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Topic: 21st Century Goth?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 5, 2003 03:14PM)
This is about re-imagining the goth personae to become congruent with our environment. What we have now (IMHO) is both anachronistic and nostalgic reflecting not choices but ignorance of many modern resources. In their time these folks were early adopters. One made the papers by having a PINK vest made and wearing it to the theater. That was the hight of shock 'couture' back in 1780. Let's imagine what these folks might look like and do today...

They may have computers composing chants, and focus by the light of the Plasma screen.

What does a 21st Century Goth wear? How much of the techno language might they use? Would they speak of spells or code? Would a charm now be a hack?

Why wear a cloak when you can carry your works on a few home burned CDs or DVDs?

Instead of makeup like the folks in the 17-1800s wore between baths... perhaps sunscreen to prevent sunburn and cancer?

Perhaps the PRADA tag is the new membership sign?

What are your thoughts on bringing the sterotype 18th-19th century character into the 21st century?
Message: Posted by: cfrye (Nov 5, 2003 03:16PM)
If you're near a gaming store, you could look through the Shadowrun game sourcebooks for one rendition of what you might call "aggressive urban goth".
Message: Posted by: WR (Nov 5, 2003 03:53PM)
Wasn't that a Doors song.."She's a 20th Century Goth". Sorrry I could not resist.
WR :wow:
Message: Posted by: the levitator (Nov 5, 2003 06:53PM)
OMG, I caught a Shadowrun reference? I AM a geek! I really miss playing that game!
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Nov 5, 2003 09:01PM)
Well, this is an area to explore the "Goth-Wow!" responses of your audiences! Couldn't resist.

True Goths would ALWAYS be armed. Today, that could mean a quick wit, razor keen irony and a T-3 connection to the net!

Frankly, as this is becoming more and more mainstream, why not go the OPPOSITE direction and do the 1950's Man In The Gray Flannel Suit route, instead?

Goths aren't scary. IRS auditors are scary. NSA investigators are scary. SWAT Teams are scary.

Not a bunch of people in white face makeup wearing clothes reminiscent of bad vampire movies and the Matrix.

They're just conformist to the youth pseudo-counter culture.

Be DIFFERENT! Every young magician I see these days wants to be Chris Angel. Do something different instead! Something weird, strange and off beat.

Zoot suits and spats come to mind. Flappers and sharkskin suits glimmer in the background. Maybe even formal Scots kilts (modern) or a 3 piece business suit, a toga or an Addidas "Bruce Lee" running suit.

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: restlessplots (Nov 5, 2003 09:56PM)
And I thougth I was the only one who still played
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Nov 5, 2003 09:58PM)
You guys are talking about Goths as if they don't exist today. My local coffee shop is packed with teenagers in black lipstick.
Message: Posted by: El_Lamo (Nov 5, 2003 10:15PM)

I imagine they make great coffee too.

Cheers - El Lamo
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 5, 2003 10:33PM)
Firedice writes: "My local coffee shop is packed with teenagers in black lipstick."

I think that's a big part of the problem: Everyone wants to "non-conform" by conforming.

Just remember: When everybody is somebody, then nobody is anybody!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 5, 2003 10:42PM)
Back in the early punk days, I went to the dark suit. Now wondering how the cutting edge of wicca and urban intensity that was goth might move ahead in character.

The black lipstick and white face paint is all part of that 17-18 century hygiene thing. Anyway...Frilly shirts are for mall goths :) And black lipstick is a safe thing these days. as is the one black fingernail. That was hip in the 80s. Today... looking for clues.
Message: Posted by: sludge (Nov 6, 2003 05:37AM)
Transdermal implants anyone?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 6, 2003 09:28AM)
Haven't heard of transdermal implants. Those words conjure some interesting images for me. Is this like having an IR or printer port socket installed in your neck?
Message: Posted by: sludge (Nov 6, 2003 09:49AM)
I was referring to very extreme body modification techniques, like having horns implanted or 3d shapes placed under the skin etc. Basically taking the piercing/jewellery fashions alot further.
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Nov 6, 2003 10:30AM)
Sludge, agreed. The newer extreme body modifications are wwhat seems to me pushing the limits today. Implants, scarification, extreme piercing, facial tattoos, and even permanent dental work so people can have fangs.

I know I'm getting old when I start shaking my head at kids. But I grew up in the punk scene, and we all thought we were so original. Yet, all we were really doing was trying to look exactly like eachother. So there we were, with bright green liberty spike mohawks and looking at people and yelling, "What are you lookin' at!?"
Message: Posted by: Florian Rago (Nov 6, 2003 10:41AM)
I'm a Goth :bat: and it depends what type of gothic persona you want to exude. Young "mosher" goths were hoodies of their favourite bands or with cool looking symbols. they were bracelets called shg bands which are just black rubber rings and some wear spiked bracelets (like me). If you want to be a matrix style goth then just copy what they wear, including some chunky silver rings with skuill engravings.

In conclusion I think that the persona you are thinking of is a mixture of the mosher (criss angel style) with the matrix (tru goth style) may I suggest for coolness a type of shirt that I know which is black and shortsleeved and instead of sleeves you have rubber netting along with a few bracelet spikes and black trousers with a chain you should start looking mean. :evilgrin:
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Nov 6, 2003 03:24PM)
And look like everyone else.

Sorry, but it's STILL conformity.

Do something DIFFERENT instead.

Watch the reactions. They can be really FUN!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: Reis O'Brien (Nov 7, 2003 09:49PM)
Hear hear Mr. Darrow!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 7, 2003 09:57PM)
Could someone help this by stating the ideals and motivations that define Goth?
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Nov 8, 2003 09:11AM)
On 2003-11-07 22:57, JonTown wrote:
Could someone help this by stating the ideals and motivations that define Goth?

In your opening statement for the thread, I thought you already did that somewhat, in that you characterized Goths as being, in their original incarnation, those rebellious enough to wear the odd-colored waistcoat, etc.

Although in my definition, that's merely being a dandy.

To my mind, Goth in the modern day is a neo-romantic movement that, contrary to the forever-young stance of mainstream American society, isn't afraid to embrace the fact of mankind's mortality. In so doing, it fetishizes funereal symbols and fashions, particularly of the Victorian era, and holds an appreciation for gothic literary, music, and visual arts. Hence the veneration for vampiric symbolism, and its simultaneous embrace and subversion of religious iconography (particularly of the Catholic Church).

The Matrix look is not Gothic, per se (which is, by definition, retro). It is Industrial/Futurist. However, color pallette being similar and the lines blurred thanks to a liquid subculture, some people do wear a bit of both, in addition to a smattering of Fetish-with-a-capital-F clothing -- particularly in clubland. After all, getting noticed is really the aim of all fashion, isn't it.
Message: Posted by: Dark illusionist (Nov 8, 2003 11:26PM)
Necromancer - WELL SAID.
Florian Rago - What makes you think that matrix style goth is the "tru goth style"?

Being goth is also about unity. In many peoples opinion it is not something to be devided into subcatagories. The gothic subculture is sapposed to be a small enough group as it is.

My persona is vary much gothic but I don't make it a habbit to call myself a goth when IM not onstage just because I like to dress in a way that makes ME feel comfertable and I don't feel like conforming to a large group of hot topick kids.
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 8, 2003 11:36PM)
For God's sake, Neil, your argument is solid and valid but you assume that the pathetic conformists who pretend to be Goths will understand! They have proven that they barely know their butt from a brick!
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Nov 10, 2003 12:15PM)
On 2003-11-09 00:36, Peter Marucci wrote:
For God's sake, Neil, your argument is solid and valid but you assume that the pathetic conformists who pretend to be Goths will understand! They have proven that they barely know their butt from a brick!


Thanks, Peter. I probably should have included the following disclaimer: The above is my personal definition of Goth culture. Any similarity to the definitions of others is purely coincidental.

Like you, I agree that most club kids emulating Goth style have no working definition of Goth culture at all, and simply possess a superficial appreciation for fangs and foppery. Thus has it always been: whenever a subculture has enjoyed a certain cache, it invariably has attracted poseurs who don't think deeply enough to value it for more than its outward trappings.

Pretenders aside, we all know that you, Peter, are gothic to the core.

And now, a production number from the upcoming smash, Blair Witch, The Musical!
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
Now that's creepy!
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 10, 2003 02:27PM)
Neil writes: "And now, a production number from the upcoming smash, Blair Witch, The Musical!

"Now that's creepy!"

What would be even more frightening is the hot Christmas gift this year to turn out to be -- are you ready for this -- Goth Barbie!

(Trouble is, they'd probably sell a zillion of 'em!)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 10, 2003 02:40PM)
I'm still confused about the roots of Goth.

I have researched the Goths (like the Francs etc)

I have read some of the 'you should get out more often - housebound' stories called gothic literature

I have researched the black/white/morbid druggie crowd from the 18-19th centuries.

Where are we now?
Message: Posted by: Necromancer (Nov 10, 2003 03:59PM)
Peter: Goth Barbie has been done as a limited edition art piece, but not officially licensed by Mattel. (I think it was done by the same artist who came up with such memorable variants as Trailer Trash Barbie and Crack Ho Barbie.)

JonTown: It appears that you're looking for a straight line from the Goths to the Gothic Novel to Victorian Opiumheads to the current Goth subculture. I don't believe there is one.

The current Goth subculture borrows from much of the above, and is largely a nostalgic exercise; as such, it is deeply mired in its own historical references, rendering attempts at "updating" it as irrelevant as modernizing the Civil War Reenactment subculture.

Again, this is just my take on things, but I hope something in it helps you. For other viewpoints, check out these links:

Best of luck,
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 10, 2003 04:34PM)
Neil, I'm interested in subcultures as they form and what the people involved hold as a common bond.

My questions come from the really antique 'outsiders' that were black/white sever looking with widows peaks and such back in the late 1700s here in American, and how that similar shock of the new might be updated.

The subburban mall goths and 'renaisance' folks are what is also know as 'conforming rebels'. They want to be different from the mainstream though conforming to their popular image/niche/fad. Like guys with mullets and guys over 50 buying sports cars for 'cruising'.

These Goths that have an esthetic, do they take Laudninum? Waste away indoors in a funk of introspection worrying that the outside world is more hostile than their dysfunctional families?

I'm going to lump the mall goths in with the store bought wiccans that seem kind of vain about their historical and traditional stuff. Very tough to bootstrap a thousand years of history.

* note bene: no comment made on ANYONE's sincere religious beliefs or the practices associated with their worhship. *
Message: Posted by: Peter Marucci (Nov 10, 2003 09:51PM)
Hey, great! I really gotta get one of those Crack Ho Barbies!

(Don't need Trailer Trash Barbie; I think I already know her!)

Message: Posted by: DanielGreenWolf (Nov 10, 2003 10:13PM)
I used to desire the gothic lifestyle because, at the time, goths with red hair was the best thing to be. But I evolved, in my opinion, into something that reflects me more. A mixture of Renaissance, modern day, and Irish Pride. (Mose commonly Green Ren Shirt, blue jeans, 2 leather belt pouches, leather vest and long red hair)

Goths are an interesting life-style and I feel they should be handled with care. :bg: I still like wearing black because it makes me look slimmer.

-Malak aka Daniel GreenWolf

"Does this black leather, silver-studded, whip make my butt look big?"
---Image concerned Dominatrix
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 10, 2003 11:14PM)
Malak, could you describe what's important to the Goths you've met? Seeking ideals and motivations here.

Are you currently hanging with the rene folks? If so, what do they value?
Message: Posted by: DanielGreenWolf (Nov 18, 2003 01:10AM)
What's important to goths is different with every goth, just as rennies. But I feel the overall driving force of both goths and rennies is to have fun with what they like to do. Goths love life and embrace the idea that death and darkness exists. This can lead to the physical representation of this darkness through attitude, dress, etc. The Renaissance is a time of rebirth and celebration of life and chivalry, which is what rennies embrace and celebrate. This is from those I know and have met, including myself.

---Malak aka Daniel GreenWolf