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Topic: Loosing work while defending hypnotism to laymen
Message: Posted by: Paul Lungu (Dec 7, 2013 09:29PM)
Hello,

I am by no means a hypnotist, I have not read any books about the subject or made any attempts to perform it. I am a magician.

However I do have friends, I dabble constantly in magic, mentalist, hypnotist circles and I know enough from others to get a general idea about what it is and how it works.

One of my best friends actually had a TV show in which he did several traditional stage hypnotism acts. The thing is, nobody believed it, and I mean NOBODY. My own parents did not believe that those people were not actors, despite my countless assurances.

This is probably the reason the show was rapidly canceled, but that is not why I write.

Like I said I am no hypnotist, but I dabble and I have friends, lay friends who talk about it as if it were the biggest con ever, and anyone who buys it needs their head examined.

When trying to defend it I got in a terrible argument with a close friend of mine. He, as most everyone else who had seen my friend on TV, were convinced it was fake and only a cheap attempt to get ratings and that no actual study or skill was involved.

I explained to this person, the best way I could, what hypnotism is and what it is not. I think I can be articulate enough and I used the best examples and explanations I could devise at the time.

I told him that it is not necessarily a matter of going into a trance like state where you can not control yourself. I told him how it only works on certain people, and how on TV they only show the best of the best. I explained it is not a matter of mind control and that no one does things they do not want to do.

Every thing I said seemed absurd to this person. He simply would not accept the fact that one would act like a monkey because he has been hypnotized. He remained convinced about the fact that all individuals in all type of hypnotism shows were stooges.

I then proceed to tell him about my personal experience, letting him know about the many times I was present during demonstrations of hypnosis, both in casual settings and in live stage shows, explaining how friends of mine had been through this process, regular every day people who got up on stage and played the piano with their teeth, or other friends who forgot the number three or could not lift a cup of the table, things I had seen friends or acquaintances do live on many occasions.

Not only did this not convince him, but every new example I gave MADE HIM DOUBT MY SANITY. He now honestly thinks I am either gullible or insane and any new argument I give just enforces this opinion of his.

Leaving aside the fact that this person is one of my oldest, closest friends, he is also a valuable business connection. However he now doubts my intelligence and shrewdness because of this. He no longer trusts me because "I believe this nonsense". In this argument, we just managed to barely kept our conduct, me being as flabbergasted by his ignorance as he was by my apparent naivete.

From that time I have tried to send him as solid proof as I can as to what stage hypnotism actually is, but the harder I try, the more his image of my insanity grows stronger.

Any advice on this matter is well appreciated. Either how I can convince him, or if he can't be convinced (as I think the case is, due to his initial commitment) any way of soothing the tense atmosphere between us so we can continue hopefully as friends, and if not, as collaborators in business, although in this industry the two are very related.
Message: Posted by: 123crampt (Dec 7, 2013 10:04PM)
Pick your battles
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 8, 2013 12:31AM)
You got into an argument about it? Why exactly?
Message: Posted by: kevinuncanny (Dec 8, 2013 04:27AM)
All t.v. is prowrestling. Everything is slanted, reality television is scripted. Why would anyone 100% committ eo believing anything on t.v. is real?

Hypnosis will always suffer from that problem on t.v. I shot a special, I did everything possible to make it authentic and real, but I know most people who don't know me will assume it is actors.

Then again, on t.v. we have the luxury of selecring the best of the best from the group to do it, so while not actors, it is kind of staged.

In the end, why argue with them? They are committed to not believing it. Tell them to go see a live show and volunteer!
Message: Posted by: Paul Lungu (Dec 8, 2013 05:09AM)
I didn't seek out an argument, we were just talking. The topic came to my friend's show and I gave my opinion, knowing a thing or two about it. We debated the issue for a long time as we often did about many things. Mostly it was just conversation but the longer it went on and the more I tried to explain it, the more he thought of me as being loony.

After having my sanity questioned over and over again I obviously became angry. I tried to let it go several times but the damage was done. He now thinks I am untrustworthy and gullible, and I think he is ignorant and simple. Right now I just want us to be able to collaborate, I doubt any evidence will make him admit he was wrong, especially after such a heated debate.

I abandoned the issue a while ago but there is still a tension between us and he still brings it up sometimes with a very condescending tone, "Just don't hypnotize me ok?"
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 8, 2013 08:53AM)
I can't believe you get that vested in an opinion.
Message: Posted by: seadog93 (Dec 8, 2013 09:41AM)
My only advice is to stop trying to convince your friend, respectfully disagree and hope/expect that he respects you enough to accept that you have different thoughts.

I know how frustrating a conversation like that can be, and how easily it is to sucked deeply into defending your position and how "hoppin' mad" you can get when people just refuse to listen. The thin is that, like accepting a hypnotic suggestion, people can choose to listen to you and agree with you or not and if they've firmly decided something is true then they will not let you distract them with the facts. Better to let it go and remain friends.

Earlier on in the conversation you could have switched to a social compliance model of what was going on; or pointed out that people at parties can sometimes act like monkeys or do other silly things without hypnosis, so there is no reason to think that the same people, brought on stage and given permission wouldn't do the same thing or more.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Dec 8, 2013 12:36PM)
"It's real to them."
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Dec 8, 2013 03:05PM)
A waste of time arguing. I learned that the hard way. Hypnosis is just an exagerated demonstration of how the mind is conditioned in everyday life.

You might say relgeon isn't real but the mass mind control involved is very real.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Dec 8, 2013 10:55PM)
It's real to them.
[quote]
On 2013-12-08 16:05, mindpunisher wrote:
You might say relgeon isn't real but the mass mind control involved is very real.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 9, 2013 08:39AM)
You should have proved it to him by doing some pseudo-hypnosis. :P

Or just let it go. ;)
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Dec 9, 2013 01:11PM)
"The thing is, nobody believed it, and I mean NOBODY."

One of the things people with greater knowledge need to learn, IMO, is that other people do not like it when you show that you have greater knowledge. Note your statement above: this is not about science, logic, fact, reason, etc., it's about belief. When you bluntly tell someone "you're wrong," they will immediately get upset about it. When you show your greater knowledge (although I would debate some of that knowledge) to a person who is already upset that you said he's wrong, he'll start acting defensively and ignore what you're saying, sticking even more strongly to his previously determined beliefs. So I would suggest that although, in this approach you had good motives, your approach was doomed to failure.

Second, you didn't say WHY you felt it was necessary to defend hypnosis. If you know that hypnosis is real, like nuclear bombs are real, it shouldn't matter if someone thinks nuclear bombs--or hypnosis--aren't real. Therefore, there must be some motivation you have for trying to turn your friend into a believer. To me, this sounds more like a religious zealot than someone who knows hypnosis is real.

Third, my guess is you're correct, and that on at least this particular TV program "they only show the best of the best." I would also guess that you weren't at the tapings of the show. Therefore, it is every bit as possible that the show was a set up as much as it might have been real. So he might have actually been correct concerning this show.

Fourth, when someone says something that is completely outside of your understanding of the universe, it is natural to think that person is crazy. This is exactly what happened to you.

What to do: As I stated, your entire approach was wrong and your current approach is wrong. Sending him bits of information is not going to change his belief system. Continuing to send him bits of information will make you appear more and more like a conspiracy nut-job trying to convince him that alien intelligent lizards at Area 51 are conspiring with the world's governments to give them technology in exchange for allowing them to kidnap humans, taken them into their ships, and give them implants and an@l probes. Your approach is a LOSER. Stop it. This second. Just stop. Let it go. Don't bring it up again. Ever.

What if HE brings it up? What you've been doing is attempting to defend hypnosis. Instead, you should get him to question his beliefs. When he makes a statement such as "It's a fake," don't deny it; question him. "How do you know that?" And then, depending upon how far it seems appropriate to go, stay on it. "So you've never actually investigated it." "So you have no proof it's fake, you just believe it's fake." "What other beliefs do you have that are not based on any actual research?" etc.

This is not about hypnosis. It's about beliefs. Change your focus. Bring back the things you and your friend like to do together.

And finally, some wise advice I once heard:

If you want to be seen, stand up.
If you want to be heard, speak up.
If you want to be appreciated, shut up.
Message: Posted by: thementalcoach (Dec 9, 2013 06:00PM)
Don't discount the power of fear, as well. I've had people, when they learn I'm a hypnotist, refuse to look me in the eye, tell me to my face that I do the work of the devil, that I should be ashamed of myself for controlling people for a living, and those are the nice ones!

I just smile and say, that's OK, everyone has the right to their opinion. I don't engage because I'm not going to convince them of anything if they have a powerful mis-learned belief - that was installed by hypnosis in the first place! :)

If someone says something like "I've heard hypnosis is...dangerous, you lose control, etc., is that true?" then I'll ask them if they've ever had an emotional reaction watching a movie (especially a scary one). When they say yes, I tell them that they hypnotized themselves, that analytically they know movies aren't real, but they are allowing themselves to PRETEND as if it's real because they want to, they are creating electro-chemical changes in their brain, making their heart beat faster, breathe faster, have a cold sweat, tears, etc., for something they logically KNOW is fake.

And I tell them, that's hypnosis. You do it yourself. I just help people shift their focus from that analytical part of their mind to their imagination, when they want to, for a purpose they want. In my office that's to overcome a mental block or improve some aspect of their life. On stage it's to have fun and do things they've always wanted to do but that normally they'd be much too shy to do. But they are always in control.

Usually people pause and say, "that makes sense to me."
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Dec 9, 2013 06:41PM)
If all of that fails stomp on his toes and twist his nose it always worked for the three stooges..
Message: Posted by: thementalcoach (Dec 10, 2013 10:02PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-09 19:41, mindpunisher wrote:
If all of that fails stomp on his toes and twist his nose it always worked for the three stooges..
[/quote]

Works for me!
Message: Posted by: Paul Lungu (Dec 11, 2013 03:00PM)
Thanks for the advice.

Neither myself or him are religious in the least and there was no particular reason for me to try and convince him. He is normally a very open minded person and a fan of magic, we had many long, philosophical, contradictory talks in the past. This one just got out of hand as I got more and more upset as my experiences and knowledge were instantly dis considered and converted into proof of my insanity.

I know for a fact that the show was not rigged in the sense he thought it was, but even that was besides the point. Working on cruise ships I have seen many stage hypnotism acts and also met and chatted with a few of these people. Telling him about this he argued that the entire hypnotism on cruise ships industry was a sham, all the participants being stooges. Not only this but also every other stage show, tv show, book or forum in existence was an elaborate rouse to convince gullible people such as myself that it is real.

This is what made me get into it, the blind ignorance in the face of overwhelming information. Plus the fact that he did not let it go either, at all. Whenever I tried to change the subject he would bring it back up saying that he still can't believe I think this way and that he completely changed his opinion of me.

I realize now that the best thing to do was some kind of early creative avoidance of the subject, at the time I had no idea where the conversation was going.

Thank you again for your advice, some of it was very useful.

As for me getting to vested in my opinions... NO I DON'T! THAT IS ABSURD, HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT!!!
Message: Posted by: insight (Dec 11, 2013 03:49PM)
There is a simple way to solve this problem. If he has 10 audience members, why not hypnotize all of them and provide them with a video? This is concrete proof...no audience member will think that they were themselves a stooge---problem solved...right?

Regards,
Mike
Message: Posted by: Owen Mc Ginty (Dec 12, 2013 06:56AM)
The last person who told me they didnīt believe in hypnosis was a lab technician. She said "you canīt expect a scientific person like me to believe all of that codswallop".

"You think itīs all made up then?" I asked.
"Yes" she said, "100%".

"Great" I said, "So you wont mind being my volunteer for a little demonstration then".

All of a sudden she was afraid of something "make-believe".
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Dec 12, 2013 07:50AM)
Its a phenomena if you want to call it that that exists. Even some stage hypnotists don't believe it exists yet see and facilitate it on a regular basis. Its all down to perception. We all perceive events differently. Which is kind of ironic because that's what hypnotists do we shape and shift perception. The good ones the highly skilled ones know how to do this outwith a stage show. A stage show is just an amplified example of that process.

People come up with all kinds of rational to hold on to their beliefs or skepticism. I did a show where two guys were in their underpants and some jumped up and shouted " look they are both plants they have the same colour of underwear!"

I know how easy it is to get sucked into these arguments but have learned ( although I wish it had been quicker)to accept that this is the way things are and I have no real benefit trying to change things.

I also realized someone's current reality is just a by product of how their mind is "configured" and really there is no such thing as reality. In other words we are all in our own "trances" or configurations.

So detach and let them be who cares....

I once early on in my career did a show for an officers mess in the highlands in a famous Fort. The very posh officers treated me badly... threw food at me shoes etc etc. They ridiculed me for about five minutes before handing over the mic.Shouted out I was a charlatan that was before I even started! I was only concerned about a new radio Mic I had bought that cost Ģ800 they were really expensive back then. Any way it got to a point where they were in their seats on stage with a glass of brandy and a cigar in the other hand. I told them to put them down they refused. I told them to go back to their seats they refused. So I one by one pulled them up by the scruff of the neck put my foot on their back sides and literally kicked them off the stage! they were flying all over the place it was like a kungfu movie. Imagine these very posh girl like men flying across the stage area like a camp dance troup that had went wrong!

I managed to get a very posh female into hypnosis and a very effeminate officer despite the shouting and constant throwing of food shoes etc. It was a miracle really. I told the officer his willy was on fire and normally they pick up a drink and try and put it out. This guy stood there and bawled like a baby. Of course I told the room in the event of a war I was going to join the other side. More food although no shoes were thrown at me because they were all ready on the stage.

I managed to get the female to do a very detailed swan lake. There was a table of about 6 officers right at the front that had chanted fake for most of the evening. So I went up to them with this posh tart probably related to Royalty wrapped around my leg trying to hump it like an enthusiastic Labrador on a very hot day and said " who is a Charlatan now?!. Two of them rushed towards me all I was concerned about was my new expensive mic so I quickly passed it on to my mate and turned back to thump them. by then a few of their friends were trying to hold them back and they all fell forward into a heap at my feet....

I was pleased for them because they would've got hurt.


That was my third or fourth show if I remember correctly and I never had stage fright after that........
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Dec 12, 2013 11:25AM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-11 16:49, insight wrote:
There is a simple way to solve this problem. If he has 10 audience members, why not hypnotize all of them and provide them with a video? This is concrete proof...no audience member will think that they were themselves a stooge---problem solved...right?

Regards,
Mike
[/quote]

Unfortunately not. This is about belief, not proof. As Dunninger used to say, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is enough."
Message: Posted by: insight (Dec 12, 2013 01:10PM)
Yes, that is a classic quote. I think there are two camps of non-believers: 1) Those who don't believe to be stubborn, 2) Those who don't believe due to lack of proof.

If the audience is filled with the type 1, then you are right...there is no hope. But if those 10 audience members are type 2, well then...a little proof will go a long way.

Regards,
Mike


[quote]
On 2013-12-12 12:25, dmkraig wrote:
[quote]
On 2013-12-11 16:49, insight wrote:
There is a simple way to solve this problem. If he has 10 audience members, why not hypnotize all of them and provide them with a video? This is concrete proof...no audience member will think that they were themselves a stooge---problem solved...right?

Regards,
Mike
[/quote]

Unfortunately not. This is about belief, not proof. As Dunninger used to say, "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is enough."
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 12, 2013 02:15PM)
Sounds to me like it just might be easier to make a new friend.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Dec 12, 2013 03:54PM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-12 14:10, insight wrote:

If the audience is filled with the type 1, then you are right...there is no hope. But if those 10 audience members are type 2, well then...a little proof will go a long way.

Regards,
Mike
[quote]

Possibly, Mike. My question, however, is WHY would you want to spend all that time on an audience to MAYBE convince a small proportion of people? Is it worth that much to you? If so, then it's not really about convincing someone else, it's more about "proving" that you're right.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 12, 2013 04:38PM)
Mark Lewis always said "a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. "

While I hate to agree with the dude and it causes physical pain to type the words...he is right.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Dec 12, 2013 07:09PM)
Danny's suggestion that it might be easier to make a new friend seems like the best suggestion in the whole thread. If this is upsetting you emotionally then you really need to look within. You are being reactive rather than proactive. You are letting other people push your buttons. There are just some things in life that are out of your control. Someone can only make you feel bad if you give them permission.

Maybe its worth looking into the reasons why its so important for you to change someone else's view? Why bother? Who cares? Find people who are like minded and hang out with them instead.

By the way you wouldn't want to hang out with Mark Lewis with regards to this subject..
Message: Posted by: RScot (Dec 13, 2013 09:15AM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-08 01:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
You got into an argument about it? Why exactly?
[/quote]

Oh I don't know, maybe trying to defend his friend who was being labelled a cheat and a fraud. I mean we are supposed to stick by our friends aren't we?
Message: Posted by: RScot (Dec 13, 2013 09:18AM)
If I recall correctly I believe David Berglas talked about his experience with hypnotism in one of the DVDs included with his book. He talks about it having some negative side effects on some people and decided that he should stop doing it. I would say that if something had a lasting impact on a person then it certainly was real. I, however, have never studied the craft myself. So I know very little about it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 13, 2013 09:36AM)
I can't belive this thread has continued on his long. Do you feel you have to convince every skeptic or non-believer? Your performance should do the talking for you. Every show I (and all of us do) there are many non-believers and skeptics. You simply do a great show where they see the process before you eyes, and most will change their perceptions. If not, no big deal, it's not your job to make them do or believe anything.

This is also why you do attempt hypnosis or theory with family and friends.
Message: Posted by: dmkraig (Dec 13, 2013 10:26AM)
[quote]
On 2013-12-12 17:38, Dannydoyle wrote:
Mark Lewis always said "a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. "

While I hate to agree with the dude and it causes physical pain to type the words...he is right.
[/quote]

Then I'll save you the pain. That quote has been attributed to Benjamin Franklin and later, to Dale Carnegie. An earlier version, "He that complies against his will, Is of the same opinion still" comes from Samuel Butler (1612-1660).

All three of whom were notably better performers than ML.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 14, 2013 11:58PM)
Paul;

Impress your friend with one of these, buy one and perform it on him

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/3652
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Dec 15, 2013 04:23AM)
I've used one of those and it was a lot of fun!

A couple of problems, if you'll forgive me for being serious:
It produces what is obviously an optical illusion/anomaly which has nothing to do with hypnosis.
It doesn't work for everybody, so we're back to square one.


[quote]
On 2013-12-15 00:58, Howie Diddot wrote:
Paul;

Impress your friend with one of these, buy one and perform it on him

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/3652


[/quote]
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Dec 15, 2013 12:23PM)
Personally I could care less. I think I was about two years into my career when I realised I was not there to prove hypnosis to those who don't believe, but to use it with those who do and then let the rest make their minds up and think whatever. I haven't read any of the other posts here, these are just my thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Howie Diddot (Dec 25, 2013 04:07PM)
[quote]

[quote]
On 2013-12-15 00:58, Howie Diddot wrote:
Paul;

Impress your friend with one of these, buy one and perform it on him

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/3652


[/quote]

On 2013-12-15 05:23, quicknotist wrote:
I've used one of those and it was a lot of fun!

A couple of problems, if you'll forgive me for being serious:
It produces what is obviously an optical illusion/anomaly which has nothing to do with hypnosis.
It doesn't work for everybody, so we're back to square one.


[/quote]

I forgive you for being serious, but don't let it happen again; and to answer your serious question,

The Shrinking and Growing Head Illusion is a magic trick; hypnosis, or an optical illusion only makes a difference to us.

I don't think the audience knows the difference as long as they are entertained

That being said and off topic from the original post, to get back on topic, Hypnosis is real and that people can be manipulated by being hypnotized
Message: Posted by: hypnofande (Jan 1, 2014 02:02PM)
Thanks to everyone for sharing their views here (and those of you who have PM'd me as well). This is a really fascinating forum and it's great to hear views of hypnotists with a lot of experience in the field. I know it is a banned topic here about whether hypnosis is real/fake etc. However, I did wonder, purely out of curiosity, what would "convince" someone (something they would consider "proof") that hypnosis was real? Would it be something as simple as having someone forget the number 3 and then count 6 fingers on their right hand? Or have them forget their name? Or perhaps have people see things that aren't there (and vice versa). If people say that something isn't real surely they must have some idea what would convince them to change their mind? I'm not getting into the real/fake argument - just asking what phenomenon would people consider valid proof.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 1, 2014 02:29PM)
Obviously nothing will convince you it is not real. What makes you think they are any less resolute in their belief?
Message: Posted by: hypnofande (Jan 1, 2014 03:32PM)
Hi Danny, Not sure I understand your logic. I gave a few examples of possible proof and was wondering what people would be expecting to convince them either way. I'd say that not being able to count or remember your name were at the very least indicative that some sort of process was at work. As far as I can make out "they" would say that people are lying and can really count or remember their name and are just "pretending" or "playing along".
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 1, 2014 03:35PM)
First off why bother?

Second of all it will never convince them. NEVER.

So why bother?

What is obvious to one is a load of crap to another. Which brings me to the final point. Why bother?
Message: Posted by: hypnofande (Jan 1, 2014 03:52PM)
Hi Danny, I see you are of the opinion that some people can never be convinced and will never change their mind. I was just wondering what "proof" they would expect to see which they haven't yet seen. I was interested to hear from anyone who'd be honest enough to admit what sort of demonstration or phenomena would at the very least make them question their original opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 1, 2014 04:19PM)
Look at how invested you are in this opinion. Then tell me you think someone will change.
Message: Posted by: C_Biskit (Jan 2, 2014 02:30AM)
I read the OP story and some of the shorter responses. I agree that it is pointless waiting and wanting to debate. It seems like right now you are a Bible pusher and he is an Atheist. If he is a good friend then you will be able to agree to disagree. But if the remarks that he makes about hypnotism and they bother you that much let him know. And if he keeps doing it after you ask him to stop, he isn't a very good friend. You can always make new and better business contacts, it seems like you are afraid of hurting his feelings because he will take it personally and not do business with you. Kind of seems like an a hole to me. Personally if someone was making me this mad to make a thread on the Café I wouldn't deal with them. Like I said, there is more business contacts out there and if you lose this one it won't be the end of the world. Seems like a silly thing though to argue about. I think you know what you should do or what your gut is telling you to do.

Best
Andy
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 2, 2014 06:39PM)
The shrinking head illusion does have some parallels to hypnosis. Its a great example how your perception and senses can be manipulated. It is an induction of a sort that takes you from what you would experience as "normal" to something you "see" which isn't normality.

Hypnosis is just another way to achieve that. On stage you see an amplified version of the people. you see them more animated, more imaginative and experiencing hallucinations negative hallucinations etc Their ability to respond to suggestions heightened way beyond every day normal occurrence. An expanded "trance" personality. If this were not the case and people were just going along it would be boring no one would be convinced and no one would buy tickets.

.

However its just an example of how the mind works only heightened and out of an every day context. The same process happens all the time on a daily basis in every interaction you make.

Those that do hypnosis and believe it doesn't exist are set up or conditioned to have a negative hallucination. To ignore ANY evidence that hypnosis exists filter it out and hold on to their belief that it doesn't.... And I can almost hear (auditory hallucination of mine)them saying because I believe I can only see that it exists. Either way its a double bind this process is around us all the time we can't escape it. Whether you perceive the belief of the existence of hypnosis exists or doesn't = has the head shrunk or has it grown? The real answer is - it depends upon how you have been per-conditioned. Stage hypnosis is just a brilliant example of how perception can be manipulated through conditioning.

Its not a question of whether it exists or not its more like if it doesn't exist then neither do we
Message: Posted by: Vlad Grigorescu (Jan 3, 2014 06:17PM)
DING DONG!
You: I want to talk to you about our lord savior Jesus Christ.
Him: I'm an atheist, there is no God or Jesus.
You: But there is, you see, he did that and that, he really exists!
Him: No he didn't. And there is no he. You are insane.
You: I'm not, here, read this page from the bible.
...

What's next in your story?
That's the answer!
Message: Posted by: hypnofande (Jan 5, 2014 01:56PM)
When someone is hypnotised there is a whole range of phenomena you can demonstrate. They forget how to count, or forget their name, believe themselves to be a different gender etc etc. I don't know how that isn't enough for some people to indicate some sort of hypnosis is at play unless their only argument is that hypnotised people are "lying" or "just playing along".
Message: Posted by: Paul Budd (Jan 17, 2014 10:05AM)
I think dmkraig said everything that needs saying on this matter. I've only been hypnotized one time (and I had a very old-school psychologist acquaintance do it). I was completely aware of what was happening the entire time and can remember everything that happened. Funny thing about hypnosis: you can learn a lot about a person whenever you discuss hypnosis with them (as you, rather painfully, have learned).
Many smart, independent, control-freak types think the whole thing to be this big embarrasing "oh, you're such a schmuck 'cause you got hypnotized" -type arrangement. They're just showing their obtuse, ignorant sides. There is substantial evidence to indicate that people of LOW intelligence are very hard to hypnotize. Hypnosis is really little more than a state of deep concentration.....nothing more.
There is a gentleman in the greater Kansas City area who is both a mental health practitioner and a stage hypnotist.......I personally disagree with that approach. I think one needs to either be one or the other.....not both.

Since you asked for advice, here's mine: abandon this argument.....it will lead nowhere. If the person wishes to judge your "sanity" based on this......then he's "told you" a great deal already about himself. Maybe you're the one who should take inventory of your relationship with that person, and possibly re-calibrate.

Best of luck!!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 17, 2014 12:44PM)
Yes I agree. We further the cause of education by thinking of others who do not agree with us as "obtuse/ignorant". Good approach.

I agree. Abandon the "argument". BUT CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION! Why does it have to be everyone agrees? Why such entrenched positions? What a boring world it would be if everyone agreed.

But the arrogant pronouncement of others positions as ignorant or obtuse is probably what causes more than a large part of the problem.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 17, 2014 03:53PM)
There is no problem if you just walk away. Everyone is entitled to their own "reality". Just like operating on stage you don't have the time or need to hypnotize those less responsive I don't have the time to argue with someone who is skeptical. They are entitled to live in their own subjective reality. These days I just smile and only share my knowledge with those that are interested in joining me in my reality.

Who cares life is short.
Message: Posted by: Paul Budd (Jan 17, 2014 04:43PM)
[quote]
On 2014-01-17 13:44, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yes I agree. We further the cause of education by thinking of others who do not agree with us as "obtuse/ignorant". Good approach.

I agree. Abandon the "argument". BUT CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION! Why does it have to be everyone agrees? Why such entrenched positions? What a boring world it would be if everyone agreed.

But the arrogant pronouncement of others positions as ignorant or obtuse is probably what causes more than a large part of the problem.
[/quote]

Danny, it appears you've read little of the discussion here, so I'll bring you up to speed:

The gentleman who started this is seemingly distressed over his personal/business relationship with this person, and the issue/discussion seems to've sparked "bad blood" between them.....a careful reading of the other party's statements, etc. would provide clarity on that matter. I never said people who disagree with me are ignorant or obtuse. If you, sir, insist that the grass is blue and the sky is green those are obtuse, ignorant stances to take because the evidence indicates otherwise. This isn't a matter of everyone agreeing or not agreeing......this person is distressed over the other party's choice to ignore good, solid evidence about what hypsosis is/isn't....that's all.
"You have a right to your own opinion, but not your own facts." --a statement certainly uttered by someone arguably more intelligent than I and quite possibly less obtuse than you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 17, 2014 11:36PM)
Sure yea. More sarcasam.

There are some pretty good facts on the other side of the equasion. Sorry to break it to you. Your own belief does not validate hypnosis as FACT.

I happen to be in the camp of thinking it does exist. But that does not mean it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Science is science after all and a really sarcastic guy quoted a smart guy once saying you are not entitled to your own facts. Use all the sarcasm you like. It does not strengthen your arguement.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 18, 2014 09:08AM)
Actually I might be wrong and I am not trying to stir it up. I spoke to someone recently who is involved in research at a very high level not so much with hypnosis but has access to a huge scientific database. He is someone I am working with at the moment. And hes one of those guys that researches things before he starts working with someone.

According to him there is lots of research to suggest or conclude that hypnosis exists. Those that claim it doesn't are coming from a place of "being the expert" and leveraging their "qualifications" to form an opinion. He said there was no real research that concludes it doesn't exist.

Im not big on academic research so if any one has research that proves it doesn't exist I would like to run it by him. Just out of curiosity.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 20, 2014 06:48AM)
If you were big on academic research, you would be disappointed.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 20, 2014 10:50AM)
So would my clients.... I don't care about it. I am just curious to see if "my man" is right and that there is plenty of research that proves it exists but none that proves it doesn't. He is neutral has no real investment in hypnosis. he said he always looks into things when he works with someone. In fact he had read books in the past that said hypnosis was crap. And because he also works with scientists and has to protect his credibility he did some research.So he didn't really know until he looked at the academic research. Now he just accepts that it exists for the reasons above.

I don't care one way or another just curious if he is correct or not.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 20, 2014 11:38AM)
There is a lot of research on each side of those he issue. None of it conclusive. I find it fascinating how arrogant some get about their own entrenched position. Not you MPEG.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jan 20, 2014 12:35PM)
Academia is a waste of time in most cases after all its just academic!Who cares but if it makes someone feel better working with me then I guess its ok
I,m not going to argue. A better argument is who cares if it exists or not but does it have any value?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 20, 2014 12:49PM)
The placebo effect has value.
Message: Posted by: newcomer (Jan 29, 2014 12:48PM)
The original poster may be surprised to hear that a LOT (but by no means all) of stage hypnotists actually agree with his friend! I hope that doesn't traumatise him too much! But I agree. It really isn't worth arguing about and getting so intense about it to the point of ruining a relationship.