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Topic: Kill the poor to balance budget
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 22, 2013 04:44PM)
An article responding to the government’s planned super changes targeting the wealthy, has recommended killing off the poorest 20 per cent of Australians as an alternate way to balance the nation’s budget.

“A modest cull would strike at the root of our fiscal dilemma,” suggested author Toby Ralph in his piece titled “Kill the poor” published on the website of Liberal Party-aligned think tank, Menzies house.

http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/kill-the-poor-to-balance-budget-002133551.html

Hmmm

My advice is that you poor people better start getting yourselves some money quick.
Message: Posted by: Stevie Tricker (Apr 22, 2013 05:06PM)
Vaguely reminiscent of political contributions from Vlad the Impaler.

Even though they are liberal party. WOW that's truly some free thinking, unfortunately a very poor example of it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 22, 2013 05:12PM)
It is what they are doing anyway. They call it austerity.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Apr 22, 2013 05:41PM)
Pat Paulsen when he ran for president said that we could solve the unemployment problem by shooting 500 bums a week.
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Apr 22, 2013 08:48PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-22 18:06, Stevie Tricker wrote:
Vaguely reminiscent of political contributions from Vlad the Impaler.

Even though they are liberal party. WOW that's truly some free thinking, unfortunately a very poor example of it.
[/quote]

Hi Steve,

Respectfully submitted, but, I think you need to read up on Prince Vlad III Basarab. He was NOT in favor of killing the poor. In fact, Prince Vlad killed the boyars (nobles) who were stealing FROM the poor and who were a threat to his rule. Yes his methods were cruel, but, many of his contemporaries and some rulers even a century or two later were far far worse - does Russia's Ivan the Terrible ring a bell?

Prince Vlad III is considered by many Romanians as a hero.

A better analogy would have been Jonathan Swift's satirical piece titled "A Modest Proposal." Bear in mind that this was a satirical piece aimed at the excesses of royalty. Swift proposed that infants should be sold as food. Give it a read sometime.

Back to Vlad III for a moment: compared to many of his contemporaries, he was actually a very forward thinking monarch in many ways. Under his two reigns, the peasants actually flourished. At the time, Islam was sweeping into Europe. The Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. What is now known as Romania was one of the strongholds against the onslaught - and it was violent - of Islam into Christian Europe.

Namaste,

The "other" Vlad ;)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 22, 2013 08:55PM)
Yeah, but after he died, Vlad came back and drained the poor folks dry. :eek:
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 22, 2013 09:18PM)
:)

Said the Mental Vampire

We’re really suckers, you understand, us at the bottom.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 22, 2013 11:00PM)
You wound me deeply, Van Helsing.

:eek:
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 22, 2013 11:20PM)
It was meant as a compliment master.



'The genealogy shows I am descended from Vlad the Impaler, so I do have a bit of a stake in the country,'

- Prince Charles
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 22, 2013 11:59PM)
Good one, Tommy! Did Charles really say that?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 23, 2013 12:19AM)
Yes he is trying to save the trees in Transylvania.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2228040/Prince-Charles-heir-Draculas-blood-line-link-used-boost-tourism-Romania.html
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 23, 2013 04:27AM)
It should be noted that the Australian Liberal Party is not 'liberal' in the American sense.

It is the Aussie equivalent of the Republican Party, though on many issues, to the left of the Democrats.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 23, 2013 07:05AM)
It's so interesting and horrifying that yesterday's satire has become today's reality. It's enough to make The Onion go out of business--how can they compete?
Message: Posted by: Russell Davidson (Apr 23, 2013 07:26AM)
Personally I'd begin the cull with youtube magicians. Then move on to the poor :)
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 23, 2013 08:07AM)
Not exactly Swift, eh?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 23, 2013 09:42AM)
Not only do they Kill the poor to balance the budget but kill the poor to balance nature. Which is why they raise the cost of living past what the poor can afford and freeze to death in their homes etcetera, that's if the poor are lucky enough not to be homeless. Such is life, as Ned said.
Message: Posted by: Stevie Tricker (Apr 23, 2013 11:47AM)
Thanks for the info Vlad, :thanx:

I can be a little ill-informed at times but am always keen to learn, great to see that its not just a magical education that you get around here.

Can see why he was demonised by certain sects of society.

Regards,
Stevie
Message: Posted by: Vlad_77 (Apr 23, 2013 02:35PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-23 12:47, Stevie Tricker wrote:
Thanks for the info Vlad, :thanx:

I can be a little ill-informed at times but am always keen to learn, great to see that its not just a magical education that you get around here.

Can see why he was demonised by certain sects of society.

Regards,
Stevie
[/quote]

Hey Stevie,

You're welcome! It's interesting that you mentioned how he was despised. Much of the bad press if you will came from much later Russian and German "accounts" of Vlad's rule. No he was no saint by any stretch, but much of what was written of Prince Vlad III was unsubstantiated.

If you feel like a little non-magic reading, a great book to get is In Search of Dracula by Dr. Raymond McNally and Professor Radu Florescu. McNally was a professor of Russian and Eastern European studies and presents a very balanced view of Vlad III and his expertise in Russian history helps immensely to explain and dispel many of the more outlandish myths about Vlad III.

Namaste,
Vlad
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 23, 2013 09:55PM)
I just finally read the article and noticed Menzies house was established by Cory Bernardi - he's our local one man amalgam of the Tea Party and Westboro Baptist Church.

This was an interesting sentence:

"“Traffic would move faster unhampered by windscreen cleaners, streets would be cleared of pavement artists and beggars while homeless shelters in our better suburbs could be turned into agreeable gastro pubs, Cafés and wine bars."

I suspect the article was written with an international audience in mind. I have only seen windscreen cleaners in overseas movies. The only pavement artists I've ever seen were talented buskers, working under license from their local municipality. Our cities do suffer the odd beggars but not as many as most places because Australia has one of the most comprehensive social welfare systems in the world. And I can think of no homeless shelter in a 'better suburb' - even in not so 'better suburbs' the protests come thick and furious if there's so much as consideration of public housing, much less homeless shelters.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Apr 23, 2013 11:42PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-23 22:55, Destiny wrote:
...
And I can think of no homeless shelter in a 'better suburb' - even in not so 'better suburbs' the protests come thick and furious if there's so much as consideration of public housing, much less homeless shelters.
[/quote]

I'm surprised that in such a 'progressive' country that provides so many social programs for the poor that people would protest public housing or homeless shelters.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 24, 2013 12:09AM)
The majority of long term homeless people are found in the large cities of Sydney, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane. It is estimated that on any given night approximately 105,000 people will be homeless. It wouldn't take long to cull them to start with. Feed them to the alligators perhaps.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 24, 2013 01:14AM)
Do they have alligators in Australia, or just crocodiles?
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 24, 2013 01:52AM)
Bob,

Only crocodiles - the saltwater are, with the Nile River crocs, the most dangerous in the world, and our freshwater crocs - amongst the harmless.

I performed with crocs for a decade and was surprised when we obtained some gators how placid and harmless they were by comparison.

Rockwall,

It is a very different thing to agree to contribute to social programs to help the needy - at a distance - than to actually deal with social problems close at hand on an every day basis. I don't know if the expression is used over there but here it is quite common - NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard). There is also probably some suspicion surrounding homeless people in that unemployment benefit, paid by the government, is available to all unemployed people here, for the duration of their unemployment - and the only way to lose it would be to not participate in the programs designed to help people back into the workforce. Australia also has low unemployment.

Tommy,

It will soon be winter here and the crocs which have a low metabolism and don't eat much at the best of times, will be eating very little at all. We will need to find another solution as Aussie predators are not big eaters, with the exception of Ms Rinehart.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 24, 2013 02:59AM)
Thanks Destiny. I was pretty sure there were no indigenous alligators there so I wasn't too worried about them eating the poor folk. But if the crocs won't do it either, what about big snakes or sharks? You've got plenty of them, right?

:eek:

And, yes, NIMBY is a common acronym and attitude here as well.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 24, 2013 05:34AM)
We have 5 of the 10 most poisonous snakes in the world including the top 2 but while there is an occasional snake bite fatality, our snakes don't eat people. Our Amethystine Python can grow to 8.5 metres (about 9 yards) but it's not a very bulky snake and doesn't eat people. Sharks kill a couple of people a year and dingos about 1 every 30 years. We have a bird, the cassowary, which attacks and kills people but the last fatality was about 90 years ago, so not much hope there.

The best option might be for the government to stop funding healthy lifestyle promotion so that we increase the death rate from diabetes and lung cancer.

Gina Rinehart's dad did his best with his promotion of asbestos. He had an asbestos mine and NIL safety precautions for the workers. He apparently used to spread what he claimed was asbestos on his breakfast cereal and eat it to allay any fears Australians had about the product.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 24, 2013 09:01AM)
We live and learn! Well except if we are poor for then we teach and die.
Never smile at a crocodile.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 24, 2013 09:10AM)
I have never yet known a crocodile that took exception to a friendly smile, but nor does it win their affection.

They are indifferent to human facial expression.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 24, 2013 09:14AM)
[quote]Well except if we are poor for then we teach and die. [/quote]
More like, if you teach, then you'll be poor and die ;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 24, 2013 09:35AM)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20052606

Hmmm

Maybe the poor should hold a crocodile for a minute.

They have but need of courage.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 24, 2013 02:42PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-24 10:10, Destiny wrote:
I have never yet known a crocodile that took exception to a friendly smile, but nor does it win their affection.

They are indifferent to human facial expression.
[/quote]
Okay, I'll bite since the crocs didn't--what the heck were you doing with crocodiles for a decade?
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 24, 2013 03:07PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-24 10:10, Destiny wrote:
I have never yet known a crocodile that took exception to a friendly smile, but nor does it win their affection.

They are indifferent to human facial expression.
[/quote]

This is not the original, but it IS hilarious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QplULRL_omY
Message: Posted by: Kune (Apr 24, 2013 04:16PM)
[quote]
On 2013-04-22 21:48, Vlad_77 wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-04-22 18:06, Stevie Tricker wrote:
Vaguely reminiscent of political contributions from Vlad the Impaler.

Even though they are liberal party. WOW that's truly some free thinking, unfortunately a very poor example of it.
[/quote]

Hi Steve,

Respectfully submitted, but, I think you need to read up on Prince Vlad III Basarab. He was NOT in favor of killing the poor. In fact, Prince Vlad killed the boyars (nobles) who were stealing FROM the poor and who were a threat to his rule. Yes his methods were cruel, but, many of his contemporaries and some rulers even a century or two later were far far worse - does Russia's Ivan the Terrible ring a bell?

Prince Vlad III is considered by many Romanians as a hero.

A better analogy would have been Jonathan Swift's satirical piece titled "A Modest Proposal." Bear in mind that this was a satirical piece aimed at the excesses of royalty. Swift proposed that infants should be sold as food. Give it a read sometime.

Back to Vlad III for a moment: compared to many of his contemporaries, he was actually a very forward thinking monarch in many ways. Under his two reigns, the peasants actually flourished. At the time, Islam was sweeping into Europe. The Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. What is now known as Romania was one of the strongholds against the onslaught - and it was violent - of Islam into Christian Europe.

Namaste,

The "other" Vlad ;)
[/quote]



Vlad the Impaler was in favor of killing everyone - often as painfully as possible.

"Having come to view destitution as a scourge on his domain, Tepes invited his poverty-stricken subjects to dine with him. At the end of the dinner, he had the dining room locked, and his guards set fire to it, killing those inside"
http://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/real-count-dracula1.htm


"Even during his lifetime, Vlad III Țepeș became famous as a tyrant taking sadistic pleasure in torturing and killing.[23] He is shown in crypto-portraits made during his lifetime in the role of cruel rulers or executioners. After Vlad's death, his cruel deeds were reported with macabre gusto in popular pamphlets in Germany, reprinted from the 1480s until the 1560s, and to a lesser extent in Tsarist Russia.
Vlad the Impaler as Aegeas, the Roman proconsul in Patras, crucifying Saint Andrew. Approximately 1470–1480, Belvedere Galleries, Vienna.[citation needed]

Estimates of the number of his victims range from 40,000 to 100,000, comparable to the cumulative number of executions over four centuries of European witchhunts.[24] According to the German stories the number of victims he had killed was at least 80,000. In addition to the 80,000 victims mentioned he also had whole villages and fortresses destroyed and burned to the ground.[25]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler#Reputation_for_cruelty


He also killed the nobles, entirely for personal reasons. To my knowledge, he never had anything against power or wealth, so long as it didn't disadvantage him.
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Apr 24, 2013 04:34PM)
I'm not sure that wikipedia.org and howstuffworks.com are very dependable sources. Especially when they are quoting Russian and German anti-Romanian propaganda, and are asking for citations even for what is there.
Message: Posted by: scottds80 (Apr 24, 2013 04:59PM)
Crocs are only found up way north, and to transport hundreds of thousands of people across the nation against their will would be a challenge.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 24, 2013 06:53PM)
There is an option I'd forgotten as a Northern Australian.

The Tasmanian carnivorous penguin eats enormous amounts of meat.

I often see fundraisers in shopping centres raising funds to buy enough meat to keep them from extinction. One of them is always dressed up as a penguin. In the early years of white settlement, people tried to kill out the penguins, horrified that they ate the bodies of shipwrecked sailors. Now we're trying to save them.

Tasmania is close to the big population centres of Australia so we could both dispose of the poor and save the penguin.

(I was about to say 'killing two birds with one stone' but that would be confusing and contradictory.)

..........................

Landmark, I worked from the late 80's till the late 90's in a wildlife park performing with native animals.
Message: Posted by: Stevie Tricker (Apr 24, 2013 07:18PM)
Thanks for the input Kune,

Past experience has taught me that history tends to be written from a skewed view in favour of the whims of whoever was in power after the event that was worth writing about.

If I get the time to look into it I'll view all available information and see what resonates.


On a lighter note a sketch from "That Mitchell and Webb Look" a British comedy from 7 years ago.
A politician and his aids discussing running the "kill all the poor" scenario through the computer to see how the figures work out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg

For non EU audiences Lidl is a budget supermarket here in the UK and I gather around certain parts of Europe also?