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Topic: Best Rock Album Ever
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 18, 2014 02:13PM)
Lobo in another thread posited Red Hot Chili Peppers' Californication as possibly the best rock album ever.

I think others may have other candidates. How about you?

Criteria I propose are: we are looking for an album where a) every track is a winner and b) each track together makes a seamless whole.

For arguments' sake I'll go with Tommy. Honorable Mention: Blonde on Blonde, Eagles Greatest Hits (should we allow greatest hits compilations? I don't know), Concert for Bangladesh.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 18, 2014 03:19PM)
A few of my alternate picks (and no, I don't think Greatest Hits albums should count):

Who's Next (The Who)
Rumors (Fleetwood Mac)
2112 or Moving Pictures (Rush)
The Final Cut or Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Oct 18, 2014 04:20PM)
An oldie that changed my way of thinking way back when was Deep Purple In Rock.
Message: Posted by: Mark Boody Illusionist (Oct 18, 2014 06:12PM)
My personal nominees in NO particular order:

AC/DC Back in Black

Guns N Roses Appetite for Destruction

Van Halen (debut album)

Metallica (black album)

Mark
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Oct 18, 2014 06:27PM)
The Who sell out....The Who.
Killer...Alice Cooper.
Physical Graffiti....Led Zep.
Strangers in the night....UFO.(A live album, so technically a best of, so not allowed)
Live in Japan....Deep purple.(See above)
Live and dangerous...Thin Lizzy (See above)
I could go on for hours.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 18, 2014 06:46PM)
Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. It was the game changer.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 18, 2014 06:46PM)
+1 on Strangers in the Night. That one is a BEAST.

The Black Album makes my top 5...Metallica albums.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 18, 2014 06:48PM)
I'd also add The Beatles' "White Album."
Message: Posted by: michaelmystic2003 (Oct 18, 2014 07:07PM)
Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen. Discussion closed.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 18, 2014 07:15PM)
Hi Michael, long time no see.
Surprised no Stones albums mentioned yet.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 18, 2014 07:34PM)
I like Born to Run as a nominee. I love some Stones song, but they're pretty well spread out over the albums.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 18, 2014 07:46PM)
The Wall. I almost don't want to say it because it already gets so much attention. But it is powerful in conception, and surprisingly subtle in execution.

But I might change my mind tomorrow. Californication is an inspired suggestion, Lobo.
Message: Posted by: imgic (Oct 18, 2014 10:04PM)
Styx "The Grand Illusion"
Queen "Night at the Opera"
The Clash "Combat Rock "
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 18, 2014 10:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, imgic wrote:
Styx "The Grand Illusion"
Queen "Night at the Opera"
The Clash "Combat Rock " [/quote]

Good stuff. For one Styx album, top to bottom, I think I'd go with "Paradise Theater."
Message: Posted by: w_s_anderson (Oct 18, 2014 10:20PM)
Use your Illusion II from G & R gets my vote.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 18, 2014 11:12PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. It was the game changer.[/quote]
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd also add The Beatles' "White Album."[/quote]
Interesting.

Of all of the Beatles' albums (alba?), I'd rank [b]Rubber Soul[/b] and [b]Revolver[/b] above [b]Sergeant Pepper[/b] and [b]The Beatles[/b] (White Album), and choose [b]Rubber Soul[/b] for the thread title album.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 18, 2014 11:49PM)
Sergeant Pepper, though, changed the way rock albums were made.

But, yes, I'd give Rubber Soul and Revolver high marks. They just weren't game changers the way Sergeant Pepper was:

[quote] Time magazine declared it "a historic departure in the progress of music" and the New Statesman praised its elevation of pop to the level of fine art.[1] It won four Grammy Awards in 1968, including Album of the Year, the first rock LP to receive this honour...

It has been described as one of the first art rock LPs, aiding the development of progressive rock, and credited with marking the beginning of the Album Era. An important work of British psychedelia, the multigenre album incorporates diverse stylistic influences, including vaudeville, circus, music hall, avant-garde, and Western and Indian classical music. In 2003 the Library of Congress placed Sgt. Pepper in the National Recording Registry, honouring the work as "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant".[2] That same year Rolling Stone magazine ranked it number one in its list of the "500 Greatest Albums of All Time". As of 2014 it has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide, making it one of the best-selling albums in history. Professor Kevin J Dettmar, writing in the Oxford Encyclopedia of British Literature, described it as "the most important and influential rock and roll album ever recorded".[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 19, 2014 12:25AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Sergeant Pepper, though, changed the way rock albums were made.[/quote]
No question.

I simply think that [b]Rubber Soul[/b] (game changing in its own (small) way: the first album not to have the name of the band on the cover) and [b]Revolver[/b] were better musically.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 12:33AM)
Not sure about that. It's really hard to compare them with the music on Sergeant Pepper.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 19, 2014 12:41AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Not sure about that. It's really hard to compare them with the music on Sergeant Pepper.[/quote]
It wasn't intended as a theorem; just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 01:15AM)
And I really don't know if I agree or disagree. My opinion is that they are nearly impossible to compare musically because they are so different.
Message: Posted by: gypsyfish (Oct 19, 2014 02:06AM)
Blood, Sweat and Tears 3 and Bill Chase's Chase, but then I always loved trumpets.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 02:22AM)
I think that the question, "What is the greatest rock album ever?" is quite different from "What is your favorite rock album?" The former, I think, requires that some objective standard be applied and that specific reasons be given, while the latter simply asks for an opinion. My favorite rock album, for example is 1980's "Cosmo's Factory" by Creedence Clearwater Revival. But I think the greatest rock album was Sergeant Pepper for the reasons I've already given.

But, then again, the preceding paragraph is just my opinion. :eek:
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 19, 2014 02:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I think that the question, "What is the greatest rock album ever?" is quite different from "What is your favorite rock album?" The former, I think, requires that some objective standard be applied and that specific reasons be given, while the latter simply asks for an opinion. My favorite rock album, for example is 1980's "Cosmo's Factory" by Creedence Clearwater Revival. But I think the greatest rock album was Sergeant Pepper for the reasons I've already given.

But, then again, the preceding paragraph is just my opinion. :eek: [/quote]
I, too, am a big fan of Cosmo's Factory in particular, and CCR in general.

I believe that it's impossible to establish the greatest rock album ever unless all rock albums can be compared musically; that shouldn't be the only criterion, but I submit that it is an essential criterion.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 03:41AM)
I think that even if they could be compared musically, any conclusion as to which was the "greatest" would still be entirely subjective. That's why my criteria for selecting Sergeant Pepper really doesn't include any value judgement about the music, but is based primarily on its influence over the albums and rock music that followed. I don't believe that any other album had the same overall impact on the genre.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 19, 2014 06:35AM)
[quote]I think that the question, "What is the greatest rock album ever?" is quite different from "What is your favorite rock album?"[/quote]
Yes, I agree with this. I have lots of favorite albums that I like more than Tommy which I mentioned above. But...these favorite albums don't fit into the two criteria I mentioned. They instead may have one or two weak songs, or don't hang together as an album. Of course it's still all totally subjective, but it's a fun discussion nevertheless.
And no Led Zeppelin yet?

I think we're looking for the album where you can sit back and say...Ah a masterpiece!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 19, 2014 06:37AM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, arthur stead wrote:
An oldie that changed my way of thinking way back when was Deep Purple In Rock. [/quote]

Not Peter Frampton Live? ;)
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 19, 2014 10:15AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, landmark wrote:

And no Led Zeppelin yet?
[/quote]

Led Zeppelin 2.

No Klaatu?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 11:22AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]I think that the question, "What is the greatest rock album ever?" is quite different from "What is your favorite rock album?"[/quote]
Yes, I agree with this. I have lots of favorite albums that I like more than Tommy which I mentioned above. But...these favorite albums don't fit into the two criteria I mentioned. They instead may have one or two weak songs, or don't hang together as an album. Of course it's still all totally subjective, but it's a fun discussion nevertheless.
And no Led Zeppelin yet?

I think we're looking for the album where you can sit back and say...Ah a masterpiece! [/quote]

I guess I should be embarrassed for being the cliche, but if we're talking Zeppelin, I have to go with 4. The greatest song in the history of rock & roll along with Black Dog, Rock and Roll, Battle of Evermore, Going to California... Some outstanding songs and some real depth and variety.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 11:44AM)
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 11:55AM)
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 12:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]

LOL.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 01:39PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 02:31PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album. [/quote]

I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 19, 2014 03:28PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise.[/quote]
Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album.[/quote]
I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday.[/quote]
Ask me again when I get there.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Oct 19, 2014 03:49PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, arthur stead wrote:
An oldie that changed my way of thinking way back when was Deep Purple In Rock. [/quote]

Not Peter Frampton Live? ;) [/quote]

Landmark, when I was studying jazz composition and film scoring at Berklee College of Music in the mid-70's, I had a small little black and white TV. One night on The Midnight Special I saw Peter Frampton doing one of his "softer" hits, and didn't really like his music. I remember thinking to myself, "Just another pretty boy." Who knew that years later I would be joining his band and touring all over the world? But then I was always a "road warrior" at heart: you play, I play! Peter does play a mean guitar, but I wouldn't rank his music anywhere near a lot of other rock bands. Def Leppard, for example, released a couple of my all-time favorite rock albums. So did AC/DC and Foreigner. (All produced, by the way, by my good friend Mutt Lange).
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 06:59PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album. [/quote]

I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday. [/quote]


Perhaps our judgments say more about greatness itself (in this area) than our upbringings. What would it say about our upbringing if we answered the question "Who is the greatest chess player ever?" and the votes were almost all for white men?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 07:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album. [/quote]

I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday. [/quote]


Perhaps our judgments say more about greatness itself (in this area) than our upbringings. What would it say about our upbringing if we answered the question "Who is the greatest chess player ever?" and the votes were almost all for white men? [/quote]

Hardly the same question; rock and roll has never been an exclusively male or white domain. I recently read an interview with Bent Larsen and Bobby Fischer. They were asked to name the greatest chess player of all time. Fischer named Morphy and Larsen named Nimzowitsch. It could be a coincidence that Fischer named an American and Larsen named a (naturalized) Dane. Could be.

It's a real eye-opener to compare my wife's ipod to mine. Many many more female artists on hers.

And speaking of nationalism, does Neil Young's Harvest count as a rock album?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 07:25PM)
Nor has chess been an "exclusively male or white domain," at least not in the last 100 or so years. Sultan Khan and Vera Menchik come to mind.

But let's do basketball players, if you'd rather. I don't think Larry Bird is going to have too much company among white nominees.

To put it more generally, we know that greatness within certain areas that can be reasonably objectively measured is not distributed equally among races or sexes. It seems odd to assume (implicitly) that it must be equally distributed in areas that [i]can't[/i] be so easily measured, and thus that perceived differences must be "about" the observer and not the observed.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 07:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Nor has chess been an "exclusively male or white domain," at least not in the last 100 or so years. Sultan Khan and Vera Menchik come to mind.

But let's do basketball players, if you'd rather. I don't think Larry Bird is going to have too much company among white nominees.

To put it more generally, we know that greatness within certain areas that can be reasonably objectively measured is not distributed equally among races or sexes. It seems odd to assume (implicitly) that it must be equally distributed in areas that [i]can't[/i] be so easily measured, and thus that perceived differences must be "about" the observer and not the observed. [/quote]

I mainly agree with your final paragraph. However in the case of great rock n roll, the discussion tends toward autobiography: what did I admire greatly in my formative years, and still admire today?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 19, 2014 09:53PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album. [/quote]

I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday. [/quote]

Like I said, what I consider to be the "greatest" album is different from the one I'd call my favorite. I tried to use an objective standard in determining the "greatest"- influence on later albums and musicians, critical rankings, etc., most of which were summarized in the link I posted. (I'm sure that the staff at "Rolling Stone" that rated Sergeant Pepper #1 of the top 500 rock albums of all time had members who weren't even born when the album was released.

The point is, unless we can agree on some kind of objective standard to rate an album as the "greatest," we're really just talking about personal favorites. And, as far as persona favorites go, I agree with you that most would probably pick an album that came out during their formative years.

That said, does anyone remember The Fugs album "Golden Filth" which contained such classics as "Saran Wrap" and "Coca Cola D0uche?" (I don't believe it made any "greatest" lists but it sure was one of my favorites. :eek:
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 10:02PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Very masculine suggestions so far. Unless I've missed something, the only female performers mentioned so far are in Fleetwood Mac. Another couple of interesting demographic notes, but I'll leave them for someone else to raise. [/quote]

Again, the question isn't about "favorite" albums, but about THE "greatest" album. [/quote]

I admire most of the albums that are named. I'm just wondering aloud what our judgments of greatness say about us, our upbringings, our culture...

Wonder if anyone picked an album that was released after their 30th birthday. [/quote]


BTW, Californication came out after my 30th birthday.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 19, 2014 10:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:


BTW, Californication came out after my 30th birthday. [/quote]

Mine too.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 19, 2014 10:20PM)
It came out a little after my 30th. I heard the singles from it, but that was all for a few years; I didn't own it until I was in my late 30s, and I was (and remain) really astonished and impressed by the depth of the album (it has 15 songs) and its variety and quality. Some of the best songs on it never made the radio (as at as I know), and the ones that did were outstanding.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Oct 19, 2014 11:58PM)
Someone mentioned the Stones ... for me, Let It Bleed has to be one of the all-time great rock albums.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 20, 2014 12:06AM)
I think we can agree that rock is generally a male-dominated genre. I was tempted to list Joplin's Pearl as one of my choices but there are a few tracks I skip over when I play it.

If we are allowing folk/rock, then my choices include many more females: Judy Collins, Carole King, Tracy Chapman and so on...

If we are allowing R&B and soul, then Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Funkadelics, and so on.

And the over 30 question I think was certainly relevant. I think all my original choices were pre-30.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 20, 2014 12:56AM)
I we're allowing R&B, you'd HAVE to include James Brown!
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Oct 20, 2014 03:32AM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2014, Mark Boody Illusionist wrote:
My personal nominees in NO particular order:

AC/DC Back in Black

Guns N Roses Appetite for Destruction

Van Halen (debut album)

Metallica (black album)

Mark [/quote]

As for the criteria of every track being a winner and the album being a seamless whole, I'd second Back in Black. And I'd like to add Dark Side of the Moon.

If we had an influential category I'd nominate Electric Ladyland.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 20, 2014 04:08AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

And speaking of nationalism, does Neil Young's Harvest count as a rock album? [/quote]

Interesting question. Is rock something that rock musicians play, or is it a thing in and of itself?

Harvest is an astonishing album, filled with brilliance. But rock? I dunno. And the orchestral stuff--when a man needs a maid (or whatever it's called--doesn't quite do it for me.

Which reminds me of Sgt Pepper. It's also brilliant, and influential, and bla bla bla. But Within Without You, Mr Kite, She's Leaving Home? Same question: is it rock? Why?

I think that the White Album is one of the best collection of songs and musical ideas ever created in any genre whatsoever. So I guess I'd vote for the White Album.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 20, 2014 08:03AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2014, arthur stead wrote:
Someone mentioned the Stones ... for me, Let It Bleed has to be one of the all-time great rock albums. [/quote]

But Goat's Head Soup is one of the best titles and has a brilliant cover. And a couple of pretty decent songs too.
Message: Posted by: HudsonView (Oct 20, 2014 08:20AM)
The Band's second ablum.
Rain Dogs, Tom Waits.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 20, 2014 10:50AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Oct 20, 2014, arthur stead wrote:
Someone mentioned the Stones ... for me, Let It Bleed has to be one of the all-time great rock albums. [/quote]

But Goat's Head Soup is one of the best titles and has a brilliant cover. And a couple of pretty decent songs too. [/quote]

Including [i]Angie[/i], which bounces around #2-#5 on my list of Stones songs (Gimme Shelter being inviolate at the top spot).
Message: Posted by: The Hermit (Oct 20, 2014 03:21PM)
Interesting no one mentioned Pet Sounds which was a game changer for many of the 'game changer' musicians you mention. Especially for the Beatles. It started rock on a new tangent. And, Freak Out - The Mothers. The next great change was Spiders from Mars - Bowie. All favs of mine.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 20, 2014 03:42PM)
Must mention Songs in the Key of Life, even if you think it's not quite rock.
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Oct 20, 2014 05:12PM)
I've got to re-mention my first choice of album "The Who sell out".
This was, and is, by my reckoning, the only album to be based around the concept of a pirate
radio broadcast.Complete with advertisements and jingles between the tracks.
There's been nothing like it, before or since. Plus, it's got some scrotum clenching music on
there as well.
You can stick your contrived, REO BostonSpeedChicagowagon, simulcast rock by numbers drivel, right up your jacksy.
Message: Posted by: Chrystal (Oct 20, 2014 08:29PM)
Although I was born to be mild my favorite is Steppenwolf.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UWRypqz5-o

I also love Deep Purple, Smoke on the Water, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mCK05dgwgU

Led Zepplin is also on my list. The Immigrant song is my favorite, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlNhD0oS5pk
Message: Posted by: sean_mh (Oct 20, 2014 09:05PM)
Ok since I love classic prog rock, I shall chime in with some of those:

Genesis - Selling England by the Pound, Foxtrot
Yes - Close to the Edge
Jethro Tull - Aqualung, Thick as a Brick
Camel - Moonmadness
ELP - Brain Salad Surgery

I could go on and on.... lol

Sean
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 20, 2014 11:03PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]
Judas Priest is metal, not rock.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 20, 2014 11:08PM)
I don't know about albums, but my favorite song is probably "Rainbow in the Dark" by Dio. Technically it is metal though.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 21, 2014 12:13AM)
Metal IS a genre of rock. The statement that metal isn't rock is simply wrong.

True, all rock isn't metal. But all metal is rock.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 21, 2014 12:32AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]
Judas Priest is metal, not rock. [/quote]

Metal is a sub genre of rock.
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Oct 21, 2014 02:47AM)
Beatles / Queen / Rolling Stones Help change music as we know it. Seems like those British dudes know what their doing!
In the 80's you have to give Journey props! Believe it was called corporate rock, but it worked.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 21, 2014 07:08AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2014, The Hermit wrote:
Interesting no one mentioned Pet Sounds which was a game changer for many of the 'game changer' musicians you mention. [/quote]

True indeed. Without Pet Sounds there wouldn't have been a Sgt Peppers. At least not according to McCartney.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 21, 2014 07:58AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]
Judas Priest is metal, not rock. [/quote]

Metal is a sub genre of rock. [/quote]

Interesting that the Rolling Stone "500 Greatest Rock Albums" list contains jazz, funk, soul, R&B, blues and country, in addition to the various sub-genres we've been discussing.

I once read (sadly, I forget where) the claim that popular music classification was invented solely for the purpose of organizing record stores.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 08:28AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]
Judas Priest is metal, not rock. [/quote]

Metal is a sub genre of rock. [/quote]
No, Metal is its own type of music. Most Rock is blues based, but most metal is classical based. There is blues based metal, but it is not rock.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 21, 2014 11:06AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We're just a bunch of racist, sexist pigs. Homophobic, too. I mean, Queen is on the list, but where is Judas Priest? Where is Elton John? [/quote]
Judas Priest is metal, not rock. [/quote]

Metal is a sub genre of rock. [/quote]
No, Metal is its own type of music. Most Rock is blues based, but most metal is classical based. There is blues based metal, but it is not rock. [/quote]

Strongly disagree.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 21, 2014 11:11AM)
I'd agree with you, Zach, but then we'd both be wrong.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 21, 2014 11:28AM)
As for the greatest metal album, I'd throw out as nominees:

Metallica: Master of Puppets or Ride the Lightning.
Queensryche: The Warning or Operation: Mindcrime
Black Sabbath: Black Sabbath or Paranoid
Iron Maiden: The Number of The Beast
Mot÷rhead: Rock and Roll*
Fates Warning: Awaken The Guardian
Corrosion of Conformity: Deliverance
Monster Magnet: Superjudge



*Side note re: genres. There's a reason the hugely influential Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead, "The Godfather of Speed Metal," constantly refers to himself as a rock and roll singer and Motorhed as a rock and roll band and cites The Beatles and Chuck Berry among Motorhead's influences.
Message: Posted by: HudsonView (Oct 21, 2014 11:36AM)
"I once read (sadly, I forget where) the claim that popular music classification was invented solely for the purpose of organizing record stores."

Music classifications have always been market based. For years, Billboard magazine had a category called "Race Records" in their reports on record sales. Then in 1948 Jerry Wexler who was at Billboard replaced the term Race Records with the term Rythm and Blues. and thus the category R&B was formed.

By having categories, it was much more efficient to market and sell records because you promote an entire roster of musicians under a single label. And fans, who like one artist, had a built in mechanism to discover other artists.

Duke Ellington hated the category "Jazz", but was forced to accept both that and "Swing." Ellington really didn't fit under either classification, being something so unique and completely original. But that is the way of the world.

The problem comes in when you don't fit into a specific genre, or your music is multi-influenced.

But all music classifications have their roots in marketing and advertising.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 12:02PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

*Side note re: genres. There's a reason the hugely influential Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead, "The Godfather of Speed Metal," constantly refers to himself as a rock and roll singer and Motorhed as a rock and roll band and cites The Beatles and Chuck Berry among Motorhead's influences. [/quote]
Rock did defiantly create metal, but it s not a sub-genre. The Beatles have a metal song, and you can easily distinguish it from their rock music. It is call "Helter Skelter", and it greatly influenced many early metal artist like Deep Purple. They are closely related, but still very different.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 21, 2014 05:19PM)
Http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 21, 2014 05:45PM)
Rock, it all sounds very Masonic to me. The big rock groups. The Pyramids,. Crocodile Rock. Know what you mean, nudge nudge, wink wink.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 21, 2014 06:02PM)
Is "acid rock" rock?

Yes- It's another sub genre, just like metal.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 06:35PM)
No it is a sub gene of rock just like death metal is a sub genre of metal. Metal has a ton of subgenre just like rock. There is also power metal, thrash metal, black metal, classic metal, etc.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 06:35PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music [/quote]
Don't believe everything on the internet.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 21, 2014 06:39PM)
Some of these rocks are fashion trends created by marketing boys. ie Punk
http://www.examiner.com/article/greg-lake-punk-rock-wasn-t-a-musical-movement
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 06:44PM)
Maybe it started as that, but now punk is a subgenre of rock like the others.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 21, 2014 07:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music [/quote]
Don't believe everything on the internet. [/quote]

I don't; for instance, I don't believe your assertions about rock and metal. :)
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Oct 21, 2014 08:32PM)
Is there an official listing of this? If not we can argue forever. I'm not going to further argue for that reason.
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Oct 21, 2014 08:57PM)
There is no official agreement on the rock/metal argument. Some say that metal is a sub-genre of rock. Older metal definitely is and sounds like it. It is heavily based upon blues chord progressions.

Some say that metal has evolved enough to be its own genre. This can also be true- there is metal that has absolutely no musical relation to rock other than it is loud and annoys old people.

This is an old argument and won't be settled here, except in the minds of those who hold to their own opinion. So I guess I'll throw mine out there.

My opinion is that older metal is definitely a sub-genre of rock. The fact that people call Zeppelin and Deep Purple "metal" kind of amuses me. I grew up on stuff that I called metal and I would personally call Zep and DP "rock." It's all pretty subjective.

Judas Priest was metal but was still heavily rock influenced. Most people that grew up listening to it would probably say that's metal and not actual rock. Still a sub-genre.

I also tend toward the school of thought that newer, harder metal is its own genre and is too far removed from rock to be a sub-genre. The progressions and timings are to different from rock for much of it to be classified as a sub-genre. It has become its own genre. For instance- no one I knew listening to Slayer back in the old days would ever consider it rock or a sub-genre. It was too different.

The other difference being that if you called certain metal "rock" you could get punched in the face.

:heavymetal: :punkrocker:

Subjectivity rules the day with this argument. FWIW
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 21, 2014 09:12PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
No it is a sub gene of rock just like death metal is a sub genre of metal. Metal has a ton of subgenre just like rock. There is also power metal, thrash metal, black metal, classic metal, etc. [/quote]

Yep. And they're ALL sub-genres of rock.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 21, 2014 10:06PM)
Ok. There are no genres. It's all music.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 21, 2014 11:59PM)
Here's another perfect album of its genre:

The Billy Joel Piano Man album.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 22, 2014 12:15AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
Is there an official listing of this? If not we can argue forever. I'm not going to further argue for that reason. [/quote]

It depends what you mean by an official listing. There are certainly written sources (such as [i]The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Music[/i] and [i]Heavy Metal: The Music and Its Culture[/i], and there are testimonial sources, such as the aforementioned "Godfather of Speed Metal," Lemmy Kilmister, but it's not like you're going to accept that sources that disagree with your position.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 22, 2014 10:09AM)
I guess the Rock and Roll Hall of fame got it all wrong when they inducted Metallica and other metal groups. Better let them know.

http://rockhall.com/blog/tag/heavy-metal/?flavour=mobile
Message: Posted by: 0pus (Oct 22, 2014 11:09AM)
Question for Ray Tupper, who has voted for "The Who Sell Out."

Do you think that "Rael" on that album is/was a prelude to "Tommy?" I think it might be considered as indicating what happened to Captain Walker prior to the events of "Tommy." Also, parts of the instrumental sections of "Rael" bear a striking resemblance to parts of the "Underture" (I think) from "Tommy."
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Oct 22, 2014 11:47AM)
Duke Ellington didn't believe in categorizing music. He said, "There are two kinds of music. Good music, and the other kind."
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Oct 22, 2014 05:44PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2014, 0pus wrote:
Question for Ray Tupper, who has voted for "The Who Sell Out."

Do you think that "Rael" on that album is/was a prelude to "Tommy?" I think it might be considered as indicating what happened to Captain Walker prior to the events of "Tommy." Also, parts of the instrumental sections of "Rael" bear a striking resemblance to parts of the "Underture" (I think) from "Tommy." [/quote]
I'll be quite honest and say that's never crossed my mind. I'll have to listen to them in succession.
I must admit also, that when I was younger, I misheard the lyrics to Rael 1, 2, and sang them completely differently for years.
(Is that the beauty of vinyl, or the innocence of a young boy?)
The wretches and their minions, will always tip their bowlers...etc. at the time it sounded just like the original;
The redchins in their millions, will overspill their borders...etc.
I've never quite figured out the song. Who are the redchins? Or where or what Rael is? Though it does mention a captain, he is being instructed by the orator, and he never went back. Then again, he did think he was crazy.
Having read Townsends' autobiography (which is a belting read BTW!) I can't recall any mentions of this in regards to the Tommy film/album.
I must say though, it's nice to see somebody appreciate a body of work as immense as these two pieces, though they are just small fragments of a larger segment of classic musical history.
Ray.
Message: Posted by: Daryl -the other brother (Oct 23, 2014 10:29AM)
Going back to the original post, I had to check twice. No one mentioned "Dark Side of the Moon"- Pink Floyd.
With over 50 million records sold , it is one of the best selling albums of all time and certainly had a big musical influence on me.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 23, 2014 10:36AM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2014, Daryl -the other brother wrote:
Going back to the original post, I had to check twice. No one mentioned "Dark Side of the Moon"- Pink Floyd.
With over 50 million records sold , it is one of the best selling albums of all time and certainly had a big musical influence on me. [/quote]

Hard to argue with an album that was on the charts every week for more than ten years, but it's not in my top-3 Floyd albums. Which is, more than anything else, a tribute to PF, since it truly is a great album.
Message: Posted by: motown (Oct 25, 2014 09:08AM)
Seger's "Live" Bullet
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Oct 25, 2014 04:45PM)
If you're talking live albums, it would hard to top the excitement, atmosphere, and collective musicianship on Jefferson Airplane's "Bless Its Pointed Little Head."
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Oct 26, 2014 11:10AM)
What about TOOL?

ĂNIMA is the best prog/metal/rock album ever
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 26, 2014 12:13PM)
If the best prog metal album isn't The Warning or Operation: Mindcrime by Queensryche, it's got to be one of the first six Fates Warning albums.
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Oct 26, 2014 02:13PM)
Forgot about The Joshua Tree, great f#*!in album
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2014 09:27PM)
In modern times The Joshua Tree really places high.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 26, 2014 09:51PM)
By landmark' criteria, The Joshua Tree is definitely a contender. I do find it amusing that most of my musician friends don't see the appeal.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2014 10:02PM)
Yea U2 is one of those groups people like to be snobbish about. Talking about that is when they sold out and blah blah blah. Joshua Tree holds up. No matter what anyone says
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 26, 2014 10:21PM)
I think The Joshua Tree is fairly considered their best album top to bottom, but I also think their best songs were on War.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2014 10:52PM)
I enjoyed the Wide Awake in America EP.
Message: Posted by: spatlind (Oct 27, 2014 05:40PM)
Funny, I've been scrolling through and thinking that U2 deserve a mention. Without a doubt, that would most likely be 'The Joshua Tree', but I also think that 'Achtung Baby' is a phenomenal album. At their New Year's Eve gig in The Point Depot 1989, Bono said they just needed to go away and 'dream it all up again', but I doubt anyone would have predicted the sound that they came back with. The sound that came with the release of 'The Fly' was completely unexpected. A masterful re-invention that most bands are/have been completely incapable of.
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Oct 28, 2014 03:45AM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2014, Daryl -the other brother wrote:
Going back to the original post, I had to check twice. No one mentioned "Dark Side of the Moon"- Pink Floyd.
With over 50 million records sold , it is one of the best selling albums of all time and certainly had a big musical influence on me. [/quote]


I nominated it back in the middle-ish of page 2.
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Oct 28, 2014 12:26PM)
For me, I lean towards The Stones and as was mentioned (and arguably their best "Let It Bleed") but I would like to suggest "Some Girls" for overall album from them. More tunes from that album still seem to be played more than any other and the diversity of the tracks just great. I also would have a hard time ruling out Led Zeppelin, in particular the 4th album as well. My personal favorite tune to listen to is When The Levee breaks! Just love that song for some reason... the drums, then harmonica intro... Awesome! But overall, I think Beatles Sgt Peppers will ALWAYS end up No. 1 for reasons that remain obvious.

Glen
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 12:31PM)
See, Glen? We DO agree on important things! :eek:
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Oct 28, 2014 01:23PM)
Pearl Jam "Ten"

Nirvana "Nevermind"
Message: Posted by: GlenD (Oct 28, 2014 04:40PM)
Bob-Timing is everything, and the right topic!

Some truly great live albums have been recorded, let me mention for consideration "One For The Road" by The Kinks (fantastic album)! and "Strangers In The Night" by UFO! Rocks like no other, especially for its time.

Glen
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 28, 2014 04:52PM)
I agree on Strangers in The Night, but I think that live concert albums (which are essentially Greatest Hits albums) aren't a fair comparison.