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Topic: 4-5-6 by Al Thatcher
Message: Posted by: captainsmiffy (Jan 14, 2013 01:04PM)
Chaps

Just came across this in the ultimate self working card tricks DVD from BBM. Was having trouble - unbelievably, I know! - making it work if I cut a small portion off the top, yet the explanation appears to allow for this scenario. Has anyone else had any trouble in this area?

Posted: Jan 14, 2013 02:27 pm
Actually, got it sorted. The explanation gives the impression of a large leeway in the cut but it is not a LARGE leeway....! They really mean close to the centre with a leeway of about 10 cards either side.....
Message: Posted by: brad12d3 (Jan 14, 2013 01:58PM)
There is a bit more advanced version in on of Harry Loraynes books called Stop!. It requires a good eye and a decent amount of practice but it is a bit stronger. Great trick that can be done with any deck. One of my favorites. :)
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 14, 2013 03:42PM)
[quote]On 2013-01-14 14:58, brad12d3 wrote:
There is a bit more advanced version in [b][i]on[e] of Harry Loraynes books[/i][/b] called Stop!. It requires a good eye and a decent amount of practice but it is a bit stronger. Great trick that can be done with any deck. One of my favorites. :)[/quote]
Specifically, it's in [b]Close-Up Card Magic[/b]. Good effect.
Message: Posted by: the fritz (Jan 14, 2013 07:33PM)
Yes, very good effect which is also in Classic Collection, vol 1 and Scarne on Card Tricks (if I'm not mistaken) under a different name but I'll let you have the pleasure of exploring this great card book.
Message: Posted by: captainsmiffy (Jan 14, 2013 08:29PM)
Thanks gentlemen! I have the Lorayne book and will look it up....
Message: Posted by: WalterPlinge (Jun 16, 2013 09:18PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-14 14:58, brad12d3 wrote:
There is a bit more advanced version in on of Harry Loraynes books called Stop!. It requires a good eye and a decent amount of practice but it is a bit stronger. Great trick that can be done with any deck. One of my favorites. :)
[/quote]

Who is Al Thatcher? This is actually Harry Lorayne's trick. Do they give any credit to Harry on the DVD?

Thanks,

Walter
Message: Posted by: cigmas (Jun 16, 2013 10:32PM)
The Al Thatcher version is also in Aldo Colombini's Impromptu Card Magic eBook
Message: Posted by: WalterPlinge (Jun 16, 2013 11:35PM)
But it's exactly the same as Stop! by Harry Lorayne. I have it on Colombini's Impromptu Card Magic Vol 2. DVD.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jun 17, 2013 05:42PM)
Nothing is quite sacred anymore!!
Message: Posted by: the fritz (Jun 27, 2013 03:25PM)
That's why we need your next book to be lots of stories from the old days. I wasn't born until the early 70's but I'd love to hear some of your war stories! Just let me know when it's due out and I'll be first in line ;)
Message: Posted by: KokoB (Jun 29, 2013 08:47AM)
This is another great effect I think Mr. Lorayne is the master of effects like this, It does not suprise me someone changed it up a bit & called it his own. Effects like this are great to perform because to the laiman this is impossible. The DVD contains allot of great effect this is my favorite DVD but I still enjoy reading books. Books contain so much more magic than DVD's do...
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jun 29, 2013 09:38AM)
The fritz (and anyone else that's interested) - send me your email - to the first email address listed under this post. That way, you'll be advised when any new book of mine appears. Best - Harry L. Amazing, isn't it? The obvious thieves out there. Aldo (who should know better) told me that he'd mention the THEFT in his next book. We shall see. H.
Message: Posted by: Snidini (Aug 28, 2015 09:32PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2013, captainsmiffy wrote:
Chaps

Just came across this in the ultimate self working card tricks DVD from BBM. Was having trouble - unbelievably, I know! - making it work if I cut a small portion off the top, yet the explanation appears to allow for this scenario. Has anyone else had any trouble in this area? [/quote]

Captain, I too found the instructions/tutorial a bit misleading. They didn't do a good job explaining the 4 & 6 cut portions. They just lead you to believe "it's always 5". I finally played around with it enough to figure it out. I also found a couple other tricks on there that they didn't do a good job explaining the proper technique instructions.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 30, 2015 02:23PM)
You could just check it out in CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC where it was originally published by me, and properly taught, even way back then. And then re-written, updated, etc., in LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION, Vol. 1 - unfortunately, both books are out of print. You guys have to start reading the good stuff!!
Message: Posted by: RogerTheShrubber (Aug 30, 2015 03:56PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
You could just check it out in CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC where it was originally published by me, and properly taught, even way back then. And then re-written, updated, etc., in LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION, Vol. 1 - unfortunately, both books are out of print. You guys have to start reading the good stuff!! [/quote]

Mr. Lorayne, has there been any thought of taking some of the out-of-print stuff and making .pdfs out of it? I ask this question under the assumption that you yourself still have a copy or two of all the stuff out of print.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 30, 2015 05:42PM)
Roger: All my magic books, including all APOCALYPSE issues, are now available as e-books. Just go to harryloraynemagic.com and click on "Magic E-Books" and you'll see the entire list. I do much prefer that people purchase the regular books, those that are still available, directly from me - but you can do the same with the e-books. So - no excuses!! Best - Harry L.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Aug 30, 2015 05:48PM)
For the historians and those that care...

This was a great trick when it was [i]originally[/i] published as [b]I Should Judge[/b], pp. 38-40, in Rufus Steele's [b]1946[/b] book [i]50 Tricks ~ Tricks You Can Do - You Will Do - Easy To Do[/i].

Unfortunately, there is no attribution as to the creator of the effect.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 30, 2015 06:20PM)
I'm not an historian and I don't care. (Repeat: You guys should start reading the good stuff!)
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Aug 30, 2015 06:26PM)
Never mind.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 30, 2015 06:37PM)
Done. I never mind.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Aug 30, 2015 06:47PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Done. I never mind. [/quote]

?

I had made a comment and after further reflection, I decided it wasn't worth it so I edited my post.

Thus, never mind.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Aug 31, 2015 10:12AM)
And after further reflection I think it's important to repeat: You guys should start reading the good stuff!
Message: Posted by: doopyloop (Aug 31, 2015 06:25PM)
"The obvious thieves out there." ... "You could just check it out in CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC where it was originally published by me, and properly taught, even way back then."

"This was a great trick when it was originally published as I Should Judge, pp. 38-40, in Rufus Steele's 1946 book 50 Tricks ~ Tricks You Can Do - You Will Do - Easy To Do."

"I'm not an historian and I don't care."

:(
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 07:38AM)
Repetition is good. So: "I'm not an historian and I don't care. You guys should start reading the good stuff!" Thanks, dopeyloop.
Message: Posted by: LookyLookyMan (Sep 1, 2015 07:50AM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2015, doopyloop wrote:
"The obvious thieves out there." ... "You could just check it out in CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC where it was originally published by me, and properly taught, even way back then."

"This was a great trick when it was originally published as I Should Judge, pp. 38-40, in Rufus Steele's 1946 book 50 Tricks ~ Tricks You Can Do - You Will Do - Easy To Do."

"I'm not an historian and I don't care."

:( [/quote]

It's bizarre to me how Mr L doesn't just say "Oh yes, that's obviously something someone else put out before me. Sorry."
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 09:12AM)
Haven't read it, haven't seen it, so can't say that.

If in fact it is so, obviously I'd "just say", etc. But I've every once in a while heard these kinds of things, Mr. New User, for over FOUR DECADES and most often, when I checked, what was stated had little to do with what I had published.

And, what I had published was published in a book back in 1962 - that's over half a century ago - a book that has sold more than most magic books ever, I'm told. And people all over the world, and over these decades, have been performing my STOP! And, so far as I know, and so far as anyone knew, including personal friends, like Dai Vernon, John Scarne, Bill Simon, Francis Carlyle, Dick Cardini, Tony Slydini, Jacob Daley, and on and on, knew, nobody had been performing a similar effect. (Know why? 'Cause I fooled people like those just mentioned with STOP!)

People all over the world started to perform it WHEN I PUBLISHED IT. Needed to let you know that, sir, just for the record.

So, Mr. New User, have you read that item in Rufus Steele's book and have you read my routine in my book? If you have, and since you're quite interested in this thread, please send me a copy - do it here so that all can see - of the Rufus Steele effect. Then we can KNOWLEDGEABLY judge.

And to repeat, I'll be more than happy to follow your instructions and "just say" if in fact "just say" is warranted. Of course, if you haven't read either of the above - that'd be really, really, BIZARRE TO ME - and I'd wonder why you couldn't just say, "I had no idea what I was talking about. Sorry." So, let's go from there, Mr. New User. Let me make sure I'm being clear ... so I'll say it again - If, in fact, my STOP! is similar to the item in Mr. Steele's book, I will be more than happy to "just say."
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Sep 1, 2015 09:35AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:

And people all over the world, and over these decades, have been performing my STOP! And, so far as I know, and so far as anyone knew, including personal friends, like Dai Vernon, John Scarne, Bill Simon, Francis Carlyle, Dick Cardini, Tony Slydini, Jacob Daley, and on and on, knew, [b]nobody had been performing a similar effect.[/b] (Know why? 'Cause I fooled people like those just mentioned with STOP!)

[/quote]

From the introduction to [b]I Should Judge[/b], page 38, in [i]50 Tricks[/i]...

[i]"This effect was used for a number of years to [b]fool magicians with[/b]."[/i]

Interesting that [b]no one[/b] knew of it.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 10:31AM)
Sorry; this still doesn't tell me the effect you're talking about. No help at all. Just a bit of psychobabble; meaningless. So, let me repeat: "And people all over the world, and over these decades, have been performing my STOP! And, so far as I know, and so far as anyone knew, including personal friends, like Dai Vernon, John Scarne, Bill Simon, Francis Carlyle, Dick Cardini, Tony Slydini, Jacob Daley, and on and on, knew, nobody had been performing a similar effect. (Know why? 'Cause I fooled people like those just mentioned with STOP!)"

That means - just want to make it clear for those who seem not to be able to understand - NOBODY, so far as I, and so far as those mentioned above in my "repeat," knew of anyone doing ANY SORT OF SIMILAR EFFECT until AFTER my book was published in 1962. Of course, I'd been doing Stop! (and fooling knowledgeable magicians like those in my "repeat") for years before CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC was published. I remember doing it for Lou Tannen, who said, "Will you put that effect in a book?" I said "sure." That had something to do with Tannens publishing a book written by a then unknown.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Sep 1, 2015 11:23AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:

Sorry; this still doesn't tell me the effect you're talking about. No help at all. Just a bit of psychobabble; meaningless.[/quote]

The effect I am talking about (as stated more than once) is [b]I Should Judge[/b].

The trick and method are [b]exactly[/b] as you published in 1962, sixteen years after [i]50 Tricks[/i].
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 11:32AM)
You'd have to "do" a copy here, as I've already asked Looky... to do, so that I can see it. Then, if it's as you say, I'll agree that that came first EVEN THOUGH I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT - just as the names I've already dropped didn't know anything about it.

So, I know you're salivating because here's your chance to try to show me up! (What a surprise!) So do it - put a copy of I Should Judge here - I sure want to see if it's EXACTLY like what I published in 1962. If it is, obviously I'd have to "just say" that that came first - two minds, etc. And that'd be the end of this boring thread. Not terribly unusual - IT'S BEEN DONE TO ME MANY, MANY, TIMES OVER THE DECADES. Interesting that you never came in to spout about those. Anyway, let's all see a copy of I Should Judge out of Rufus Steele's book.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 11:35AM)
If that Steele item is the same - then I'll simply have to accept only the kudos for popularizing the effect. That's fine by me. Get to it, Kabullah. You'll even make LookyKooky... happy. (Don't know why Abbott and Costello come to mind.)
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Sep 1, 2015 11:36AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:

So, Mr. New User, have you read that item in Rufus Steele's book and have you read my routine in my book? If you have, and since you're quite interested in this thread, please send me a copy - [b]do it here so that all can see - of the Rufus Steele effect. Then we can KNOWLEDGEABLY judge[/b].

[/quote]

Since Harry posed the challenge, for those interested in provenance and crediting, and, not in possession of the Rufus Steele book. you can get it [url=http://shop.conjuringarts.org/store/pc/50-Tricks-You-Can-Do-You-Will-Do-Easy-to-Do-compiled-by-W-F-Rufus-Steele-PDF-52p370.htm#.VeXSeflViko]here[/url] for $2.99.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 11:38AM)
As I've mentioned to those who've called - Don't ask me why things from over six and five decades ago are taking up space here. I've no idea. Oh well, I do have a bit of an idea re: Mr. Obvious Kabullah, but I don't want to take up any more space.

Posted: Sep 1, 2015 02:38 pm
Still waiting for the lovelies to print out that effect so we can all see how similar my STOP! is to it. Until then - it's just the usual Kabullah psychobabble. Hey, he may be right - but there's no way to know, at least for me to know, until I read exactly what was in Mr. Steele's book.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 01:38PM)
Still waiting for the lovelies to print out that effect so we can all see how similar my STOP! is to it. Until then - it's just the usual Kabullah psychobabble. Hey, he may be right - but there's no way to know, at least for me to know, until I read exactly what was in Mr. Steele's book.
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Sep 1, 2015 05:59PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
As I've mentioned to those who've called - Don't ask me why things from over six and five decades ago are taking up space here.[/quote]
Most probably because we're talking about [b]crediting [/b]here!?
Or how else would you call the whole 'theft debate' you had started yourself, Harry?

When it's about proper crediting, it doesn't matter if we're talking about years or even decades! Also, it's not someone else's job to do the research for you when you put out an effect under your name, imho.

Personally, I look very much forward to compare both effects. And no: I don't ask any member here to file share a copy. :angel:
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 1, 2015 05:59PM)
As I said, Kabullah may be right, but I would like him to prove this statement of his: "The trick and method are exactly as you published in 1962, sixteen years after 50 Tricks." Repeat - it's his "exactly" I'd like him to prove. And to repeat again, he may be right, but prove it, dammit. And if it's proven, as I said, I will simply have to accept the kudos for popularizing the effect, enabling card people all over the world, over the decades, to stun people with it which, so far as I know, was never, ever, done before. So, forgive all the "repeats," but - still waiting for his proof.
Message: Posted by: Count Lustig (Sep 1, 2015 07:21PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
...Hey, he may be right - but there's no way to know, at least for me to know, until I read exactly what was in Mr. Steele's book. [/quote]
Yes, there is absolutely no way in God's green earth that you can ever know. No possible way--unless you're willing to spend two dollars and ninety-nine cents.
Message: Posted by: doopyloop (Sep 1, 2015 07:53PM)
Harry Lorayne, you are not KING and persons here not your SERVANTS.

Kaballah user shows you book where all can see method. You are publsiher and writer. You have RESPONSIBILITY if you sell magic book for money and putting your name on the covers. You hve this SPECIALLY if you call other person THIEF when situation is reversal.

This is SAD.

:(
Message: Posted by: ekgdoc (Sep 1, 2015 10:53PM)
I Should Judge as published by Rufus Steele:

"Effect: The cards are cut and the card at bottom of cut remembered. The deck is now squared and if you can false shuffle it will help. The deck is now divided into five piles one card at a time on each pile. Now spectator is asked to look through the piles and find the pile his selected card is in. The rest of the piles are discarded. The spectator is told to hold his pile face down and deal one card at a time in a pile until told to stop. When spectator goes through the pile the first time offer an excuse "you laid them down too fast for me, do it once more and do it slower". After several cards are laid on the table and the spectator is about to lay another down say, "Stop", and believe it or not the card he is now holding is the selected card."

I would say this is similar to HL's "Stop!" The method is based on the same principle though one could argue that the methods themselves are different (as one involves division and the other does not). However the effect and method (especially the method) are poorly explained by Steele. For example, he does not state whether the cards should be face up or face down when dealt into the 5 piles. I had to read HL's description to find out. Based on the instructions given by Steele, I could not perform the trick as it is so poorly written.

As usual, HL's description of Stop! is crystal clear. Also, it is not EXACTLY identical. For example, in Stop! the participant is asked to deal the cards into 4, 5, or 6 piles (not just 5) which certainly elevates the effect. Also HL, but not Steele, discusses some outs in case one's estimation is off.

For me, "Stop!" is doable and "I Should Judge" is not.

David M.
Message: Posted by: LookyLookyMan (Sep 2, 2015 02:52AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2015, doopyloop wrote:
Harry Lorayne, you are not KING and persons here not your SERVANTS.

Kaballah user shows you book where all can see method. You are publsiher and writer. You have RESPONSIBILITY if you sell magic book for money and putting your name on the covers. You hve this SPECIALLY if you call other person THIEF when situation is reversal.

This is SAD.

:( [/quote]

It's not like it's the first time it's happened. For someone who wrote a book about memory, HL seems to forget where a lot of his stuff originally came from.
Message: Posted by: Nicolino (Sep 2, 2015 04:08AM)
Sadly true, LookyLookyMan. :(

Way back in 2011 HL went throught a similar discussion [Url=http://tinyurl.com/ppgxnwo]in this depressing thread[/url] (where the Rufus Steele trick was also mentioned, btw :angel:) but in the in the rapture of calling other users "idiots" more than twenty times he oviously forgot about it. :devilish:

But then again, [url=http://tinyurl.com/nq5qunc]his reputation had severely suffered[/url] already back then. It's plain to see why.
Just sad to observe a man's self-demolition.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 2, 2015 08:38AM)
Yes; finally. Before I came here I checked PM's and someone was nice enough to send me the Rufus Steele item - of course, he ended it like this: "Exactly the same as Stop!? I don't think so. Best,"

I'd never seen it before and well, I'm shocked and amazed, because - yes, the concepts ARE the same. I can see why, as David M. says above, many if not most, would pass by the Steele item. It is confusing, etc. But, gotta' admit again - THE CONCEPTS ARE THE SAME. Two minds, etc. As I told Mr. Kabullah I'll have to simply accept all the kudos and be pleased with the fact that I made the concept WORKABLE and popularized it. (Repeat: NOBODY was doing anything similar until CLOSE-UP CARD MAGIC appeared.)

So, regardless of the sweet attitude of some of the "lovelies" above, when I see something like this of course I admit that the ideas/concepts are similar. This should make the Doopys and Lookys and Nicolinos (who don't know me or anything about me AT ALL) very happy, and now they can go back under their moist rocks - while we all spend our days searching for their valuable contributions to the art. (Talk about "SAD.")

So, let me be clear and make sure they, and all, including Mr. Kabullah understand - YES, I never knew it, I never read the Rufus Steele book (yes, I'm stupid, but not THAT stupid - had I known about it I would have mentioned it), had I read the Steele book I would have bypassed that item - as it seems most others did - but that does not alter the fact that the basic concept of my STOP! IS THE SAME AS THE RUFUS STEELE ITEM.
Message: Posted by: doopyloop (Sep 2, 2015 09:05AM)
[quote]On Sep 2, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
...and now they can go back under their moist rocks - while we all spend our days searching for their valuable contributions to the art. (Talk about "SAD.")
[/quote]

I have not many contribution to the art of magic. But I promise you. When I contributed to the art all my contributions come from me ad not other magician.

Yes it is very sad.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 2, 2015 09:49AM)
Just quoting someone else's remark: "Said it before and I'll say it again. The vast majority of people dislike Harry Lorayne because of one reason.

Jealousy!"

I'm sure we all simply can't wait for your upcoming amazing, vast, contributions, DopeyLoop. Right now, we are all breathlessly awaiting your next load of wit!
Message: Posted by: PIPO (Sep 2, 2015 11:09AM)
Even though Mr. Lorayne is not my cup of tea, I think criticizing from an anonymous account it is easy and cowardy.

I believe proper crediting is such an important thing, but given the huge amount of books/eBooks/DVDs/notes published, I am afraid the only way to stick to the promise of “never ever publishing material published before” is by no publishing any material at all.

Points have been made, and it is all clarified now. It seems Mr.Lorayne genuinely did not know of this earlier reference (neither did I). It is great to have tracked down successfully the original routine. I think the best thing for all to do now is move on.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Sep 2, 2015 11:57AM)
And you're not my cup of coffee, Pipo, but I do appreciate your post. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: doopyloop (Sep 2, 2015 06:33PM)
[quote]On Sep 2, 2015, PIPO wrote:
Even though Mr. Lorayne is not my cup of tea, I think criticizing from an anonymous account it is easy and cowardy.
[/quote]

Is easy saying anonymous account is coward. Long time ago I was take in "email fishing" scam and so now I do not use real name in the internet. Now I use not real name, tell country, or even tell number one language.

It was sad. IT by a magician who have low moral value.

So in this situatoin with another magician with low moral value I make no apologize for not use real name.

And JEALOUSY?

Why I jealous of yo Mr Harry Lorayne? Every day whenI waking up and every night when I go to sleep I know that my contributuions to magic art belogn to me and not take from other magician.

I think in theend you will be jealous of magicians like me. I think already it start because ou so angry when persons show you truth on this forum.

It is sad situations to call magicians thiefs when your book materials is not yours. But if you REALLY think jealous? Then I am more sad for you.
Message: Posted by: LookyLookyMan (Sep 3, 2015 05:09AM)
[quote]On Sep 2, 2015, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Just quoting someone else's remark: "Said it before and I'll say it again. The vast majority of people dislike Harry Lorayne because of one reason. Jealousy"[/quote]


Just quoting someone else's remark:
"I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what I'm with isn't it, and what's it seems weird and scary to me, and it'll happen to you, too.
Message: Posted by: RogerTheShrubber (Sep 3, 2015 07:25AM)
Just imagining that someone else said this and I'm quoting it: the only thing threads like these lead to when they take this turn is a series of deleted posts. As such, for what it's worth (admittedly, probably not much), if I were participating in the back-and-forth here I wouldn't waste a lot of time on it, as the posts probably won't last anyway.