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Topic: STFS
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Apr 13, 2013 06:46AM)
A few hours ago strange tasting fish sticks posted what was tantamount to a suicide note here on the Café. Is there anybody here who can get in contact with the guy to make sure he is ok?
Message: Posted by: Bob Gerdes (Apr 13, 2013 07:00AM)
I saw it too. Anyone know him? He clearly needs help.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Apr 13, 2013 08:18AM)
He is friends with ponta the smith, maybe he knows how to contact him.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 09:01AM)
I hope he's ok.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2013 09:30AM)
There was a pretty nasty post on a separate thread, after which a load of people put the boot in. I wish Kevin well, and can only hope he stays clear of this bloody place.
Message: Posted by: Justin W. (Apr 13, 2013 09:40AM)
Unfortunately, it appears Kevin passed away after making the post.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Apr 13, 2013 09:41AM)
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2013 10:06AM)
Almost unbelievable. A tragic waste.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Apr 13, 2013 10:08AM)
If that is true, its horrible and tragic news. How do we know this?
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Apr 13, 2013 10:17AM)
What???

I just posted something as to Fish in another string...I had no idea, and I pray that it is not true. :(

EDIT - Da*n!

https://www.facebook.com/kevin.tejan?fref=ts
Message: Posted by: cablerock (Apr 13, 2013 10:53AM)
Oh my god, that is unbelievable. I'm very sorry to see this, and my thoughts go out to his family.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Apr 13, 2013 11:41AM)
I don't think I'm even going to bother hanging around the Café anymore. It's been worthless for quite sometime. I have no respect any longer for anyone that has moderating powers on TMC. This is beyond sick of them to have deleted the thread that was a cry for help.
Message: Posted by: qureyoon (Apr 13, 2013 11:51AM)
This is really unfortunate!! So sorry to hear this. RIP Kevin.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 13, 2013 11:55AM)
I don't know what to say.

Really, friends, there was nothing you could have done. The Café, either. I've been down that road. When the pain is too great, there is nothing...NOTHING anyone can do. Blaming the Café is wrong. We are all friends here, yes. But this is not a mental hospital.

This is not the place to bring the horrors of mental illness. This an internet forum for magicians. No matter how much you tried, this still would have happened. Some things just cannot be fixed.

Doug
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 12:14PM)
Cop out, Doug. Magicians are human beings. A little enlightenment in that direction could go a long way round these parts, I think.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 12:19PM)
Doug, there's no guarantee this would have happened, but there's also no guarantee anyone could have stopped it.

However, I do not believe anyone is blaming anyone here for what happened, but they are are likely correct in lashing out at someone for deleting the other thread.


Let's not devolve into anything typical of online bull **** right now.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 13, 2013 12:24PM)
Cop out? Never though of it like that...yeah, we're human. Problem is, we're HERE. We can't be THERE to be of much help. I agree with ya. I could use a little enlightening. I've been a bit cynical lately. That's wrong. I need to work on it.

I'm alone most of the time. I know no one around here. I can relate to a lot of what STFS stated about this whole thing. Thing is, I LIKE being alone. That's the difference. STFS needed people to be around. To feel he had a purpose. I know the feeling. As I said, been there, done that. Got the T-shirt.

Forgive me, Laurie, if I sound heartless. Didn't mean to come off like that. I'm as confused as the rest of you...

Doug
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 12:33PM)
You don't sound heartless, Doug. I just think people need to pay attention. We can't afford to dismiss so easily, even if, technically, the powers that be are able to do so. The Magic Café can be significant, much as some would like to scoff at the notion.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 13, 2013 12:42PM)
Oh...I see. I missed a couple things here. A deleted post. OK, yeah. I'm with ya. Not good when the Café does that. Could have been the tipping point, who knows? He did exactly what he said he'd do, too. Told people. Cripes. I'm sick about this.

I need a break. I really do...
Message: Posted by: Lawrens Godon (Apr 13, 2013 12:48PM)
So sad to hear that... just after reading the now deleted post, I rushed on FB to see and try to contact some Kevin's family member.. I understand some of his friends reacted and tried to contact him... but too late.

I also believe some member on this forum can be very ashamed now.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Apr 13, 2013 12:51PM)
This is so very sad.

Not a good time to point fingers, though. Kevin did what he did and nobody knows why for sure.


Peace on you, Kevin.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Apr 13, 2013 01:30PM)
THIS IS AWAFULL ........WOW
THISN IS ALL I CAN SAY AT THE MOMENT
SORRY FOR THE CAPS
VINNY
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 01:39PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 13:48, Lawrens Godon wrote:
So sad to hear that... just after reading the now deleted post, I rushed on FB to see and try to contact some Kevin's family member.. I understand some of his friends reacted and tried to contact him... but too late.

I also believe some member on this forum can be very ashamed now.
[/quote]

I am sure it was not the fault of 1 post ( or any posts for that matter ) he has had problems for years, probably most of his life. It saddens me that he took his own life but if he is the kind of person who would go through with that, it was only a matter of time before it would have happened anyway and for " whatever" reason. I talked to him through PM a few times, gave him my home phone and just recently my cell phone. I was very open with him about the depression problems I am going through with cancer and although he asked for my number, he never reached out and I told him he could call 24/7 as I am home alone most days and have a really messed up sleep schedule so I am up late most nights. He also said something in his "goodby post" about another forum attacking him. I have no idea which forum that would be as I am only on this one or what his forum name was ( although his posts would probably give that away).

So the blame, I am sorry to say, is all on him. Suicide is often called a selfish and cowardly act, I don't believe either. I think it is a last and final resort for someone with a lot of problems to end their perceived suffering. People do it and leave the ones they leave behind to pick up the pieces and try to figure out what they could have done differently to prevent it - when the fact is they couldn't . They only could have prolonged it.i really don't think it was 1 person pushing him over the edge when there were at least 10 people holding him back.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2013 01:44PM)
What is "perceived suffering"?
Message: Posted by: Hare (Apr 13, 2013 01:48PM)
Hiding Kevin's suicide note and saying things like "he would have done this no matter what we said to him", strikes me as an uncaring and selfish attitude.

We should at the very least all try and learn from what happened. If we pretend it was inevitable, that we had no influence on Kevin's life, make believe it never happened, we ought to acquire a one way ticket to hell.

The board moderators ought to stand up and post a response, along with Kevin's note...once they determine for certain that this actually did occur.

People see the Magic Café as a place to escape the real world, I suppose, and don't want the responsibilities of life to intrude here, but they have. If nothing else, we ought to reflect on how what we say here to others sometimes results in a meaningful impact on other's lives.

This is a place of Dreams for younger folk interested in magic. It's a spot where actual working magician's gather. Each of us, amateur and pro, need to realize that our words matter, that we make differences in peoples lives for good or ill. Nothing like this existed when I was a young man, and I can only imagine how it might have felt to me to have a place like this to visit that dealt with an art form I loved.

It might appropriate to start a section of the Magic Café dedicated to Kevin, which supported real goals towards professional status for youngsters interested in being magicians that focused on positive feedback and steered clear of how awful a profession it is to succeed in. Maybe include a place where donations could be made to help young magicians who had little get a start.

The truth is, that with support and nurturing, people can succeed at their dreams. The truth is, that discouragement and slapping people in the face with what we might see as "reality" is almost never a productive thing. Human beings can surmount mountainous obstacles with tenacity and a love for what they are doing.

We ought to acknowledge this, and this is the perfect time to make such an effort. I would be happy to donate to such a cause via Paypal, in memory of Kevin. I am very sorry I did not talk to him more. I feel guilt, and I admit it.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 01:49PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 13:48, Lawrens Godon wrote:
So sad to hear that... just after reading the now deleted post, I rushed on FB to see and try to contact some Kevin's family member.. I understand some of his friends reacted and tried to contact him... but too late.

I also believe some member on this forum can be very ashamed now.
[/quote]

I'd love to know why the original post/thread was deleted.
Message: Posted by: Lawrens Godon (Apr 13, 2013 01:51PM)
Poof-Daddy, I'm not saying that someone should be held responsible for "pushing him over the edge".
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 02:04PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 14:51, Lawrens Godon wrote:
Poof-Daddy, I'm not saying that someone should be held responsible for "pushing him over the edge".
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.
[/quote]

I know you weren't saying that (but I used you post because some people are thinking that) I read his deleted post also, even the 1 reply at the time that said "this would be a good time to start a hanging coins thread" or something very close to that. I simply ignored it and figured if he didn't call me, I would PM him today when he felt better. His post said he tried and the support broke but he was gonna try again and I didn't believe he would, I figured he was trying to make enough noise that someone would hear him and send him to the hospital for treatment ( a cry for help rather than an actual attempt )

Nothing meant towards you Lawrens.
Message: Posted by: jazzy snazzy (Apr 13, 2013 03:06PM)
Very sad to hear this.
Message: Posted by: Dr_J_Ayala (Apr 13, 2013 04:05PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 14:51, Lawrens Godon wrote:
All I say is I know what I've read in response to his last (deleted) post, and this makes me sick.
[/quote]

I concur. There are certain things that could have been attempted that were not, and I will leave it at that.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Apr 13, 2013 06:00PM)
I have had several private conversations with Kevin, and sent him a set out my dvds along with a very personal note about the hurt that can be given to those you love by this type of act. As a father of a boy his age, this hits me very personally. Kevin told me how grateful he was, and that he showed my note to his mom. The reason I mention this is because he was getting help at home and had his own group of people who cared for him as best they can. No one here did anything wrong or caused Kevin to do this. Kevin had his demons and sadness, and this was not his first attempt. It is easy to think about what else we as a group could have done, but the truth is that people by his side were trying as best as they could. And ultimately they couldn't stop this. I send my deepest sympathies out to his loving family, RIP Kevin, your love of magic showed through all of your posts. You will be missed.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 13, 2013 06:34PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
[/quote]

Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Apr 13, 2013 06:49PM)
Yes, and I am still in shock as to all this. :(

And that the forum monitors deleted his post is something they will scramble not to engage here. Morally, they drop the ball and when push came to shove, they didn't live by their own credo here..."Magicians Helping Magicians." They sure didn't help Fish, they didn't even try, they just deleted his post as, I guess - Inappropriate. How callous.

How could someone have read something like that and just completely disconnect from humanity...Not answer such a final call for help??? It's sorta like watching a small child run out into the middle of a busy street and not go after him because he's not your child. Disgusting!
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2013 06:49PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
[/quote]

Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
[/quote]

He also posted on Facebook. A friend swiftly called the emergency services, who attempted to save his life.

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 13, 2013 07:06PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:49, tomsk192 wrote:

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."
[/quote]

I think anyone reading his posts for some time could tell kevin was fragile, had self esteem issues.

This is a sad time for his family.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2013 07:13PM)
Indeed it is.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 07:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
[/quote]

Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
[/quote]

He posted a post on this forum titled goodby I love you all - late last night, early this morning, I can't remember, I went to bed early and woke to go to the rest room and popped on my iPad for a sec. He said he tried to hang himself but the support broke but he was going to do it again.

There was one response that said looks like a good time to start a thread on hanging coins then. Or something to that effect. I didn't reply to it because I a) didn't think he was really going through with it. And b) I know you must choose your words and how you put them carefully with him and I generally do.

Anyway, that was what I saw of the deleted post. But my question is... Did the mods do nothing? How do we know this? Just because they deleted it (and in my opinion it should have been) doesn't mean behind the screens they did nothing. And if they didn't is it really their responsibility ? Is Facebook also to blame here along with the mods? I am sure the people at Facebook do absolutely NOTHING about the hundreds of suicidal goodby's posted every day. Someone locally to him did call the police and nothing could be done. The rescue people couldn't revive him according to his mother on his Facebook page.

Anyway, I hope he found a peaceful place and his parents and loved ones recover knowing that it wasn't their fault.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 13, 2013 07:50PM)
The news is tragic. Hearing that someone made light of it, is hard to believe. The thread was deleted by someone with authority, did they do anything to help? If they didn't have a contact, they should have sent out a PM notice to all members, in hopes someone knew Kevin or someone in his family.. They send it for ads for decks of cards, so it could easily have been sent out.

I think I read somewhere on the Café that bad things happen when good people do nothing. Anyone know who said that on the Café?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 08:05PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:00, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
I have had several private conversations with Kevin, and sent him a set out my dvds along with a very personal note about the hurt that can be given to those you love by this type of act. As a father of a boy his age, this hits me very personally. Kevin told me how grateful he was, and that he showed my note to his mom. The reason I mention this is because he was getting help at home and had his own group of people who cared for him as best they can. No one here did anything wrong or caused Kevin to do this. Kevin had his demons and sadness, and this was not his first attempt. It is easy to think about what else we as a group could have done, but the truth is that people by his side were trying as best as they could. And ultimately they couldn't stop this. I send my deepest sympathies out to his loving family, RIP Kevin, your love of magic showed through all of your posts. You will be missed.
[/quote]

Very true, none of use, as individuals, caused anything, or should, could have, would have.

[quote]
On 2013-04-13 20:35, Poof-Daddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
[/quote]

Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
[/quote]

He posted a post on this forum titled goodby I love you all - late last night, early this morning, I can't remember, I went to bed early and woke to go to the rest room and popped on my iPad for a sec. He said he tried to hang himself but the support broke but he was going to do it again.

There was one response that said looks like a good time to start a thread on hanging coins then. Or something to that effect. I didn't reply to it because I a) didn't think he was really going through with it. And b) I know you must choose your words and how you put them carefully with him and I generally do.

Anyway, that was what I saw of the deleted post. But my question is... Did the mods do nothing? How do we know this? Just because they deleted it (and in my opinion it should have been) doesn't mean behind the screens they did nothing. And if they didn't is it really their responsibility ? Is Facebook also to blame here along with the mods? I am sure the people at Facebook do absolutely NOTHING about the hundreds of suicidal goodby's posted every day. Someone locally to him did call the police and nothing could be done. The rescue people couldn't revive him according to his mother on his Facebook page.

Anyway, I hope he found a peaceful place and his parents and loved ones recover knowing that it wasn't their fault.
[/quote]

It's curious that he would have come back on here to post after a failed attempt, isn't it?
Many suicides are, tragically, accidents.

While it is true we may be jumping to conclusions regarding the staff here doing nothing. We don't know what they did, or didn't do off line.
I don't know if the mods should have deleted it. I don't see how that would help anything.
Message: Posted by: cablerock (Apr 13, 2013 08:27PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:49, tomsk192 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 19:34, Zombie Magic wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 10:41, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Ive heard that it is too late. Nice work, Caf�, deleting that thread. It was his cry for help. Well done. You ***s.
[/quote]

Kevin posted a note on the Café about what he was going to do? I wonder if anything could have been to get him help?

Such sad news about Kevin.
[/quote]

He also posted on Facebook. A friend swiftly called the emergency services, who attempted to save his life.

Incidentally, leading up to this event, Kevin was told on this forum to "stop whining", "stop crying" and to "grow up."
[/quote]

I'm just going to say it. I am having a problem with this sort of blame casting that has been going on towards Octopus Sun. I think that it is really messed up. I know nobody has mentioned his name about it, but I've seen several posts eluding to this, and it really upsets me.

I agree that he can be a bit harsh with his words, but one can not expect every person to edit themselves to account for other person's feelings or beliefs. He didn't do anything wrong, and he certainly is not to blame for what happened. Not even a bit. As most of you have probably seen, Octopus Sun only said what everybody else was too polite and nice to say, which several people mentioned after his post. Though it was hard to hear, it was indeed constructive criticism, which any performer in the world is going to hear a million times worse if they actually get into the entertainment business.

One of the lessons I have learned in life is that there will be people like Octopus Sun who straight up tell it like they see it, regardless of the fact that they are may be insensitive to other peoples feelings. I feel that people like O.S. are a blessing, and you can more in minutes from people like him than you could in months with other people. Also, on this note, keep in mind you don't have to agree with the things that anybody says, and what you learn may not necessarily reflect their positions. "What Peter says about Paul tells more about Peter than Paul".

I hope I didn't offend anybody, but I just had to speak my mind about this one.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 08:36PM)
I'm just speaking to the fact that it seems like everyone is looking for someone to blame, be it the mods, people who gave him harsh comments... So e even blame themselves. You don't think I feel bad that I read the effin post and didn't even send him a pm to call me. He has my home and cell number along with the explicit ok to call 24/7 and I will answer. I don't remember who posted the crass response and I don't want to know because if Kevin didn't go the route he did and got some help and came back on the board he may even have had a chuckle about it. Was it an inappropriate time to make a joke? Yes. But I don't feel it was done to push him over the edge ( he has been teetering on it for some time to have gone through with this) and certainly the poster in question is not to blame the name does not come to mind so he is someone who I didn't readily recognize from the forum. He may not really have know Kevin and his issues. Just saw a post titled I Love You All Goodby and may have thought it was a joke. I read it and knew this much - he said he tried and the support broke and said he would do it again.

Knowing that many if not most suicide attempts are really cries for help my thought to be honest was, if this is true he is making enough noise for someone to hear by breaking the first support. Many years ago, I did the same thing ( different methodology but where someone would I icky get to me) and it was just that - a cry for help, and I got it. It cost me a couple years of my life that I should have been enjoying life, I was just a bit younger than Kevin at the time. But I got therapy and meds and went on with a pretty decent life. My recent bout with cancer has unlocked a lot of my old demons that were lying in wait for the right moment to resurface and I battle with depression daily now. I really understood him and put myself out to him through PM and offering my phone numbers ( I don't do that for just anyone).

We are all going to grieve in our own ways, some will look to blame, some will wonder if they could have done more some may break down into tears and some will feel a bit of a loss and go on. There are probably even some who could care less. Sad but true. I guess I would ask, let's not berate the mods unless we absolutely know they did something wrong instead of just assuming that they did nothing. They may have a protocol for this type of thing or this may cause them to create one. I apologize to anyone who disagrees, but it should have been pulled. It's not something everyone needed to read. If nothing else, the reply should have been removed and dealt with and the topic locked and moved. I think the mods did their jobs.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 08:43PM)
Cablerock, I agree, I thought people were all up in arms about Octopus Sun too but after re-reading I realized many were talking about the nameless person who posted the hanging coins reply. Not everyone is directing their posts toward Octopus Sun. Some are a tally toward the other and I agree with your views on octopus suns posts.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 08:44PM)
Is that any different than the cyber bullying we hear about in many high school suicides?
I'm not trying to say it is, or isn't. I'm just wondering.
Obviously there is some truly horrible bullying going on in those cases, and, sadly, many "bullies" are oblivious/don't think what they are doing is "bullying."
But, is what we saw here something that also happens in those cases, and is lumped in with bullying?
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 08:46PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 21:43, Poof-Daddy wrote:
Cablerock, I agree, I thought people were all up in arms about Octopus Sun too but after re-reading I realized many were talking about the nameless person who posted the hanging coins reply. Not everyone is directing their posts toward Octopus Sun. Some are a tally toward the other and I agree with your views on octopus suns posts.
[/quote]

This is true too.
I completely missed the original thread. What I am reading here, as to what was posted in that thread, is rather terrible.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 08:46PM)
Maybe you ought to look at Kevin's responses and see how he felt about it and the suicide jokes he referred to, as well.
Message: Posted by: cablerock (Apr 13, 2013 08:51PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 21:46, magicalaurie wrote:
Maybe you ought to look at Kevin's responses and see how he felt about it and the suicide jokes he referred to, as well.
[/quote]

And those are not okay, at all. I don't think there is any dispute there.

To be clear, I didn't see the deleted thread, so I have no idea who posted what in the responses. That's not what I was referring to and if that's what everybody here is talking about, I'm sorry for the mistake.
EDIT: Just made sure and the post I quoted was indeed referring to O.S.
Message: Posted by: bowers (Apr 13, 2013 09:06PM)
I'm just going to say it. I am having a problem with this sort of blame casting that has been going on towards Octopus Sun. I think that it is really messed up. I know nobody has mentioned his name about it, but I've seen several posts eluding to this, and it really upsets me.

I agree that he can be a bit harsh with his words, but one can not expect every person to edit themselves to account for other person's feelings or beliefs. He didn't do anything wrong, and he certainly is not to blame for what happened. Not even a bit. As most of you have probably seen, Octopus Sun only said what everybody else was too polite and nice to say, which several people mentioned after his post. Though it was hard to hear, it was indeed constructive criticism, which any performer in the world is going to hear a million times worse if they actually get into the entertainment business.

One of the lessons I have learned in life is that there will be people like Octopus Sun who straight up tell it like they see it, regardless of the fact that they are may be insensitive to other peoples feelings. I feel that people like O.S. are a blessing, and you can more in minutes from people like him than you could in months with other people. Also, on this note, keep in mind you don't have to agree with the things that anybody says, and what you learn may not necessarily reflect their positions. "What Peter says about Paul tells more about Peter than Paul".

I hope I didn't offend anybody, but I just had to speak my mind about this one.
[/quote]
I agree with you whole heartly cablerock
Todd
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 09:06PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 21:46, magicalaurie wrote:
Maybe you ought to look at Kevin's responses and see how he felt about it and the suicide jokes he referred to, as well.
[/quote]

If you mean to the suicide post, I'm sorry, there was only 1 response when I read it and it was gone before I saw it again and found out what happened, as for the guy from wherever he was going to lecture making the "jokes " telling him to kill himself - everyone thought that was not cool.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 09:07PM)
I didn't see the "suicide post".
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 09:11PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 22:07, magicalaurie wrote:
I didn't see the "suicide post".
[/quote]

I guess I was one of the few unfortunate people who did, and will probably NEVER forget it after all this.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 09:27PM)
[quote]
only said what everybody else was too polite and nice to say, which several people mentioned after his post. Though it was hard to hear, it was indeed constructive criticism, which any performer in the world is going to hear a million times worse if they actually get into the entertainment business.
[/quote]

Everybody, huh? As if all who are polite and nice are liars, is that it? And you wonder why Kevin thought EVERYBODY agreed? That was DESTRUCTIVE criticism, obviously. Humiliating a guy who didn't need humiliating, in my opinion. See Kevin's response. Far more balanced in tone. I'll tell you who's naive and needs to grow up here: everyone who thinks words can do no harm, and have done none here, that's who.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 09:32PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 22:27, magicalaurie wrote:
[quote]
only said what everybody else was too polite and nice to say, which several people mentioned after his post. Though it was hard to hear, it was indeed constructive criticism, which any performer in the world is going to hear a million times worse if they actually get into the entertainment business.
[/quote]

Everybody, huh? As if all who are polite and nice are liars, is that it? And you wonder why Kevin thought EVERYBODY agreed? That was DESTRUCTIVE criticism, obviously. Humiliating a guy who didn't need humiliating, in my opinion. See Kevin's response. Far more balanced in tone. I'll tell you who's naive and needs to grow up here: everyone who thinks words can do no harm, and have done none here, that's who.
[/quote]

I just watched the video he posted. What was there criticism about? It looked like a potentially very useful idea.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 09:37PM)
Page 2, gdw.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=505419&forum=3&56&start=30

I didn't post when I read it the other day, and I'm not sure why, because I did consider it and now feel I should have. Kevin sounded fairly well to me, maybe, and I've got my own stuff going on, as we all do. I don't know, maybe I didn't want to give the impression he needed defending as from what I hear, guys resent being defended- somehow think it makes them appear incompetent, which I understand but at the same time think is a load of bullsh!t. I'm not sure- maybe Kevin didn't want me to say anything, somehow. As Doug said, confusion all around. One thing I know, Kevin did come here for help and we need to consider what happened.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 09:59PM)
I've been watching his videos on YouTube. I've been crying.

Such a tragic loss no matter what, but he was doing some beautiful coin work, and too think that he was being harshly criticized over these videos.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Apr 13, 2013 10:21PM)
Personally I don't think it's anyone's place her to offer suck tough love advice as "get your **** together and stop whining" on a public forum. Those are words for a private message or phone conversation, with all due respect to all. Words on a page can be interpreted in many different ways.

I do not believe, however, that this or any other one thing caused what happened. So much goes on in the mind of someone in such a dark and fragile state that we will probably never know what really happened.

Let's all remain friends.
Peace to all

MIke
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 10:26PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:21, fonda57 wrote:
Personally I don't think it's anyone's place her to offer suck tough love advice as "get your **** together and stop whining" on a public forum. Those are words for a private message or phone conversation, with all due respect to all. Words on a page can be interpreted in many different ways.

I do not believe, however, that this or any other one thing caused what happened. So much goes on in the mind of someone in such a dark and fragile state that we will probably never know what really happened.

Let's all remain friends.
Peace to all

MIke
[/quote]

+1
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 10:27PM)
Perhaps we should not be openly discussing his possible issues with depression on a public forum, out of respect for him and his family?
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 10:31PM)
But we should be discussing his unconfirmed suicide? You guys really do confuse me, sometimes.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 10:36PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:31, magicalaurie wrote:
But we should be discussing his unconfirmed suicide? You guys really do confuse me, sometimes.
[/quote]

I wasn't saying that either. Though I thought it had been confirmed, you may have a point, however, this is still a community, and as a community, people will share what they are experiencing.

While no one here is going through what his family are, people will have emotions, and it is good as a community, and as individuals, that we don't avoid discussing what we are processing as well.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 10:37PM)
I don't see how discussing depression would be disrespectful to Kevin, in the slightest. Awareness is what's needed.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 10:45PM)
I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't deleted this thread since they were so quick to delete the other. I can only assume the other was deleted following protocol but they are letting this one go for now so people can have a chance to grieve ( in the Internet way) . And as far as discussing it after the fact, Kevin was pretty open about some of his problems in past posts so nothing is really being revealed here that wasn't already out there (so to speak) and yes, awareness is needed. We all live in this sit at home on the computer world and communicate through forums, Facebook and Twitter and sometimes forget how bad the world around us can be.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 13, 2013 10:47PM)
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 10:52PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:45, Poof-Daddy wrote:
I'm kind of surprised the mods haven't deleted this thread since they were so quick to delete the other. I can only assume the other was deleted following protocol but they are letting this one go for now so people can have a chance to grieve ( in the Internet way) . And as far as discussing it after the fact, Kevin was pretty open about some of his problems in past posts so nothing is really being revealed here that wasn't already out there (so to speak) and yes, awareness is needed. We all live in this sit at home on the computer world and communicate through forums, Facebook and Twitter and sometimes forget how bad the world around us can be.
[/quote]

That's true. Very true.

I wasn't thinking of the fact that he had been so open about it. I guess I was viewing it from the vantage that he hadn't been that open (or perhaps he felt like he was confiding in friends,) and it may be bringing un-wanted attention to his family, or rather that his parents might not want people so publicly discussing their son's possible issues.

But yes, very much a valid point regarding awareness, but grieving as well.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 10:55PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.
[/quote]

“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, ‘Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.’ To this day, especially in times of ‘disaster,’ I remember my mother’s words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers - so many caring people in this world.” — Mister Rogers
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Apr 13, 2013 11:00PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.
[/quote]

True, it does go both ways - Good and Bad

And gdw, I grew up in Latrobe Pa where Mr Rogers is from and met him a couple times. The man was the exact same in person as he was on his show.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 13, 2013 11:11PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 00:00, Poof-Daddy wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-13 23:47, magicalaurie wrote:
I think people mostly forget how good the world can be.
[/quote]

True, it does go both ways - Good and Bad

And gdw, I grew up in Latrobe Pa where Mr Rogers is from and met him a couple times. The man was the exact same in person as he was on his show.
[/quote]

Yes, from what I've heard, he was an incredibly earnest man.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 14, 2013 12:48AM)
For the record, I don't blame Octopus Sun for Kevin's actions, how could I? No one here's qualified for such a task and I certainly don't want it. I was, however, angry about the tone he took with him. I'm sorry I didn't speak up sooner, because I certainly didn't agree and I think I should have let Kevin know it. His work with the muscle pass was very interesting and I think that could have and should have been emphasized in the thread.
Message: Posted by: taiga (Apr 14, 2013 01:50AM)
I'm shocked!!
Stop asking!
I am the a**h**e who did the joke about "time to learn Hanging Coins".
I couldn't imagine that someone could spread that kind of personal problems on a site like Magic Café.
I really thought it was a bad joke made by someone craving for attention. I was upset by that, being myself involved once bye a member of my family who committed suicide when I was a teen. I have been the first to reply at his post and I am ready to assume my mistake. I'm ready to leave this community for ever if you desire so!
I just cannot tell you how sorry I am to have been part of that. Being the first, sometime is hard to face.

To finish, my thoughts are with all those who knew this man and his family!
Message: Posted by: takeachance (Apr 14, 2013 02:04AM)
Social media like this are not the place to discuss these issues for seriously ill persons. Your post did not cause the end result. Time for this forum to be deleted also in respect to the boys family. The Mods did the right thing, its a situation of ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 14, 2013 05:19AM)
Certainly no specific blame should be attached to individuals on this forum. However, it would be reassuring to think that some may have learned something, and be big enough to recognise that so-called 'tough love' is inappropriate, at best, for severely depressed individuals.

The contrition seems to be coming mainly from the more gentle members of this forum.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Apr 14, 2013 06:15AM)
I posted in the other string as to this "tough love vs. other love" stuff and I pretty much stand by that as to different people's serious approaches to responding to Fish. At that very time I was unaware of what had happened.

I really agree with cablerock and Fonda here as to any blame game going on here. All the woulda-coulda-shouldas are just that, after thoughts of what roads perhaps would've been a better way. In that, if you think think you coulda done something more than you did, then blame yourself as you may place blame toward others. Though, I don't think you're to blame either in all of this but to each his own.

I agree that pretty much most here were not prepared to deal with this kind of thing, a more resident professional care was always needed. Each person gave from who they are. Now, of course, everyone is not happy with other people's way as to things, just like everyone doesn't agree as to the great gun debate in the U.S., even after the horrific tragedy of those little kids in Newtown. :/

It's a great conundrum here because while Fish did have outside help for his issues, they were missing an important element - Magic. Magic drew Fish here and held him steady as it could and he let it. Only we were ill-prepared on this end as well to to confront the darker chasms he was traveling. We seemed to be a bit of the light up ahead he kept moving towards in interest...Just maybe we could magically present a door out of his dark world. I don't know, I'm just sayin'. To me, we certainly tried.

We are people and we think and do things differently as to our caring and instruction regarding life for ourselves and as to others. And look, boys have ****ing matches, that's what we do, been doing since the beginning of time and it has helped build this world...and destroy it some, I suppose. That some don't agree with these "ways" is their prerogative but it is an old prerogative that traditionally has changed little if much of anything. And I would think that from this side of the greatest aisle there is, we have some of the same sorta questions about the thinking and approach from the other side as to some of the things they do and how they think, and they care about as much as we do. It don't make us wrong or them, it just shows what seems to be an innate difference in us that usually then demands deeper thinking toward needed compromise of the two sides. Often times, one side can't do it without the other side resenting the action taken. Typically blame enters, it's what we do...All of us in one way or another through our reflexive opinions begin to judge the situation. Semantically, we are doing that pretty much now.

Y'know, at one time we used to blame the person committing such an act, how crazy was that? With time, as we often do, we came to understand better as to the darkness some of us travel without much hope. I am happy to say that we have changed our approach and thinking somewhat for the better, but sh*t still happens and we have a lot more to learn it seems. Anyway, blame who you will, a little or a lot, until we tire of blaming and blame no more, or something like that.

In the meantime, my prayers are with Kevin's family, and for mercy on his soul toward a greater peace for him now and forever.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 14, 2013 06:47AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 02:50, taiga wrote:
I'm shocked!!
Stop asking!
I am the a**h**e who did the joke about "time to learn Hanging Coins".
I couldn't imagine that someone could spread that kind of personal problems on a site like Magic Café.
I really thought it was a bad joke made by someone craving for attention. I was upset by that, being myself involved once bye a member of my family who committed suicide when I was a teen. I have been the first to reply at his post and I am ready to assume my mistake. I'm ready to leave this community for ever if you desire so!
I just cannot tell you how sorry I am to have been part of that. Being the first, sometime is hard to face.

To finish, my thoughts are with all those who knew this man and his family!
[/quote]

As mentioned, I don't think anyone here can really be blamed for anything.
It is big of you to step up.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 14, 2013 06:57AM)
http://metro.co.uk/2008/11/21/bodybuilder-commits-suicide-live-on-web-while-viewers-abuse-him-170682/

This thread should not be erased IMHO

Not hiding or erasing the fact mental health issues are common may one day help fight the stigma around them - I mean this thread here.

This is tragic - and it's a growing phenomena thanks to the ubiquity of social media

Being a person who treats people for such conditions, it is unlikely at the point a person is actively posting about actively killing themselves that much can be done unless you know who the person is this location etc and even then interventions are difficult

Most people who do this are suffering from a preexisting condition.... That often gets overlooked or not dealt with for many reasons

As for erasing the thread with the suicide note.... I don't think there is a clear answer on what is right in these situations - there is the phenomena of copycats which is why newspapers etc have a code not to report details if subway suicides etc.... As it can accidentally encourage those on the edge to do a similar act. Really. There are a lot of these occurring now.

In the end it is tragic and I think a thread conducted in allowing people to talk about this to help our magic community is a good thing....

Looking for reasons that are easy to understand is normal - that is how our magic perf works too. Truth is usually more complex ie biological conditions and genetics combined with psychological factors arising from coping with them then mixed with social interactions... In a 21 century culture of techno dehumanisation.... There the truth lies usually.

My condolences to the family and those who knew him.

I have no idea who kevin is and wasn't part of any discussions but I wanted to say let this event try to help people learn from for the future - this wont be the last time of colleagues might be suffering too.
Message: Posted by: Fire Starter (Apr 14, 2013 07:59AM)
Oh dear very tragic news,my heart goes out to his family and friends RIP Kevin.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 14, 2013 08:42AM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 07:57, Dr Spektor wrote:
http://metro.co.uk/2008/11/21/bodybuilder-commits-suicide-live-on-web-while-viewers-abuse-him-170682/

This thread should not be erased IMHO

Not hiding or erasing the fact mental health issues are common may one day help fight the stigma around them - I mean this thread here.

This is tragic - and it's a growing phenomena thanks to the ubiquity of social media

Being a person who treats people for such conditions, it is unlikely at the point a person is actively posting about actively killing themselves that much can be done unless you know who the person is this location etc and even then interventions are difficult

Most people who do this are suffering from a preexisting condition.... That often gets overlooked or not dealt with for many reasons

As for erasing the thread with the suicide note.... I don't think there is a clear answer on what is right in these situations - there is the phenomena of copycats which is why newspapers etc have a code not to report details if subway suicides etc.... As it can accidentally encourage those on the edge to do a similar act. Really. There are a lot of these occurring now.

In the end it is tragic and I think a thread conducted in allowing people to talk about this to help our magic community is a good thing....

Looking for reasons that are easy to understand is normal - that is how our magic perf works too. Truth is usually more complex ie biological conditions and genetics combined with psychological factors arising from coping with them then mixed with social interactions... In a 21 century culture of techno dehumanisation.... There the truth lies usually.

My condolences to the family and those who knew him.

I have no idea who kevin is and wasn't part of any discussions but I wanted to say let this event try to help people learn from for the future - this wont be the last time of colleagues might be suffering too.
[/quote]

Yes, and, assuming they are aware of it, I'm going to thank the Café staff for allowing this thread to continue.
Plenty of emotionally fueled posts over the past 2 days, mine included.
Message: Posted by: itlust (Apr 14, 2013 08:53AM)
This is very sad news ...
Message: Posted by: Octopus Sun (Apr 14, 2013 09:13AM)
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 14, 2013 11:01AM)
Octopus Sun, you are not to blame. I understand exactly what you said to him. There is NO right or wrong thing here. We all had our own ways of dealing with him, and OS, so did you. Being angry [i]at each other[/i] is not the answer.

Agree or disagree, we are all affected. I'm angry right now at Kevin. Furious! Am I right to be angry? I don't know. I just am. To me, suicide is a cowardly, selfish act. I know. I have attempted it twice in my life. The difference? I turned to God. Kevin was not interested in that. We briefly talked about it.

I didn't sleep well last night. I did not know Kevin that well. This bothers me more than it should. I guess it hits close to home. My mother committed suicide right in front of me at 13. That's enough right there for one lifetime...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 14, 2013 11:17AM)
This morning at services, we offered prayers for Kevin, his family and also for the Magic Café members and staff.

I think many of us have had a family member/close friend that did what Kevin did. It's tragic, sad and filled with emotions we probably don't have the proper word(s) to describe. The deep pain Kevin was in, is gone now. He's somewhere else, doing things we couldn't comprehend. Let's celebrate his life and the people he touched.

Hey, babies were born today!

And when I die, and when I'm gone
There'll be one child born
In this world to carry on, to carry on
Message: Posted by: bowers (Apr 14, 2013 11:19AM)
Right Kevin did this to himself.He has been on a
self-destruct path for a long time going.He tryed his
best to get people to feel sorry for him constantly
wanting pity from whoever he could get it from.I really
hate a life was taken But Kevin has been against Kevin
his whole life.And it finally consumed him.there has been
a lot of new people coming in and pointing fingers at whose
to blame on this thread.I sure didn't hear from them when
all this posting from Kevin was going own.I called these people
hindsight ones always seemingly to know what should have been done
after the fact.
Todd
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Apr 14, 2013 12:07PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else
[/quote]

You did nothing wrong OS, not sure how it all came down that way, but then again. Information is power, and clearly you did a lot more than most did to help Fish in your own way, which is the only way you could've done it, just like any of the rest of us doing it our way, whichever way that is. Clearly you cared about Kevin, enough to reach as far as you did. I'm really proud of your efforts to help in his darkest time of need. Good show, my friend.
Message: Posted by: vampiro (Apr 14, 2013 12:27PM)
This is very, very sad. But this is not a time to blame people. You see, a lot of us had no idea that Kevin had serious mental problems.
An internet discussion is not the place for someone with mental problems, much less encouraging someone like this to compete. this is just asking for rejection and more pain.

Have any of you had to deal with serious mental disease close up? My sister had bulimia--seriously--like Kevin (from one of his posts online). Kevin had it seriously. this kind of thing is, when it is severe, is like a living suicide attempt, which is why people with this problem are in and out of mental clinics/hospitals. My family was fortunate--my sister got well over decades and is now a psychiatrist. But it would have been horrible if one of her suicide attempts would have succeeded.

On the surface, it may seem that people's posts sent Kevin over the edge, but he was already suicidal. Bulimia and repetitive suicide attempts are like a living death. These people (like my family member)were looking for any reason to call it quits. you have to take this into account, and don't blame people--that is really irresponsible. The truth is, if you have known a suicidal person with serious mental disease, it is a mystery why they keep trying suicide. Often these events have very little to do with the events around them. It is often not related to what is going on in the real world. So don't be a jerk and blame someone--this was much more serious than saying something someone didn't like. The truth is, someone with serious mental issues should not be on an internet chat site of any type--they need family and professional help.

So, here's to you, Kevin, you were brilliant, caring, and mixed up. I wish I could have been a friend.
I trust that God is taking care of you, in a better place. Thanks to the people who tried to help. But no more blaming. this was a serious mental issue, beyond the immediate circumstances.

In the future, let's try to get Kevins off of internet sites, which are not good for them. they are bound to only get hurt and disappointed on any chat site. At the same time, we all need to resolve, together, to love the Kevins we meet in the future, by God's grace.
scott
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Apr 14, 2013 12:48PM)
Thank you Scott. I've been trying to think of a way to express my sentiments, and you have been a big help. I agree with your thoughts.
Dick
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 14, 2013 01:04PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.

[/quote]

Who said I did? Attack my reading comprehension all you like- that and plenty of other things you liberally spew are patently false, and I'm as free as anyone here to say so.
Message: Posted by: bowers (Apr 14, 2013 01:06PM)
Very well put Scott.
Todd
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 14, 2013 01:10PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:

I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie

[/quote]

I insinuated no such thing. I referred to the previous thread Kevin posted. You haven't read my comments, and those who have can see that. It's this kind of misrepresentation myself and others take issue with you on and I, for one, would appreciate it if yourself and those who've jumped so quickly to your defense would look a little more closely.

My goodness, you really believe you're the only person who knew Kevin spoke out this way on other forums? It wasn't a secret- we're aware, I'm aware, he said it himself, here.

One thing I'm surprised most here haven't stated that's been taught for ages is that when someone says they're suicidal and going to kill themselves, #1 take it seriously EVERY time.

You're credibility's at an all time low when you start with the "I never once" said or did anything wrong stuff and we all know it. None of us are capable of living up to that, including you, OS.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 14, 2013 01:27PM)
Suicide CAN be a cowardly and selfish act, that doesn't mean it always is.

The pain it causes others can be horrendous, and yes, Kevin killed HIMSELF, however, to push it aside as "selfish and cowardly" can be spitting on the pain and suffering an individual was going through.

Not saying anything about the criticism cast at Kevin by OS here, just commenting on the above.
As I, and many others have said, there is no point in playing would have, could have, should have, directed at others, or our selves, but that doesn't mean we can't, or should not, evaluate our own actions.

We don't always fully know to whom we are speaking. OS, from what I gather, and that is admittedly limited, and far from fully informed, so take it for whatever it is, but it sounds like depression absolutely was an issue, especially if he was constantly seeking approval, and fearing rejection.
Even if depression was not an issue, clearly other things were, enough to lead up to such a tragic end.

OS, you seem to admit you were aware of STFS having issues, and claim you "understood" what he was doing with "attention seeking" threads. If so, perhaps harsh criticism was not the best tact? Again, not saying there is ANY blame for what happened. Nothing any individual said, or did, lead directly to what happened. You can't even say there was a straw that broke the camel's back. The camel's back is usually already broken in times like these.
Completely aside from that, if you knew, as you seem to be implying (I could be misunderstanding) that there were issues, again, completely irrespective of suicide, why would harsh criticism have seemed like a helpful thing?

Please, take this for what it is, a sincere question.
There is really no blame to cast amongst those here.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 14, 2013 01:29PM)
Those who think suicide is cowardly had ought to think it through a little further, I think.
Message: Posted by: Zombie Magic (Apr 14, 2013 01:47PM)
All the threads I go to that Kevin posted in, there is Laurie posting positive encouragement to Kevin to follow his dream. Just kindness from her towards him.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=505419&forum=3&start=30

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=463284&forum=3&59&start=30

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=463284&forum=3&start=0
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 14, 2013 01:56PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 14:44, magicalaurie wrote:
Suggesting Kevin shouldn't have been allowed on forums endorses the stigma he was living with every minute of every day. He was an asset to this place, not a tyrant, and we were lucky to have him, indeed.
[/quote]

Yes. We were. He WAS an asset. An inspiration. Made me look at myself a bit closer. Thank you Laurie! :) That sure is a positive note!
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 14, 2013 01:56PM)
Thanks Zombie, that makes the point very well. :)
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Apr 14, 2013 02:54PM)
Wow... "The only bad person here is Kevin..." ....... "I'm angry at Kevin..."............ "Kevin did this to himself..."

I guess it's easy to just throw blame there. Not sure why anyone feels the need to jump in and blame anyone at all. It would be nice to just leave all "blame" completely out of here. I doubt it will go that way, but it would be nice.

Jim
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 14, 2013 02:55PM)
Not that I'm necessarily describing anyone here, but it seems like it is relevant to say this; many "bullies" almost never consider themselves bullies, nor what they do bullying. Kids will openly taunt and tease others, and then turn around and speak out against bullying.

In many ways, plenty of "bullying" isn't even intentional, that is, what is perceived by a person who feels they are being bullied, the person who was speaking/writing, may have even had absolutely no ill intent, and may even think they are helping.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 14, 2013 02:57PM)
Indeed, perhaps it follows that 'bullies' rarely think of others at all.
Message: Posted by: gdw (Apr 14, 2013 02:58PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 15:54, J-Mac wrote:
Wow... "The only bad person here is Kevin..." ....... "I'm angry at Kevin..."............ "Kevin did this to himself..."

I guess it's easy to just throw blame there. Not sure why anyone feels the need to jump in and blame anyone at all. It would be nice to just leave all "blame" completely out of here. I doubt it will go that way, but it would be nice.

Jim
[/quote]

Anger is a natural process in grief, and it is a secondary emotion, usually stemming from other feelings one is having trouble processing/dealing with.

This is a hard situation to process. Obviously nothing compared to what Kevin was going through, nor what his family and close friends are now going through, but not easy none the less.

Unfortunate as it is, people are almost always looking for somewhere to direct blame, especially when they are experiencing something negative. Even in completely naturally occurring deaths, people have a need to put blame somewhere.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Apr 14, 2013 03:19PM)
Suicide is usually done as a viable step for those who feel all other options are gone and that living is so painful that death is a release i.e. it makes sense to that person because of the state of mind/perception he or she is in - often caused by conditions... usually most suicides are linked to having clinical depression, or having taken substances that can cause depression, with or without huge stressors....

It does not have to be seen as a cowardly act. Often people suffering with depression are trying to hang on day to day by a thread, heroically trying to find a reason to live from moment to moment.

Unless you suffer from such a condition yourselves, you will never fully understand - as depression is not normal sadness... its a truly abnormal mood state that is quite deadly.

Blaming a person who commits suicide just contributes to more stigma and often prevents people from reaching out - lest they get blamed for being "weak".. when in fact, the condition is often treatable if the right help is matched to the person in time... the metaphor is like saying its weak to have diabetes or high blood pressure. Depression is not a personality or a free choice for the majority of people (if any).

When faced with situations we have no control over - it is our knee jerk mind reaction to construct a reason or an explanation - often blaming the person because its easier than accepting the horrible truth about ambiguity and the nature of broken healthcare systems and our own responsibilities.

As I mentioned before, looking for explanations is a normative response to such a thing. I've had a few friends commit suicide over the years... and I bet a few of you have too because it actually is way more common than you may want to believe. I still am haunted with the "what if?" even though logically I know there was little to nothing anyone could have done.

Is there something we can do for the family? i.e. do something in terms of a letter of condolence? It helps to do something practical - even if it doesn't give an explanation. IMHO... a point person here who know him?
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 14, 2013 04:04PM)
Very well put, Dr.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Apr 14, 2013 05:12PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else
[/quote]

That's despicable dude. To speak about him in this way is shameful. What if his mum comes on here to read his posts and sees yours.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 14, 2013 05:15PM)
Then she will think that Octopus Sun is an utter p***k.

(Or, at least, that was [i]my[/i] conclusion, flawed as it is.)
Message: Posted by: Harv (Apr 14, 2013 05:59PM)
I know of two other people who decided to end their lives in the same manner as Kevin due to severe depression. They were both older but the result was still the same. Perhaps the mental health system need to be revamped. RIP Kevin and may your afterlife bring you the joy that this life couldn't.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Apr 14, 2013 06:19PM)
Mental health system could always use some revamping, true. But the perception of mental illness could use some progress, as well. There's nothing wrong with being mentally ill. Mentally ill people may behave differently than non mentally ill, but there's nothing wrong with that, and most mentally ill people never harm anyone except themselves, but that does not mean they are weak or cowardly. Understand "normal" people is difficult enough, let alone someone with severe depression or bipolar issues or anything else. Any conjecture on why Kevin did what did is just that, conjecture. We all cared about him, but he's the only one that knows why he did it.
Message: Posted by: Mule Henderson (Apr 14, 2013 06:58PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 18:12, Sean Giles wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-14 10:13, Octopus Sun wrote:
I'm having serious issues.
I did nothing wrong, said nothing wrong.

I read the post STFS wrote and I monitored it up to it's
deletion. I never posted a reply to that deleted as has been insinuated by Laurie
placing the blame on me, then she tries to justify herself by saying she wasn't.
She has no reading comprehension this we know by her self indulgent posting
without seriously investigating.

That thread degenerated into muck and mire as all of STSF threads...
that's what set him off over the edge, the deletion of his attention wanting thread.

#1 Not one person here understands STSF post and it's correct content.
STSF came in with his usual rant, I tend to avoid his threads since
he does just that rant on and on.

When I read that thread I knew something was wrong.
I went to his FB page read his threats on FB and I CALLED THE CHANDLER POLICE DEPT.

I talked with the shift supervisor at 4am pacific time...she told me
that they were in contact with Kevin's parents and something serious indeed
had happened. She could not tell me anything more and that if we want info
we need to contact Kevin's parents.

I explained to her about his post on the Café' and FB
She said there is nothing that we can do, and the parents are taking care of
everything. She reiterated, Kevin did preform and complete his actions of self destruction.

#2 In the last 2yrs STSF has threatened suicide here and on several
other forums constantly holding the users and those forms hostage
with his threats of bodily harm.

Kevin did not only post on the Café" people, he was a member at coin collector's forum, martial arts forums and more
he made the same posts on all forums, like he was cutting and pasting them.

For attention is why he did this, because of his fear of rejection.

Kevin set himself up for rejection.

People, you need to stand back, drop the bias no matter how you feel and look at the Correct Situation here.

The Café' is not the only place he hung out as all of you want to believe.


FU Laurie. You have no right to blame me or anyone else.
You have no f'n reading comprehension what so ever, you have proven this fact at least a dozen times.
you straight up twist everything people say to fit your fantasy world.

I never once said anything wrong to Kevin.
Did you read his post I was responding to?
No you didn't, and if you did you would see I was correct in my response to his post.

Kevin's thread was not a cry for help or a suicide note
it was another of his FU rant's, which he titled "I love you"
He was threatening the Café' again as he always has in the past.

How can one take someone serious when they cry wolf for 3yrs every
2months right on key. Saying I'm going to kill myself
Kevin straight up refused his meds and treatment in AZ

AZ has messed up mental health laws...any patient over 18 no matter how messed up in their head
makes their own decision to receive AZ State help or not. no matter if their decision is correct or not.
If they choose to receive the help funding assistance you must follows very specific guidelines and rules.
If they refuse to follow the rules AZ tosses the patients to the streets.

This is what happened to Kevin, he told us in his past post...
How many of you read and comprehend this when he tells us this stuff...not Laurie.

Kevin was kicked out of the system 2 weeks or so ago because he decided to refuse the treatments
He decided to not follow the rules.
His parents could only let him come home, no other choice.

One last thing you people never consider

and that's the Children here on the Café'

Our kids have no need to read or comprehend the crap Kevin brought here or to other forums
Kevin had issues and depression was not one of them, and that's a fact.
He had serious Mental issues no one here knew about, things he kept hidden.
Talk with his Parents if you have the inner fortitude.

This is why the Mods deleted that bs thread.

No you don't you all just want to point the finger

Ashamed No I am not, but I feel hurt inside to know I may have caused him
to give up instead of go on to bigger things.

I don't feel responsible, but because of Laurie and others here, I do have a twinge of disrespect for her and them because of their
childish finger wagging without knowing or even reading the original thread

whose the bad person people here...

only one and that was Kevin for placing the forum in this situation...think about the other forums he posted this same thing and how they must all be feeling going through, blaming each other for this kids BS.

no one else
[/quote]

That's despicable dude. To speak about him in this way is shameful. What if his mum comes on here to read his posts and sees yours.
[/quote]

Got to agree with you Sean, for once. Octopussy Son has proven himself to be a bully in many other threads and this is just one more example. Of course he did not see this coming and it can't be just because of him. But, the undeniable thing is he can't say he didn't help in perpetuating a downward spiral. He may try and back track to redeem his behavior, but too little too late. He has put himself in one of two groups in regards to Kevin and clearly he is in the negative motivation group, whether one can say negative motivation is good or bad and for whom.

The thing is, when you're on an impersonal public forum the only route is positive motivation. Unless you personally know someone and their circumstance can you decide they need some "tough love" or a kick in the pants. This guy has no boundaries and obviously his insensitivity undermines his attempts at intelligence and any beneficial assistance to anyone.