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Topic: Cups and balls from a sitting possition?
Message: Posted by: Nicholas Night (Dec 27, 2012 11:25PM)
I can't seem to find this... can anyone think of a way to do the cups and balls from a sitting position, WITHOUT a bag?

as a side question, are expsensive cups and balls really neccessary? Or could I just Penn and Teller is and use my alluminum foil balls and plastic cups?
Message: Posted by: pepka (Dec 28, 2012 12:10AM)
Yes, it's been done hundreds of times. Vernon himself worked the first part sitting, and then stood up for the final load sequence. Paul Gertner also sat while doing his world famous routine. If you do some research you'll find dozens of big and not so big names who sit.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 28, 2012 03:31AM)
C&B is performed by magicians in wheelchairs -- and not always with stable. A tray on lap or affixed to the arm is enough.

Standing only only gives a possible advantage for large loads, but a Servante has advantages too.

Whether or not the audience is sitting or standing is also important.


Presentation is always more important than props. Whatever you use it should seem reasonable for the audience, setting and storyline.
Message: Posted by: cirrus (Dec 28, 2012 06:56AM)
On 2012-12-28 00:25, Nicholas Night wrote:
I can't seem to find this... can anyone think of a way to do the cups and balls from a sitting position, WITHOUT a bag?

as a side question, are expsensive cups and balls really neccessary? Or could I just Penn and Teller is and use my alluminum foil balls and plastic cups?

You don't need expensive cups to start with. Learn the effect first. when you start performing, buy the expensive cups. you will have a few years until you have the effect in your hands. It took me 7 years to be on the level I am now... the cups and balls was the first effect I learned properly (and I am still working on it) recently I upgraded to more expensive cups (sisti cups of rnt.
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Dec 28, 2012 11:42AM)
Seated performances were common at a time when much of the close-up magic was also performed while seated. This is how I learned. In fact, it was John Mendoza's routine that I first learned (besides the basic "stacking" routine from the Adams' plastic sets).

There were few if any "table-hoppers", and busking-style street magic was equally as rare. Close-up performances were more formal, even in restaurants.

When I was young an skinny, performing the cups and balls while seated was a piece of cake. Now that I am old and fat, I've found that I no longer have a lap. ;) Had I not learned during that earlier time in my life, I might question the feasibility, too.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Dec 28, 2012 01:48PM)
Hello Nicholas!~ You R the 15 yr. old that joined this motley crew recently? Me, too! --only, I'm 81! I'm sure I remember your name, but not 100% sure of the rest.

You are not far from Colon. Abbott's usually has a close up "convention" in April (I think). It's on a weekend. If it's possible for you to attend, you might be able to pick up some very good ideas there (on C & B) You could phone Greg Bordner and ask if anyone coming is 'doing' C&B.

See the above comments already posted! They all have said something worth your knowing. ONE REPETITION (for emphasis)>>>THE PERFORMER IS ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PROPS!!!,and the performer's PRESENTATON is even more important! PPPPP=PLEASING,PRESENTATIONS,Produce PLEASING PERFORMANCES!

I knew Dai,and know Paul--and Penn & Teller,too. (I shared a suite at the Waldof-Astoria with Penn & Teller--SAM Conv '78) The "Professor" and Paul both did/do brilliant routines--but they didn't achieve that overnight! Plan on it being a life "quest"! "...one learns by doing the thing..." --Sophocles "You only coast in ONE direction" --??? "...the journey of a thousand miles, begins with one step..." --ancient Chinese proverb.

Welcome to the wonderful world of PRESTIDIGITATION!
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Dec 29, 2012 12:40PM)
Read up on Slydini, Don Allen, Canradi (sp), Vernon, and John Flashman they all worked seated. Flashman uses six load balls from his lap in resturants.
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Dec 29, 2012 01:38PM)
Ringmaster, do you mean Dan Fleshman?
Message: Posted by: Ba Ba Booey (Dec 29, 2012 01:42PM)
What? You don't need expensive cups? My magic dealer sold me a $350 set of cups, telling me that that was the best way to perform the trick! Now I'll have to rethink my purchase of an $800 dollar wand...
Message: Posted by: Lawrence O (Jan 1, 2013 09:35AM)
Also, for pure sitting and lapping C&Bs routine without bag, check Dominique Duvivier's routine who manages, around the end of the routine, to get an additional cup without any one realizinng where it comes from before it's already far on to the table and the audience realize that there are no longer only three cups in play.
Message: Posted by: Woland (Jan 1, 2013 12:09PM)
Also, look at the thread on Al Schneider's C & B and follow the link he posted to a seated performance.
Message: Posted by: WingChun (Jan 15, 2013 03:30PM)
Check Harry Riser book "Feints and Tepms of H. Riser". Also John Mendoza routine (though he uses a combo set) is performed seated.
Message: Posted by: Illusionist (Feb 5, 2013 03:45AM)
We can sit and preform? I like this job!
Message: Posted by: cirrus (Feb 5, 2013 08:17AM)
On 2013-02-05 04:45, Illusionist wrote:
We can sit and preform? I like this job!

Yes, but that doesn't mean you can be lazy at what you do.
Message: Posted by: Illusionist (Feb 5, 2013 10:16AM)
Oh no never lazy lol. But I did wonder about this too at one point. My back isn't the greatest anymore, so for instance... Making a manipulation routine whilst sitting in a barstool under a spotlight could be kinda diferent right? Just a wuestion since I cant stand for long durations.
Message: Posted by: Illusionist (Feb 5, 2013 10:18AM)
Sorry by routine I mean contact juggling. that's my forte :)
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Feb 5, 2013 10:19AM)
Expensive cups are absolutely not necessary.
Message: Posted by: IvanLee (Feb 5, 2013 11:43PM)
On 2013-02-05 11:19, Ray Haining wrote:
Expensive cups are absolutely not necessary.
I think it's not necessary when you are begginer but it's better to purchase one when you are master.(Just my personal idea)
Message: Posted by: Keith Mitchell (Feb 6, 2013 09:07AM)
I am no expert on C&Bs and only done a few basic performance with any type of magic. Anyway, from what I learned here at Magic Café is that you should try to come up with your own routine for C&B or any magic. Therefore, there is no rule that you have to be seated to perform C&Bs. You can sit, stand, walk around, handstand, or do cartwheels if possible to perform C&Bs, it all depends on what you are capable of doing. With C&Bs there are so many things you can do to put on a great show.

The number of cups all depends on the routine that you decide to use. Generally C&Bs is perform with 3 cups of some type, but that is not the rule, it's something that works for a lot of people. Some performers might use 4, 2, or even one cup to perform C&Bs, again it all depends on how you feel about your own routine. Also, the number of balls or type of balls and final load(s) depends on the routine that you decide to use.

The type of cups to use, again depends on YOU. There are a lot of C&Ballers here that have a big collections of cups. Expensive cups to very affordable cups. Made from anything, copper, brass, aluminum, glass, plastic, or clay etc, etc. I have seen great performance with plastic cups, copper cups, and aluminum cups. Some where on YouTube there is a guy at a Deli who uses a balled up napkin and uses a single coffee cup to perform C&B and I believe the final load was a balled up dollar bill, don't really remember the final load, but this guy put on a great performance.

The biggest challenge for me is Patter, but for some people patter is very easily done.

The bottom line for C&Bs is which routine YOU can best perform using whatever equipment that fits YOUR routine. I found a chop cup routine by Don Alan that I like, but I am gonna have to come up with my own Patter to fit my personality. I have this really cool wooden chop cup that I want to use with this routine, and I am waiting for the balls to arrive from RNT-2.

For years I have had several books and DVDs on C&Bs and have lots of cups to choose from, but my biggest problem is that I have not come up with my own original routine. Maybe one day I will eventually get it down, or I might not ever get it at all. Only time will tell.

Have fun
Message: Posted by: Danny Archer (Feb 16, 2013 12:39PM)
Dan Fleshman did his routine seated and produced six balls for the climax...
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Feb 16, 2013 01:43PM)
Keith... take any routine, work on it, do it do it do it.. and soon it can become your routine. Main thing? Have fun with it.
Message: Posted by: sadhu (Mar 12, 2013 09:22PM)
Fred Kaps did his cups and balls routine seated. Peter Biro's book 'Fred Kaps' cups and balls & more' detailed the whole
routine. I believed that Fred used a set of Monti cups and three 1 1/2-inch sponge balls. Fred's routine is very interesting
and still can be found on youtube.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Mar 12, 2013 11:18PM)
But the Kaps routine has no final, large loads, correct?
Message: Posted by: sadhu (Mar 13, 2013 05:59AM)
According to Peter Biro's book 'Fred Kaps' cups and balls & more' , For the final loads, Fred used real fruit. And when real fruits
not available, he would use larger contrasting color sponge balls. A fourth load normally would be something like tomato or
potato. All four loads in the left jacket pocket.
Message: Posted by: Oberon_Puck (Mar 13, 2013 02:19PM)
I originally learned the cups starting in a sitting position and moving to a standing one for the final loads. I want to say that Dai Vernon came up with that routine but don't quote me on it.
Anyways, it’s pretty easy to do the final loads while sitting, just keep moving, keep it smooth and stay confident.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Mar 13, 2013 07:30PM)
I was thinking of another routine with no final loads then, Johnny Paul's maybe.
Message: Posted by: sadhu (Mar 14, 2013 04:55AM)
According to the DVD 'The greater magic video library on Johnny Paul", his cups and balls
routine ends with the final load using a lemon. It was under the last cup with a lady audience
pressing her hand on the saddle of the cup.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Mar 14, 2013 09:54AM)
Nick Trost's? I remember reading somewhere somebody's routine where there were no final loads.
Message: Posted by: sadhu (Mar 14, 2013 10:34PM)
May be you are right. I remember someone told me that the
Nick Trost's cups and balls routine requires no sleight of
hands, therefore, no final load.
Message: Posted by: BeThePlunk (Aug 10, 2013 06:26AM)
Dominique Duvivier must use a chop cup, right?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 10, 2013 03:43PM)
If sitting, can use a six or more cup set - swap them in as you need. Heck I used a three cup set for a version the Ramsay routine (okay it wound up closer to Hofzinser's) at one point ;)