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Topic: Hopping halves/Sun and Moon?
Message: Posted by: giochi (Jan 14, 2004 11:28PM)
Most of my Hopping Half sets have been called "Hopping Half/Sun and Moon. Now I see Sun and Moon being sold, (alone).

What is the difference?
Message: Posted by: Full Effect (Jan 15, 2004 01:23AM)
Nothing.
Message: Posted by: eryanic (Jan 15, 2004 09:22AM)
Hey, any ideas for the Hopping Halves presentation? The only one I've seen is you tell the spectator that this is a 2 coin trick, then you put one coin in the pocket and ask them, "What color is left in my hand?", whether they say silver, or copper (doesn't matter), the magician says, "Wrong, this is a 2 coin trick".

Sort of cool because when you say what color, they sort of pay more attention to what color is being taken out of the hand, rather than the number of coins.
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 15, 2004 12:45PM)
The Sun and Moon coins allow you to perform one of the most impressive and memorable pieces of coin magic ever created. Add the thoughtful routining of Fred Kaps or Roger Klause and you have a stunning bit of magic worthy of the most exacting professionals.

The original handling featured a stunning visible transformation/transposition decades before "3 Fly" came along. The routine is just fine as originally written, in Bobo's. The revised edition. Fred Kaps' routine is available in his lecture notes (good luck finding this) and Roger Klause's "Soleil et Lune" is hiding in plain sight in Richard's Almanac.

The Hopping Half set allows dealers to sell beginners twice as many gaffs as they need to pull off a lackluster effect with looming presentational pitfalls.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 15, 2004 01:04PM)
[quote]
...The routine is just fine as originally written, in Bobo's. The revised edition.
[/quote]
What is the routine called in Bobo's?
Message: Posted by: Jgriff (Jan 15, 2004 01:20PM)
I bought Johnson's stand alone "Sun and Moon" coin. The difference is that you don't get the Johnson E.S or the English Penny E.S that comes with the Hopping Half set.

The "Sun and Moon" coin is perfect for doing a spellbound routine. Imagine showing a silver coin in spellbound position, it then changes to a copper coin, and you can show the copper coin front to back and it is the only coin in your hand.

Another great "Sun and Moon" routine can be found in Doug Brewer's book [i]The Unexpected Visitor[/i] called EZ Triple Wilcoin.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 15, 2004 01:33PM)
I believe that a sun and moon coin is a c/s coin with an e.p. sh***. Is this correct? I've never really known the exact definition myself. I've also never used it that way.

I do like Doug's book, [i]The Unexpected Visitor[/i] and the EZTripleWildCoin is about the only thing in there I have not persued. I'll have to take a look tonight.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 15, 2004 03:10PM)
[quote]
On 2004-01-15 14:33, Frank Starsini wrote:
I believe that a sun and moon coin is a c/s coin with an e.p. sh***. Is this correct?[/quote]
Not exactly. It's like a Johnson Products' C/S/B with an English penny in place of the Chinese coin and a Kennedy half/English penny in place of the Mexican 20 peso/Kennedy half.

The big advantage (over the c/s coin with an e.p. sh*** you suggest) is that you can show it as an English penny all around, very slowly; you can even do a coin roll with it.

[quote]
On 2004-01-15 13:45, Curtis Kam wrote:
The Hopping Half set allows dealers to sell beginners twice as many gaffs as they need to pull off a lackluster effect with looming presentational pitfalls.
[/quote]
Too true! I've never liked the you're-such-an-idiot-you're-not-paying-attention-I'll-do-it-again-more-slowly presentation for anything—Hopping Half, Coins Through Table, Oil and Water—anything.

However, with a little thought you can come up with some unique presentations in the yes-you're-right-but-now-it's-changed-back-for-this-really-good-reason vein that are very entertaining. I stumbled across one; if I ever let another magician see it my magic coach (known as my "sensai" at the local sushi restaurant) will slay me.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 15, 2004 10:31PM)
That means I don't have one. Now I need to get one of those too.

How can one read Curtis' post up there and not want a sun/moon coin? Where can I get one?

We're all spending thousands of dollars on a drawer full of coins that aren't worth $20 on the street. Can't even buy a soda with any of this stuff.

When will the insanity end???
Message: Posted by: jimisolo (Jan 15, 2004 11:46PM)
Eryanic,

I've always had issues with the "packaged" presentation of Hopping Halves. I was discussing this a few days ago on another thread and suggested a different theme that I currently use. After several members offering me a lot of positive feedback, I decided to just go ahead and post the whole thing. If interested, you can find it [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=55124&forum=45&0]here[/url].

Hope you like it, or it at least sparks a different train of thought in the handling of this particular effect. Let me know.

BTW, I would LOVE to find the Kaps routine for this!!! :goodluck:
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 16, 2004 02:29PM)
Frank,

I think Bobo used the title "the Sun and Moon". You're right about the nature of the gaff in the abstract, but the sun and moon sets are machined closer. The "c/s" part is thinned enough for the entire package to look exactly like an EP. You can roll it, and even place it on a spectator's hand (but don't invite inspection). The routine in Bobo's (rev. ed.) uses the Goshman pinch. The Klause routine changes the nature of the gaffs so that you don't need the pinch.

Sorry, I have yet to see a really good S&M set in dollar sized coins, and even if there was one, the GP would make the angles dicey.

David Neighbors has published some very clever applications for the S&M gaff. It is also used in "The Protean Coin" in Bobo's, and would make a useful addition to a triple-changs spellbound routine.

I applaud the efforts of those who have fixed the presentational problems inherent in "Hopping Half". I still wonder, though, why bother? There are a lot of fine routines out there that aren't "fixer-uppers". The true measure of a routine is not how much you were able to improve it, but what you're left with when you're done.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 16, 2004 03:32PM)
[quote]
On 2004-01-16 15:29, Curtis Kam wrote:
I think Bobo used the title "the Sun and Moon".
[/quote]
[i][b]Sun and Moon[/b] by Albert Goshman[/i] it is.

[quote]
On 2004-01-16 15:29, Curtis Kam wrote:
I applaud the efforts of those who have fixed the presentational problems inherent in "Hopping Half". I still wonder, though, why bother? There are a lot of fine routines out there that aren't "fixer-uppers". The true measure of a routine is not how much you were able to improve it, but what you're left with when you're done.
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more. In the case I cited above, I had seen a performance of [i]Hopping Half[/i] and hated the presentation. When I later came up with a theme I wanted to illustrate magically, the mechanics of [i]Hopping Half[/i] fit perfectly. I hadn't had any intention of trying to improve a mediocre routine; as I said, I just stumbled into something beautiful.
Message: Posted by: jimisolo (Jan 16, 2004 03:35PM)
Curtis,

I bothered because I enjoyed the overall effect, but found flaw in the suggested presentation. I altered what I felt was "weak" for me and for my spectators. I also have a habit of working on things that I purchase that I perceive to not fit "me". As this is almost a constant from item to item, I really didn't see it as "going out of my way" with this little gem.

[quote]
The true measure of a routine is not how much you were able to improve it, but what you're left with when you're done. - Curtis
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more. I feel that I am left with an interesting and entertaining routine. :righton:

I was curious as to whether you've (or anyone else around here for that matter) tried out Lassen's Sun & Moon sets? I'm interested in purchasing his Hopping Halves set with the Morgans, so would be interested to find out if someone was displeased with the quality of his coins. So far I've heard nothing but GREAT things about his work, thus the question. :worry:

Thanks for the tip on the Neighbor's material. I'll have to add it to the old "wish list". :winker:
Message: Posted by: Slightly Offhand (Jan 16, 2004 04:02PM)
I have a Lassen Sun and Moon, among others, and I can't tell you any different from others that wax lyrical about Lassen gaffs....the Sun and Moon is literally undetectable by viewing, and takes some quite determined handling to realize that indeed, it is a gaffed coin. Of course, it also comes with a beautiful matching EP Sh..!
Message: Posted by: Daniel Faith (Jan 16, 2004 05:26PM)
I don't recommend the canned presentation for Hopping Halves. It's very weak and makes the spectator a dummy.

I use a presentation I call Lucky Coins. It's a story-type format about me...I am a superstitious guy who started carrying a lucky coin and then two because I have been trying to win the lottery unsuccessfully. I have it in writing if anyone wants it. Just PM me.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 16, 2004 06:31PM)
Interesting thread, guys!

My Hopping Half has sat in my coin box (a converted tool box) for years. I've never used it. One reason is, I've stopped doing tricks that make a fool of the spectator. My girlfriend (brutally honest) revealed that was one of my many flaws. People did not "feel good" at the end. "Show off" was the word.

A few years back, I adopted Jerry Andrus' philosophy of respect and courtesy (although it's not very "trendy" today) toward the spectator. As such, the Hopping Half turned me off.

"Why did you buy it, then?" you might ask. Well it came in one of three boxes of "stuff" I bought at a ridiculously discounted price, from our local magic shop when it closed. A whole bunch of Johnson stuff was in there: "Mint", "Silver Extraction", "Exp**** Sh***'s (EP, Kennedy 1/2, and quarter size), a C/S, and some others, I can't think of right now.

Now that I stumbled into this thread (now THAT'S going to leave a bruise) I am going to dig this out. I had heard of the Sun & Moon and had no idea...

Ever grateful, once again! :applause:

Doug
Message: Posted by: Daniel Faith (Jan 16, 2004 06:57PM)
Doug

So change the presentation! Nothing says that you have to do it the way the directions say? It's really better to use your own style anyway. Nothing like a self-working miracle!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 16, 2004 07:44PM)
As Curtis pointed out above, the sun/moon gaff allows for a STUNNING appearance/vanish of a silver coin between two copper coins. -> From a fan at the fingertips. Quite visual! Between this and the old Slippery Sam gimmick, I dare had fun that summer (in 1977).

There is another application called BLASTED which was/is a market effect of Tannen's. An English penny is placed on an ashtray and covered with a champagne glass. A half dollar is introduced and tapped on the base of the inverted glass, whereupon it appears with the English penny, under the glass, visibly pops into existence there! Yes it's stunning. The glass is picked up and the coins displayed. The hands are otherwise empty. Nice trick.

There you go, another reason or three to get to the shops tomorrow and pick up this tool.

Have a good weekend!

Jonathan
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Jan 17, 2004 09:00PM)
Hi Gang,

Thanks Curtis, and I will have some more stuff in the hard bound (hopefully coming out next year). One of my S&M coins is a reverse Sun and Moon coin, i.e. the outside is a silver coin and the inside is a copper coin! I had Tod make it up for me in a Barber Half!

Also, I have used a gambling (third person) patter for my hoping half routine (that starts off clean with two real coins)! OK, later man!

Best David Neighbors
The Coinjurer
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jan 17, 2004 09:36PM)
Hey guys,

I don't do Hopping Half, but I do use an abbreviated version of Mark Jenest's Short Hop routine, which for all intents and purposes is the Hopping Half routine without all the shells. It uses one silver coin, one copper coin, and one C/S coin. Anyway, the structure of the routine is similar.

You can do the Hopping Half routine, without making a fool of the spectator. Here is what I do:

I take the first coin and put it in my pocket and ask them what is left. Instead of telling them they aren't watching or they are wrong, I handle it like this: I pause for a second, and tell them, "You know, I forget what I had left in my hand, lets start over." Then I open and show both coins.

This changes the whole tone of it. *I* made a mistake, *I* could not remember, so I use magic to fix the situation. It put all the fault on me, and a reason to make the coin come back.

When I put the other coin in my pocket, I ask again, what is left in my hand. They tell me which coin. Again, instead of telling them they need to watch closer, etc. I immediatly tell the person, "You are correct! In fact, you can't be wrong, I made both come back again just to be safe."

You can see this is the opposite of telling them, you are wrong, they are both here. It says the same thing, but tells the spectator they are right, not wrong.

Again, I do the next coin, and really put it in my pocket, they can see it go in the pocket and I ask them what is in my other hand.

When they say silver, I open part of my hand and show them copper. I look at them and tell them, don't worry even though the copper came back, you are still right, you see the silver is here as well.

For the last one, I tell them, "I was going to ask you what is left, but I can tell you are starting to really watch my hands like a hawk. So I am going to quit while I am ahead, and bail out of the routine, open show the coins gone."

It is the same basic routine, just reworded so you don't belittle your spectator. It seems to work well for me.
Message: Posted by: CardMaker (Jan 18, 2004 03:54AM)
[quote]
On 2004-01-17 22:00, David Neighbors wrote:
...One of my S&M coins is a reverse Sun and Moon coin, i.e. the outside is a silver coin and the inside is a copper coin!
[/quote]
So I assume it's like a loose Scotch & Soda?
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Jan 18, 2004 08:03PM)
Curtis,

Are you referring to the Kaps' version of the copper/silver transposition in the spectator's hand? That appeared in one set of his notes. I have the original Sun and Moon made for Kaps in England, it is a silver half crown and an English penny, quite beautiful!

Also, Jon is right, the "Blasted!" effect is great. I combined it with a "Coin Through Glass" as a follow-up and they look great. Do "Blasted!", and then lay the coins in the glass (you hold the glass parallel to the floor, mouth to the left), one on top of the other, overlapping. Cover the mouth of the glass with the left hand and stand the glass upright.

The "selected" coin passes through the bottom of the glass and falls to the table. So, you pop the coin into the glass through the bottom, and pour it right back out! The parts are all in print somewhere, mostly Bobo, but not all with a Sun and Moon. I'm sure you guys can figure it out... Now, why bother doing it???

Best,
PSC
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 19, 2004 08:10AM)
This is great!

I've pasted Rob's (jimisolo) routine into my "tips" folder, plus, the routine by Dan W. Now I have no excuse, it goes to work with me today, so I can practice the handling, while sitting at my desk...

This IS going to take a while before I show it to ANYONE! This is too good. The "Coins Thru Glass" idea's great, too, but I have a Johnson Magnetic Halves set for that. I wonder if the two...nawww, I'm gonna practice Hopping Halves, now...thanks to you guys! :bg:

Doug
Message: Posted by: JJDrew (Jan 21, 2004 02:23AM)
[quote]
On 2004-01-15 13:45, Curtis Kam wrote:
The Hopping Half set allows dealers to sell beginners twice as many gaffs as they need to pull off a lackluster effect with looming presentational pitfalls.
[/quote]
I'd like to say a word in defense of dealers (not all of them, but some). I bought a set of hopping halves BECAUSE it has twice as many gaffs as needed for the routine. As has been pointed out, it contains two ESs and a sun and moon coin. The price of these coins individually purchased would have been much greater than what I paid for the set. I was originally interested in the ES and the sun and moon, as I'm working my way through Bobo. I now own a nice set of Johnson hopping halves which allow me to do all the effects of those individual gaffs and is a routine within itself. (I do it as two coins that are in love and therefore inseparable, or I do it silently and let the audience draw their own conclusions).

Do the math yourself. For what you get the price is a bargain. I could have been milked for a lot more money, but the dealer recommended hopping halves as a way to save money, and he was absolutely right.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 21, 2004 02:31AM)
I bought a HH set and it did NOT come with a sun/moon. What's up with that?

Mine came with a shaved down c/s and an English penny sh*** (not expanded).

???
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Jan 21, 2004 10:39AM)
Frank:

P. T. Barnum said that there's one of you born every minute.

How kind of you to volunteer, thereby sparing some other poor soul with the came birthdate/time.

;)
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 21, 2004 11:13AM)
Is this really so? I was told it was a Johnson set? In fact, it came in a Johnson bag with Johnson instructions come to think of it.
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Jan 21, 2004 12:40PM)
Frank, the set you described IS the sun and moon gaff. In the S&M routine, the gaff poses as an ordinary EP for 90% of the time. Therefore, the c/s is cut down, allowing the coin to appear normal (i.e. "unexpanded") 90% of the time.

JJDrew, the savings on buying the gaffs all at once is a good reason to buy the set. No argument there. My point is that the routine appears to have been thrown together because the manufacturer felt it needed something that the purchaser could do right out of the box that used all the gaffs together. That routine, IMHO, is not a good reason to purchase the set. The HH routine is not the best effect one can accomplish with these gimmicks, and this set of gimmicks is not the best way to accomplish the HH effect but there's no denying the economics of buying in bulk.

Paul, that's the Kaps routine I was talking about. As you know, David Roth popularized that strategy through its inclusion in his copper/silver routines published in [i]Coinmagic[/i] and [i]Expert Coin Magic[/i]. Do you know if the S&M routine was the only way Kaps used this? Or was this sequence borrowed from his regular copper/silver routine? I don't think I've ever seen Kaps regular copper/silver in print, if he had one.

This effect, with the Kaps ending, is real magic. Three transpositions, one ultra clean, one stunningly visual, and the last in the spectator's hands. Certainly worth considering having Todd Lassen make you a quarter/gold dollar set, so you can perform a miracle anytime, anywhere.
Message: Posted by: cardman1990 (Jun 11, 2004 11:26PM)
I don't see the routine in Bobos, where is it? Thanks.
Message: Posted by: geemack (Jun 12, 2004 10:33AM)
I've owned and used the tools in the Hopping Half set for years. I refer to them as tools because, like nearly any gaffed coin ever made, the pieces are [b]not[/b] the effect.

When you buy a "trick coin" think of it as a painter would think of a brush or canvas or tube of paint; think of it as a mechanic would think of a wrench or screwdriver. The paintbrush is not a work of art, nor is the wrench a repair job. When you develop an idea for an effect that might entertain an audience, go into your box of tools, whether gaffed coins or sleights or psychological ploys, etc. and pick out the ones that you find appropriate for building your routine.

The Hopping Half set is a nice package of versatile tools. If you don't own one you should consider getting one... Johnson's or better. As for the routine that comes in the package, do you have a paper shredder? ;)

Greg
Message: Posted by: wsduncan (Jun 12, 2004 04:12PM)
The routine is called "The Sun And Moon" and appears on page 440 Bobo's The New Modern Coin Magic. The book has an index for Pete's sake! Look for Goshman.

Best,
bill
Message: Posted by: Alan Munro (Jun 12, 2004 10:18PM)
The Hopping Half set has a few more gaffs than just a Sun/Moon set. I use a Sun/Moon set in my strolling work on a regular basis. It's sort of like a loose Scotch and Soda set. The routine that I use it for was origianlly designed for a non-locking penny and dime set.
Message: Posted by: Rob Elliott (Jun 13, 2004 04:34PM)
Cut the guy some slack, will ya Bill?

Cardman, you most likely have the original Modern Coin Magic. If so, you won't find it in there. It wasn't included until the revised edition (New Modern Coin Magic).
Message: Posted by: wsduncan (Jun 13, 2004 05:37PM)
Rob,
You have a point. Is the Sun and Moon routine in the Dover edition? Perhaps that's why people are having troubel finding it? They don't have the full edition of TNMCM?
Message: Posted by: cardman1990 (Jun 14, 2004 03:49PM)
Yea, I have the old one, thanks for the help, ill pick up the "new" one asap
Message: Posted by: fccfp (Jun 17, 2004 06:05PM)
Some great plot lines for the HH. The problem I have with HH (scotch & Soda also) is the reset time. Have any of you had the wrong S**** nest and lock? I ruined one set trying to get them apart. I went to a 3 fly w/ 1 S**** because of that. I also think it can be a stronger routine because the "flying" coin lands in spectator's hand.

How do you get around the reset time on HH & S&S when doing walk around?
Message: Posted by: leefoley3 (Jun 21, 2004 07:08PM)
Hey Guys, I have a set called "2 Copper 1 Silver" made by Sterling. I know, I know. I was just wondering if this set is similar to the ones being discussed in this thread?
Message: Posted by: Delly (Jun 22, 2004 04:26AM)
Im using a S&S in euros and magnetic, reset it take me about 1/2 second :), pretty good and fast because it's magnetic, I can reset it using only one hand.
Message: Posted by: Mediocre the Great (Jun 25, 2004 01:39AM)
Where can you buy magnetic Scotch and Sodas?
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jun 25, 2004 04:51PM)
[url=http://www.themagicwarehouse.com/johnson2.html]The magic warehouse[/url]

It's called magnetic Silver & Copper. I have two sets... They're a regular part of my act.

Not an S&S set however, technically. It's a shimmed unexpanded hal-dollar shell, a magnetic c/s insert, a milled down shimmed English penny, and a milled down unshimmed English penny.

You can do any S&S effect, and about a bazillion other effects using the magnetic gaff.

Best,

Mike
Message: Posted by: fanwun (Jul 1, 2004 11:33AM)
I've been working on Jay Sankey's Kung Fu Coin Trick. It is a version of Hopping Halves, but it only uses the c/s coin. It ends nice and reset only takes a second, or however long it takes to get your coin back from the spectator.
Message: Posted by: Chris "linkster" Watson (Jul 2, 2004 06:01AM)
Hi Guys,

I just thought I'd share my routine with you for an impromptu hopping halves effect. I'm not a professional and can't claim that the routine has been tried and tested on hundreds of people. All I know is the reactions I have recieved from the few people I have showed it to have been strong. I'm not going to ask you for any money (so don't worry ;) ) just some honest opinions. To view the routine please go to http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=74856&forum=37&0

The thread is called "second hand time machine - impromptu hopping halves" and is in secret sessions.

I have never read any other similar effects and came up with this independantly but would appreciate any history etc behind similar handlings.

Hope you enjoy it.

Regards
Chris
Message: Posted by: Delly (Jul 2, 2004 03:45PM)
Ive found this magnetic S&S in a french shop in Paris, called "Le Magasin de Magie", a bit expensive, but really usefull, "no need to shock the coin with an elephant to get the gaff out" (excuse my english :P )
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jul 6, 2004 06:06AM)
"Shock the coin with an elephant"... I like that analogy! The magnetic sets are great for easy resets. I actually assemble and disassemble the gaff up to 4 or 5 times in a routine that I do. In plain sight of the spectators, and it goes completely unnoticed every time.

Chris: Nice routine. I like the tabling finish a lot. I'll have to give that a go one of these nights and see how it works for me.

Best,

Mike
Message: Posted by: Chris "linkster" Watson (Jul 6, 2004 07:56AM)
Hi Mike, Glad you liked the routine, it does get some good reactions....almost as good as Totem ;)

Can't take credit for the tabling effect that was Chris Korn/ Albert Goshman all be it in a slightly different context.
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jul 7, 2004 01:42PM)
It's a nice one. I did it today at lunch for a few people, substituting the back pinches for other methods... you people with your fully functional and non-damaged right pinkys... you really tick me off :)

Nice job man, and that should mean something because I'm not, as you can see from some of my previous posts in this thread, a Hopping Half fan. This routine plays very nicely however.

Best,

Mike