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Topic: Do you think I should become a pro magician and where do I get started
Message: Posted by: Themagicquest (Sep 23, 2003 09:02PM)

All this message only goes out to pros out there (not people who think they are because they did one kids show once). :bg: Well anyway I was wondering where I should get started and how many people want a magician anyway? How much do you think I would make? Could I support a family? Message me back PLEASE.

Love all
Cameron Woodward
Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Sep 23, 2003 09:25PM)
Let me take on a few questions...

[b]How many people want a magician anyway?[/b]
Answer? No one does!

But I can show you the answer to being a MAGICIAN and being IN DEMAND. When I say in demand I mean in a way where you can't take a call without call-waiting beeping through.
So in demand that people want you booked a year in advance!

[b]How much do you think I would make?[/b]
I hate to answer a question with a question(s) but...[list=1][*]How good is your show?
[*]How good is your marketing?[/list]People say you can only charge what a market will withstand.

I know performers that charge double, TRIPLE, what "the market" will withstand and they get that fee and their clients don't think twice.

It's all your marketing. Want to know more? I bet you do.

[b]Could you support a family?[/b]
It depends. Does a: [list][*]Nice house
[*]Cars in the garage
[*]And food on the table...every night sound like a good start?[/list]The simple answer to your question is this...you can lead a horse to water but...

If you want to learn and GROW RICH, join us at http://www.thedean.net/forum

It's a place where, "pros out there (not people who think they are because they did I kids show once)", grow their businesses.

Robert Bloor
Message: Posted by: David Garrity (Sep 23, 2003 09:59PM)

Wow, I didn't realize "The Dean" had his own forum on marketing!!

Thanks for the link!

Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Sep 24, 2003 06:06PM)

Oh yes! TheDean's forum is a place for real professionals to get real world advice.

We don't hold back.
We call 'em as we see 'em.

Accountability and relational support are rampant over there at Dean's University of Success.


Only those performers who REALLY want to make a difference for themselves, become better people, make loads of money, and impact OTHERS LIVES for the BETTER, should bother going to join the board.

Those that just want to "talk about tricks," would do better off popping the last David Blaine special in their VCR.

Robert Bloor
Message: Posted by: Luis Sirgado (Sep 25, 2003 06:45AM)
Thank you Robert, because I didn´t about know the existence of that forum, I saw a little bit of the forum and I think is very good. The forum have lots of advice, it´s very nice.

Thank´s Robert. :genielamp:
Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Sep 25, 2003 05:00PM)
Senor Sirgado,

Don't thank me. Thank TheDean. He absolutely dedicates his life to the success of others.

It's a great community of professional support.

Give it a try!

Robert Bloor
Message: Posted by: Michaels (Sep 25, 2003 05:42PM)

I PM'd you asking your age so that I may address your question in a fair manner. As I presumed, you are very young which was evident from the questions you asked. However, your age has no bearing on your skill in magic or whether or not your good enough to become a "Pro". I went pro 35 years ago when I was exactly your age (14). My first year I performed approximately 12 shows for pay. Now to address your questions directly...

If you want to go pro ask yourself if you're good enough and do you have enough confidence in your magic and your performing ability.

As far as supporting a family—well I can honestly tell you it's possible with 100% dedication but if I may also add, many professional magicians have a full-time day job. Make your education your priority while you cultivate your interest or possible career in magic.

Now to respond to where to start...As the adage goes, start in your own backyard. If you perform kids shows find gigs in your neighborhood then venture out. If close-up is your style then look for bookings at local restaurants (if legal).

How much can you make? What you make depends on you and I don't believe it would be fair for any pro to speculate on that.

Most pros out there knew when they were ready to take that leap. You will also know when that day comes.

Good luck!
Message: Posted by: RobertBloor (Sep 25, 2003 07:01PM)
Michaels: But if I may also add many professional magicians have a full-time day job.

I can't urge you enough to disregard this particular comment.

You're either a professional magician or you're not. There's not 40 hours a week at a full-time job and being a "pro" on nights and weekends.

This is a popular misconception. The fact is one who holds a full time "day" job and does magic, paid or not, is still a hobbyist.

You can't be both.
Robert Bloor
Message: Posted by: Michaels (Sep 26, 2003 07:51AM)
Everybody has their own definition of professional.

Webster even has his:

1) Of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or engaged in a profession: professional schools; professional training. 2) Engaged in a specific activity as a source of livelihood: 3) Performed by people receiving pay 4) Engaged in an activity as though it were a profession: A professional student


In response to Robert Bloor's comments, the point is this:

You can be professional in more than one venture in life. The amount of time and dedication to those professions becomes an individual choice and ultimately may affect the bottom line dollar you make. There are many pro golfers, football players, bowlers, tennis players, stage actors, as well as magicians, who engage in real estate, medicine and own businesses as either their major source of income or as adjunct income.

Just as an example, Greg Norman and Arnold Palmer spent most of the hours of their pro years involved in business ventures rather than the actual hours of practicing and playing golf. Try telling Lance Armstrong he's not a professional cyclist. Although he makes money cycling that's not his major source of income.

Try telling Al Cohen he's not a professional magician because he hasn't performed for god knows how many years and because his main source of income was from the selling of souvenirs in DC. And I presume Tom Mullica has lost his magician's professional status because he spends most of his time working on his Red Skelton show.

To this day Tom Mullica is considered one of the top entertaining "professional" close up magicians in the world. Larry Davidson is another example of one of the most creative pros and is well respected by top-name professional peers such as Bob Sheets, Al Cohen, Bob Kohler and Scotty York just to name a few. Try telling him he's not a professional magician because he
holds down a 40-hour job during the day.

Bottom line is this, professionalism can be measured by level of income and/or level of skill depending on whose definition you use. To insinuate that it is measured by the number of hours spent engaging in that "profession" is not only ludicrous, it's downright absurd. Unless you're entertaining for children's birthday parties, most adult entertaining magicians perform at night which gives them plenty of time for their daytime jobs.

As I stated before, (you being 14) continue to cultivate your interest in magic and see where it leads you but while you're on that path always make education your priority.

Message: Posted by: Themagicquest (Sep 26, 2003 02:21PM)
Well I'm ready for "that leap" on as for skill and confidence, I'm not worried about that. And I am always thinking about my education but I want to know if it will be possible for me to make magic my full-time job.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Sep 26, 2003 10:04PM)
This topic got me to thinking...why do we designate good magic by either being amateur or professional?

It seems to me that perhaps the catagories should be beginner, intermediate and expert.

Many of the greatest magicians I've met has never done a paid performance. Many greats may do an occasional show.

Many professional magicians are only great at marketing their show. Sadly the client and audience are disappointed. On the backside, this type of pro never works for the same client more than once.

Then their are pros like Paul Gertner, Seth Kramer and many more that consistenly give the clients more than they ever expected and, therefore, they work for the same clients for many years.

So if you choose magic as a profession learn marketing but first get a professional level show together.

Two of my favorite magicians were strictly amateur...Jack Birnman and John Ramsay. If you're an amateur you're in good company.
Message: Posted by: Steven Steele (Sep 26, 2003 11:36PM)
Bob is right on. I know many technically superior magicians who don't perform for the public. I also know some technically adequate magicians, but excel in showmanship, who do quite well. They don't try to compete with the teckies...and the teckies don't compete with the performers.

In addition there are some very good inventors of magic that don't perform at all. What do we call them? Some of the best advice about my show, I've gotten from manufacturers of effects.

I think it's enough to say that I'm a magician and that I make 100% of my income doing magic. I leave it to my audience to determine whether or not I'm a professional. If I'm not...I'll soon be an amateur.


Message: Posted by: Michaels (Sep 27, 2003 02:02PM)
On 2003-09-27 00:36, Steven Steele wrote:

I leave it to my audience to determine whether or not I'm a professional. If I'm not...I'll soon be an amateur.


My point exactly. As I stated before, everyone has their own definition of professional, but it's truly the definition of those who we perform for that matters.

Message: Posted by: G-Diddy (Sep 28, 2003 09:27PM)
I agree with the point that there are many levels of what people call "professional". And again, what you make is a combination of many factors that go much beyond skill and technical ability, one must consider presentation, marketing, social ability, etc.

I turned professional for a short period in my life and did magic as my sole income...and personally I found that entering this profession is a bit more difficult than many others. Demand varies quite a bit from place to place. For example New York City shows may pay several times more than a show is say Ohio...

For the younger readers, it is best to pursue all interests, learn magic, and find your calling in life—maybe it will be for you, maybe not.
Message: Posted by: Larry Davidson (Oct 5, 2003 01:14PM)
Michaels, I was with you until you named "Larry Davidson." He's a hack.

I like Bob K's distinctions. They're more meaningful in my opinion than the amateur vs. professional distinction.

Concerning your specific questions about how much you can make if you can support a family, there's no one answer. I know magicians who make next to nothing and others who make fortunes. I could say the same about businessmen I know, accountants I know, or just about any profession.

Understanding that you're very young (not even in high school yet?), I suggest that you don't deny your heart if it's into magic, but that you also don't deny your education. An education can help you become successful at whatever you choose to pursue, including magic. With respect to topics that will be of particular benefit to you as a professional magician, at some point in your life you should pursue knowledge of acting, marketing, etc., and most importantly, realize that a good education in anything can teach you to think critically, which is important if you want to become a good magician or a good anything in life.

Good luck, Larry Davidson
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Oct 5, 2003 08:28PM)
I advise you to buy three type of books/tapes: Books/tapes on the magic you like to do, books/tapes dealing with magic marketing and books/tapes about setting your goal. If you really have the inspiration and interest, you can't go wrong.
Message: Posted by: Scott Grimm (Oct 6, 2003 12:14PM)
"Professionals built the Titanic. Amateurs built Noah's Ark. Who do you trust?"