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Topic: Kreskin: Hypnosis or Just Suggestion
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Mar 13, 2014 03:35AM)
Donít you think that Kreskin is just playing fast and loose with wording when he says he doesnít use hypnosis, but just suggestion? Isnít it basically the same thing? Thought all hypnosis is suggestion.

So how does Kreskin get away with this bold claim that hypnosis doesnít work? And if he is not using hypnosis, then what techniques does he use?
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Mar 13, 2014 03:59AM)
Hippolyte Bernheim (1840-1919) the father of twentieth century hypnosis, famously said, ĎIt is suggestion that rules hypnotismí.

I suspect Kreskin adopts a non-state view of hypnosis. Possibly as something the subject is responsible for, or more accurately capable of, given the right instruction.

Some commentators go as far to say that because hypnosis cannot be proved to be a unique state, hypnosis does not exist. Brain imaging can identify physiological markers that make clear a distinction between someone who is responding to a specific suggestion and someone who is simply acting. However no consistent and reliable evidence exists for an independent hypnotic or trance state.

It has been argued that in trying to understand hypnosis, state versus non-state theories only offer us a false dichotomy. We might do better to accept the lack of evidence for a unique state, and instead focus on special process, social-psychological or cognitive-behavioural models. These more modern views of hypnosis can describe it's subjective nature as points on a continuum, rather than as a dichotomy.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 13, 2014 06:14AM)
Hypnosis has been mentioned 12 times above in those two short posts which is pretty impressive for something that doesn't "exist".

Who says hypnosis has to be a unique or supernatural state? What is a unique state anyway? Every state experienced is "experienced" as unique anyway.

According to one dictionary description of trance is :

a half-conscious state, seemingly between sleeping and waking, in which ability to function voluntarily may be suspended.
2.
a dazed or bewildered condition.
3.
a state of complete mental absorption or deep musing.

So wheres the argument trance exists its an everyday ordinary function..

Here is the thing although we believe we are - we are never really fully conscious and in control of our behaviour and the results we create. Unconscious influences affect us on a daily basis. What you see on stage is just an example of how our minds work naturally only an amplified out of context example. So if we are semi conscious at the best if not all the time in other words most of who we are what we perceive and how we react is driven unconsciously then we are constantly in a trance of some sort.

Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states. A trance state is just the current configuration of reality.

When you get into all this theory mumbo jumbo and scientific research trying to prove something that really has no value you take your eye off where you can actually use hypnosis to effect real change and create real results. You tie your head in knots and minimalize your ability as a "hypnotist".......

Here is an example recent client going out of business marriage on the rocks losing his home. Recruitment agent billed £6000 in the first two months of 2013. This year he billed over £40 000. Example of "unconscious amplification".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAqm5o1WNYU&feature=share


Kreskin draws attention to himself by the claims he makes maybe he even believes them. But for something that doesn't exist it sure ha been good to him over the years.
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Mar 13, 2014 11:37AM)
Thanks mindpunisher, I agree. I had an argument with someone a few months trying to tell them that we are not in control of our behaviors. As Americans, we seem to think we have freedoms and no one can control us, but thatís far from the truth.

To control anyone subconsciously, all you have to do is get them emotionally charged up and you have entered their subconscious. Anyone can do this, itís called pushing someoneís buttons. But, because we are suppose to be in control, we donít acknowledge this.

As far as Kreskin, he states that everything is suggestion. What advance techniques is he using? Itís suggestion, but itís also hypnosis. Thatís like saying I am eating an apple, but not a fruit. You are eating both. I think he does this to make himself standout from the rest who does the same thing.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 13, 2014 12:59PM)
The problem is that language doesn't really explain much. And when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more we dismiss it even further.

We don't even react to abstract language the same we attach our own constructs experiences to the meanings. In fact the more abstract we get the less it really means in terms of a collective reality. In other words we are stuck in our own trances. Why we all see different things and argue endlessly. The bigger and more complex the words used to try explain away hypnosis the less they actually say and the more they leave up to the imagination. Tie your head in knots.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 13, 2014 02:26PM)
You are getting caught up in terms that mean nothing as to how the ends are accomplished. What he tells the audience isnnot necessarily the truth of the matter. Hypnosis or suggestion often is a distinction without a difference.

Why get caught up in definitions?

Your example of pushing buttons is not quite what you make it. Freedom has nothing to do with manipulation. All you do is muddy things up quite badly when you do this. Occam's razor and all that.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 13, 2014 04:09PM)
You can argue about definitions or the polarity of research or you can focus on what you want to create using and developing what you know. Personally I find the latter much more valuable and a lot more interesting. It has taken me down roads and enabled me to do things most people think are not possible.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Mar 13, 2014 04:56PM)
[quote]
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more, we dismiss it even further.
[/quote]

[quote]
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states.
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Mar 13, 2014 08:55PM)
Thanks all for your input. I enjoy the discussion.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Mar 14, 2014 03:25AM)
Kreskin has been on this tip for decades and it really doesn't seem to matter. There's still plenty of work out there for all of us.
Well... some of us anyway...
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 14, 2014 08:39PM)
I am with Kreskin - and many other greats. I don't believe hypnosis, if it exists, has anything whatsoever to do with what goes on on stage. If you need to hypnotise them you are doing something wrong. A stage show is an exercise in compliance. Whether you use suggestion, hypnosis, cueing, it techniques like those described in Telepathy in Action is immaterial. All that matters is the result.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 15, 2014 08:32AM)
[quote]
On Mar 13, 2014, Anthony Jacquin wrote:
[quote]
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
when you put the word "just" in front anything the meaning diminishes even more, we dismiss it even further.
[/quote]

[quote]
On Mar 13, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
Hypnosis is just the process of manipulating shaping and leading trance states.
[/quote]
[/quote]

in this case "just" is put in front of process not "hypnosis" in order to position hypnosis as part of our every day functioning. Nothing supernatural or something to be proved or not. When you do this you then see the patterns in everyday events and are then able to use hypnosis with much more leverage and in many more applications with much better results. Because the focus goes from "is hypnosis real" or "is this person hypnotized" to "how can I make this result happen". Hypnosis then becomes "just" a tool( diminishing the event of hypnosis to a tool- not diminishing its value or the complexity of what might or might not be happening) . This is like having a forum of joiners arguing whether a hammer exists or not. Its ridiculous.

To say hypnosis is "just" suggestion or placebo diminishes both these terms which are a lot more complex. Hypnosis actually amplifies both these things which can actually make physical changes in people. Something very powerful and still not fully understood by science. Learning to be even more skilled at doing that is something that shouldn't be diminished in my opinion. If you do then you don't bother learn how to leverage this "process" in ways that can really leave you stunned by the results.


"just" in this case diminishes the positioning and leads the focus to where the most value is to be gained from learning how to apply hypnosis.

If you are a performing hypnotist the hypnosis is just part of what you do in order to give people an experience of being entertained.
If you do therapy or are a performance coach then hypnosis is just a tool the goal is to give your client desired result.

None of the above arguing no amount of reading research papers learning fancy words or terms will make you any better. learning to USE something that obviously exists or we wouldn't be here is what matters.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 15, 2014 09:09AM)
[quote]
On Mar 14, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
I am with Kreskin - and many other greats. I don't believe hypnosis, if it exists, has anything whatsoever to do with what goes on on stage. If you need to hypnotise them you are doing something wrong. A stage show is an exercise in compliance. Whether you use suggestion, hypnosis, cueing, it techniques like those described in Telepathy in Action is immaterial. All that matters is the result.
[/quote]

So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 15, 2014 11:49AM)
Compliance suggests that we go along and obey and its sort of a conscious decision to do so. How does someone decide or obey to have complete amnesia? Especially when its never suggested? Going by the definition below it doesn't cover my experience of what happens on stage. There maybe compliance at certain stages but its not the whole picture...


compliance
  Use Compliance in a sentence
com∑pli∑ance
[kuhm-plahy-uhns] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of conforming, acquiescing, or yielding.
2.
a tendency to yield readily to others, especially in a weak and subservient way.
3.
conformity; accordance: in compliance with orders.
4.
cooperation or obedience: Compliance with the law is expected of all
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 15, 2014 08:20PM)
[quote]
On Mar 15, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.
[/quote]
No, MP. I am saying I couldn't care less whether it exists. All I care about is getting a good show going.

When I stopped trying to hypnotise people, and started trying to get them to follow my instructions, my success rate improved dramatically. I structure the show in such a way as to ensure that I have a panel of people who will do what I say automatically, without any thought on their part. What you call that is open to debate, but I don't believe it involves any altered state.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 15, 2014 11:54PM)
Not a bad way to put it.
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Mar 16, 2014 01:33AM)
So, Tony, to do this, you still follow the same stage hypnotic script, or are you cutting to the chase and just doing the tricks?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 16, 2014 05:55AM)
[quote]
On Mar 16, 2014, mtpascoe wrote:
So, Tony, to do this, you still follow the same stage hypnotic script, or are you cutting to the chase and just doing the tricks?
[/quote]
Generally a reduced two minute induction and no deepener. But very occasionally straight in. Look at the electric chair routine of Barry & Stuart or Paul Daniels. Straight in.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 16, 2014 06:04AM)
[quote]
On Mar 15, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]
On Mar 15, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
So what you are saying Tony is it does exist its just that you would rather call it compliance.
[/quote]
No, MP. I am saying I couldn't care less whether it exists. All I care about is getting a good show going.

When I stopped trying to hypnotise people, and started trying to get them to follow my instructions, my success rate improved dramatically. I structure the show in such a way as to ensure that I have a panel of people who will do what I say automatically, without any thought on their part. What you call that is open to debate, but I don't believe it involves any altered state.
[/quote]

Everything is open to debate doesn't mean its worth debating. I don't call amnesia amnesia it is amnesia.You can debate but it doesn't change the fact its amnesia.And I remember you used to put a lot of value on academic research well a simple search on google comes up with pages of research on the subject. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=academic+research+amnesia+and+hypnosis&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=SYUlU4LKGMTL5AbFsoDQDw&gws_rd=cr


"get them to follow the instructions" will hypnotize them. So you moved your focus from worrying about whether they were hypnotized or not to getting them to do what you want them to. And guess what you got them to do what you wanted them to.

that's my whole point if you focus on where you want to go you will find a way of getting there. That is the basic notion that will allow you to get better results using hypnosis(or any tool) and allow you to develop into new applications.

And so it continues in circles...

So who cares time stop flogging a dead horse. Does flogging really exist? or is just reinforcing a pointless act? Anybody up for a debate about it?
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 16, 2014 07:20AM)
MP, I am open to the possibility that I may be hypnotising people without realising it! There was a time I wasn't open to that possibility. You are making progress on me.

I will have a look at the research once this crazy weekend is behind me. Gigs, gigs, gigs...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 16, 2014 07:29AM)
Great to hear you are getting a lot of gigs! I meet next week with the owner of a First Division professional football team who just lost 5-0 this weekend.... Which means he will be even more "suggestible" to getting my help. Firstly for himself then for his manager and team. We will be focusing on "goals" literally :-)
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Mar 16, 2014 06:41PM)
MP, there is a hurling team over here that needs you. At half time this afternoon, as I was going to one gig, they were behind by four goals and fifteen points, to four points (27 to 4 for those who don't follow the sport). They might want to talk to you. But as it was my team that beat them, perhaps not...

Seriously, best of luck with it. It would be an exciting project.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 17, 2014 05:33AM)
If it goes ahead I will be documenting it via video etc. If I get the results with this one it will be online. But lets not get ahead of myself.

I'll talk to any team sport or business so long as they have the resources to get me involved.
Message: Posted by: quicknotist (Mar 17, 2014 01:56PM)
Given only the information in your post, I've narrowed it down to a team and then a small number of people, so you want to hope and pray they don't put too much value on privacy.

[quote]
On Mar 16, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:
Great to hear you are getting a lot of gigs! I meet next week with the owner of a First Division professional football team who just lost 5-0 this weekend.... Which means he will be even more "suggestible" to getting my help. Firstly for himself then for his manager and team. We will be focusing on "goals" literally :-)
[/quote]
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Mar 18, 2014 11:22AM)
It will be documented with video if we go ahead. Which will be available online. There are two more teams I am talking to just now. So it may or may not happen hopefully with one of them. Either way it will be online eventually. unless I don't get the results...its just at the talking stages but I would at expect at least one will go ahead.


Got a few things on the go plus one very big project with "Advanced Mind". This will be amazing if it comes off.
Message: Posted by: Gordon the discombobulator (Apr 5, 2014 06:34AM)
The goal is to get heightened compliance or to motivate them.
The reason we want to achieve this goal is to either entertain or create (hopefully) positive changes in someone's life.
The subject thinks it is the hypnosis that is making them comply or they think hypnosis makes them feel better.
In fact they are complying or feeling motivated BECAUSE they are agreeing to the process of being hypnotised.
Hypnosis is simply a way of confirming and deepening their compliance.

But we don't always have to use traditional hypnosis to achieve the same results.
Sometimes they actually believe they hype that we build up regarding our 'special powers.'
most people act differently when talking to a person in a position of authority.
Some people are actually influenced by hidden commands and NLP structures.
Some people want to comply because of (stage) fright or they don't want to dissapoint their peers by backing out.

It does not really matter if hypnosis exists or even what it is.
We should use it like a doctor might use a placebo pill - because it gets the results we/they want.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Apr 5, 2014 06:50AM)
By the way NLP is just another name for hypnosis. Bandler coined it because in Arizona the state where he was practicing hypnosis you need a medical license. Thaty was one of the main reasons LP came about.

Hypnosis and compliance are two different things look up the dictionary.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 5, 2014 06:44PM)
I thought NLP was just another way of saying a load of crap.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Apr 6, 2014 05:22AM)
Actually the truth is there are some really powerful and useful stuff in NLP. The problem is there are a lot of those claiming to use NLP when they don't ie mentalists magicians who read a book and think they know what it is. You can't get it from a book. Then there are loads of business training companies who just like using it as a buzz word.
Then there are lots of crappy "practitioners" who have been through a crappy training by a company that were trained by another crappy training company who "bought " the right to sell certificates then passed that right on for more money.

So NLP has become a term for crap.

But there are some good training companies out there and there are some really good techniques and processes that come under the heading NLP theres just not that many people who are skilled enough to use them. Getting a certificate is like being handed a bag of sophisticated power tools and told to go and build a house. With no training in how to build a house
Message: Posted by: Marmen (Jul 22, 2014 11:28AM)
How odd that I am agreeing with Danny again. I think NLP is an abbreviation for "Not a Lot of Plausibility". In other words a load of crap. Just like hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jul 22, 2014 01:54PM)
Mark you just can't stop can you? Careful Mike week be along in a second to report you.
Message: Posted by: Marmen (Jul 22, 2014 05:57PM)
Oh, he's too busy fighting with Tony at the moment!
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Jul 24, 2014 06:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2014, Marmen wrote:
How odd that I am agreeing with Danny again. I think NLP is an abbreviation for "Not a Lot of Plausibility". In other words a load of crap. Just like hypnosis. [/quote]

But that's the problem with this forum lots of ( not everyone) but this forum is full of people with opinions they know absolutely nothing about.
Message: Posted by: Marmen (Jul 24, 2014 06:21PM)
I know a lot about scamming people. So I know it is a load of crap. Besides I saw one of the founders walking round a psychic fair wearing a pony tail and I did not approve. Apart from the pony tail I took one look at him and knew he was a scam artist. It takes one to know one, after all. I am quite sure he and the other fellow got together in a pub and said "Lets invent a pseudo science full of standard wisdom and gobbledygook, use lots of big words to sound scientific and market it and make loads of money from all the daft people out there who will believe in anything"

And they did. And I believe one of them was accused of murdering somebody or other. I think he got off though. Perhaps he used NLP to influence the jury. However, somehow I find murder suspects to be not very credible. A bit like NLP come to think of it.
Message: Posted by: JonChase (Aug 1, 2014 06:35PM)
Kreskin is very good at what he does. Way better than most entertainers he is still around, has been featured on. TV in both America and the UK. Most Americans who claim world wide notoriety have never been heard of outside of the community anywhere except their own country. I remember Kreskin on the box over here when I was a kid.

I think he was silly doing the reward to prove hypnosis, too close to Randi, and as for hypnosis, the result is all we need. A good hypnotist gets results beyond most regardless of states or brain imaging.

Many wannabes would do well to emulate Kreskin who is a god among men.
Message: Posted by: PaulPacific (Aug 4, 2014 10:26PM)
Kreskin has always been my greatest influence (outside of Corinda's book).

Kreskin once lamented not so much about the "reality" of hypnosis, but rather the unfairness of the US legal system.

He said, "I am absolutely certain about this. I was sued by a hypnotist in the 1980s because I claimed nobody had ever been put into a hypnotic trance. Itís entirely suggestion. Theyíre not faking, but they are responding to suggestion consciously and are well aware of what theyíre doing. I won the case. But in the U.S. there is no justice in the courtroom. In England, if you win, the other side pays your expenses. So she lost the case, and I still had to pay $112,000."
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 5, 2014 05:51AM)
I find that a tough one since cognitive science tells us our conscious mind only makes up around 2% of our mental processes. While some people are conscious while "performing" in trance or having being conditioned through compounded suggestion (whatever you want to call it) Some clearly aren't. ?How many times have you seen someone "wake up" and realise what they have been doing -- only to be "put back in" again?

I also think kreskin is brilliant though.
Message: Posted by: PaulPacific (Aug 5, 2014 01:31PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2014, mindpunisher wrote:

I also think kreskin is brilliant though. [/quote]

No argument from me on this point.