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Topic: Coinvexed - Third Generation
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jan 20, 2013 03:26PM)
Hi Guys

Here's my latest exclusive scoop for you all.

David Penn will be launching Coinvexed 3 imminently.

I can't give too much away at this stage however the gimmick has been updated so it now fits both ends of a Sharpie - a small but important update for those that own the original.

The DVD will feature Dave's 2 coin routine along with the fantastic 'Phobia' routine from Marc Lavel and Amit Badiani's Hypnotic presentation.

Don't ask me for any more information as I've probably already said too much. I'll allow you to speculate on the rest. ;)

J
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Jan 20, 2013 08:09PM)
Nothing about price states side? So I can get my piggy bank?
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jan 21, 2013 01:51AM)
Sounds like an inside out QB2. Could be good, especially as QB2 is no longer available.

best,
Sean
Message: Posted by: *double-A-magic* (Jan 21, 2013 02:12AM)
Hope they do an upgrade pack for Coinvexed 2 owners. Looking forward to hearing more about this!!

AA
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 03:45AM)
I hope the 3rd gen is as good as the 2nd... I'm not sure how they can make this any better! The 2.0 has been in my routine since it came out! Genious!
Message: Posted by: richard_mentalism (Jan 21, 2013 05:12AM)
Where can it be ordered?
Message: Posted by: richard_mentalism (Jan 21, 2013 05:12AM)
...and when?
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 05:24AM)
My guess, as with all the other coinvexed releases, would be blackpool!
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jan 21, 2013 08:03AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 04:45, Jordanogrady wrote:
I hope the 3rd gen is as good as the 2nd... I'm not sure how they can make this any better! The 2.0 has been in my routine since it came out! Genious!
[/quote]

Exactly mine V2 works fine

As usual Blackpool is a time when a lot of re releases

And new versions come out

Any day now we will have the "Gold" edition of ILogo
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 08:28AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 09:03, JackMagic wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 04:45, Jordanogrady wrote:
I hope the 3rd gen is as good as the 2nd... I'm not sure how they can make this any better! The 2.0 has been in my routine since it came out! Genious!
[/quote]

Exactly mine V2 works fine

As usual Blackpool is a time when a lot of re releases

And new versions come out

Any day now we will have the "Gold" edition of ILogo
[/quote]

Yep, then 2-3 weeks later magic week is full of things in the for sale section :)
Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Jan 21, 2013 09:34AM)
What exactly made this an exclusive scoop? David posted this same information on his Facebook page yesterday morning.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jan 21, 2013 09:54AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 02:51, Sean Giles wrote:
Sounds like an inside out QB2. Could be good, especially as QB2 is no longer available.

best,
Sean
[/quote]
Slightly off topic here but wasn't there talk about a QB3 coming out?
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 10:20AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 10:34, Andrew Zuber wrote:
What exactly made this an exclusive scoop? David posted this same information on his Facebook page yesterday morning.
[/quote]
For people that are not david's friend on FB???

I am, and didn't spot it.
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 10:21AM)
Suppose that doesn't make it exclusive to here tho.
Message: Posted by: lukecloughmagic (Jan 21, 2013 11:24AM)
Interested to see more about this, is the only upgrade that it fits on the other end of the sharpie? Not sure how necessary this as as during the routine they obviously have the sharpie and you have the gimmick, and I wouldn't really want to hand the pen out with a heavy lid on it for a spec to sign a card. Using a regular sharpie that a spec can take the lid off for all other routines for me is a kind of convincer that my sharpie is normal. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it?
Message: Posted by: rowland (Jan 21, 2013 12:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 12:24, lukecloughmagic wrote:
Interested to see more about this, is the only upgrade that it fits on the other end of the sharpie? Not sure how necessary this as as during the routine they obviously have the sharpie and you have the gimmick, and I wouldn't really want to hand the pen out with a heavy lid on it for a spec to sign a card. Using a regular sharpie that a spec can take the lid off for all other routines for me is a kind of convincer that my sharpie is normal. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it?
[/quote]
I agree at the moment I can't see the advantage of being able to put the cap on the other end,I suppose if anyone struggles to do the necessary it could help but then the routine would have to be altered. Maybe there is more to it than that. it would be good to see the additional routines that Jamie mentioned though.
Also like someone already mentioned I wonder as in the case of coinvexed 2 if there would be an upgrade offered that may be worth getting.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jan 21, 2013 12:29PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 11:21, Jordanogrady wrote:
Suppose that doesn't make it exclusive to here tho.
[/quote]
David was forced to mention it on his Facebook feed because I was about to break the story here.

I like to bring exclusive news to the Café. There's a list as long as my arm of things I've brought here, from Sankey's new online venture (and tattoo!) and Matt Wright's new wallet to the WPR 'debacle' and Mark Leveridge's hold-out being four good examples.

If people like Andrew Zuber (who I believe is jealous of my journalisitc flair) don't want me to bring this type of content to the Café then I'll just share it with a close group of friends in future.

J
Message: Posted by: Alex DLF (Jan 21, 2013 12:37PM)
I was searching for a coin bender since a lot of time.. Do you need to bring a hand full of change to achieve this effect ? Did you have to do it with the version 2.0 ?
Thanks !
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 01:48PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 13:37, nespressaw wrote:
I was searching for a coin bender since a lot of time.. Do you need to bring a hand full of change to achieve this effect ? Did you have to do it with the version 2.0 ?
Thanks !
[/quote]
Coinvexed one uses 2 hands of spare change.
Coinvexed 2 uses a pen and one hand of spare change
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Jan 21, 2013 01:50PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 12:24, lukecloughmagic wrote:
Interested to see more about this, is the only upgrade that it fits on the other end of the sharpie? Not sure how necessary this as as during the routine they obviously have the sharpie and you have the gimmick, and I wouldn't really want to hand the pen out with a heavy lid on it for a spec to sign a card. Using a regular sharpie that a spec can take the lid off for all other routines for me is a kind of convincer that my sharpie is normal. Maybe I'm thinking too much into it?
[/quote]

Agreed, I can't see why it would benefit either, unless there is something hidden...

Maybe they only had so many made (because coinvexed 2 is unavailable) so they are making another batch of them, and have made some slight changes so have called it 3.0 ??? Who knows! But if its just that it fits on both sides of the pen, then I'm not fussed about it...
Message: Posted by: Ray Chelt (Jan 21, 2013 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 13:29, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 11:21, Jordanogrady wrote:
Suppose that doesn't make it exclusive to here tho.
[/quote]
David was forced to mention it on his Facebook feed because I was about to break the story here.

I like to bring exclusive news to the Café. There's a list as long as my arm of things I've brought here, from Sankey's new online venture (and tattoo!) and Matt Wright's new wallet to the WPR 'debacle' and Mark Leveridge's hold-out being four good examples.

If people like Andrew Zuber (who I believe is jealous of my journalisitc flair) don't want me to bring this type of content to the Café then I'll just share it with a close group of friends in future.

J
[/quote]

Thank you Jamie, the Café would be a boring place without your contribution.

Like a village without its idiot.
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2013 03:58PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 13:29, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 11:21, Jordanogrady wrote:
Suppose that doesn't make it exclusive to here tho.
[/quote]
David was forced to mention it on his Facebook feed because I was about to break the story here.

I like to bring exclusive news to the Café. There's a list as long as my arm of things I've brought here, from Sankey's new online venture (and tattoo!) and Matt Wright's new wallet to the WPR 'debacle' and Mark Leveridge's hold-out being four good examples.

If people like Andrew Zuber (who I believe is jealous of my journalisitc flair) don't want me to bring this type of content to the Café then I'll just share it with a close group of friends in future.

J
[/quote]
What I like best about Jamie Ferguson is how humble and grounded in reality he is.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jan 21, 2013 04:10PM)
Since the beginning of the year I have felt like something was missing from my life. Three weeks later I know what it is.....You guys!

Now that you've both responded to one of my posts I feel whole again.

One question FrenchDrop, where's your blue laughing smilie gone? Without it you seem naked.
Message: Posted by: OliOliOli (Jan 21, 2013 04:17PM)
If there's a new bender in town, you can count on Jamie knowing first...
Message: Posted by: FrenchDrop (Jan 21, 2013 05:02PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 17:10, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
One question FrenchDrop, where's your blue laughing smilie gone? Without it you seem naked.
[/quote]
I've asked you to stop picturing me naked, Jamie.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jan 21, 2013 06:25PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 18:02, FrenchDrop wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 17:10, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
One question FrenchDrop, where's your blue laughing smilie gone? Without it you seem naked.
[/quote]
I've asked you to stop picturing me naked, Jamie.
[/quote]

But that's how we all get our kicks, Mr. Drop.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Jan 21, 2013 06:25PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 02:51, Sean Giles wrote:
Sounds like an inside out QB2. Could be good, especially as QB2 is no longer available.

best,
Sean
[/quote]

Oh I'm sure John Sheets has a few laying around that he'd sell ya! But I'd just wait for his newest version. He's currently in a moving transition, but should be back on track soon.
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Jan 21, 2013 07:30PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-20 21:09, paisa23 wrote:
Nothing about price states side? So I can get my piggy bank?
[/quote]
?
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jan 22, 2013 02:37AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 19:25, lunatik wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-01-21 02:51, Sean Giles wrote:
Sounds like an inside out QB2. Could be good, especially as QB2 is no longer available.

best,
Sean
[/quote]

Oh I'm sure John Sheets has a few laying around that he'd sell ya! But I'd just wait for his newest version. He's currently in a moving transition, but should be back on track soon.
[/quote]
That's more like it lunatik :)
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Jan 22, 2013 06:26AM)
I....couldn't....resist!!
Message: Posted by: stookie31 (Jan 28, 2013 05:37AM)
Like most, not sure why this upgrade is needed?
during the handling, you don't put the cap on the non-nib end anyway, you hold it in your hand whilst they sign.

My only comment on the current v2 cap, is that without the 'handle' part, it does not look like a cap.
Adding that would be better than being able to fit it onto the non-nib end.
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Jan 28, 2013 01:05PM)
[/quote]

On 2013-01-21 14:48, Jordanogrady wrote:

Coinvexed one uses 2 hands of spare change.
Coinvexed 2 uses a pen and one hand of spare change


I reckon Coinvexed 3 uses 2 pens and no change. Which is a the next logical step in the evolution of this method.
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Jan 28, 2013 01:19PM)
After years of working with both the QB2 and the CV2 my preference is the QB2. I use it to bend 1p, 5p or 20p coins with no problem. 10p's require a little more force so I tend to not bend these.

But after years of performing the coin-bend both signed and un-signed I'm starting to think that all this signing of coins is unnecessary. Lay people still react to the effect the same way.
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Feb 19, 2013 07:58AM)
The trailer is really subpar as it only shows the reactions of the spectators which I get anyway. I think QB2 is the way to go.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Feb 19, 2013 08:45AM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-28 14:05, bonesly wrote:
[quote]

On 2013-01-21 14:48, Jordanogrady wrote:

Coinvexed one uses 2 hands of spare change.
Coinvexed 2 uses a pen and one hand of spare change
[/quote]

I reckon Coinvexed 3 uses 2 pens and no change. Which is a the next logical step in the evolution of this method.
[/quote]


Are you being sarcastic? Why would you be holding two sharpies?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Feb 19, 2013 08:51AM)
I never liked the "hand full of change" aspect. It SOUNDS like a good idea for camouflaging the gimmick, but in reality it's just an odd thing to have in your hand when you take back their coin. Why would you bring that hand, with a pile of change, back to handle the coin which will be bent? Why wouldn't you just pocket the change?

If you DO "pocket" the change, just to palm it back out, hidden, then why camouflage the gimmick like that at all?

The sharpie makes more sense that you might sill be holding it, but handful of change, no so much.

I could see this making sense if it were something that came out before QB, but I think it is obsolete when one looks at QB. Though I think the gimmicking of a cap could be progress, but not if it's used in conjunction with another gimmick in a handful of change.

That brings up the other big selling point of QB, it is self contained. Not two separate pieces. Although it sounds like the Coinvexed Sharpie can be used to actually writ with, which is a bit of a plus over QB's Sharpie.
Message: Posted by: Vincent V. (Feb 19, 2013 08:59AM)
Can this one bend 50 cent euros?
The other euro coins break when bending them.

If this one is upgraded so it can bend heavy metals like a 50 cent euro, I am interested.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 19, 2013 09:19AM)
I don't know - it's hard to imagine this being a drastic improvement over the QB2.

QB3 by John Sheets is in the works and due soon - to me that would be the ticket to ride.
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Feb 19, 2013 10:51AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-19 10:19, saysold1 wrote:
I don't know - it's hard to imagine this being a drastic improvement over the QB2.

QB3 by John Sheets is in the works and due soon - to me that would be the ticket to ride.
[/quote]

That's a big 10/4
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 19, 2013 11:11AM)
I guess the debates over which bender is best will always keep raging.

David Penn comes up with some cool stuff so I wish him good luck with this release, but as the old Taryton smoking ad goes - "I would rather fight than switch"
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 19, 2013 02:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-28 14:05, bonesly wrote:
[/quote]

On 2013-01-21 14:48, Jordanogrady wrote:

Coinvexed one uses 2 hands of spare change.
Coinvexed 2 uses a pen and one hand of spare change


I reckon Coinvexed 3 uses 2 pens and no change. Which is a the next logical step in the evolution of this method.
[/quote]

Yah know, if you were to paint the other half matte black with Coinvexed 2, you wouldn't really need that handful of change ;)
Message: Posted by: puggo (Feb 19, 2013 03:34PM)
I don't want to judge until I see the effect, but I am happy with, and have never had a problem with having 'a few coins' in my hand, if only to offer one of them if the spec doesn't have a coin.
Two pens... don't see the benefit myself but I'm sure this will find a lot of happy owners. I don't think I would be tempted by an upgrade pack either, although always open to new info.

Having said that, did anyone see the Spellmann bend routine on the Alakazam Vlog? unsigned, but very nicely done I thought... Kudos to Mr S.

Charlie
Message: Posted by: Jordanogrady (Feb 19, 2013 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2013-01-28 14:19, bonesly wrote:

But after years of performing the coin-bend both signed and un-signed I'm starting to think that all this signing of coins is unnecessary. Lay people still react to the effect the same way.
[/quote]

I don't personally agree with this! A signed coin is 10 times stronger!

Jordan
Message: Posted by: chappelly (Feb 19, 2013 04:47PM)
Has to be signed for maximum effect.

Otherwise there is always the thought of a switch to achieve this impossible effect.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Feb 19, 2013 04:53PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-19 16:34, puggo wrote:
I don't want to judge until I see the effect, but I am happy with, and have never had a problem with having 'a few coins' in my hand, if only to offer one of them if the spec doesn't have a coin.
Two pens... don't see the benefit myself but I'm sure this will find a lot of happy owners. I don't think I would be tempted by an upgrade pack either, although always open to new info.

Having said that, did anyone see the Spellmann bend routine on the Alakazam Vlog? unsigned, but very nicely done I thought... Kudos to Mr S.

Charlie
[/quote]

I don't see a problem with having a handful of change initially, however, by the time they are signing the coin, or at the latest when they are handing it back to you, those extra coins should be gone. There's no reason you would continue to hold a handful of change that no longer has anything to do with the effect.

As for the idea of two markers, I believe that was just speculation, and doesn't make any sense as any sort of improvement.
Message: Posted by: PWRIS (Feb 20, 2013 04:15AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-19 17:53, gdw wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-19 16:34, puggo wrote:
I don't want to judge until I see the effect, but I am happy with, and have never had a problem with having 'a few coins' in my hand, if only to offer one of them if the spec doesn't have a coin.
Two pens... don't see the benefit myself but I'm sure this will find a lot of happy owners. I don't think I would be tempted by an upgrade pack either, although always open to new info.

Having said that, did anyone see the Spellmann bend routine on the Alakazam Vlog? unsigned, but very nicely done I thought... Kudos to Mr S.

Charlie
[/quote]

I don't see a problem with having a handful of change initially, however, by the time they are signing the coin, or at the latest when they are handing it back to you, those extra coins should be gone. There's no reason you would continue to hold a handful of change that no longer has anything to do with the effect.

As for the idea of two markers, I believe that was just speculation, and doesn't make any sense as any sort of improvement.
[/quote]

Hi guys, I have had Coinvexed 2 from day 1 (almost) and I must say I carry it with me everyday. When you offer your spectator a coin from the "loose" change, you have them sign it and after taking it back you then offer them a second coin to mark (I use Zodiac signs) it is at this stage you work your magic :) and by the time they have finished the "loose" change is out of play. It is all totaly logical and I have never had a problem with it.
Oh, and who came up with the two markers idea (do they sign in stereo :))

Best Paul
Message: Posted by: puggo (Feb 20, 2013 04:21AM)
Paul summed it up well. I am definitely not saying CV2 is the 'best' etc, but would agree that with even a basic routine, there is never any issues with holding the coins as decsribed by Paul.

Others have incorporated the 'coins' gimmick into other natural-ish props e.g. coin purse, some have just a one coin routine...

Charlie
Message: Posted by: gdw (Feb 20, 2013 07:13AM)
Paul, that makes sense. I actually had started to think about that as a framing to justify still having the change.
Of course that means adding to your routine for the purposes of covering a move/prop.

I think that, as I understand things, QB is a better gaff for allowing the most direct routine and minimal extra props.

The only drawback I see is needing to switch the marker.
Message: Posted by: PWRIS (Feb 22, 2013 03:32AM)
First let me state I do not own or have seen QB in action (except on the video trailer) It would appear that with QB you take out your sharpie and have them sign the coin, you then place the sharpie back into your pocket only seconds later to take it out again, this to me seems a little suspect :) with Coinvexed the objects (Sharpie & Coins) are in full view until the "Magic" is done.

The second strong point for Coinvexed is that the "bending" takes place in the hands of the spectator both physiologicly and psycologicly (they feel the coin move 9/10 and with the smallest amount of "spectator managment" they feel it bend ! ) this to me is far stronger than having the coin bend in my hand.

As I stated in my earlier post I use a Zodiac theme, first I "divine" thier sign and then have them draw the sign on the second coin. The "power" of thier Z sign then bends the first coin.

As to minimal extra props with QB you have the coins and the sharpie ( or two ;-) ) and with Coinvexed you have the coins and the sharpie.

Please note that these are of course only my opinions based on using CV2 for several years now and as they say each to their own.

Best Paul
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 22, 2013 05:24AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-19 17:47, chappelly wrote:
Has to be signed for maximum effect.

Otherwise there is always the thought of a switch to achieve this impossible effect.
[/quote]

When I am at a gig I will occasionally use QB2, but most of the time professionally and in casual situations I will do a switch. The reactions I get for both effects are the same. Signing a coin adds another layer of impossibility to magicians but lay people don't really think like this. Its not natural to sign a coin and it adds an unnecessary step in the routine. The handling is also a lot cleaner using a switch than to use a bender.

However it does depend on your routine and how you execute your techniques. Some magicians are just not good at doing coin switches and do them at the wrong moment.
If your audience think you've switched the coin then your doing something wrong.

My switch routine involves a lighter, a pre-bent coin and a normal duplicate coin. I usually get a spectator to warm the coin in their hands and wave a lighter above the top of their hands. I grab the coin and then I do a muscle pass and afterwhich I hand them back the coin.

Most spectators are impressed with that alone and will examine the coin in more detail, which gives me more than enough time to steal the bent coin from my pocket. After a short while, I take back the coin from the spectator and do a bobo switch. The switch is covered as I say, 'Has anyone got the lighter?'. I then feel around for the lighter and remove it from my pocket, simultaneously ditching the coin.

I hand the spectator the lighter and ask the spec to ignite the flame. I then wave the coin over the flame and proceed with a visual bend 'Ta da!'.

All this happens in one smooth action and the dirty work is invisible to the audience, i.e. doesn't exist. The worst thing that I had some spectators think is that the coin is a 'special coin' and usually that's when they say, 'can I keep the coin' and that's when I say yes which really amazes them because they don't expect me magicians to give away their 'special coins'!

I guess the reason some spectators think 'trick coin' is because I am using my own coin, but the trick coin thing occurs whether I'm using a switch or a bender.

On occasions I use the QB2 just to change the routine up a little and throw off repeat viewers, but the handling isn't as clean as a switch. Sometimes I feel like I'm over proving things when using a bender.

Anyway I think the QB2 is better than the CV2 and I own both.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 22, 2013 12:26PM)
Couldn't agree more with bonesy. I will go further and say something that will make me unpopular. On WPR Craig says "anyone that says the coin doesn't need to be signed doesn't know what they are talking about". WRONG Oh the arrogance of youth. I'm not sure Craig was even born when I started doing coin bends. Anyone that thinks the coin needs to be signed doesn't know what they are doing. There I said it.

My switched coin version looks like this. Spec holds out their hand with the coin I pick the coin up from their hand and push it up to my fingertips while telling them to watch it closely. I ask the spectator to roll up my sleeves for me while not letting the coin out of their sight. The coin then visibly bends. It then drops into their waiting hand and my hands are cleanly shown empty and my sleeves are rolled up. I originally did a double switch version where I made a small nick in the edge of my pre-bent coin and took some brasso and made a light patch on the coin. I then took an identical coin with the same date and made the same nick and same light patch. I would then borrow the coin, switch it for my dupe then hand it back and say "before we start check the date, in fact study it and remember any distinguishing marks that make this coin unique".

While they are studying the coin and noting my little nick and light patch I have all the time in the world to ditch their coin and set up for the second switch. From this point the routine continued as per my original description. I scrapped the extra switch it simply wasn't needed, the clean handling, the fact that I ended clean with empty hands and sleeves rolled up and the fact that in their mind the coin never ever left their sight (it does for a fraction of a second as you lift it off their hand but its a fraction of a second followed by "don't let this coin leave your sight, not even for a second". This is reinforced throughout the routine and even if logic tells them that it had to be a switch it couldn't be because "it never left my sight, not even for a second". Lets also not forget that with the visual bend they actually watch the coin bend.

The only time I have ever been accused of using a switch is when using a signed coin because as bonesy said, the bender version isn't as clean. I use the bender version when the borrowed coin is not even a close match for my coin. Two things you should never under-estimate, the intelligence of your spectators, and their stupidity. Generally it is their intelligence that will work for you, and more often than not their stupidity is what works against you. Structure your routine and handling to use the spectators intelligence to lead them to the conclusion you need them to make. When you simply assume that they are intelligent enought to arrive at that conclusion on their own their stupidity will bite you on the bum.

Genuine spectators explanation of signed coin bend, you transferred the mark onto your thumb and finger, then somehow swapped the coin and finally squeezed the coin between your thumb and finger to get it on the other coin. I then pointed out that I had no ink on my fingers. His response was priceless "I don't know how you got the ink off your fingers, that part I can't figure out and so it's really impressive but I'm right about the rest".

Bottom line is that a signature is an easy way to rule out a switch but proper routining and good technique are the best way to rule out the switch (and this is just as necessary when using a signature). Magic isn't just about sleights and methods it's also about understanding the spectators, the effect as you want the spectator to perceive and how to manipulate both the spectator and structure of the effect (including any weaknesses you need to overcome) to ensure their perception is the one you intended to create.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Feb 22, 2013 01:02PM)
There are many ways to perform the bent coin. If what you do works, that's a great testimony that no one can disclaim. I do QB2 just like John Sheets and it kills. The signed coin, can't get better. Going to the pocket is never, ever seen or an issue and this after 1000's of performances. As I said, boils down to personal preference. Only magicians create problems. I've been performing a long time and I never think spectators are stupid, however; they are not as smart as we think. If you give them a reason to go exploring, look out. I remember working a trade show performing the linking rings which I normally don't do. I had about 500 people at the booth when a heckler wanted to see the rings. I obliged him, he saw nothing, and he became the fool. When performing, don't think, be natural and nothing will be seen.

Best
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Feb 24, 2013 09:01AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-22 13:26, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
Genuine spectators explanation of signed coin bend, you transferred the mark onto your thumb and finger, then somehow swapped the coin and finally squeezed the coin between your thumb and finger to get it on the other coin. I then pointed out that I had no ink on my fingers. His response was priceless "I don't know how you got the ink off your fingers, that part I can't figure out and so it's really impressive but I'm right about the rest".

[/quote]

lol. Some people will go to great trouble to connect the dots in their mind.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 24, 2013 10:17AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-22 04:32, PWRIS wrote:
First let me state I do not own or have seen QB in action (except on the video trailer) It would appear that with QB you take out your sharpie and have them sign the coin, you then place the sharpie back into your pocket only seconds later to take it out again, this to me seems a little suspect :) with Coinvexed the objects (Sharpie & Coins) are in full view until the "Magic" is done.

The second strong point for Coinvexed is that the "bending" takes place in the hands of the spectator both physiologicly and psycologicly (they feel the coin move 9/10 and with the smallest amount of "spectator managment" they feel it bend ! ) this to me is far stronger than having the coin bend in my hand.

As I stated in my earlier post I use a Zodiac theme, first I "divine" thier sign and then have them draw the sign on the second coin. The "power" of thier Z sign then bends the first coin.

As to minimal extra props with QB you have the coins and the sharpie ( or two ;-) ) and with Coinvexed you have the coins and the sharpie.

Please note that these are of course only my opinions based on using CV2 for several years now and as they say each to their own.

Best Paul
[/quote]

Just to be clear, with the QB you not take the Sharpie out twice. At least in my routining the sharpie is used once and taken back, then held by performer...then pocketed for good. All movements are justified.

#2... The in hand coin bend is equally possible with QB and equally effective.
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Feb 24, 2013 02:56PM)
Pocket Managment say for a guy in jeans?
Message: Posted by: puggo (Feb 24, 2013 03:24PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-24 15:56, paisa23 wrote:
Pocket Managment say for a guy in jeans?
[/quote]

Some change & gimmick rear or front left hand pocket, Sharpie in RH left or front pocket. Total space used = very little.
Room for wallet, pack of cards if required and possibly a small marsupial if needed (avoid kangaroos).
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 24, 2013 05:05PM)
The CV2 takes up minimal pocket space. However, prop management with the QB2 is slightly better since only one prop is actually gimmicked.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 24, 2013 06:26PM)
Not used cv but as benders go the QB2 is hard to beat. Coin signed, pen put away, empty hands, short sleeves, coin bends, job done.
Message: Posted by: PWRIS (Feb 25, 2013 02:31AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-24 11:17, saysold1 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-22 04:32, PWRIS wrote:
First let me state I do not own or have seen QB in action (except on the video trailer) It would appear that with QB you take out your sharpie and have them sign the coin, you then place the sharpie back into your pocket only seconds later to take it out again, this to me seems a little suspect :) with Coinvexed the objects (Sharpie & Coins) are in full view until the "Magic" is done.

The second strong point for Coinvexed is that the "bending" takes place in the hands of the spectator both physiologicly and psycologicly (they feel the coin move 9/10 and with the smallest amount of "spectator managment" they feel it bend ! ) this to me is far stronger than having the coin bend in my hand.

As I stated in my earlier post I use a Zodiac theme, first I "divine" thier sign and then have them draw the sign on the second coin. The "power" of thier Z sign then bends the first coin.

As to minimal extra props with QB you have the coins and the sharpie ( or two ;-) ) and with Coinvexed you have the coins and the sharpie.

Please note that these are of course only my opinions based on using CV2 for several years now and as they say each to their own.

Best Paul
[/quote]

Just to be clear, with the QB you not take the Sharpie out twice. At least in my routining the sharpie is used once and taken back, then held by performer...then pocketed for good. All movements are justified.

#2... The in hand coin bend is equally possible with QB and equally effective.
[/quote]

If you have worked out a method to do this it sounds very good. As I stated, I can only go by what I have seen in the official video and of course the Sharpie has to be exc..... With CV2 all items are in play until you have done what you need to do :) i.e no extra moves.

#2... I think this would not be a problem more than a routining issue.

Best Paul
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 25, 2013 05:27AM)
The problem with a video is that it can't misdirect. In the real world there is ample misdirection to switch the pen for the gimmick. Once they hand back the pen it becomes a dead object and their focus is on the coin not the pen. I ask them to blow on the coin and make sure the ink is dry while I do the switch.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 09:03AM)
I do the exact same thing Mark, I ask them to blow on it to make sure it's dry and in that split second, I'm gtg! Also, the QB3 is priced at an unheard of $350!!!!! It's mentioned over in the Tricks and Effects section, might be worth a look for those who've always wanted a Quantum Bender, but couldn't afford the $500-$600 at the time and want to try an alternative method. And the Energy Benders are awesome for restaurant workers!

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=203325&forum=109&start=810
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Feb 25, 2013 01:04PM)
Thanks for the info lunatik. I've started a new thread reference QB3 on this forum in order to keep this thread on topic.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=501758&forum=218&0
Message: Posted by: bevbevvybev (Feb 25, 2013 01:29PM)
I bend coins quite often. I wrote a book about it.
Message: Posted by: magicbyfish (Feb 25, 2013 01:31PM)
Cv3?????????
oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ,, its a darker black !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it fits both ends !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES MY FRIENDS ,THATS IT ! oh yeah theres a dvd with some nice routines in it

but of course cv2 is not being made now, so make of that what you will

comes under the heading of big fecking whoopee flipping dooppeee !
(tho I guess at least wms are trying to bring out new things for conventions which is soemthing)

anyway I think ill go find a wheelchair and wait for the call......
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Feb 25, 2013 01:45PM)
Still interested in CV3 I'm sorry but QB is Way too expensive for me although it is a pretty sweet and amazing tool that gets the job done. Again those that have seen my page know that I'm not doing this professionally right now, but I have in the past. QB2, CV 1-2-3, Pre work and all other methods all (IN MY OPINION) look the same to the spectator. As in it shouldn't look like anything happen except with you mind. So I came to the conclusion that I don't want to do the Pre work version anymore just for impromptu purposes, I would like to make it a little Easier for me the magician so I'm curious about CV 3. Solely for performing purposes and routining but I think that probably the highest I would justify this genre of effect should cost. Now don't get me wrong as for the forever shockingly sold out QB2 it's an amazing method. And I understand that some would want to protect their invention and limit others using it cause were magicians and sometimes want things to ourselves. By all means I agree but if the outcome is still the same using the above mentioned methods then that lessens the protection needed of the tool. ALL OF THIS IS IN MY HONEST OPINION! THAT IS ALL...

But I am more concerned with what the guys from Blackpool have to say about this being there and seeing it. So let's hear more reviews both pos/neg comparisons to CV 2 and so on....
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (Feb 25, 2013 02:17PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 14:31, magicbyfish wrote:
Cv3?????????
oooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ,, its a darker black !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it fits both ends !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YES MY FRIENDS ,THATS IT ! oh yeah theres a dvd with some nice routines in it

but of course cv2 is not being made now, so make of that what you will

comes under the heading of big fecking whoopee flipping dooppeee !
(tho I guess at least wms are trying to bring out new things for conventions which is soemthing)

anyway I think ill go find a wheelchair and wait for the call......
[/quote]


Why say anything at all.

I have CV2 and will be getting CV3 for sure.
Message: Posted by: Blindside785 (Feb 25, 2013 03:19PM)
Screw it, I'm just gonna get CV3. I know QB3 is coming out. But in the spectators mind, it works out in the end just the same.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 25, 2013 03:53PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 16:19, Blindside785 wrote:
Screw it, I'm just gonna get CV3. I know QB3 is coming out. But in the spectators mind, it works out in the end just the same.
[/quote]

Yup, as does pre-b's regardless of what Craig says (presentation plays a more important role in selling it than the method used, I've seen plenty of times when a signed bend is questioned by specs to being a sw***h as well as pre-b's being a sw***h, always due to the fault of the presentation rather than the method) :P
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 04:24PM)
Exactly, ease of use, effeciency, superior design is what you're paying for. A manual typewriter produces the same document as computer, but which one is easier to type with and make adjustments? Hence the QB will always be the Rolls Royce of coin benders everytime!
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 25, 2013 04:46PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 17:24, lunatik wrote:
Exactly, ease of use, effeciency, superior design is what you're paying for. A manual typewriter produces the same document as computer, but which one is easier to type with and make adjustments? Hence the QB will always be the Rolls Royce of coin benders everytime!
[/quote]

Lol. This would be a good analogy if the problem wasn't that these are essentially different methods to an effect where the method is completely irrelevant whilst the presentation makes all the difference. Only the magician will ever be giddy knowing what he/she is using. So much money for the privilege is easily questionable for some and hilarious for others :P To each his/her own I guess.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 05:37PM)
My thoughts are that if a utility device makes it easier to perform the effect, I will pay the premium for that luxury.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 25, 2013 06:14PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 18:37, lunatik wrote:
My thoughts are that if a utility device makes it easier to perform the effect, I will pay the premium for that luxury.
[/quote]

If you want simplicity, old school pre-b sw***h is the way to go. It's the window dressing in the presentation that sells the effect. The actual bent coin is essentially the end product of the demonstration but what you're really trying to sell here is the demonstration itself. Mentalists mostl understand this whilst magicians look at it as just a magic trick and focus way too much on the actual bent coin and how to bend it.

Like I've mentioned somewhere, I've seen both signed coin bends and non-signed coin bends result in similar responses from the audience which was that they assume a switch was done, each and every time this is due to the poor presentation and the poor selling of the plot.

Uri Gellar was a master at selling the premise whilst his methods were rudimentary even back in those days, yet it's far harder to convince people that Gellar was not real more than anything else.

As for you calling QB a utility device, it's actually not. It's just one method to a variety of methods available that would do the job just as well but the QB does give the user the satisfaction of being so sneaky but at the end of the day, it's just a method that really isn't worse than or better than many different methods for the same effect. A lot of people keep coming back to "hey, it needs to be signed to really sell it!" Well, do you see metal benders running around going "forks really have to be signed or else the effect isn't as good!" ?
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 06:55PM)
Most magicians would prefer their coins to be marked so as to negate the spectator backtracking in their mind how it happened. The quicker you discredit a method, the better. there is no 'sneaky' feeling as you put it, it's the fact that it makes the 'work' happen easier for me. like I mentioned earlier, manual typewriter or computer. I'd prefer to use a computer these days than work harder to get the same product. I'd rather use a QB than to bobo switch it or a CV that is less streamlined. Like you mentioned earlier, to each his own. I'd rather work smarter than harder, but that's my opinion.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 25, 2013 07:03PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 19:55, lunatik wrote:
Most magicians would prefer their coins to be marked so as to negate the spectator backtracking in their mind how it happened. The quicker you discredit a method, the better. there is no 'sneaky' feeling as you put it, it's the fact that it makes the 'work' happen easier for me. like I mentioned earlier, manual typewriter or computer. I'd prefer to use a computer these days than work harder to get the same product. I'd rather use a QB than to bobo switch it or a CV that is less streamlined. Like you mentioned earlier, to each his own. I'd rather work smarter than harder, but that's my opinion.
[/quote]

See, you're already off to the wrong approach to coin bends and falling into the magician thinking trap. All you have to do to negate any thought that there is a switch involved is to get the spectator to confirm that he/she felt something. You can use many different ploys to get him/her to confirm or you can use the myriad of ploys to give the impression that the spectator has confirmed feeling something. At the moment he/she confirms feeling something, you need to monetize on that moment and milk it a little. The only memory your audience will be left with is that moment and their imaginations will run wild. All that is left is the reveal of the bent coin to confirm that the moment truly did happen.

So you're actually not working smarter and instead working harder and less effective. Like I said, for coin bends, the method to achieve it isn't really relevant, it's all on selling the plot. The bent coin left at the end is only their to confirm that the premise you were selling actually occurred. The coin is inconsequential, what you're selling is the premise of you being able to use psychokinesis yourself or able to get your spec to channel psychokinesis.

This is the reason why there's such a huge difference between magician thinking and mentalist thinking. Magicians tend to forget that the moment is usually much stronger than the end outcome of the effect whilst mentalists understand that the end results is only an affirmation of the premise and moment they are trying to sell.

End of the day, you're presentation and sell of the premise discredits any backtracking or guessing at solutions by your audience. If they end up thinking about it like a puzzle, it's entirely the fault of the performer not having a good presentation and framing for the effect. Any kind of metal bending is a demonstration of psychokinesis, you're selling the idea that psychokinesis rather than selling the idea that you've bent a object. End of the day the impression you are aiming for here is not that you can bend silverware or coins but that you can manipulate objects with your mind alone. That is the point of metal bending.

But hey, this is just my view/suggestions/advice. To each his/her own as they say ;)
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 07:19PM)
You can and should definitely 'aim' for the best outcome, but don't discredit your spectators, they're as dumb as some mentalists or magicians think. I personally use Skin for presentation and it has served me well as I know how to milk it. If one is old school and only use billets and prebent coins, that's perfectly fine, I'm sure they get mileage. But if one uses a Mindpad or a Coinvexed or QB so they can concentrate more on the presentation than the method, more power to him. That's the path a lot of us have chosen and there's nothing wrong with it if we choose to pay the premium to do so.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 25, 2013 07:32PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 20:19, lunatik wrote:
You can and should definitely 'aim' for the best outcome, but don't discredit your spectators, they're as dumb as some mentalists or magicians think. I personally use Skin for presentation and it has served me well as I know how to milk it. If one is old school and only use billets and prebent coins, that's perfectly fine, I'm sure they get mileage. But if one uses a Mindpad or a Coinvexed or QB so they can concentrate more on the presentation than the method, more power to him. That's the path a lot of us have chosen and there's nothing wrong with it if we choose to pay the premium to do so.
[/quote]

Not treating the audience as dummies at all. It's just after years of playing with coin bends and then putting in a lot of work with Luke Jermay's Hot Ring routine, I've learned why something like the bent coin is so strong and how to sell it so that it's as strong of an effect as possible. You should pick up Building Blocks and read the Hot Ring section, Skin basically just lifted that entire routine and used a bent coin instead but the Skin video did a horrible job at teaching you how to manage the audience to always get the result you want without fail (though truthfully, Building Blocks doesn't explain this but I've mixed in some hypnosis ploys and came up with basically a no fail success rate on getting them to feel and acknowledge all the suggestions you are feeding them).

As for your point about concentrating on the method rather than the presentation, that's a silly argument. Bad execution and lack of practice is bad execution and lack of practice. This also extends to the QB. Heck, from a method point of view, there's a LOT less to mess up or get hung up on with the pre-b method than there is with any of the live bend methods. I mean seriously, if you can't execute a f***e p*t or a f***e t**e or a f***e tr*****r, you have much bigger things to be concerned about than the best method for a coin bend. There is essentially no concern about worrying about handling, if you can't do something as if it was second nature, you should really not be performing it.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 25, 2013 07:46PM)
I'll look into picking up Building Blocks, I'm sure there are some great things to pick up. On the other point, I was saying presentation could be more easily focused on if the method is easier and less concentration on it is needed.
Message: Posted by: NeilS (Feb 27, 2013 07:44AM)
A little while ago I had a coin bender but it took so much effort and exertion I got rid of it. As I am currently considering getting a new coin bender, for those who use Coinvexed 2/3, is there still a fair bit of exertion necessary or does the gimmick make things much easier? Or if there are any other recommendations, I'd be interested.

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Steven Conner (Feb 27, 2013 08:45AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 16:53, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 16:19, Blindside785 wrote:
Screw it, I'm just gonna get CV3. I know QB3 is coming out. But in the spectators mind, it works out in the end just the same.
[/quote]

Yup, as does pre-b's regardless of what Craig says (presentation plays a more important role in selling it than the method used, I've seen plenty of times when a signed bend is questioned by specs to being a sw***h as well as pre-b's being a sw***h, always due to the fault of the presentation rather than the method) :P
[/quote]

A signed bend being sw***h is rather funny. Perhaps another trick ought to be done. That would have to be the worse presentation ever.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 10:09AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 09:45, Steven Conner wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 16:53, kissdadookie wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-25 16:19, Blindside785 wrote:
Screw it, I'm just gonna get CV3. I know QB3 is coming out. But in the spectators mind, it works out in the end just the same.
[/quote]

Yup, as does pre-b's regardless of what Craig says (presentation plays a more important role in selling it than the method used, I've seen plenty of times when a signed bend is questioned by specs to being a sw***h as well as pre-b's being a sw***h, always due to the fault of the presentation rather than the method) :P
[/quote]

A signed bend being sw***h is rather funny. Perhaps another trick ought to be done. That would have to be the worse presentation ever.
[/quote]

Not at all. The reason spectator's many times will conclude that a sw***h was used to do the signed coin bend is due to the presentation focussing on the coin itself rather than on the premise of pk. When your focus is on the actual bend or the actual object, what you end up doing is creating a challenge situation for some of your audience. You end up with a situation that ends up being a question rather than an experience. The question here is that you have an object which is in one state one moment and then revealed in another state the next. It becomes a puzzle in which they will naturally try to figure out solutions for. There is no end to a lay person's speculations thus in magic, being as clean and invisible as possible is something that is greatly desired because many magical effects are essentially puzzle-like in nature. There's always this question of "how did he/she do that?" In mentalism, you have a lot more leeway because of the nature of mentalism. Mysticism and superstition has been around for a long long time. It's far easier to get people to believe in hypnosis for instance than it is for them to believe in actual magic. Due to the nature of bending metal, using the premise of pk is actually highly believable but again, you have to focus on the premise of pk rather than on the object or the outcome of the object. It's much more important to get your audience caught up in the moment, spark their imagination for that moment of pk, with the bent object being nothing more than a reminder that the moment actually occurred.

Thus again, I urge people to pick up Building Blocks and read through the Hot Ring section. You will see that in that routine, nothing actually ever changes to the object and the entire thing stands or falls on how you sell the various moments. In essence, that is a routine which takes place ENTIRELY within the imagination of your audience. What I did with it years ago (roughly 8 years or so I would say) was that I used a pre-b coin in place of the borrowed ring in the routine so that the spec can have a nice souvenir and also to give me a better kicker ending (but I've also done it with pretty much any small borrowed object, if it's a small borrowed object, I don't even touch it myself, it's completely hands off).

Again, you can perform coin bends "magician" style which is perfectly fine, you will still have a nice effect, but it's so much stronger when you approach the effect by focussing on the premise of pk rather than focussing on the object and the outcome of the object.
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (Feb 27, 2013 11:12AM)
[quote]presentation could be more easily focused on if the method is easier and less concentration on it is needed.[/quote]

If you have to concentrate on your method then it isn't ready to be shown to the public. You either have your methods mastered or not.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 11:20AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 12:12, bdekolta wrote:
[quote]presentation could be more easily focused on if the method is easier and less concentration on it is needed.[/quote]

If you have to concentrate on your method then it isn't ready to be shown to the public. You either have your methods mastered or not.
[/quote]

Completely agree with this ESPECIALLY when the method for a pre-b is a simple f***e p*t/t*k*/tr****er. If you can not perform such ridiculously easy, fundamental/basic sleights, you shouldn't be concerned about what method to use for a coin bend. Do not start running before you've learned how to walk, do not start walking if you have not learned how to stand.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 11:57AM)
I've been running for years. Back to the original analogy, manual type writer or computer? I'll stick with my computer. And please don't say that this doesn't apply because it does! Just like a lot of the electronic effects out there. Show me your argument with those as well. I think we see a pattern of not liking to take hold of advancements. And that's ok if you want to perform that way
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 12:13PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 12:57, lunatik wrote:
I've been running for years. Back to the original analogy, manual type writer or computer? I'll stick with my computer. And please don't say that this doesn't apply because it does! Just like a lot of the electronic effects out there. Show me your argument with those as well. I think we see a pattern of not liking to take hold of advancements. And that's ok if you want to perform that way
[/quote]

Some methods for some effects improve the actual effect. However, for coin bends, this is simply a question of preference as to which method to use. One is honestly really not any better than the other since the effect again, is very dependent on you selling the moment and the premise of PK, the actual object being manipulated should be irrelevant if performed properly for the greatest impact.

Lastly, your comparison of the coin bend methods available to the different ways one can write a book actually contradicts your argument for QB being superior. Why? Because the different methods of writing a book is really about efficiency for getting the work done. If you want to discus the most EFFICIENT method for a coin bend, it's going to be a pre-b, hands down. That's the most direct method for a coin bend routine. It requires the least props. It is the most direct. The entire routine is focused on presentation. There's barely any handling involved (seriously, your argument about the QB allowing the performer to focus more on presentation rather than handling doesn't make any sense because executing a f**se p*t/t*k*/t*****er is actually much easier and streamlined that the entire ordeal of having a coin signed, ringing in the tool, doing the move, etc.). Again, THE COIN BEING SIGNED OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT. The object is irrelevant. The outcome of the object is really irrelevant. What is relevant is selling and milking the moment of PK and that is ENTIRELY dependent on you feeding that idea to your audience and making sure that your audience goes with it and starts getting really creative in their own imaginations (and again, all you need to achieve this is for you to get your spec to confirm that they have felt something strange and milk that moment a bit or at least leave the impression that the spec confirms he/she has felt something strange, your audience is not going to be able to backtrack to a method because at that point, NOBODY can dispute that the spec felt something and that spec feeling something is all that matters, the reveal is nothing more than a confirmation of the moment happening).

I totally understand why you feel so strongly about the QB or something like the CV is superior, because from all the back and forth discussions about coin bends with you throughout the years (I recall it being years at this point), your interpretation of coin bends has always been treating it as an isolated effect in which the most important thing is that bent coin at the end thus you give a lot of importance to the method for achieving the bend, however, most mentalists will tell you otherwise and that really shows you the difference between mentalism and magic in broad terms. I mean if the method was so important, Uri Gellar would not have gotten away with most of the things he has gotten away with as he used some of the most basic and rudimentary methods in the history of mentalism, but as we can all see, he was seen to be the real thing, why, because he understood that selling the moment and the premise was far more important than the end effect. If you look at the way Yigal Miseka performs, he's also similar in the way he treats effects, he milks the moments for all it's worth even when nothing is happening and THAT is what elevates the effects, not the actual outcomes of the effects themselves (the outcomes of these effects are again, just confirmations of the moment happening, the moment itself however, that's mostly psychological build up in the minds of the audience).

For further reference, watch Yigal Miseka's Loops DVDs. A lot of people yawned watching those videos because they were looking for fancy new methods or techniques, but IMHO, the true value of those videos was to learn and analyze Yigal's performances because there was so much subtlety in his performances and every time he really sells the magic is when basically nothing really happens, yet it's in these moments where the entire routine really shines.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 01:01PM)
Some really great posts, presentation and method are both important and as methods go pre b's allow for a far cleaner presentation. Any way you slice it benders require cover for the bend. Now with QB2 that cover is short but it's there. With a pre b there are countless clean switches including the TKO 2. But the best way to sell the effect is for the spectator to experience the moment the coin bends. Show an unbent coin then a while later show a bent one and the spectator will naturally assume it's not the same coin. If on the other hand the spectator experiences the coin bending, whether through a visual bend or through feeling it bend in their hand then a switch isn't a consideration, it was straight and I watched it bend before my very eyes.

I love my QB but with the QB, and as far as I know this is also true of the CV too, the coin is out of the spectators view for far longer than I would like. The longer the coin is out of the spectators view the more chance of them backtracking and thinking you did something. For me as benders go the QB is my favourite because the deed is done very quickly with most coins (although some of the euro coins take some bending. The advantage of the pre b is that the switch I use it is done as I lift the coin off the spectators hand and takes less than a fraction of a second. The moment I lift the coin from the spectators palm the method is over and I'm free to concentrate solely on method.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 01:38PM)
Dookie, you are misguided. A pre-bend's effeciency is COMPLETELY thrown out the window when they noticed that the California coin they gave you is now Oregon! Nothing wrong with you using Buiding Blocks as I'm using some of Skins techniques. I think all of your arguments on this specific subject belong in Penny IMO. There are magicians and mentalists reading this thread and neither side is likely to change their performances
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 02:44PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 14:38, lunatik wrote:
Dookie, you are misguided. A pre-bend's effeciency is COMPLETELY thrown out the window when they noticed that the California coin they gave you is now Oregon! Nothing wrong with you using Buiding Blocks as I'm using some of Skins techniques. I think all of your arguments on this specific subject belong in Penny IMO. There are magicians and mentalists reading this thread and neither side is likely to change their performances
[/quote]

What part of the coin/object being irrelevant did you not understand? Whoever came up with the notion that the only coins one should bend are quarters? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?!? Misguided? It's not that I'm misguided, it's that you really are showing your complete lack of thought into this subject matter. You essentially have demonstrated your complete lack of understanding what makes the effect strong and treated it as nothing more than a simple magic trick. That's all fine and dandy but you're completely short changing the true potential effectiveness of coin bends.

Hell, I've mostly used nickels or pennies as that's what I usually have prepared. Even if all I have were quarters, the simple matter of asking your specs to each take out some change and dump them on to a table or what not as you pick a coin up for the demonstration is perfectly fine. The way I have my coins set up, I am able to actually leave the coin in the spectator's open hands with the coin in full view for a few beats giving the illusion that I've never went near the coin.

THERE ARE MANY WAYS to approach a coin bend but the KEY is that the coin nor the bend is really all that important. It's the PREMISE of PK that you are selling and milking. The end results is just a little token reminder of the moments they have experienced.

So please explain how I am misguided? It appears to me and I'm sure many others that I'm the one here that actually placed a lot of thought and experimentation into both the methods to use as well as the presentation to a coin bend routine. It really sounds like all you did was went out to buy some commercially available method and then just went by the books with what the instructions told you. It has been at least 2 years since this thread in which I've had this same coin bend discussion with you and it appears that you have yet to put much thought into coin bend routines since then.

I mean seriously, the fact that you actually posed the question "what if they have a different state quarter from yours?!?" is very telling at how little thought you've put into this subject matter. Especially when this is such a simple non-issue to overcome. It's also telling how you've brought up that you've learned how to present coin bends from Skin when Skin is actually pretty terrible at explaining why what is being taught is important (thus the reason why I keep referencing Hot Ring in Building Blocks, which is essentially what Skin is completely based on to the T, but in Building Blocks it's fully explained why each element is important since the entire Hot Ring routine explained in it wasn't really the highlight but instead, the routine was explained in order to explain the importance of the principles which Jermay was trying to teach the readers). Like I've mentioned, everything you have been saying and using as your points for discussion here points to a very simple fact that you've basically purchased commercial effects and methods and just used them verbatim without placing much thought into them. It's fine and dandy, it does get the job done, but using that as your basis of argument about how CV and QB is superior is just pure nonsense because all they are essentially are different methods to achieve a coin bend but they are neither superior or inferior to the various other methods to achieve a coin bend. If anything, in regards to EFFICIENCY, they are a lot less efficient and a lot less streamlined than a pre-b.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 04:56PM)
Dookie, you're still clueless. Just because you write your usual 10 page dissertation on your stance, does no way invalidate anyone else performance of the effect, is that tooooooooo hard for you to understand? Apparently it is. There are many pro's that completely disagree with you and prove it by how they perform a coin bend. Is that ok with you??? Apparently not. Get off your high horse thinking that you have the most pimp coin bend routine in the entire world, YOU DON'T!! The things I pulled off of Skin have worked perfectly for me, please tell my specs that have screamed, cursed and kept their bent coin all these years that it was a flop. So now you use a nickel or penny to cover your shortcomings....good job of making an excuse once again.

And many years past, all you do is blather and blather and blather on about how great your coin bend routine is. Who the H*ll cares how great you think it is? NO ONE CARES! In fact, hardly anyone cares because they're not responding to your posts, just like they didn't years ago..Don't you get a hint? No one cares about your routine LOL. What you CANNOT comprehend is that anyone performing a coin bend routine wants a method in which to do so. Some want to do a switch and some want to use a device to facilitate the bend. NEITHER IS WRONG!! KAPEEEESH!?!? If I want to use 2 pairs of pliers up my sleeves, so be it. If I want use a Superman, so be it. If I want to use CV, so be it. If I want to use a QB, so be it!!!!!! Slam people all you want on their routine and you just continue to look like the backside of a donkey. Most don't want to waste their time telling you because your set in your ways. By spectator reactions, is your routine good? I'm sure it is. By spectator reactions, is my routine good? Yes it it. By spectator reactions, are most working pro's getting good reactions that have no foundation based on Jermay's Hot Ring? Yes they do. Sooo, that leads us to come to a conclusion that there are many routines out there that get many great reactions and memories for our spectators. Kapeesh?

So please blather on with another 20 page dissertation on how your routine is the schiznit and how jermay is the final authority on all coin bending, and how we're all clueless people that look for the latest and greatest. blah blah blah....This is why I missed you for a couple of years lol
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 05:16PM)
Yawn. Lunatik, multiple people now on this thread and others have already pointed out how the method really is irrelevant for the coin bend. What do you do? Run around fooling magicians all the time thus always on the look out for the greatest method known to mankind? It's quite obvious that you simply have no clue as to what I and others are trying to tell you but ignorance is bliss isn't it? To each his/her own. Knowledgeable people whom understands where the power of coin bend and metal bending routines are in will understand, you can just continue on with your ignorance to stop for moment to think about what others are trying to show you for your own benefit.

Heck, you don't even know what the Hot Ring is for goodness sakes. You think that it's just another routine, like I've been trying to explain numerous times to you already, that routine was used for no other purpose than to teach what suggestions are, how powerful they are, and how to use them. That's the only reason the Hot Ring is in there. You may get good reactions but that is your major flaw, you stop at just the good reactions. You have not bothered to think about why those reactions occur, what the psychology is from the spectator's POV. Like I said, you've done nothing more here than buy a commercial effect and follow the instructions without thinking about any of it. That works fine and dandy but it puts you in absolutely no position to tell people how the method is so important here. All you know is your one learned off a video routine and arm and a leg priced method. Until you've actually bothered to put in the work far and beyond just following some pre-made instructions, your comments essentially hold absolutely no weight.

Lastly, it's absolutely asinine that you are now trying to tell me that I'm slamming a method. I have never done so on this thread. I've made it extremely clear that the method really is irrelevant for the coin bend, you however have been going on and on about how superior CV and QB is. Seriously, do you not bother to think before you speak? You're the one slamming things left and right and now all of a sudden your finger pointing at me? Are you seriously this deluded?

As a note on your mention of the Superman. You silly monkey, you do realize that method is a perfectly fine method but it's the routine taught that is complete garbage, I hope that you do realize that. A routine and method is two different things, but it appears that you can't even comprehend that very simple fact. As for your idiotic comment about how people are just not bothering to tell me off because they don't want to waste time, have you not noticed how basically nobody else has bothered to come on here and comment about your posts in this thread yet there's a few whom have already posted and have essentially supported my point that the method is essentially irrelevant for the coin bend and it's the moment and premise of PK that you are trying to sell here, not a silly parlor trick of "hey look, see the coin is bent now!" Yeah, you might get good reactions, but still doesn't change the fact that you are clueless as to why you are getting those reactions. See, the ultimate point to be made here is that you constantly go on and on about how great QB is but you always manage to fail at explain how it provides a better ROUTINE.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 05:39PM)
Ditto.

My coin bend cost me 10p. It works really well. I will sell you the secret for £1,000,000 of gold bullion.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 05:42PM)
What part of GREAT reactions do you not understand? You are completely delusional that Hot Ring is the best thing since sliced bread!!!!! It isn't!!! Get off Jermay's nugz! You've never seen my performance or routine nor the GREAT REACTIONS that I get. Pull your head out of your hind quarters and comprehend what I'm saying, THERE ARE OTHER ROUTINES THAT ARE NOT BASED ON HOT RING AND THEY ARE WORKING PERFECTLY FOR MANY PROFESSIONALS! They don't use the premise of PK and they get AWESOME REACTIONS!! Kapeeeesh? I'm sure when you perform, women are ripping their clothes off, men are banging their heads on the pavement in disbelief by what they saw..*rolls eyes* The premise behind Hot Ring IS NOT THE FINAL SAY IN COIN BENDING, I hate to break that to you, but someone has to tell you. Please address the inadequacy behind you using pennies and nickels, please do make an excuse as to why you won't use the spec's only coin on him, his california coin which he insists that you use. Please enlighten us oh great one!

And as for a person who 'supported' your view, hardly, re-read it lol. And if I was allowed to post the PM's that I've received from others, you'd see that you're opinion isn't worth that much. They've said that it might be if it were not on a bending device thread, but on coin bending in general down on Inner Thoughts. That's the place for your thoughts on this, not here. Go down there and we'll continue or shut up.

P.S. How about we ask Jermay to get his opinion on this and ask him if he thinks the premise of his Hot Ring is the be all, end all of routines? You ok with that? Or will you finally concede that there are OTHER routines that do not use any sort of PK psychology in their routines and that they are great routines?
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 27, 2013 05:53PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 14:01, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
Some really great posts, presentation and method are both important and as methods go pre b's allow for a far cleaner presentation. Any way you slice it benders require cover for the bend. Now with QB2 that cover is short but it's there. With a pre b there are countless clean switches including the TKO 2. But the best way to sell the effect is for the spectator to experience the moment the coin bends. Show an unbent coin then a while later show a bent one and the spectator will naturally assume it's not the same coin. If on the other hand the spectator experiences the coin bending, whether through a visual bend or through feeling it bend in their hand then a switch isn't a consideration, it was straight and I watched it bend before my very eyes.

I love my QB but with the QB, and as far as I know this is also true of the CV too, the coin is out of the spectators view for far longer than I would like. The longer the coin is out of the spectators view the more chance of them backtracking and thinking you did something. For me as benders go the QB is my favourite because the deed is done very quickly with most coins (although some of the euro coins take some bending. The advantage of the pre b is that the switch I use it is done as I lift the coin off the spectators hand and takes less than a fraction of a second. The moment I lift the coin from the spectators palm the method is over and I'm free to concentrate solely on method.
[/quote]

With QB the coin is never out of the spectator's view because the spectator is typically averting their eyes for a moment - so that moment does not exit even for a split second in the mond of the spectator imo. Unless of course you are burning your own hands. Out of sight - out of mind. QB allows things to happen very quickly.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 06:26PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 18:42, lunatik wrote:
What part of GREAT reactions do you not understand? You are completely delusional that Hot Ring is the best thing since sliced bread!!!!! It isn't!!! Get off Jermay's nugz! You've never seen my performance or routine nor the GREAT REACTIONS that I get. Pull your head out of your hind quarters and comprehend what I'm saying, THERE ARE OTHER ROUTINES THAT ARE NOT BASED ON HOT RING AND THEY ARE WORKING PERFECTLY FOR MANY PROFESSIONALS! They don't use the premise of PK and they get AWESOME REACTIONS!! Kapeeeesh? I'm sure when you perform, women are ripping their clothes off, men are banging their heads on the pavement in disbelief by what they saw..*rolls eyes* The premise behind Hot Ring IS NOT THE FINAL SAY IN COIN BENDING, I hate to break that to you, but someone has to tell you. Please address the inadequacy behind you using pennies and nickels, please do make an excuse as to why you won't use the spec's only coin on him, his california coin which he insists that you use. Please enlighten us oh great one!

And as for a person who 'supported' your view, hardly, re-read it lol. And if I was allowed to post the PM's that I've received from others, you'd see that you're opinion isn't worth that much. They've said that it might be if it were not on a bending device thread, but on coin bending in general down on Inner Thoughts. That's the place for your thoughts on this, not here. Go down there and we'll continue or shut up.

P.S. How about we ask Jermay to get his opinion on this and ask him if he thinks the premise of his Hot Ring is the be all, end all of routines? You ok with that? Or will you finally concede that there are OTHER routines that do not use any sort of PK psychology in their routines and that they are great routines?
[/quote]

End of the day, demonstrate how the QB is superior to other methods in relation to a coin bend routine. Please explain how your typewriter etc. analogy which comes down to efficiency actually proves your point that QB improves efficiency for coin bend routines in general. That's all you have to do, thus far all you have been doing is insult anybody that tries to tell you that it's nothing more than a method and really isn't better or worse than other methods. I mean for goodness sakes, you even stated this yourself. How pathetic are you to find the need to come on a forum arguing to prove that your view is the right view and on top of that, even contradict yourself?

Bottom line, you have been going on and on for years how QB is superior yet you have NEVER been able to quantify that in any meaningful way. Yes, my posts are long but it's obvious that I'm trying to point out the more important things about a coin bend in general. That helps others wishing to learn a coin bend routine think about them with more thought as opposed to your childish "I paid a lot of money for this thing so that makes it a Royale Royce of methods thus that must mean it's the best and will provide the best routine" argument. Simple concept here yet you have completely missed the plot here and continue to sit there like a child arguing for the sake of "being right."

There is this very simple concept of cause and correlation. All you have done for years is assume that the correlation is the cause. In other words, you have based your argument on the following:

I paid an arm and a leg for QB. I have received great reactions from it. Thus, due to that, this must be the best coin bend ever.

That is a correlation, it's not a cause. You obviously can't grasp this simple concept.

I bring up Hot Ring a lot because that section in Building Blocks teaches you a lot of fundamentals about understanding your audience, how to manage your audience, how to maximize the experience for the audience. These are fundamental concepts people should learn and understand. I don't continue to mention it because I think it's the best routine. I mention it because it teaches the performer a lot of fundamentals. This is in hopes that we don't end up with a bunch of people like yourself whom just buys things and if it works just assume that that is all there is to a routine or a performance. There's fundamentals in performing. That's why books like Derren Brown's second book is such a classic. That's who Ortiz's Strong Magic is such a classic. That's why Carneycopia is such a highly regarded book. Things you obviously simply don't understand at all.

It's ridiculous how you are going "let's ask Jermay!" You daft little boy, you don't even need to go that far, just pick up some mentalism books and actually read them, they all mention the key thing that the strongest mentalism you can perform is when you can successfully sell the audience on the premise of the demonstration. You obviously don't understand this due to the fact that you most likely have never bothered to read any of them.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 06:49PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 17:56, lunatik wrote:
There are many pro's that completely disagree with you and prove it by how they perform a coin bend.
[/quote]
There is a subtle difference between how someone "performs a coin bend" and how someone "bends a coin" and I think that is the point that kissdadookie is making. However, the bit that prompted me to reply was this notion that a pro or the commonly used term "working pro" automatically knows best. I see this notion commonly propogated on the Café and my experience as a former "working pro" myself is that this is not the case. The most knowledgable and skilled magicians I have met in magic have commonly been hobbyests. Some of the most respected names in magic such as Marlo and Jennings were hobbiests.

The most important knowledge and skill required to make it as a working pro is busness accumen and marketing ablity. As long as you have those you can be highly successful as a working pro with fairly limited skills as a magician. When I first turned pro and started meeting other pro's on the circuit one of the first things that shocked me was how many I met that had no real passion for magic and saw it purely as a business. One of the most successful guys on the table hopping circuit in London back then new a total of around a dozen effects, mostly using things like the Svengali deck. He was neither a terrible performer nor a great one and he didn't even know who Dai Vernon was yet he was very successful because he knew how to market himself.

This was a big shock to me and in many ways a kind of wake up call. I had spent years and years mastering my craft, I was extremely well read, practiced for an average of 8 hours a day, could do knuckle busting sleight of hand, was well respected by my peers, was in with the magical mafia (as a certain group of well known magicians were known). I was teaching John Carey, having sessions with Kevin Reay and swapping tricks with Michael Vincent, Jerry Sadowitz and countless others of that ilk and Michael Ammar was interested in publishing my routines. It seemed that I was at the top of my game and destined for great things. Yet here was a guy with little more than a Svengali deck earning twice as much as me and he was closer to the norm, it was I who was the exception.

Valuable lesson learned, being a good magician will not make you a successful pro, understanding the art of magic is far less imprortant than understanding the business of magic (or themagic of business) lesson 2, a reputation amongst your fellow magicians means nothing to a booker. In fact you professionalism as a contractor means far more to most bookers than your skill as a magician, providing you are not lousy most bookers care more about whether you will show up on time, look clean and smart, behave appropriately and fit in with the image of the establishment than how many varients of a side steal or three fly you can perform.

As a hobbiest my focus had been on perfecting each move, making every movement justified, creating poetry with cards and coins. Suddenly as a working pro my focus moved to doing things by the simplest method, filling my time slot exactly, no more no less, being able to reset quickly, managing my pocket space, fitting the set to the venue and dare I say it squeezing the maximum entertainment out of the minimum effort (by minimum effort don't mistake this for meaning I didn't work hard, the reality is that you are putting tons of time and energy into the business side adding 400 hours to perfect a sleight is simply not cost effective a good pro will learn to be able to do a little well. Even my cabaret act was focussed far more on entertainment value than magical quality, it was reallly more comedy than magic and again working the clubs it was surprising how many people had built their acts from the supreme magic catalogue (and even more annoyingly from watchng other performers and copying the bits that worked). I suspect a lot of pro's have seen less original pro's in their audience armed with a note book

There are many very skilled and immensly knowledgable pro's and we can all name a very long list but they arethe exeption, not the norm, the vast majority of pro's are unknown to us and a huge amount of them have no real interest in magic at "clocking off time" it's simply their job and I was shocked to find out how many pro's see it like that. Incidentally when I had kids and so had to come off the road to do a "proper job" I landed a job in the games industry at Sony Computer Entertainment Europe where I was just as surprised to learn I was the only "hard core gamer" in the whole development studio.

So being a pro is not an accurate measure of somebodies knowledge. Those pro's who's reputations reach our fraternity are great because they are the cream that has risen to the top and it has done so because of their passion for our art, not simply because they are a pro. Even those that we see as the cream are ften not the biggest earners obviously with exceptions like Copperfield et al.

Those that love, and dare I say it, truly understand the art we call magic will find very little in kissadookies posts that can be easily dismissed. The method you use to bend the coin is far less important than the performance you use to sell the effect. Whether it is a pre b, a cv, a superman or a QB2 is far less important than the emotion you generate in the spectators and the experience as seen through their eyes.

Rant over :)

Mark
Message: Posted by: RNK (Feb 27, 2013 06:58PM)
Very well put Mark!

RNK
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 06:59PM)
Again, ditto.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 07:09PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 18:53, saysold1 wrote:

With QB the coin is never out of the spectator's view because the spectator is typically averting their eyes for a moment - so that moment does not exit even for a split second in the mond of the spectator imo. Unless of course you are burning your own hands. Out of sight - out of mind. QB allows things to happen very quickly.
[/quote]
That's not strictly true, when you take the coin back it leaves their sight, it is only briefly and it is covered with adequate misdirection and backed up by the signature so it is not a weakness as such but it is there and it is that moment when the coin is out of the spectators sight that renders the signature necessary to a large degree. My pre b version I literally lift the coin off of their palm and up to their eye level and tell them not to let it leave their sight and my hands can genuinely and cleanly be seen to be empty apart from one coin, it can be done with them burning my hands from the moment the coin comes out of their pocket and that is why the lack of a signature is not even remotely important.

I am not convinced that I could say the same using my QB without a signature (not that I would have a reason to be holding a pen without the signature). My pre b routine looks more direct and in my opinion more clean. For me the QB gives me the freedom to use any coin, the downsides to my pre b routine is that I can only do it if they have a coin that's a close enough match, if not then I will hand them a sharpie and go with the QB.

Mark
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 07:16PM)
Exactly! You're hit the nail on the head! Dookie came to argue about routining, most others on THIS thread came to talk about the bender. Take that Convo elsewhere like I said before. This thread is about a bender, NOT a routine. Notwithstanding, you still haven't proved a thing about your pet routine, it's just your opinion as I have mine. Mark is right in that we need to connect with our spectator. There is nothing wrong with your routine, my routine, Streblers, Darren's, Blaine's, etc...we all connect with our spectators during our set in different manners. A coin bend is for me almost always the last thing I perform. Do you know why? It's because I want to establish a connection with the spectator first and foremost. I'm not arguing that a great routine is needed to connect with your audience, where have I alluded to such a ridiculous thing? This thread is to talk about a bender, I'll start a thread in Inner Thoughts so that we can voice our thoughts and opinions on routining there. Please no more hijacking this thread as we both have done. My apologies to the others!
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 07:24PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:16, lunatik wrote:
Mark is right in that we need to connect with our spectator.
[/quote]
I actually thought that was the point kissathingamy (no disrespect intended, it was just too late at night to go back and check the spelling) was making. I hasten to add when I said that I didn't think there was much in his post that people who understand the art could dismiss that was before the tone and content of those posts had gone downhill..

Mark
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 07:27PM)
Yeah, I never ever would disagree that one needs to come with their spectators. IMO, one would just be a move monkey and your spectator reactions wouldn't be as good as they could be. Just my thoughts!
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 07:29PM)
Fair enough, lunatik. Your point is well made. I'm a geezer, so I do a switch. Even if I owned an expensive bender, (that sounds [i]so wrong[/i]), I would probably still do a good switch. Just for fun.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 07:36PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:24, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:16, lunatik wrote:
Mark is right in that we need to connect with our spectator.
[/quote]
I actually thought that was the point kissathingamy (no disrespect intended, it was just too late at night to go back and check the spelling) was making. I hasten to add when I said that I didn't think there was much in his post that people who understand the art could dismiss that was before the tone and content of those posts had gone downhill..

Mark
[/quote]

It went downhill the moment I had to repeat myself for the umpteenth time and Lunatik became pretty insulting. Smh. Tried to be civil and thorough with my points only to get insulted, totally sucked me into the whole bad manners ordeal.

You've also explained my points well as well Mark. No worries about proper spelling of my username. I've used it for years ;)
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 07:44PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:27, lunatik wrote:
Yeah, I never ever would disagree that one needs to come with their spectators. IMO, one would just be a move monkey and your spectator reactions wouldn't be as good as they could be. Just my thoughts!
[/quote]

You have many thoughts but you also have been contradicting yourself. Think about it, you've been trying to prove that the QB is the best. The best at what exactly? Does it add to the effect? No. Even you yourself even stated that the method is irrelevant and use whatever one likes to get the job done. That's what I was saying from the beginning. I simply do not understand what you are trying to defend here because what you've ended up saying at the end just completely contradicts your point of the QB being the best because even you've said, the method really is irrelevant. So why the heck have you been arguing with me in the first place apart from wanting to ruffle my feathers? You also missed the plot entirely with why I bring up Hot Ring, I never on this thread that it's the best routine, I've stated incredibly clearly that I've pointed it out due to what a performer can learn from it and the Building Blocks book in general. It's not even concepts which are exclusive to Building Blocks, but Building Blocks is a very good one stop shop to learn these basic fundamentals without having to source all this information together from several other books (magic as well as mentalism books).

I have a good feeling that you simply just forgot that to properly and effectively reply to something, you actually need to thoroughly READ and UNDERSTAND what you are replying to instead of just jumping to conclusions, becoming defensive, and going around all over the place with your thoughts like a headless chicken.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 07:46PM)
I would go further, and suggest that some of these coin-benders may not be capable of a basic s****, let alone a more sophisticated procedure.
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 27, 2013 07:54PM)
I think Mark has hit the nail on the head.

I do completely understand Kissdadookie points as well (although I have never read the Hot ring routine), but Lunatik is correct as well, you can perform many different types of coin bend routines.
I prefer a visual bend, this way everyone gets to experience the magic and I don't have to rely on one spectators reactions to sell the experience.

If signing the coin is important in your routine then QB2.0 is probably the best method for achieving that. However other coin bending tools such as the CV2 are also very good.

QB2 or CV2 are also great for pre-bending coins
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 08:01PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:46, tomsk192 wrote:
I would go further, and suggest that some of these coin-benders may not be capable of a basic s****, let alone a more sophisticated procedure.
[/quote]
It's funny you should say that, Dynamo did a coin bend on his show and the switch was so painfully bad it made me cringe literally. Haha that kind of makes my point about success not necessarily being a measure of skill. Interestingly every time I have seen Dynamo perform on a show other than his own he has used a Svengali deck and know he isn't the guy I referred to in my earlier post lol.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 08:10PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:01, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:46, tomsk192 wrote:
I would go further, and suggest that some of these coin-benders may not be capable of a basic s****, let alone a more sophisticated procedure.
[/quote]
It's funny you should say that, Dynamo did a coin bend on his show and the switch was so painfully bad it made me cringe literally. Haha that kind of makes my point about success not necessarily being a measure of skill. Interestingly every time I have seen Dynamo perform on a show other than his own he has used a Svengali deck and know he isn't the guy I referred to in my earlier post lol.
[/quote]

Yes, a bad s**** is as bad as a bad anything else.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 08:12PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:10, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:01, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:46, tomsk192 wrote:
I would go further, and suggest that some of these coin-benders may not be capable of a basic s****, let alone a more sophisticated procedure.
[/quote]
It's funny you should say that, Dynamo did a coin bend on his show and the switch was so painfully bad it made me cringe literally. Haha that kind of makes my point about success not necessarily being a measure of skill. Interestingly every time I have seen Dynamo perform on a show other than his own he has used a Svengali deck and know he isn't the guy I referred to in my earlier post lol.
[/quote]

Yes, a bad switch is as bad as a bad anything else.
[/quote]

A method is just a method folks. Back to basics and master whatever method you're using.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 08:15PM)
I should have added the [i]caveat[/i] "Yes, a switch is as bad as anything else, when done badly". Apologies.

But a good use of Svengali is a nod towards greatness. Doncha'know?
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Feb 27, 2013 08:32PM)
I WISH I COULD SEE THIS!!!
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 08:32PM)
Haha the Svengali deck holds too many bad memories for me. In the old days when I was the Hamleys resident magician (when their magic department was aimed at professionals) we had a separate Svengali counter and Bob the Svengali demonstrator (who was actually a really good mentalist) quit just before Christmas when we would shift 500 Svengali decks a day. So guess who got lumbered standing in for him and had to run through the same sales pitch over and over again "Come and see the magic cards, they do tricks they do magic they do miracles ......
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 27, 2013 08:38PM)
Hahahaha I used to work at Hamleys as well. Calum and Bruce trained me. Bruce is still there!
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Feb 27, 2013 08:42PM)
"The best" is subjective. You can take a true master card manipulator with a normal deck, that has a very dry approach and not entertaining and he will pale to someone that uses a Svengali Deck, but he connects with people. Same with coin bending.

"The best" is what works best for you.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 27, 2013 09:13PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:38, bonesly wrote:
Hahahaha I used to work at Hamleys as well. Calum and Bruce trained me. Bruce is still there!
[/quote]When were you there? I didn't get any training but back then the resident magician job was effectively a gig. I auditioned and was given the job and the nearest I got to training was someone showing me how to work the till. I left Hamleys around about '85 and rather than getting a new resident magician they closed the magic department and replaced it with a Marvins magic concession..
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 10:35PM)
Dookie, I've addressed you in inner thoughts to clear you up once again
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 10:44PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 23:35, lunatik wrote:
Dookie, I've addressed you in inner thoughts to clear you up once again
[/quote]

There must be something seriously wrong with you. It's quite apparent that you for some reason have this infatuation with wanting to argue with me. Look at how many times the points I've made on this thread has been agreed upon by other members and yet instead of acknowledging that you maybe should not have been so pointlessly defensive about your preferred coin bend method, you basically nodded your heads at the other posts by others effectively going "yes I agree" and basically just pretended that what I've made said in several posts here already never happened. Give it a rest, seriously.

What exactly is there to clear up? The facts here are:

1) You are arguing that QB is the best method. If that's the case please substantiate that claim with how it improves coin bend routines in general.
2) You've openly stated that these are just methods and they could all well be equally good, this is what you have stated yourself, if that's the case, your entire point about QB being the best is a point which you yourself have now completely negated.
3) You have been basically arguing with me here and claiming that I'm trying to imply such and such routine is better than such and such another routine. If you had bothered to actually read my posts thoroughly, you would have seen that this is obviously not the case, yet you are pointing fingers and completely twisting my intentions and the content of my posts.
4) Finally, your now trying to essentially pole people in what is a very transparent attempt at hoping to be able to come back later to go "hey, see, you weren't right! Told you so!"

Seriously, I have no clue how you could be this egotistical and childish. It's quite ridiculous. Like I've said in my initial posts in this thread, yes you may get great reactions. Yes you can do coin bends the "magician" way, it's all perfectly fine but at the end, your shorting the potential of the effect. It could be much more. I've learned this again, through experience, through using various methods, through experimenting with different routines. I at the minimum have the collective knowledge of all that work and experimentation put in to be able to give my take and views on the subject. You on the other hand, what exactly qualifies you to tell people what is the best coin bend or method when it's quite obvious that you've never bothered to experiment beyond what you have learned off of commercially available methods and effects which you've essentially just followed pretty much verbatim from the included instructions? Simple simple simple question here, what do you have to qualify and substantiate your constant claims that QB is the best. Need I remind you that each and every time you've made the claim that QB is the best, you've said it in such a way as if it was scripture as opposed to stating that FOR YOU it's the best. Again, what do you have in comparison? You're obviously unable to quantify and substantiate your claims. You're like some ignorant child that only ever had burgers from McDonald's running around telling people that McDonald's has the best burgers.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 11:10PM)
Downstairs tard, kapeeesh?
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 11:17PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 00:10, lunatik wrote:
Downstairs tard, kapeeesh?
[/quote]

Wow, it's a bit sad that again, you just feel like resorting to insults.

Here are some of your own posts lunatik:

"My thoughts are that if a utility device makes it easier to perform the effect, I will pay the premium for that luxury."

So, how does it make it easier? Compared to what? Whatever it is you are comparing it to, have you tried the alternative method and fully worked the alternatives? All you are implying with that post is essentially "QB is the best and easiest so I happily paid $500-$600 because I'm just going to blindly assume it is the best and easiest, says so on the ad copy and random people agree on the Café!!!"

Or how about this choice post of yours:

"Dookie, you are misguided. A pre-bend's effeciency is COMPLETELY thrown out the window when they noticed that the California coin they gave you is now Oregon! Nothing wrong with you using Buiding Blocks as I'm using some of Skins techniques. I think all of your arguments on this specific subject belong in Penny IMO. There are magicians"

Any experienced performer could have easily seen that your state quarters argument is a completely moot point since there's so many different ways to get around that, like the fact that there is no rule anywhere stating that you have to do coin bends with quarters. Duh.

Let's end off this post with this final choice post you've made:

"You can and should definitely 'aim' for the best outcome, but don't discredit your spectators, they're as dumb as some mentalists or magicians think. I personally use Skin for presentation and it has served me well as I know how to milk it. If one is old school and only use billets and prebent coins, that's perfectly fine, I'm sure they get mileage. But if one uses a Mindpad or a Coinvexed or QB so they can concentrate more on the presentation than the method, more power to him. That's the path a lot of us have chosen and there's nothing wrong with it if we choose to pay the premium to do so."

Again, you're making a lot of blind assumptions here. You are stating that other methods require more work or need more concentration to pull off, yet you are still yet able to explain how QB makes it easier than doing a f**se t*k*/p*t/tr****er.

I've brought up all these points already and all you've done has been to ignore them and just go off on other tangents or circle back on your illogical arguments and then ultimately contradict yourself with your post of "oh, it's just a method, can't we be allowed to have preferences?!?" I mean, come on, seriously. Not only that, but instead of addressing these questions I brought up to you, you not only completely ignore them but then just end up calling me names. Really childish and completely shows your nature.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Feb 27, 2013 11:24PM)
That's what I thought, stay on this thread, you know that you're done lol

See you tomorrow!
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 11:26PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 00:24, lunatik wrote:
That's what I thought, stay on this thread, you know that you're done lol
[/quote]

Why would I bother with that other thread? It's clear that you've created that thread for the sole purpose of serving your ridiculous ego. It's really childish and pathetic. You know it, I know it, other people do as well. Good luck on that thread becoming meaningful.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 11:26PM)
Just imagine explaining something remotely complex to Father Dougal and you will soon give up this fruitless argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9PnnNIllqk

:thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 11:29PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 00:26, tomsk192 wrote:
Just imagine explaining something remotely complex to Father Dougal and you will soon give up this fruitless argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9PnnNIllqk

:thumbsup:
[/quote]

I concur.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 11:30PM)
What was that you said, Ted? ;)
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 27, 2013 11:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 00:30, tomsk192 wrote:
What was that you said, Ted? ;)
[/quote]

He was the surprisingly normal one too. Ha ha ha.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Feb 27, 2013 11:39PM)
:D
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 28, 2013 01:10AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 22:13, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:38, bonesly wrote:
Hahahaha I used to work at Hamleys as well. Calum and Bruce trained me. Bruce is still there!
[/quote]When were you there? I didn't get any training but back then the resident magician job was effectively a gig. I auditioned and was given the job and the nearest I got to training was someone showing me how to work the till. I left Hamleys around about '85 and rather than getting a new resident magician they closed the magic department and replaced it with a Marvins magic concession..
[/quote]

Ah unfortunately I joined when it was Marvins Magic and that was 2002. The training was basically about how to sell the Svens, Dynamic coins and those dreaded drawing boards!
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Feb 28, 2013 03:28AM)
It's a shame they closed the magic department but times change. Hamleys have had some great resident magicians including, Harry Baron, Ron McMillan and my own Father but once Hamleys was bought out by a department store chain (Debenhams I think) the whole ethos of the store changed and the staff had to wear uniforms instead of suits and they started closing the store for celebrities like Michael Jackson. The only problem with having a professional magic department in the worlds largest toy store is that I was regularly telling mothers that a full sized set of Chinese linking rings, or a Dove from burning gloves was not really appropriate for their 5 year old no matter how clever you think he is lol.
Message: Posted by: bonesly (Feb 28, 2013 07:25AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 04:28, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
It's a shame they closed the magic department but times change. Hamleys have had some great resident magicians including, Harry Baron, Ron McMillan and my own Father but once Hamleys was bought out by a department store chain (Debenhams I think) the whole ethos of the store changed and the staff had to wear uniforms instead of suits and they started closing the store for celebrities like Michael Jackson. The only problem with having a professional magic department in the worlds largest toy store is that I was regularly telling mothers that a full sized set of Chinese linking rings, or a Dove from burning gloves was not really appropriate for their 5 year old no matter how clever you think he is lol.
[/quote]

I agree I wish I was around those times. Nowadays Marvins Magic use anybody to demonstrate the tricks and a lot of the time I pass by, these basic tricks are demonstrated poorly.
Message: Posted by: Rabid (Feb 28, 2013 06:07PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 21:01, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 20:46, tomsk192 wrote:
I would go further, and suggest that some of these coin-benders may not be capable of a basic s****, let alone a more sophisticated procedure.
[/quote]
It's funny you should say that, Dynamo did a coin bend on his show and the switch was so painfully bad it made me cringe literally. Haha that kind of makes my point about success not necessarily being a measure of skill. Interestingly every time I have seen Dynamo perform on a show other than his own he has used a Svengali deck and know he isn't the guy I referred to in my earlier post lol.
[/quote]


I recall one of Blaines specials (I think it was the first or second one) where he did a coin bite for a couple of people. The method was basically signposted, on camera for all to see. I would have been shocked by it...but at the time, I was a spec, not a hobbyist magician. Sufficed to say, no one I've ever mentioned it to / discussed it with who is not a magician has anything to say about it other than, "Hey, that was f'ing cool...y'know, when he bit the coin in half and then like, literally spat it back on..."

Presentation is pretty much everything. Presentation, and commitment. With those two things in the bag, you're pretty much golden. Who gives a f*** how one bends the sodding coin?

Saying that, I still haven't come across better than my Superman Coin Bend. Direct, signed, at the fingertips, effectively clean at the moment the 'bend happens'.

Magic.

Steph
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 28, 2013 06:18PM)
Agreed Rabid. These are just methods to achieve the bend, at the end it's just the routine and how well you sell the routine which matters.

As for Superman, I use to own that, I've just used it as a pre-b utility until that pen came out (not the QB, the other one which unscrews into two pieces). It was convenient, doubled as a fully functional pen which I did use as such and many a spec have used it to sign things with, plus I always had it on me so that I can prep coins at a moments notice.
Message: Posted by: dooblehorn (Feb 28, 2013 11:34PM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 19:49, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-27 17:56, lunatik wrote:
There are many pro's that completely disagree with you and prove it by how they perform a coin bend.
[/quote]
There is a subtle difference between how someone "performs a coin bend" and how someone "bends a coin" and I think that is the point that kissdadookie is making. However, the bit that prompted me to reply was this notion that a pro or the commonly used term "working pro" automatically knows best. I see this notion commonly propogated on the Café and my experience as a former "working pro" myself is that this is not the case. The most knowledgable and skilled magicians I have met in magic have commonly been hobbyests. Some of the most respected names in magic such as Marlo and Jennings were hobbiests.

The most important knowledge and skill required to make it as a working pro is busness accumen and marketing ablity. As long as you have those you can be highly successful as a working pro with fairly limited skills as a magician. When I first turned pro and started meeting other pro's on the circuit one of the first things that shocked me was how many I met that had no real passion for magic and saw it purely as a business. One of the most successful guys on the table hopping circuit in London back then new a total of around a dozen effects, mostly using things like the Svengali deck. He was neither a terrible performer nor a great one and he didn't even know who Dai Vernon was yet he was very successful because he knew how to market himself.

This was a big shock to me and in many ways a kind of wake up call. I had spent years and years mastering my craft, I was extremely well read, practiced for an average of 8 hours a day, could do knuckle busting sleight of hand, was well respected by my peers, was in with the magical mafia (as a certain group of well known magicians were known). I was teaching John Carey, having sessions with Kevin Reay and swapping tricks with Michael Vincent, Jerry Sadowitz and countless others of that ilk and Michael Ammar was interested in publishing my routines. It seemed that I was at the top of my game and destined for great things. Yet here was a guy with little more than a Svengali deck earning twice as much as me and he was closer to the norm, it was I who was the exception.

Valuable lesson learned, being a good magician will not make you a successful pro, understanding the art of magic is far less imprortant than understanding the business of magic (or themagic of business) lesson 2, a reputation amongst your fellow magicians means nothing to a booker. In fact you professionalism as a contractor means far more to most bookers than your skill as a magician, providing you are not lousy most bookers care more about whether you will show up on time, look clean and smart, behave appropriately and fit in with the image of the establishment than how many varients of a side steal or three fly you can perform.

As a hobbiest my focus had been on perfecting each move, making every movement justified, creating poetry with cards and coins. Suddenly as a working pro my focus moved to doing things by the simplest method, filling my time slot exactly, no more no less, being able to reset quickly, managing my pocket space, fitting the set to the venue and dare I say it squeezing the maximum entertainment out of the minimum effort (by minimum effort don't mistake this for meaning I didn't work hard, the reality is that you are putting tons of time and energy into the business side adding 400 hours to perfect a sleight is simply not cost effective a good pro will learn to be able to do a little well. Even my cabaret act was focussed far more on entertainment value than magical quality, it was reallly more comedy than magic and again working the clubs it was surprising how many people had built their acts from the supreme magic catalogue (and even more annoyingly from watchng other performers and copying the bits that worked). I suspect a lot of pro's have seen less original pro's in their audience armed with a note book

There are many very skilled and immensly knowledgable pro's and we can all name a very long list but they arethe exeption, not the norm, the vast majority of pro's are unknown to us and a huge amount of them have no real interest in magic at "clocking off time" it's simply their job and I was shocked to find out how many pro's see it like that. Incidentally when I had kids and so had to come off the road to do a "proper job" I landed a job in the games industry at Sony Computer Entertainment Europe where I was just as surprised to learn I was the only "hard core gamer" in the whole development studio.

So being a pro is not an accurate measure of somebodies knowledge. Those pro's who's reputations reach our fraternity are great because they are the cream that has risen to the top and it has done so because of their passion for our art, not simply because they are a pro. Even those that we see as the cream are ften not the biggest earners obviously with exceptions like Copperfield et al.

Those that love, and dare I say it, truly understand the art we call magic will find very little in kissadookies posts that can be easily dismissed. The method you use to bend the coin is far less important than the performance you use to sell the effect. Whether it is a pre b, a cv, a superman or a QB2 is far less important than the emotion you generate in the spectators and the experience as seen through their eyes.

Rant over :)

Mark
[/quote]
Wow, Mark, great post!!
Message: Posted by: Nikki78 (Mar 1, 2013 12:42AM)
Hi Mark_Chandaue,

yes, great post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! There's much truth in it...

Off-topic: Keep on playing (video games) :)

Cheers
Nikki
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Mar 13, 2013 12:50AM)
Review please :) ..I don't understand ...In Coinvexed 1 I could bend the coins during the sign coin .How will be now if the sharpie is in my hand ?
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Mar 13, 2013 11:25AM)
?
Message: Posted by: SIX (Mar 15, 2013 11:53AM)
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 08:25, bonesly wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-02-28 04:28, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
It's a shame they closed the magic department but times change. Hamleys have had some great resident magicians including, Harry Baron, Ron McMillan and my own Father but once Hamleys was bought out by a department store chain (Debenhams I think) the whole ethos of the store changed and the staff had to wear uniforms instead of suits and they started closing the store for celebrities like Michael Jackson. The only problem with having a professional magic department in the worlds largest toy store is that I was regularly telling mothers that a full sized set of Chinese linking rings, or a Dove from burning gloves was not really appropriate for their 5 year old no matter how clever you think he is lol.
[/quote]



I agree I wish I was around those times. Nowadays Marvins Magic use anybody to demonstrate the tricks and a lot of the time I pass by, these basic tricks are demonstrated poorly.
[/quote]


I ran Marvins around that time in Toys R Us Times Square and FAO Schwarz after that, small world lol



Back to the topic lol Does anyone know if they plan on releasing a demo?
Message: Posted by: sgiandubh (Mar 15, 2013 01:56PM)
Coinvexed 3 with brown gimmick ? for UK users save your money and stick with the Silver gimmick. I upgraded at Blackpool and wish I hadn't, the cap improvement is nice albeit you don't need it for the effect. The brown gimmick sucks on UK coins so stick with the silver gimmick save your money and enjoy! I have now purchased some original silver gimmicks and could not be happier with them. I have used coinvexed for many years and it is one of my favourite effects but c'mon WMS be straight when you bring out these improvements when I asked about the differences at Blackpool there was no mention of the change to accomodate US and European coins which means it sucks with UK coins (you might get away with 50 pence coins). The bend is more of an angle than curve and coins slip, not good. I have raised it with WMS and the response pretty poor... (oh yeah I was offered a swap back to an old gimmick so £95 well spent) Well on the bright side it has highlighted how good another magic dealer down in Ashford Kent is...thank you Peter.
Message: Posted by: TheTableTopTrixta (Mar 15, 2013 02:05PM)
One thing about Alakazam over the years if I've ever had Any problem they have always refunded me no questions asked!

What did they say?
Message: Posted by: ReviewerMaster (Mar 15, 2013 02:05PM)
Heard mixed comments about it. Hope it turns out to be great!
Message: Posted by: Nikki78 (Mar 15, 2013 02:05PM)
Hi guys,

I just bought it and it's my first coin bending tool. The two parts of the gimmick seem to be built to last forever :)
You can use it to bend any copper Euro coin and also the 10 & 20 cent coins.
As I said it's my first tool for such an effect and I'm practicing to get the feeling for it and to build up some strenght in my hands for the bending.
I'm not sure if there's anybody out there who will be able to bend a thicker Euro coin like the 50c coin (maybe the incredible Hulk)

I can't compare version 3 to version 1 or 2 because I don't own them.
The DVD is well produced with live performances and David Penn is a really great teacher. He covers pretty everything you'll need to know...

I'm happy with it :)

Cheers
Nikki
Message: Posted by: magic1178 (Mar 16, 2013 02:22AM)
HI guys, I just received this and I think its Awesome!

I do have a have the coin slip every now and then,is this just inexperience? Probably,but I was wondering if there were any tips to make the gimmick not slip as much.


WEll Im off to practice.
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 16, 2013 04:54AM)
So does this work well on UK coins?

If not, which version of Coinvexed works well for that?
Message: Posted by: Nikki78 (Mar 16, 2013 08:03AM)
I guess so. It was developed in the UK and David Penn shows every technique with UK currency

Cheers
Nikki
Message: Posted by: sgiandubh (Mar 16, 2013 09:39AM)
As I stated in my original post Coinvexed is a brilliant effect I love it and continue to carry it with me at all times. My problem is the change from silver gimmick to brown one is not good for UK users and this was never mentioned. Get yourself a silver gimmick and you will see the difference in the actual bend which is far superior and it will never slip. As for customer service from WMS let's just say they will no longer be getting my business, yes I know it won't make much difference to them but we all have choice and mine is to conduct business with a company that actually cares about its customers and not one that just takes the money!
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (Mar 16, 2013 11:47AM)
I have coinvexed 1, 2 and now 3. Coinvexed 2 was major leap forward in the right direction from the first version. Coinvexed 3 is a minor hop backwards perhaps. I also prefer the silver gimmick. It blends in very nicely with US coins such as quarters, nickles and dimes. The black color of the new gimmick I do not think is well hidden as the silver gimmick is. Also, the sharpie cap gimmick on Coinvexed 3 seems slightly lighter as compared with coinvexed 1 or 2 gimmick. Also the sharpie gimmick in coinvexed 2 has a certain dimple on it to help you with orientation of the gimmick whereas the new gimmick does not. I have not yet watched the DVD so I cannot comment on the double coin bend routiens. Bottom line: if you cannot find coinvexed 2 then coinvexed 3 is your best option. If you have Coinvexed 2, stay with that and you do not need 3 unless you really want the double coin bend routine.
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (Mar 16, 2013 12:40PM)
I just finished watching the DVD. I was very impressed with two of the additional routines. A routien dealing with a person's fears is excellent and another routine involving hypnosis was superb. The hypnosis routine was done on another magician in the studio as well as a live performance. The magician appeared visibly emotional during and after the routine. He was not faking one bit. It is heavy stuff and would leave a very strong emotional impact on your spectator. This rouine should be done only if you have knowledge about hypnosis or experience. The routine about someone's fears can be done by anyone and would also leave a very strong and positive emotional feeling in your specattor if doen correctly.
Message: Posted by: j.i.s. (Mar 17, 2013 02:19AM)
Why coinvexed 3 is not good for UK coins ? The place where insert the UK coin is too small? or what ? I have coinvexed 1 and I like to have sharpie method for US and Euro coins .

Thank you
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (Mar 20, 2013 07:06AM)
How is everybody likeing there Coinvexed 3.0 ?? Worth the 120.00 ??
Message: Posted by: 1KJ (Mar 21, 2013 10:35PM)
I don't have coinvexed 1 or 2. I do have other coin bending devices. I like it. Is it worth $120? I can't say that I'm dissapointed with the price. I think of the several coin bending devices I have, this is probably the best. I'm not sure I like the idea of hiding the device under coins. I think it might be better to hide one of the devices behind the other device. If it was created slightly differently, it could have passed for a pen clip, like a pocket clip. I think I will probably use this as my go to coin bending device, but I think there is room for even better devices.
KJ.
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 22, 2013 01:46PM)
Got mine today and already played around with it.

Apart from my hands getting completely bruised after 10 attempts, it works fine.

I will be trying this tonight to my close "magic testers" who I test my tricks on, and will come back with a MUCH more detailed review.

Only criticism is that for a 16 year old like me, it's quite hard to get the coin bent without adding superior force slyly.

Review coming soon...
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 22, 2013 03:06PM)
My review of Coinvexed 3: (overall rating 4.5/5).

I have not seen the gimmicks to the previous versions so this review is solely based on Coinvexed
3rd generation.

I got a nice and sleek box with the 2 gimmicks inside. At first, I was confused as to how the trick
was going to work but later on figured it out (I always try to guess the trick out before watching the DVD).

I then popped in the DVD and started watching through everything. The DVD is very well put
together, and taught, by none other than our David Penn. He went through everything clearly in detail
which is what I prefer and like.

There was also some additional footage and routine ideas from other magicians and hypnotists, such as
Amit. His one was very good and I have already got a few ideas from his routines.

Now, most importantly, it's about the gimmicks and the trick working in the real world. After a few hours
practice, I was ready to try it on my best mates (who I test all my magic tricks on). It flew pass both of them,
but they did complain I made a lot of noise (this was because the environment was really quiet).

I liked everything, but the only criticism which I have to say is that the bend can be tricky at times on
certain 2P/10P coins compared to other coins. I am still yet to be able to bend it EASILY in front of them, with
misdirection.

Right now, I turn around and do it whilst they are drawing something secretive on the white business card I give.

However, all in all, its a fantastic trick but Id be grateful if someone can give me tips on how I can get the bend more
efficiently, and naturally without putting a huge amount of effort. (And yes, I did try the method David Penn went
through on the video, but the success rate of that is only about 75%). I also take around 10-25 seconds to bend the
actual coin which can be quite suspicious sometimes, especially to the spectators.

All in all, a good trick, worth the price.

Would appreciate if David, or anyone else, can maybe help me out / answer my questions.

4.5/5 total rating from me. (I know my rating doesn't mean much but I hope it helps someone out there).
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Mar 22, 2013 03:52PM)
Great review - although the idea of having to spin around to get cover to do the work wouldn't be idea.

With my QB2, coins bend like melted butter in about .5 sec
Message: Posted by: professorwho (Mar 22, 2013 04:26PM)
Libertus, did you find a problem with the UK currency?
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 22, 2013 05:53PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-22 17:26, professorwho wrote:
Libertus, did you find a problem with the UK currency?
[/quote]

I've only tried with 2 and 10p coins and it works fine but does require some effort.
Message: Posted by: professorwho (Mar 22, 2013 07:25PM)
Try with some of the older 2ps (the non magnetic ones)
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 23, 2013 04:14AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-22 20:25, professorwho wrote:
Try with some of the older 2ps (the non magnetic ones)
[/quote]

Tried it and its just as hard. Im now getting mixed feelings on this trick as the coin bending is quite hard, maybe because of my age.
Message: Posted by: martinkey (Mar 23, 2013 06:18AM)
The older 5p pieces are pretty easy to bend but the newer ones are more difficult. Don't rush it and add a bit more misdirection in by commenting on their drawing, e.g. "Are you sure that's a man?"
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 23, 2013 08:38AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 07:18, martinkey wrote:
The older 5p pieces are pretty easy to bend but the newer ones are more difficult. Don't rush it and add a bit more misdirection in by commenting on their drawing, e.g. "Are you sure that's a man?"
[/quote]

I've tried all sorts of coins and whilst the method is actually genius, I believe you need to really put in a lot of effort to bend the coins.

I tried tons of times today already and have only managed to bend it a tiny amount, and that still took me a good while to do (I also had some slips at some points), and because of this issue, which is stopping me from performing this in the real world, Id like to amend my rating and give it a 3/5.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Mar 23, 2013 08:58AM)
Thank you for your honesty and feedback Libertus.

Look folks - reality is that Coinvexed just doesn't provide nearly the easy leverage that you get with QB. No way.

I've gotten PM's for months from many of you - quietly asking me whether QB is *REALLY* that easy to bend coins with... Do coins REALLY bend like hot butter.

My answer is an unqualified YES ...the QB gimmick makes it easier for ANYONE to bend a coin with ease. The new QB3's hinge (genus engineered pivot joint btw) will also allow larger coins, foreign coins (UK,etc) and bending keys.

I don't own CV...but I've been rteading these threads for years + I've gotten loads of PM's from many a frustrated CV owner asking if QB is the real deal...and worth the extra money.

QB is the best piece of gear I have EVER bought or owned. Nothing beats it.

If you need more "misdirection and cover" with CV - or more hand stregth... Then maybe you should step up to QB and see what "night and day" feels like.
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 23, 2013 09:17AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 09:58, saysold1 wrote:
Thank you for your honesty and feedback Libertus.

Look folks - reality is that Coinvexed just doesn't provide nearly the easy leverage that you get with QB. No way.

I've gotten PM's for months from many of you - quietly asking me whether QB is *REALLY* that easy to bend coins with... Do coins REALLY bend like hot butter.

My answer is an unqualified YES ...the QB gimmick makes it easier for ANYONE to bend a coin with ease. The new QB3's hinge (genus engineered pivot joint btw) will also allow larger coins, foreign coins (UK,etc) and bending keys.

I don't own CV...but I've been rteading these threads for years + I've gotten loads of PM's from many a frustrated CV owner asking if QB is the real deal...and worth the extra money.

QB is the best piece of gear I have EVER bought or owned. Nothing beats it.

If you need more "misdirection and cover" with CV - or more hand stregth... Then maybe you should step up to QB and see what "night and day" feels like.
[/quote]

Thanks for your review on QB.

I will play around with CV for a few more days and if its not going to do me any good, or work as well as I expected, Il have to probably sell it, but despite me saying this, the trick works and it does the job, but I always like the trick which does the job for me in the most easiest way.
Message: Posted by: MarcLavelle (Mar 23, 2013 10:17AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-15 14:56, sgiandubh wrote:
Coinvexed 3 with brown gimmick ? for UK users save your money and stick with the Silver gimmick. I upgraded at Blackpool and wish I hadn't, the cap improvement is nice albeit you don't need it for the effect. The brown gimmick sucks on UK coins so stick with the silver gimmick save your money and enjoy! I have now purchased some original silver gimmicks and could not be happier with them. I have used coinvexed for many years and it is one of my favourite effects but c'mon WMS be straight when you bring out these improvements when I asked about the differences at Blackpool there was no mention of the change to accomodate US and European coins which means it sucks with UK coins (you might get away with 50 pence coins). The bend is more of an angle than curve and coins slip, not good. I have raised it with WMS and the response pretty poor... (oh yeah I was offered a swap back to an old gimmick so £95 well spent) Well on the bright side it has highlighted how good another magic dealer down in Ashford Kent is...thank you Peter.
[/quote][quote]
On 2013-03-16 10:39, sgiandubh wrote:
As I stated in my original post Coinvexed is a brilliant effect I love it and continue to carry it with me at all times. My problem is the change from silver gimmick to brown one is not good for UK users and this was never mentioned. Get yourself a silver gimmick and you will see the difference in the actual bend which is far superior and it will never slip. As for customer service from WMS let's just say they will no longer be getting my business, yes I know it won't make much difference to them but we all have choice and mine is to conduct business with a company that actually cares about its customers and not one that just takes the money!
[/quote]

Hello, did we speak via email? The Brown Gimmick was introduced over four years ago as the 'Euro' Version of Coinvexed 2, in response to demand for the ability to bend a wider variety of coins. CV3's improvement is on the cap, we all also had the gimmick out ready for people to try and play with at Blackpool! The bend is just as good (in my opinion, but I DO use this at least once every other day) and I also believe the optical bends are more visual with this type of bend. Like I said, It took me a few days to get used to the newer gimmick, when I bought CV2, just because I had used the original for so long.

I am not sure what I said via email for you to think that low of me! And like you said, we offered to change it to your proffered one! You never said you wanted a refund?

We do care about our customer, and always will.

Regards

Marc


[quote]
On 2013-03-16 13:40, magicinsight wrote:
I just finished watching the DVD. I was very impressed with two of the additional routines. A routien dealing with a person's fears is excellent and another routine involving hypnosis was superb. The hypnosis routine was done on another magician in the studio as well as a live performance. The magician appeared visibly emotional during and after the routine. He was not faking one bit. It is heavy stuff and would leave a very strong emotional impact on your spectator. This rouine should be done only if you have knowledge about hypnosis or experience. The routine about someone's fears can be done by anyone and would also leave a very strong and positive emotional feeling in your specattor if doen correctly.
[/quote]


I am glad you like my Phobia presentation!

That was also me that Amit performed on in the studio. Highly irritated by that, as many other hypnotists have tried and failed with me! Was a good experience though!

[quote]
On 2013-03-22 16:52, saysold1 wrote:
Great review - although the idea of having to spin around to get cover to do the work wouldn't be idea.

With my QB2, coins bend like melted butter in about .5 sec
[/quote]

Once you are used to it, CV is the same, it takes no time at all and can be done right in front of the spec's. As with any magic effect, it just takes a little performance practice. You will get very confident, very quickly with it!

For UK users: I prefer bending 50p and 20p coins, the straight edges cause it to have a really nice bend in it!

If anyone needs any help or pointer, please feel free to drop me a PM, I usually pop on here 2 or 3 times a week though!
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Mar 23, 2013 10:31AM)
[quote]

Once you are used to it, CV is the same, it takes no time at all and can be done right in front of the spec's. As with any magic effect, it just takes a little performance practice. You will get very confident, very quickly with it!

For UK users: I prefer bending 50p and 20p coins, the straight edges cause it to have a really nice bend in it!
If anyone needs any help or pointer, please feel free to drop me a PM, I usually pop on here 2 or 3 times a week though!
[/quote]

But the reality is that CV uses two parts and QB uses a single hinged and engineered gimmick.

Logically, one obtains better leverage with one single piece then two - just as with any tool.

You can't deny the science and the physics here.

The debate about best bender continues - same debate - different day/year.

QB still reigns supreme because of it's exquisite engineering and proven ability to make bending EASY for young/old/big/small/strong and less strong performers.

The new version QB3 is now designed for foreign coins and bending other objects.

I intend to get one.

I've never doubnted that CV is probably a decent or even good product.

But again, comparing CV to QB is like comparing a 767 to a Cessna. I know how I would like to fly.

The only reason I am ranting a but here is I have gotten 3 PM's just this past week from people who weren't too wild about CV but maybe didn't want to publicly post here.

Interesting.
Message: Posted by: rasmus (Mar 23, 2013 11:33AM)
I have to admit what saysold1 just said: There is no Comparison
from coinvexed to QB2.

I have both QB2 and Coinvexed 1 + 2. I never used the Coinvexed
in a Performance.

With the QB2 you do it in half a Second without even lookin. The
Coin bends like Butter and the Misdirection is perfect, if you
do a 2 Coin Routine as I do usually.

I think both of the Gimmicks are usable after all said. The main Difference
is the same as comparing a Rolls Royce with a BMW.

Just my 5 Swiss Francs
Message: Posted by: MarcLavelle (Mar 23, 2013 04:22PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 11:31, saysold1 wrote:
[quote]

Once you are used to it, CV is the same, it takes no time at all and can be done right in front of the spec's. As with any magic effect, it just takes a little performance practice. You will get very confident, very quickly with it!

For UK users: I prefer bending 50p and 20p coins, the straight edges cause it to have a really nice bend in it!
If anyone needs any help or pointer, please feel free to drop me a PM, I usually pop on here 2 or 3 times a week though!
[/quote]

But the reality is that CV uses two parts and QB uses a single hinged and engineered gimmick.

Logically, one obtains better leverage with one single piece then two - just as with any tool.

You can't deny the science and the physics here.

The debate about best bender continues - same debate - different day/year.

QB still reigns supreme because of it's exquisite engineering and proven ability to make bending EASY for young/old/big/small/strong and less strong performers.

The new version QB3 is now designed for foreign coins and bending other objects.

I intend to get one.

I've never doubnted that CV is probably a decent or even good product.

But again, comparing CV to QB is like comparing a 767 to a Cessna. I know how I would like to fly.

The only reason I am ranting a but here is I have gotten 3 PM's just this past week from people who weren't too wild about CV but maybe didn't want to publicly post here.

Interesting.
[/quote]

It is always going to be preference! I colleague of mine uses QB, and performs it really well! I personally never got on with it though! I would never deny physics! Both releases do what they are supposed to do with great ease! (I know a 12 year old that uses CV2, and he hasn't got a shed of muscle on him!)

I use CV for other objects, on a keys, cutlery etc...

It's always going to be preference, bottom line, is if you get a chance, try them out! (And any other benders on the market)
Message: Posted by: rasmus (Mar 23, 2013 05:22PM)
Totally Right Marc

There is never the perfect Tool that fits to Everybody.

Everyone has a favorite Method that fits his Presentation.

Also a simple Coin Switch can look like a Miracle if it's done the right Way.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Mar 23, 2013 05:43PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 18:22, rasmus wrote:
Totally Right Marc

There is never the perfect Tool that fits to Everybody.

Everyone has a favorite Method that fits his Presentation.

Also a simple Coin Switch can look like a Miracle if it's done the right Way.
[/quote]

Totally Right Rasmus!

I also think EVERYTHING depends on the performer. It's like humor. Some guys are funny and then another could use the same lines and bomb.

But, no matter what coin bend routine I did, I wouldn't want to work the same venue with Rasmus and have him do his visual coin bend. It's hard to compete with something that looks like real magic accomplished it!
Message: Posted by: rasmus (Mar 23, 2013 06:06PM)
Thanks Zombie :)

To much Compliments make me feel embarrassed:)

No honestly

In my Opinion there are no bad Bending Tools or Methods. Just bad Performances.
Every Method or Tool has advantages and drawbacks. If the Method is used in a proper Way,
you can do Miracles with every Method out there.

Just my 5 swiss Francs
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Mar 23, 2013 06:34PM)
"The resourceful professional failing to improve the method changes the moment"

.......Nicole "Snooki" Polizzi

Snooki knows!
Message: Posted by: Mark8infiniti (Mar 24, 2013 09:06AM)
HELLO EVERYONE,

Can you feedback to me?


I love Coinvexed 3! I've been using it, and love the concept...so much... but I'm struggling....
I'm in England of course, so pure UK money bends for me!

I am a physically strong person, but bending UK coins is not easy.. in fact, I only do 1ps now as they are by far the easiest. 10p and 2p are twice as hard, and I want the bend to be as easy as possible. ANYWAY, it is NOT the bending that is the problem!!! It's the SLIPPING!!
Even with 1ps... when I bend, no matter what technique I use, the coin eventually slips out and makes a suspicious noise. The only way to prevent this I find is to bend it less, but then the overall effect is not as strong. TO put a good amount of bend in it, the coin always seems to slip at the end under the pressure of your hands, it's just preventing an amazing effect from being a breeze.

Has anyone else noticed the SLIPPING with UK currency?

To me, it just seems that the 'gimmick mouth' is a little too wide and flat. People have spoke about the COINVEXED 2 gimmick being a lot better for UK coins? Is this the case? If so why? Do you think World Magic Shop will let me swap my CV3 gimmick for the CV2 one as I am a UK bender only!?

Thanls
Message: Posted by: runeflax (Mar 24, 2013 09:12AM)
[quote]
Do you think World Magic Shop will let me swap my CV3 gimmick for the CV2 one as I am a UK bender only!?
[/quote]

Don't think so. Their customer service is well below average.
But maybe this will make them want to prove the opposite...
Message: Posted by: Libertus (Mar 24, 2013 09:35AM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-24 10:06, magicmarkworldwide2 wrote:
HELLO EVERYONE,

Can you feedback to me?


I love Coinvexed 3! I've been using it, and love the concept...so much... but I'm struggling....
I'm in England of course, so pure UK money bends for me!

I am a physically strong person, but bending UK coins is not easy.. in fact, I only do 1ps now as they are by far the easiest. 10p and 2p are twice as hard, and I want the bend to be as easy as possible. ANYWAY, it is NOT the bending that is the problem!!! It's the SLIPPING!!
Even with 1ps... when I bend, no matter what technique I use, the coin eventually slips out and makes a suspicious noise. The only way to prevent this I find is to bend it less, but then the overall effect is not as strong. TO put a good amount of bend in it, the coin always seems to slip at the end under the pressure of your hands, it's just preventing an amazing effect from being a breeze.

Has anyone else noticed the SLIPPING with UK currency?

To me, it just seems that the 'gimmick mouth' is a little too wide and flat. People have spoke about the COINVEXED 2 gimmick being a lot better for UK coins? Is this the case? If so why? Do you think World Magic Shop will let me swap my CV3 gimmick for the CV2 one as I am a UK bender only!?

Thanls
[/quote]

I agree with everything you said here.

The coin slips most of the times and the bending is actually quite bad, and although I am 16, I do have the strength needed.

I did amend my review to a 3/5 and I will stick with this rating because the overall trick works and it does what its supposed to, but the fact that UK coins aren't bending so easily is a huge problem for me. I cannot go into a show and bend US coins when I am in the UK.
Message: Posted by: magic1178 (Mar 24, 2013 10:21AM)
Howdy, I have been told by WMS that the silver gimmick has not been in production for 4 years and is unavailable ,

Im in Canada and the larger gap makes the smaller coins consistently slip.

but WMS did recommend to turn the gimmick around,
you have to glue the coins which doesn't utilize the magnets,

but is does stop the slipping issue .

It isn't ideal, but it works.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Mar 24, 2013 10:35AM)
Where is David Penn?

Maybe David can helpfully chime in here and help some of his mates in the UK who are consistently finding that the new CV3 gimmick may not be reliable?

Frankly I don't think a bender should get a rating more than a 2 out of 5 if regular guys can't make an easy bend with the gimmick provided.

So far it sounds like CV3 is a resounding dud...at any price.
Message: Posted by: Mark8infiniti (Mar 24, 2013 11:30AM)
Thanks for the replies guys. Seems like this isn't just me then...

One thing though, How would turning the gimmick around and gluing the coins make a difference? Wouldn't simply turning the gimmick around in your hand with the coins on the opposite side, then doing the bend produce the same result? I've tried the other way actually and it hasn't helped?? What difference does gluing make? Sorry for sounding naive.... The problem is, I've been trying every angle known to man and, as well as running out of 1ps in my entire house and having massive blisters on my hand from overdoing it, I can't seem to find a solution.

So did the original silver gimmick have a smaller, tighter mouth? Is it possible to use pliers to make the mouth smaller on this gimmick to you think? Guess not as the metal is designed to be maximum strong.... It's not even the mouth width, more it could do with like a 'tooth' at the end to keep the coin locked it.

ONE THING I AM TRYING, is to stick a bit of double sided tape in the mouth on both ridges, this makes the coin 'stick a bit' and causes friction... but as I've said I AM ALLLLL OUT OF COINS!!!!!! Need to rest my hands.


I just want this to be PERFECT, because I TOTALLY love the gimmick, trick, method, teaching, whole package! This is something I WILL USE!
And, I've always found WMS to be really awesome to me, with nothing but the best customer service! Sorry to hear some of you don't feel the same but they have never let me down. I wanted to see what other users on the Café thought before I asked them... but if the silver gimmick is no longer available, I don't see what they can do... ;(

ANY MORE IDEAS to stop the slipping?

Regards and respect everyone!
Message: Posted by: rasmus (Mar 24, 2013 11:44AM)
I would suggest to buy a metal putty like this: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/mech_spec_epxy/overview/Loctite-Metal-Filled-Epoxy-Putty.htm

take a small piece and put a thin layer of the putty inside the mouth to make it a bit smaller. the putty,
if it's a good quality, should stay in place. before doin' that, you have to clean the gimmick very good with
alcohol or similar stuff, so the putty will stick perfect.

I don't know if it works but you can give it a try.
Message: Posted by: Mark8infiniti (Mar 24, 2013 12:15PM)
Rasmus, awesome suggestion! I think this could work! The reason why, is because the bits of double sided tape are definitely slowing the slipping down, so this could really work perfect! Just what I'm looking for.

ALSO, has anyone ever thought to attach some thin foam to the underside of the gimmick? I just did this, and the whole thing feels easier to bend without it cutting into my hand... this lets me turn the gimmick upside down to do the bend without having to re-glue the coins.... The foam I used was a bit from the actual coinvexed gimmick holder than came in the packaging! Try it...

Thanks all
Message: Posted by: Blindside785 (Mar 24, 2013 12:42PM)
I think I'm more ocnvinced to buy QB 3 now. CV 3 just sounds like CV 2, but modified with a few routines.

I had CV 2.0 and I didn't like that you had to layer the deception in the routine when you had a better alternative, in this case will be QB 3.0
Message: Posted by: rasmus (Mar 24, 2013 12:44PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-24 13:15, magicmarkworldwide2 wrote:
Rasmus, awesome suggestion! I think this could work! The reason why, is because the bits of double sided tape are definitely slowing the slipping down, so this could really work perfect! Just what I'm looking for.

ALSO, has anyone ever thought to attach some thin foam to the underside of the gimmick? I just did this, and the whole thing feels easier to bend without it cutting into my hand... this lets me turn the gimmick upside down to do the bend without having to re-glue the coins.... The foam I used was a bit from the actual coinvexed gimmick holder than came in the packaging! Try it...

Thanks all
[/quote]


very appriciated, hope this works for you. just be aware, that this putty hardens very fast!
Message: Posted by: magic1178 (Mar 24, 2013 03:24PM)
Ya sorry I meant turn the gimmick upside Down, not turn around
Message: Posted by: Billybonkers (Apr 4, 2013 02:51PM)
Are there any u.s based magicians who own this and can comment on if they're have problems with u.s coins slipping or being difficult to bend?

Thanks in advance
Message: Posted by: Doug Peters (Apr 16, 2013 12:53PM)
I've used CV2 since it came out.
(check out [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL-5Dv99osw]this private video[/url] for a one-coin routine with it)
It is [i]very[/i] easy to bend U.S. coins.
And while slipping is an issue in the early practice, it won't take long before it never happens.

Doug
Message: Posted by: puggo (Apr 16, 2013 03:31PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-16 13:53, Doug Peters wrote:
I've used CV2 since it came out.
(check out [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL-5Dv99osw]this private video[/url] for a one-coin routine with it)
It is [i]very[/i] easy to bend U.S. coins.
And while slipping is an issue in the early practice, it won't take long before it never happens.

Doug
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing your work on CV2 Doug.

Charlie
Message: Posted by: Fatgumbo (Apr 28, 2013 06:37AM)
Hi guys, I received coinvexed 3 a while ago and here are my thoughts on it:

Initial impression: This bender is fantastic and everything I hoped it would be! Now I don't own any other top-end coin benders so I cannot give a comparison, but I don't see how this gimmick could be improved on much. The gimmick is camoflaged in a very sneaky way, and the built in misdirection means there is NO HEAT when the bend is being performed.

The DVD: The DVD is very well shot, and includes David's standard 2-coin bend routine, and it also includes presentation ideas from marc lavelle, and headhacker hypnotist Amit Bandiani who gives a fantastic presentation with coinvexed, using it as a lead into a hypnotic induction. David also covers other ideas, such as a one coin bend.

The gimmicks: The gimmicks are extremely well made, and will last a definite lifetime, they are literally bombproof. Now most of you know what the gimmicks are, but they hardly take up any pocketspace, and the sharpie half of the gimmick fits on a regular sharpie which can be used for signing.

Some work is needed to camoflage the gimmick, and it could take seconds to minutes, depending on what country you live in. It would help if your country has magnetic coins, but these aren't necessary and any currency can be used.

The bend: This is probably the best part of the gimmicks. I found I could bend an Australian 10c coin ( similar to a UK 10 p) in about 1.5-2 seconds, and this bend is done in a moment of misdirection where there is NO HEAT on the performer. The rest is simply presentation.

I haven't had problems with the coin "slipping", and the bender seems to be able to bend coins easily. Obviously some hand strength is needed, and david gives tips on how to build up hand strength , as well as the correct technique.

Conclusion: This is a fantastic product and I carry it wherever I go now. I have had amazing reactions with it from doing it completely surrounded, it is simply amazing.

Highly recommended!

P.S I have no affiliation with WMS, I am simply a very satisfied customer.
Message: Posted by: Olympic Adam (Apr 28, 2013 09:31AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-28 07:37, Fatgumbo wrote:
...they are literally bombproof.

...some work is needed to camoflage the gimmick,

[/quote]

what type of bomb did you use to test?

what kind of camouflage? do you mean physically on the gimmick or as a performer? (without giving too much away)
Message: Posted by: Fatgumbo (Apr 28, 2013 09:42AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-28 10:31, Olympic Adam wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-28 07:37, Fatgumbo wrote:
...they are literally bombproof.

...some work is needed to camoflage the gimmick,

[/quote]

what type of bomb did you use to test?

what kind of camouflage? do you mean physically on the gimmick or as a performer? (without giving too much away)
[/quote]

Hi adam,

I used a water-bomb to test the durability of the gimmicks. Following the initial impact, a cursory glance revealed no signs of rusting, and the gimmicks were not warped or deformed despite the intense pressure of the explosion.

There are no clothing restrictions for the performer, all you need are pockets.

I don't think I am giving too much away when I say that all you need are a few coins , to disguise the gimmick.

As a added note, if one prefers, the gimmick needs not to be camouflaged, and can be easily concealed in the hand in a palm and bent the same way.

I cannot compare to quantum bender, but if you want a real world, practical coin bender with no restrictions, I can't recommend this enough.
Message: Posted by: Olympic Adam (Apr 28, 2013 11:04AM)
Thanks, sounds durable,

my only hesitation in buying v3 is that when v4 comes out I am out of date, and all my old apps wont work on it
Message: Posted by: Fatgumbo (Apr 28, 2013 11:10PM)
I don't think v4 will be out for a while, looks like David is extremely happy with v3 , and since v3 was an improvement on v2, and v2 was a different gimmick design to the original coinvexed, the gimmick shouldn't change anytime soon.

But then again, if you always wait for the latest model, you'll never get what you want!

On a side note, quantum bender 3.0 is coming out soon!
Message: Posted by: Burf (May 6, 2013 07:54AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-28 07:37, Fatgumbo wrote:
Hi guys, I received coinvexed 3 a while ago and here are my thoughts on it:

Initial impression: This bender is fantastic and everything I hoped it would be! Now I don't own any other top-end coin benders so I cannot give a comparison, but I don't see how this gimmick could be improved on much. The gimmick is camoflaged in a very sneaky way, and the built in misdirection means there is NO HEAT when the bend is being performed.

The DVD: The DVD is very well shot, and includes David's standard 2-coin bend routine, and it also includes presentation ideas from marc lavelle, and headhacker hypnotist Amit Bandiani who gives a fantastic presentation with coinvexed, using it as a lead into a hypnotic induction. David also covers other ideas, such as a one coin bend.

The gimmicks: The gimmicks are extremely well made, and will last a definite lifetime, they are literally bombproof. Now most of you know what the gimmicks are, but they hardly take up any pocketspace, and the sharpie half of the gimmick fits on a regular sharpie which can be used for signing.

Some work is needed to camoflage the gimmick, and it could take seconds to minutes, depending on what country you live in. It would help if your country has magnetic coins, but these aren't necessary and any currency can be used.

The bend: This is probably the best part of the gimmicks. I found I could bend an Australian 10c coin ( similar to a UK 10 p) in about 1.5-2 seconds, and this bend is done in a moment of misdirection where there is NO HEAT on the performer. The rest is simply presentation.

I haven't had problems with the coin "slipping", and the bender seems to be able to bend coins easily. Obviously some hand strength is needed, and david gives tips on how to build up hand strength , as well as the correct technique.

Conclusion: This is a fantastic product and I carry it wherever I go now. I have had amazing reactions with it from doing it completely surrounded, it is simply amazing.
money magic items
Highly recommended!

P.S I have no affiliation with WMS, I am simply a very satisfied customer.
[/quote]

Certainly appreciate your post, I wanted to know if it would work with Aussie coins. So many money magic products just do not work with our currency.
Looks like one I need to purchase shortly.
BTW would it be possible with a 20c coin as well?
Message: Posted by: Fatgumbo (May 6, 2013 08:42AM)
Certainly appreciate your post, I wanted to know if it would work with Aussie coins. So many money magic products just do not work with our currency.
Looks like one I need to purchase shortly.
BTW would it be possible with a 20c coin as well?
[/quote]

Hi burf,

I too understand the pain us aussies go through.

I just tried the bend out on a 20 c coin. It was difficult and to be honest, I struggled with it. I managed to get a slight curve in the, however it is minuscule to the 10c coin bend. It is possible, but would require some serious hand muscle.

It took me a good 8-10 seconds to put a slight bend into the 20c coin, whilst I can put a much more solid and " U " curved bend into a 10c coin in a fraction of the time.

I can do 10 cents in 1.5 seconds, and 5 cents bend like butter.

In my routine I have the 10c bent, and I think it is the perfect coin to bend, the spectator also doesn't end up losing any more money then they have to.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask me.

Regards!
Message: Posted by: Burf (May 7, 2013 09:47PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-06 09:42, Fatgumbo wrote:

Hi burf,

I too understand the pain us aussies go through.

I just tried the bend out on a 20 c coin. It was difficult and to be honest, I struggled with it. I managed to get a slight curve in the, however it is minuscule to the 10c coin bend. It is possible, but would require some serious hand muscle.

It took me a good 8-10 seconds to put a slight bend into the 20c coin, whilst I can put a much more solid and " U " curved bend into a 10c coin in a fraction of the time.

I can do 10 cents in 1.5 seconds, and 5 cents bend like butter.

In my routine I have the 10c bent, and I think it is the perfect coin to bend, the spectator also doesn't end up losing any more money then they have to.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask me.

Regards!
[/quote]

Cheers - I have an order in place and look forward to receiving it.
I agree 10c would seem the logical choice
Message: Posted by: sgiandubh (May 11, 2013 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 11:17, MarcLavelle wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-03-15 14:56, sgiandubh wrote:
Coinvexed 3 with brown gimmick ? for UK users save your money and stick with the Silver gimmick. I upgraded at Blackpool and wish I hadn't, the cap improvement is nice albeit you don't need it for the effect. The brown gimmick sucks on UK coins so stick with the silver gimmick save your money and enjoy! I have now purchased some original silver gimmicks and could not be happier with them. I have used coinvexed for many years and it is one of my favourite effects but c'mon WMS be straight when you bring out these improvements when I asked about the differences at Blackpool there was no mention of the change to accomodate US and European coins which means it sucks with UK coins (you might get away with 50 pence coins). The bend is more of an angle than curve and coins slip, not good. I have raised it with WMS and the response pretty poor... (oh yeah I was offered a swap back to an old gimmick so £95 well spent) Well on the bright side it has highlighted how good another magic dealer down in Ashford Kent is...thank you Peter.
[/quote][quote]
On 2013-03-16 10:39, sgiandubh wrote:
As I stated in my original post Coinvexed is a brilliant effect I love it and continue to carry it with me at all times. My problem is the change from silver gimmick to brown one is not good for UK users and this was never mentioned. Get yourself a silver gimmick and you will see the difference in the actual bend which is far superior and it will never slip. As for customer service from WMS let's just say they will no longer be getting my business, yes I know it won't make much difference to them but we all have choice and mine is to conduct business with a company that actually cares about its customers and not one that just takes the money!
[/quote]

Hello, did we speak via email? The Brown Gimmick was introduced over four years ago as the 'Euro' Version of Coinvexed 2, in response to demand for the ability to bend a wider variety of coins. CV3's improvement is on the cap, we all also had the gimmick out ready for people to try and play with at Blackpool! The bend is just as good (in my opinion, but I DO use this at least once every other day) and I also believe the optical bends are more visual with this type of bend. Like I said, It took me a few days to get used to the newer gimmick, when I bought CV2, just because I had used the original for so long.

I am not sure what I said via email for you to think that low of me! And like you said, we offered to change it to your proffered one! You never said you wanted a refund?

We do care about our customer, and always will.

Regards

Marc


[quote]
On 2013-03-16 13:40, magicinsight wrote:
I just finished watching the DVD. I was very impressed with two of the additional routines. A routien dealing with a person's fears is excellent and another routine involving hypnosis was superb. The hypnosis routine was done on another magician in the studio as well as a live performance. The magician appeared visibly emotional during and after the routine. He was not faking one bit. It is heavy stuff and would leave a very strong emotional impact on your spectator. This rouine should be done only if you have knowledge about hypnosis or experience. The routine about someone's fears can be done by anyone and would also leave a very strong and positive emotional feeling in your specattor if doen correctly.
[/quote]


I am glad you like my Phobia presentation!

That was also me that Amit performed on in the studio. Highly irritated by that, as many other hypnotists have tried and failed with me! Was a good experience though!

[quote]
On 2013-03-22 16:52, saysold1 wrote:
Great review - although the idea of having to spin around to get cover to do the work wouldn't be idea.

With my QB2, coins bend like melted butter in about .5 sec
[/quote]

Once you are used to it, CV is the same, it takes no time at all and can be done right in front of the spec's. As with any magic effect, it just takes a little performance practice. You will get very confident, very quickly with it!

For UK users: I prefer bending 50p and 20p coins, the straight edges cause it to have a really nice bend in it!

If anyone needs any help or pointer, please feel free to drop me a PM, I usually pop on here 2 or 3 times a week though!
[/quote]

Marc yes I did email you with some pictures of the coins which CV3 managed to mangle response from you on scale of one to ten about three hence why I do not believe WMS care about customer service, of course on this forum you will say you do but the proof of the pudding is in actions not words. You did offer a swap to a second hand silver gimmick but you seem to miss the point I had just paid £95 for a new one! Good customer service would have been " we have a second hand silver gimmick its on its way to you free of charge whilst we look at the issues with coinvexed 3" There are plenty of other members who are having the same problem with CV3 so why bury your heads in the sand? How about a comment from David Penn ? why not be up front and state you know what the brown gimmick is not as good on UK coins as the silver because we made the jaws too wide ?Hence why you have to use coins with straight sides, why not sell both ? silver for thinner coins brown for thicker coins ? its not rocket science! As stated I now have the original silver gimmick once more and as an effect I love coinvexed. what I don't like is being taken for a ride. We all work hard for our money and when we spend it on magic products we expect a decent service in return.

regards

David
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (May 12, 2013 04:26AM)
Perhaps I'm missing something but once set up, the gimmick is invisible. I have a 50p glued at the front, a dull penny in the middle and a dull 2p at the back and you cant see any brown at all. Not sure about bend difference but optical bends definitely work better with the kind of bend cv3 puts in. in my opinion the type of bend is irrelevent in spectators eyes. I've used marc's phobia routine and whilst I have had reservations about coin bending, this gets best reactions and no ones come close to catching anything. Its well worth the money I think.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (May 12, 2013 04:29AM)
Btw, I've been bending 2p, 1p and 10p amd have had no problems with my gimmick. Perhaps because I'm not used to using the old one. This is my first cv experience.
Message: Posted by: dedikc (Jul 7, 2013 12:38PM)
Calix & Chakkan, the french Magic Magazine called : the Magigazine; just review some products.
Here you can find:
- Coinvexed 3 par David Penn
- Electric Touch + par Yigal Mesika
- Fourseen Wallet par Matthew Wright
- Anthologie de Luke Jermay (a book with lot of Jermay Stuff... translate in french)

If you don't speak french, don't worry, we just subtitles this episod.
Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00z5gD2PlWE
Message: Posted by: DougNicols (Jul 26, 2013 10:30AM)
Now there are upgrades available:

http://www.worldmagicshop.com/Coinvexed_3rd_Generation_by_David_Penn_p/dvdcv3cap.htm

http://www.worldmagicshop.com/Coinvexed_3rd_Generation_by_David_Penn_p/dvdcv3coin.htm

If I have CV1 + CV2 upgrade, any clues which upgrade I would need?
Message: Posted by: jovialrhino (Jul 26, 2013 03:04PM)
Ok just like to say I’m a first time caller so I’m very nervous, my point is…. £90 for this effect at first glance may seem a little high, but it’s a great effect and is so well made it will last a life time. I was talking to a friend and he told me he went out for a night out “around town” and spent £130, all he had to show was a hangover. All I know is ill be performing coin bends with this effect for years to come and getting great reactions…..Money well spent I would say. Well that’s the first post nerves over , with Happy days
Message: Posted by: chappelly (Jul 26, 2013 06:33PM)
Good post jovialrhino.

Coinvexed is excellent, you won't be disappointed.

When you have done this hundreds of times ,and amazed hundreds of people,and look back the cost is insignificant.

Keep up the posts.

Chappelly
Message: Posted by: reignofsound (Jun 24, 2014 04:13PM)
Hi,
Will this bend the newer UK coins?
10p, 2p, 1p etc

Looking at this or QB 3

Thanks
Message: Posted by: paisa23 (Jun 25, 2014 08:00AM)
I have CV2 still don't fully understand what the upgrade was. Wish they had a similar deal like Losanders Tables. Where you can upgrade your current verison.
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 5, 2016 04:03PM)
I have purchased Coinvexed third from someone (at 80 euros) in order to try it and see if I'm happy enough with it. Otherwise I would think selling it to purchase, maybe, QB 3.0. And now, I'm pretty sure I will be selling Coinvexed Third. Why ? The main reason is that it can't bend at all !

It can't bend 10 and 20 cts in euros. And although I succeeded in bending a 2cts euro coin, it was VERY difficult, took me a lot of time and almost slipped off as the coin was so small, and, finally, it left two visible marks on the 2 cts euro. I don't think I can do it in front of people. For such a high price, it's a shame it can't bend those coins. I'm hoping someone here has tried to bend euro coins and he will be telling me I'm wrong, but I think I'm not. Really, sometimes, I feel it's the gimmick that is being damaged, not the coin I'm trying to bend.
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jun 6, 2016 01:13AM)
Mh1001,

It's not that hard. Really. I think you might not be using the bender correctly. Or perhaps you don’t have the necessary hand strength, based on your comment in another thread as follows:

[quote]
If I want to buy a coin bender, two features are the most important :

1. How easy is it to bend. Although I'm a guy, I can tell you without exaggeration that my physical strength is of the level of a girl. I don't have strength at all !
2. How easy is it to conceal.
[/quote]

Jim
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 6, 2016 01:43PM)
Thanks for your reply.
Not sure what you mean by "using the bender correctly". According to the DVD, there is nothing special. You hold the two pieces of the gimmick, and apply strength, when people are not looking directly at your hands. There's just one way to hold the gimmicks. So I don't know why it won't work. Or maybe it's euro coins that are so solid.
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jun 6, 2016 05:27PM)
[quote]On Jun 6, 2016, mh1001 wrote:
Thanks for your reply.
Not sure what you mean by "using the bender correctly". According to the DVD, there is nothing special. You hold the two pieces of the gimmick, and apply strength, when people are not looking directly at your hands. There's just one way to hold the gimmicks. So I don't know why it won't work. Or maybe it's euro coins that are so solid. [/quote]

That's not correct at all. If you watched the DVD you saw David explain very clearly about how to hold the gimmick. I'll send you a PM.

Jim
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Sep 21, 2016 03:01PM)
With the ongoing discussion about Hercules Coin Bender in another thread, that gave me the motivation to try, practice a lot with my QB3. I bent a LOT of 10 and 20 euro cts these 4 last days. I saw some improvements in my ability to bend 10 and 20 euro cts. So, today, I wanted to test my CV3, since it's been a while I haven't used it. Here's a picture :

http://www.virtualmagie.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/15770/filename/Picture%20111.jpg

It took me between 1 and 1.5 seconds. And it was easy. I do not appear as if I was struggling anymore. Don't know why, but to me, it looks like the bend with CV3 has a better look (and better curve) than what is usually done with my QB3.

By the way, I think one of the reason now I am much better than before, when using CV3, could be due to practice but also method. I found that if I use the cap to hold the coin into place, and apply pressure using only the other hand that's holding the other piece of gimmick, the bend happens really easier. I don't remember David Penn recommended to use the gimmick like this but I don't care, since it works much better this way, for me.

I thought that QB was more powerful than CV due to the fact it could bend 10 cts, which wasn't possible with CV. I think now method is more important than what I used to believe. Perhaps in a near future, I will even find a method that will also make bending even easier with my QB. I still prefer my QB, as it's more comfortable to handle, being a one-piece gimmick, unlike CV.
Message: Posted by: lesliemusalo (Feb 9, 2017 10:27AM)
Hi Guys,
here a few toughts and 1 question.

What can it bend in Europe:
EUR-Coins:
5 cent coins: bents like butter, but due to the material (copper) and the thickness/thinness it produces marks easily.
10 cent coins: easily, but for me I don't like, that the coins are so small
20 cent: for me the perfect coin. not to easy to bend, but nice size.
50 cent: You need power, but absolutely ok for me.
For the 2 coin routine I will use 20 cent for the first bend and 50 cent for the second probably.
1 Eur and 2 EUR coins: they fall apart!

As the marks bothered me a little I unsharpened the edges of the c** with a file. Now it's fine.

Thx for the great tip in this thread (sorry I don't now exactly where) on turning the gimmick upside down if You have problems of slipping out coins (espacially I had problems with smaller coins(10 cent/20cent!!!

Now to my question:
Usually if I use a pen for signing something (before I had CV) I allways put the cap on the end of the pen, so I had hands free, I could ask the spectator later to close it (maybe even vor misdirection purpose)
Now: DO You work with two c**s and sw**ch in and out for other tricks with writing?
Do You ever hand out the pen with the CV c** on the end during other tricks? (probably never ever???!!!)
Sometimes I take the pen back 10 minutes later or at the end of a set when I wrap up or for misdirection.
Now I see myself with the problem either letting the spec. hold an open pen for a longer time of I have always the "handle the c** problem"
The CV 3.0 Version now can but put on the and of the pen, but for what situations is this really usefull, if you don't hand it out?

Maybe I think far too complicated...I hope I make myself clear, though!
Magical greetings from Germany
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Feb 9, 2017 11:07AM)
[quote]On Feb 9, 2017, lesliemusalo wrote:
50 cent: You need power, but absolutely ok for me.
[/quote]
The 50 euro cent doesn't fit the cap gimmick. That coin cannot be inserted. How could you say you can bend it ?
Message: Posted by: lesliemusalo (Feb 9, 2017 11:09AM)
I have to update on EUR-Coins, after I played around with it again:
20 CENTS ARE HARD
AND 50 VERY HARD.
Why should I pain myself so much...
I'll probably stick with 5 CENT and 10 CENT even with a little mark and smaller coins..
THey are easy!
Message: Posted by: lesliemusalo (Feb 9, 2017 12:52PM)
@mh1001
In my gimmick 50 EUR-CENT fit perfect...??!!
maybe they have tolerances in production...hopefully not.
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Feb 9, 2017 01:06PM)
Well, I have tried many 50 cts and all of them were too thick. No way I can slide the coin in the sl*t. Anyway, I prefer the old version, where you have two coin gimmicks. First, because I feel this tool gives more strength for bending coins and is wide enough to accommodate 50 euro cts, and furthermore, it resolves the problem you pointed out, which also was one of my problem. The best way to resolve this issue is to execute Penn's two coin bend routine. If you don't, then, indeed, as people signed the coin, it's only natural they will look for the cap or expect you to give back the cap to them, which of course you can't do.

The only advantage of the newest versions versus the first one is economy of space (or pocket space), as you can replace a real sharpie c*p by that gimmick. But I think I much prefer the old version.
Message: Posted by: lesliemusalo (Feb 9, 2017 02:24PM)
Ouch, my Hand hurts!
The c** is so sharp!