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Topic: Ukraine v Russia
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 04:06AM)
It seems that things are coming to a boiling point now. It looks about evens to me on the Russians invading again today.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 04:13AM)
It is looking inevitable isn't it.

Tsar Vladimir I.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 06:12AM)
I guess it depends on how many Russians die in the battles to retake the police stations and so on.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 13, 2014 06:35AM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, Destiny wrote:
It is looking inevitable isn't it.

Tsar Vladimir I. [/quote]
Not as simple as that IMO.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 07:31AM)
The Russian protesters are now under siege at Gestapo HQ by the NAZI's who staged a military coup in Kiev according to the Russians, who have sent Kiev a final demand to pay the gas bill.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 13, 2014 09:15AM)
A perspective different from the MSM:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/11/ukraine-lies-and-realities/
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 09:19AM)
I admit to simplifying immensely Landmark, but what do you think of the situation?

It does appear from the little I know of Russian history that the people themselves seem sympathetic to authoritarian rule, and approve of an expansionary Russia. I know it's not all that PC to attribute characteristics to a nation of people as a whole, but I've just never noticed a real yearning for democracy in Russians in general - which recent politician do they dislike the most? Gorbachev - the guy that gave them democracy and gave away their territorial conquests.

I read an article a few days ago about when Putin first took over - he threw out the painting of Lenin in his Kremlin office and sent the help to find a painting of Peter the Great to replace it.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 09:41AM)
Interesting article and no doubt some truth in it but the author starts off badly by trying to portray Yanukovych in a good light which is a bit hard to accept after the poisoning of Yushchenko years ago and then the treatment of the politician with the peasant braids (can't remember her name) more recently. He started out as the puppet for a dictator (Kuchma) and seems to have finished his career as puppet for another (Putin).

I'm also never convinced by all that 'nostalgia for the good old days of dictatorship' nonsense that gets trotted out a few years down the track after every revolution - life is uncertain and is that way in a democracy or dictatorship - there may have been certainty in some areas for some of the time under Stalin for example, but then again if he suddenly got ****** off with one region, the entire populace might suddenly find themselves shipped off to Chechnya or Siberia.

Finally the author seems to think the US is still fighting the Cold War with the USSR - while I've got no doubt the US wants to be the primary, if not sole, arbiter of influence on the planet, I suspect it's focus on the USSR has lessened quite a bit since the USSR ceased to exist, along with the politburo. The US has for a century judged most other authoritarian regimes less harshly than communist ones.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 10:08AM)
I know an ex KGB General, he is very much like Dudley More, in character and looks. I don't think he likes authority much, as he killed a couple of KGB Generals.

As for Gorbachev, say no more. http://www.gcint.org/news/gorbachev%E2%80%99s-address-club-rome


Putin serves the same corrupt ruling Club of Rome/ oligarchy that Obama serves.

An interesting article indicating that Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin wants to build a Eurasian economic union. This is exactly the scenario proposed years ago by the Club of Rome in its subdivision of the world into 10 economic units. If you follow the link below, (Club of Rome), you will be taken to a map that shows these 10 economic regions with Russia, the former Soviet states and parts of Asia all comprising this proposed union, (region 5 on the map).

http://signpostsofthetimes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/putin-sets-sights-on-eurasian-economic.html


I like a lot authority myself. Ever since I was a kid I always wanted to be a boss.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 10:16AM)
Hard as I try, I can't imagine Dudley Moore killing KGB generals, but I can imagine him participating in the Club of Rome, along with the Two Ronnies and Steptoe Senior. I can't decide if Peter Sellers should be in charge, or maybe get a bit modern and put Jo Brand in control.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 10:18AM)
Shall we further agree?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 13, 2014 01:18PM)
I agree that the article is over the top in its praise for Yanukovych. I don't believe however that Putin is expansionist. I think he is very rational--but like the leader of any world power he does not relish the idea of having a strong opposing force on one of his country's borders. As an example, if Mexico or Canada were to become strongly anti-US, I think you'd see immediate action taken by the US to reverse that as well. That doesn't mean the US would necessarily want to take over Canada with all the attendant headaches.

The important thing about the situation is that basically, the US provoked a change in the status quo by supporting the right wing extremist nationalists in the Ukraine. This was the breaking of a deal that had been made when the Soviet Union fell, and the new borders of the constituent countries were being hammered out. The agreement was for a separate Ukraine, but understandably with no NATO interference as a threat to the border of Russia. By breaking this agreement the US, the US predictably provoked the Russian leadership. There was really very little else Putin could do but respond with a strong message that they weren't going to allow an enemy regime on their border. This is not a matter of right or wrong; it is just a matter of common sense.

When two mafia families make a deal about their territory, we should not be surprised if one family responds if the other one horns in on their territory. That said, I think Putin has shown remarkable restraint, and the US remarkable hypocrisy. When Yanukovych was overthrown in a military coup by fascists, the US said nothing. When Putin forces an election in Crimea--which unlike the Ukraine is genuinely majority pro-Russian--the Russians are denounced severely by the US.

Up to now, the US feels that the provocation of Putin has not cost them anything and will continue to do so as long as they see it that way. There are signs however, that they realize that Putin's role in the world market cannot be disentangled so easily, and that in the end the fascist government in the Ukraine will not serve the Western agenda either. The nature of the internationality of world resources makes it difficult to betray Putin completely--he still holds many cards, and what I think we'll see in weeks to come, is bluster from US officials in their public pronouncements, but backing off privately.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 01:41PM)
Two Mafia families eh

More like Tweedledum and Tweedledee Agreed to have a battle!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 13, 2014 05:34PM)
Unfortunately, unlike with Tweedledum and Tweedledee, masses of other innocent people have to give up their own lives when the clowns play.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2014 06:05PM)
Ukraine vs. Russia?

Russia.

Despite the slightly muted outrage from my country and others', it seems that Russia will nick most, if not all of Ukraine.

Viva Putin: that weak, arrogant ****.

What this shows in painful relief is that Europe, my location, is a *****.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 06:18PM)
Landmark,

That makes a lot of sense - best explanation I've seen.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2014 06:22PM)
Destiny, what do you think of Putin?
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 06:24PM)
I don't like dictators of any stripe.

Putin is one nasty bit of work.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 13, 2014 06:33PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:

What this shows in painful relief is that Europe, my location, is a *****. [/quote]


[IMG]http://avatarmaker.net/free-avatars/avatars/animated_214/gray_cat_thinking_animated_avatar_100x100_62909.gif[/IMG]

"Speak for yourself, sir!"
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 13, 2014 06:43PM)
Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee are not unlike but alike. Still, they have to settle their differences somehow don't they?

Some say, compar'd to Bononcini
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle
Strange all this Difference should be
'Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!

- John Byrom. Or so some say anyway.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2014 07:09PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, Chessmann wrote:

[IMG]http://avatarmaker.net/free-avatars/avatars/animated_214/gray_cat_thinking_animated_avatar_100x100_62909.gif[/IMG]

"Speak for yourself, sir!" [/quote]

I do.

By rights I should shoulder arms with Ukrainian citizens immediately. What a *****, I am sat at home merely commenting. Says it all.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 13, 2014 07:29PM)
Yeah, I kind of feel the same - often. Actually, I'm planning on going to Ukraine in the summer, and then again in the Fall. We'll see how those plans work out.

(I hope it was was clear that I was commenting solely on the cat taking offense at the 'cat term' being used negatively) :)
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Apr 13, 2014 07:33PM)
I know that. :-)

I'm also aware that you have links with there, as you have alluded to before. If I could be of use, I'd be glad to help.

In the meantime, do as much good as you can.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 13, 2014 09:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, Chessmann wrote:
Yeah, I kind of feel the same - often. Actually, I'm planning on going to Ukraine in the summer, and then again in the Fall. We'll see how those plans work out.

[/quote]
Hi Chessman. I think you mentioned in a different thread that you would be speaking to friends in Ukraine. Any word back from them about the amount of influence from Nazi-inspired groups among the protesters and new government officials?
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 13, 2014 09:44PM)
The ordinary people who risk their lives to try and make a better world for their kids always seem to get shafted in these things - look at the poor Egyptians - the exquisite choice of being bludgeoned by the army or the islamists.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 14, 2014 08:05AM)
Looks like it is all over bar the shouting. It seems Kiev have bottled it and caved in and Russia have won the battle for east Ukraine. Kiev have given in to the main demand of pro-Russian militants and carried out no attack so far.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 14, 2014 11:54AM)
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 13, 2014, Chessmann wrote:
Yeah, I kind of feel the same - often. Actually, I'm planning on going to Ukraine in the summer, and then again in the Fall. We'll see how those plans work out.

[/quote]
Hi Chessman. I think you mentioned in a different thread that you would be speaking to friends in Ukraine. Any word back from them about the amount of influence from Nazi-inspired groups among the protesters and new government officials? [/quote]

No, I didn't, and I didn't ask again. I know they are there, I just am not sure how much influence they have, currently. I certainly don't feel that influence on the society while I am there, and when I am talking with Ukrainians I work with (among whom this type of subject can come up easily) this kind of influence isn't on the radar screen.

However, much of my work has been in the west, and I am only in the last year or so s-l-o-w-l-y branching eastward.

My feeling is that the former Soviet countries are "behind the curve", time-wise, by a few decades in comparison to the west (in many ways), and am hopeful that over time the overtly negative influences will eventually fade greatly.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 14, 2014 12:53PM)
I certainly hope you're right. Do you mind saying what kind of work you do there?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 14, 2014 06:25PM)
I take teams of laypeople over to Ukraine (and Venezuela - I've really got the countries with no political issues, don't I :) ). The North Americans I take partner up with Ukrainian believers and interpreters and we share the Gospel with folks in the areas where the local Ukrainian leadership wants to start new groups of believers. That's the reader's digest version, but pretty much sums it up.
Message: Posted by: critter (Apr 14, 2014 09:32PM)
We're all going to die.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 14, 2014 11:19PM)
That's the way it's been working for a long long time, critter. Not exactly breaking news.
Message: Posted by: critter (Apr 14, 2014 11:24PM)
Just figured I'd give a brief summary of everything on the major news.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 15, 2014 05:47AM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7-ngmO_p8&t=28s
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 15, 2014 05:08PM)
Hold that result! Looks like they have gone and done something: "Shots were fired in Kramatorsk airport as Ukrainian special forces stormed in to reassert Kiev's control. As troop helicopters hovered above and tempers flared, a Ukrainian general was set upon by a group of local people incensed that two protesters had been injured, knocking off his military-issue fur hat and yelling, "Jail him."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/15/ukraine-armed-conflict-east
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 16, 2014 04:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 14, 2014, Chessmann wrote:
I take teams of laypeople over to Ukraine (and Venezuela - I've really got the countries with no political issues, don't I :) ). The North Americans I take partner up with Ukrainian believers and interpreters and we share the Gospel with folks in the areas where the local Ukrainian leadership wants to start new groups of believers. That's the reader's digest version, but pretty much sums it up. [/quote]

Just watching the latest on the news which is not looking good - starting to think Mr Putin intends taking all of Ukraine back, or at least the east and getting a compliant government in Kiev.

Chessman, do you get any sense of what ordinary Ukranians think of Russia when you're there? It's hard to trust what we get from the media because they of course are going to show us the most partisan people they can find.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 16, 2014 09:31AM)
The Freemasons are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.

The hand of the St. Stanislaus Order Masonic Lodge I fancy.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 16, 2014 10:44AM)
So if we remove the double negative, we get - the Freemasons are the men that will be blamed for 'some' or 'any' thing or just plain thing?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 16, 2014 11:54AM)
Destiny, the feeling I get is that there are 3 categories of Ukrainians with regard to their feelings toward Russia (I added Tatars after):

- those who have a mild or moderate or a real dislike of Russia (varies east to west, but you'll find these sentiments everywhere). I have to say though, that "anti-Russian-ness" never seemed to be a part of general daily life.

- those who prefer Ukraine, but are so tired of the rampant political corruption in daily life (goverment, police, etc...) that they are desperate for change, and they see Russia as an opportunity in these days for change. I think the years of corruption as a reason the Kiev protests started is much more significant than is generally credited.

- the Tatars of Crimea have an intense distrust of Russia, and many have fled to the west of Ukraine. I know some people who are housing some Tatars, temporarily.

- those who really do prefer Russia...though my feeling is that much of the pro-Russia stuff is being helped along and/or staged by Russia(ns). But no doubt there are Ukrainians with very pro-Russia sentiments.

I remember once being in a taxi in Kiev, and the driver was speaking Russian. I asked him if he was Russian, and his response was an instant and definite "Nyet!" :) There is also a very large metal arch in Kiev (think of a single McDonalds arch, but huge) that was built in Soviet times to symbolize unity between Ukraine and Russia. I good Ukrainian friend commented, but humorously, "A lot of people here would like to cut a gap in it." The more I type, the more I think it is rather like Republicans and Democrats! :)
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 16, 2014 05:53PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2014, Chessmann wrote:

I remember once being in a taxi in Kiev, and the driver was speaking Russian. I asked him if he was Russian, and his response was an instant and definite "Nyet!" :) [/quote]


:)

We've never had the sort of corruption in Australia where ordinary citizens are accosted every day by public officials for bribes etc and the idea of it terrifies me - I can't even haggle with a stall holder - I'd be hopeless in that environment - so I understand their frustration.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 16, 2014 06:07PM)
I failed above to mention the economy as a nagging (understatement) problem.

I remember a few years ago driving across the country to Kiev a small group of Ukrainians and I were stopped by the police. It was kind of out in the middle of nowhere. The policeman took our passports and just waited. We made busy by looking under the hood of the car (we'd been having a little car trouble, so the car's owner used the time to snoop around, and we stood around the car and chatted so that we looked unconcerned about the passports). Eventually the policeman gave them back and we went on our way. He had just been waiting for a bribe. Fortunately, he didn't press the matter when none was forthcoming.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 17, 2014 04:37AM)
Corruption, yes that is the root of the problem. When the Soviet Union came down then the Freemasonry were quick to move in and set up their lodges, to get the powers that be in to win the contracts, that's why and how its done. A few years back an MP submitted a bill entitled “On amendments to the Criminal Code of Ukraine”, according to which, membership of Freemason organizations, or any other organizations that require rituals and oaths of higher priority than the current law, must be punished by a jail sentence of up to three years. Ukraine is rich in minerals and the peasants ought to be rich but not because they have plundered by the Freemasonry. Clubbed to death, as they say. The Ukraine don't not need to be part Euro or Russia, who both are only their resources. All they need is to rid themselves of clubs as the man said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces
Message: Posted by: General_Magician (Apr 17, 2014 11:11PM)
Well, I am not much concerned honestly speaking for what happens in this part of the world. However, this caught my eye in the article:

[quote]Ukraine on Thursday disbanded an army unit that lost six armoured vehicles to pro-Russian militants, as Kiev's military reeled from a disastrous attempt to oust separatists in its eastern regions.

"The 25th parachute brigade, members of which showed cowardice and gave up their weapons, will be demobilised and the guilty servicemen brought before court," acting President Oleksandr Turchynov told parliament.

Ukraine's enfeebled army suffered a major embarrassment Wednesday as a much-hyped "anti-terrorist" operation to force pro-Moscow protesters out of a string of eastern towns descended into humiliating farce when separatists seized six armoured personnel carriers and forced another mechanised column of troops to disarm.[/quote]

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-disbands-army-unit-fiasco-push-east-144943083.html

My god, I wouldn't want to have that kind of dishonor and disgrace branded on me for the rest of my life that these soldiers who are being brought to court is going to have once the Ukrainians are finished with them. Of course, these soldiers are going to get what they deserve too. But it's not the sort of dishonor and disgrace any soldier would want to have. I would be pretty upset too if I were the Ukrainians. They certainly deserve better from their soldiers. I just commented on this part of the article because I know how important honor is among soldiers and doing the bidding of the nation that you serve.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 17, 2014 11:25PM)
Difficult to make a call on that - I saw a story somewhere that said they were recent conscripts or doing National Service and a young soldier guarding the tanks said they were not prepared to fire on their own people at the behest of Kiev, and that the Russians had offered them food, unlike their own superiors.

I don't know if there was any truth in the story, but while my sympathies lie with Ukraine, it's hard to understand why they would send inexperienced, unproven and unfed kids into a situation like this. It's not as though we're at the tail end of a long and exhausting conflict - surely they have highly experienced special services that would have been better deployed.
Message: Posted by: General_Magician (Apr 17, 2014 11:41PM)
Ukraine is a poor country which doesn't have a lot of resources to invest building an effective military. But then again, on the other hand, I know their are poor countries which have good soldiers. In many cases these same soldiers are also better than our own more pampered and soft soldiers that come from the more rich and developed Western nations. Poorer nations, because they lack resources for a high tech army, put more training into their individual soldiers because they have to rely less on firepower and technology and more on their infantry due to this lack of resources to spend on the military.

So, just because a nation is poor is not an excuse for lack of discipline and cowardice. The soldiers had a duty to follow orders and do as they are told and it probably would have helped to have experienced leadership if these conscripts lacked experience but I am not sure if the Ukrainians have experienced leadership in their services either. They might have a few old veterans from the Soviet Afghan War but many of them are long out of the services and too old to serve. However orders are orders and they failed to obey so now they should suffer the consequences which I am sure they will. The leadership (ie the superiors) of these soldiers should suffer more severe consequences than what consequences are meted out to the lower ranking conscript soldiers. Everything starts with the leadership and their leadership should be held to a higher standard.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2014 09:33AM)
Against the might of Russia, the Ukraine would be better off forming an underground resistance. Or small force, with one thought in mind: Kill Darius.
Message: Posted by: General_Magician (Apr 18, 2014 10:57AM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2014, tommy wrote:
Against the might of Russia, the Ukraine would be better off forming an underground resistance. Or small force, with one thought in mind: Kill Darius. [/quote]

Josip Broz Tito had and Bosnia still has a vast network of underground tunnels (from when Tito built them). When he told Stalin to go screw himself his plan was to arm every single man, woman and child with an AK and use the vast underground tunnels he built to wage a guerrilla campaign against any occupying Soviet force. I believe Tito would have tied up the Soviets just like he tied up the Nazis during World War II with partisan warfare. He knew what he was doing. I think Stalin was wise not to invade the former Yugoslavia at the time. Plus, you have the mountainous terrain of the former Yugoslavia in addition to the underground tunnels that Tito built. Ukraine would probably need a vast network of underground tunnels to resist any Russian invasion.