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Topic: Derren Brown on 'The One Show' is this a trick or NLP?
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 07:48AM)
Hello members

I've recently gained an interest in mentalism but have been performing close-up for a number of years.

I saw Derren Browns recent appearance on the UK talk show 'The One Show' and was intrigued by the 'trick' he performed. That brings me to, is this actually a 'trick' or is he using
some sort of genuine psycological force such as using certain gestures to influence the host?

Here is the link to the clip: https://vimeo.com/45306701

Thanks in advance

Jonty
Message: Posted by: doriancaudal (Jul 6, 2012 07:50AM)
Asking for exposure and information as soon as in your first post is definitely not the right way to begin your trip on this forum ;)
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 08:10AM)
Hi Dorian,

Apologies if it seems I was asking for exposure, that wasn't intended. I was merely seeing if it was a readily available 'trick' that could be purchased as I would happily consider it if someone pointed me in the right direction.

I've also been a member of this Forum for over four years but as I took a break from magic due to other working commitments (filmmaker) I couldn't remember my log in details. That's why I set up a new account :)

Hope someone can advise me on the question I asked. To clarify I'm not asking the method as such, I just want to know if it's an 'effect' that can be purchased.

Jonty
Message: Posted by: Myke Phillips (Jul 6, 2012 08:22AM)
The womens reaction is priceless.

best
Myke
Message: Posted by: thecharlatan (Jul 6, 2012 09:07AM)
I think its pretty obvious between the cutaways whats going on, very cool though!
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 09:17AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 10:07, thecharlatan wrote:
I think its pretty obvious between the cutaways whats going on, very cool though!
[/quote]

hmm this is why I thought it might be NLP but either way, I agree it is very cool.

Incidently I've recently been looking at PSYPHER by Robert Smith which looks great and has had some brilliant reviews. The reason Derren's performance intrigued me so much is because he appeared to have the prediction made BEFORE the spectator did the drawing.
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Jul 6, 2012 09:27AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 09:10, jeggintonfilms wrote:
Hi Dorian,

Apologies if it seems I was asking for exposure, that wasn't intended. I was merely seeing if it was a readily available 'trick' that could be purchased as I would happily consider it if someone pointed me in the right direction.


Hope someone can advise me on the question I asked. To clarify I'm not asking the method as such, I just want to know if it's an 'effect' that can be purchased.

Jonty
[/quote]

That's the problem, nowadays people see someone perform something on tv or theater and immediately the first question is where can I buy it!
What's shame!
Sad
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 09:30AM)
No shame in being inspired :)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 09:36AM)
Study mentalism and you two can do things like this. That is thinking like a mentalist instead of a magician thinking what is this latest trick and where can I buy it.

I mean it's how Derren got to where he is be studying many different works and this is the result. That's well worth it wouldn't you say?
Message: Posted by: kannon (Jul 6, 2012 09:37AM)
The royson-banana principle?
Message: Posted by: Simon (Ted) Edwards (Jul 6, 2012 09:40AM)
Interviewer:

How much is magic and how much is power of the mind?

Derren Brown:

Well it's all sort of one and the same thing, really. I used to say at the start of the shows, which is still true, that when I'm doing that kind of stuff that it's magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.

Which basically means that some of it's real kind of mind skills and hypnosis and suggestion. Some of it's more like a conjurer. More like sort of sleight-of-hand sort of magic and the fun, hopefully, is where you think one ends and the other... starts.

T.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 09:55AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 10:40, Simon (Ted) Edwards wrote:
Interviewer:

How much is magic and how much is power of the mind?

Derren Brown:

Well it's all sort of one and the same thing, really. I used to say at the start of the shows, which is still true, that when I'm doing that kind of stuff that it's magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.

Which basically means that some of it's real kind of mind skills and hypnosis and suggestion. Some of it's more like a conjurer. More like sort of sleight-of-hand sort of magic and the fun, hopefully, is where you think one ends and the other... starts.

T.
[/quote]

In my opinion that is a very true statement by him about UK mentalism. Whilst there are some who will argue that full on "I have special powers so I can read your mind, talk to your dead family members and foresee all!" (Add dramatic thunder and lightening here), works here, it is Derren's approach that works best. He goes out as an entertainment and entertains. He makes no claims of outrageous special powers above what anyone else could have, and leaves all debate up to his audience. (And laughs all the way to the bank!)

I, myself, don't copy his act or routines in any way whatsoever, but I do follow his philosophy on performing mentalism in the UK. Audiences don't feel patronised or confrontational and everyone has a good time.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 11:39AM)
I understand that mentality and approach and it's increased popularity over the last decade or more, but that also makes it less special. If someone believed that anyone can do this/learn this, it becomes less impressive, whereas believing someone has special abilities or powers that most don't possess, instantly makes it more intriguing, interesting and amazing.

His method seems more like the many NLP, body language bandwagon jumpers looking for an easy platform.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 6, 2012 11:42AM)
I claim to read minds. (Since I don't pretend to speak to the dead, I have no idea why one would equate that claim with mine.)

My audiences don't feel confronted or patronized. They are entertained.

But then again we're just a bunch of rubes here in the states, so what would I know?

:eek:
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 11:53AM)
Yeah, I never understood why some here seem to lump all if these unrelated abilities together - mind reading, clairvoyance, talk to the dead, talking to pets/animals, etc. Even in standard mentalism performances, just because you can read minds doesn't necessarily mean you would have the ability to move things with your mind, foresee the future, have amazing memory abilities, remote viewing, and so on.

Same for magicians doing mentalism. Just because you can perform slight of hands or pull something out of your ear, in no ways makes it credible or believable that you can also read minds. Completely separate and different abilities. I never understood this.
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 12:17PM)
Now come on, Bob. You know that I didn't mean offence and also added all the usual 'in my opinions' and 'others will differ' disclaimers.

I do however think that there are some differences between American and British audiences. Neither being good or bad or better.

As it is left to the audience to decide then there will be some who think the performer has special powers no matter what they say or claim and likewise, there will be others who will never believe that someone has special powers no matter what they do or claim.

But an interesting question would be: What is so utterly repugnant about someone either full on claiming or merely implying that the special power that they have is years of study in NLP or body language reading, and that they are an expert in their field? - I understand that that would not suit every performer and/or even every routine just one performer does, but why does that approach seem to be rejected out-of-hand so readily? Is the performer not using their mind and skill after years of learning to achieve something wonderful? (Or seem to be doing that)
Message: Posted by: David Numen (Jul 6, 2012 12:25PM)
Thing is, although Derren puts out this somewhat all-encompassing disclaimer, many laypeople often attribute the very powers he himself would outright deny having.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jul 6, 2012 12:27PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 10:40, Simon (Ted) Edwards wrote:
Interviewer:

How much is magic and how much is power of the mind?

Derren Brown:

Well it's all sort of one and the same thing, really. I used to say at the start of the shows, which is still true, that when I'm doing that kind of stuff that it's magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.

Which basically means that some of it's real kind of mind skills and hypnosis and suggestion. Some of it's more like a conjurer. More like sort of sleight-of-hand sort of magic and the fun, hopefully, is where you think one ends and the other... starts.

T.
[/quote]

I respectfully disagree.
Suggestion, psychology and showmanship ARE parts of misdirection.
His claim to use hypnosis is misdirection.
His claim to use suggestion...we ALL use suggestion. "Pick a card" is a suggestion. "Come up on stage" is a suggestion.
Begin by assuming that everything DB does is magic and figure out his tricks. You'll have far more success than trying to figure out how he uses hypnosis and NLP without studying and training in either.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 6, 2012 12:29PM)
Shrubsole-

I'm just bustin' ya! (Kind of like an homage to the days when we argued all the time.)

There's nothing wrong with any persona or back story a mentalist chooses to use. And, if you think about it, there is NOTHING false about the mind reading claim. You think of something and, one way or the other, I tell you what you're thinking. There's no false claim. I don't make any claim as to HOW I do it, I just do it.

Those who claim, on the other hand, that what they do is pure NLP, body language, etc., actually aren't quite as truthful as I am.
:eek:
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 6, 2012 12:43PM)
The beard suits him...and I like his jacket a lot...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 6, 2012 12:48PM)
Anyone care to make a guess about the frequency of posts that basically ask- "I just saw Derren Brown do X? Is it a trick or NLP?"
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 6, 2012 12:52PM)
Cos of the new stageshow and his tv appearances, I'll go for a fever pitch of 17 different threads started in here and elsewhere about his latest stuff...
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 12:53PM)
I really don't want to know, but I guess it shows how many UK members are represented here, and how many newbies come here just to learn how.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 6, 2012 01:26PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 13:52, IAIN wrote:
Cos of the new stageshow and his tv appearances, I'll go for a fever pitch of 17 different threads started in here and elsewhere about his latest stuff...
[/quote]

I'd say that over the past year there have been at least a few dozen first time posters asking that very question here on the Penny forum.
Message: Posted by: dmoses (Jul 6, 2012 01:32PM)
"STICKY" time!
Message: Posted by: DJ Trix (Jul 6, 2012 01:57PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXFz9hsWhFg&feature=relmfu

Some more effects from Derren on similar lines.
Message: Posted by: The Lone Stranger (Jul 6, 2012 02:03PM)
It is a shame that people these days cannot enjoy an effect without having to know where it can be learned or where it can be bought. It will unfortunately be the same for the trick performed by Dynamo whose new TV series was aired here in the UK last night. As Mastermindreader has correctly highlighted within a few days there will be loads of new posts/posters asking how and where they can by some of these effects.

I am afraid you have to learn to crawl before you can walk, so I would suggest if the original poster has a genuine interest in learning about mentalism they at least learn the basics and then develop thing one step at a time from there, otherwise you will just become another trick monkey.
Sorry if this seems a rant but over the last few days a lot of the people whose work and knowledge is priceless to newbies have posted about exposure and the very same thing that this post is about, and how they are no longer willing to share this knowledge as freely as they have in the past.

I for one wil be gutted as I have learned such a lot from these people and still am and to lose knowledge such as this from the forum does not bear thinking about.

I obviously made the mistake of taking the time to learn instead of getting my post count up.
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 02:15PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 13:53, Mindpro wrote:
I really don't want to know, but I guess it shows how many UK members are represented here, and how many newbies come here just to learn how.
[/quote]

Whilst I appreciate this probably wasn't soley aimed at myself, with due respects It's slightly naive of you (and several others) to assume I'm a newbie because I happened to ask a question regarding Derren Brown.

Forgive me but is this not a place where fellow magicians, mentalists and performers in general share experiences and learn from one another?

Whilst I am new to the art of mentalism (just intrigued at this stage), I am by no means; as stated in my initial post, new to magic. I have been performing close-up for over 8 years and up until about 2 years back I was a member of the magic circle (probably adds little credibility) so fear not, I am not 'another' YouTuber 'Chris Angel' wannabe who's simply fishing for secrets. I am here to talk with others, listen to their experiences / advice as well as giving the same in return where I can.

regards

Jonty :)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 02:20PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 15:03, The Lone Stranger wrote:
It is a shame that people these days cannot enjoy an effect without having to know where it can be learned or where it can be bought. It will unfortunately be the same for the trick performed by Dynamo whose new TV series was aired here in the UK last night. As Mastermindreader has correctly highlighted within a few days there will be loads of new posts/posters asking how and where they can by some of these effects.
[/quote]

This is one of my concerns about our industry, is today audiences, especially the younger generation, automatically seem to know or believe it somehow can be done or is a trick. They don't even have the thought process that it could be real. This as I see it is a detriment to Mentalism.

I remember the first time seeing Kreskin, Uri Geller, and another great of the time who's name escapes me (Peter? maybe Bob could help me I know he probably knows who I'm talking about - a t.v. mentalist of the 60's and maybe 70's) on Mike Douglas, Sullivan, The Tonight Show, Merv Griffin, Hollywood Palace, Virginia Graham, Joey Bishop and other talkshows, you were automatically blown away with amazement at what these guys did, and believed they had special powers and abilities. It was never even a though or idea in your mind of how it was done, or it being magic or trickery.

Today everyone automatically seems to think "how" or that it is a trick that can be learned.
Message: Posted by: Peter_turner (Jul 6, 2012 02:32PM)
I enjoyed the footage here, thanks for posting :D

I like how relaxed Derren is, his pacing is lovely!

Pete
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 02:42PM)
I have found over the years that apart from being a part of the act/routine, it matters little what I say in the way of any claims or lack of them. It's more what's in their minds before I appear than anything I say, no matter how convincing.

I've had all types: One who thought that I do have special powers, one who butted in and said "no he doesn't he uses body language reading/NLP" only to get countermanded by someone else interjecting with "No he...." (Add the most ridiculous and impossible to do explanation here). In fact they seem to be able to argue without me saying a word.

That's a good time for me to remain silent and let them hype me way beyond any advertising I do put together.

...but it's really because of that as to why I personally chose to be a little vague in the area of claims and false explanations. If I have asked someone to think of something and after some overacting I name the thought of item, then I think that they will call that mind reading all by themselves. And to me it doesn't really matter what I call it as they will make up their own minds. Same if I bring down a big envelope that has been in view the whole time... it's a prediction!

As another point: After doing Osterlinds AI, they called it mind reading and I once corrected them and said "No, actually it was a more prediction, followed by a spot of clairvoyance". Blank looks followed. I explained that I didn't ask the first two to think of anything until after I had written something down so I couldn't read what they were thinking of before I had asked them to think of it. Blank looks continued. I said that what I did was to predict what the person(s) was going to name as their friend and then date-of-birth. I then went on to explain clairvoyance as no one had seen the card in the man's pocket...

That was when I learnt never to do that again! (The explanation not AI) it only confused them further and really if they want to call the whole thing mind reading and they go home happy, LET THEM!

I also don't mind if they think I used NLP or mass hypnosis. It's all good and they talk about it for days arguing away.

Sorry this post had a point when I started it, but got lost somewhere....
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 02:56PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 15:20, Mindpro wrote:

This is one of my concerns about our industry, is today audiences, especially the younger generation, automatically seem to know or believe it somehow can be done or is a trick. They don't even have the thought process that it could be real. This as I see it is a detriment to Mentalism.
Today everyone automatically seems to think "how" or that it is a trick that can be learned.
[/quote]

I see that reaction a lot with younger people when they watch it on TV and have never seen an actual live performance of anything. They are good to do an effect on which is ultra clean and where they really do have a free choice. It's great to see their faces when I have done nothing, no moves, all above board and ending clean and yet the impossible has happened. I get a real kick when I see them shut up and question their own beliefs in reality.
Message: Posted by: LBP MAGIC (Jul 6, 2012 03:16PM)
I might suggest that in GOOD mentalism and magic there are no tricks. the "trick" is the last thing that any self respecting magician is worried about. tricks are for school girls and boys without imagination.

or is it possible that the real trick of SUCCESSFUL magicians is tricking all the other boys without imagination into believing that it is all about the trick?
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Jul 6, 2012 03:22PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:16, LBP MAGIC wrote:
I might suggest that in GOOD mentalism and magic there are no tricks. the "trick" is the last thing that any self respecting magician is worried about. tricks are for school girls and boys without imagination.

or is it possible that the real trick of SUCCESSFUL magicians is tricking all the other boys without imagination into believing that it is all about the trick?
[/quote]

Actually I think that for most Magican's the "trick" IS everything! Whereas,the "effect" in Mentalism should always be secondary...
Message: Posted by: LBP MAGIC (Jul 6, 2012 03:38PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:22, innercirclewannabe wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:16, LBP MAGIC wrote:
I might suggest that in GOOD mentalism and magic there are no tricks. the "trick" is the last thing that any self respecting magician is worried about. tricks are for school girls and boys without imagination.

or is it possible that the real trick of SUCCESSFUL magicians is tricking all the other boys without imagination into believing that it is all about the trick?
[/quote]

Actually I think that for most Magican's the "trick" IS everything! Whereas,the "effect" in Mentalism should always be secondary...
[/quote]

effect trick hocus pocus use whatever word you want but 95% of "magicians" and "mentalists" are focused on the wrong thing. Its the same reason that 95% of this crap sucks.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 6, 2012 03:49PM)
I would argue that the 95% of "mentalists" you refer to aren't mentalists at all.
Message: Posted by: Peter_turner (Jul 6, 2012 03:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:49, mastermindreader wrote:
I would argue that the 95% of "mentalists" you refer to aren't mentalists at all.
[/quote]

:D

Pete
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 04:19PM)
That mentalist Richard Osterlind taught me everything I needed to know about The Linking Rings!

(Let's see who bites :lol: )
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 04:27PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 17:19, Shrubsole wrote:
That mentalist Richard Osterlind taught me everything I needed to know about The Linking Rings!

(Let's see who bites :lol: )
[/quote]

Troublemaker.
Message: Posted by: thedebonair (Jul 6, 2012 04:44PM)
Is it not a sign of a successful performance if people want to know how you do something? If I ever get to that point I'd take it as a huge compliment that folks wanted to know. I'm starting to learn slowly and I take great delight in the fact that I know things and others don't, I wouldn't get offended by it, it makes me smile. I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying that........you lot can be quite scary!

Not watched the DB 'The One Show' thing but I think I'll have to now!
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 04:52PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 17:44, thedebonair wrote:
Is it not a sign of a successful performance if people want to know how you do something? If I ever get to that point I'd take it as a huge compliment that folks wanted to know. I'm starting to learn slowly and I take great delight in the fact that I know things and others don't, I wouldn't get offended by it, it makes me smile. I'll probably get shot down in flames for saying that........you lot can be quite scary!

Not watched the DB 'The One Show' thing but I think I'll have to now!
[/quote]

I think the thinking behind this goes something like:

If you come on stage and say that you are a mind reader and you then read minds, no further explanation should be required if you have done your job properly. However if they still think that you are just someone doing tricks and so ask you how you did that, then you have not done your job properly.

However, the question "How did you do that?" could mean 'How did you read their mind?'
Message: Posted by: thedebonair (Jul 6, 2012 05:14PM)
Shrubsole - Good point but the likes of DB, as others have said, openly admits that he doesn't read minds. I bought a Tour Programme when I went to see him recently and it lists some questions that people have asked him. One question was 'If you could have any super power, what would it be?' DB's answer was 'To read people's minds for real'. So, using DB as an example as that is what the thread is about anyway (!), he's putting it right out there that that's not what's happening, hence there is obviously something else going on. DB doesn't like being referred to as a mentalist. He never uses the word when describing what he does.

I understand why people get annoyed around exposure as it's taking away the whole intrigue of what you guys all do but I personally wouldn't be offended. I just see it as a sign of a job well done.

Just watched the DB clip and immediately said to myself 'how did he do that?!'
Message: Posted by: Kevin Cook (Jul 6, 2012 05:25PM)
Hi Jonty, I have no idea why members here are giving you a hard time.

To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 05:54PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
Hi Jonty, I have no idea why members here are giving you a hard time.

To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
[/quote]

Thank you Kevin. That's what I like, straight to the point without all the typical forum trolling :)
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 06:02PM)
@thedebonair:

Well then as Derren doesn't describe himself as a mentalist then it is OK to ask him how he does that? and I fully expect that he gets asked that many many times a day. (That's him to his face - That is quite different to asking others how he does what he does on here)

That is/was the point. Mentalists usually like not to been seen as 'doing tricks' (Whether they are going out and out as someone with special powers or if they like to be ambiguous about everything) whereas people who say that they are doing tricks will naturally get asked "How they did that?"
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 06:05PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:54, jeggintonfilms wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
Hi Jonty, I have no idea why members here are giving you a hard time.

To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
[/quote]

Thank you Kevin. That's what I like, straight to the point without all the typical forum trolling :)
[/quote]

Trolling? This is not a magical disclosure site! Therefore sorry if you don't like the answer given but there will be no secrets given out here. Not now, not never.
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 6, 2012 06:15PM)
Shrubsole, again, if you bother to take the time to read my posts on the first page where I explain, instead of jumping to conclusions and thinking too much about your next 'witty' reply you'll see I am not trying to fish for secrets, far from it.
Message: Posted by: Phil Ainsworth (Jul 6, 2012 06:55PM)
Worth noting that despite the fact that most of the country seem to be convinced that Derren is some sort of NLP guru... in his own words, he hasn't ever studied it properly, doesn't think much of it and has never claimed to use it within his methods.

In fact, he's stated outright that he DOESN'T use it.

The irony is, the more he says that.. the less people seem to accept it.

Tell you what though, if I wasn't really able to write my thoughts in other people's minds and had to fake it for performances... then using NLP language patterns in my presentation would be a great red herring to disguise my real (sneaky magic trickery) methods... Luckily, I have special powers, so I don't need to stoop to such depths.

On the other issue of publicity and inquisitive questions posted on this forum generated by Derren, Dynamo et al... I genuinely think that most people are asking "how did he to that?" in this sense of "wow, I'd love to have his skills and take over other people's minds and influence my boss/partner/friends" rather than "I want to know the secret to the trick"...

In other words, I believe it comes from a sense of genuine enthusiasm and even a nod towards "self-development", rather than wanting to look behind the curtain and see the true face of Oz...

Just my 2ps worth, anyway :)

Phil Ainsworth
Mind Writer
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 6, 2012 06:59PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 19:15, jeggintonfilms wrote:
Shrubsole, again, if you bother to take the time to read my posts on the first page where I explain, instead of jumping to conclusions and thinking too much about your next 'witty' reply you'll see I am not trying to fish for secrets, far from it.
[/quote]

Turn up, 7 posts to your name and call people out for trolling.

Great start!
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Jul 6, 2012 07:06PM)
Indeed, there is a great deal of advanced psychology going on in this clip.

[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
Hi Jonty, I have no idea why members here are giving you a hard time.

To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 6, 2012 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 19:55, Phil Ainsworth wrote:
I genuinely think that most people are asking "how did he to that?" in this sense of "wow, I'd love to have his skills and take over other people's minds and influence my boss/partner/friends" rather than "I want to know the secret to the trick"...

In other words, I believe it comes from a sense of genuine enthusiasm and even a nod towards "self-development", rather than wanting to look behind the curtain and see the true face of Oz...
[/quote]

You must be from around these parts son. Stick around and you may quickly find you will prove yourself wrong.
Message: Posted by: minty (Jul 6, 2012 07:34PM)
I'm looking forward to seeing Derren perform on the 16th. Even when I know how the 'trick' is done (or at least, how I would go about achieving the effect), it's wonderful to watch his performance. It's a rare opportunity for me to see a performer of his calibre live. Less about the 'tricks' for me, more about the presentation. I can hardly wait.
Message: Posted by: Jon W. (Jul 6, 2012 07:47PM)
Entertaining clip! I wish I could see more performances like the one linked in this thread on television here in the States.
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Jul 7, 2012 02:32AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 19:55, Phil Ainsworth wrote:
I genuinely think that most people are asking "how did he to that?" in this sense of "wow, I'd love to have his skills and take over other people's minds and influence my boss/partner/friends" rather than "I want to know the secret to the trick"...

In other words, I believe it comes from a sense of genuine enthusiasm and even a nod towards "self-development", rather than wanting to look behind the curtain and see the true face of Oz...

Phil Ainsworth
Mind Writer
[/quote]

lol, in which film ? ;-)
Message: Posted by: jeggintonfilms (Jul 7, 2012 10:41AM)
I thought some of you would probably find this video of Derren amusing if you haven't seen it already. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Cc6Bof2_0
Message: Posted by: thedebonair (Jul 7, 2012 11:06AM)
I tried not to laugh but I couldn't help myself!
Message: Posted by: ferrismagic (Jul 8, 2012 03:38AM)
Hi,
This has got nothing to do with what you guys are talking about, but don't you guys think that DB is looking like Jason Statham in the clip of the one show? Just a random thought... 😜
Message: Posted by: merricksforge (Jul 8, 2012 10:07AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:49, mastermindreader wrote:
I would argue that the 95% of "mentalists" you refer to aren't mentalists at all.
[/quote]

I will second that argument.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 8, 2012 10:17AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-07 12:06, thedebonair wrote:
I tried not to laugh but I couldn't help myself!
[/quote]

I guess I'm missing something.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jul 8, 2012 12:46PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
[/quote]

Hi, Kevin.
Thanks for the info!
By the way, are you a certified Practitioner of NLP, a certified Master Practitioner, or perhaps even a certified NLP trainer? Since you know about this I'd like to know where you got your training.

Thanks!
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jul 8, 2012 12:47PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-08 11:07, merricksforge wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:49, mastermindreader wrote:
I would argue that the 95% of "mentalists" you refer to aren't mentalists at all.
[/quote]

I will second that argument.
[/quote]

Sounds like Sturgeon's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jul 8, 2012 01:00PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
Hi Jonty, I have no idea why members here are giving you a hard time.

To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.
[/quote]

Lmfao!

Kieran
Message: Posted by: merricksforge (Jul 8, 2012 01:24PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-08 13:47, dmkraig wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-08 11:07, merricksforge wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 16:49, mastermindreader wrote:
I would argue that the 95% of "mentalists" you refer to aren't mentalists at all.
[/quote]

I will second that argument.
[/quote]

Sounds like Sturgeon's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
[/quote]


Very interesting. I always love tidbits of information like this. Alas, it would appear that when you apply Sturgeon's Law to itself...well, we wake up back where we began.
Message: Posted by: StJohn (Jul 9, 2012 12:03PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-08 11:17, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-07 12:06, thedebonair wrote:
I tried not to laugh but I couldn't help myself!
[/quote]

I guess I'm missing something.
[/quote]

It is quite funny if you know Family Guy.
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 9, 2012 12:40PM)
I would consider myself quite well read on Mentalism and Magic and I have no clue how he done it.
Message: Posted by: SubconsciousSymbols (Jul 9, 2012 04:41PM)
You must think sideways and somewhat logically.

There is not an ice cube's chance in hell that he 'influenced' the guy. Derren is a MAGICIAN, as he keeps on telling people, and therefore uses devious methods.

Think Max Malini... cryptic I know but enough to get the gears turning.

Aw
Message: Posted by: DT3 (Jul 9, 2012 10:43PM)
Red is the new Green!
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 10, 2012 10:09AM)
Eh! You mean jealousy?
Message: Posted by: thecharlatan (Jul 10, 2012 01:40PM)
It seems like there is no concensus??
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 10, 2012 01:47PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-10 14:40, thecharlatan wrote:
It seems like there is no concensus??
[/quote]

Actually there are two. There is one consensus from the performing mentalists and another from everyone else. (But you do need to read between the lines of the mentalists' posts to understand the psychology they are using here. :eek:)
Message: Posted by: SubconsciousSymbols (Jul 10, 2012 01:59PM)
*Pre-Show + Excellent framing + Perfect presentation.

Move on with your lives and aspire to create your own effects which will have others asking the same questions.

That is all.

Aw
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Jul 11, 2012 12:17AM)
On 2012-07-06 18:25, Kevin Cook wrote:
To answer your question, Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter. Listen carefully to his language patterns and all will be revealed.

DMKraig replied:
Hi, Kevin.
Thanks for the info!
By the way, are you a certified Practitioner of NLP, a certified Master Practitioner, or perhaps even a certified NLP trainer? Since you know about this I'd like to know where you got your training.

Thanks!


You appear to know so much about NLP. You state, without question, that "Derren is using an advanced NLP technique to influence the presenter." So I ask again, "are you a certified Practitioner of NLP, a certified Master Practitioner, or perhaps even a certified NLP trainer? Since you know about this I'd like to know where you got your training."
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Jul 11, 2012 12:22AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-10 14:59, SubconsciousSymbols wrote:
*Pre-Show + Excellent framing + Perfect presentation.

Move on with your lives and aspire to create your own effects which will have others asking the same questions.

That is all.

Aw


[/quote]

Post of the year. :kewl:
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 11, 2012 12:25AM)
How can NLP produce this effect, seriously? NLP is a set of techniques for change basically. Unless Derren is using some form of advanced Milton Model language patterns etc, NLP has nothing to do with this type of effect. Seriously people, I mean some of the techniques in NLP can be useful like anchoring, eye cues, helping get over stage freight etc bu get over the NLP nonsense when it comes to performing Mentalism!
Message: Posted by: gabelson (Jul 11, 2012 01:28AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 13:29, mastermindreader wrote:

There's nothing wrong with any persona or back story a mentalist chooses to use. And, if you think about it, there is NOTHING false about the mind reading claim. You think of something and, one way or the other, I tell you what you're thinking. There's no false claim. I don't make any claim as to HOW I do it, I just do it.

[/quote]

Absolutely brilliant, Bob. I hope all the hand-wringers here who feel disclaimers are a moral imperative read your post.
Message: Posted by: Al Desmond (Jul 11, 2012 09:24AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 10:40, Simon (Ted) Edwards wrote:
Interviewer:

How much is magic and how much is power of the mind?

Derren Brown:

Well it's all sort of one and the same thing, really. I used to say at the start of the shows, which is still true, that when I'm doing that kind of stuff that it's magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.

Which basically means that some of it's real kind of mind skills and hypnosis and suggestion. Some of it's more like a conjurer. More like sort of sleight-of-hand sort of magic and the fun, hopefully, is where you think one ends and the other... starts.

T.
[/quote]

Back in the 80's in Texas, I was working with an agency that booked "Telephone Shows." A number of magicians/mentalist from the Dallas area would be taking these shows into small communities scattered around Texas. I was the MC of the show, and I did two turns, one mentalism the other an challenge 100 foot rope escape. When it came to the mentalism, I use a disclaimer up front, explaining that there is an explanation for everything I'm doing, and that with enough practice, they could do it too. And I finished with a statement about the primary reason for tonight's demonstration is for all of us to have a little fun.

Why the disclaimer? Because you'll find in those small communities a lot of Southern Baptists and other evangelical folks who could enjoy a magic show, but mind reading came too close to looking like something evil, in league with the devil so to speak. Doing shows in large cities, like Dallas or Houston, your chances are greater that the audience would be more responsive to your performance, there for I would drop the disclaimer.

Point being made. I see nothing wrong with adjusting and playing for the sort of audience you are going to encounter. Remember... you're the employee, not the employer. Your audience is the employer and your job one is to satisfy them, not yourself. A good performer is one who can think on their feet and be acutely aware of how their material is playing, how it's being received. You may be the best mentalist in the world, but if you are stiff and aloof, not taking your audience into consideration, your nothing more than a automaton, wasting yours and the audiences time.
Message: Posted by: Al Desmond (Jul 11, 2012 09:26AM)
Oops... I just noticed my signature. It's rather old. That gives you an idea how long it's been since I posted on the Café. I'll have to change that.
Message: Posted by: StJohn (Jul 11, 2012 10:02AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 13:25, David Numen wrote:
Thing is, although Derren puts out this somewhat all-encompassing disclaimer, many laypeople often attribute the very powers he himself would outright deny having.
[/quote]

I would not be surprised if that is part of his misdirection :)
Like saying - look over here! look over here!
He says I use a mix of 'this' and 'that' and 'that' and 'that'.
Everyone hears 'that' and 'that' and so on and forgets he also said 'this'. 'This' is magic of course.
Message: Posted by: Phil Ainsworth (Jul 11, 2012 11:44AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-11 01:22, Decomposed wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-10 14:59, SubconsciousSymbols wrote:
*Pre-Show + Excellent framing + Perfect presentation.

Move on with your lives and aspire to create your own effects which will have others asking the same questions.

That is all.

Aw


[/quote]

Post of the year. :kewl:
[/quote]

I bleedin' well second that. Good work, sir!
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 11, 2012 12:15PM)
While that is almost certainly the case, there is no doubt merit in asking what sort of pre-show one would use to achieve the same or similar effect.

There's isn't very much quality material written on the nuts and bolds of pre-show work.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 11, 2012 12:31PM)
That's not true, you just have to know where to look.
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 11, 2012 12:49PM)
Maybe "nuts and bolts" wasn't the correct phrase. What I mean is that while the principles are quite well laid down in the literature, most of it is quite basic in nature and very little of it deals with the sort of TV 'guest spot' performances that Derren Brown performs so well in. In those situations, especially situations where there might be multiple presenters you have to be on your top game. A lot could be said about such performances, but I've not seen much written in any book, dvd or semi-public forum.

I kind of think I would have heard about it if it had. But I'm happy to be surprised ;)
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Jul 11, 2012 03:00PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-06 08:48, jeggintonfilms wrote:
Hello members

I've recently gained an interest in mentalism but have been performing close-up for a number of years.

I saw Derren Browns recent appearance on the UK talk show 'The One Show' and was intrigued by the 'trick' he performed. That brings me to, is this actually a 'trick' or is he using
some sort of genuine psycological force such as using certain gestures to influence the host?

Here is the link to the clip: https://vimeo.com/45306701

Thanks in advance

Jonty
[/quote]

It's Magic... :ohyes:
Message: Posted by: merricksforge (Jul 11, 2012 07:48PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-11 13:49, DickDaze wrote:
Maybe "nuts and bolts" wasn't the correct phrase. What I mean is that while the principles are quite well laid down in the literature, most of it is quite basic in nature and very little of it deals with the sort of TV 'guest spot' performances that Derren Brown performs so well in. In those situations, especially situations where there might be multiple presenters you have to be on your top game. A lot could be said about such performances, but I've not seen much written in any book, dvd or semi-public forum.

I kind of think I would have heard about it if it had. But I'm happy to be surprised ;)
[/quote]


lol, sounds like a russian doll that's gone fishing.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Jul 11, 2012 08:15PM)
I'm constantly amazed by the number of people here who are so hasty to show how 'knowledgeable' they are, they happily speculate about methods openly with new members and in public, even completely missing when others have hinted that to do so wouldn't be wise.
Message: Posted by: merricksforge (Jul 11, 2012 09:37PM)
...methods for what?
Message: Posted by: Peter_turner (Jul 11, 2012 11:56PM)
Asher you are a gem haha

Pete x
Message: Posted by: Simon (Ted) Edwards (Jul 12, 2012 01:56AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-11 21:15, quicknotist wrote:
I'm constantly amazed by the number of people here who are so hasty to show how 'knowledgeable' they are, they happily speculate about methods openly with new members and in public, even completely missing when others have hinted that to do so wouldn't be wise.
[/quote]
Quite. Unbelievable really.
T.
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (Jul 12, 2012 02:35AM)
[quote]NLP is a set of techniques for change basically.[/quote]

Actually NLP is a set of techniques for communication. Some of the techniques go for more specificity and some go for the opposite.

In the current case I would go with what Derren has published regarding his use of the techniques.
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Jul 12, 2012 03:12AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-11 13:49, DickDaze wrote:
I kind of think I would have heard about it if it had. But I'm happy to be surprised ;)
[/quote]

Don't worry, after read you posts on this topic nobody want to surprise you...
Great honours are great burdens.
Message: Posted by: Dr Weevil (Jul 12, 2012 06:44AM)
It's a great clip, with some lovely subtleties in the patter. For me personally, it seems more useful to consider the presentation than the method.
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 12, 2012 07:15AM)
So its ok to dissect the subtleties and patter but not the mechanics of the method?
Message: Posted by: Simon (Ted) Edwards (Jul 12, 2012 09:38AM)
Dick,
honest question - are you picking fights or trying to contribute to the discussion?
T.
Message: Posted by: Dr Weevil (Jul 12, 2012 10:05AM)
Dick,
I thought I had been very careful not to 'dissect' anything: I enjoyed the clip and wanted to add my $0.02 about the general aspect of it I found the most interesting. It's certainly not my intention to turn up here and offend people on day 1!
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 12, 2012 10:06AM)
Well to be honest, my last comment was more of a 'fight picker' than a contribution to the discussion.

I made a pretty sincere post that there is little quality material that deals with pre-show in detail which was rubbished by parmenion, then re-rubbished when I clarified - albeit arrogantly. I have no idea what merricksforge is talking about, but I guess its non-complimentary. I don't really care, but its hard to have an honest discussion in such circumstances without sounding arrogant. If you've been involved in mentalism for a long time, always kept and eye out for publications involving or dedicated to PS and having rarely come across truly quality/detailed material well suited to TV ps work. Its all very well when you are on stage - you are in charge. When you are a guest, the balance of power changes somewhat.

Dr Weevil's post indicates that he's read the forum for long enough to make the sort of noises that he thinks other mentalists might like to hear. There is a legitimate question about why it would be ok to discuss a presentation and not a method, but since the likely method is PS then you can't even have a useful discussion about the "lovely subtleties in the patter" without hypothesising about the process of the PS.

As for the discussion, I don't think there is any discussion to be had here - which is why other than repeating the term PS, I've been silent on the actual video.
Message: Posted by: Dr Weevil (Jul 12, 2012 10:30AM)
Also, please don't read my post as meaning 'let's start a discussion about the presentation': I do think that would be just as inappropriate as discussing method. That's why I kept my comment short and vague.
Message: Posted by: Atticus R. Cane (Jul 12, 2012 10:35AM)
So we can't talk about the performance and we can't talk about the presentation then why the hell does this thread have four pages dedicated to it?

Just let the ***ed thing die.
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 12, 2012 11:14AM)
So how'd he do it then?
Message: Posted by: thedebonair (Jul 12, 2012 03:17PM)
Not directly linked to the original post but kind of relevant ........Derren today supported the following experiment, saying it was 'much needed'...........

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040259
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 12, 2012 03:25PM)
Oh boy...
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 12, 2012 04:42PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-12 08:15, DickDaze wrote:
So its ok to dissect the subtleties and patter but not the mechanics of the method?
[/quote]

Well the "mechanics of the method" is the secret and we don't discuss those here ever.
The patter and performance are out there in the open and so I see no reason why some can't talk about the "subtleties and patter" of the performance.

This is not a disclosure site and so the methods of the secret will never be discussed here.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 12, 2012 05:14PM)
With greatest respect Shrub this is an open forum and it is exposure even if you don't give the actual mechanics your telling people that its not what Derren suggests it is. Which is a HUGE part of the effect.

Im not getting at you its just the way it is.
Message: Posted by: John Raff M (Jul 12, 2012 05:22PM)
God I love this thread........................
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 12, 2012 05:29PM)
Am I asking for anything to be disclosed? No.

I maintain that you can't have a proper discussion of a presentation (especially 'subtelties') of a PS effect without discussing potential methods. Incidentally, I'm not asking for this to happen in this thread either. I just made the point that there is little quality discussion of the topic in the literature.

This was said earlier:
[quote]Move on with your lives and aspire to create your own effects which will have others asking the same questions. [/quote]

How would I do it if I was having a TV guest spot? I'd do some PS and then work that into a filmed spot. That doesn't really add much though does it?

Its like seeing a magician make a coin dissapear. How would I do that? I'd work on my sleight of hand.

Just like there are infinite varieties of sleight of hand routines, there are a thousand and one ways one might use PS in a given effect and a thousand and one broad presentations each could be applied to.

Who cares what DB actually used? Not me. If someone told me the method, I would find it interesting - simply because DB is someone who has done a lot of TV guest spots - but the importance of knowing the specific method isn't important. I'd probably have my own reasons for not doing it the same way, even if I had no gripes about 'copying'. Rather the different types of PS that could have been used have varying degrees of risk and elegance.

We've all seen PS fail. You can probably also tell when the presenter plays along, but notices the discrepency. Some PS methods are more convoluted than others. Some can be done under the noses of other presenters/crew, others can't. What about layering PS with other techniques to tackle the problems mentioned above? What about just being bold? What justifications to use for the PS procedure you settle upon? How do PS considerations change when the performance venue is your stage show, your own TV show, your appearence as a guest on the TV/radio?

So many questions, and I'm sure many here can think of more considerations. Sadly with a PS effect, the PS mechanics is central to nearly all of them.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 12, 2012 05:59PM)
The point is that we shouldn't even be discussing PS in a public forum. The full name for the technique has already been spelled out a few times in this thread and it doesn't exactly take a genius to get the general idea of what is being discussed.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 12, 2012 06:24PM)
I've reported a couple of threads but they've not been removed unfortunately..

this is, afterall, another person's work...so any attempts at describing the "how" is a poor show as far as I'm concerned...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 12, 2012 06:49PM)
Yes, it is.
Message: Posted by: Nash (Jul 12, 2012 07:04PM)
So I skipped through the first 3 pages of this thread and want to say that..
I ALSO had apple just like the female host .. how many of you got apple?
Message: Posted by: Shrubsole (Jul 12, 2012 08:30PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-12 18:14, mindpunisher wrote:
With greatest respect Shrub this is an open forum and it is exposure even if you don't give the actual mechanics your telling people that its not what Derren suggests it is. Which is a HUGE part of the effect.

Im not getting at you its just the way it is.
[/quote]

Yes, good point well made.

Although I was generalising about what we do here or in fact don't do here, but anything that points to the secret or helps do so, is not on.
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 13, 2012 12:15AM)
How'd he do it then?
Message: Posted by: Lost in Thought (Jul 13, 2012 02:20AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 01:15, boydy wrote:
How'd he do it then?
[/quote]

I think Derren might be in on it.
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 13, 2012 07:05AM)
[quote]How'd he do it then?[/quote]
This must sound a lot funnier in your head than it does when you actually post it.
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jul 13, 2012 07:33AM)
I think it sounds funny....... :D

kieran
Message: Posted by: Peter_turner (Jul 13, 2012 07:52AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 08:33, magicman29 wrote:
I think it sounds funny....... :D

kieran
[/quote]

Your Irish everything sounds funny to you ;)

Pete x
Message: Posted by: SubconsciousSymbols (Jul 13, 2012 08:05AM)
Ha ha ha, just another thread with people getting all holier-than-thou.

If my post was being referred to as exposure (a post which was voted 'best post of the year' and seconded) then get over yourselves, seriously.
I was attempting to put an end to this feeble group of thinkers who think that Derren actually can read minds. This ridiculous view clouds their thinking and effectively disables their creative capacity.

Lets all just have a beer and an open discussion about this wonderful art. Oh wait that's tomorrow, where some of us are meeting up in REAL-LIFE.
Some of you may be aware of this 'real-life' concept although I imagine those of you who 'flame' the hardest on this forum have never been a productive part in a proper discussion...

That is all (again)

Aw
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Jul 13, 2012 08:40AM)
I was thinking Apple! The method is quite obvious.

Regards

Mark
Message: Posted by: MatCult (Jul 13, 2012 09:19AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 09:40, Mark Timon wrote:
I was thinking Apple! The method is quite obvious.

Regards

Mark
[/quote]

Yeah, that's 'cause Steve Jobs used advanced NLP from beyond the grave to plant that idea in your feeble human mind. Derren is simply the medium.

Easy.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 10:55AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 09:05, SubconsciousSymbols wrote:
Ha ha ha, just another thread with people getting all holier-than-thou.

If my post was being referred to as exposure (a post which was voted 'best post of the year' and seconded) then get over yourselves, seriously.
I was attempting to put an end to this feeble group of thinkers who think that Derren actually can read minds. This ridiculous view clouds their thinking and effectively disables their creative capacity.

Lets all just have a beer and an open discussion about this wonderful art. Oh wait that's tomorrow, where some of us are meeting up in REAL-LIFE.
Some of you may be aware of this 'real-life' concept although I imagine those of you who 'flame' the hardest on this forum have never been a productive part in a proper discussion...

That is all (again)

Aw
[/quote]

Sorry if you think my concerns over the trivialization of the art and the open reference to methods on a public forum are "holier than thou."

Also sorry never to have never been a productive part of a proper discussion. Maybe I need to understand more about how mentalism works in "real life."

Thanks for putting me back in line and for the helpful tips.
Message: Posted by: SubconsciousSymbols (Jul 13, 2012 11:36AM)
No comment.

Aw
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 13, 2012 11:43AM)
Pretty rude SubCon... and revealing methods in an open forum ain't on...and I'll tell you the same tomorrow!
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Jul 13, 2012 11:48AM)
On 2012-07-13 10:19, MatCult wrote:

[/quote]

Yeah, that's 'cause Steve Jobs used advanced NLP from beyond the grave to plant that idea in your feeble human mind. Derren is simply the medium.

Easy.
[/quote]

It's the first time ever that someone in the magic Café while posting had a riot of neurons in his brain at the same time!! The people from American Scientist magazine will contact you shortly.

Take care and get well soon.
Message: Posted by: Paul Shirley (Jul 13, 2012 11:58AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-12 18:59, mastermindreader wrote:
The point is that we shouldn't even be discussing PS in a public forum.
[/quote]

Thank you Bob. And yes... if you MUST discuss me, I would prefer it happen in 'Inner Thoughts'. Thank you. :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 13, 2012 12:03PM)
I dread to think what your inner thoughts are mate...
Message: Posted by: SubconsciousSymbols (Jul 13, 2012 12:37PM)
I don't think I was rude to anyone in particular IAIN, some just choose to take it that way.

You have met me in person and so are better placed to make a judgement on me than most and if you found my post to be rude then I will acknowledge that and take it on board.

I must add though that I do not consider my post to be outright exposure. I was merely trying to point people in the right direction, towards achieving their OWN effects.

In hindsight perhaps dropping the PS word was a bit much, although I still think that someone would have to be pretty determined to get to the solution from my words alone. Even worse trivialization and exposure occurs here on a daily basis.

Look forward to seeing you again tomorrow and I hope we can share more pleasant conversation, the likes of which was had last time.

Aw
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 13, 2012 12:48PM)
Imagine if you had a show, or were on the telly...you did your thing...

someone pops on here and goes "oh did you see him? it was *this* and *this* mixed with *that*..." - I personally would think - "blimey, and he's supposed to on MY side cos he loves this thing we do? imagine what people must do to one another when they hate each other!"...

its just a forum...no need to get so het up over someone else's opinion...and there's nothing to prove either...

the only thing to be mindful of is, we should always take care of, and respect the methods and techniques we may or may not employ...

I mean, I'm ok - I fell of the same ladder that peter hurkos did so my psychic powers are well potent...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 01:07PM)
Here's the thing. A guy performs a great effect on TV. Somebody comes on the board and asks how he did it. No one answers directly BUT someone says, "It's all P** S**."

The casual surfer, who also loved the show and wonders how the effect was done, Googles the performer's name and finds this thread.

He reads the comments. "Hmm," he thinks. "P** S***. I get it! It's all a setup! What BS!"

Doesn't matter if the guy's right or not or if he understands what PS really is. He thinks he's got it all figured out and his opinion of the performer and his skills has been diminished accordingly.

And so has the art of mentalism.

If that's "holier than thou" you may feel free to call me Saint Bob. :eek:
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 13, 2012 02:33PM)
Beautifully stated, I couldn't agree more. I think we all need to reminded of this once in a while.
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Jul 13, 2012 03:25PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 15:33, Mindpro wrote:
Beautifully stated, I couldn't agree more. I think we all need to reminded of this once in a while.
[/quote]

Maybe I'm crazy but whats the difference between We all that know what PS is and guy googling the web to find it out? or are we in the know a selective club of PS knowers?

Regards
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 03:30PM)
Mark-

You kind of missed my point. In my example, the guy isn't googling the web to find out what PS is. He's googling because he saw a guy do something on TV, typed his name into the search engine and was directed here.

But, as I've said earlier, this is one of the reasons that I have decided to no longer post anything involving substantive methods anywhere on the Café.
Message: Posted by: Mark Timon (Jul 13, 2012 03:44PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-13 16:30, mastermindreader wrote:
Mark-

You kind of missed my point. In my example, the guy isn't googling the web to find out what PS is. He's googling because he saw a guy do something on TV, typed his name into the search engine and was directed here.

But, as I've said earlier, this is one of the reasons that I have decided to no longer post anything involving substantive methods anywhere on the Café.
[/quote]

I respect Mr Cassidy till the end of the Universe, though I think that you overvalue the damage that internet can cause to a such great performer and it's totally impossible to measure. I wish you were my mentor!! but I'm too old now, I think...

Regards
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 03:57PM)
Mark-

It's not the damage the Internet can do to great performers like Derren. It's the damage by trivialization that it does to mentalism as a whole.

Thanks for your kind comments.

Best-

Bob
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 13, 2012 04:27PM)
There's a certain inevitability to this trivialization. Derren Brown does a performance, people are naturally curious. They go online, find the magic Café. Ask a question. Get mocked or told that they this isn't a site for revealing secrets. Someone thinks the poster is getting an overly hard time and throws them a bone. That somone gets jumped on and there ensues a conversation just like this current one about the justified limits of public and semi-public discussion - which serve only to clarify the original 'bone' that was thrown.

When, as in this case - someone with experience in magic asks the elementary question that he did, it seems only fair to give him a nudge in the right direction.

Its all very well saying that we're supposed to all be on the same side; or that wont post anything substantive - but to newbies and many intermediates that is actually a counter productive approach in my view.

Other than vague notions of pushing the art forward, what has Derren Brown done for the average newbie or intermediate mentalist? When was the last time they had a chat with him and got some benifit from being on the same 'side'? It seems you are asking people to 'help' mentalism/professionals in exchange for nothing. People that are looking for broad methods are going to find them. If they don't get an answer, they'll ask again, or google some more. That's not an ideal situation - but that IS the situation. The internet IS here and so is the magic Café and there will never be an end to people being amazed and turning to the internet to learn how it happened.

So the question is. Do you stonewall people and moan (and in the process drag out a discussion that exposes even more); or do you engage them in a spirit of co-operation where they feel included from the start. I know that if I'd come here with a background in magic and asked a question - do I study NLP stuff or look into conjuring and got the run around, I'd think you were a bunch of jerks who might know more than me - but who certainly aren't on my 'side'.
Message: Posted by: John Raff M (Jul 13, 2012 04:53PM)
Forgive me in advance for this controversial post.
Am I the only one who thinks that threads like this one and this one http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=468443&forum=82&77 go nowhere? "How did Derren do this?" "How did Derren do that?" People get offended. They fight. They get hurt. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE lets leave it and be friends again.

John.

ps. For the record I think Derrens terrific and the really great thing about the clip is his casual almost imromptu syle.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 05:02PM)
Funny, isn't it, how many of us managed to learn the ropes of mentalism in the days before the instant gratification of the Internet? It required much more effort and dedication and, hence, instilled a great deal of respect for the art.

Suggesting that new posters first introduce themselves (to establish exactly what kind of background they have in magic or mentalism), asking that they read the sticky post at the top of the forum and then advising them that methods aren't discussed in the public areas of the forum, is hardly an indication that we are a bunch of jerks.

[quote]It seems you are asking people to 'help' mentalism/professionals in exchange for nothing.[/quote]

Really? In exchange for nothing? Have they read my "39 steps" which I've provided free in the sticky topic? Have they read any of my books or Derren's or Richard's (or the many other works that are readily available to anyone who has a sincere interest in the art)?

Sorry you feel we've contributed nothing to newcomers. Perhaps we shouldn't have bothered.
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 13, 2012 05:13PM)
I'm not saying you are a jerk, nor that you've not/don't contribute anything to newcomers. Rather, I can understand from the pov of a newbie that they might feel that way.

Certainly in the context of the original poster who was asking a very basic question - should he take path a, or should take path b - the response that he got wasn't in my view deserving - and certainly (5 pages later) not effective in the non-trivialization of the art.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2012 05:19PM)
It's not the original poster's question that I was objecting to. It was about the open references to method that followed.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 13, 2012 05:32PM)
Nothing wrong in asking questions, however if you ask for help, I think we have to listen to the answers properly...people like bob are sharing their experience and knowledge to us louts (for free, because they want to help)...so the very least we can do is to accept it when those answers are somewhat "hard"...and by hard I mean it being something we might not want to hear or do...like "study more..." (for example)...

I have learned a great deal from this place, from all kinds of people in a myriad of ways...its all about respecting the answers we get, respecting the rules and terms of engagement, and working within the framework of this forum...

we should all be INVESTING in mentalism...not financially, but in making sure it is fit and healthy as an artform...which means we have to take care of it...

it is a balancing act between encouragement and safeguarding secrets...sometimes it goes wrong...we're human...

I've found if you are polite, thank people for their time if you've asked a question and got a response, and if new, LISTEN to the requests made by other members...listen to bob, its not out of ego he says something, (dont wanna speak for you bob!) but its out of love of mentalism - he says it out of love for mentalism...

forums are strange places, we all get things wrong at times - one of my major bugbears is the spoonfeeding of links (got a link for that? where do I get so-and-so?) whenever I see that, I think "oh? is it hard to find? lets see...", then I find it via google straight away with basic, common sense search terms...ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! see? pointless rage...

if you think a thread is pointless, ignore it...move on...

buy books, read, make notes, contemplate...go for a walk, think, do other stuff too, watch movies, comedians, absorb...experiment and test ideas out...perform as best you can...rinse, repeat, learn, ask for help, thank them, if you're lucky you end up gaining friends along the way...share with those you trust, invest time and energy into the things you love...rinse, repeat, grow...

</rant>
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 14, 2012 03:19AM)
Can't wait for Derrens ultimate book. It will go down in history like Berglas's and probably cost $34 million on the after market.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 14, 2012 03:44AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-14 04:19, boydy wrote:
Can't wait for Derrens ultimate book. It will go down in history like Berglas's and probably cost $34 million on the after market.
[/quote]

I doubt he'd do one...he'll dissapear like Canasta did and just paint...or become a self-help style guru...
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Jul 14, 2012 05:32AM)
He'll doesn't need to write one, everything he does is already explain on the Café! lol
"Nitchevo" sign of time surely...
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 14, 2012 06:18AM)
That he should do. He is an extremely talented painter from what I have seen.
Message: Posted by: DickDaze (Jul 14, 2012 07:42AM)
He can paint. I'm not sure I'd say he was "extremely talented" at it though.
Message: Posted by: boydy (Jul 14, 2012 11:24AM)
I can't paint so to me he is.
Message: Posted by: kazuba6511 (Jul 14, 2012 08:57PM)
NLP is a psuedo science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming I am very familiar with it. It has nothing to do with mentalism. Derren Brown uses it as a buzz word. The unknowing public eats it up. It gives them an explanation. As a magician, mentalist, showman and a hypnotist Derren Brown is outstanding.
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Jul 15, 2012 03:37AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-14 21:57, kazuba6511 wrote:
NLP is a psuedo science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming I am very familiar with it. It has nothing to do with mentalism. Derren Brown uses it as a buzz word. The unknowing public eats it up. It gives them an explanation. As a magician, mentalist, showman and a hypnotist Derren Brown is outstanding.
[/quote]
Thanks a lot for you input!
We were waiting for you for a decade!
Glad at least a real professionnal and specialist of all things of the universe is among us and enligtheen us with his vast knowledge.
Alleiula!
Message: Posted by: keeblem (Jul 16, 2012 01:04AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-15 04:37, parmenion wrote:
[quote]
On 2012-07-14 21:57, kazuba6511 wrote:
NLP is a psuedo science. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming I am very familiar with it. It has nothing to do with mentalism. Derren Brown uses it as a buzz word. The unknowing public eats it up. It gives them an explanation. As a magician, mentalist, showman and a hypnotist Derren Brown is outstanding.
[/quote]
Thanks a lot for you input!
We were waiting for you for a decade!
Glad at least a real professionnal and specialist of all things of the universe is among us and enligtheen us with his vast knowledge.
Alleiula!
[/quote]

That was extremely unfair. Kazuba was merely expressing an opinion - something were all entitled to do without being ridiculed.

I was trying to restrain from commenting on this thread. The last time I expressed an opinion at "penny" I was shot down and also accused of being I pirater! Some of you guys definitely have a problem and need to lighten up somewhat. (just an opinion! :) )

I have no idea how Derren did this, but the only thing I would say is that he's not going to go on national television and perform something that is not 100% sure fire going to work.

But then again - what do I know! I'm sure there people out there that can't wait to inform me that I don't know a lot!

Good thoughts to all!

Mark
Message: Posted by: keeblem (Jul 16, 2012 01:19AM)
On another note I found it quite funny that the lady presenter said, "You're going to show us a TRICK". Doesn't she realize that Derren can read minds! :)

Mark
Message: Posted by: Olympic Adam (Jul 16, 2012 12:03PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-16 02:19, keeblem wrote:
On another note I found it quite funny that the lady presenter said, "You're going to show us a TRICK". Doesn't she realize that Derren can read minds! :)

Mark
[/quote]

she's an idiot, I would avoid her at all costs if I was performing there, Matt seemed genuinely interested and to be enjoying it
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jul 16, 2012 02:38PM)
She just seemed, "normal" perhaps a bit....ditsy, but an idiot?

Billy
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jul 16, 2012 02:41PM)
She just seemed, "normal" perhaps a bit....ditsy, but an idiot?

Billy
Message: Posted by: Olympic Adam (Jul 16, 2012 02:59PM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-16 15:41, Billy-one wrote:
She just seemed, "normal" perhaps a bit....ditsy, but an idiot?

Billy
[/quote]

it's perhaps a biased opinion, she is on a television in my house nearly every night for some reason, the more I watch her the less I think of her, not based solely on the Derren Brown section

she probably would have just drawn a big picture of her own face

the more I watch Matt Baker the more I like him though, maybe it's a comparison thing
Message: Posted by: Billy-one (Jul 16, 2012 03:05PM)
Lol,

Ok, I know the feeling.....it was my first time seeing her, as I don't get that kind of tv here in the states.

Billy
Message: Posted by: Andrew Sway (Aug 23, 2013 03:49PM)
Some times great minds maybe thinks alike ;)
Message: Posted by: vinh.giang (Aug 24, 2013 10:41PM)
Ah Derren what an inspiration! I love how he mixes everything together and just misdirects everyone! Thanks for sharing that video mate!
Message: Posted by: minty (Aug 26, 2013 03:36AM)
[quote]
On 2012-07-16 02:04, keeblem wrote:
I have no idea how Derren did this, but the only thing I would say is that he's not going to go on national television and perform something that is not 100% sure fire."
[/quote]

Yes he does. Yes he has. The way he recovers is often beautiful to watch.