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Topic: Mat Franco Rub-A-Dub cups and balls routine on AGT
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 17, 2014 08:46AM)
First of all, let me state how happy I am that a magician is in the finals of AGT, and I wish him all the best. I am also glad to see 3 magic acts in the final 12, which means that they will be on tour.

Having said that, I can't help but wonder if he had received clearance to perform the Jack Bateman routine (from Phil Wilmarth who apparently still owns it) on television. Also, maybe I am just spoiled by people Like Michael Ammar or Gazzo or am suffering from wanting to be fooled but I don't think his handling of the cups and balls was all that great. There were MANY flashes, and clumsy final load steals that a snail could follow. I would be interested in hearing from other people on this topic. Again - not trying to take anything away from Mat, and I wish him all the best of luck, but I just had a few thoughts (which is rare for me haha) so I thought I would post to see what others have to say.
Message: Posted by: The Hermit (Sep 17, 2014 10:31AM)
My only opinion outside the load issue was the patter and movements were too much for TV I think. Trying to follow the story and watch trick seemed to diminish the reveals. It seemed hurried and confusing. The same with the card trick at the end. I asked my girlfriend what she thought and she said it seem like a lot of stuff happening and then something about a card matching. Reminds me of what Vernon always said about how not to do a trick. I know he was trying for a big attention getter, but sorting cards on live TV is boring. He did the best he could with it, but I don't think it had the impact he hoped. Both were too complicated and the story seemed a forced attempt to personalize with the judges. Since we don't know how they are in real life, the story was just a story and really not personal.
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 17, 2014 04:46PM)
Is there any video of this performance on the net? I just looked and couldn't find any.I would like to see it very much.I do it the way Michael Skinner taught me.Just wanted to see the difference.

Thanks...
Don
Message: Posted by: Solimar (Sep 17, 2014 06:22PM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2014, DonDriver wrote:
Is there any video of this performance on the net? I just looked and couldn't find any.I would like to see it very much.I do it the way Michael Skinner taught me.Just wanted to see the difference.

Thanks...
Don [/quote]

Here's what I found Don...

http://www.rickey.org/mat-franco-performs-human-deck-cards-americas-got-talent-2014-finals-video/268577/
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 17, 2014 06:45PM)
Solimar,
That's his "out of this world". I saw that on youtube.I'm looking for Rub-A-Dub-Dub that this thread is talking about.But thanks for your help.

Don
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 17, 2014 09:43PM)
Here you go Don:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nrJeYaGK1M
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 17, 2014 10:17PM)
Thanks Marvello....interesting twist on the patter.

Don
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 17, 2014 10:49PM)
After viewing his routine a few times I think that his routine is closely based on Bill Malone's version. Congrats to Mat for a job well done.

Posted: Sep 17, 2014 11:54 pm The incredible Bill Malone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXutYUkWzU
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 17, 2014 11:28PM)
I do the first part well...I really need to add the golf balls and patter.I have been wanting to do that for years and have Bills DVD on the subject....just too old and lazy.Time to get to work...

Thanks again Marvello.

Don
Message: Posted by: MartiniMagic (Sep 18, 2014 12:44AM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2014, Marvello wrote:
I thought I would post to see what others have to say. [/quote]

Matt Franco won America' Got Talent.

Here's what I have to say:
Magicians have been talking about his magic or the other's magic and if it was simplistic or not done well. Some say or think "I can do that." I think there are some points to be made here. The magicians performed many tricks we know and sometime their performance were not very good. But they had a lot of guts and big "you know whats" to try such things in right in front of 4 judges, a very large live audience and a very large TV audience all at the same time. That is quite a challenge in presentation alone, let alone handling the "nerves." The routine that Smoothdini did with Howie Mandel's ring and Nick Cannon's shoe lace came off amazing. When I first saw it I was like "what?" On the second viewing I had everything worked out and I do not know very much about magic. But what guts to do that so close. He had to pull off at least three moves and if he messed any of them up it would have been a total disaster. With the nerves going, those moves had to be 10 times harder and the patter has to be perfect at the same time. Also, AGT is a competition which is much different then when people go to a show to see an established magician. I know with my tricks, I go to the ones I have down, ones that I can perform almost without thinking, the major magic acts are all regularly rehearsed and they are done over and over. When competing on AGT you are probably getting a limited amount of time to set-up and practice, you may only get 2 or 3 run throughs and while you are trying to remember your next move and patter you have to make sure you hit your spots and look at the correct camera. So it takes a super performer to pull all this off in my opinion.

Here is an even bigger point IMO. The acts he beat out were amazing, the boy and the lady and the acrobats (I think the boy should have won). So how did he beat out these acts? I comes down to the audience voting for him. I cannot imagine and specific demographic voting for him. For instance the good looking male singer, I would think young girls all the way up to moms and even grand moms would vote for him (he came in 6th by the way). But who was voting for the magician? The answer probably is everyone. So magicians can analyze and critique, but it came down to he entertained them the most and that is what magic is in the simplest form, entertainment. IMO Magicians get too caught up in the details, is it Joe's "this" or Bill's "that." It doesn't mater. America loved it and I can't see it being anything but good for magic. Pretty exciting times with this and all the other magic on TV. I love it.
Message: Posted by: tophatter (Sep 18, 2014 02:30AM)
Well said Martini magic I agree !
Message: Posted by: phaddad2 (Sep 18, 2014 06:15AM)
Martini you hit it on the nose. he loves magic and what he is doing and it shows. for that the audience loved him and enjoys his performance. have fun and everyone else will have fun with you.
Message: Posted by: The Hermit (Sep 18, 2014 07:21AM)
Guess we better go back and look at those tapes. If he can win AGT over a singer - that's amazing. Magicians never win these things. Something he did resonated with America. Magicians should be looking at what that is. Well done. Mat.
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 18, 2014 07:45AM)
I think that the glut of singers split the votes amongst those who prefer singer acts - 4 musical acts vs. 2 variety acts. I agree with what Martini said all the way, and have always heard the joke "how many magicians does it take to do a trick" answer - all of them - one to do it and the rest to comment on how they could have done it better. I Am happy that Mat won, however I still can't help but wonder my original question - if he got clearance from Mr. Willmarth to perform that routine - that's all. I think it is interesting to note that Mr. Willmarth unfortunately passed away the same evening that Mat Franco performed that routine on AGT - RIP.
Message: Posted by: Holistic Magic (Sep 18, 2014 07:49AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, The Hermit wrote:
Guess we better go back and look at those tapes. If he can win AGT over a singer - that's amazing. Magicians never win these things. Something he did resonated with America. Magicians should be looking at what that is. Well done. Mat. [/quote]
This is amazing. I watched the entire season and out of all the magicians, I noticed Matt the least until he did the trick with Mel B's phone in the audience's seat. That got my attention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JdlabjN3p8 The "Out of the World with the human deck was cool too. When he was doing that I was thinking that is one of the card tricks I learned and forgotten (unfortunately, there are a lot of those :-( ) For sure he was very likeable and that helps to get votes. Anyway you look at it is Great!
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, Marvello wrote:
have always heard the joke "how many magicians does it take to do a trick" answer - all of them - one to do it and the rest to comment on how they could have done it better.[/quote]
A magician once told me a joke and it totally went over my head (not too hard to do that). The joke was "when does a good magician become a bad magician?" The answer, "when he leaves the room." I thought it was a bad joke and asked him to explain. It was not a bad joke but more of a statement about magicians. His explanation was that when the magician "leaves the room" all the other magicians talk bad about him.
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 18, 2014 02:07PM)
Everybody is going to hate me for this comment.

AGT is rigged to the hilt.Its as phoney as it gets and is scripted. The cell phone effect Matt did was a total set up with the judges and the producer of the show.Matt was picked to win from his first time on AGT.Why nobody can see though this is beyond me....it's so obvious.

Don
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 18, 2014 10:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, DonDriver wrote:
Everybody is going to hate me for this comment.

AGT is rigged to the hilt.Its as phoney as it gets and is scripted. The cell phone effect Matt did was a total set up with the judges and the producer of the show.Matt was picked to win from his first time on AGT.Why nobody can see though this is beyond me....it's so obvious.

Don [/quote]

agreed, but as far as the cell phone trick, I can see how that could be done easily - not going in to it here but it isn't too hard to figure out how. Emily West was certainly a ringer, having had a contract with Capitol Records, and having appeared on Celebrity Apprentice, etc. It's more fun to pretend that we all have a vote in this, and act like sheep, just like we do with politics. ;)
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 18, 2014 10:41PM)
Marvelleo said:"agreed, but as far as the cell phone trick, I can see how that could be done easily - not going in to it here but it isn't too hard to figure out how."

What kind of person would or could plant a cell phone in a seat at Radio City Music Hall.Than take a knife and cut the seat open? Give me a break...all rigged before hand.
Don
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Sep 19, 2014 05:01AM)
C'mon Don,
Of course it was rigged. And Mel B was a stooge. So? If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing?
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 19, 2014 08:20AM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2014, DonDriver wrote:
What kind of person would or could plant a cell phone in a seat at Radio City Music Hall.Than take a knife and cut the seat open? Give me a break...all rigged before hand.[/quote]
this should probably be in secret sessions and not here, but take another look at the performance video - especially the cutting open of the chair part - is it just me or did his whole sleeved arm disappear into that chair?

[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Steve Friedberg wrote:
C'mon Don,
Of course it was rigged. And Mel B was a stooge. So? If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing? [/quote]
yes.

I am lucky enough to remember seeing REAL magicians perform REAL acts in front of TV audiences, with no stoogery or camera tricks.

ahh those were the days.
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 19, 2014 10:09AM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Steve Friedberg wrote:
C'mon Don,
Of course it was rigged. And Mel B was a stooge. So? If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing? [/quote]
Than you must be a Chris Angel fan as well.

Don
Message: Posted by: Steve Friedberg (Sep 19, 2014 07:16PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Marvello wrote:
[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Steve Friedberg wrote:
If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing? [/quote]
yes.

I am lucky enough to remember seeing REAL magicians perform REAL acts in front of TV audiences, with no stoogery or camera tricks.

ahh those were the days. [/quote]

And Vernon fooled Houdini not once, not twice, but three times with a gaff. Did that make him less of a pure magician?

I was in Las Vegas two weeks ago watching Mac King. Mac enlisted the help of an audience member to help him pull off his final effect. Holy cow, he used a stooge. Is Mac King any less of a pure magician?

Seems to me that I'm sensing some sour grapes here....that Mat Franco isn't a "real" magician, 'cause he had the audacity to use a stooge. Guess what: Mat's got the $1MM and headline nights in Vegas. Instead of complaining of how he's not a pure magician, we ought to be celebrating his win, and figuring out how we can leverage it to improve our own careers.
Message: Posted by: TonyB2009 (Sep 21, 2014 04:58PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Steve Friedberg wrote:
C'mon Don,
Of course it was rigged. And Mel B was a stooge. So? If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing? [/quote]
Yes that is a bad thing. If you don't see that, perhaps magic should not be your thing. It used to be about fooling people, not using set-ups and camera tricks.

A blatant use of a stooge reduces this from magic to a playlet.
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 21, 2014 06:29PM)
[quote]On Sep 21, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
[quote]On Sep 19, 2014, Steve Friedberg wrote:
C'mon Don,
Of course it was rigged. And Mel B was a stooge. So? If 50 people (i.e., the production crew and the judges) knew it in advance, and it amazed/fooled millions, is that a bad thing? [/quote]
Yes that is a bad thing. If you don't see that, perhaps magic should not be your thing. It used to be about fooling people, not using set-ups and camera tricks.

A blatant use of a stooge reduces this from magic to a playlet. [/quote]
Ditto
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 22, 2014 08:38AM)
Mr friedberg: a gaff is not a stooge, and an "instant stooge" is different than a stooge or crew of stooges on the payroll
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 22, 2014 01:35PM)
What some people here aren't getting is there is NO CONTEST on AGT.The judges are putting on an act,the call in votes mean nothing.The producers decide who is going to move on and who will win before the first show of the season.The fill in acts have no idea of any of this but they do get their air fair and rooms and meals paid for and get to be on national TV.Not a bad deal for a paid few days.So nobody wins a million dollars or gets a show in Vegas since its all rigged.If everything was on the up and up than nobody would have to sign AGT's non disclosure clause.I'm sure winner's get paid something that makes it well worth their while and that I'm ok with.I dislike the fact that AGT expects me to believe its all on the up and up.Its an insult to my intelligence.For this reason I stopped watching the show years ago.But some people will believe anything you tell them.

Don
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Sep 22, 2014 03:23PM)
Http://whipchick.livejournal.com/12805.html
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (Sep 22, 2014 06:42PM)
Even after reading this some people will think she is mad because she lost and is lying to get even.
Message: Posted by: rhpeltz (Sep 27, 2015 10:02AM)
I don't think he would have much of an act without stooges.
Message: Posted by: Ron Reid (Sep 27, 2015 02:32PM)
[quote]On Sep 22, 2014, DonDriver wrote:
What some people here aren't getting is there is NO CONTEST on AGT.The judges are putting on an act,the call in votes mean nothing.The producers decide who is going to move on and who will win before the first show of the season.The fill in acts have no idea of any of this but they do get their air fair and rooms and meals paid for and get to be on national TV.Not a bad deal for a paid few days.So nobody wins a million dollars or gets a show in Vegas since its all rigged.If everything was on the up and up than nobody would have to sign AGT's non disclosure clause.I'm sure winner's get paid something that makes it well worth their while and that I'm ok with.I dislike the fact that AGT expects me to believe its all on the up and up.Its an insult to my intelligence.For this reason I stopped watching the show years ago.But some people will believe anything you tell them.

Don [/quote]

You are spot on, Don.
Message: Posted by: blackstone99 (Oct 2, 2015 03:19PM)
Mat did a very good job with the cups. An yes I agree the show is about as real as TV wrestling.

Paul
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 2, 2015 03:43PM)
I never watch as Don has hit the nail in the head. The things they do to achieve a TV show are pretty manipulative. They actually flew people out just to film them being told they did not make the cut.

From the first year I have turned them down multiple times a year. Now people still run to be on. So few have benefited from the experience. They are out to make what they consider a good TV show and everything is geared to that end.

The strange thing is knowing this people flock to be considered! Even professionals. It reminds me of the people involved in abusive relationships that will be the ones who "change them."

So many in Branson thought being on TV would spur ticket sales. Hardly. People have way too short an attention span for those who lose.

Heck even some of the "finalists" from American Idol (A term used to describe the top 10. I hate when they change word meanings.) are singing servers at a diner! No kidding. And the longer these shows continue the more meaningless having been on actually is. The sad part is people then thimk the phone will ring off the hook with high priced offers and it invariably does not.

It may be good TV, I have no clue as I have never watched. But it is not a good way to treat people.