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Topic: Another School Shooting today
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Oct 24, 2014 02:21PM)
At least 2 wounded and the shooter is dead. This is north of Seattle.

Http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/us/washington-school-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 24, 2014 04:34PM)
2 dead. :no:
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 24, 2014 04:40PM)
A sad day. My condolences to the families and loved ones.
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Oct 24, 2014 05:58PM)
Another member of the constitutionally protected "well regulated militia" acting out. Business as usual. Nothing to see here, move along.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2014 06:07PM)
Yea use it as a political platform. As usual. Never let a crisis go to waste huh?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Oct 24, 2014 06:11PM)
Like he said Danny, business as usual.
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Oct 24, 2014 06:30PM)
So we're not speaking to events that occur in the U.S. in terms of their political reasons and consequences in this forum?

Okay. Got it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2014 06:38PM)
Events or tragedies?
Message: Posted by: nums (Oct 24, 2014 08:11PM)
How did this happen, this was a gun free zone.

NUMS
Message: Posted by: nums (Oct 24, 2014 08:38PM)
To the person who filled out a request on my website calling me an ass...well it is easy to hide behind an non traceble email. I only wish you went to school there.



NUMS
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 24, 2014 10:50PM)
Edit
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 25, 2014 06:56PM)
Seems like it may have a been over a girl. A love triangle maybe. Like this never happened before.

Of course it was the guns fault not the hormones or lack of common sense of a teenager. But of course many here feel that teens should be able to practice sex and get pills to prevent pregnancies because they are so mature.

As stated earlier. Move on nothing to see here. :) Just another gun that got up and killed someone all by itself because guns are inherently bad and have a mind of their own.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 25, 2014 08:17PM)
You really are fixated on teenage sex, aren't you? Even though it has NOTHING to do with the tragedy. Still to be determined is how this boy had ready access to a .40 caliber hand gun.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2014 08:28PM)
Yea that sort of is what jumped out at me as well. The access part and all. I am not taking a side, or a position for that matter. Just that the detail of access seemed to jump out starkly to me.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Oct 25, 2014 08:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:

Of course it was the guns fault not the hormones or lack of common sense of a teenager. But of course many here feel that teens should be able to practice sex and get pills to prevent pregnancies because they are so mature.
[/quote]
I think it is much more because kids are NOT in control of their hormones and are so NOT emotionally mature or responsible that some parents might be in favour of making pills available.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 25, 2014 08:49PM)
Sad story indeed. My condolences.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 25, 2014 10:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
You really are fixated on teenage sex, aren't you? Even though it has NOTHING to do with the tragedy. Still to be determined is how this boy had ready access to a .40 caliber hand gun. [/quote]



You nor I know what cause him to do what he did. However I did read, while it has not yet been confirmed, there might be a girl involved. Having said that. Teen agers have sex, and sex creates extremely strong emotions. Not just in teens, but in teens I feel it is much more difficult to cope with rejection after such emotions. That is why I am concerned about the passing out of day after pills, condoms etc. Not because I am fixated on teenage sex. Most teens are not capable of handling such emotions and I imagine have a very difficult time if after experiencing sex with someone that they at the time have feelings for and are later rejected and are unable to cope. That could very well be the case here. I am not it is. But it is a very strong possibility.

I hope I made myself clear on the subject of teen sex. It is playing with fire, and the condoning of it by passing out condoms and day after pills at schools sends mixed messages to already confused teens. And please don't tell me that the passing out of said materials is not condoning it. If not what is it doing? What message is it sending? That is why I am concerned. Your views may differ and that is fine.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 25, 2014 10:18PM)
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 25, 2014 10:29PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. "r-e-p-e-r-c-u-s-s-i-o-n-s". Hope that explains it better.

Because of the "repercussions" it can cause. It should not be treated casually nor condoned or ignored by responsible adults. Is it going to happen? YES. That is not the issue. The issue is the treating of it so flippant and casually as if it means nothing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2014 10:46PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]


I was obsessed with it from the time I was about 13 until I was almost 20. Then not so much.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 25, 2014 10:46PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. "r-e-p-e-r-c-u-s-s-i-o-n-s". Hope that explains it better.

Because of the "repercussions" it can cause. [/quote]
The repercussions are precisely what the pill and condoms seek to ameliorate. If you are worried about the repercussions, why would you be against them then?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 25, 2014 10:50PM)
I actually believe he means the social repercussions and such. But you knew that.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 25, 2014 10:54PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]


I was obsessed with it from the time I was about 13 until I was almost 20. Then not so much. [/quote]

Definitely in the running for best post of the year. :)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 25, 2014 10:55PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. "r-e-p-e-r-c-u-s-s-i-o-n-s". Hope that explains it better.

Because of the "repercussions" it can cause. [/quote]
The repercussions are precisely what the pill and condoms seek to ameliorate. If you are worried about the repercussions, why would you be against them then? [/quote]

There are other repercussions other than pregnancy. Ever hear of restraint, or morals? Tried to put emotional trama and feelings into the picture, but you do not understand. Forget it. This is going no where.

REALLY? If you do not know where I am coming from I cannot explain it to you. Sorry.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Oct 25, 2014 11:04PM)
It's called willful ignorance. As for Bob, he's just trying to make you sound like a perv that's interested in teen sex but in fact, Bob just has no real answer as we all can see. Just let these kids do what they want!!! Derpty durrr!!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 25, 2014 11:15PM)
Don't be silly, Lunatik. You really don't see the irony in the fact that aces is more concerned with teenagers access to birth control pills than he is with the easy access this one had to a forty caliber handgun?

He hasn't expressed any problem at all with the latter.


Yep- Just let these kids do what they want!!! Bang bang!!
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Oct 25, 2014 11:51PM)
I'm not sure if he's more concerned about teen sex, but may think that it's an issue that ties into the other? I may be wrong though.

I'm still in favor of caning, I think that it would drive crime down into the single digits. Just a side rant : P
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 26, 2014 01:20AM)
I love how acesover has distorted the topic of the thread completely and appears to be blaming easy access to birth control for the shooting, while never once asking (or apparently even caring) about how this teenager got the gun he used to murder fellow students, including his own cousin.

He constantly points out that guns are simply inanimate objects and shouldn't be blamed for anything.

Guess what? Pills are inanimate objects too, but that doesn't stop him from blaming them for immorality.

Can we please get this thread back on topic. If aces wants to obsess about teen sex and birth control he should start a separate thread as they have nothing to do with this one.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 26, 2014 07:36AM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Why are you so fixated on teenaged sex? [/quote]

I guess I have to spell it out for you. "r-e-p-e-r-c-u-s-s-i-o-n-s". Hope that explains it better.

Because of the "repercussions" it can cause. [/quote]
The repercussions are precisely what the pill and condoms seek to ameliorate. If you are worried about the repercussions, why would you be against them then? [/quote]

There are other repercussions other than pregnancy. Ever hear of restraint, or morals? Tried to put emotional trama and feelings into the picture, but you do not understand. Forget it. This is going no where.

REALLY? If you do not know where I am coming from I cannot explain it to you. Sorry. [/quote]

Well, since I had my first serious and sexual relationship as a teen, I think I well understand. I'll bet many others here (most?) on this board could say the same. Dealing with one's emotions in such a relationship is a part of growing up. I think not to acknowledge that is willful ignorance on lunatik's part. We do best by acknowledging and educating, teaching the range of choices available, not denying.

And I'll repeat the question: since pregnancy is a major repercussion of such relationships, why would you be against teaching the proper use of birth control?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2014 08:47AM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Yep- Just let these kids do what they want!!! Bang bang!! [/quote]

"Bang Bang". Bonnie and Clyde mixed guns and sex and loom what happened!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-cf6wLEbU

Unfortunate the best part of the movie was that song.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 26, 2014 09:05AM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
I hope I made myself clear on the subject of teen sex. It is playing with fire, and the condoning of it by passing out condoms and day after pills at schools sends mixed messages to already confused teens. And please don't tell me that the passing out of said materials is not condoning it. If not what is it doing? What message is it sending? That is why I am concerned. Your views may differ and that is fine. [/quote]

A lot of teen drivers like to drive fast. Do you think that putting air bags in cars is condoning speeding? Maybe we should disable or remove air bags from cars so that young drivers won't be tempted to drive fast. After all, we're sending mixed messages when we try to make cars more invulnerable to the consequences of bad driving.

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?

Ron
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 26, 2014 10:32AM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

Yep- Just let these kids do what they want!!! Bang bang!! [/quote]

"Bang Bang". Bonnie and Clyde mixed guns and sex and loom what happened!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h-cf6wLEbU

Unfortunate the best part of the movie was that song. [/quote]
I thought I was the only one who thought that about B&C. I never understood the accolades for it.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 26, 2014 10:45AM)
Totally overrated, IMO. Critics were so blown away by how different it was that they mistakenly assumed that it must be good. It was the Jane's Addiction of movies.

That being said, it wasn't totally without bright spots. IMO, the best things about it were Estelle Parsons and Michael J. Pollard.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 26, 2014 11:06AM)
As knowledge can be used for good or evil so a world without secrets is one which full of good and evil. In my society a father hides his gun especially from his innocent children who are such because they know not. Ignorance is bliss as they say. Anyway my advice is, if you have gun, at least keep it locked up in a dark cabinet as opposed to leaving laying about where children can .pick it up and so on.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 26, 2014 07:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I love how acesover has distorted the topic of the thread completely and appears to be blaming easy access to birth control for the shooting, while never once asking (or apparently even caring) about how this teenager got the gun he used to murder fellow students, including his own cousin.

He constantly points out that guns are simply inanimate objects and shouldn't be blamed for anything.

Guess what? Pills are inanimate objects too, but that doesn't stop him from blaming them for immorality.

Can we please get this thread back on topic. If aces wants to obsess about teen sex and birth control he should start a separate thread as they have nothing to do with this one. [/quote]

Seriously Bob. If you do not have an answer of how to keep weapons out of the hands of the perpetrators please refraim from your rhetoric. Yes rhetoric. It is the same thing over and over again from you. Focus on what I posted not on what you want to say and twist what other people say. If that is all lawyers function no wonder many despise them. Of course when they need one that is a different story. However many lawyers consider and use the facts presented not something they pull out of the air and try and alter what has really been said and meant. But when they have no other means I guess they stoop there and use that tactic. Stop being one of them it is beneath you.

By the way your statement is really Asinine which follows. "Guess what? Pills are inanimate objects too, but that doesn't stop him from blaming them for immorality". They did not obtain the pills illegally they were passed out like candy at school by supposedly trusted and all knowing adults. When theydo that with firearms let me know and I will jump on your band wagon. Until then apples and oranges. Big difference and if you cannot see that than I really feel sorry for you. Of course I know you see it but again you just twist it. There is a surprise.

I can understand your statement of wanting to get the thread back on topic...but it never really went off topic but it did go in a direction of said topic that you cannot defend. So again I understand your statement. :) Nice try and dodge.


By the way however the teen got his hands on the weapon was illicit so I guess you are asking me how to prevent crime. Well if I could do that I would be considered a god and respected by just about everyone but lawyers. Reason, without crime no real need for lawyers.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 26, 2014 08:03PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
I hope I made myself clear on the subject of teen sex. It is playing with fire, and the condoning of it by passing out condoms and day after pills at schools sends mixed messages to already confused teens. And please don't tell me that the passing out of said materials is not condoning it. If not what is it doing? What message is it sending? That is why I am concerned. Your views may differ and that is fine. [/quote]

A lot of teen drivers like to drive fast. Do you think that putting air bags in cars is condoning speeding? Maybe we should disable or remove air bags from cars so that young drivers won't be tempted to drive fast. After all, we're sending mixed messages when we try to make cars more invulnerable to the consequences of bad driving.

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?

Ron [/quote]

Air bags were not put there for teens per say. They were put there for everyone. I do no think you have the option of having an airbag in your car. I believe air bags have been mandatory for ALL cars since around 1998 or earlier and not just for teen drivers. So your analogy is really not very valid or sensible. But go ahead and have fun with it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 26, 2014 08:04PM)
I guess guns that shot pills would be fun.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 26, 2014 08:12PM)
Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?


To answer your question. I would rather live in a society where there were better morals taught along with restraint, and not if it feels good do it mentality. How about you? Also a crime free society and a disease free world and no hunger. How about you? And no I do not see more teens having sex as a good thing no matter how you try and sugar coat it. Is it going to stop? Of course not. But lets not condone it. Jeez...

Also I am missing how you say unwanted abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have one. Most are done for the supposed benefit and desire of the would be mother. Get rid of the child because it interfers with my uninhibited life style. I want to be free...kill the unborn child. whee.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 26, 2014 08:20PM)
Had a relaxing day. A little chilly but went to my firing range and shot 200 rounds and had a good time and later dinner with friends. What made my day was I hit a 5" metal plate at 50 yards 5 out of 10 shots with my Gen 4 Glock 17, 9mm.

Even though many here probably believe my guns were broke because they did not kill anyone. Because they say, and I quote them here. Guns were made to kill and nothing else. I think I will leave them how they are. I really do not believe they are broke. But thanks for your insight. Again I had a relaxing day with friends.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 26, 2014 08:44PM)
Just to clarify my above post on, Oct 26, 2014 09:12 pm .

This is what R S posted:

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?


This was my response:


To answer your question. I would rather live in a society where there were better morals taught along with restraint, and not if it feels good do it mentality. How about you? Also a crime free society and a disease free world and no hunger. How about you? And no I do not see more teens having sex as a good thing no matter how you try and sugar coat it. Is it going to stop? Of course not. But lets not condone it. Jeez...

Also I am missing how you say unwanted abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have one. Most are done for the supposed benefit and desire of the would be mother. Get rid of the child because it interfers with my uninhibited life style. I want to be free...kill the unborn child. whee.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 27, 2014 12:04AM)
In NYC public high schools, certain teachers and social workers are allowed to give out condoms to students who request them. The teacher must go through a few sessions of training in what to say and do if a student asks. How to use the condom properly so it doesn't break, and so on. A parent may opt out and refuse to allow the dispensation of condoms to their child; the student's name is put on a list, and a teacher can be fired for giving condoms to those students. The opt out list usually ran to about a few dozen students.

Anyway, I had gone through this training, so I had some students come to me after school every year to get condoms. Not a lot, but some every year.

Without fail, every year, someone from the opt out list would get pregnant.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 12:27AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
In NYC public high schools, certain teachers and social workers are allowed to give out condoms to students who request them. The teacher must go through a few sessions of training in what to say and do if a student asks. How to use the condom properly so it doesn't break, and so on. A parent may opt out and refuse to allow the dispensation of condoms to their child; the student's name is put on a list, and a teacher can be fired for giving condoms to those students. The opt out list usually ran to about a few dozen students.

Anyway, I had gone through this training, so I had some students come to me after school every year to get condoms. Not a lot, but some every year.

Without fail, every year, someone from the opt out list would get pregnant. [/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you say that none of the students that were not in the opt out group "NEVER" got pregnant?

Also just another question. If you are trained in what questions to ask the student requesting condoms can you refuse to give them to that student if you do not like their answer to your questions?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 27, 2014 05:23AM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 25, 2014, acesover wrote:
I hope I made myself clear on the subject of teen sex. It is playing with fire, and the condoning of it by passing out condoms and day after pills at schools sends mixed messages to already confused teens. And please don't tell me that the passing out of said materials is not condoning it. If not what is it doing? What message is it sending? That is why I am concerned. Your views may differ and that is fine. [/quote]

A lot of teen drivers like to drive fast. Do you think that putting air bags in cars is condoning speeding? Maybe we should disable or remove air bags from cars so that young drivers won't be tempted to drive fast. After all, we're sending mixed messages when we try to make cars more invulnerable to the consequences of bad driving.

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?

Ron [/quote]

Air bags were not put there for teens per say. They were put there for everyone. I do no think you have the option of having an airbag in your car. I believe air bags have been mandatory for ALL cars since around 1998 or earlier and not just for teen drivers. So your analogy is really not very valid or sensible. But go ahead and have fun with it. [/quote]

Well, just like air bags are a safety measure for everyone who drives, birth control is a safety measure for anyone who can give birth. To deny birth control to a select class of people is kind of like denying air bags to a select class of people (ostensibly in order to teach them a lesson, i.e. that driving fast is bad).

It's not a perfect analogy, I know, but something to think about.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 27, 2014 05:38AM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, acesover wrote:
Just to clarify my above post on, Oct 26, 2014 09:12 pm .

This is what R S posted:

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?


This was my response:


To answer your question. I would rather live in a society where there were better morals taught along with restraint, and not if it feels good do it mentality. How about you? Also a crime free society and a disease free world and no hunger. How about you? And no I do not see more teens having sex as a good thing no matter how you try and sugar coat it. Is it going to stop? Of course not. But lets not condone it. Jeez...

Also I am missing how you say unwanted abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have one. Most are done for the supposed benefit and desire of the would be mother. Get rid of the child because it interfers with my uninhibited life style. I want to be free...kill the unborn child. whee. [/quote]

You have avoided my question. The 2 options in my scenario are:

1) Would you rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, or...

2) a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control.

Which of those would you rather?

Also, who says more teens having sex is a good thing? I never said that, so tell me where you get that notion from.

Regarding a woman's choice, who are you to infer a mother's motives, lifestyle, health, socio-economic conditions, or otherwise? How can you possibly have such a degree of insight into such a personal and private matter? I know you are into guns, so saying that women who have abortions just want to be free and kill an unborn child so as to live an uninhibited lifestyle is kind of like me saying that all gun owners are reckless maniacs who have a secret desire to kill or be killed.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 27, 2014 05:45AM)
Rest in peace to all the victims... :(
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Oct 27, 2014 05:45AM)
Hope this stops but violence is just part of us... :(
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 27, 2014 06:02AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, R.S. wrote:
...who says more teens having sex is a good thing?
[/quote]

I do.

But I don't think Aces was referring to me. :)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 27, 2014 08:42AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
In NYC public high schools, certain teachers and social workers are allowed to give out condoms to students who request them. The teacher must go through a few sessions of training in what to say and do if a student asks. How to use the condom properly so it doesn't break, and so on. A parent may opt out and refuse to allow the dispensation of condoms to their child; the student's name is put on a list, and a teacher can be fired for giving condoms to those students. The opt out list usually ran to about a few dozen students.

Anyway, I had gone through this training, so I had some students come to me after school every year to get condoms. Not a lot, but some every year.

Without fail, every year, someone from the opt out list would get pregnant. [/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you say that none of the students that were not in the opt out group "NEVER" got pregnant? [/quote]

No, but no one whoever asked for my advice on birth control did. That's why I think birth control info and birth control should be available even more freely. That's the clear implication of your question. But you can look at the pregnancy rates of unmarried teens in major cities where the Sex Ed. is strictly Abstinence Only compared with a more realistic approach. Lots of studies and data there.

[quote]Also just another question. If you are trained in what questions to ask the student requesting condoms can you refuse to give them to that student if you do not like their answer to your questions? [/quote]
I generally refused requests for condoms when the request is so "that I can make the most awesome water balloon ever!"

Seriously, I would never turn down a request--even if it's "for a friend." I speak to students so that they know how to use them and when to use them. Lots who think incorrectly that they can't get a venereal disease orally.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 08:48AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, acesover wrote:
Just to clarify my above post on, Oct 26, 2014 09:12 pm .

This is what R S posted:

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?


This was my response:


To answer your question. I would rather live in a society where there were better morals taught along with restraint, and not if it feels good do it mentality. How about you? Also a crime free society and a disease free world and no hunger. How about you? And no I do not see more teens having sex as a good thing no matter how you try and sugar coat it. Is it going to stop? Of course not. But lets not condone it. Jeez...

Also I am missing how you say unwanted abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have one. Most are done for the supposed benefit and desire of the would be mother. Get rid of the child because it interfers with my uninhibited life style. I want to be free...kill the unborn child. whee. [/quote]

You have avoided my question. The 2 options in my scenario are:

1) Would you rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, or...

2) a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control.

Which of those would you rather?

Also, who says more teens having sex is a good thing? I never said that, so tell me where you get that notion from.

Regarding a woman's choice, who are you to infer a mother's motives, lifestyle, health, socio-economic conditions, or otherwise? How can you possibly have such a degree of insight into such a personal and private matter? I know you are into guns, so saying that women who have abortions just want to be free and kill an unborn child so as to live an uninhibited lifestyle is kind of like me saying that all gun owners are reckless maniacs who have a secret desire to kill or be killed.

Ron [/quote]

In all fairness you are not asking me a question but rather asking me to make a decision of the lesser of two evils. Not the same thing.

Also in this topic we are discussing teenagers not WOMEN per say as woman infers older. These are kids remember. They need all the help and guidance get from so called responsible adults. Do you agree with that? We don't ask these kids, (teenagers ) if they wwant to goto school. We make them go. Do feel that is right? Just asking because of your reasoning.

On this comment you totally lost me. "I know you are into guns, so saying that women who have abortions just want to be free and kill an unborn child so as to live an uninhibited lifestyle is kind of like me saying that all gun owners are reckless maniacs who have a secret desire to kill or be killed." I guess you see something that parallels the two but I cannot find it. What does having a hobby of shooting have to do with a woman having an abortion? I shoot because I enjoy it. Do these women enjoy abortions? Or do you mean these women's hobby is having sex? Not sure where you are going with this. Confusing to say the least.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2014 08:52AM)
I have idea how this got here but I will say only this.

Abstinence works every time it is tried. Great. Now let's try to live in reality. People make mistakes. Especially young people. Abstinence only teaching is not really preparing young people for an inevitable mistake. It is demanding only perfection.

By the same token it is also not the best choice to Ferndale l devalue life further than has already been done by just having abortion on demand.

So there ya go.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2014 08:58AM)
The only reason birth control info and birth control is available even more free is population control.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 09:13AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, R.S. wrote:
...who says more teens having sex is a good thing?
[/quote]

I do.

But I don't think Aces was referring to me. :) [/quote]

Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters? If not, let me ask you. If you did would you like her having safe sex when she goes out? Because she is going to be rather popular when news gets around.

I can hear the boys now. "Yea her dad thinks it is a good idea. What a cool dude".

Glad that works for you. Or I should say sad that works for you.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 27, 2014 02:51PM)
Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters? If not, let me ask you. If you did would you like her having unsafe sex when she goes out?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2014 04:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
By the same token it is also not the best choice to Ferndale l devalue life further than has already been done. [/quote]

This was not there when I posted this! My computer is haunted.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 27, 2014 04:19PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, acesover wrote:

Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters?
[/quote]

I have a 15-year-old son and three step-children, the youngest of whom is a seven-year-old girl.

I expect all of them to probably have sex before the are married, including the the girl. If I do my job right, they all will be careful to protect themselves against diseases and unwanted pregnancies. They will learn--as I have--the joys of love, sex, and intimacy through experience rather than some kind of textbook. They might be different than me. I am a straight male who desires monogamy and fidelity, as does my wife. But should any of my children be different, then that's OK with me. I just want them all to be happy.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2014 04:37PM)
Just curious. Why do teachers tell under age children, experts concentrate too much on the need for safe sex and loving relationships, and not enough on the pleasure it can bring?
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 27, 2014 04:52PM)
It's an American thing, Tommy. Pleasure is always potentially evil. Not just sex, but sugar, alcohol, weed, Brad Christian...all bad.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 27, 2014 04:54PM)
Sorry Brad. It was just a joke. No harm done, I hope.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2014 05:00PM)
:)

I thought that maybe it was because the teachers work for government and that's what the government tells their teachers to tell the children and the teaches, they neither know nor care why.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Oct 27, 2014 05:02PM)
I've seen the light. It's so simple. Tell kids not to engage in sex. And tell kids not to shoot one another with guns. Nothing more need be done. Problems solved. Thanks, Aces!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2014 05:30PM)
Whatever happened to knights in shining armor, chainmail underwear and chastity belts?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 27, 2014 05:32PM)
There is something creepy discussing ones morality in terms of other peoples behavior.

If you don't want your kids playing in households where they have guns - forbid them to visit there. If you don't want your kids acting out in other ways give them a better example of how to behave.
Message: Posted by: Ray Tupper. (Oct 27, 2014 05:37PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, balducci wrote:
I've seen the light. It's so simple. Tell kids not to engage in sex. And tell kids not to shoot one another with guns. Nothing more need be done. Problems solved. Thanks, Aces! [/quote]
No shooting..Neither bullets nor man fat.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 27, 2014 05:51PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, balducci wrote:
I've seen the light. It's so simple. Tell kids not to engage in sex. And tell kids not to shoot one another with guns. Nothing more need be done. Problems solved. Thanks, Aces! [/quote]

If I'm reading the thread correctly, just tell your daughters not to have sex; apparently you don't need to tell your sons. They all need lots of target practice to help them not shoot each other, though.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 06:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, balducci wrote:
I've seen the light. It's so simple. Tell kids not to engage in sex. And tell kids not to shoot one another with guns. Nothing more need be done. Problems solved. Thanks, Aces! [/quote]


Exactly. Pass more laws against guns and it will solve the problem. Ha, ha. The bad guys will suddenly start to obey them.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 06:15PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters? If not, let me ask you. If you did would you like her having unsafe sex when she goes out? [/quote]

What a stupid question to ask me.

I have two daughters, both now married and 4 grandchildren. However when they were teenagers and went on a date I did not ask them if they had condoms so they could have safe sex. In other words I did not then, or now, promote sex between teens. If you feel that your daughter needs condoms when she goes on a date. I guess you had better remind her to take them with her so she can have a good time. Would not want to interfere with her or her date's fun. So when they are going out the say, "Don't forget the condoms and have fun".
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 27, 2014 06:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 26, 2014, acesover wrote:
Just to clarify my above post on, Oct 26, 2014 09:12 pm .

This is what R S posted:

Anyway, I would rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, than a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control. How about you?


This was my response:


To answer your question. I would rather live in a society where there were better morals taught along with restraint, and not if it feels good do it mentality. How about you? Also a crime free society and a disease free world and no hunger. How about you? And no I do not see more teens having sex as a good thing no matter how you try and sugar coat it. Is it going to stop? Of course not. But lets not condone it. Jeez...

Also I am missing how you say unwanted abortions. No one is forcing anyone to have one. Most are done for the supposed benefit and desire of the would be mother. Get rid of the child because it interfers with my uninhibited life style. I want to be free...kill the unborn child. whee. [/quote]

You have avoided my question. The 2 options in my scenario are:

1) Would you rather live in a society that has perhaps slightly more teens engaging in (SAFE/PROTECTED) sex resulting in a drastic reduction in unwanted pregnancies/abortions, or...

2) a society where teen sexual activity may be down, but with many unwanted pregnancies/abortions as a result of the lack of access to birth control.

Which of those would you rather?

Also, who says more teens having sex is a good thing? I never said that, so tell me where you get that notion from.

Regarding a woman's choice, who are you to infer a mother's motives, lifestyle, health, socio-economic conditions, or otherwise? How can you possibly have such a degree of insight into such a personal and private matter? I know you are into guns, so saying that women who have abortions just want to be free and kill an unborn child so as to live an uninhibited lifestyle is kind of like me saying that all gun owners are reckless maniacs who have a secret desire to kill or be killed.

Ron [/quote]

In all fairness you are not asking me a question but rather asking me to make a decision of the lesser of two evils. Not the same thing.
[/quote]

No... the question is "would you rather (1 or 2 above)"? But okay, I'll go along and agree that I'm "asking you to make a decision of the lesser of two evils". Then which of those, in your opinion, is the lesser of two evils??

[quote]
Also in this topic we are discussing teenagers not WOMEN per say as woman infers older. These are kids remember. They need all the help and guidance get from so called responsible adults. Do you agree with that?
[/quote]

Yes. Help and guidance in teaching them about safe sex, and about all the consequences of sexual activity. That would be the responsible thing to do as an adult, no?

[quote]
We don't ask these kids, (teenagers ) if they wwant to goto school. We make them go. Do feel that is right? Just asking because of your reasoning.
[/quote]

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that because we make them go to school, we should "make" them refrain from having sex? How is that possible?

[quote]
On this comment you totally lost me. "I know you are into guns, so saying that women who have abortions just want to be free and kill an unborn child so as to live an uninhibited lifestyle is kind of like me saying that all gun owners are reckless maniacs who have a secret desire to kill or be killed." I guess you see something that parallels the two but I cannot find it. What does having a hobby of shooting have to do with a woman having an abortion? I shoot because I enjoy it. Do these women enjoy abortions? Or do you mean these women's hobby is having sex? Not sure where you are going with this. Confusing to say the least. [/quote]

Don't know if you are truly this obtuse or if you are just messing with me here. I suspect the former.


Ron
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Oct 27, 2014 06:52PM)
Inspired by this news story, and by acesover's heroic firing of his Glock, I am going to aquire a gun, in order to prove that functional guns are designed for fun and not for killing and maiming.

Oh happy day.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2014 07:02PM)
If used properly a firearm IS a form of birth control. Now I see the connection.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 27, 2014 07:16PM)
Sadomasochism, seems to be the new normal.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 27, 2014 07:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters? If not, let me ask you. If you did would you like her having unsafe sex when she goes out? [/quote]

What a stupid question to ask me.

I have two daughters, both now married and 4 grandchildren. However when they were teenagers and went on a date I did not ask them if they had condoms so they could have safe sex. In other words I did not then, or now, promote sex between teens.[/quote]
So you didn't talk to your dating daughters about birth control and safe sex?
Hmmm and you call me stupid...
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 27, 2014 08:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, landmark wrote:
Just curious. Do you have any teenage daughters? If not, let me ask you. If you did would you like her having unsafe sex when she goes out? [/quote]

What a stupid question to ask me.

I have two daughters, both now married and 4 grandchildren. However when they were teenagers and went on a date I did not ask them if they had condoms so they could have safe sex. In other words I did not then, or now, promote sex between teens.[/quote]
So you didn't talk to your dating daughters about birth control and safe sex?
Hmmm and you call me stupid... [/quote]

Not true. But I certainly did not give them condoms when they dated as teens. There is a difference in talking to them and handing them a package of condoms while asking them to have high moral values and respect themselves. Don't you feel that is sort of a mixed message? Of course if you see nothing wrong with your daughter having teen sex that is your choice. We just have different ideals in that regard.

Be honest here. What is it about birth control that teens don't understand? Like they never heard of safe sex. :) Hearing about safe sex and talking to them about safe sex is much different than condoning it and giving them condoms. Maybe we are on different pages here.

You all know I am a pro gun person. So when teaching someone safety with a gun I do not tell them to put on bullet proof vests just in case they want to shoot at each other. :) I kind of let them know that shooting at one another is a no, no. :) Same goes with teen sex. I emphasize morality and the consequences of teen sex. But I do not after saying that hand them a pack of condoms. Again kind of a mixed message. However that was just me and I no longer have that worry. Others have different values and opinions. To each his own. Who am I to tell you how to raise your children? As I often said. Do as you please. Everything here is my opinion and nothing more. And we all know about opinions.

BTW. You did not say teens having sex was a good thing. It was stoneunhinged. Unhinged...very fitting if I must say.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 28, 2014 12:19AM)
[quote]Be honest here. What is it about birth control that teens don't understand?[/quote]
Lots. They have lots of questions. And many have lots of misconceptions. Just for some simple examples--you'd be surprised how many high school teens I've taught think that there's not a very big chance of getting pregnant if it's only one time. And who think that a woman cannot get pregnant if the man pulls out before he ejaculates. Or who don't know the right way to leave some space at the end when putting on a condom in order to reduce the chances of it breaking. Or holding on to the condom when pulling out, so nothing accidentally spills out. Or how to speak up and insist that the man use a condom in the first place. Or... well you get the idea.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Oct 28, 2014 12:37AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
If I'm reading the thread correctly, just tell your daughters not to have sex; apparently you don't need to tell your sons. [/quote]

That's right.

Girls have morals. Boys get harny.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 28, 2014 05:11AM)
SURPRISE! FREE BIRTH CONTROL AND SEX EDUCATION SLASH RATES OF TEEN PREGNANCY AND ABORTION:
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/free-contraception-lowers-teen-pregnancy-rates-100114

Teens who were educated about methods of birth control and who received free contraception were significantly less likely to get pregnant or to get an abortion compared to other sexually active teens, according to a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Nearly three-quarters of the 1,404 teens who took part in the Contraceptive CHOICE Project chose intrauterine devices, or IUDs, which are small devices placed in the uterus to interrupt the process of insemination, or contraceptive implants, which are small plastic rods inserted into the arm that continuously release a synthetic hormone called progestin to prevent pregnancy. Health workers in the project promoted these forms of contraception since they are long-acting, providing protection for up to 10 years.

The Contraceptive CHOICE Project included more than 9,000 St. Louis women and teens who were at high risk for unplanned pregnancy and were open to trying a new form of birth control. Participants had various birth control options to choose from, including IUDs, implants, pills, rings, condoms, and patches.

Of the teens in the study, nearly 500 were between 14 and 17 years old when they enrolled. Half of the teens in this age group reported that they had had an unplanned pregnancy, and 18 percent reported at least one abortion.

“The CHOICE Project removed three important barriers for teens … education, access, and cost,” said Gina Secura, Ph.D., a researcher at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis and director of the CHOICE Project, in a press statement. “The simultaneous removal of these common barriers ... resulted in much lower pregnancy rates. By simply removing one barrier, we probably would not have seen the same results.”

The results of the birth control intervention were astounding. The annual pregnancy rate for teens ages 15 to 19 in the study was 3.4 percent. That compares to 15.9 percent for all U.S. teens who are sexually active. Teens in the study had an average annual birth rate of 1.9 percent, compared to 9.4 percent for all sexually active U.S. teens.

Teens in the study also had lower abortion rates. From 2008 to 2013, the average annual abortion rate for teens in the study was almost 1 percent. That compares to 4.2 percent in 2008 for all sexually active teens.

“The study suggests that we can successfully reduce these outcomes [teen pregnancies, births, and abortion rates] if we make changes in how we provide contraceptive care to teens in the U.S.,” Secura said.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention aims to reduce the nation's teen birth rate by 20 percent by 2015.


Ron
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 28, 2014 06:35AM)
RS that study is only talking about "sexually active" teens. It's good as far as it goes.

But if you search around (sorry, I'm lazy right now) you'll find research that shows that girls who took a "Virginity Pledge" in an least one established program were more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy than those who didn't pledge.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Oct 28, 2014 07:55AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, landmark wrote:
RS that study is only talking about "sexually active" teens. It's good as far as it goes.

But if you search around (sorry, I'm lazy right now) you'll find research that shows that girls who took a "Virginity Pledge" in an least one established program were more likely to have an unwanted pregnancy than those who didn't pledge. [/quote]

I'd be cautious of selection bias. I suspect that many girls who take the pledge are "trying to be strong" in whatever circumstances they find themselves in, but girls who couldn't be bothered see that there's not reason to. (With exceptions on both sides, of course.)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 09:41AM)
I mentioned a while back about being on the same page. After reading many posts it is obvious we are not on the same page. My idea is more of a morality issue and should be taught and stressed and then practiced by the teen. Others here seem to feel that it is OK for teens to have sex as long as it is safe. That is definitely two different pages. In fact a completely different book.

News Flash here. Teens don't use their brain as they should. All the more reason to teach them and try and guide them. Not say, OK...give into your sexual desires just be careful. Wrong...don't you see that? Neither of these two schools will solve the problem completely. They are teens. Let me repeat that. They are teens and this fact should be considered. Why do you think they are not allowed to vote until older or pocess firearms until older and drive until older along with many other things how about alcohol and the list goes on. Because they are teens and as of yet in life do not have enough life experience or lets be honest here enough sense.

We are all on the same side here but our methods and ideas issues differ. By that I mean that I don't believe anyone here wants more teens to have sex or abortions. We seem to differ on a moral scale and people wanting to be more progressive and I don't know how to put it...maybe politically correct. But promoting sex for teens just as long as it is safe is inherently wrong.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Oct 28, 2014 09:51AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
But promoting sex for teens just as long as it is safe is inherently wrong. [/quote]

Very True! We live in a morally declining world. sad......
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2014 10:27AM)
Morality is taught at home by family. Landmark is speaking about teachers. Apples and hand grenades.

You will never come to anything resembling agreement as you are talking two different agendas.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 10:47AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
But promoting sex for teens just as long as it is safe is inherently wrong. [/quote]

Very True! We live in a morally declining world. sad...... [/quote]

Yes, I agree.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 10:48AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
Morality is taught at home by family. Landmark is speaking about teachers. Apples and hand grenades.

You will never come to anything resembling agreement as you are talking two different agendas. [/quote]

Yes, I agree.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Oct 28, 2014 10:49AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, R.S. wrote:
SURPRISE! FREE BIRTH CONTROL AND SEX EDUCATION SLASH RATES OF TEEN PREGNANCY AND ABORTION:
http://www.healthline.com/health-news/free-contraception-lowers-teen-pregnancy-rates-100114

Teens who were educated about methods of birth control and who received free contraception were significantly less likely to get pregnant or to get an abortion compared to other SEXUALLY ACTIVE TEENS
...
[/quote]

So, sexually active teens given free contraceptives are less likely to get pregnant than sexually active teens NOT given free contraceptives.

Wow. That IS a big surprise! :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 28, 2014 12:25PM)
Yes, obvious, yet public policy is not always in line with the obvious. For example, in Utah can sexually active teens buy birth control products off the shelf without going through a pharmacist?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 12:35PM)
Congratulations to acesover, for completely diverting this thread. The original question was how the shooter had easy access to a forty caliber handgun. So, not wanting to confront that very real, and deadly, problem, he changed to topic to his obsession with birth control and teen age sex.

Well done.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 28, 2014 12:54PM)
Actually, the original post didn't ask a question at all; it posted a link to the story, and a couple of people offered RIP type responses. Then we had a snarky anti-Second-Amendment post, and a few posts later you tried to divert the thread from "This happened" to a question of access (which, admittedly, is much more relevant to the story than birth control is).

Access doesn't appear to be much of a mystery, IMO. The gun was his father's, so I'd say he had access because it was stored negligently. Res ipsa loquitur. That will always be a possibility.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 01:24PM)
I'm sorry that I diverted the thread to a topic that was actually relevant to the OP, Lobo.

Here's another relevant diversion- If, in fact, the firearm was negligently stored, it seems to me that the father should face criminal or at least civil liability for the outcome of his negligence.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Oct 28, 2014 02:53PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Congratulations to acesover, for completely diverting this thread. The original question was how the shooter had easy access to a forty caliber handgun. So, not wanting to confront that very real, and deadly, problem, he changed to topic to his obsession with birth control and teen age sex.

Well done. [/quote]

I'd say that MOST threads move onto different topics and at some point move back to the original topic at hand. It takes at least 2 to tango and there's more than enough willing participants on both sides!
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 03:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I'm sorry that I diverted the thread to a topic that was actually relevant to the OP, Lobo.

Here's another relevant diversion- If, in fact, the firearm was negligently stored, it seems to me that the father should face criminal or at least civil liability for the outcome of his negligence. [/quote]

Well not al teens want to go shoot the heck out of their peers unless they have a reason..So I believe the reason this thread took a bit of a turn was because of the article that said the shooting possibly involved a girl. Then it progressed into teen sex and responsibility. Sorry you missed the connection. Pay attention Robert and stop googling or whatever you do, or stand in the corner.

Again I believe it was explained the gun was his fathers. Wow how could he possibly get to that gun? Lets see now he is a teen...here we go...we should lock up the guns but pass out the condoms. Just had to say that. If you want to blame the father go ahead. however what irf it was ini a safe and he found the combinationin his fathers wallet and opened the safe? Still blame the father? Where does it end?

We write laws on the books. Guess what. Criminals break them. If he wanted a gun he would get it one way or another whether it was easy or hard.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Oct 28, 2014 03:18PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
Lets see now he is a teen...here we go...we should lock up the guns but pass out the condoms. [/quote]

I've got a couple of teenage neighbor kids across the street. Call me weird, but yes, I'd rather they have condoms than guns.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 03:30PM)
Acesover-

Now you're obsessing about me "googling" or "whatever else I do?" (Unlike you, I do read and research things rather than relying solely on my own preconceived beliefs and prejudices.)

Guess what? The boy wasn't a criminal UNTIL AFTER he used his father's negligently stored weapon. Why do you refuse to address that point rather than focusing on inanimate objects like pills and condoms?

You really are trying to avoid the real issue here, aren't you? Why?

Now go get your shine box. :eek:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 28, 2014 04:17PM)
Well, have to say that I don't regret helping to divert this thread. Thought it would be more interesting to discuss something we [i]haven't [/i] discussed ad nauseum before.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 28, 2014 04:20PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
Lets see now he is a teen...here we go...we should lock up the guns but pass out the condoms. [/quote]

I've got a couple of teenage neighbor kids across the street. Call me weird, but yes, I'd rather they have condoms than guns. [/quote]
"Because People Don't Kill Bullets, Condoms Kill Bullets."
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 05:55PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover-

Now you're obsessing about me "googling" or "whatever else I do?" (Unlike you, I do read and research things rather than relying solely on my own preconceived beliefs and prejudices.)

Guess what? The boy wasn't a criminal UNTIL AFTER he used his father's negligently stored weapon. Why do you refuse to address that point rather than focusing on inanimate objects like pills and condoms?

You really are trying to avoid the real issue here, aren't you? Why?

Now go get your shine box. :eek: [/quote]

No one is a criminal till they get caught.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 05:58PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
Lets see now he is a teen...here we go...we should lock up the guns but pass out the condoms. [/quote]

I've got a couple of teenage neighbor kids across the street. Call me weird, but yes, I'd rather they have condoms than guns. [/quote]
"Because People Don't Kill Bullets, Condoms Kill Bullets." [/quote]

If you put your bullets in a condom and try to load them they won't work. So I guess condoms can save lives.

See! I am not hard to get along with. I understand your reasoning.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 28, 2014 06:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover-

Now you're obsessing about me "googling" or "whatever else I do?" (Unlike you, I do read and research things rather than relying solely on my own preconceived beliefs and prejudices.)

Guess what? The boy wasn't a criminal UNTIL AFTER he used his father's negligently stored weapon. Why do you refuse to address that point rather than focusing on inanimate objects like pills and condoms?

You really are trying to avoid the real issue here, aren't you? Why?

Now go get your shine box. :eek: [/quote]

I followed your post and was about to agree when you stated "beliefs". But you ruined it when you included "prejudices". You always have to ruin everything. :) Go stand in the corner until you learn how to interact with the other children. :)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 06:05PM)
LOL!

So, again, why are you trying to avoid the real issue here?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2014 06:09PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover-

Now you're obsessing about me "googling" or "whatever else I do?" (Unlike you, I do read and research things rather than relying solely on my own preconceived beliefs and prejudices.)

Guess what? The boy wasn't a criminal UNTIL AFTER he used his father's negligently stored weapon. Why do you refuse to address that point rather than focusing on inanimate objects like pills and condoms?

You really are trying to avoid the real issue here, aren't you? Why?

Now go get your shine box. :eek: [/quote]

No one is a criminal till they get caught. [/quote]

Is a criminal not one who commits a crime? Getting caught just makes you not really good at it is all.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Oct 28, 2014 06:26PM)
Acesover- What prior crimes had this boy committed?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (Oct 28, 2014 09:46PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, landmark wrote:
Yes, obvious, yet public policy is not always in line with the obvious. For example, in Utah can sexually active teens buy birth control products off the shelf without going through a pharmacist? [/quote]

yes
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 29, 2014 01:07AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover-

Now you're obsessing about me "googling" or "whatever else I do?" (Unlike you, I do read and research things rather than relying solely on my own preconceived beliefs and prejudices.)

Guess what? The boy wasn't a criminal UNTIL AFTER he used his father's negligently stored weapon. Why do you refuse to address that point rather than focusing on inanimate objects like pills and condoms?

You really are trying to avoid the real issue here, aren't you? Why?

Now go get your shine box. :eek: [/quote]

No one is a criminal till they get caught. [/quote]

Is a criminal not one who commits a crime? Getting caught just makes you not really good at it is all. [/quote]


That sounds extremely logical. I agree.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Oct 29, 2014 01:09AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Acesover- What prior crimes had this boy committed? [/quote]

I don't know anything about his background. So I cannot say. But if this was his first criminal act it sure was a humdinger.