(Close Window)
Topic: New buskers set of tricks
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Mar 22, 2013 09:55PM)
Okay so I am new t busking.
At the moment my set is,
Gather a crowd with some little card yricks,
Then do a pick a card reveal it,(similar to gazzo)
then either ropes or jay sankeys mountain trick or card to mouth
Then invisible deck
Then card to orange,
it goes for about 10 mins.
I am llooking for a closer that has a quick and easy setup, I do not like the card to orange cos it takes ages to setup.
Any advice is much appreciated.
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Mar 22, 2013 09:57PM)
My pitch is this, "Ladies and Gentlemen, I don't get paid for doing this, I just do it because I love to perform, so if you have enjoyed my magic, please help to keep the art of street magic alive, and put in a donation to show your appreciation." I might add, "If you enjoyed the show, please tip the hat, if you didn't enjoy the show. please tip the hat... All I ask is that you fold it up so it doesn't blow away." and maybe add "for any tourists, this is a $5 bill, (actually a $20)"
What do you guys think?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Mar 22, 2013 10:28PM)
Just a question - you said 10 minutes. Is that right? That seems like enough material for a half an hour show. It can take me 5 to 7 minutes just to vanish a hanky. My opinion would be to work with just one or two effects and spend more time developing your relationship with your audience. It's better for them to care about you rather than care about your tricks.
Message: Posted by: troppobob (Mar 23, 2013 02:11AM)
G'day Magicman
I was thinking the same thing about the amount of material you have in your short show.
There are 4 effects that follow from your build but my experience of these effects is that it could pretty rushed to fit them in in the 10 minutes.
And I would certainly agree that your card to orange effect has the added drama of re-set plus the messiness aspect.
Let us know how you go.
Bob Latta (aka Troppo Bob)
Message: Posted by: Ado (Mar 23, 2013 03:36AM)
5 to 7 minutes to vanish a hanky? Unless you're a professional stand-up comedy artist, I'd be gone for a long time already... I've watched a few videos on the net of buskers like Gazzo and others, and I feel there's too much patter and beating around the bush, and not enough magic. Then, as a magician, I want to see magic, now, so that might be the reason...

P!
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Mar 23, 2013 10:02AM)
Yes - exactly - its a 'comedy act'. My preference is to treat my show as street theater, and not a magic dealer demo like some county fair hawker. The comedy allows me to create a relationship with the audience. I've been honing my act and character at various street and renaissance festivals for over 8 years now, and I've gotten a half hour show down to about 3 tricks. I know of another act that can captivate an audience for 30 minutes with one trick. On good days, I really don't have problems keeping a 100 or so people for the duration. But I've noticed that the guys I know from the magic club are the ones that tend leave early. It kind of makes me feel like they only stopped by to steal or criticize. Maybe if fellow members of the brotherhood of magicians appreciated the theater aspect of a performance by a fellow magician, and the relationship they create with their audience, they'd have more patience. I appreciate your feedback - thanks. It keeps things in perspective for me.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Mar 23, 2013 10:37AM)
D---! I just spent a half hour writing up a comment and the whole thing got eaten by this machine. I'll try to return and rewrite what I wrote. (fair warning!!!)
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Mar 23, 2013 11:08AM)
And now, WITH FURTHER ADO>>>! (I couldn't resist that opportunity!) --Now you know why I never "made it" in show business!!!

Pizpor! Perhaps it's a good thing that my post went "south" (or wherever posts go when they die)!
Your first post was good, but your second was GREAT. I will rethink a bit what I said.

Bob Latta~ Well said! (I do a whole thing on TEMPO, TIMING, AND TIME when I do a lecture. You've said a lot in a few words!!!

(Further):: Your last name is easier to spell than my newly (?) conferred first name! hee hee
I was writing my first attempt at this and I went 'up' to check on how long you've 'been here'.
When I came back, what I had writ' had faded away.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Mar 23, 2013 12:26PM)
...CONTINUED...:::
I was 14 and Stuart Ross came to our K-12 school with his 55 minute school show.

He did 9 tricks! I remember as if it were yesterday. He opened with the vanishing wand, then the Tarbell c/r rope, card flourishes and fancy shuffles, 10 cards across, card in orange, misers dream, sucker silk to egg, passe bottles, and to close, a big vanish box (like Thayer's Super Vanish Extraordinary). The K-12 audience was laughing throughout the show. They were thoroughly ENTERTAINED.

I was 'new'. I had been doing shows for 7 or 8 months. I had hoped to see more tricks. But, the audience was thoroughly ENTERTAINED.

It was several months before I fully realized that, THE AUDIENCE WAS THOROUGHLY ENTERTAINED!!!

And,it took even longer to realize that: MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING.

Stuart became my first mentor. Later, Clem Magrum, and Roy Mayer 'came along' and I was the luckiest kid magician in 48 states! There wasn't any Chavez course then. There wasn't any Jeff McBride school then. There wasn't any magic Café then! But, I had three successful professionals helping me to learn the 'real work'! --And they didn't charge me a cent! Without their mentoring, counseling, and yes, sometimes just telling me, I would never have made it.

Here's the essence of their advice and counsel: "It aint WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it!" To be honest,it did take awhile for that to 'sink in'. --But, it did!

So, brother Ado! I'm assuming (and 'assuming' is not a really good way to form a judgment)that you are at least relatively 'green' to performing magic. Well, when you're green, you can get ripe. When you're ripe, you just get rotten! --Look at me!

Now, Further! Go back and read Pizpor's post again, and again, and maybe once more, too. (Repetition is the 'mother' of students) I think that 'he and me' had the same parents!

He has obviously learned, by hard work,study,practice, and real experience in the real world! (like all of us who've been 'out there' in the trenches!)

One doesn't learn what Pizpor has learned, by going to magic club meetings! --Those guys who came to see him and left early will probably never really understand! A pity!

I could do a half hour + on the point that NEMO DAT QUOD NON HABET. (No one can give what he does not have.) I'll save that for another time.

BTW...re: the 'brotherhood' of magicians. I think it was Al Baker who said that "...there is too much 'hood' and not enough 'brother'."

7 minutes to vanish a silk!!!
Is the audience being ENTERTAINED? THAT, is the important thing!

The Vernet TT 'came out'in the '70s, J.B. Bobo and I were cutting up jackpots at the SAM convention in Chicago. (We had been friends since 1951)He said, "Have you seen this?" and he vanished a silk. With experience, one can recognize 'moves'. I said, "Hey! What a great use for a TT!" (Up 'til Vernet came out. TTs were small stubby things that definitely could not do what a Vernet can do.) That fall, I tested it out as the opener for my school show. Great! It was a one minute bit, and the audience loved it. BTW,I used a Vernet and an 18" silk. Well, actually a half silk and now a diamond cut.

Max Howard and I have a "thing" about the old Burling Hull routine for vanishing a silk, using the TT. Burling used the old metal one, and a totally different handling to vanish an actual 18" silk.

When I want 'time', I use the Hull method and I average about 3.5 minutes. I could do longer if I used more schtick and lines, but,I'm happy with the 3.5.

I have no doubt that Pizpor can get 5=7 minutes of ENTERTAINMENT out of this simple bit.

So, '491', see what you started! This is all your 'fault'!!!

Mary Mowder says,'Dick, you are a man of a few words--but you keep repeating them!!!"

Everybody! Go, read again those fundamental books. Tarbell, Henry Hay, Maskelynne & Devant, Fitzkee!!! There's a relatively new one out: KEN WEBER'S "MAXIMUM ENTERTAINMENT" (It's excellent!)

Don Lawton, in a lecture, said, "Don't 'kill' time, 'fill' time, with ENTERTAINMENT!
Message: Posted by: Ray Bertrand (Mar 23, 2013 02:38PM)
My friend Dick; you said it so eloquently; "Here's the essence of their advice and counsel: "It aint WHAT you do, it's HOW you do it!" To be honest,it did take awhile for that to 'sink in'. --But, it did!" You can get a lot of entertainment from a TT and a silk, or anything else that costs little. Watch Slydini to paper napkins over the head. It costs nothing but a few napkins 'borrowed' from the neighbourhood fast food joint and you have an entire audience rolling in the aisles with laughter. The magic effect is the vehicle. The entertainer (magician) is the driver.

Ray
Message: Posted by: mike bonfield (Mar 23, 2013 02:49PM)
Vanish hankie
Rope trick
card to wallett
cups and balls
lots of gags

good luck on the street
Message: Posted by: Ado (Mar 23, 2013 04:33PM)
Pizpor: Thank you for your response.

I guess that waht I meant is that the vanish of a silk is such a simple a direct effect that I can't see a reason for it to take time. If you were to do, say, a bill in lemon, there's plenty of time to be spent for each action: introduction of the trick, borrowing of a bill, signing of it, introduction of fruits, selection of one, vanish of bill, drawing of a knife, opening, revelation. That's as many interactions with the audience. Now, for a silk vanish, there are so few opportunities for interaction! Introduce trick, get silk, vanish it. Then end. I like a god comedy act, but I hate when short tricks take time because the performer focuses its act on unrelated things (like this kid of walked behind him, or a remark regarding the clothing of spectators, etc...).
I have not seen your performance, so I am of course not judging it, and the fact hat I know at least one quick way to vanish a silk makes me wait for it. Wait, wait, wait. Until I get bored, because I want to "see" the work, not have it hidden in a continuous stream of unrelated patter.

I feel like some busking magic acts are bad comedy acts justified by magic (which may be however very good magic), but also very bad magic acts in fine, because they are not focusing on the essential, because they demolish the construction of otherwise good effects, to name only what I can think of now.


I don't yet have performing experience, but I've watched a few performers in real life and on youtube, and I wish there were quieter buskers who'd do more of a stage/parlour show instead of being noisy, cynical people who keep walking around. But then again, that's just about me complaining about not seeing the magic I like, which doesn't mean no one does it either... I guess it'd be an interesting question to ask at a gathering of "indoor magicans."

P!
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Mar 23, 2013 05:24PM)
Hmmmm... yeah, I think you're making some assumptions based on some the limitations of YouTube. I'd ask that you keep an open mind.

The bill in lemon example is focused on the steps related to the process. Sorry, but the process is boring. So finding ways to make each step of the process interesting is what will set you apart. I think it's a mistake for you to presuppose that because you're not interested in the by-play between performer and audience, that your lay-audience won't be either. Trust me - they don't care about the steps you go through to get to that bill in the lemon.

Street Theater is not just trying to stop a couple of cute girls and get them to ogle the street magician. It's about the act. The whole. Beginning , middle, end.

Watch a good juggler or unicycle act sometime. Good ones will do a whole bunch of little bits on their way to the big finish. They develop a relationship with the audience, which compels that audience to want to stick around and see what's going to happen.

A guy with a deck of cards is just that - a guy with a deck of cards. But a show, or an act, will have a promise. The performer needs to deliver on that promise. That's what people remember. But the concept can be hard for new performers to grasp.

I apologize for the thread getting off track, but I want to say one more thing. Someone comes to the Café, is interested in busking, and asks for free advice. One person offers advice to consider developing an act based on creating a relationship with the audience through the use of comedy and magic. Someone else offers advice that the performers should rattle off tricks as quickly as possible, because they don't care for the by-play and could get bored to quickly. Both opinions are equally valid from different points of view. The person asking for the advice is free to use whatever advice suits their goals.

And I wish you and them nothing but the best. I mean that sincerely.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Mar 23, 2013 06:53PM)
Well Ado...

It is very apparent that absolutely nothing that I can say is going to be of any help to you, except possibly this: There aint no shallow end in this pool. Before you jump in, be sure you know how to swim.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Mar 23, 2013 07:05PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-22 22:55, magicman491 wrote:
Okay so I am new t busking.
At the moment my set is,
Gather a crowd with some little card yricks,
Then do a pick a card reveal it,(similar to gazzo)
then either ropes or jay sankeys mountain trick or card to mouth
Then invisible deck
Then card to orange,
it goes for about 10 mins.
I am llooking for a closer that has a quick and easy setup, I do not like the card to orange cos it takes ages to setup.
Any advice is much appreciated.
[/quote]
There are only 3 things to busking
Make them stop
Make them stay
Make them pay

That's it, but it a witch to do. As others have said you have a 45 minute show there and you aren't ready for that. Cut it down to 3 effects and most important thing you can do is learn the names of people in your audience and address them by name. That way you become a friend of the audience. People give money to friends not to machines than crank out tricks.
Message: Posted by: magicman491 (Mar 24, 2013 05:21AM)
Is it true that the longer your show is, the more people will pay?
Should I do a 30-40 min show? Or 3X10 min shows.
Which option will most likely make more money ?
Thanks
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Mar 24, 2013 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-24 06:21, magicman491 wrote:
Is it true that the longer your show is, the more people will pay?
Should I do a 30-40 min show? Or 3X10 min shows.
Which option will most likely make more money ?
Thanks
[/quote]
NO!! remember that people are going places to do things and you are stopping them for a while. Keep it short! 3 effects 8 to 15 minutes hat them hard.
Message: Posted by: mike bonfield (Mar 24, 2013 03:21PM)
Paddy ..is right 10 mins shows ...step right up come right in make them stay make them pay
be loud ...be bold ....3 tricks lots of patter
Message: Posted by: Ado (Mar 24, 2013 03:29PM)
Yeah, sorry for hijicking the thread with my doubts..

Magicman491: try to record your performance (and the public), and to post it here. You'll probably havesome good fedback reagrding your presentation, the order of your effects, and the overall timing and crowd management.

P!
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (Mar 24, 2013 09:48PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-24 06:21, magicman491 wrote:
Is it true that the longer your show is, the more people will pay?
Should I do a 30-40 min show? Or 3X10 min shows.
Which option will most likely make more money ?
[/quote]

In general: the longer you keep them, the larger the crowd, and the bigger the hat.
However, that assumes that you can KEEP them for a long show.
There is also an exception: if you have a really quick build, and a tight 15 minute show, you can get huge hats.
But duration isn't the important part regarding hats, anyway.
What's important is YOU. The reason that they pay you is because they LIKE you.
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Mar 24, 2013 10:43PM)
Important comments here. Pizpor's (regardless of that dreadful title) and RiffRaff's are my favorite.

Like many a Master said before, "it's not what we do, but how we do it". The "doing" of it consists of building relationships in our audience; between each other and us.

The tricks are merely an adjunct to the real magic; bringing people closer to one another -- friendly like.
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Mar 25, 2013 08:57AM)
"But I've noticed that the guys I know from the magic club are the ones that tend leave early. It kind of makes me feel like they only stopped by to steal or criticize. Maybe if fellow members of the brotherhood of magicians appreciated the theater aspect of a performance by a fellow magician, and the relationship they create with their audience, they'd have more patience."

and maybe magic would not be viewed as some cheese act to be viewed only at kid shows and nerd magicians attacking the oppisite sex
Message: Posted by: Yellowcustard (Mar 27, 2013 02:19AM)
Were I busk it not got the large foot fall were you stop 3 people build and build to 30+ to then start your main routine over a 30-40 minute period. But because the flow is contius and people are kind of on there way it is good to stop 3 start you first trick and build to 10 then build to up ton 15-20 in a 10-15 minute show.

I have 3 effect,
Sponge balls from purse frame- Chatting to crowd and edge building
Egg bag- Fun comday with a cute kid, Hat line while there holding out for the end of this routine along with a promise of begin left open mouthed on the next trick.
Single rope- A stand alone pice which smothly enter my finale hat line at the end.

The point I am trying to make is think of the environment your in as well
. I saw a guy busk by a Burrito stand. He told me he worked out how long it took to eat one. As pepoel hung out he would do a rotine to fit.
Message: Posted by: fireperformer911 (Mar 27, 2013 07:59AM)
Magicman491

It about YOU.

If your naturally funny do comedy magic tricks if your not don't
If your a chick magnet do magic tricks hot women like and the crowd will build if your not don't
If your a young man and parents will like you because you remind them of their children then do magic tricks that families will like if not don't
If your a parent and like kids then do a magic trick that uses a kid volunteer get the kid to like you and your audience will like you if you don't like kids don't
If your mysterious type of guy do mysterious magic tricks if your not don't
If you do beautiful sleight of hand magic do beautiful sleight of hand magic if your not don't
If your magic sucks swallow a sword.

You can't lie to your audience and try to convince them with magic tricks that your something your not. The audience will see right through to the lie and then your a fake and audiences don't like and tip fakes.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (Mar 27, 2013 09:59AM)
Yes but remember that you have a character when performing and that character's personality is the one you present to the public, not your personality. i.e. Kozmo character is outgoing fun loving and funny. Personally he is one of the most gifted (intellectually) people I have ever met. A genius. Bobby Maverick character is loud & brash, but clean (not like Gazzo) personally he is an world class executive chef on a par with Bobby Flay and a great friend. Emmet Kelley world famous clown. in reality he hated kids and was a heavy drinker
Message: Posted by: fireperformer911 (Mar 27, 2013 11:33AM)
Your character has to be a lot of yourself just amped up unless your a acomplished actor which most of us ARE NOT. Gazzo is funny all day will make you laugh harder at lunch than on the pitch. Pee wee herman never played James Bond and Sean Connery never played a nerd. The audience will type cast you so don't try to be someone your not.
Message: Posted by: ROBERT BLAKE (Apr 15, 2013 12:46PM)
Don't care what magicians think or do during your show. all they want is seeing tricks. they are not interested in you and how you build your show. most of the time they are the worst audience possible. telling loudly how the trick works. discussing your show among lay audiences. bad tippers and leave early. no respect.

think of what counts the people who enjoy your show and tip you.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Apr 15, 2013 02:06PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-23 13:26, Dick Oslund wrote:
And,it took even longer to realize that: MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING.

[/quote]

YOU ARE WRONG. Magic is inherently entertaining..... but only to magicians. :)

Magic moments are short lived.
Magic tricks are not very entertaining except to magicians.
Magic Patter is awful. Admit it.

It's the entertainer that brings it all to life.

You can recognize a person that hasn't learned this yet:
1. they disagree
2. they keep switching in and out new tricks trying to find a trick to do the entertaining for them
3. they post "what are the top 5 ... " threads on the Café in hopes of the holy grail.

The ones that do realize it.. you can spot them too:
1. they don't buy much magic. same tricks, year after year
2. they are focued on comedy, theater, bits, callbacks, running gags, etc.
3. they are looking for the spots in their act that aren't getting laughs and big reactions and filling those holes with more stuff over time.
4. they own a notebook full of ideas and thoughts on improving their act

The stuff you add naturally over the years is always the best stuff.
Those with the insight to figure that out and the patience let an act develop over a period of years will always end up with a
great and entertaining show.

Or you can keep switching in and out your tricks, spending gobs of money and always seeming like a beginner, out on the pitch.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Apr 15, 2013 11:05PM)
Sorry, Frank. I stand by my statement. And, I'll repeat it right here and right now. I LEARNED THIS MANY MANY YEARS AGO. I've been performing for money since October 24, 1945. --When I was 13 and made $26 for my 35 minute show in the local Junior High School for about 500 students.

So: MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. A good magician/performer can make it entertaining. If he doesn't, he'll be out of work fairly quickly. Either no agent will book him, or he wont be able to book himself.

Your next point is correct. MAGIC MOMENTS ARE SHORT LIVED. Magic moments are just that: THEY ARE MOMENTARY. --And, those magic moments only happen in one place. Not on stage, not in the magician's hands. They happen only in the minds of the audience.

If the magic tricks that I perform were not entertaining, I would never have been booked for years by the top School Assembly Bureaus in the country. Bureau managers regularly sent me out to 'square the beef' when a talent did not measure up to what the high school expected.

I was a member of the auditions committee for 2 major assembly bureaus for probably more years than you've been a magician. My program consistently ranked in the top 3%. I've even topped the talent lists. On my first tour for North Dakota State University Division of Independent Study, my program received a the highest rating of any magic program they had previously booked. (Loring Campbell, C. Thomas Magrum, Marv Merrilat. Neil Foster et al.)

SOME magician's patter is awful. Absolutely right. Some is worse than awful. You wont hear me saying: "Lo and behold" I'm not a 'dese, dem and dose' speaker. I know how to write a clear, concise sentence--and how to speak it. You won't hear a lot of "cool" and 'like uh' 'awesome' and similar word wax and clichés when I talk. I have never 'disappeared' something. I know the difference between a transitive and an intransitive verb. As a matter of fact, I long ago learned to write and speak 'lines'. I think "patter" is not a good term. Check out the definition.

Yes, to bring it all to 'life' requires a real entertainer.

I have learned a lot of things years ago.

I reserve the right to disagree with anyone, but I try not to be disagreeable in doing so.

I do not constantly switch tricks in an out hoping to find one that will do MY job (entertaining) Over my 68 years as an entertainer, my show has slowly evolved. (check out the definition of evolution)In 1992, I added the mutilated parasol to the show. That's the most recent addition to the repertoire. If you like, ask me, and I'll tell you within a year or so, when an effect was put in the show. (EXAMPLES: Ovette's Repeat Knots--1946, Serpentine silk-1947,Pom pom stick-1985, card shuffles and flourishes-1946,Misers Dream-1946,Color change silk-1947,golf ball routine-1947,20thC silks-1948, ETC. I do think that the presentation of said material has improved as I gained experience. 20+thousand shows will "do" that.

I just joined this café in December. I'm not completely sure that I know what the "top 5" is/are. I can make an intelligent guess.

I think I match your next four points. The philosophy is: "One can only coast in one direction". -or- "When you stop getting better, you start getting worse." But we differ on a definition. One can't buy "magic". (Remember, it only exists in the audience's minds.) One can buy props, and secrets, which are the 'tools' of an artist/performer. (A trick like music, only exists while it's being performed.

Laughs! big reactions! I've done the same basic routines for so many years, that I don't need to 'think' about the trick being performed. Instead, I'm listening to the audience responses,--and adjusting the performance to the immediate situation, if necessary. Tempo, timing and time are all critical to the success of the show. -And, I know the definition of all three terms.

The contents of my overstuffed notebooks have all been, or are being transferred to this infernal electrisch peckenclacker to make them more accessible.

Jay Marshall and I shared the same thinking in developing and producing an act. The key point of our thinking is/was EDITING. Once the act is
set, the way to improve it is to edit.

I sincerely hope that I've cleared the 'air'.

BTW>>>An experienced associate (a professional of proven experience and talent)has informed me that the OP of this thread is a 14 year old. Apparently, he posts questions and requests for help in many forums (for a!) also apparently he is on facebook,with the same posts. I wrote a post in the 'busking forum' a month ago. He has yet to respond. I do think that I've wasted my time trying to be helpful.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Apr 16, 2013 01:05AM)
Just so you know...

I was basically agreeing with you when I wrote...

[b]
YOU ARE WRONG. Magic is inherently entertaining..... but only to magicians.
[/b]
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 3, 2013 11:54PM)
If magic is not inherently entertaining what value is it? If one doesn't think magic has inherent value to entertain why use it as a vehicle when there are many other art forms one could use?

If you really believe this notion that magic has no entertainment value aren't you just wasting your time using magic to entertain as opposed to something people WOULD find to be inherently entertaining?

Honestly if I ever came to the conclusion that magic was ONLY appealing to other magicians I would quit for good without hesitation.
Message: Posted by: Floyd Collins (May 4, 2013 08:57AM)
:)
I think the relational that many seasoned magi have found about magic in itself, is that magic in its self is not entertaining enough, and I say enough to be an emotional response to sustain the idea that the audience is fully entertained. Magic is a vessel to create an emotion, however the trick itself does not do that, the performer does. Magicians however look for the plot, the mis-direction and the skills whereas the layman does not, by looking for those things a magician is more entertained in just watching a trick because they are invested in looking for those things, thus creating entertainment for the magician.

I think the point that is trying to be made here is that magic in itself is a service to the magician that the lay audience needs more than just the trick. So yes magic has no entertainment value on its own, the emotion alone is too short lived to be classified as entertainment. Not saying that it is not an emotional response to what the person is seeing but that is not classified as entertainment. Much like watching a bid, take flight for the first time is awesome and remarkable but it is too short lived to be considered entertainment.
That’s my thoughts on it anyways.
--Floyd
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 4, 2013 06:37PM)
My point really is if magic is lacking in essential elements necessary to entertain why use magic? Seems to me magic would be the wrong vehicle for someone who thinks this way. Just do comedy or drama or whatever suits your fancy.Why force something you consider to be lacking on an audience?

I'm not suggesting one should not make an effort to make your magic entertaining but this notion that magic lacks inherent entertainment value I find to be strange. Quoting Darwin Ortiz "This sort of magic results from what I call "Fitzkee's fallacy," the belief that magic has no inherent entertainment value. In Showmanship for Magicians, Dariel Fitzkee's prescription for making magic entertaining is to introduce music, dance, comedy and sex appeal into the magic performance. In his view, magic is some sort of bitter pill that you have to sugar-coat in order to get the audience to swallow."
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 4, 2013 06:39PM)
I'll include the rest of the quote.

"I don't want you to think that there is anything wrong with employing such elements to add to the appeal of a magic performance. But thinking that this is all there is to making magic entertaining overlooks the most obvious, and most important, way you can make magic more entertaining: by making the magic itself more entertaining.

If you don't believe that magic itself can be entertaiing, if you don't believe that experiencing apparent impossibilities can be strong, unique and memborable entertainment for an audience, I wont argue the point with you. I'll only suggest that you give up magic. If you really think that magic is of no value except as a peg on which to hang music, dance, comedy and sex appeal, you should become a musician, dancer, comedian or stripper and forget about the magic. "
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (May 4, 2013 08:42PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-16 02:05, Frank Starsini wrote:
Just so you know...

I was basically agreeing with you when I wrote...

[b]
YOU ARE WRONG. Magic is inherently entertaining..... but only to magicians.
[/b]
[/quote]

OK Frank!, It is possible that I misunderstood your statement. If that is so, I'll apologize!

But, I stand by my point that MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENERTAINING!

I posted recently in another forum a few more pertinent points. I shall repeat them here.

A few years ago, I witnessed a substantial part of the audience at an evening show of one of the BIG national societies' conventions, get up and walk out (I mean public, not magicians. The line formed so quickly that a line actually formed at the exit!

I witnessed the same thing at a regional convention in a large Midwestern city. The first half had a local amateur, who had to stop his act and "restart" a trick. The second performer was a NYC magician, who totally lost the audience. The third magician (another NYC professional wore a black suit, black shirt, and black hat (the stage was hung in black, also). He performed the MALINI EGG BAG, which uses a black bag. He finished with a t/r cigarette paper --all this before an audience of about 1500. The fourth act was a local juggler who got into a fight with gravity--and gravity won.

The audience numbered about a thousand, of which about 700 were public. At intermission, the public formed a line at the box office to demand their money back.

These people did not find magic entertaining!.

I served a number of years on the audition committee for the School Assembly Service of Chicago and the National School Assemblies of Hollywood, CA. Every year, a number of young magician 'wannabees would audition. If we were lucky, we might be able to select one that we would be able to book. I remember one young man who showed up back stage with a cardboard carton, with a shipping label from Abbotts. It was still sealed. Backstage, the young man opened the carton, read the instructions, placed the props on his table, and when introduced, fumbled through a half dozen "catalog tricks".

Another was so bad that the bureau manager cut him off in the middle of his first trick.

MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. A talented magician, who has done his 'homework' can make it entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Floyd Collins (May 4, 2013 08:55PM)
ShirtlessKirk

I don’t think it is about giving up magic, at all. It to me is about finding the real entertainment in what we do, that being you not the trick. If you feel the trick alone is entertaining, then show me the trick that performs without the magician having anything to do with making it entertaining and we might have something to go with here.

It was not until my 20s (Now 45) when I started doing some stand-up that I realized that entertainment was not from the magic trick it was from how I presented it that makes it entertaining. Up till that point I did trick after trick to the smatter of polite applause. Once I realized that the magic trick was not what made them want to see more it was my performance and how I presented the trick, is when I became aware of what I was truly doing with my skills and craft as a magician. I don’t think it is a matter of magic not having any value, it is a matter of how you perceive what it is you’re doing as a magician that makes the difference.

For many years I have performed mentilisam, and still do. Entertainment from my mentalist show has little to do with tricks, and more to do with the magic that is performed inside the audiences mind.. The roller-coaster ride I take them on, happens because of my talent not any trick. Is it still magic, you bet, but the trick is not what makes it entertaining it is the performer.

But you are correct there are many ways to entertain without magic, there are some comedy magicians who don’t perform a real trick and entertain in comedy clubs. However I don’t feel it is a matter of what instrument you play, or how well you dance; if you’re going to be a magician then your love for magic as a craft is why you perform it. Again I say you perform it, you setup the tension, you release the tension the trick only aids in doing so.

Just a thought--
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 4, 2013 10:02PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-04 21:42, Dick Oslund wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-16 02:05, Frank Starsini wrote:
Just so you know...

I was basically agreeing with you when I wrote...

[b]
YOU ARE WRONG. Magic is inherently entertaining..... but only to magicians.
[/b]
[/quote]

OK Frank!, It is possible that I misunderstood your statement. If that is so, I'll apologize!

But, I stand by my point that MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENERTAINING!

I posted recently in another forum a few more pertinent points. I shall repeat them here.

A few years ago, I witnessed a substantial part of the audience at an evening show of one of the BIG national societies' conventions, get up and walk out (I mean public, not magicians. The line formed so quickly that a line actually formed at the exit!

I witnessed the same thing at a regional convention in a large Midwestern city. The first half had a local amateur, who had to stop his act and "restart" a trick. The second performer was a NYC magician, who totally lost the audience. The third magician (another NYC professional wore a black suit, black shirt, and black hat (the stage was hung in black, also). He performed the MALINI EGG BAG, which uses a black bag. He finished with a t/r cigarette paper --all this before an audience of about 1500. The fourth act was a local juggler who got into a fight with gravity--and gravity won.

The audience numbered about a thousand, of which about 700 were public. At intermission, the public formed a line at the box office to demand their money back.

These people did not find magic entertaining!.

I served a number of years on the audition committee for the School Assembly Service of Chicago and the National School Assemblies of Hollywood, CA. Every year, a number of young magician 'wannabees would audition. If we were lucky, we might be able to select one that we would be able to book. I remember one young man who showed up back stage with a cardboard carton, with a shipping label from Abbotts. It was still sealed. Backstage, the young man opened the carton, read the instructions, placed the props on his table, and when introduced, fumbled through a half dozen "catalog tricks".

Another was so bad that the bureau manager cut him off in the middle of his first trick.

MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. A talented magician, who has done his 'homework' can make it entertaining.
[/quote]




The examples given indicate a level of incompetence on part of the performers. Magic performed incompetently is not magic and won't appear as such to an audiance. Those examples in no way show that audiences find magic unentertaining just bad performances/performers.

If? magic has no inherent value to entertain it is a poor art.

It has been my perception (maybe wrong) that often magicians who think that magic has not inherent entertainment value often also believe that people don't like to be fooled. While I disagree with both notions I just can't understand why one would choose to be a magician while holding these beliefs.

Presenting the impossible has value. If you don't think so why not do something else?
Message: Posted by: RiffRaff (May 5, 2013 01:42PM)
The word "magic" has several meanings.
I think this analysis requires that we separate the trick from the presentation.
While everyone seems to agree that presentations can be either boring or entertaining, I would argue that the trick itself can be both as well.
The public found Blaine to be very entertaining even though his presentation was sparse. A large part of the entertainment clearly had to come from the trick. His trick selections all had simple plots. (Evidenly biting a piece of a quarter and spitting it back is highly entertaining.)
What lay audiences do not appreciate is long, complicated tricks that require an explanation by the performer. ie. "please select three cards and remember them... now I will remove the four jacks which represent detectives. I will shuffle the four jacks into the deck which is the city that we live in, and ... tada! in between each of the four jacks is your selection!!!! (I can just see that spectator telling his friends of the marvel that he has just witnessed - "I selected three cards and the magician found them in between four other cards!")
Sorry, I got off target. Some tricks are inherently entertaining. Others are not. So everybody's right. Magic IS inherently entertaining, and magic is NOT inherently entertaining.
All we can do is select from the many entertaining tricks and learn to perform them in an entertaining manner.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (May 5, 2013 09:14PM)
Well Mr. Shirtless Kirk, you are certainly entitled to your OPINIONS.

OPINIONS, however, are just that.

At the risk of this becoming an 'ad hominem argument', I will simply say this:
When you have had some real experience performing as a magician, you may have learned something.

(Sophocles said thousands of years ago: "One learns by DOING THE THING."

Although, it's not necessary to be a full time performing professional magician to be an entertaining magician, it is necessary to at least understand the basic philosophy of a magician. It is further necessary to be able to define the terms used in the performance of magic.

I am not going to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty. I am not going to accuse you of invincible ignorance. But, you do appear to have 'earned' both of those 'descriptions'.

Considering your attitude, and your creed, I really have sympathy for any audience that you perform for, --or any young, impressionable magicians whose performing experience that you affect.

in MY OPINION, you will probably continue to express your beliefs, and also, in my OPINION, the world of magic will be the poorer for it.

This is my final word on this topic, I do not hide behind a pseudonym. I am not afraid to affix my 'signature' to anything I write.

Dick Oslund
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 5, 2013 10:20PM)
Why do magic if you don't think it has no entertainment value?

Why Mr Dick Oslund choose to be a magician if you don't feel it is entertaining to an audience? Why not do comedy or acting or music or whatever else people find entertaining?

People DO find magic entertaining. This is fact, were it not true magic would have died out long ago. Yes theatrical elements,comedy, the personality of the performer all contribute to the success of a presentation but that does not mean magic is not inherently entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Faulkner (May 5, 2013 10:38PM)
Magic is a subset of acting....Someone smarter than me said that.
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 5, 2013 10:42PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-05 22:14, Dick Oslund wrote:
Well Mr. Shirtless Kirk, you are certainly entitled to your OPINIONS.

OPINIONS, however, are just that.

At the risk of this becoming an 'ad hominem argument', I will simply say this:
When you have had some real experience performing as a magician, you may have learned something.

(Sophocles said thousands of years ago: "One learns by DOING THE THING."

Although, it's not necessary to be a full time performing professional magician to be an entertaining magician, it is necessary to at least understand the basic philosophy of a magician. It is further necessary to be able to define the terms used in the performance of magic.

I am not going to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty. I am not going to accuse you of invincible ignorance. But, you do appear to have 'earned' both of those 'descriptions'.

Considering your attitude, and your creed, I really have sympathy for any audience that you perform for, --or any young, impressionable magicians whose performing experience that you affect.

in MY OPINION, you will probably continue to express your beliefs, and also, in my OPINION, the world of magic will be the poorer for it.

This is my final word on this topic, I do not hide behind a pseudonym. I am not afraid to affix my 'signature' to anything I write.

Dick Oslund
[/quote]



These of course are not only my opinions. The quote I had posted earlier was from the Darwin Ortiz book Strong Magic. So basically any magician who feels magic has some inherent entertainment value must be lacking in performance experience to "know" that it is otherwise?

In your opinion those who espouse such beliefs are doing magic a disservice?

I guess I need to get out of magic as I guess I have no understanding of how a laymen views magic.

If laymen don't find magic to have some inherent entertainment value, if this is a fact, I will get out magic as I see no reason to waste my time with something laymen would only find marginally interesting.
Message: Posted by: Paddy (May 6, 2013 08:02AM)
Kirk, Magic does not have an intrinsic entertainment value, but for that fact a lot of music doesn't entertain either. The value is put in by the performer. Anybody can sing a song, but believe me you don't want to hear me sing, however Luciano Pavarotti can sing the alphabet and get a standing O for it. He is a real performer and musician. I have done shows and been preceded by some little kid who did the same effect as one in my show. [I did not do that one so as not to embarrass the kid] Same effect' little Johnny got nothing, in my shows I get applause. It's not the magic it's the performance.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (May 6, 2013 11:27AM)
Thanks Paddy, for your 'back up'

I've been digging through a pile of old books, looking for the first printed explanation of the twisted string, cut & restored string trick (for want of a better name~~!) and came across a short 'essay' by Mark Wilson, written in one of the early KID STUFF books (Frances Marshall). Mark Wilson agrees with us, and in almost identical words!

I do not like to get embroiled in argumentative discussions, but, I've noticed that there are a great many YOUNG guys joining this motley crew. They are full of energy and enthusiasm! --But, not much knowledge, wisdom or experience.

I'm sure that only a few of them will really stay that interested and progress to performing a creditable show, but, they deserve, at least to be "exposed" (oops, I should never use THAT word!)to the 'real work'. If nothing else, they'll better appreciate a good magic show, when they see one!

I'm not going to pass along how a "trick works" to someone whom I don't know well, but I do feel that we can help these future "greats" (!!!???!!!) understand how "magic works"! (Philosophy, psychology, etc.)

When I worked high schools, I would follow my opening trick with a brief explanation of how our senses function in relation to our brains. I would point out that a magic show was about 85% applied psychology, 5% sleight of hand skill, 5% esoteric science principles, and 5% sensory illusions. I then did several simple tricks like the old stretching boomerangs, to help them understand. (The idea of doing that was passed along to me by the late Roy Mayer, a veteran school show magician and one of my early mentors.)

These young people then realized that although I hoped to fool them, for fun, I WAS NOT PLANNING TO TRY TO MAKE FOOLS OF THEM.

They came into the auditorium sometimes with a negative attitude toward magic. Before they left at the finish, They very often STOOD UP WHEN THEY APPLAUDED!!!

Over the years, in many schools, I was rebooked every three or four years. (They always told me that when I came the first time, they were going to give me a chicken feather overcoat with a tar lining, but the tar hadn't been hot enough, and they wanted another opportunity!
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 6, 2013 12:32PM)
I believe music has inherent entertainment value, a band, singer, musician without an ounce of showmanship but technical ability still can entertain to some degree. Without the entertainment value being there intrinsically you would have a shaky foundation upon which to build from. Just because one states that magic has inherent entertainment value does not mean you want/expect people to stop at mere technical understanding of how magic works and not develop any further.

Now it may be that those who think this way of magic believe that no art has inherent entertainment value and that magic is no different.

I just don't see why anyone would think that of magic and not other forms of entertainment but still choose to do magic instead of something else they think has inherent entertainment value.

Ricky Jay stated that "Magic is a powerful art that can support a weak performer."

Becoming a better performer makes it all the more entertaining and should be a goal of all who desire to perform but you can't ignore magic's inherent value to entertain.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (May 6, 2013 03:34PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-04 21:42, Dick Oslund wrote:

Another was so bad that the bureau manager cut him off in the middle of his first trick.

MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. A talented magician, who has done his 'homework' can make it entertaining.
[/quote]

Note that every magician you mentioned was doing bad magic. Even the tricks that worked were not well chosen for the venue.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (May 7, 2013 08:47AM)
Ed....I WAS THERE...WERE YOU?

The TRICKS that were done were good tricks. It was the performers who were not good.

Magic only happens in the mind of the spectator. No, the magic wasn't bad. It was the inept performers who had no concept of how to present the tricks they were performing (?) so that the performance would be entertaining, that was bad.

It was not the venue. The tricks were OK. It was the poor performances.

I posted recently some definitions of terms in the BOXES, TUBES, BAGS forum.
The topic was: "What's a great opening effect for a small audience". May I suggest that you check out that post.

I do have some credentials! I am not a 'first o' May' I have about 68 years of performing experience, all over North America. I have worked national and regional conventions, I have worked the Magic Castle several times. I have done corporate work, I have done about 20,000 school shows. I have been involved in writing, editing and publishing several of MAGIC INC. books.
('KID STUFF FIVE' and 'ENCYCLOPEDIA OF IMPROMPTU MAGIC'. I have presented my lecture at national conventions, at the Magic Castle, several times (Dai Vernon told me that "A lot of the castle magicians should have been here for this!") and perhaps a hundred local magic clubs. --and have repeated the lecture at many clubs.

What is your experience?
Message: Posted by: Paddy (May 7, 2013 11:55AM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-06 13:32, ShirtlessKirk wrote:
...I just don't see why anyone would think that of magic and not other forms of entertainment but still choose to do magic instead of something else they think has inherent entertainment value...
[/quote]
Kirk, I do it because I am GOOD at magic and entertaining. Look at any trick, it takes a few minutes to learn how to do it. But yjere is no way anybody will entertain with it. BUT, when I put my self, my body, my soul, my personality into this "trick" it becomes an effect. Suddenly 1 minute of boredom becomes 7 to 10 minutes of memories for my audience. Why? Not the magic, but ME, what I have put into it.

I know it sounds egotistical, but I believe it to be true.
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (May 7, 2013 12:19PM)
Lets see if I can clarify, do you believe this video is inherently entertaining, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MH4941WYFU, I would say no.

But this is the same effect I find quite entertaining,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDCUXymvDYI
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 7, 2013 02:09PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-07 12:55, Paddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-05-06 13:32, ShirtlessKirk wrote:
...I just don't see why anyone would think that of magic and not other forms of entertainment but still choose to do magic instead of something else they think has inherent entertainment value...
[/quote]
Kirk, I do it because I am GOOD at magic and entertaining. Look at any trick, it takes a few minutes to learn how to do it. But yjere is no way anybody will entertain with it. BUT, when I put my self, my body, my soul, my personality into this "trick" it becomes an effect. Suddenly 1 minute of boredom becomes 7 to 10 minutes of memories for my audience. Why? Not the magic, but ME, what I have put into it.

I know it sounds egotistical, but I believe it to be true.
[/quote]




Not sure any trick takes a few minutes to learn how to do it. Not one thing in my repertoire took that short a time to learn. I think people are missing the point. If magic has no inherent value to entertain why choose to do magic over something else. Being good at it is not enough reason. If magic has to be sugar coated for people to enjoy it I can't see much value in it.
Message: Posted by: ShirtlessKirk (May 7, 2013 02:14PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-07 13:19, tboehnlein wrote:
Lets see if I can clarify, do you believe this video is inherently entertaining, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MH4941WYFU, I would say no.

But this is the same effect I find quite entertaining,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDCUXymvDYI
[/quote]


I like Mike Gallo and yes he took an old effect and did something different with it but I find neither entertaining, mainly because I don't think much of ball and vase.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 7, 2013 02:43PM)
[quote]
On 2013-03-24 06:21, magicman491 wrote:
Is it true that the longer your show is, the more people will pay?
Should I do a 30-40 min show? Or 3X10 min shows.
Which option will most likely make more money ?
Thanks
[/quote]
You must be creative. Do not copy off of anyone else. Be yourself. One problem with busking is there are individuals who trying to do an act like someone else.

One thing with timing depends on how good you are at keeping attention. My busking last approximately 30 minutes per act. I wear colorful clothes to help attract attention. I use bigger props so the laypersons can see my act farther away. I am loud so others will notice my act at a longer distance. Those are just a few tips I have to offer.

Magicman, I was already a professional magician when I started to be become a busker. I had a big head start from doing magic over 30 years. Do you do shows on a regular basis? What are the favorite effects you have to offer that the crowd will enjoy? The best way to put your act together and see how it runs. You might want to add more effects in your act. If you are not keeping the audience attention by not controlling the laypersons or making contact you might want to take out certain effects. Whatever the time adds up to is YOUR time.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (May 7, 2013 09:12PM)
[quote]
On 2013-05-07 09:47, Dick Oslund wrote:
Ed....I WAS THERE...WERE YOU?

The TRICKS that were done were good tricks. It was the performers who were not good.
[/quote]

If I'd been there, I wouldn't have said; "every trick you described"

By "bad magic" I mean magic done badly.

You have someone doing a trick well, but not taking his setting into account (black stage, black outfit, black bag)
it's not going to work.

You have someone doing a close up trick in an arena, it's not going to work.

So it's not that MAGIC in and of itself is not inherently entertaining, it's that magic [i]done badly[/i] is not inherently entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Yekrats (May 9, 2013 09:10AM)
[quote]I do think that I've wasted my time trying to be helpful.
[/quote]

Nah, don't worry about it. Your helpful advice is helping other lurkers, like me! :vcool:
Message: Posted by: Yekrats (May 9, 2013 09:43AM)
I am beginning to break into the magic world on a pay status, and what you mention above rings true to me. Last year I busked a few times, did a couple of parlor shows, and did walkaround party magic, all for pay. It was a doubly great feeling. However, I'm still working out the kinks.

Important lessons for me: Magic is 90+% non-magic! It is entertainment that is occasionally punctuated by special effects. The stuff in between the magic - including the lead-up and the wind-down - is probably more important than the magic moments itself.

Magic is a lot more 'zingier' if you first establish a connection with the audience. The audience had better like you, or your magic will be about as exciting as a popping balloon. Yes, it's loud and surprising and jolting, but will leave you with an empty feeling if they don't have an emotional connection.

Finally, I'm learning not to reinvent the wheel. The classics are classics for a reason. I have been starting off with an established act, something I strongly suspect will work into my act. Sometimes, I try something, and it doesn't work. Sometimes I try something that does work. When I find a trick that fits, I do it over and over again, until the trick is "mine". The patter evolves, the style evolves. I find my own way of doing it. I find a laugh-line that works, and I try it later. Sometimes it's close to the original, and sometimes it's farther away, but the magic fits into my groove, and not me into it.
Message: Posted by: troppobob (May 10, 2013 12:04AM)
G'day Scott as well as other contributors and also to the lurkers.
This has been an interesting discussion - and I like what Scott has said above - it makes sense to me both in regard to my experience and also lines up with much of what has been written on the subject.
Bob Latta (aka Troppo Bob)
Message: Posted by: Zack (May 31, 2013 06:28AM)
O chestnut-tree, great-rooted blossomer, Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole? O body swayed to music, O brightening glance, How can we know the dancer from the dance?
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (May 31, 2013 07:25AM)
I open with some coin tricks just to get my audience in. Then I perform Chop, Having fun with the people. Getting to now there names along the way. Throw in a hat pitch. Then depends on time I do the cup and balls or some rope effects. I like to kep my show around 10 min long. 15 to 20 is the longest, depending on my audience.
Message: Posted by: MagicMatt629 (May 31, 2013 08:50PM)
Great advice here. Always remember: do what you love and love what you do. If you love the effects you are doing, it will show and your audience will see it. You will be enthusiastic and that enthusiasm will rub off quickly. It doesn't matter if you are doing a simple coin flurry or complex card flourishes, if you are excited about it, your show will prosper. The important thing is get the audience to like you. Once you do, you can entertain for hours. (Although you want to keep is short when busking but the potential for lengthy entertainment is there.) When the audience likes you and if you mess up an effect, it won't matter because you've already established that relationship. Keep it simple. Keep it slow. And have fun.
Message: Posted by: skilldini (Jun 27, 2013 09:38PM)
Busking in a couple weeks. bobby is letting me try. Cincinnati July 14 or so...i suppose rice orange & checkers is to tipsy. zombie silks get caught in the wind. balls have angles, cards can play small so I need 5 to take one - you you you you you. coins are small...but one can end up somewhere remote or bent after signed. ropes may be ok...big fat ropes...in your face prof. nightmare...in and out...i am thinking water cups...but don't want to get my close up pad wet....need a waiter tray...it will be hot, need a bucket with water...for refills...in their hands may be smart...Sugar packet but sticky...11 bill trick, 11 card trick, sponges, center tear, magic square, tip of the thumb, rings, cups, Slydini silks, coin...miser glass, visible like abbott...for attention early...the hook, what is the hook? my voice probably. coin bender...all easily do-able and will be fun to play...will be very interesting to see how much I garner for my efforts...
Message: Posted by: RajeshLGov (Mar 21, 2014 09:39AM)
Enjoyed reading this post. Many good advice from Mr. Pizfor, Mr. Dick Oslund, Mr. Frank S, Mr. Paddy & many others. I wish many budding magicians could read all this. Best Wishes, Raj.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Mar 24, 2014 11:51PM)
Jokes and comedy can be too different things. One can tell a joke poorly and bomb. One can tell the same joke to applause. Tricks and magic can be two different things too. At one time I thought the misers dream was boring, until I saw Chris Capehart. I think a lot of the "discussion" has been semantics and chest thumping.

I also think we can thank Dick for once again insulting a fellow magician who disagrees with him - for no reason. Yay Dick!

Let's be real. If magic is not interesting, then it is a poor tool to entertain. We would all be fools to use it when we could find something more inherently entertaining. Why do Comedy Magic when we could just do Stand-up? OBVIOUSLY we choose magic for a reason, and people watch us for a reason.

Yes, many magicians are NOT entertaining, but then, so are many comics. Both comics and magicians can practice mental m@$terb@tion and care less for the audience.

As for magic lasting just the moment, you are going to have to educate my audiences of that. A good magician can make that moment last not just the routine, not just the show, but a lifetime. This last week I have had two men come up to me and described a routine that they still were in awe about. One was mine, one was some unknown magician. Mine had seen me do some fork bending a month before, the other had seen a card rise years before. The magic lives on! I'm sure that the "magic is a moment" have had similar experiences too.

While we have a lot of talent here, how much of this thread is just magicians trying to impress each other? Ego-centric is a good way of describing most magicians (to include myself). The problem happens when we believe our own BS.

rant over
Message: Posted by: Eric Evans (Mar 25, 2014 04:02AM)
Lots of emotion in here.

I tend to gravitate towards the "magic IS inherently entertaining" crowd.

Not to disagree with anyone mind you, nor to endorse personal opinions of people I've never met.

If magic wasn't intrinsically entertaining, if only mildly distracting, that french drop I witnessed as a kid, no context, no presentation, wouldn't have hooked me as thoroughly as it did.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Mar 25, 2014 10:43AM)
Eric,
Of course it is, to some anyway. But this discussion is like trying to convince someone the sky is blue not green. If they want to think it is green, let them.

Shirtless
Certian individuals LOVE to start arguments, and one in particular likes to bait other magicians. He then insults those who disagree with him. For him it is sport.

Both my father and my wife's father got this way as they aged too, and I think that is the problem. He is a talented magician, and he sometimes offers good advice. The problem is he mixes it in with pure BS and finds it amusing to purposely stir the pot over nothing. He does have some drones who worship everything he says and are oblivious to his current nature. (I personally think he was not like this his whole life). He is no longer working so has little to do but sit in front of his computer belittle others. I personally skip over his posts the way I step over anything left on the sidewalk. It may be nothing, it may be a gem, but I don't want to take the chance of having to scrape it off my shoe.

That is what this thread has degenerated into - nothing but a means to insult other magicians so he can feel good about himself. Sad, but true. . . Have pity on him, but don't fall into his trap.