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Topic: A more directed start?
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 24, 2013 06:41PM)
Evening all!

I'm new here, however I am not too new to mentalism! iv have been studying mentalism for around a year now these are the areas I have looked into so far in detail:
- reading people
- non-verbal communication
looked at in a more surfaced detail (knowing the basics):
(and I just want to add that I am going to be looking at the below topics in as great a detail the above two topics)
-hypnosis
- NLP

I am really passionate about being a great mentalist so I was wondering if I could get any guidance from my fellow friends at this Café,what should I look at next or even if you know of any useful and ingenious texts I could read and be inspired from.

I have read 13 steps to mentalism and Fundamentals which were both great works! I am very interested in the performance act of mind manipulation and metal "mindreading" as the speculators would assume it to be, and I want to exceedingly expand my knowledge in that field, so if I can trouble you to PM some tips or even direct me in the right light or what not, that would make a massive difference to me and id be so thankful!!

I hope this is not to much to digest ... in essence I just want to be a great mentalist :)

thank you for reading

great day/night (timezones!)

TM
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 24, 2013 07:49PM)
You say you've read Fundamentals. I suggest you look at the appendix section titled "The 39 Steps." It contains all of the information you're looking for.
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 25, 2013 04:48AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-24 20:49, mastermindreader wrote:
You say you've read Fundamentals. I suggest you look at the appendix section titled "The 39 Steps." It contains all of the information you're looking for.
[/quote]

I have formed a list in my diary of the next work materials that I am going to be investing in, however I was wondering if ...what I will need will be found purly in those texts? non the less I will look through "The 39 steps" once again, great suggestion!

and I thank you Bob you are among my inspirations, your work is timeless, I have watched and studied all your works - fascinated.

work hard and stay brilliant

cheers

af
Message: Posted by: parmenion (Aug 25, 2013 05:52AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-25 05:48, TripleM wrote:

and I thank you Bob you are among my inspirations, your work is timeless, I have watched and studied all your works - fascinated.

work hard and stay brilliant

cheers

af
[/quote]

So, you read more than 13 step and fundamental if you have also read the complete works of Bob :)
Man! It's lot of stuff!
In one year, it's already a lot, try to understand what you already have and try them in the real world.
Nowadays, so much information are avalaible and newcomer want to have read all of them in 2 months, it's useless.
Experiences is the only things very important in mentalism and it takes many years.
Message: Posted by: John C (Aug 25, 2013 09:01AM)
Like doing 6 months at Harvard school of nuerology then wanting to go work on people's brains.
Message: Posted by: Bill Brunelle (Aug 25, 2013 09:17AM)
Couldn't agree more with these recommendations. Unless you've actually started using the complete works of Bob Cassidy on real audiences (even one or two people at a time), then there's no point in reading anything else. This is crystal clear in all those Cassidy audios you've listened to. Your own experience will teach you more than anything in the books. And the books will make so much more sense if you've tried things out before that second reading. Reading more about swimming is not going to teach a beginner how to swim. They have to get in the water. They will make some mistakes and swallow some water, but that's the only way to learn.
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 25, 2013 12:36PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-25 06:52, parmenion wrote:
So, you read more than 13 step and fundamental if you have also read the complete works of Bob :)
Man! It's lot of stuff!
In one year, it's already a lot, try to understand what you already have and try them in the real world.
Nowadays, so much information are available and newcomer want to have read all of them in 2 months, it's useless.
Experiences is the only things very important in mentalism and it takes many years.
[/quote]




yes I have read 13 steps and the Fundamentals but I haven't read ALL of Bobs works, haha I am a student so I have to balance both work and mentalism, I say I have been studying mentalism for a year but in essence its not really a full year because I don't do it everyday due to exams and all that jazz. however, now that I am going off to university in the city, I feel now would be the primal time to get a few small "performance" acts together in order to finally preform!! (to members more than my close circle of friends and family).

I would love to start with a "mind-reading/mental manipulation" act, but I wont be preforming on stage ..because of my circumstances, I will most likely begin with street mentalism therefore I was looking for a more direct, quick and effective act/s. this is where I feel like I need direction
Message: Posted by: Simon (Ted) Edwards (Aug 25, 2013 12:42PM)
Ah, street mentalism. Another can of worms :)
Have you ever seen street mentalism in real life (not a video recording)?
T.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 25, 2013 12:51PM)
Hi TripleM,

I am really impressed by your enthusiasm and desire to be the best mentalist you can be.

If you don't mind me asking, who are your spectators at the moment? Is it friends and family? And which effects have you chosen to perform for them?

Regards,
Martin.
Message: Posted by: Cervier (Aug 25, 2013 01:34PM)
Street mentalism??? Please don't try. You've read a lot about mentalism, you know by now the kind of atmosphere it requires, or sets, and you probably know as well that while magic is perceived as tricks and sleight of hand, mentalism is for real. What kind of atmosphere do you think can be set in the street? Why would a mind reader stop people in the street and demonstrate he can guess the serial number of their banknotes??? Wouldn't that look like a magic trick?

Even if you don't want to be a mentalist, but say, a "mental magician", I wouldn't recommend street performances. It's not because all promotional videos nowadays are shot in a street environment it is a good idea!

Whatever your feelings on the subject are, even if you don't listent to the advice given here and go for "street mentalism", you should make thinges easier for yourself (hence, probably more enjoyable for your audience) by starting in a "controlled environment" (e.g. seated spectators who won't walk away in the middle of your act, in a room where everyone can see you, etc.). If you don't have such opportunities, organize some :)
Message: Posted by: john wills (Aug 25, 2013 02:06PM)
Triple Ma,
In my opinion this is the downside of TV-specials, where everything is possible under all circumstances. Test it a few times in a street in your neighborhood and you will be cured!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 25, 2013 02:47PM)
The problem is one of perception. WHY, for example, would someone who had the ability to read minds be working the streets or table-hopping at a Pizza-Hut? Who do you think is more believable- a Dunninger-like persona on television, on a stage or in another formal setting, or a guy passing a hat to a crowd (or approaching a table wearing a "Hi, my name is Joe" name tag)?

I realize there are those who will disagree with me on this, but it is nonetheless something that should be considered by any thinking performer.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Cervier (Aug 25, 2013 03:42PM)
I, for one, agree with Bob on that. I almost wrote something like that in my post above. But I would like to explaint a bit more precisely that, I don't think the problem is with the surroundings (street, restaurant, etc.) but with the fact you go towards people, instead of having people come to you.
I con't see a mind reader walking to someone "hey, want to experience something cool?" :-(
But if people walk to you and _they_ ask for something, than it's different. For instance, if you're on a bench in a public park doing a reading and someone comes to you and engages conversation, then it's not "street mentalism" (yerk!) but mentalism. Or could be.
There's the same difference between "street magic", and "doing magic in the street", if you see what I meean.
If you don't see what I mean, it's normal: it's not crystal-clear for me either ;-)
Message: Posted by: Trickstar (Aug 25, 2013 10:52PM)
Hey Triple M

My advice, for what it is worth. Pick 3 effects you like and can perform. Practice them till you have them down perfect, then go out and perform them as often as you can to as many people as you can - , reflect,learn and improve from each performance. Keep doing this till it becomes second nature.
Then

Pick another 3 effects and repeat the process.... and again and again till you have reached whatever goals you have set for yourself.

One issue that we face when starting out as mentalists is that we have a limited number of friends/family to practice on - which leads to a situation where the aspiring mentalist feels the need to learn as many effects as possible in order to practice - because repeating effects on our finite number of friends/family is basically out of the question. This in turn leads to having a number of half-ass effects i.e. lots of effects but little experience performing each effect. I strongly suggest focussing on getting a few effects down really really well by performing for strangers so then you have a few effects but lots of experience performing them, this approach is what will make your mindreading convincing as you will develop in confidence and competence. Family are actually quite horrible to practice on IMO because they ain't buying the sh*t we are trying to sell.

All the best and I look forward to reading your posts as you progress.
Message: Posted by: PhilDean (Aug 26, 2013 02:17AM)
With all due respect to some of the more experienced workers here but does anyone else reckon one of these days someone will come along, ignore all the know-all advice and create something original, leaving you all kicking yourselves? Food for thought...
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Aug 26, 2013 02:58AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 03:17, PhilDean wrote:
With all due respect to some of the more experienced workers here but does anyone else reckon one of these days someone will come along, ignore all the know-all advice and create something original, leaving you all kicking yourselves? Food for thought...
[/quote]

Phil, you're a mindreader... :ohyes:

I'm in the midst of doing just that with my new routine for a competition next year...

But it's early days, so I'll keep it under wraps until next year. ;)
Message: Posted by: Trickstar (Aug 26, 2013 03:57AM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 03:17, PhilDean wrote:
With all due respect to some of the more experienced workers here but does anyone else reckon one of these days someone will come along, ignore all the know-all advice and create something original, leaving you all kicking yourselves? Food for thought...
[/quote]

That would actually be awesome, though I'm a little unsure why anyone would kick themselves for the success of another? The guy that started this thread seemed to be seeking advice about how to get good/progress in mentalism, rather than how to be an original or unique mentalist. That is not to say that these 2 things are mutually exclusive, but they are not the same thing.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 26, 2013 05:03AM)
What "know all" advice are you referring to Phil? The suggestion that beginners should read and study to get a good background in the art? That's basically the advice that's been given here. But, as Trickstar noted, why do you suppose anyone would "kick themselves" if someone ignored that and managed to succeed anyway?

In short, what was the real point of your remark?

If you'd prefer, though, that we DON'T give advice to those who ask, please feel free to say so.
Message: Posted by: seamagu (Aug 26, 2013 05:12AM)
Hi triplem, I still consider myself a newbie after a few years. There are some books that I found really helped at the early stages. Switch craft is a must. I was reading it the other day and am still learning from it. Apart from that I would just go with what takes your fancy, enjoy the ride and read lots of reviews before purchasing. Also check out lybrary.com I got lots of my books there.

Best regards,

Sea
Message: Posted by: DonEduardo (Aug 26, 2013 12:27PM)
I like that advice of getting three effects down pat, and improving upon them each time you perform. But getting those three effects is not easy. I've found that any stand-alone technique is seen through by the spectator (at least in my case). I had to collect many techniques and figure out how best I could layer them. Some effects are purely logical, and the most logical spectators figure them out. But if a little sleight of hand is introduced at some point, the logical ones get all caught up. The ones that are always looking for the sleight of hand can get caught up in other ways. So, yeah, limit the number of effects, but in my (very limited) experience multiple techniques need to be utilized to keep them off balance.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 26, 2013 02:47PM)
I think the 3 effects suggestion is a very good one indeed. Chan Canasta had an extremely limited repertoire of effects but he had mastered them to such a degree he was free to jazz with them.

I would recommend that someone starting out in mentalism could try something like:
Ultra Mental Deck
Free Will (with specs objects)
Positive Negative.

That way he/she would be able to focus more fully on presentation without worrying about nerve-wracking sleights or complex routines (that is not to say the above effects should not be practiced intensively before presentation-I have seen many an ID effect ruined by the vice-like grip of the performer on the cards!). At the same time they would getting a grounding in e*******e, calculating in their head(on the fly)and v****l s*****t of h**d. All skills that will pay huge dividends going forward.

Only after mastering something like the above effects would I move to CT's, billet work etc. I think relaxation and confidence are hugely importance to a performer and they are fickle mistresses who can easily turn their heels and escape from you if you o'erreach yourself too soon!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2013 02:54PM)
Personally, I wouldnt have said chan canasta had a limited repetoire of effects, he had his own live tv show, so he wouldn't have repeated much - and his guest spots, the film, and so on...
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Aug 26, 2013 03:33PM)
As has already been said I would learn to do a few effects well, ideally ones that flow as a little mini act and then find as many opportunities as possible to perform them to strangers. Friends and family are not the ideal audience, they know you too well and have too many preconceptions about you. They will generally be overly kind or more inclined to watch you like a hawk knowing its a trick. Strangers have no preconceptions and will judge your performance purely on its merits. You will also learn far more about audience management by performing to complete strangers.

Mark
Message: Posted by: seamagu (Aug 26, 2013 03:51PM)
Guys, even though this is sound advice, I'm not sure any of us with a passion for mentalism could be content with just a few effects. By all means have those few that you can do well and can use to build confidence.
I'm sure its the same for everyone here, I simply can't consume enough knowledge on the subject of mentalism. I think what the Op is asking is how he can avoid wasting time on reading rubbish which is something that still happens. My advice is to read Craig Brownings essay on becoming a mentalist if you want some direction on what material to purchase. I think it is in a post somewhere here. It is an excellent list of high quality learning material.

Hope that helps and that I haven't offended anyone.

Best regards,
Sea
Message: Posted by: seamagu (Aug 26, 2013 03:55PM)
Guys, even though this is sound advice, I'm not sure any of us with a passion for mentalism could be content with just a few effects. By all means have those few that you can do well and can use to build confidence.
I'm sure its the same for everyone here, I simply can't consume enough knowledge on the subject of mentalism. I think what the Op is asking is how he can avoid wasting time on reading rubbish which is something that still happens. My advice is to read Craig Brownings essay on becoming a mentalist if you want some direction on what material to purchase. I think it is in a post somewhere here. It is an excellent list of high quality learning material.

Hope that helps and that I haven't offended anyone.

Best regards,
Sea
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Aug 26, 2013 04:16PM)
No offence taken Sea, but I don't think anyone is suggesting learning three effects to the exclusion of all others. Just to combine one's reading material with practical work in the field. In my opinion one makes better progress by repeating and honing a limited repertoire of effects rather than flitting from effect to effect, none of which you really master. I think repetition is vital in any art form. I remember reading an article that claimed repetition as one of the key components of genius!

Also, I think nowadays we have a glut of information and there is a danger that so much is at our fingertips we don't take the time to re-read and re-study material already in our possession.

Just my two cents, and I'm sure many wiser men and women will disagree with me.
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 26, 2013 04:19PM)
Firstly, I am overwhelmed by the number of constructive responses! I feel I have learned a bunch of valuable points already! this is fantastic there is nothing I love more than constructive criticism, so thank you to all who have inputed their thoughts and views!
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 26, 2013 04:20PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 06:12, seamagu wrote:
Hi triplem, I still consider myself a newbie after a few years. There are some books that I found really helped at the early stages. Switch craft is a must. I was reading it the other day and am still learning from it. Apart from that I would just go with what takes your fancy, enjoy the ride and read lots of reviews before purchasing. Also check out lybrary.com I got lots of my books there.

Best regards,

Sea
[/quote]

yes I very much will :) thank you for your positive post ! and also thanks for the new web link - handy
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 26, 2013 04:23PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 16:33, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
As has already been said I would learn to do a few effects well, ideally ones that flow as a little mini act and then find as many opportunities as possible to perform them to strangers. Friends and family are not the ideal audience, they know you too well and have too many preconceptions about you. They will generally be overly kind or more inclined to watch you like a hawk knowing its a trick. Strangers have no preconceptions and will judge your performance purely on its merits. You will also learn far more about audience management by performing to complete strangers.

Mark
[/quote]

yes I have found that to be the case when performing to family they are just waiting for you to mess up haha that's why I wanted to preform outside but I have now learned that the street isn't the best place to start which is a fair play! I need to be looking for indoor on stage preformaces...this will be hard for my circumstance...but I will see
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 26, 2013 04:26PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-25 16:42, LCervier wrote:
I, for one, agree with Bob on that. I almost wrote something like that in my post above. But I would like to explaint a bit more precisely that, I don't think the problem is with the surroundings (street, restaurant, etc.) but with the fact you go towards people, instead of having people come to you.
I con't see a mind reader walking to someone "hey, want to experience something cool?" :-(
But if people walk to you and _they_ ask for something, than it's different. For instance, if you're on a bench in a public park doing a reading and someone comes to you and engages conversation, then it's not "street mentalism" (yerk!) but mentalism. Or could be.
There's the same difference between "street magic", and "doing magic in the street", if you see what I meean.
If you don't see what I mean, it's normal: it's not crystal-clear for me either ;-)
[/quote]

yes I do see where you and Bob are coming from...see I never thought of that because I have watched a few street mentalists and naturally I figured ...well its a good place to start haha you and bob have clarified otherwise! but I fully respect and understand thank you for teaching me a valuable lesson! hmmm ...i need to think about my next moves now .
Message: Posted by: TripleM (Aug 26, 2013 04:28PM)
[quote]
On 2013-08-26 13:27, DonEduardo wrote:
I like that advice of getting three effects down pat, and improving upon them each time you perform. But getting those three effects is not easy. I've found that any stand-alone technique is seen through by the spectator (at least in my case). I had to collect many techniques and figure out how best I could layer them. Some effects are purely logical, and the most logical spectators figure them out. But if a little sleight of hand is introduced at some point, the logical ones get all caught up. The ones that are always looking for the sleight of hand can get caught up in other ways. So, yeah, limit the number of effects, but in my (very limited) experience multiple techniques need to be utilized to keep them off balance.
[/quote]

that's great clear and direct advice right there! thanks il note this down - much appreciated!