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Topic: What do we think about?
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 13, 2014 08:21PM)
... Selling magic, good magic, on Amazon? I mean I suppose it's inevitable but if it's there it's something I wouldn't buy. Just my philosophy.

http://www.amazon.com/Knockem-Peter-Nardi-Alakazam-Magic/dp/B0082JHVVW
Message: Posted by: DWRackley (Jul 13, 2014 08:39PM)
Personally I’d rather we still lived in the days when you had to travel to a brick & mortar shop, where the guy behind the counter would size you up before he would sell you anything beyond “slum magic”. But that’s not where we are, and it’s up to us to deal with it.

To answer the question I think you’re asking, no I wouldn’t use anything that was too readily available to the masses. I make it a point to “change up” anything I get anyway, but performing something that’s gone “mainstream” is just asking for trouble.
Message: Posted by: Amirá (Jul 13, 2014 08:46PM)
Offering magic/mentalism secrets on public spaces has obviously different ethical points of view, but whats the difference of this and read magic books on a local lybrary? Or a open magic shop?
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

Some close persons, relatives and friends knows that I publish material for other performers, but they don't buy it.

We are in a digital era where information moves quickly and open. I still believe that our secrets are safe.


Best
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 13, 2014 08:47PM)
The problem is that many mainstream dealers (who sell effects they get from wholesalers) also sell their wares on Amazon. Potentially, therefore, every effect and book could be available there. Even used copies of privately published materials show up from time to time.
Message: Posted by: Scott Soloff (Jul 13, 2014 11:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2014, DWRackley wrote:
Personally I’d rather we still lived in the days when you had to travel to a brick & mortar shop, where the guy behind the counter would size you up before he would sell you anything beyond “slum magic”. But that’s not where we are, and it’s up to us to deal with it.
[/quote]

When I was a boy I went to Jack Chanin's magic shop every week (about 12 years old). Took the train into city by myself (wouldn't dream of letting my kids do that when they were growing up). It was more like a studio than a store. Leather chairs and sofa and oriental rugs. Paraphernalia and posters and books everywhere. You didn't go in and tell Jack what you were looking for. First, he would entertain you with some beautiful sleight of hand. Next he would go over and pull something down and demonstrate it for you. That's what you bought. The following week I had to show him the progress I made before he sold me anything else.

Boy, do I miss those days. Unfortunately, there's no going back.

Best wishes,


Scott
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 14, 2014 12:17AM)
Elaborating on my previous post, the effect mentioned in the OP is sold on Amazon by Wizards Headquarters, an online magic dealer who sells and ships the item as a third party. That dealer alone has 160 pages of items on Amazon.

See: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aag/main?ie=UTF8&asin=&isAmazonFulfilled=&isCBA=&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&orderID=&seller=A3K3JCV59JIT58
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jul 14, 2014 12:33AM)
In what way is Amazon not the equivalent of a back of magazine advert in the 1960's.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 14, 2014 01:12AM)
If you were someone interested in learning magic tricks you'd google, "magic tricks." Look at what shows up on the first page... Penguin, ellusionist, theory11 etc.

In 99 percent of the cases, if people have a strong enough desire to learn a secret, they can find it online somewhere.

You can't worry about it or you'll drive yourself crazy. Google, "cheap magic tricks." Follow the links to your hearts content.


I think Amira got it right...
[quote]
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

[/quote]
Message: Posted by: The Forgotten One (Jul 14, 2014 01:26AM)
This discussion sound very familiar. It was discussion what happened when internet and Wikipedia become more popular. Before internet, people memorized a lot more every kind of small details and information and if you wanted to check some information, you needed book for that. It could be your own book or book from library. But it took little bit more time than now days.
Now in internet times, we can just reach to our smart phones and Google pretty much what ever we might want to know. And some people belittle information what come from internet, even if that information come originally from book what they respect a lot. How information or knowledge become more bad because of the source? (if we assume both sources are as trust worth!) Or because it is more widely available? someone could say that everybody can write facts on internet, but same goes with books now days... There is a lot false information available in books too and you always have to be thinking critically if you trust the source or not.

Now days information is spread widely and are right away available. Same goes with magic. I understand that effect suck if your audience understand how it is done, but that is the world where we live now. I dare to say that pretty much all magic is mainstream now days, there just isn't a lot of secrets/effects/sleights what are hard to get in your hands. This is the true at least what come to books and dvd's.
And honestly, I truly believe that if someone is interested, he should be able to study/learn/buy what ever he wants. Of course now days there is a lot of tricks revealed also, but luckily, not everybody are interested about magic or how it work.

And in the other hands. I'm very tired to see how magicians do same tricks years after years and copy each others. This new era of widely available information also challenge us to develop our own effects what don't be in books or revealed in Youtube. IMHO we should be doing it anyway! Developing our own magic.
I have studied a lot of coin sleights. And I have seen to many matrix and 2 or 3 fly's... Why not study the sleights and then start thinking what else we can do with those sleights than those couple ready made tricks or variations of them? Our own imagination is our only limitation. We should be using our own imagination instead of copying what others are doing.
From my point of view, I don't really mind that magic is available to anyone who want to learn. (of course I do mind people who break magicians code for example...) I consider books just as basic structure. it is something where you start to build your own effects and magic. It isn't the whole magic, it is only the start.

Also country where I'm living, I don't known that here would be even one single brick and mortar magic shop anywhere! There is couple online shops and at least couple brick and mortar banter device/gadgets shops what also sell couple cheap effects for kids... And truly, that is pretty lame! For me internet shops and internet shopping is way of the living, and without internet I would be not making magic at all. And I would not be seeing magic too much either.
So internet is good opportunity to people like me. Internet make bad things happens, but also a lot of good things. So in my scale, Amazon and other shops are Ok.
And anyway! Who go to the milk shop and let shopkeeper to tell that "today you don't buy milk, but instead of sugar!" We would say F word to that man and walk straight to the other shop who sell us what we want. So why we should be tolerating that in world of magic and let shopkeeper decide what we should buy or what is available for us?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 14, 2014 01:29AM)
Pretty much every online shop, even ones owned by bricks and mortar magic shops happily display photos of sw**is and so on...
Message: Posted by: ELDEMONIO (Jul 14, 2014 01:37AM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2014, Amirá wrote:
Offering magic/mentalism secrets on public spaces has obviously different ethical points of view, but whats the difference of this and read magic books on a local lybrary? Or a open magic shop?
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

Some close persons, relatives and friends knows that I publish material for other performers, but they don't buy it.

We are in a digital era where information moves quickly and open. I still believe that our secrets are safe.


Best [/quote]

Amira put it best I think. We live in the digital age of information and everything is readily available. The good thing is that there's tons of other non magic information online to keep laymen busy. I think the curious layman will at most buy a few tricks perhaps some books and shortly after stop pursuing magic as it takes a lot of effort. The curious layman will then become our biggest fans as he is in the "know" because he learned a few tricks. If anything we have gained a new appreciator of magic in my opinion.

There's also sooooooo much magic available that there will always be those hidden gems throughout the literature that aren't online. We can be assured that we will always be able to mystify audiences for ages to come. Doesn't worry me one bit. The real secrets are not available online, the real secrets are in how you perform and make people feel.
Message: Posted by: Waters (Jul 14, 2014 05:47AM)
In this day and time, it is true that (lay)people's apathy is the only thing protecting secrets.
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jul 14, 2014 07:28AM)
Some sell their wares on Lybrary.com, which in the realm of mentalism is no different from selling it on Amazon, nor is selling it from your own website. That is not a judgment, just an observation. I've seen a few websites have a "special code" you have to enter before you can see what they're selling, a famous magician's name, for example, to get it, but that's hardly any real protection from the hoi polloi.
Message: Posted by: Anthony Jacquin (Jul 14, 2014 07:57AM)
I find that many lay people have no idea you can buy magic from a magic shop. It has never crossed their mind. They never thought of it since their first kids magic set.
Message: Posted by: george1953 (Jul 14, 2014 08:55AM)
As an example, Davenports magic shop is in a very busy railway station, with literally thousands of people passing by every day. It's obviously a magic shop yet how many of those thousands actually stop and go in ?
Message: Posted by: George Hunter (Jul 14, 2014 09:04AM)
Wizard is the seller, and they now do much of their marketing through Amazon. More and more sellers of an incredible range of products are doing this. Amazon did not becoming a giant by selling books alone.

George
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 14, 2014 11:05AM)
I think the increase of online opportunities is a good thing for everyone. It has the effect of evolving the art faster. More people buy, more people think, more people invent.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 14, 2014 12:48PM)
Not sure I like what the art seems to be evolving into.
Message: Posted by: Jamie D (Jul 14, 2014 01:50PM)
More people buy the more people expose IMO. I personally don't like it which is why I perform mostly using techniques not sold as single effects, rather taken from what I've learned from years back.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 14, 2014 01:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, george1953 wrote:
As an example, Davenports magic shop is in a very busy railway station, with literally thousands of people passing by every day. It's obviously a magic shop yet how many of those thousands actually stop and go in ? [/quote]

Davenports is tucked away in a barely used underpass. I actually can't recall seeing anyone pass it!
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 14, 2014 02:24PM)
I think all you have to do is stay one step ahead. Is there a way to execute something where they say, "He couldn't have used that!"?. Let them see why you DON'T use it, then use it.

A magician friend, whom I consider to be amongst the best in the world, recently developed a routine with a joke shop ball and tube. An entertaining, baffling routine for laymen... the same laymen who have probably seen the ball and tube in the magic kit they got for Christmas at one time.
Message: Posted by: kasper (Jul 14, 2014 04:21PM)
I always wondered if a magic shop looked more like an occult bookshop, a shamans den, or a place of wizardry if it would attract more customers. Instead magic shops always look cartoonish toy stores which makes it look as though magic is not to be taken seriously. Ive been out on dates and walked past these stores. That's how the women described these "magic shops" to me.
Message: Posted by: harris (Jul 14, 2014 04:21PM)
Yes and Fox used to do a routine with 7 imp bottled.

What they can't buy is us.

There's gold in the old books, manuscripts and magazine.

Sometime it is sold as new.
I was talking with someone on this forum recalling back when
The Red Green , Blue etc. -books came out in small pamphlets.
Goldstein's that is.
Of course lots came out before that.

Learn principles, sleights and use them in similar and new ways.
This applies to predictions as much as routines that start out with
6 coins cp in your right hand and a visible coin in your left.


Harris
Stepping off his soap box.
and back to his tall 5'5"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 14, 2014 04:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, kasper wrote:
I always wondered if a magic shop looked more like an occult bookshop, a shamans den, or a place of wizardry if it would attract more customers. Instead magic shops always look cartoonish toy stores which makes it look as though magic is not to be taken seriously. Ive been out on dates and walked past these stores. That's how the women described these "magic shops" to me. [/quote]

And that, I think, is a GOOD thing. What the world needs is fewer magicians and mentalists, and not more being enticed into it every day.
Message: Posted by: JanForster (Jul 14, 2014 04:55PM)
I had dream again... All magicians and mentalists were dead, just me I was still alive...
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 14, 2014 05:20PM)
Google a space-shuttle view photo of the earth. Ask yourself, "How many people down there have ever seen a live mentalist?"

If you polled the 7-billion people, where do you think, "finding a mentalist's secrets" falls on their list of problems to be solved in their lives?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 14, 2014 05:31PM)
No.3?
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 14, 2014 05:38PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, sandsjr wrote:
Google a space-shuttle view photo of the earth. Ask yourself, "How many people down there have ever seen a live mentalist?"

If you polled the 7-billion people, where do you think, "finding a mentalist's secrets" falls on their list of problems to be solved in their lives? [/quote]

Too many.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 14, 2014 05:39PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, IAIN wrote:
No.3? [/quote]

[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:

Too many. [/quote]



We're polling the people on the green earth, not the green forum.
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 14, 2014 11:15PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2014, Syndrome wrote:
I think the increase of online opportunities is a good thing for everyone. It has the effect of evolving the art faster. More people buy, more people think, more people invent. [/quote]

Only those with the eyes to see, will look to this craft closely enough anyway. Being grumpy about the change is a feeble resistance of the inevitable. We are evolving. I can go along with the change or die kicking and screaming to fight it. It's happening whether I/we like it or not. I agree this craft has shifted into some undesirable directions, however, simultaneously, it has been propelled into a much greater and graceful display of what it purports to be...art. This has come at great cost. I owe a massive amount of debt to the new breed of mystery performers. The fact that we (or at least many of us) have truly begun to embrace the theater and mystique we purport to exude (as magicians OR mentalists) is a testament to why I continue to love what I am and what I do.
Message: Posted by: DocBenWiz (Jul 15, 2014 01:05AM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2014, Amirá wrote:
Offering magic/mentalism secrets on public spaces has obviously different ethical points of view, but whats the difference of this and read magic books on a local lybrary? Or a open magic shop?
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

Some close persons, relatives and friends knows that I publish material for other performers, but they don't buy it.

We are in a digital era where information moves quickly and open. I still believe that our secrets are safe.


Best [/quote]
The first magic books I eved read, and could afford, were found in my local, very small town library, when I was just 12. Later, when I came to appreciate the five od six books I devoured there, I realized fhat some professional magician, or the executor of his estate, must have donated them in his name. For example, just one was by Bruce Elliot, "Classic Secrets oc Magic" which caused me many "mispent"
hours of my youth in front of the large mirror in my Nana's room trying to master the cups and balls!
I was blessed by that public library treasure I found!
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 15, 2014 01:08AM)
Mentalism is being cheapened, trivialised and vulgarised like never before. Our secrets are hawked around in public, years of hard work is stolen and dumped on torrent files and pros have their a*us pixilated on TV in an attempt to pass the first round of a tawdry, amateur talent contest.

If this is evolution, take me back to the primitive days of Berglas and Chan Canasta. They had more theatre and mystique in their little fingers than most of the new breed of mentalists.i
Message: Posted by: The Forgotten One (Jul 15, 2014 07:04AM)
There surely is a lot of bad magicians and bad mentalists but same goes with everything. In sports, there are couple, who take it seriously, couple who have gift for it, couple who suck at it and couple who are just looking something to do. Magic isn't any different. Even if that information would be harder to get, still people who suck at it or use it wrongly (claim to be real physics for example) would be getting their hands on it.
I don't believe that getting the "old days" back would be solving anything at all.
And if there is bad magicians around, it don't take anything away from me or make me to be bad magician. So what is the big deal?

Of course it affect how people see magic. But during old days, there was less magicians, so there were surely less also bad magicians around. But there also was less opportunities to see great magicians. When I was kid, country where I'm living, there was basically 1 famous magician around only. I loved to see magic, but there wasn't internet around, there wasn't magic circles in near town and I saw only 2-3 live shows as a kid. And I couldn't choose, if I like to see coin magician, or card tricks or kid magician... It all was summoning doves and linking rings!

Now days, There are plenty of good magic around! Even if there isn't magician in my town, I can just watch amateur Youtubers and be amazed how many good guys you can find over there!
Of course there are also many negative side effects to see, but I don't like to stare on negative things and start thinking negatively myself. ( And even when people claim how things were better during old days, in fact many things instead are a lot better now days.)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 08:41AM)
What, specifically, is done "a lot better nowadays?" And what is your basis for comparison?
Message: Posted by: The Forgotten One (Jul 15, 2014 09:30AM)
Do I really have to explain this to anyone?

Lets start with this.
Healthcare is more advanced than for example 30-50 years back. How we understand bacteria's are better, how we treat diseases are better than "back in the old days." Our medicine are also developed further. Our surgery is now days more safe than for example 30 years back. Anesthesia drugs are more safe and so on... Isn't this all a lot better than what it was back in your childhood or in times when our grandparents were young?

Lets talk next about education.
Our kids get better education than what we got. They actually are smarter than us. Is this bad thing? Studies proof that teenagers today are smarter than what teenagers were in my childhood.

How about environmental things? We know better how our own ego system work and why there is global warning (sadly, many people still deny it.) We actually could be doing something for it (at least for the part what is happening because of the humans.) How we understand earthquakes and tsunami's develop also. Knowledge is power, and now days there is a lot more and easily available knowledge everywhere.

How about technology? We don't use horses anymore. farmers can actually drive tractor. We can keep our food cold around the year (believe me, country where I'm living some people still talk times before fridge, or even electric lights!)
Right now there is discussion going on about new cooling technology what is better for our environment... Isn't that good thing? Everything develop and we have chance to make things better. There is better technology also for cars and cars develop years after years. They are more safe and they pollute less than for example 10 years back. Is this better or not?

Do I need to continue? Do I need to give anyone more proofs? If I do, I feel sad for them and I do not want to waste my time for them because I believe what ever I say to them, they don't chance their perspective anyway. It would be total waste of time. But luckily, world is big and we all fit here.
A lot of things are a lot better now days than what they were past in our near history as I said. But basically time golden our memories and people like to whine how everything is more bad now days than what it was when they were a kid. (basic psychology..)

Of course some things chance worse, others things chance better, but hey, that is the life. If you like to whine, you die anyway, why bother to do anything at all? I'm not overly optimistic either, but many things are a lot better now days than what they were during "old days"...
How it affect magic? Like I told... There are a lot more magic around us, It is more easily available and we do have discussion forums like this to share our knowledge even over boarders!
There is a lot of things what I think is better now days than how they were for example 20 years back. Of course there is also negative things happening like magic torrents, internet pages what are revealing secrets.. But in my eyes, positive things wins negative things easily. I just don't want to go back at any cost. Instead I want to see what future might give us. :)

Everything is developing, and I think magic should also develop and be up to date. So I don't see problems if somethings are left in history (where they probably belong anyway.)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 09:44AM)
I'll ask again, a bit more specifically- IN MENTALISM, what, specifically, is done "a lot better nowadays?" And what is your basis for comparison?
Message: Posted by: The Forgotten One (Jul 15, 2014 12:56PM)
I didn't talk specific about mentalism, but instead in general about magic and everything else.
People all the time tell "how things were better when I was kid. cars went faster, ice cream tasted better and cyanide wasn't poisonous for kids," But usually that just isn't true at all.

But what come specific about mentalism... I have to tell you, I have seen only 1 mental effect in live in my whole life. And it was basically mathematics trick. It was magician, who did one mind reading effect, and it was badly done. I was maybe 10 year old and I suffered through it.
For me, mentalism (as you know it) didn't exist before time of the internet. And still, country where I'm living people basically even now days know only 1 mentalist who came here from Usa.

Without internet, without internet shops, without dvd's and youtube, mentalism basically don't exist here at all. It is the modern age what give me opportunity to study mentalism at all. And I believe I'm not alone here. Not everyone is living in big country or in big cities. This also goes for everybody as an audience. Internet give them more opportunities to see mentalism and magic. It don't take anything away from them.
It is our modern technology what give us opportunity to talk about mentalism here over boards. We can ask advises, give tips and learn. We can improve ourselves as artists more easily. It isn't only how mentalism is devepoling, It is also what opportunities our modern times give us.

If we count metal bending, fortune telling and other effects like that as mentalism, then we do have long and colorful history about that in here... Basically all mentalist were gypsy's in that case and they claimed that they had real powers. And people really believed in it. Now days we know they don't have any kind of powers... It is better this way. Or do you think otherwise?
Of course many people still believe in it, what is sad. But even more people would be believing in it if information wouldn't travel so fast.
I like the way how mentalism have developed (from real deal to entertainment). But sadly, even today, it would be here easier to find gypsy who would teach mentalism, than find entertainment mentalist.
In fact, I have seen only that 1 mentalism effect performed by magician. But I have seen many mind readers, who claimed that their powers were real. But now days there isn't those guys too much around anymore (There still are too many!) For me "turning back" would be turning to the time of no mentalism at all... Or atleast it all would be very real (=performed by scammers.)

During 90, we saw people in tv, who claimed that they really can move objects and bend metal... And we did believe in it here. It was "tv mentalism..." well kind of. It wasn't marketed as mentalism, it was marketed as real deal.
It wasn't until month or something like that ago when I saw in Youtube old Tv series about those scammers when I googled their names... And I learnt that they have got busted long time ago (well I knew they aren't real anyway, but I was interested about history and folks who really claimed they are real deal.) They didn't show those tv series in our tv's where they got busted! So I just wonder how many saw them back then and still today don't connect the dots because basically mentalism didn't exist here until that 1 women come from Usa 1-2 years ago.

And as I told before, country where I'm living, we don't still have even single brick and mortar magic shop here. So basically even magic didn't exist in my life before the internet age. Well it was existing, but it was all about doves, tuxedo's, silks and linking rings. Not so much about close up magic, or card magic or anything... It was only one kind of stage magic and that it was. When they aired magic program in tv, it was huge thing for me and really got my attention.

Now days I see a lot more mentalism and magic and many more people have opportunity to study them. In my eyes it is a gift, not a curse. Curse was when information (and books) didn't travel over boarders.

What have done a lot better now days? I cannot answer for that because of two reasons: firstly, I didn't say anywhere that something is done a lot more better in mentalism than back in the old days. And secondly because for me, mentalism (as you know it) didn't exist until 10 years back. But as I said. World develop around us and mentalism and magic should be also developing for modern day needs. It is living only if someone is wanting to watch it. If we get stuck and don't develop new effects, people will lose their interest and get bored (eventually.)

Also, modern inventions give more opportunities for magic and mentalism... gadget's fit in smaller space, they can be better programmed and they are cheaper to manufacture.
Smoke and flame effects develop also more safe to use. Future isn't something what we should be fearing, we should be looking for it and taking it here with open arms because it give us more opportunities, more possibilities.

When I read how people is talking when there is too many magician, It sound to me like they are only fearing that they are loosing their own jobs. For me more magicians mean more entertainers, more different kind of magic, more fun. Something for everyone. No problems here, until you are thinking only yourself, not the others.
When people are talking how too many people know effects and how they are done, it sound little bit like "I have done this same trick over 10 years and now, I have to learn another one to amuse audience?" But for me it is more like a challenge... How I can do it without people knowing the secret... And if too many people are knowing it, it is time to move on. Time to improve our magic (or mentalism!) (Of course there still is place for those tricks, but not with that audience!)

People in this topic talk, how "magic and mentalism were better back then" And I just don't be sure what were better... They talk how modern days are like a curse, because "there is a lot of magic around" or "they know how this trick is done." But at the same time they forget that modern times also make our lives easier as magicians and mentalist. It also give us more opportunities.
How it was better when magic shopkeeper told what effect you should buy? How it was better when you needed to travel hours to nearest shop? How it was better, when your only magic was 2 books in library? I really don't see it at all. Nothing more, nothing less. World around chance, we should accept it and adapt.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 01:04PM)
Everything in life boils down to perspective. No perspective is right. No perspective is wrong.
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 01:10PM)
If I may...I would suggest that the most fundamental asset to our craft has become a lot better...our storytelling abilities have become exceptional since Wonder Words arrived.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 01:16PM)
I accept that Kento... uhhhh.... Syndrome.











I'm jokin man I'm jokin... :-)
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 15, 2014 01:26PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, sandsjr wrote:
Everything in life boils down to perspective. No perspective is right. No perspective is wrong. [/quote]

Doesn't it though depend on your perspective?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 01:37PM)
The Forgotten One-

Of course we're talking about mentalism. This is, after all, a forum about mentalism
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 01:49PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, John C wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, sandsjr wrote:
Everything in life boils down to perspective. No perspective is right. No perspective is wrong. [/quote]

Doesn't it though depend on your perspective? [/quote]


Hmm, your post makes me wonder, "What if there were no hypothetical questions?"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 01:50PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, Syndrome wrote:
If I may...I would suggest that the most fundamental asset to our craft has become a lot better...our storytelling abilities have become exceptional since Wonder Words arrived. [/quote]

Some people's story telling abilities have probably gotten better. Others have gotten worse. But, sorry to say, story-telling, though fundamental in magic and bizarre magic is not, and has never been, the "the most fundamental asset" of mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 01:53PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Some people's story telling abilities have probably gotten better. Others have gotten worse. But, sorry to say, story-telling, though fundamental in magic and bizarre magic is not, and has never been, the "the most fundamental asset" of mentalism. [/quote]

How so?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 01:57PM)
Simple. Mentalists generally do NOT do storytelling.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 01:57PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, Syndrome wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Some people's story telling abilities have probably gotten better. Others have gotten worse. But, sorry to say, story-telling, though fundamental in magic and bizarre magic is not, and has never been, the "the most fundamental asset" of mentalism. [/quote]

How so? [/quote]

Here's an idea, pick up his book, The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy, Volume 2 and read the section on "Fundamentals."
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 02:03PM)
Thank you for the suggestion. I certainly will. Perhaps my understanding of storytelling is flawed.

Wikipedia: Storytelling is the conveying of events in words, and images, often by improvisation or embellishment. Stories or narratives have been shared in every culture as a means of entertainment, education, cultural preservation, and instilling moral values. Crucial elements of stories and storytelling include plot, characters, and narrative point of view.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 02:08PM)
It's not that your understanding of storytelling is flawed, it's your assertion that storytelling is the most fundamental asset to mentalism that is.
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 02:11PM)
Oh, okay. Can you say what the most fundamental asset to mentalism is then? I'm here to learn.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 02:11PM)
Again- your definition of storytelling is correct. But the fact remains that very few mentalists do it, so it is hardly fundamental to the art.

We write scripts. But scripts are hardly ever "stories," in the sense that most people understand the word.

But, yes, we do use words. And the words we use and the way we use them is very important and could be considered fundamental.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 02:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, Syndrome wrote:
... I'm here to learn. [/quote]

If you really mean this then I highly recommend you pick up the book... The Artful Mentalism of Bob Cassidy, Volume 2
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 02:25PM)
Syndrome, pick up one other thing while you're over there. "Mental Miracles" by Bob Cassidy. These are some of THE BEST effects you'll find in mentalism!
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 02:55PM)
Sandsjr:

I think I bought that DVD 10+ years ago. Have to check in the basement abyss...yep, got it. I haven't watched it since I bought it. Looking at it, I imagine I've got the 2002 release. Will watch it again tonight.

A little background: I've just recently returned to performing. I took about 10 years off. Performed very little in the last 10 years, but never lost interest. 2 months ago I started to dust off the synapses and build up a show. I've done a few days of performing at the mall and have thoroughly enjoyed it. Started reading up here at the Café recently and have pulled out a few books again to get the juices flowing. I'm grateful for the advice and direction from all the members and look forward to contributing to the craft.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 03:00PM)
Do it up Syndrome. Good luck!
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Jul 15, 2014 03:05PM)
Get Cassidy's Billet Killers download while you're at it. I can't stop watching his first b***** s*****. It is a work of art.
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 03:06PM)
Thanks!
Message: Posted by: tpratt38 (Jul 15, 2014 04:38PM)
I don't honestly believe anybody but teenagers, and people with inferiority complexes really want to know how mentalism or magic is really accomplished. It is simply the first words that come to their mind, "Wow how did you do that." and other such comments. I have asked if they really wanted to know, they usually say, that they don't. The bad ones, felt like I was trying to trick them, these one have the inferiority complexes.

99% of time people just enjoy the performance, I try to teach them a simple bar bet type thing, and they are more than happy when I show that I am not trying to trick or fool them.

Practice your performance and perform as often as you can. I am also guilty of the not performing enough. I am only 125 or so performances into performing a 1000 times or more, that is when you can consider yourself an almost seasoned performer. Well that is what I heard at one of the lectures at Mind-Vention last year.

Just my 35 cents.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 04:59PM)
It's not a thousand performances we were talking about. The discussion was about Malcolm Gladwell's conclusion that it takes TEN thousand HOURS of practice to truly master something. See: http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/10000-hours-of-practice/
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 15, 2014 05:05PM)
Http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20121114-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-myth
Message: Posted by: Syndrome (Jul 15, 2014 05:06PM)
Wow! Amazing read. Thank you for that!
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 05:23PM)
As an aside: That 10,000 hr estimate, In my view, is a "very" conservative estimate. You are not going to "master" the piano in 5 years practicing 5-1/2 hours per day. You'll be good if you practice the "right way" but you won't have it mastered. Plus his idea that innate talent has nothing to do with a person's ability to assimilate information is incorrect in my experience as well. Some brains are wired to do certain things than others.

Something to consider is a lot of us aren't consciously aware of exactly "what" we are mastering over that 10,000-hour period. "Perfect" practice makes perfect... or at least critical/focused practice. I try to remind myself of this often.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 05:24PM)
All true. As to whether or not it is a "myth," ask the Beatles.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 05:26PM)
Exactly, you ain't learning songwriting like Lennon and McCartney no matter how many classes you take!

I was writing my comment while Iain was posting his link... I think this supports what I was saying!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 15, 2014 05:31PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
All true. As to whether or not it is a "myth," ask the Beatles. [/quote]

they did it Eight Days a Week...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 05:38PM)
Seriously, though,there's no doubt that you haven't mastered something until you can do it in your sleep. Only when the necessary work and script become hardwired into your brain and hands, will you be able to effectively improvise and create on the fly.
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 05:41PM)
Had to post this... my nephew (Ringo's left) the other night up at Santa Barbara before the show...
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 05:57PM)
And to prove it's not the hours, here is my 2nd painting EVER in my life!

I drew like a 5yr old that can't draw until I read a line in a book that just clicked! I painted this a month after that. Never drew or painted before!....

This is a 30x40 of "The Gleaners" by Millet.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 15, 2014 06:05PM)
I first started to play the guitar when I was 13, didn't stop playing it every day til I was in my mid-twenties...then sold off everything in my early 30s...past year or two I've drifted back, and this week I treated myself to a nice resonator...i've found my style of playing completely different, my techniques have changed, as have my strengths and weaknesses... really enjoying it again... sometimes a break from the things you enjoy doing can make a big positive change...

the muscle memory is still there, going through the pentatonics and so on, but the way I now use them is entirely different...no real point to this post other than "hey! I bought a new guitar!" its very pretty...
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 15, 2014 06:06PM)
En Joy!
Message: Posted by: Scott Soloff (Jul 15, 2014 06:09PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, IAIN wrote:
"hey! I bought a new guitar!" its very pretty... [/quote]

Congratulations! Play it in good health...

Best,

Scott
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 15, 2014 06:11PM)
[img]https://33.media.tumblr.com/5d5bedd59e5e6408bf4f512dc43259f1/tumblr_n8s0epfT0C1reyipto1_500.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jul 15, 2014 06:18PM)
A resonator! Love it.
Message: Posted by: Scott Soloff (Jul 15, 2014 06:19PM)
Very cool...
Message: Posted by: edwardsausagefingers (Jul 16, 2014 09:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, sandsjr wrote:
And to prove it's not the hours, here is my 2nd painting EVER in my life!

I drew like a 5yr old that can't draw until I read a line in a book that just clicked! I painted this a month after that. Never drew or painted before!....

This is a 30x40 of "The Gleaners" by Millet. [/quote]

Amazing! Excellent work.
Interested to know the line you read in the book...
Message: Posted by: sandsjr (Jul 16, 2014 10:48AM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2014, edwardsausagefingers wrote:

Amazing! Excellent work.
Interested to know the line you read in the book... [/quote]

Thanks for the nice comments. I PMd you.
Message: Posted by: tpratt38 (Jul 16, 2014 02:37PM)
Thanks for the correction Bob I knew it was worthwhile but didn't know the exact source. Great refresher to read this a few times a year. Great Guitar Iain, I have a Fender Resonator as well, which is my second favorite guitar.

Well back to the practicing part only 9500 hours left to go.
Message: Posted by: insight (Jul 22, 2014 11:30PM)
I think Pablo hit the nail in the head. I think a distribution channel such as Amazon.com is perfectly fine for mentalists. My hypothesis is that our secrets would only be bought by those who are genuinely interested in learning the art form. I'm not sure why someone would spend their hard-earned dollars on Amazon (or any other retailer) on something that meant nothing to them.

Simply, our worry should not be Amazon. It should be on YouTube (and other) exposure that impairs the viability and sustainability of our field by giving away our secrets for free to those who could care less about our art.

Regards,
Mike

[quote]On Jul 13, 2014, Amirá wrote:
Offering magic/mentalism secrets on public spaces has obviously different ethical points of view, but whats the difference of this and read magic books on a local lybrary? Or a open magic shop?
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

Some close persons, relatives and friends knows that I publish material for other performers, but they don't buy it.

We are in a digital era where information moves quickly and open. I still believe that our secrets are safe.


Best [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jul 23, 2014 01:06AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2014, insight wrote:
I think Pablo hit the nail in the head. I think a distribution channel such as Amazon.com is perfectly fine for mentalists. My hypothesis is that our secrets would only be bought by those who are genuinely interested in learning the art form. I'm not sure why someone would spend their hard-earned dollars on Amazon (or any other retailer) on something that meant nothing to them.

Simply, our worry should not be Amazon. It should be on YouTube (and other) exposure that impairs the viability and sustainability of our field by giving away our secrets for free to those who could care less about our art.

Regards,
Mike

[quote]On Jul 13, 2014, Amirá wrote:
Offering magic/mentalism secrets on public spaces has obviously different ethical points of view, but whats the difference of this and read magic books on a local lybrary? Or a open magic shop?
I don't see myself buying a book in modern dance arts because I don't have interest in learning those topics. Normal persons thinks the same.

Some close persons, relatives and friends knows that I publish material for other performers, but they don't buy it.

We are in a digital era where information moves quickly and open. I still believe that our secrets are safe.


Best [/quote] [/quote]

I agree with Mike .. It's this giving secrets away on Youtube that really upsets me ... especially when they do it under the guise of protecting you from scams.

[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
It's not a thousand performances we were talking about. The discussion was about Malcolm Gladwell's conclusion that it takes TEN thousand HOURS of practice to truly master something. See: http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/10000-hours-of-practice/ [/quote]
I have sang/sung the song Soul Man over 11,000 times in public performances since 1989 ..... I don't sing it that much better now than then ... HOWEVER .....There is nothing like repetition to help with muscle memory and control. Genetics only goes so far.
Message: Posted by: Davidzajac (Aug 10, 2014 05:45PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:
Mentalism is being cheapened, trivialised and vulgarised like never before. Our secrets are hawked around in public, years of hard work is stolen and dumped on torrent files and pros have their a*us pixilated on TV in an attempt to pass the first round of a tawdry, amateur talent contest.

If this is evolution, take me back to the primitive days of Berglas and Chan Canasta. They had more theatre and mystique in their little fingers than most of the new breed of mentalists.i [/quote]
Yeah sounds good.