try this every once in a while. I bet we end up with a NEW party for politics that has the 60% of us who are probably labeled wrong! Just with the people who agree with us "most".

I am not in support of them mind you, or against them. I just want them to be treated fair. Sort of like I want to be treated.
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Dec 11, 2011 08:15PM)
Free Whoppers for everyone?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Dec 11, 2011 08:26PM)
At least free pickles. That's my absolute, no-turning-back, bottom-line demand.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 11, 2011 08:49PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-11 20:40, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well it is easy to bash the OWS crowd. But then again I have seen many of them say things that I SHOCKINGLY agree with. No kiding. I mean many of them are after government waste and corruption.

Some have said silly things and want silly things, but it is not fair to paint all of them with that brush.

As a rule I do not agree with most of them, but when you peal back the layers and take the time to learn, well then it is shocking as I said. I have to say I have been happy I have. I think often all of us need to try this every once in a while. I bet we end up with a NEW party for politics that has the 60% of us who are probably labeled wrong! Just with the people who agree with us "most".

I am not in support of them mind you, or against them. I just want them to be treated fair. Sort of like I want to be treated.
[/quote]

Fair enough, Danny. This time I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 11, 2011 10:10PM)
I am happy to hear it sir. I would think everyone can agree with the spirit of that post.

I am sure it does not come across that way, but I really try to get to this place all the time.
Message: Posted by: Slide (Dec 12, 2011 09:43AM)
There are societies that have existed without money. Before the deforestation of the rain forest, the pygmys had a pretty utopian society that included no money, as I'm sure other primitive cultures did and still do today. Even in the us in some of the more backwood Appalachian communities, money plays a much smaller role than bartering or just fending for yourself. A few years ago there was a book called something like The Roadkill Cookbook all about living with no money.

More interesting are people who purposefully reduce their reliance on money in order to live a freer lifestyle. There was a recent story about a family of 4 in California, in a suburb of LA, that converted the property into a farm that they feed themselves with and sold the extra for the money that they needed to live on. Their cars ran on recycled food oil. No one in the family worked, but they all seem to lead contented lives, and certainly ate well.

Whether we can replace money completely or not...I don't know but we can certainly reduce our dependance on it and probably improve our lives in the bargain.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 12, 2011 10:32AM)
Informative Bill. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 12, 2011 10:35AM)
Well I think a better way to put that would be YOU can reduce your reliance on it.

Let me ask you something though. What about those who can not take care of themselves? What would you do without the very internet on which you pontificate upon?

Yes indeed you "can" live without money. I am certainly happy that I do not have to choose to.

Oh and by the way "barter" is just another word for money. It really is.
Message: Posted by: Obviously (Dec 12, 2011 11:11AM)
"money" is not real (beyond its physical properties of paper or cheap metal). Money is just an idea. The idea is "value" of an object or service. It seems like a world without money would be a world lacking in values and ideas. Very natural, but animalistic. I guess dogs (and all other non-human animals) already exist in this lind of world in a way.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 12, 2011 11:29AM)
Yea that is what I meant by barter is just another word for money.

I know this utopian idea has some appeal, but for some reason it just does not pan out so well in reality. I wonder why?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Dec 12, 2011 05:17PM)
Lets see how this bartering works. This guys needs a kindey trnasplant so he goes to the guy who does kidney trnasplants and the guy says ok I will do the transplant but you have to cut my grass for the next year. I just don't see this working out. :)

I mean who wants to do yard work for a year? :)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 12, 2011 06:31PM)
This is exactly why money is more precice, or something most agree is of almost universal value.

Plus you forget the kidney guy must NEED someone to do his yard for a year. So you now have to match the need of the guy needing a kidney, and the need of the guy doing the kidney operation.

I notice that all the examples have far less than 350 million people in them.

As I said feel free to live in any way you see fit. Stop using computers and running water and electricity and heating oil and cars and so forth. Not a problem, drop right out of society. It should make you feel really good. I only ask not to need the same things from me is all. Nobody has, I just am drawing the line is all. If you think you are more "free" without money, then cool.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Dec 13, 2011 12:04AM)
Such a system requires righteous people, kind of the way our republic required a moral and religious citizenry in order to endure. I guess we really cannot handle either.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 13, 2011 05:03AM)
The movie "Instinct", Starring Anthony Hopkins, Cuba Gooding Jr. and Donald Sutherland focused on "freedom" a world without money and they thought he was crazy.

It was a very "thought provoking" movie.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Dec 13, 2011 07:40AM)
If we didn't have money men would still envy other men that have a more beautiful wife, so we will move from who has the most money to who has the finest things.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 13, 2011 07:53AM)
[quote]On 2011-12-12 10:43, BillMcCloskey wrote:
More interesting are people who purposefully reduce their reliance on money in order to live a freer lifestyle. There was a recent story about a family of 4 in California, in a suburb of LA, that converted the property into a farm that they feed themselves with and sold the extra for the money that they needed to live on. Their cars ran on recycled food oil. No one in the family worked, but they all seem to lead contented lives, and certainly ate well.[/quote]
I wish them well (sincerely), but I wonder what will happen should any of them, say, develop a life-threatening medical condition, or suffer a catastrophic accident.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 13, 2011 07:55AM)
Personally, I don't need any money; it's all the people I owe who need money.
Message: Posted by: GaryLee (Dec 13, 2011 08:48AM)
I'd still be broke, and still be working for peanuts!
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Dec 13, 2011 09:18AM)
It was mentioned some posts back that in heaven people could do whatever they want and that eventually people would cease to do anything because there was no incentive. I find this troubling. If money is the prime incentive to do anything then our priorities are REALLY messed up.

Yes, I am an idealist and I am unashamed to state that. Yes, the future that people like Roddenberry and Straczynski may seem quite unrealistic to us, but, to have the idea - the vision - I believe makes it possible. Remember the scene in The Shawshank Redemption when Andy Dufresne returns from the hole after being put there for broadcasting Mozart? He stated that he had the music to keep him company in solitary and that was something they could never take from him. That is a powerful lesson IMHO. All the money in the world cannot buy back even a nanosecond of our lives and all the riches that ever were, are and will be of all kings, queens, and emperors are but pauper's wages compared to even one iota of knowledge that we can acquire every moment of everyday.

I want TIME, not money. I want to know everything - the sacred and the profane. Yes in a sense that is quite Epicurean yet I am quite Stoic about the notion. Our perspective is colored by our existence. Money seems necessary because for eons we have been made to believe that it is so. Yet for all the apparent reasons for war, the real reason for every single war has been economic. And while countries find new ways to annihilate other countries to get what they have, miracles happen every second but the specter of the euro, pound, dollar, peso, yen, etc., blinds us. Success is so often defined by the size of one's bank account. How pitifully narrow such a view is! Look at a night sky or a forest or yourself and see what is really important - real wealth is there staring right back at you.

Some may argue that money would allow me the time I so desire. I would reply that such an assertion is based only on one paradigm.

I do not agree that there will always be haves and have nots because money is an artificial thing. Whether you call the personage God, Thor, Brahma, Goddess, or perhaps you might be one of the many that believe we are an accident, one thing remains clear and that is the fact that WE created the haves and have nots.

I am realistic enough to believe that I will not see the world that utopians envision in my life time. In my 36 years however I have seen many positive steps toward these possible futures. The problem is that the greatest of our visionaries like Christ, Lincoln, and Gandhi, are killed because THEIR message threatens the status quo. But their messages cannot be silenced and their messages have reach so many and those messages are beyond the value of all material riches.

John D. Rockefeller was notoriously penurious. He would tip waiters a mere dime - IF the waiters were lucky. Yet, on his death bed, Rockefeller said that he would give his entire fortune for just ten more minutes.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Dec 13, 2011 09:24AM)
S2000 asked a question that intrigued me concerning the family that has been sustaining itself. He asked, "but I wonder what will happen should any of them, say, develop a life-threatening medical condition, or suffer a catastrophic accident."

Money has placed an artificial value on human life. It states that if you cannot pay, your life is not worth saving. In this world of money, it would be a catastrophe for this family I am certain and I pray that such a calamity does not visit them. But the deeper question is why people are left to suffer simply because they do not have the requisite amount of green bits of paper?

Then again, lives have been sold for 40 pieces of silver so I suppose my question is pointless. If God Incarnate is only worth 40 pieces of silver, then what chance has anyone else?

Ahimsa,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 13, 2011 10:14AM)
Very insightful Vlad.

There is truth in the saying. "Money is the root of all evil."

I've been in a position where my choice was money or health, and when your breath is taken away, money is meaningless.

The future will be the cost of your life when it comes to universal health. A time will come where the decision will be made on the cost to keep you alive is not financially feasible, so you are to die. The "handwriting is on the wall" but so many are wearing blinders.

Right now we print phoney money and it does have purchase power. At what time does it become worthless?

Just some things to think about is a world where money rules.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Dec 13, 2011 10:54AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-13 11:14, Dennis Michael wrote:
Very insightful Vlad.

There is truth in the saying. "Money is the root of all evil."

[/quote]

The line comes from St. Paul's first letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 6)

[quote]
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. [/quote]

It's a lovely, rich passage.

John
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 13, 2011 11:58AM)
[quote]On 2011-12-13 11:54, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-13 11:14, Dennis Michael wrote:
There is truth in the saying. "Money is the root of all evil."[/quote]
The line comes from St. Paul's first letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 6)

. . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . . .[/quote]
Note that it's not [i]money[/i] that's the root of all evil; it's [b][i]the love of money[/i][/b] that's the root of all evil.
Message: Posted by: critter (Dec 13, 2011 01:59PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-13 12:58, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-13 11:54, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-13 11:14, Dennis Michael wrote:
There is truth in the saying. "Money is the root of all evil."[/quote]
The line comes from St. Paul's first letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 6)

. . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . . .[/quote]
Note that it's not [i]money[/i] that's the root of all evil; it's [b][i]the love of money[/i][/b] that's the root of all evil.
[/quote]

Well then I'm safe. I only love the stuff that money buys me.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 13, 2011 06:55PM)
I hasten to point out that those without money die at an even quicker rate don't they?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 13, 2011 07:59PM)
Not necessarily.
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 14, 2011 12:41AM)
I am happy to take all the money you guys want to part with, in order to live a more meaningful, fulfilled and contented life.

I see it as my service to my fellow man (and woman ;))...

Let ME bear your burden.

Let ME take this heaviness off of your hearts and your weary shoulders.

Let ME have those sleepless nights, not knowing where to turn to, to get all that baggage of filthy currency off of your hands.

Just PM me for the transfer details... :ohyes:

:cucumber:
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 14, 2011 01:22AM)
Pakar,

What good would it be in a world without money? Can't spend it.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 14, 2011 11:06AM)
Looking at the original post, the fact that there's no money in Star Trek is really not a cultural thing- it's directly related to their technology. The Federation has somehow managed to figure out how to harness an [i]unlimited[/i] power supply and has near infinite computational power. They can create anything, near-instantly, using replicator technology. How can you even judge monetary value when you can create gold? At that point, it's better for society to just give up on money- there's no point in even trying to stop counterfeitors anymore. But why bother to counterfeit money anyway, when anything you desire can be created (even people, to some extent, via the holodeck.) They've even managed to cure most diseases. Heck, in theory, you can simply reconstitute someone from their base molecules using transporter technology.

Why worry about something as petty as money in a society like that?
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 15, 2011 01:50AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-14 02:22, Dennis Michael wrote:
Pakar,

What good would it be in a world without money? Can't spend it.
[/quote]

Don't worry, I have plans... :ohyes:
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 15, 2011 04:54AM)
EsnRedshirt,

This was my original point. What would you do if you could create anything, even an audience for your show and program them to like it.

A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Dec 15, 2011 07:11AM)
I doubt substituting a barter system for a monetary system would eliminate greed. There will still be people vying to receive more than they contribute.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 15, 2011 07:48AM)
[quote]On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't; it simply eliminates a handy method of measuring one's wealth.

I'm sure that John Lennon wrote "imagine no possessions" instead of "imagine no money" for reasons deeper than the mere number of syllables.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Dec 15, 2011 09:21AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-14 12:06, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Looking at the original post, the fact that there's no money in Star Trek is really not a cultural thing- it's directly related to their technology. The Federation has somehow managed to figure out how to harness an [i]unlimited[/i] power supply and has near infinite computational power. They can create anything, near-instantly, using replicator technology. How can you even judge monetary value when you can create gold? At that point, it's better for society to just give up on money- there's no point in even trying to stop counterfeitors anymore. But why bother to counterfeit money anyway, when anything you desire can be created (even people, to some extent, via the holodeck.) They've even managed to cure most diseases. Heck, in theory, you can simply reconstitute someone from their base molecules using transporter technology.

Why worry about something as petty as money in a society like that?
[/quote]

Of course, then there's the thought that in "Mudd's Women," Harry Mudd convinces his three beauties to try and hook up with "lithium miners, lonely [i]rich[/i] lithium miners!" So somewhere out there there is some form of exchange.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 09:48AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 08:48, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't; it simply eliminates a handy method of measuring one's wealth.

I'm sure that John Lennon wrote "imagine no possessions" instead of "imagine no money" for reasons deeper than the mere number of syllables.
[/quote]

Yea I found it ironic that a man who wrote "imagine no possessions" had so darn many of them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 09:49AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
EsnRedshirt,

This was my original point. What would you do if you could create anything, even an audience for your show and program them to like it.

A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.
[/quote]

So your claim, if I understand your last sentnece, is that money is what creates "greed"? Is that right? Greed and envy? Seriously?

To be blunt I believe this world you propose would steal my soul.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 15, 2011 09:57AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
EsnRedshirt,

This was my original point. What would you do if you could create anything, even an audience for your show and program them to like it.

A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.
[/quote]
Pretty much. There would still be the fame/reknown factor one gets by inventing or performing something novel- but that's arguably a benefit to society. I think there would be two types of people in a cashless, Star Trek society- the people who would strive to better themselves and their society, and the hedonists. We never really see the hedonists on Star Trek, probably because they don't have the temperment to enter the Star Fleet, but I assume they might make up a sizable portion of the population. Would the achievers quietly resent the hedonists? Then again, maybe the hedonists would end up culling themselves from society through a sort of Lotus Eater syndrome- if you spend all your time in a holodeck, you're probably not going to have much impact on society at all, either positive or negative. Or maybe the hedonists enter politics... :)

I do know, personally, it would be nice to be able to spend all my time on my hobbies, learning and creating things. So I'd probably strive to be an achiever. With the occasional lapse into hedonism (though to be fair, we even see this among the Enterprise crew from time to time.)
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 15, 2011 10:08AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 10:49, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
EsnRedshirt,

This was my original point. What would you do if you could create anything, even an audience for your show and program them to like it.

A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.
[/quote]

So your claim, if I understand your last sentnece, is that money is what creates "greed"? Is that right? Greed and envy? Seriously?

To be blunt I believe this world you propose would steal my soul.
[/quote]Love of money is one thing that creates greed. So eliminating money would eliminate one aspect of that vice. Then again, to quote Terry Pratchett- “Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things.” In a Star Trek society, only real people would be unattainable without effort, so I'm sure we'd see a big surge of coveting of neighbors' wives, so to speak.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 15, 2011 10:15AM)
[quote]On 2011-12-15 10:48, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-15 08:48, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On 2011-12-15 05:54, Dennis Michael wrote:
A world without money eliminates the greed factor that dominates "man" today.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure it doesn't; it simply eliminates a handy method of measuring one's wealth.

I'm sure that John Lennon wrote "imagine no possessions" instead of "imagine no money" for reasons deeper than the mere number of syllables.[/quote]
Yea I found it ironic that a man who wrote "imagine no possessions" had so darn many of them.[/quote]
But a good imagination, apparently.

He also wrote, "All You Need Is Love". Once you're a bazillionaire, that is.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 10:16AM)
Vice will be there no matter what utopian dreams people want to put forth. It is a Yin Yang thing. How can you appreciate virtue in the absence of vice? Not a tough concept.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 10:20AM)
What do you do in Utopia when someone manages to accidently create something people want and that person does not want to "give it away"? A person who does not want to participate in your UTOPIA and then simply starts to sort of create money? What then?
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 15, 2011 10:29AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 11:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
What do you do in Utopia when someone manages to accidently create something people want and that person does not want to "give it away"? A person who does not want to participate in your UTOPIA and then simply starts to sort of create money? What then?
[/quote] Can't happen. Someone would simply replicate it. (Maybe illegally, depending on how copyright is defined.) If it was something that would benefit society as a whole- a cure for one of the rare, remaining diseases, perhaps- it would probably be put into public domain by the powers that be. The 'greedy' creator might thereafter be shunned as a 'deviant'.

I'm not saying there isn't an ugly side to such a future (even if it was possible, which it probably isn't.) But we, as a whole, certainly couldn't make the transition into a Star Trek-style, cashless society overnight. There would be a lot of social and moral development required by the human race as a whole before such a society could be implimented.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Dec 15, 2011 10:32AM)
With all this talk about the future as imagined by the multi-billion dollar Star Trek franchise, I'm sure that Karl Marx is torn between turning over in his grave and rubbing his hands.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Dec 15, 2011 10:34AM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 11:08, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Love of money is one thing that creates greed.
[/quote]

One of the things that [i]reflects[/i] greed, IMO. The creation of greed is probably coded and hidden away on some yet-unknown chromosome.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 03:08PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 11:29, EsnRedshirt wrote:
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 11:20, Dannydoyle wrote:
What do you do in Utopia when someone manages to accidently create something people want and that person does not want to "give it away"? A person who does not want to participate in your UTOPIA and then simply starts to sort of create money? What then?
[/quote] Can't happen. Someone would simply replicate it. (Maybe illegally, depending on how copyright is defined.) If it was something that would benefit society as a whole- a cure for one of the rare, remaining diseases, perhaps- it would probably be put into public domain by the powers that be. The 'greedy' creator might thereafter be shunned as a 'deviant'.

I'm not saying there isn't an ugly side to such a future (even if it was possible, which it probably isn't.) But we, as a whole, certainly couldn't make the transition into a Star Trek-style, cashless society overnight. There would be a lot of social and moral development required by the human race as a whole before such a society could be implimented.
[/quote]

Utopia through forced compliance and fantasy? Not a world I wish to see.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 15, 2011 03:09PM)
How about a cure for baldness? All disease gone and still Piccard is bald. Man that sucks.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 15, 2011 04:14PM)
Maybe his baldness is a fashion choice?

As for forced compliance... well, think about it. You already have access to everything you could ever desire. Then you discover the cure for cancer. You have absolutely nothing to gain from withholding knowledge that could save people's lives- you've already got access to everything. So why would you want to withhold it, unless you want people to die? I'd think that such a person, in a society where everything is given freely, might well be considered criminally insane- such actions would be unthinkable to the rest of society.

Like I said, such a society could not appear overnight- it would take years, maybe even generations, for humankind to evolve socially and emotionally to the point where it's ready for such a thing. Assuming that the technology which enables it is even possible in the first place. (Don't worry, it's almost certainly not, unless some very established laws of physics turn out to be wrong.)
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 15, 2011 11:23PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-15 16:09, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about a cure for baldness? All disease gone and still Piccard is bald. Man that sucks.
[/quote]

Yup, always wondered about that... ;)

[quote]
On 2011-12-15 17:14, EsnRedshirt wrote:

As for forced compliance... well, think about it. You already have access to everything you could ever desire. Then you discover the cure for cancer. You have absolutely nothing to gain from withholding knowledge that could save people's lives- you've already got access to everything. So why would you want to withhold it, unless you want people to die? I'd think that such a person, in a society where everything is given freely, might well be considered criminally insane- such actions would be unthinkable to the rest of society.


[/quote]

What about things that require consent (money or no money) you might not get it?

Like sex.

Sex is free too? (That's some future... ;))

If not, that would be a great motivation to hold on to things that would give you authority and "leverage".

The whole Alpha Male thing gone too? I can't imagine so...

No positions of authority at all? There are many in Star Trek right?

So, sex and power would make some hold on to things.

Just human nature.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 16, 2011 04:42AM)
In the holodeck, a hugh replicator, you can have sex with anyone you choose.

Alpha Male is the new "greed". People with money want found out it is meaningless, so they strive for power. Warren Buffet is a prime example.

All the money in the world and you are forgotten when you die, you can't take it with you so power in the history books keeps your name alive a lot longer.

[quote]Utopia through forced compliance and fantasy? Not a world I wish to see.[/quote]

There never will be a "Utopia World". What I like about the above statement exists now, it's called "Excessive government control and financial fairness". The OW mantra.

This topic removes that perspective from the equation. Greed no longer exists, which brings us back to the original premise, What would you do in a world where money doesn't exist. You are no longer working for a paycheck, you medical is taken care of for "the most part", you will eventually die, so how would you "leave your mark" in this world?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 16, 2011 08:12AM)
I am telling you that greed will exist. It is part of the human condition. All vice is. It exists in EVERY group where one person has a shiny stone that another does not.

Vice exists. It MUST exist for if it didn't some new vice would replace what you are lamenting as "greed". Utopian fantasy life just does not work.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 16, 2011 08:58AM)
You are right Danny!
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Dec 16, 2011 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-16 05:42, Dennis Michael wrote:

...so how would you "leave your mark" in this world?
[/quote]

I'd pee on everyone's furniture

As an agnostic regarding evolution, I find it difficult to believe that humans could ever evolve to a "higher" level in which greed has disappeared. And if I were in fact a believer in evolution, it seems to me that greed might well be a part of our inherited traits necessary for the survival of the species.

But right now I can't type anymore. Gotta take the dog out. He's gonna pee on trees, and I'm gonna pee on all the BMW's.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 16, 2011 01:16PM)
Wouldn't that be a great way to buy a truck?

"Yea that's my truck, I just went pee on it. 47 more pees and it is mine I own it outright.
Message: Posted by: EsnRedshirt (Dec 16, 2011 02:44PM)
Yeah, but you'd have to out-pee everyone else who also wants to own it.

And I'd make a small fortune selling gallon-sized cups of coffee. (Cash only, no pee, thanks.)
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 16, 2011 02:56PM)
I would just get a cup of coffee from the replicator. Unfortunately, the replicator works on human waste, breaking it down to its basic elements and using those elements to create a new item.

Donuts anyone?
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Dec 18, 2011 06:13PM)
"Humans are chimpanzees crazy drunk on power."
- Kurt Vonnegut
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 18, 2011 06:55PM)
[quote]
On 2011-12-16 15:56, Dennis Michael wrote:
I would just get a cup of coffee from the replicator. Unfortunately, the replicator works on human waste, breaking it down to its basic elements and using those elements to create a new item.

Donuts anyone?
[/quote]

Study more about how syrup is made and you will be shocked what is broken down to go into it.
Message: Posted by: Dennis Michael (Dec 19, 2011 03:23AM)
Scrapple anyone?