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Topic: Edge Grip question
Message: Posted by: tedski (Nov 24, 2003 11:40AM)
I have been working through Kainoa's Coins on Edge and a thought came to mind: are any of you edge grip fans using silver dollars as opposed to halfs? I've been experimenting, and there appear to be a few more limitiations.

What edge grip routines are you using dollars in? Do you feel this technique is better left to the half dollar?

Opinions are always appreciated :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: mystre71 (Nov 24, 2003 04:42PM)
I mostly use half dollars but am trying to work with dollars. I spent most of the day working on the "Spin Display" with dollars, when I was supposed to be working :rotf:

Dollars are better if you can handle them and can be seen by larger groups of people.
But no matter what you use, edge grip work takes time and practice. :goodluck:

Message: Posted by: Bill Citino (Nov 24, 2003 09:58PM)

I thought of that too as I was reading through COE one day. Following that I tried it and then realized very quickly why I love half dollars and also was reminded of the size of my hands LOL. If you master edge grip technique with Silver Dollars, more power to you. I'd love to see it one day, let me know how everything is comes out.

Message: Posted by: Kainoa (Nov 25, 2003 08:28AM)
One of the reasons I originally experimented with this stuff is because of my small hands, which can only comfortably Ramsey finger palm half dollars. This position is my standard for knowing if a coin will work for me or not. Anyway, I realized that I could possibly, possibly, possibly, work with dollars [i]if[/i] I worked with edge grip as the "base" palm rather than Ramsey finger palm.

I have yet to make the great leap yet, but have on occasion snaked other people's Morgans just to demonstrate how deadly the edge stuff looks with larger coins (though I know for a fact I can't do all of the changeovers from CoE with Morgans.....yet :)).
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 25, 2003 09:54AM)
At one time I attempted to rework the Ramsay material to use EG and silver dollars. Hiding out a stack of [b]five[/b] coins was just a bit much for my skinny fingers. Likewise the addtional angle restrictions made the project impractical for use in the lunchroom. Since it did not work for me in WORKING conditions, I abandoned the project back in late '77 and went back to half dollars.

PS. My little edge grip bit with two coins felt a bit 'clunky' and the one handed vanish just did not feel quite right... so it goes :)
Message: Posted by: Jason Bay (Nov 25, 2003 03:14PM)
I've been having good luck with using silver dollars for Roth's Edge Grip Hanging Coins (from Expert Coin Magic). However, the extra thickness of the coins make the angles a lot more difficult once I have three of them in edge grip -- I sometimes have to compensate by using my first finger to provide extra cover, but I don't feel that it weakens the effect.

If you can swing it, silver dollars offer a much more powerful effect when using the edge grip, because it just doesn't seem possible that you could hide several of those big coins in your very visibly "empty" hand.
Message: Posted by: KirkG (Nov 25, 2003 07:33PM)
I have only two words, Gary Kurtz

Message: Posted by: CoolMAgic4U (Nov 26, 2003 12:16AM)
I use Morgans for Kaiona's Flippin 3 Fly. I have had no angle problems with them also.

I practice with the Morgans for EVERYTHING that I do. I do have BIG HANDS though , so I guess that helps out! :rotf: :dance:
Message: Posted by: James Harrison (Nov 26, 2003 09:06AM)
I'm in the big hand club with Ed.

If I try and perform with halfs, then people think I'm just hiding them somehow, but with the morgans, it just seems so impossible to hide them in my hand. (Cue evil laugh)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 26, 2003 09:47AM)
You folks with 'big hands' can hide FIVE coins in edge grip?

I'm prepared to be impressed
Message: Posted by: tedski (Nov 26, 2003 10:23AM)
What Kurtz material are you referencing Kirk? I too have large hands, but slender fingers. Five coins? I doubt it, but I'd love to see it.

Message: Posted by: KirkG (Nov 26, 2003 10:49AM)
Not 5 coins. Just dollars in edge grip. I think three at most. Trio.

Message: Posted by: James Harrison (Nov 26, 2003 01:08PM)
Well, whenever you come up to Ontario Jon, (or in Ed's case, New York) I'll be happy to show you.

Though, I don't have any coutines that require me to hide out five morgans. I'm practicing Kainoa's Bejing Trio routine, its 3 morgans, and three chinese coins. (Though, only 2 morgans and 3 chinese are in E.G.)
Message: Posted by: CoolMAgic4U (Nov 27, 2003 12:51AM)
Yes, I am with James..NEVER had to EG 5 Morgans, BUT I can...I will try to make a vid of it... :dance:

OK..here is a QUICK Vid I shot to show 5 Morgan Silver Dollars in EG...


Let me know what you think of it.... :dance:
Message: Posted by: Chris Berry (Nov 27, 2003 12:45PM)

Looks like some unbelievers are going to be impressed.

Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Nov 27, 2003 02:52PM)
As if anyone's really interested, let me give you some insight into how tough it is to be me:

I have had the "pleasure" of working through a lot of Kainoa's material when it (and he) were in their formative stages.

Kainoa does coins left-handed, I have to translate to right-handed.

He works with halves, I translate to dollars.

I finally start to get the hang of it, and then he tells me, "by the way, when I say 'Edge Grip' it's not the same position that you're using, it's closer to Downs palm". Oh.

I work with Morgans because my hands are bigger. When I produce a half dollar, it looks like a quarter. When I produce a dollar, it has about the same impact as Kainoa producing a half. Now Kainoa says the EG work is supposed to enable him to use larger coins. What am I supposed to upgrade to? :mad:

Ed, your video makes the point quite well. The stack is unseen, but the position seems to be closer to Downs palm than EG, at least the way David Roth describes EG. The video does not, however, show the range of angles from which the stack is concealed in this position. I suspect the vertical range is rather narrow. (It is when I do it)

I think the more accurate answer to Jonathan's question is that the EG work referenced, i.e. Kainoa's material from CoE, emphasizes the properties of the EG other than the ability to go into "edge grip display". That position, and the one shown in Ed's video, is rarely taken. With that understood, it is quite realistic to consider handling a stack of five, or even six Morgans in EG. My upper limit appears to be six, after which the exercise becomes more of a balancing act.

To answer the original question, yes, I have been performing out of EG position with dollars for several years. Even more, if you consider the time spent on Downs palm. There are some angle considerations, but these are easily accomomodated.

Negotiations are underway for "Palms of Steel 4 & 5" and these will feature some of the EG-based material, using dollars. Sorry, time to head off to my meeting of "Shameless Pluggers Anonymous".
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Nov 27, 2003 05:13PM)
Will your new dvd feature coins across using edge grip? I want to get away from using a table for a coins across effect.

Message: Posted by: BradleyNott (Nov 27, 2003 07:21PM)
Edge grip? Looks like Downs Palm, how is it different?

I am also familiar with edge palm, but that is completely different.
Message: Posted by: Kainoa (Nov 27, 2003 10:26PM)
On 2003-11-27 20:21, BradleyNott wrote:
Edge grip? Looks like Downs Palm, how is it different?

I am also familiar with edge palm, but that is completely different.

Indeed....there's actually been some discussion about this distinction....I believe in the posts when CoE first came out. If you look at the Buckley book or at Modern Coin Magic regarding downs palm the stack appears to be more in contact with the flesh of the hand than with the second or first (depending on the above texts) fingers. As I explain in CoE the edge grip I'm talking about is merely pushed deeper into the hand from the fingertips so that the base of the finger (part of the hand) becomes involved in the palm, providing more security but also keeping the coins as close to the fingertips as possible (think of it as a triangle of flesh created by the middle finger, lower phalange of the inside of the thumb, and base of the middle finger, while downs palm, for me at least, just uses the thumb and palm). I really think this has a lot to do with the size of people's hands and props, as well as their own comfort zones.

And as Curtis says, these applications really do attempt to either avoid edge grip display (using the freedom the palm grants the other fingers to have an ultra clean ramsey-esque look to the hand) or maximize it (as in my handling of three fly which turns the palm to the audience).

What time is the meeting, Curtis? I hear they're serving hot dogs....
Message: Posted by: CoolMAgic4U (Nov 27, 2003 11:03PM)
Well Thank You Mr Kam.

Like you said the way it is displayed is hardly ever used but I wanted to show that it could be done!

PLUS like I said earlier and James also...I do not know of a routine that you would need to go into EG with 5 coins right off the top of my head. :dance:
Message: Posted by: Kainoa (Nov 28, 2003 08:23AM)
On 2003-11-28 00:03, CoolMAgic4U wrote:
PLUS like I said earlier and James also...I do not know of a routine that you would need to go into EG with 5 coins right off the top of my head. :dance:

You might consider doing Roth's Coins Across (with the gimmick that's often spelled like a naughty word) with the chinese surprise holdout all (or often) in edge grip. That way you do all the steals and productions into and out of eg very cleanly and still have the ability to conceal the other four coins.

You can also avoid this concern by managing the stack in different locations....4 (or 5) in eg as well as another stack in Nowhere palm (I only say this because I'm working out a 4 coin handling of Bejing Trio, since I use 4 coins most of the time anyway).
Message: Posted by: tedski (Nov 28, 2003 09:46AM)
Thank you for your input everyone. I guess part of my point was how practical people find to use this tecnique for dollars in the real world. I can hide the coins as you did in your video Ed, but to get there without revealing the technique live will take me a lot more practice.

BTW -my Barber halves are so much quieter than my Morgans. My Morgans are from 1872, and although not worth much to my dealer ($6 a coin) they have a lot of surface detail. To make this technique quieter I will be using a combination of wet emory cloth and jewelers rouge to sand the surface down. Anyone else do this? I hate to change the appearance, but they are just too noisy. Opinions requested. :spinningcoin:
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Nov 29, 2003 03:41PM)
Sorry, Jim, but I'm supposed to call Kainoa first any time I'm tempted to plug my upcoming video projects. Just one of the 13 steps to recovery, you know.

Strangely, the phone call had no effect, so, to answer your question, yes, there will be EG work on the next PoS discs, because the EG is now all over my material. A coins across using EG is likely, but if what you're looking for is a tableless coins across for three, I reccomend the sequence from "Beijing Coins across" on PoS2. Just leave out the three Chinese coins, and you've got a perfectly good standup/strolling coins across. In fact, I have taught just this sequence to magicians looking for an across for tablehopping work.

If you want the latest additions to that routine, I cover an improved second coin sequence, and the advanced psychology on the third, in my lecture notes from the Magic Castle and LVMI lectures, "COINS:Howtowhattowheretowhyto" which will be available soon (I'm told) at Kainoaland.

Okay, end of plug. Gotta stay one step ahead of the guys with the tranquilizer gun.