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Topic: Geoffery Ronning and hypnosis
Message: Posted by: magicman02 (Dec 11, 2003 06:48AM)
Hi guys,
I want to get into hypnosis, but I absolutely have no background in hypnosis, I have never hypnotized anyone in my life. But I do know that any skill that someone else is doing can be learned. I didn't know jack squat about magic 4 years ago and I know a lot now and I am a semi-pro. When I saw my first show when I was in high school. I thought it was all staged and stooges, but I know it isn't.

I want to attend Geoffery Ronnings training in Vegas. He basically says that in three intense days he can teach you everything about hypnosis that you can walk out and do a full show that you are proud of in a month or two. I have heard really good things about the seminar, but has anyone here personally attended his training?

Also hypnosis (at least to me) is more interactive and exciting then magic (even though I do magic and it is my first love), so I was wondering why isn't every magician doing hypnosis then? Is it the factor of not being able to hypnotize anyone or afraid of getting sued? By the way do a lot of hypnotists get sued? I heard you need liability insurance and that you should never perform with out it. But if you are just starting out, do you need it or do you wait till you have a couple shows under your belt? I have read the thread on liability insurance and it is good, but I was wondering how much does it cost? Is it monthly payments or yearly?

Thank guys
Amir
Message: Posted by: jlibby (Dec 11, 2003 09:27AM)
I haven't attended Geoff's training. I have ordered some of his products, though. He and his wife Wendy are great to do business with.

Concerning today's litigious climate, I wouldn't advise anyone to perform without insurance. The coverage from the IBM (which excludes hypnosis) starts at $111.00 a year. I believe the coverage from Clowns Of The USA (which includes coverage for hypnosis) is $165.00 a year. This is incredibly inexpensive coverage. If you ever do have a claim filed against you, you'll be glad you paid that tiny premium.

See ya!
Joe L.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 11, 2003 01:20PM)
If you are going to attend Geoffrey's Training in April, I would suggest that you go to his website now and at least pick up his 'How to structure an Expert Hypnotic Show Pre-Talk' tape program. It will teach you how to create your pre-talk which is what you say to the audience before the show to get them excited about coming up on the stage. This will give you training in the Ronning fashion and give you something to have critiqued and to be worked on at the training.

Also, if you are willing to spend that kind of money, look into the Modern Stage Hypnosis Show Training package that he has put together. It is basically a taping of the live training in October. You will get a $500 certificate that you can apply towards the live training and it will give you a head start. You can learn directly from Geoffrey the same as you will at the training and then go for hands on follow up in April. It will give you a head start on just being the odd guy with absolutely no training at all.

If you are really serious about doing this and commit yourself I would recommend that you start marketing your hypnosis show now. If you are a semi-pro you have a client base to market to as well as in all advertising you do. Just take shows in say June so you will have time to train and be ready. You possibly could get enough show deposits in advance to pay for your training. I have a friend on this forum that took Ronning's training in October and booked his first stage show this month for $1500.00 so you can make it with this training

Further, I would suggest that you get your hands on a copy of 'The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism' by Ormond McGill available on Amazon.com and study it from cover to cover. You should also pick up every other course you can find on Stage Hypnosis as I have not yet found one good course that covers everything you need to know. Check 'Stage Hypnosis' on ebay and you will find a lot to get you started. If you would like a list not available on ebay PM me and I'll let you know.
Message: Posted by: magicman02 (Dec 11, 2003 02:45PM)
Martin and Joe,
I tried to send you guys private messages but I don't know if it went through or not, so I will just listed them here.

Martin: Are you a stage hypnotist? Also I was wondering if you can give my your friends name who attended Ronnings seminar. I have some questions that I would like to ask him?

Joe: The $165 insurance premimum, is that a monthly cost or a yearly cost? Also you have Nicholas George's course, how do you like it? Is it worth the investment?
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 11, 2003 04:49PM)
Magicman02

Yes your PM went through. I can answer on the insurance question. It is an annual premium running from April to April with no pro-rating. If you bought it now it would run until April and you would have to pay again then to renew.

I have PM'd my friend to make sure he had no problem with my giving out his name and if he says okay. I'll PM you with the information. I also suggested that he post to this thread directly if he chose to. I can't say when that will be as he was recently thrown into working full time and I don't know what his show schedule looks like.

I am not yet a Stage Hypnotist, I am currently studying. However, I am very familiar with Ronnings program and I am seriously considering going to his training in April. I have a feeling I will be a Stage Hypnotist soon as my wife is getting very adamant about just getting out there and doing as she hates her job.

I would also suggest that you go to Ronnings site and sign up for his test run if you haven't done so already as there is some helpful information in it. I would say that if you haven't gathered any information as yet about Stage Hypnosis that you concentrate on only getting Ronning material if that is who you plan to use for your personal training. That way you will have nothing to unlearn when you attend his three day course. As I said previously, his home study course is a good investment if you are going to take his in person training. It will give you a head start.

You will find in doing these shows that the induction is not the hardest part of it. First get them excited about coming up on your stage and Being The Stars Of The Show. Then make sure you have put together one fantastic set of routines to keep them laughing when you do your show. After all its all about entertainment. No funny, no money.

You need to remember also that this game is about add on streams of income. Everyone who was in your show or their family members will want a copy of the videotape that you took of the show. You do the math 15 X $25 extra. They will also want help from you so you sell them your CD for Smoking Cessation or Weight Loss etc. You can make more than just your fee doing this. More than they ever bought from you after your magic show.

There is a question that I haven't asked. Do you do a Stage show for your magic. If you do, you already have a lot of the skills you'll need for this. If you are just a close up finger flinger this will be a major change.

I hope this helps. If you have any specific questions feel free to post them here.
Message: Posted by: Stuart Cumberland (Dec 11, 2003 05:42PM)
Amir,

Geoff Ronning and I are good friends. I would HIGHLY recommend him and his course. He's a guy who books himself out the yin-yang, travels extensively and makes his living doing hypnosis shows.

He's the real deal.

He has an outstanding offer on his site. A test drive. Best of all, it's free.

If you have ANY interest in hypnosis, I highly recommend you check it out. After all, it's free. You can't lose.

Here's Geoff's link: [url=http://www.kickstartcart.com/app/aftrack.asp?AFID=84640&u=www.stagehypnosiscenter.com/magicreport.html%20]Geoff Ronning Stage Hypnosis Training[/url]

Tell him Blair sent ya.

Blair

FREE Newsletter:[url=http://www.1shoppingcart.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=34754]www.Mental-List.com[/url]
Message: Posted by: flourish dude (Dec 11, 2003 09:57PM)
I went to his past training and I came home today from my second paid gig. The past training was in Oct my first show was in November. Both shows where great I left his training fully equipped to do the shows. Two months later I have already made plus the investment. I have three more show but between Dec and Jan. I have bought all the learning courses out there and found his to be the most complete. Blair has a great tape also with his rapid induction. The first day of the training you put someone in trance without saying anything but two words.Way too cool! It is a total hands on you will be putting people in trace your first day.If you really want to learn how to do this then spend the money and go. I talk to people who went with me and all of them are doing great!
Message: Posted by: magicman02 (Dec 12, 2003 03:03AM)
Guys thanks for everything, I already subscribed for his test drive, I got all the information and it is great. I do close up magic right now, and some stage, so I do have experience. For some reason I thought I would like close up better and I still do, but I want to get into stage, because with stage you have everyone's attention (that can be more pressure, because if you mess up you don't mess up for couple people, but the whole audience). My brother and I are working on a twin mentalism act so we will be on the stage shortly.

Also I heard that most hypnotists work through agency and agents, is that true? So does that mean that they don't do a lot of their own marketing? Also my brother wants to get into hypnosis too, so I was wondering if it is it possible to have two hypnotists on stage doing one show, like a two person mind reading act? Is it safe because I have always seen hypnotists as solo performers?

Also Martin, if you plan to attend the seminar in April, I might see you there if I decide to go. (I might have prior engagements, but I really hope I don't, I want to get my training this year)

Thanks
Amir

p.s. a side note, once you are a hypnotist, is it possible to still be hypnotized by another hypnotist?
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 12, 2003 08:38AM)
Amir,

NO three-day wonder class is going to prepare you for a career as a stage hypnotist. Most of those classes are designed for people who already have a good, solid grounding in hypnosis and want to expand into performance work.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you get a professional certification as a hypnotherapist before doing such a class for several reasons:

After such a class you will know how to handle any unforseen, unpleasant reactions your volunteers may produce - and they WILL happen.

You will have a much better understanding of HOW to AVOID the occurrance of such abreactions.

You will be able to produce tapes and CD's for back of the room sales (stress reduction, smoking cessation, weight relief, etc).

You will have a MUCH better shot at getting coverage on insurance as even Clowns of the USA requires some sort of certification for insurance these days.

And, let's face it, during the slack periods that ANY pro has, it's nice to be able to book a therapeutic session or two to supplement your income!

But PLEASE don't rely on a 3-Day class and go out and try to be a professional stage hypnotist. Would you even consider doing such a thing with magic?

It doesn't make sense, frankly.

For training, try http://www.ngh.net for the National Guild of Hypnotists. If you are in the DC/Maryland area, look up Marcia Proctor. She's fantastic - and a good friend - as well as a top trainer for two professional hypnosis organizations and teaches the Certification course at Garrett College.

Hope this helps!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 12, 2003 01:27PM)
Lee:

I would usually agree with you Lee, except in the case of Geoffrey Ronnings Training. Geoffrey is a NGH Certified Trainer. His training is intensive and hands on. Students in the class practice the inductions on each other and are learning not just being lectured to. Geoffrey also covers things like abreaction, what to do about it and how to spot it before it becomes a problem for your show. Geoffrey doesn't send you off to be an immediate hypnotist, he says your own show in two months after crafting and practicing what you have learned. If you have evidence about Geoffrey to the contrary I would be most interested in hearing about it.

Amir:

Stage Hypnotist book themselves as well as us agents. The busy ones wind up using agents more and more because they have less and less time for marketing. This is the same for any entertainer.

It is possible to perform with two hypnotists, it would just be how you worded your instructions. Also, having an assistant is always good as they can see the person who is faking it and disrupting your show when you have your back turned. They let you know who and you dismiss them. You could also both learn to do the show and switch off jobs between Hypnotist and Assistant from one show to the next.

I don't quite know what you mean by prior engagements, if you have a show that's one thing, but if you are just waiting to see if someone books that weekend that is something else. If you really want to do this you block off the dates for the training and register and go, otherwise you may never do it. Like I said earlier you could get his home study version and take the $500 certificate and apply it toward your in person training letting you get a head start. You and your brother would simply do the one on one exercises that are in the training practicing on each other.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 12, 2003 02:26PM)
Martin,

I have to admit that I am more than somewhat skeptical about any 3-day course that purports to take anyone and turn them into a stage hypnotist, regardless of who is teaching the class.

It is a truism that repetition is the key to mastering something - but that repetition has to be correct or all you do is ingrain bad habits.

Not to mention that retention of information is most often done on technical subjects (which hypnosis most definitely IS) does not last after single, or even two or three exposures or attempts.

Given the VAST variety of responses someone can get from a stage hypnosis volunteer group, extensive training in suggestion formulation, trance management and abreaction handling is essential.

In my professional opinion, from over 30 years in the business, I simply cannot believe that ANY training can afford someone that kind of experience, confidence and knowledge in three short days (or even three long days).

While I laud his efforts in making sure the students receive hands-on experience and the fact that he covers abreaction, one simply cannot cover such a broad and serious topic in a 3-day weekend and still do all of the other things a stage hypnosis course should also cover.

While it's possible that I may be incorrect, I would be very surprised.

In fact, I just called the NGH and their comment is that the course is NOT authorized by the NGH in any way. In fact, the NGH does not offer a certification for stage hypnotists of any kind at this time and that their certification course is in excess of 150 classroom hours.

No way that's happening on a three-day weekend! ;)

Sorry, but it's NOT an NGH course, nor it it endorsed BY the NGH as you seem to imply. (If I misread you on that, I apologize, of course)

While Mr. Ronning is undoubtedly a sterling fellow and an excellent instructor, this course is not an NGH approved educational vehicle.

Sorry to disagree, no flames intended to either you or Mr. Ronning. But I stand by what I said to Amir - get a full certification first. Doing so will allow you to better absorb and appreciate the materials in Mr. Ronning's course - or any other course on hypnosis, for that matter.

One does not build a roof for a house without first building the foundation. Stage hypnosis is an advanced part of the art. Without a frame of reference and some serious background in the application of hypnosis in general, a stage course of this kind will not be nearly as effective for the student as one that first requires prior training in hypnosis.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Dec 12, 2003 03:09PM)
Until Lee came on and shared his wisdom, I thought this was one of the more irresponsible threads I've read here in a long time. To even suggest someone should start booking shows now so that they have them lined up for when the finish a three day course a few months down the road is ludicrous. I even considered going to the Café hosts and encouraging them to pull this thread as I feel it is so out of line and dangerous.

Folks, this isn't magic tricks, though I know that hyp shows can be done that way. Even so, the expectations of audience members may still lead to the same kinds of problems that can potentially occur in a "real" hypnosis presentation.

You mention that Mr. Ronning is a member of the NGH. How do they feel about his doing an "intensive" three day training and then setting his pupils loose to perform? I'd be very curious to know. Certainly the ASCH (American Society for Clinical Hypnosis)wouldn't approve of this practice. Nor would the majority of well trained hypnotherapists of my acquaintence.

Also, can you imagine someone marketing a three day intensive course in mentalism or magic, with the promise that two months after completion you will be ready to do your own stage show? To people with no experience at all? I like to think that most of the members at the Café would be up in arms if someone were to market such a program. And neither mentalism or magic has the inherent risks of a hyp show.

Please stop encouraging such a potentially dangerous agenda. I don't care who is doing the training, how experienced or well trained they are or what they cover in the course. This is plain wrong headed and like Lee, I have to wonder about any trainer who would encourage the practices being suggested in this thread.

Dr. Bill Cushman
Message: Posted by: Stuart Cumberland (Dec 12, 2003 03:20PM)
Lee,

How much time should a stage hypnosis course take to fully cover everything? If three days can't, how about five? Ten?...

How do you know Geoff won't/can't cover it all? Have you attended his course?

No bait. No trap. I'm just EXCEPTIONALLY curious as to how you come to those conclusions?

Ormond McGill taught stage hypnosis courses with Jerry Valley, I believe. I wonder what he would have thought knowing that the NGH did not support/endorse that? I believe they were three day courses as well... and the only qualification was cash.

I enjoyed your roof/foundation analogy. Here's one for you... the NGH was founded by... stage hypnotists.

Something to think about, eh? :)

Blair
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 12, 2003 03:47PM)
I apologize if feathers have been ruffled here. No such outcome was ever intended. Never have I suggested in this thread or any other that someone should do a three day training and go out the next day and start doing shows. I suggested that if Amir was going to take his training that he get Geoffrey's home study course and spend the next four months studying it before the three day training. I also suggested that he get Ormond McGill's Book. I'll tell you now, though there are people out there who have taken these weekend trainings and are out working and making happy audiences.

As to the lack of responsiblity on providing these trainings and the Governing bodies not approving. Jerry Valley's book is for sale in the NGH store and Jerry Valley and Ormond McGill conduct the same type of training for Stage Hypnotists.

No we magicians don't think these are just tricks. Its not something that you buy this morning and put in your show tonite. I bought Professional Stage Hypnosis for Magicians By Ormond McGill back in 1975 when it first came, so it's not something I woke up one morning this year and thought it would be great to do. You have to design your show, memorize your pretalk and inductions and practice your show and inductions before you ever go out and present it in person. I would also say that the six months until June that I suggested includes enough time to get your Hypnotherapy Certification as most that I have seen say one to two months.

I apologize if I have upset you Dr. Cushman. Lee knows that I try only to be polite on this forum. I don't believe that I am being irresponsible though. I have posted in many threads on this topic and I endeavor to give the best advice I can from the knowledge I have. I still believe it is better than what I used to read on here which was an attitude of stay away when people inquired about becoming a Stage Hypnotist.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 12, 2003 03:50PM)
I would agree with a lot of what has been said by Lee. I would actually go further and add that a course in hypnotherapy will not prepare you for what can go wrong in a stage context either!

Although related they are different disciplines with different objectives. The only similarity is that they both utilise hypnosis.

This really is a tough question to answer because at one time both myself and Lee had to start and gain experience and my guess is that Lee like myself had to go through that learning curve that was risky even with training.(looking back now Im not sure I would've done it knowing the possible risks especially at the begining)

Hypnotherapists are not the best either to get good solid info from or a balanced view.

Many experienced stage hypnotists are far more competent than hypnotherapists utilizing trance states. Many anti hypnotherapists actually envy successful stage hypnotists secretly because of their skill on stage. That becomes evident if you take time to talk to them and find out what their real objections are. More than often they are unfounded and crumble under questioning. And more than often in private they will agree with you. Whenever I attended hypnosis courses teaching theraputic techniques I was swarmed by the students when asked to demonstrate some stage techniques. I could've started a cult. Its this recognition by the general public that many hypnotherapists don't like.

Now I am a certified hypnotherapist(since 1992)and have numerous certifications and have attended many workshops. I have also studied and trained extensively in NLP. With some of top people, have practiced for more than 12 years and gained my first hypnosis certification in 1988. All I can say is it also works in reverse. I started as a stage hypnotist and this early experience allowed me to be a much better therapist/coach/trainer. One of the most famous trainers of Medical doctors in the US "David Elmen" started off as a stage hypnotist!

I am only posting this to give a balanced view. I don't like these three day wonder courses either but you have to start somewhere. One of the reasons I hate them is because of the sheer numbers of them mushrooming all over the place. This in itself increases the liklihood of problems occurring. It also saturates the market and kills off much of the mystery and entertainment value of the art.

Some will make the jump into becoming professional stage hypnotists albeit its a very risky take off even with further hypnotherapy training. Not everyone is cut out to do it either so don't let the marketing hype make you beleive that you will automatically become a professional stage hypnotist. Ive seen many who work for peanuts and couldn't be described as professional.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 12, 2003 06:03PM)
The first message in this thread asked why, if hypnosis is so popular, isn't everyone doing it?

Looking at the incredible amount of interest here at the Café,it seems that everyone IS trying to do it.

And, based on what I've seen, most of them are doing it badly. It used to be that magic was the only performing art where you'd always find a few people who thought that how well one performed the Elmsley Count was a measure of his talent.

Now, it seems that learning the so-called secrets of stage hypnotists is the magic ticket to success.

But is it possible to do this in just three days??

Three days? If you want to know how and why it works and what you have to do the get volunteers from the audience to follow your "hypnotic" suggestions; if that's all you are looking for, why waste three days?
I could teach you how that stuff works in about three hours. I could even throw in a few sure-fire gags and tell you which of the standard hyp routines (that everyone does) are most hilarious.

THAT'S what you need to know, because the success of a stage hypnosis show is rated by the laughs it gets. If the audience is screaming and rolling around on the floor laughing at their friends or co-workers as they pretend to be strippers, or Elvis, or victims of an invisible pinch on the butt - they obviously are having the time of their lives.

And the best part is that even the rankest amateur can get this kind of reaction from an audience, and he doesn't even have to understand why these sure-fire routines are considered to be funny. It's the volunteers, you see, who make the show.

Unfortunately, they are also the ones who, ultimately, may break it for you.

If you have no previous experience as an entertainer, you're are not going to become one in three days.

If you have no previous training in hypnosis, I wouldn't worry about it.

Stage hypnosis has very little in common with the variety practiced by clinicians - a fact that more than a few technically skilled hypnotherapists have discovered when they ill-advisedly agreed to perform in public before an audience of rowdy fun-seekers.

(If you really want to sound like you know the biz, NEVER refer to your act as a hypnosis show. It's called a 'Hyp Act' as in "I been giggin' the hyp act and polishing my chops."

Do NOT, however, use this phraseology if you suspect there may be a professional in the room, or that the old guy sitting in the corner with his back to you might be Ormond McGill.) But, as I said, it's easy to do a successful hypnosis show - about half of the time.

If, on the other hand, you want to learn what to do on the night when no one responds the way you thought they were supposed to, or if you want to learn the tricks and techniques of being an entertainer and a ringmaster at the same time, how does a few years sound?

Now, if you want to be a SUCCESSFUL entertainer, one of the five-percent or so who are able to make a living in show business - or maybe even become a member of the one percent who make a GOOD living at it - that might take another five or ten years.

Don't let yourself be seduced by the same misconception that has almost completely trivialized the art of magic in the eyes of many - the idea that skill or talent can be BOUGHT in a magic shop or at a seminar. If too many "performers" start believing that, it won't be long that they will succeed only in trivializing hypnosis as well.

Geoff Ronning, by the way, is a highly skilled hypnotist, mentalist AND entertainer. He is not misrepresenting anything when he says that you can learn what you need for a successful show in just three days of intensive training. I'm sure that his seminar is perfect for the experienced performer who wants to add hypnosis to his repertoire.

I haven't even touched on the potential hazards, legal and otherwise, which are a minefield that shouldn't be crossed if you are wearing a blindfold.

Bill and Lee have said pretty much all that needs to be said about that.

So as you take a deeep breath and count backwards from twenty down to one, your eyelids gently closing and slowly becoming heavy as lead - as you find yourself drifting into that wonderful space where the only thing you know is the sound of my voice...as you drift deeper and deeper into sleep knowing that you will not be embarrassed in any way - that nothing will happen that will be anything but pleasant, nor will you do anything that is against your wishes. And as we reach number one, you are going deeply asleep, feeling safe and secure, knowing that my voice is now yours. Sleep...now s**t your pants.

Now THAT'S entertainment!

Best-

Bob Cassidy
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Dec 12, 2003 06:04PM)
I read too fast through Lee's last post and missed that he had contacted the NGH and discovered that they didn't endorse Geoff's seminar nor offer any certification for stage hypnosis. Also, the requirements of 150 + classroom hours for their certification. Despite Blairs information that the NGH was started by stage hypnotists, this is where they are now and I imagine they have some pretty good reasons. As a matter of fact, that a group started by stage hypnotists has taken the positions that the NGH currently holds is telling in itself.

Blair, as I indicated in my PM to you, it wasn't you that upset me. It is the overall direction of the thread and the suggestions (pardon the pun) given to a newcomer - "I absolutely have no background in hypnosis, I have never hypnotized anyone in my life." -that I find grossly irresponsible. Despite seeming to suggest (there I go again!) that Geoff's three day seminar is sufficient, the main information that I got from your posts is that Geoff has great qualifications. I'm sorry if I upset YOU, as the only concern I have of Geoff's qualifications is if he actually is supporting three day seminars as sufficient, a fact that you suggested in your PM to me is not wholly accurate.

Shrink makes some good points but I can't agree with everything he says. Only the things that agree with what I said! Seriously, some of what he posted that I found questionable are as folows:

"Many experienced stage hypnotists are far more competent than hypnotherapists utilizing trance states." This is an opinion, not a fact and if it is, I'd like to see some documentation. I'm sure that SOME stage hypnotists are more competent ("far" is another opinion that in and of itself, doesn't tell us much of value) than SOME hypnotherapists but I'd like to know where "many" comes from.

"Many anti hypnotherapists actually envy successful stage hypnotists secretly because of their skill on stage." This again is anecdotal information at best and comes off as biased particularly when Shrink next says, "That becomes evident if you take time to talk to them and find out what their real objections are. More than often they are unfounded and crumble under questioning. And more than often in private they will agree with you. Whenever I attended hypnosis courses teaching theraputic techniques I was swarmed by the students when asked to demonstrate some stage techniques. I could've started a cult. Its this recognition by the general public that many hypnotherapists don't like." Again, anecdotal at best and me thinks Shrink may have a tendency to exaggerate. Not to mention being unaware of the impact of his own biases (no offense meant Shrink. I hope you know that I think you are a good guy, but this has been my experience in reading your MANY posts and corresponding with you). And what the heck is an "anti-hypnotherapist?"

You yourself, Shrink say, "Hypnothrerapists are not the best either to get good solid info from or a balanced view," shortly before informing us that you have been a certified hypnotherapist since 1992! Hmmm....: )

Seriously (again), I think what Shrink meant is that hypnotherapists are not the best sources for solid info on stage hypnosis. This is unquestionably so. Please note my example that I would be, though not equally, worried about a three day training course purporting to to be sufficient to prepare a mentalist or magician to take to the stage. My point being that I don't think three days is enough to train someone to be ready to take the stage, no matter what the discipline is. And that holds, IMHO, even if the student is skillful in the discipline but doesn't have any training or experience in stage performance.

The best answer to this, in my opinion, is certification in hypnotherapy with at least as much time as required by the NGH and also including supervised practice of at least 40 hours as required by the ASCH, COMBINED with training in stage hypnosis. Like I said in the last paragraph, I really have trouble buying that three days would be enough but perhaps with a good background it would be a starting place.

Bill

:bigsmile: :bigsmile:

Phew, I took so long to post my last message, that Bob snuck in there with his usual style and flair. Not to mention getting quickly to the heart of the matter. While I suspect that he might not agree with my suggestion (my bias) that the best solution is a combination of training in stage hypnosis, stage work and hypnotherapy, we seem to be on the same page about expecting to be sufficiently trained to take the stage in three days. Blair asked Lee how long is enough and I think Bob answered!
Message: Posted by: bevbevvybev (Dec 12, 2003 07:15PM)
Bob, I can make you ***** your pants with only a post it note, even though your way was cool too

Bill, look into my eyes, you will send me your entire mentalist book collecton and everything you have ever written before the 25th

Etc

:comply:
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 12, 2003 07:39PM)
I agree with your point, Bill. that performance technique, stage hypnosis, and hypnotherapy are all essential areas of study for the performer. When someone gets on a stage and claims,expicitly or implicitly to have expertise in any field, he or she really ought to learn something about it, not just what's in the latest "How to Score Big Bucks as a Professional ____________" e-book,cd or dvd.

What would you think of a hypnotist who, when asked what he thought of Erickson's contributions, replied with "It's important to understand that he discovered America hundreds of years before Columbus, and it's about time the contributions of the Vikings were fully acknowledged. But let's get back to hypnosis."

. . .Or the "mentalist" who knows nothing of current research in parapsychology, but undauntingly proceeds to "pepper his patter" with 'insiders' jargon - words like 'mental telepathy,' 'clairvoyance,' and, of course, the old favorite 'extra sensory perception,' convinced that the audience will be dazzled by his obvious expertise - even though all he knows about psi is that it is something he alway does when he reads a column by Jamie Ian Swiss. ("How can Swiss," he wonders, "fail to realize that mentalism is an inherently entertaining form of mystery entertainment, whose primary appeal is to intelligent audiences? Everyone knows that Psi!")

There is no such thing as an effect or premise that is inherently entertaining (or commercial, for that matter, but that was a different thread, wasn't it.)

I overheard Dr Bob hustling his infamous "Power Fiddling Course" last week. Here's the gist of the pitch he uses -

"In just three days you will learn all you need to know about a violin's acoustical properties and the mechanics involved in producing its tones. You'll even know learn the secrets of the shellac and woods used by master violin makers. Bet you didn't know that country fiddlers cheat the double stops by filing down the bridge - and that's why they don'tspicatto. You'll even learn what that means and why no spitoon is involved! That's the kind of stuff most people have to go to Julliard to learn. Forget that. Take my "Power Fiddling Course" tomorrow and next week you'll be king of the Internet fiddle forum! Guaranteed!

"Oh, you wanted to learn how to make music? In three days? Buy a Discman, dude, and fake it on an the air fiddle I'm going to give you as a special bonus!"

Best-

Bob

(BTW- If you'd like to learn how Doctor Bob was legimately proclaimed "Billet King of Moldavia," read the front page article at the "new" http://www.mastermindreader.com/cd)
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 12, 2003 07:51PM)
Okay, but a good pretalk that gets them running up to volunteer. A well crafted modified Dave Elman Induction and a lot of fun skits will still get you a well received Hyp Act.

BTW, Milton Erickson was the psychiatrist that brought us modern hypnotherapy. But since Stage Hypnotism isn't about therapy what is your point. Grinder and Bandler brought us NLP. There seems to be a connection trying to be made between those who take three day trainings and people who haven't done any other research or reading on the subject. This is a far reach for a conclusion on this matter
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 12, 2003 09:27PM)
Martin-

Two posts back I wrote:
_________________________________________________
>>>Geoff Ronning, by the way, is a highly skilled hypnotist, mentalist AND entertainer. He is not misrepresenting anything when he says that you can learn what you need for a successful show in just three days of intensive training. I'm sure that his seminar is perfect for the experienced performer who wants to add hypnosis to his repertoire.<<<
_____________________________________________
Looking over your posts I can't see anything with which I really disagree.

You said in your last post that:

>>>There seems to be a connection trying to be made between those who take three day training and people who haven't done any other research or reading on the subject. This is a far reach for a conclusion on this matter<<<

Try as I might, I can't see where I said that the only ones who attend three day seminars are those who haven't done prior reading or research. What I did imply was that without performing skills, no one should be led to believe that they are going to come out of a 3 day seminar magically transformed into a talented and, dare I say, original, stage hypnotist.

I sure didn't fool you with my little Erickson Joke! I did think the Fiddle Forum bit was pretty funny, though.

:dancing:

Best-

Bob
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 12, 2003 10:37PM)
Sorry Bob:

I must have read your post wrong. After rereading your post, you're right you didn't. I guess I'm still a little touchy from my old newsgroup days.

Original Hypnotist - isn't that an oxymoron =-)
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 13, 2003 07:32AM)
Ok Bill: An anti-hypnotherapist (I know its my term) is someone who rants on that stage hypnosis should be banned completely. The main reasons (my personal experience) is they are envious of the stage hypnotists skill and recognition by the general public.

I would have at least two or three people come back stage after most shows asking me to do therapy with them. I always tried to refer them to a local hypnotherapist but they always insisted they wanted to work with me. Back then I just wasn't interested. I was earning around £4000 for a two hour show in theatres and around £600 for one hour in a club or University.

I mention my various Certifications and related experience to assure you that my theraputic skills are higher than many if not most of the local hypnotherapists.

I agree that three days is not enough training. I also said in my previous post that even with all the training available some people are not cut out to be successful stage hypnotists. (or even hypnotherapist for that matter)

The only point I was making is that you have to start somewhere. The other point was that all these stage courses e-books appearing from everywhere will cause many problems for stage hypnosis. Who knows, it might be the start of problems we experienced in the UK.

I agree. I hate these three day pack them in courses. The thing is most successful stage hypnotists started off with only a little training knowledge to start with and gained more as they went on. As Bob rightly states in his above post it takes years to develop.

The problems are going to come along now because of the popularity and willingness of many to sell these courses to the general public. I agree with you on most counts. However getting the thread pulled because of the dangers etc. is a bit to much.

And yes many of my experiences are incidental but I have testimonials if you want to look at them...
Message: Posted by: jlibby (Dec 13, 2003 10:26AM)
I just want to throw in a couple of points here. First, Geoff does encourage people interested in his training to read, view, and/or listen to everything they can get their hands on regarding hypnosis.

Also, it appears his primary marketing is to people like magicians, DJs, and clowns. In other words, people who already have performance and public speaking skills.

It appears that a few people posting here are rather put out with Geoff for marketing a three day training. Yet, Blair mentions that Ormond McGill and Jerry Valley have done three day trainings. Horrors! Why isn't anybody going on a rant about that?

I'm not trying to start a flame war, folks, I'm really not. But come on, sauce for the goose...

See ya!
Joe L.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 13, 2003 10:56AM)
Joe,

I hope you aren't reading my posts that way. Go back to the first post in the thread whers Amir began:


[quote]

Hi guys,
I want to get into hypnosis, but I absolutely have no background in hypnosis, I have never hypnotized anyone in my life. But I do know that any skill that someone else is doing can be learned. I didn't know jack squat about magic 4 years ago and I know a lot now and I am a semi-pro. When I saw my first show when I was in high school. I thought it was all staged and stooges, but I know it isn't.

I want to attend Geoffery Ronnings training in Vegas. He basically says that in three intense days he can teach you everything about hypnosis that you can walk out and do a full show that you are proud of in a month or two.
[/quote]

That's essentially what I'm responding to. That and the Power Fiddling Seminar.

Best-

Bob
Message: Posted by: jlibby (Dec 13, 2003 11:27AM)
Indeed, Dr. Bob, I think you and I are on the same page. In fact, my B.A. is in theatre, and I have considerable experience as an actor and variety performer. So I'd venture to say you are correct when you say Geoff's training is perfect for experienced performers.

Now, for someone who's never gotten on stage before, I'm sure they'd still learn a lot at Geoff's training, but it's not likely they'll be ready to do a show a few weeks afterwards.

I'm all into Power Fiddling. How can I register for the seminar? :wavey:

See ya!
Joe L.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 13, 2003 11:54AM)
I don't think its likely but I do think some would be able to even without any performing experience.

The quality of the show would be another matter. But may be enough to get you by if you had enough B****.

Many have started with less (which I don't recommend).
Message: Posted by: Dr Omni (Dec 13, 2003 12:01PM)
I attended Geoff and Wendy Ronning's seminar in Seattle last year and I can confirm that it is first-rate. I recommend it highly. The style they teach is very contemporary, so that you are connecting with today's younger audiences, where the market is. This is an important point - the culture of a person born circa 1985 is very different from one born circa 1950, and a commercially successful stage hypnosis act has to recognise that fact (whether one likes it or not). They are very strong on the marketing aspect, too. Their website is http://www.stagehypnosiscenter.com

On the question of how much preparation a person needs to become a capable stage hypnotist, it's a tricky one to answer. You do have to start somewhere, and every stage hypnotist working today did have a first show when they knew a lot less than they do now. There is a huge amount a person *can* learn about hypnosis in general, stage hypnosis in particular, stagecraft, comedy, from reading, observing other performers, attending seminars and so on. You have to write and memorise an excellent script, have a stock of one-liners, a good CD with sound effects and music, and maybe props if you want them. You can do a lot of work yourself to be well-prepared. I think you have to look on a three-day seminar as merely one part of that process of development. You have to be as well prepared as possible for your first few shows, but only through experience in performing do you become really good.

Unlike many other occupations, there is no formal training process for stage hypnosis in which an apprenctice can work his way up to become a master. You are expected to come fully formed, like Venus from the head of Zeus. (And that's not a metaphor I'd recommend using with an audience born in 1985.)
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Dec 13, 2003 04:00PM)
Let me address some issues one at a time. First, to Shrink. While trying to make some of my points about what you said that I agreed with, I get the sense that what I disagreed with was what stuck with you. To me, the things that we agreed on are the most important. I even tried to put smiley faces by my disagreements to keep things lighter but my ignorance on how to do this led to their ending up at the bottom of my post.

Let me now address the post you addressed to me. First, "anti-hypnotherapist" is a very misleading term if indeed you mean "someone who rants on that stage hypnosis should be banned completely." It sounds like it is meant to mean someone who is against hypnotherapy, not hyp acts (thank you Bob). Someone who believes stage hypnosis should be banned would be considered "anti-stage hypnosis." Very confusing.

As for hypnotherapists who do object to stage hypnosis, my experience with those who've shared their objections with me, is that it is because they see it as potentially harmful and trivializing something that is meant to be used for healing. I've never gotten the sense that they envy the skill or attention of a stage hypnotist (though I'm sure there are some who do), only that they don't believe hypnosis should be used this way in the first place. By the way, I don't necessarily agree with this stance. I see the hyp act and therapuetic hypnosis as two different things entirely. At least they should be.

Brian, not to put you down in any way, but the amount of money you make or the fact that people approach you after shows is not germane to this discussion. Nor do these facts and your certifications offer any assurance whatsoever that your, "theraputic skills are higher than many if not most of the local hypnotherapists." Also, offering to share your testimonials is not going to shore up your "incidental" (I believe you meant "anecdotal") stories, but merely let me know how you are percieved as a stage hypnotist. Again, this isn't what is important in this thread.

Finally, I agree with every other thing you said in the post I'm referencing except one comment, "However getting the thread pulled because of the dangers etc is a bit to much." Perhaps you misunderstood. I didn't mean that the post should be pulled because stage hypnosis is dangerous. I said this because of all the advice to Amir, who it has been pointed out by both Bob and myself said he has NO experience in hypnosis of any kind, suggesting that a three day course will be sufficient training to do a hyp act. This is what I saw as irresponsible.

And it seems like several people, including you (which enhances my respect for you all the more) agree with this point. The same goes for those who saw what I was saying as an attack on Geoff Ronning; that is not what this is about at all. Jlibby, that is why no one is objecting to Valley and McGill. One more time, it is about the negligent advice to Amir. The NEGLIGENT advice, not all of the advice. In the beginning, a great deal of the advice was negligent in my opinion, given Amir's level, or lack thereof, of experience with hypnosis. I like how Dr. Omni put it, "I think you have to look on a three-day seminar as merely one part of that process of development." Dr. O, thank you for expressing this so succintly. I suspect you are an excellent communicator.

I hope between the efforts of Lee, myself, Bob, Martin, Shrink, JLibby and Dr. Omni, that this thread is now more balanced. It seems to me that this is the case and I no longer am as concerned as I was before, nor do I feel the thread needs to be pulled. Good work, gentleman.

Bill
Message: Posted by: jlibby (Dec 13, 2003 05:12PM)
Bill, I appreciate your clarification. I misinterpreted your concerns, and for that I apologize.

See ya!
Joe L.
Message: Posted by: magicman02 (Dec 13, 2003 11:35PM)
I just wanted ask a simple question, but it seems like I started a war.

First of all, I plan to attend Mr. Ronning's training because I believe it will be a good investment. I know that his seminar will teach me a lot about hypnosis, even if I don't have any prior training. But it wouldn't be the end of my training.

Four years ago I didn't know jack**** about magic! Absolutely Nothing! I didn't know what a double lift was, what a break was, who Dai Vernon was or anything else. But today I have learned a lot and I have a lot more experience. So what I am saying is that nobody is born a magician, a hypnotist, a musician, a doctor, a lawyer or whatever else. People have to learn these skills; everyone has to start somewhere. David Copperfield had to start somewhere, Seigfried and Roy, Lance Burton, Joel Bauer, Paul Daniels, Russ Peak, Banachek, and everyone else. They all had to get their feet wet.

Also, I am not saying that I am going to go get this training and book huge shows and start making a large of money in my first year, that isn't realistic. But I will attempt to do as many shows I can handle. Yes, I can buy a lot of more books, videos, and CDs on hypnosis (and I will buy what I need to learn) but if I buy all these things I will actually feel like I will never be ready and will always feel like I need more knowledge, then I will never actually take action and go out there and perform. I will always be waiting for my act or show to "be perfect" (that is so unrealistic, nothing in life is perfect) rather then have it be just good enough to perform.

By the way the Internet is a great tool for us magicians. Chat rooms like this allows entertainers all around the world to share information and help each other out. This wasn't possible 10 or 15 years ago. But to me it seems like sometimes that the pros (Now I am not saying that this is everyone or all the pros, I lot of them do give really good information, I am just talking a very select few) are scared of the up and coming people who want to turn pro or semi-pro so they try to give them advice that scares them of not going pro. I actually had someone tell me that one time, (it wasn't someone on this board, it was a pro I met in person). He said going pro or semi-pro is hard, you are not good enough and never will be. (He was a jerk, and I actually think he was jealous of me for some reason). I know going pro will be really hard, because you are running your own business. It is extremely challenging to start your own business of any kind. It you will fail a lot more then you will succeed, but you will be doing something that most people are afraid to do. (7/10 people want to start their own business but are scared too.)

So I just wanted to say that thanks for all the advice you guys are giving me, but I have to go out there and do this stuff myself, experience it myself and yes I will probably fail a lot in the start, but I will get back up, learn from my mistakes and go at it again. That is how life works, you have to go out there get the knowledge, take action, and be persistence, that is the secret to success in anything!
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 14, 2003 12:15AM)
Amir:

Great Fireworks display. Sorry our answers were so frustrating.

1) You didn't start a war. This was a Mommy and Daddy squabble over what was best for junior. After Mommy and Daddy finish squabbling, what comes out is a balanced view. What you call a war was actually very good and what I would like to see more of on this forum. A free fall of positions that disseminates information that we can all benefit from.

2) You will learn a lot from Ronning in his seminar. But all of the free stuff has a real slant toward getting you to buy his seminar. I have been to three day seminars and you leave more behind than you take with you. That is why you should get his Home Study Course now so that you have the three day seminar to attend over and over and over and over and over. Sorry, it was for emphasis. You cannot absorb and retain everything you need to know to be a Stage Hypnotist in 3 days no matter how good the trainer is.

3) You will never finish learning. You will need to get more than just one trainer's viewpoint. There is a lot of information available and yes it can seem overwhelming. This is not like when you learned magic, it is a lot more like the Lawyer or Doctor. You won't generally do any damage to anyone by doing a bad false shuffle (unless you're doing some cards as weapons moves). However, if you don't know what you are doing as a stage hypnotist you could injure someone.

4) I don't think the pro was jealous of you. I think his ploy probably worked. You were given the necessary kick in the pants to say I'll show you, and you did. It is far too easy to just say they don't want you to give them competition but what they really want is good quality competition. Not some hacker making it bad for everyone else.

Well I wish you luck. I've got 600 pages of the New Encyclopedia of Hypnotism to read. Then I need to memorize the Modified Dave Elman induction I got from Mike Lee. Then I need to work at tweaking my Pre-Talk so they really are hyped up and want to come volunteer. Then I need to work on my suggestion phrasing for my really funny routines that will make my show a hilarious hit. Then I'll have to work on collecting and building my marketing list for getting bookings for my show. I also have to squeeze in some time to record my CD for back of room sales. I sure am glad I've collected the information to help me do all these various tasks.

I think you get the idea. It's more than I want to be a Stage Hypnotist. A lot more. We're here if you need more imput.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 14, 2003 05:42AM)
Bill:

Yes I agree my term "ant-hypnotherapist" is confusing. I could ahve written hypnotherapists who are anti-stage hypnotists. But hey I'm getting lazy with posts, especially on a Saturday night!

My experience with Hypnotherapists is that they claim that hypnosis is just for healing but, when you get them privately you find that their objections crumble. Not only that many actually admire what you do(they wouldn't admit this publicly). Again this is just my experience but one of the reasons they so violently oppose (apart from envy) is because they want to distance themselves from the negative publicity and attention stage hypnosis gets in this country from a few Medical Doctors. Also the associations they belong to have the same abreactions towards stage hypnosis because of the above reasons.

Talking about testimonials they were not for shows but trainings and personal breakthough sessions (kind of a cross between therapy and coaching). I don't do stage hypnosis shows anymore. And yes you will find the majority of local Hypnotherapists have very basic skills they appear in yellow pages for a year then disappear.

And past money made, was only to suggest when it come to creating a professional or commercial stage show I know what I am talking about.

I guess also the idea of pulling the thread pressed some of my old buttons associated with "anti-hypnotherapists" (hypnotherpapist who are anti-stagehypnotists)....

:wow:

Now I'm gonna relax in a dark room...and thanks for the gramerr leson.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 14, 2003 04:50PM)
Magicman02-

You didn't start a war - I think it was one of the better discussion threads I've ever seen - nobody flamed and no one got flamed out. We actually managed to have a fairly intelligent and and somewhat in depth discussion. And someone of us learned more about each other and made new friends in the process. What more could you ask for?

Your last post showed a depth of thinking and maturity about the matter that shows you may well have what it takes to achieve your goals. And, as Martin notes, there are those who will help when the seeker is sincere in his quest, as I now believe you to be. I mean, look at me, thirty-five years ago I, too, didn't know jack s***t about anything. Now I know jack s***t about about most everything!

Best=

Bob Cassidy
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Dec 17, 2003 04:51PM)
The Power Fiddling Course really has me intrigued. I've booked myself in Carnegie Hall in January, and I'm thinking it might be a good idea to learn how to play that darned violin now :P

Seriously, I know several successful stage hypnotists who learned in these short courses. I'm sure that they probably studied well beyond the initial course, but clearly there is a place for these kinds of programs. I also know one very successful performer who booked his first shows before having taken the class. I don't recommend it, but it did work for him.

As to the question of "why isn't everybody doing it?"--Basically, they are. This has been the case for several years now. In my opinion, the market is fairly close to saturation.

For those of you considering hypnosis, do not fall into the trap of thinking of it as your automatic ticket to the big time. If you apply yourself and have talent I am sure you can still do well, but it will take work, just like any other branch of showbiz. I hear people all the time who say "Once I learn hypnotism, I'll get my stuff to the agents and start working the college market heavily." I can promise you that the agents in that field have a stack of materials several feet high from all the hypnotist feeding the same delusion. I also hear people say "but I can make so much more at hypnosis than I can at magic." There is some truth to this, although as more and more people start doing hypnosis (and the numbers are legion already) there will be downward pressure on the prices you can get. Still, what that statment tells me most is that the speaker needs to rethink the way he or she markets his magic.

I am not trying to discourage anybody from learning hypnosis. It's a great thing, and I think the study of it can help performers in other areas besides just doing hyp shows. It's just that every few years a new bandwagon comes along that magicians hop aboard, often thinking "If I only could do this show, or work this venue, I could make it as a pro." I've seen this happen with cruise ships, trade shows, and theme park shows. The unfortunate thing is that by the time most magicians hop on the bandwagon the market is already saturated and they're no longer a novelty. Right now hypnosis is that bandwagon. Some who try it will make it, but it will be a very small minority. Sorry, but that's the way showbiz works.

The very best reason to learn hypnosis, in my opinion, is because you want to find out if it's the right fit for you. Most people I know who achieve real success do so in large measure because their performance is an extention of who they are as a human being. Learning to express yourself as an artist is generally a better approach than following the latest trend, although both approaches have their merits.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 17, 2003 05:18PM)
Hi Chris:

I agree with you from the standpoint of what you are saying, there is probably alot of people getting on the hypnosis bandwagon. But it is still a big leap from doing the training to jumping out there and actually doing the show. I see the high numbers of those doing the training as with any other group. Lot's of people have bought those late night make it rich in real estate courese spending much the same investment as these training courses. Yet you can go on ebay and pick them up for cheap or find them collecting dust on shelves.

For every 1000 magicians saying pick a card, very few are out there really performing and making money. I don't see the deluge of new hypnotists as being any different. The training we don't have to be concerned about, its the ones who actually do something about it. As far as saturation is concerned, that is quickly taken care of on its own. As in all entertainment, it is the performer that sets themselves apart from the pack that survive. All the little cookie cutter hypnotists will soon be weeded down to those that have either customized their shows so they are different or will go the way of Edsel.

So practice your show as you practiced your magic to perfection and go out and knock them dead. Or go have someone pick another card and forget about it. The market will bear no less than that from you if you want to survive long term.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Dec 17, 2003 05:37PM)
Martin,

I think we're saying basically the same things.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 17, 2003 06:00PM)
Chris: I almost get dejavu reading your last post. that's exactly how things were here in the mid 90s. Sadly it ruined the market. Hypnosis has always been cyclic in nature and my guess is it will eventually fold in the US to. At least for some years.

Part of it is the eagerness of some to cash in on the fad as much as possible by marketing as many training courses as possible. Some things in my opinion should not be commercially marketed stage hypnosis being one of them. Making secrets readily available is against its primary appeal, being mysterious.

Over here it wasn't so much as magicians but failed club comedians that jumped on the band wagon.

Part of being successful is having a business attitude and placing yourself in key venues before someone else does. Forget agents they will put you in the worst venues for little cash they don't care as long as they make a few pounds. (at least where I live).

Another part of being successful is TIMING. I could see the wave of hypnosis popularuty coming before it actualy got big. I rode the wave and made good cash from it. Now in my opinion by the sheer numbers of people interested in hypnosis the wave has gone. You will find it very dificult to make serious money now. I might be wrong but the market has probably peaked or near as. It will soon spiral downwards.

You need to find theatres in the middle of town with plenty passing traffic. Not to big that you need 500 just to break even. But big enough to make really good cash if you get it half full. I had venue with nearly 1000 seats. I had long stays there filling it out week after week. I needed an agent to help me replicate this all over the country but couldn't find one.

From this one venue I got TV interviews bookings on the University circuit. I was charging double what other hypnotists were for this circuit.

I don't know what it is like in the US but over here a hypnotist was a hypnotist. When being booked clubs that's all they asked for they didn't make any distinctions. I did have a name for myself back then. But allthe influx of cheap hypnotists willing to work for nothing doing bad jobs muddied the water for the few who really knew what they were doing both entertainment wise and business wise.

I feel the US market will go the same.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 17, 2003 07:40PM)
The Ronning Training is being marketed to DJ's so the same will probably result in taht direction. The real threat is the idiot who doesn't follow current pricing and gets in saying it pays more than my day job. Doing shows for $200 or $300 in the cheap range would be saying hey I make $300 an hour. This also shows lack of understanding of basic accounting which is where these cheap idiots come from. You have to factor in your marketing costs. The amount of time getting ready for and traveling to show and your time spent trying to land those shows after the marketing worked.

In the states there are still lots of sub markets and we don't have to go to the trouble of getting licenses and permissions for our show. What I don't understand, Shrink is with all the laws over there regarding Stage Hypnosis, how did all the cookie cutter cheap hypnotists get in in the first place.

We have a local fair here in East Texas that has had the same Hypnotist back for 17 straight years with standing room audiences at each performance. I just don't see the coming collapse on the horizon. And even in the collapsed UK market McKenna still seems to be keeping his own. There will always be Hypnotists and shack outs of the not so good are always a good thing in any tpye of market. IMHO.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 17, 2003 08:20PM)
You maybe right perhaps the US is different to the UK for one thing its a lot bigger.

The laws and situation in the UK is only a recent one. The biggest problem is the insurance. At one time no one even bothered about the license even the police didn't really care. It wasn't until the problems started with the sheer numbers of hypnotists causing damage and attracting a lot of negative publicity. I was almost treated as a rock star in my town. Almost over night I was treated like some kind of pervert or serial killer after the press really went to town.

To be honest I think the time is now right for a come back. However its the insurance position that now is the problem in the UK. I beleive I f I could get that sorted out I would make a decent living until the hacks realised what was happening and once again jumped on the wagon.

What you say about Mckenna is true but he has positioned himself in a key position. Mckenna had the advantage of being a high profile DJ with all the contacts when he got into hypnosis and his famous TV show. I don't know where he gets his insurance but I have heard its astronomical figures. In other words you need to be doing a lot of big shows in order to make it pay. You need money and you need contacts to set that up.

Either way if the market does collapse in the US only one or two very established acts will make it through. Again the US may be different but most businesses have a shelf life with products. And when everyone is running towards something its not the best time to get in. Its usually to late to take the cream. And you are right its the idiots who will kill the market.
Message: Posted by: majhra (Dec 17, 2003 08:42PM)
The thread seems to have changed to be a focus on saturation.

Currently, where I spend most of my day, there is literally 8 Cafés within 30 seconds walk. (Yes, some are next door to one another). Several years ago, no one would have thought to open a similar business that close to another. The Café culture here in Australia has taken off, and is still growing.

Hypnosis shows have a long way before this level of saturation is reached.

Now before someone flames me to point out that selling a cappuccino and selling a stage show are different things, I'd better remind you that in terms of business they are exactly the same.

I have product X. It costs $Y for one patron to get product X. How do I do this so they tell all their friends about product X, buy product X again, and still go away satisfied every time, are the questions you should be asking. Not how easy / hard is it for me to make money. If you ask that question first, you will fail! (And yes, that was a hypnotic command).

Sure, be aware of what your neighbour and the industry is doing. Just because other business are not making as much money as they thought, or are closing, means only you are doing a better job than they are.

Any man and his dog can start performing a hypnosis stage show, training or not. Anyone can open a Café, training or not. What makes it successful is the way they run the business.

Enjoy,
M.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 18, 2003 05:51AM)
I respectfully disagree with your comparison. Hypnosis relies on being popular with the public. Part of that popularity is the mystery, part is novelty. Over exposure will make it much less special therefore less in demand.

With the exception of a few most people will go and see a hypnotist once or twice then won't go back again.

Also with more hypnotists more problems arise that effect how it hypnosis is percieved.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 18, 2003 07:24AM)
Well, there are good magicians and bad, good mentalists and bad, good hypnotists and bad.

Yes, the market has ups and downs and hypnosis has been likened to a streetwalker who rises from the depths of her lifestyle to respectability, only to fall back into her old habits.

Bottom line is that the good stage hypnotists wll keep working, regardless of a glut in the market by a group of johnny-come-lately, weekend wonders who are so bad that their own mothers wouldn't re-book them for a show.

It will just be a bit more difficult for the real pros, like Chris and Shrink to keep up the levels of work that they have enjoyed (myself included) because of such programs and those who believe that they now know it all from those classes.

Cynical? Possibly. I've been in the business since 1969 or thereabouts and I've seen feast and famine in the market.

Where one is going to really draw the line is on stage - and in the selling process.

A 2-day workshop simply can't teach that to anyone that lacks the talent, drive and skill to do the job well.

It also doesn't teach them the most important lesson - persistence! Without that quality, no one, no matter how talented, will really succeed.

Isn't it amazing what an all nighter with a migraine will do to my otherwise sunny disposition? :sun:

;)

Happy holidays!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: majhra (Dec 18, 2003 04:28PM)
I think you got my point across quite well, Lee (migraine notwithstanding).

You are correct Shrink. Part of the draw is the mystery and novelty. The mystery won't go away just because 'everyone' is doing it. The mystery only goes away, IMO if everyone in the audience can do the same thing, and in that case, the audience is there for different reasons. After all, why do Magicians go to see a Magician?

And if the novelty wears off, time to change your marketing angle.

Again I come back to my initial point. If you make your customers happy, so happy they want to come back and bring their friends, then it won't matter if they have a bunch of bad experiences with other performers. They will come back to see You. They know You make them feel good. They know You make them feel something they can't get elsewhere...

It is about customer service.

Regards,
M.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Dec 19, 2003 05:14PM)
Just to clarify, I am not expressing concern over where the market for hypnotists is going. I'm in and established, whatever will happen will have little bearing on me. What I meant to address was the perception I have that many who take up hypnosis will be taking it up for the wrong reasons. Those who are taking it up to compensate for their lack of success at marketing their magic will probably find the same lack of success with hypnosis. But I did try to make it clear that success is possible the old fashioned way, with hard work and dedication.

I feel that these short programs are often approached by the people who take them as a kind of "easy money" scheme, even when they're not marketed that way. I have every reason to believe that Mr. Ronning's course is a very good value, and if the student approaches it with the right frame of mind, I expect he will learn a lot.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 19, 2003 08:24PM)
Majhra,

Hypnosis shows are not like coffee shops! People do not keep coming back apart from the odd hardcore who will also eventually stop coming. Unless you are working in a holiday resort where people change every week. usually conditions for working in these places are pretty awful in european resorts.

Over here even when hypnosis was at its heights you would be lucky if clubs booked you twice in a year. You were a novelty act. While bands get booked every week of the year by the same clubs. Hypnosis was an occasional thing.

The only way to make real money was to find a theatre in the centre of a busy town. You needed to take a risk and do your homework and go ahead and market it like mad. My show also had a fresh approach that fitted into the market at that time. I modelled part of my performance on a number of alternative comedians who were popular at that time and then gradually had my own style.

Each town is different. I sold out nearly 1000 seats here in Edinburgh for about three years. The last big show I did was around 8-9 years ago.

However in Glasgow about 70 miles away a hypnotist still occasionally sells out a theatre in the city centre and had a TV show because of it. As far as I am aware there is no other cities in the whole of Scotland that could support either of the above for those time frames. The same hypnotist who still does business in Glasgow tried Edinburgh a few times but failed.

During that time I also did all the University circuits and Army barracks hotels and social clubs. But you couldn't make a good consistent living by these venues alone(even at the hieghts). Once you got into the theatre type venues you didn't want to! But either way they booked hypnotists on a once a year mainly basis. Then when the market was flooded and every second pub (never do pubs)had one working for peanuts the public got sick of it it very quickly.

Bookings died out within a few months! They went from working once every week to zero in 6 months. No one wanted hypnotists the trend was over. That is how it always has been in this country it is cyclic. It appears, rises then falls every decade or so. Like many business cycles.

Customer service? Its not the same as selling coffee no matter where you live. Its not as easy as you think. Only a few make it because of talent persistence and lucky breaks. You need all of these elements to succeed. Coming into the game late when there are lots of hypnos around when all the best key venues are gone is not gonna fufill your dreams. Your more likely to be the ones working in bad venues for bad money taking the crumbs left to you.

Of course who knows perhaps where you live that wave isn't over your head yet, and you can surf for a while.
Message: Posted by: majhra (Dec 21, 2003 04:56PM)
Shrink,

Thanks for your detailed and informative post. Unfortunately I think you misunderstood some of my earlier comments. I related coffee shops and hypnosis in terms of 'selling the business' only. I understand they are different things, and yet, how can someone sell a coffee for over $2 when you used to buy a never-ending cup for $1?

I will attempt a different metaphor. Years ago there were only a few gyms. Now there are many. Why is it (at least where I live) most people attempt to get to the gym 3 times a week? They are told to by their personal trainer. Yes, that's right, the person who works and is paid by the gym the more you come, is telling you that you have to come more. What a sales job that's been done to us all! Now even those that don't go to the gym think 3 times a week is the norm. (and before I get flamed for saying something I'm not - exercise is good, and required for health)

Now, my point. How did going to the gym, when previously only for the professional or hobby muscle builders went, become mainstream? How did it move from being a Novelty? Hell, I know in parts of China, a cappuccino is a novelty.

What I'm attempting to say is that maybe for you the wave is gone. Maybe it's Scotland where the wave is gone. Maybe there is no wave. If you think you can only make it because of a lucky break, then anyone who follows that idea will fail because most people think luck is outside themselves, and thus have no control over it. If you don't know how to sell yourself, run your own business, make your own luck, or several other skills other than hypnosis then you are going to have an uphill battle.

And while coming into the game late makes it a little more difficult in some areas of the business, it makes easier in others. You have to work harder to get into the good venues; you have to stand out from your peers; you have to do someone people will want to come back to. It’s no longer about just riding an easy ‘wave’ of other people success.

Imagine, just for the moment, that hypnosis had the popularity of a morning coffee. Everyone was 'unable' to concentrate till they had their 'hit'. There were five hypnotists in each shop just to cope with demand. Do you think you'd be still talking the end of the wave? Now I'm sure you're thinking I'm naive or just stupid. But so did the friends of the guy began selling the gym to the mainstream, or the guy who started charging more for coffee by the cup...

Enjoy,
M.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 21, 2003 06:03PM)
Majhra:

I wish you the best of luck but I think you will be learning a few hard lessons soon. you still compare stage hypnosis with a daily consumable. It just isn't like that.

There is no such thing as riding an easy wave in any business, but one big ingredient of success is recognising the elements and taking advantage. Another is being different and fresh. that's why comparing coffee to hypnosis is an indication of your failure to grasp what I'm am trying to share with you. Ive been there Ive done it. Im actually doing it again now in a different way. Im taking advantage of another trend but doing it in a creative a fresh way. My daily rate is starting at £1000 a day for someone who is not known in this field personal development( I expect to double it within 6 months). When I started in Stage Hypnosis I was twice as expensive as local hypnotists. I can command this at an early stage because I know how to position myself in a market. I was the first in my area with a specific kind of show.

What you don't realise is good venues only book a hypnotist now and again. The really good venues such as theatres that sell out for years are few and far between. And you will find they involve financial risk and are already inhabited by a seasoned pro with a name.

Hypnosis is like many businesses it comes and goes in popularity. The more in the market the less you can charge for your shows. (supply and demand).The more in the market the less novel and mysterious.

I don't know what the market is like in your area. But if hypnotists are common place then you will be working hard just to get a few bookings a month at a low rate. And these will most likely be in bad performing conditions.

But that's all I can tell you...Let us know how you get on..
Message: Posted by: majhra (Dec 21, 2003 06:57PM)
Shrink,

You seem like a smart guy, I'm offering franchise opportunities in the "Hypno-joint" hypnosis lounges if you want one. ;-)

I do actually grasp what you are attempting to share. I also grasp that you've been there and done it and are now cynical. The fact that you are now doing something creative in a fresh way is an indicator to me that you are doing exactly what I expressed to others with my metaphor of coffee. You do understand you have to do something different (charging twice as much as everyone else is an example of that). You do understand that following the trend will both help and hinder you.

One of the other ways to do this (which started this thread) is 'graduating' to a teaching position. For whatever reason Ronning, McGill and a whole bunch of others decided to change how they made money from the market.

Regardless of what business you are in, there will always be 'fly by night' operators. They will undercut you, bad mouth you, claim the world is ending, or whatever they think it takes. Yes they are a drain on your resources, yes they can damage your name and the name of the industry. However I think everyone reading this understands that if you want to make more than a passing, one time income, you have to separate yourself from these people by offering something these people can't...

Regards,
M.
Message: Posted by: shrink (Dec 21, 2003 10:38PM)
Majhra:

Following a trend will hinder you. The mere fact your following suggests your behind it. Seeing a trend develop and riding it while creating part of it is entirely different. You are virtually aligning yourself with a mainstream flow of money.(or a wave)Successful entrepenuers know this, they know when to get into a trend and when to get out.

Separating yourself from the rest in a saturated market is near impossible. However combining markets to create a unique product is something different again. that's what I am doing now. Its early days but feedback is very good. There is no one in the market I'm entering now offering a product or programme quite like mine that I'm aware off. So it should be easy to kill off most of the competition.(well nothing is ever easy perhaps I'm being optimistic)

I suspect like many here in the UK they turned to teaching because the big money was no longer there performing shows. And apparently it is always easier to earn big money teaching others how to. that's why there is all these courses around teaching you how to make money.

Hypnosis is facinating theres no doubt about it. If that's what you want to do go ahead. I wish you luck

:smiletear:
Message: Posted by: Ray Thompson (Dec 22, 2003 11:03AM)
I am sure most of you realize there is truth in what each of you are saying. I do tend to agree with Lee Darrow and with Bob Cassidy points about it being important to know hypnosis and how to entertain. The 3 day courses can be very good for an experienced entertainer who has a basic knowledge of hypnosis. Just be careful in believing everything in an advertisement for training, whether it is hypnosis, magic, or playing a violin.
My usual recommendation is to take a basic hypnosis certification course: it teaches you a lot and the certificate can be helpful in marketing yourself; take any and all stage classes, but from people who can prove they have been out there performing; then, if at all possible, apprentice shourself with a successful performer who can work with you on an on going basis as you develop and improve your show.
P.S. Thanks to each of the contributors here for their thoughts, and their courteous approach.
Message: Posted by: Dr Omni (Dec 22, 2003 02:02PM)
A whole series of really excellent and informed comments on this thread. One other point I'd like to add is this. Ask yourself: what other things have I done in my life which can contribute to my stage hypnosis show? Surely virually everybody interested in the field has already learned things which can be applied to creating a unqiue show. When I was a lot younger, I always wanted to be a film director, made a lot of amateur films and videos from script to final edit, and was - and still to some extent am - a film buff, seeking out obscure old films from around the world and reading about all aspects of film production and theory. (Working professionally in the TV inbdustry was a lot less fun than being an amateur, but that's another story.)

I think this interest - and applying knowledge from it - has assisted my stage hypnosis act. I learned (I hope) something about acting, dramatic timing, showmanship, the importance of sound and music, and how to keep the audience entertained, rather than bored. In a sense, a stage hypnotist *is* a director, directing both the subject's acting performance and the "movies" playing in the subjects' head.

If the budding stage hypnotist searching his own life and interests - past and present - he will almost certainly find something analogous where he already has knowledge and insights that he can apply to building his act.
Message: Posted by: hypnosis101 (Dec 22, 2003 07:33PM)
I couldn't help but notice folks were talking about Geoffery Ronning's course here. I am a hypnosis instructor and one of my former students took Geoff's course. I asked this student what he thought of the course and his answer sheds some light on some of the subjects being debated here. He is an experienced performer but adds his opinion on how the course would be if you weren't experienced with hypnosis. Here is the email he sent in return to my question.
Keith Livingston


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hypnosis 101" <snipped>
To: "Leo" <snipped>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:31 AM
Subject: Geoff's course



> Hi Leo,
> How are you doing?
> Listen, I wonder if you could take a minute and let me know what you
> thought of Geoff's stage hypnosis course.
> Keith
>
> http://www.hypnosis101.com
> 206.721.8751 or
> 1.877.624.3475
> >
>
>
>

Hey Keith!

Hope all is well. I must say that the course was worth every penny. I had
already been to a few stage hypnosis courses in the past and left feeling
ripped off and still not completely confident in my self. But I think anyone
who didn't have any type of training in Hypnosis would walk away knowing
allot and able to perform a good show with out a doubt..


He is also a very good teacher, as you are in keeping things rolling and not
side tracking. His Induction the EKG (Erickson Kein, Geoff) is great. I
think it is perfect for the Stage Hypnotist.


Oh also He had this extra day that was taught by Ron Stubbs. I found that to
be a plus. It would definitely fit in with your training as an extra added
bonus day. It was about how you can make extra income teaching hypnosis as
community colleges. It was good.


So in a nut shell I was thoroughly satisfied by his program. I think that
going to yours first then his made a huge difference also. I left yours
feeling so confident in my knowledge of hypnosis that I was able to
understand and learn quicker at his. So I thank you also for putting on a
great program as well.


Well, that's it for now. I'm off to Florida for the holidays.
I hope you have a great holiday and hope to speak to you soon.


Leo

Take care!
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Dec 22, 2003 11:39PM)
I took a similar course from Scott McFall in 1998. Scott has plenty of certification and a couple of decades of experience both as a stage hypnotist and as a hypnotherapist. About half of the people in the class were Medical Doctors who were interested in expanding their horizons. The other half were magicians.

Scott recommended that all of us take some kind of certification. In fact, he recommended a hypnosis institute that would give is the kind of training the NGH does.

I went into the course with a strong background in hypnosis as well as some college psychology training. There were two points that I needed to have answers on before I would accept him as an experienced hypnotist. He answered both points to my satisfaction.

I learned enough from what he taught at the course that I could have gone out and done a hypnosis show -- a good one within a month or so of the training. But I already knew enough about the dangers of it that I decided it would be a bad move on my part.

Maybe sometime down the road I'll take the additional training to become NGH certified. But it's not what I want to do right now, and I don't see putting myself in that position.
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 23, 2003 02:18PM)
I think Chris was right on the money with his post about the easy money attitude some people have when they go into one of these courses.

Any course can present someone with information that they can use - the real test of the quality of a course is the quality of the people who come out of the course!

Do they present a good, entertaining show? Did their existing show, if any, improve noticeably as a result OF the class? Have they improved their re-booking rates (getting brought back to the same venue over and over again)? Have they been booking more shows, with better results because of the material they learned in the class.

This, IMPO, is the acid test for any course.

Of course, there are always those who will take a class and walk on stage and embarrass the daylights out of themselves. I had that happen to the act that was on before me at NGH 2000. And it shouldn't have happened as this person's instructor was in attendance at the convention!

Just goes to show that one gets out of a course what one puts into it, in many ways.

Happy holidays,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: christopher carter (Dec 23, 2003 06:56PM)
I've recently had an opportunity to correspond with Geoff and to visit his site, and I have to say I'm very impressed. I had heard good things about the course previously, and what I've learned from his site and from talking with him has confirmed in my mind that this is probably a very good training program.

--Chris
Message: Posted by: Doink (Dec 24, 2003 12:00AM)
I attended Geoffrey and Wendy's seminar. I know it seems impossible to be able to perform a professional stage hypnosis show after just 3 days of training, but I did, and still do. I am glad I didn't read this site before I attended or you very well might have talked me out of attending his course.

All I can tell you is that after attending his seminar, I very quickly put together a professional and safe program that I am extremely proud of. Starting out in a field like this does have it's risks, but Geoffrey's course prevented me from experiencing dangerous situations more effectively than any book, vhs course or other hypnosis seminar that I attended. That is one of the things I am most grateful for, was his approach to prevent the fire before it starts, and he explains how to do this in depth, over and over again.

Is it a good idea to be a hypnotherapist before doing a stage show? Wouldn't hurt. I know that I was with a private practice for 10 years. But I was doing some pretty pathetic shows back then too. If you want to learn how to do a safe, entertaining, professional program, don't fool around. I know for a fact that Geoffrey and Wendy don't need to do this seminar to pay the bills, and there is no guarantee that they are going to do another seminar in the future.

Sure you can get his taped course, and I'm sure it's great, but if you want to get a show going fast, there's nothing better than having Geoffrey right there to correct your mistakes and get you on track right away.

As far as a saturated market goes, maybe I'm blessed. But in my area, very few Corporations and hardly any schools have ever used a stage hypnotist. I spend most my time educating them on the benefits of a Hypno Show, and when I get in, the re-bookings are great. It's great to be in the good old Mid-West.

I also do magic professionally-and now you're talking a saturated market!

Michael Thomas Cht.
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Dec 27, 2003 04:53PM)
Hope all the Hyp Act And Mentalism Buffs had a Great Christmas. Hope 2004 is the most prosperous year ever for all of your careers.

Martin
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Dec 30, 2003 07:53PM)
Michael, your post actually supported my comments on the short form training programs.

You stated that you had "been with a practice for 10 years, " and my comments were to the effect that such a class could significantly help someone with a basic understanding of hypnosis that also knows how to entertain.

I intend no sleight on Mr. Ronning or his program. If he's teaming with Wendi Freisen, one of my favorite people, the bonus material on marketing that she brings to the table is worth the price alone.

I'm glad you got something good out of the training, but can you honestly say that someone with no knowledge of hypnosis would have benefitted as much?

Honest question, not a troll or flame.

Happy New Year!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Message: Posted by: GeoffreyRonning (Dec 31, 2003 04:37PM)
Hi All,

A couple of my students told me to come in and clear up some misconceptions regarding our Stage Hypnosis Course, so here I am.

First, let me thank everyone who made any posts regarding this topic. I think they were all valuable and that you are all sincere.

Many of you, like me, have a great love of this craft. I consider hypnosis not only the most powerful tool on earth, but also the most entertaining form of variety entertainment. I love hypnosis.

That is what drove us to offering our course and mentoring people. I was seeing far to many poor hypnosis shows. It was killing me. My goal was (and still is) to eradicate the garbage shows. I do not want to just repair the state of the stage hypnosis industry, but improve it.

It is with great honor that I read the positive comments of people like Bob Cassidy, Blair Robertson, Christopher Carter, Joe Libby, Martin Blakley, Bill Anderson, Dr. Omni, Michael Thomas, Leo Salgado, etc.

It is also nice that people who have attended our course are so positive; this is of course, what we strive for. It is still nice to read things like, in less than two months Bill Anderson made back his total $$$ investment.

In a day and age when customer satisfaction seems to be lower than ever, it is truly rewarding to know our customers are satisfied with what we are delivering.

For those of you that don’t know, I’m a Certified Instructor with the National Guild of Hypnotists. There was a question of Certification with whom and for what. If you read my course description before posting there would be no questions.

The description is here:
http://www.stagehypnosiscenter.com/hypreport.html

It spells out specifically that upon successful completion you are certified with the Stage Hypnosis Center. This course has nothing to do with the NGH (National Guild of Hypnotists) course or conferring the CH designation from the NGH.
If you read the course description that would be obvious.

Lee Darrow, regarding the NGH Certification, that is a 100 hour certification course, not 150 as you posted, unless they changed the number of hours without letting their Certified Instructors know. Which is doubtful because I just got an email from Dr. Richard Harte (on a CI list) a couple of days ago that said nothing about them increasing the length of the course and he wrote it.

But again, that is not relevant to this conversation regarding our stage hypnosis course, because that is a totally different course. If you reviewed our course description, that would have been obvious.

Regarding continual education. Of course you should continue to study. As Joe Libby pointed out, that is something I continually harp on and on about in both live trainings and our products.

In fact, in my course description I make that point very clear and also directly attribute any success I have a Stage Hypnotist, to the fact that I continually invest significantly in live trainings and educational products for both hypnosis and business. Anyone that read the course description would see that.

Regarding the market for stage hypnosis: Christopher Carter said it better than I ever could. This is not a get rich quick scheme, and is not offered as one.

However, I will tell you that the people I know who have a good show and have good business skills, find it very profitable.

It sounds as if some people on this forum cannot get any work with stage hypnosis. I’m certain they are correct; they cannot get any work. But personally, I have been very busy and have many friends that are as well. In fact another friend of mine who I talked to over last weekend, just had three shows (over this same last weekend). He is very busy as well.

And of course, Bill Anderson who just started offering stage hypnosis shows has already earned back his investment, so people are booking him as well. Of course we are all in the US, but then I got this email a couple of days ago from one of my students who trained with me a couple of years ago, he resides in Canada:

>>>>>>>
I pulled in $2000 for the show, $3600 for the % cut based on number of
tickets sold and $1100 in BOR. $6700 for one show...I know that is only
about $100US but is the best I have done on this journey to date....oh yah,
and I got booked for 2 more next year.

>>>>>>>>>

He is in Canada so that is why the joke about the US exchange rate.

He had no prior experience in show business and is doing great. I agree with him, $6700.00 for one show is not bad, even if it is Canadian.

In addition, I know Blair Robertson in Canada is SUPER successful as well.

So, while I’m certain there are many stage hypnotists who cannot find work, I’m also certain that there is another group of us, who have more work than we can possibly service.

Why is this so? It is hard to say, there are a thousand possible reasons. It could be show quality, rapport skills, hygiene, marketing strategy, geography, venues, commitment, perseverance, education, self-limiting beliefs, etc., etc.

That is always the way it will be, particularly if you are offering a replaceable “commodity” such as a “hypnosis show” instead of a valuable service, that can only be delivered by “YOU.”

But of course that is true in all business. That does not matter one bit if you are selling a hypnosis show, magic show, cup of coffee or park bench.

If you are offering a commodity, then it will always come down to price, and that is a very dangerous place to be if a profitable business is your goal.

BTW, the bulk of my income is from performing stage hypnosis, NOT teaching it. I only teach a couple days of the year. That is all the students can put up with.

I think that should clear up the major misconceptions regarding our course.

I wish you all continued success and a wonderful 2004,

Geoffrey Ronning, CH, CI

http://www.stagehypnosiscenter.com/hypreport.html


PS. Lee Darrow, I’m not sure why you think I’m teaming with Wendi Friesen, I looked over this entire thread and saw nothing that stated that, and that is not stated anywhere on my site or Wendi’s.

Perhaps you jumped to that conclusion because someone mentioned “Wendy” my wife? It does not matter, at any rate, rather than speculating about things, perhaps it is best to do a little investigating before posting online.

I mean no disrespect to you or Wendi, I have great respect for you both, I would just hate to have incorrect information disseminated for as long as people frequent this site…

PSS. My sincere appreciation once again for all comments, and in particular for those of you who have had personal experience with Wendy (my wife) and me through our products and training. You really made our night with all the nice comments and, of course, are the only ones that can truly judge our service…..
Message: Posted by: MagicalPirate (Jan 4, 2004 05:20PM)
Thanks Geoffrey for taking the time to register for Magic Café and posting such an informative response.

Martin :pirate:

:dancing:

Just so everyone knows Geoffrey's Live Training is coming up in April and there are still openings. If anyone has been wanting to do this now is the time. He only does it once a year so if you miss it you will have to wait another year.

Martin :pirate:

Update: Jan 19 2005

Well the verdict is in. I know 3 different people who have made a successful go at the hypnosis show with self training or one of these three day wonders and they obviously work as these peoples shows are great to watch.

Martin :pirate: