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Topic: What do you consider mentalism?
Message: Posted by: ummer21 (Dec 3, 2014 06:39PM)
So I have been performing magic for over two years now. Christmas parties, school for my middle school age students, friends, family etc.basically anyone who is willing to give up the minutes of their lives to watch me perform. I have a few tricks that I consider "reading their minds" tricks like "A Word In A Million" And some card tricks. Would you consider these tricks pure mentalism out just entry level magic?
Message: Posted by: E.E. (Dec 3, 2014 06:46PM)
Mentalists don't do "card tricks"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 3, 2014 06:47PM)
There is already a lengthy thread on this (and many old ones as well) that is ongoing:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=572045&forum=15

Short answer- a single mental effect presented amidst a program of card tricks or magic tricks is not mentalism.
Message: Posted by: JayFredericks (Dec 3, 2014 06:58PM)
If what you are presenting displays some kind of uncanny mental ability, you're ONLY doing effects that display some kind of uncanny mental ability (whether or not cards are involved), and you are presenting yourself as someone who has some sort of uncanny mental ability, then it's mentalism.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 3, 2014 07:54PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2014, ummer21 wrote: I have a few tricks that I consider "reading their minds" tricks like "A Word In A Million" And some card tricks. Would you consider these tricks pure mentalism out just entry level magic? [/quote]

Surely not mentalism. Mentalists don't do tricks. Mentalism is much, much more than just mental-based "tricks." If anything what you are referring to is simply mental-magic.
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Dec 4, 2014 04:48AM)
Mental magic and Mentalism are separated by a thin line.
This is the first IMHO crucial step of appreciating what Mentalism can be defined as.
The next step is to understand what the higher state of mental abilities could be on many levels from more humble memory demonstrations, quick calculations etc to more psychology attached ones like lie detection, influence, NLP etc to even more impossible like mind reading, clairvoyance etc and lastly to spooky ones like communicating with dead etc. Of course, the list is endless but I just included some basic ones.
When this step is appreciated, the performer should then define which claims he wants to carry with him by being socially responsible and comfortable with himself.
And then just stick to these claims and not getting seduced by new claims that may seem sexy or just have this cool method behind.
To be congruent in other words...
Then the journey becomes really exciting and the performer becomes a true performer of mentalism without trying to be a real mentalist which is a dead-end journey...
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 4, 2014 05:33AM)
How about someone who does an actual legit memorization of a full deck of cards?

Is that considered Mentalism?
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 4, 2014 05:33AM)
Or something else altogether?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 06:35AM)
I consider it to be mentalism because I present it as an illustration of the visualization techniques I mastered as I learned to read minds.

(Yes- I do the memorization legitimately, as well as my version that incorporates a s***k.)

All of this, along with an entire history of the effect as well as several of my variations, appears in my latest eBook, Master Card Memory.

http://marketplaceofthemind.com/products/mastcard/
Message: Posted by: Pakar Ilusi (Dec 4, 2014 06:36AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I consider it to be mentalism because I present it as an illustration of the visualization techniques I mastered as I learned to read minds.

(Yes- I do the memorization legitimately, as well as my version that incorporates a s***k.)

All of this, along with an entire history of the effect as well as several of my variations, appears in my latest eBook, Master Card Memory.

http://marketplaceofthemind.com/products/mastcard/ [/quote]

Thanks Bob... ;)
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 4, 2014 06:40AM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2014, ummer21 wrote:
So I have been performing magic for over two years now. Christmas parties, school for my middle school age students, friends, family etc.basically anyone who is willing to give up the minutes of their lives to watch me perform. I have a few tricks that I consider "reading their minds" tricks like "A Word In A Million" And some card tricks. Would you consider these tricks pure mentalism out just entry level magic? [/quote]
Without knowing what these card tricks are it's an impossible question to answer.

Even though some are trying to.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 06:52AM)
Roylan- That's because "some of us" include those who don't feel that a mental effect sandwiched in between "some card tricks" constitutes mentalism in any case. It's clear from the OP that he primarily performs magic. ("For over two years now.")
Message: Posted by: Sensio (Dec 4, 2014 07:23AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I consider it to be mentalism because I present it as an illustration of the visualization techniques I mastered as I learned to read minds.

(Yes- I do the memorization legitimately, as well as my version that incorporates a s***k.)

All of this, along with an entire history of the effect as well as several of my variations, appears in my latest eBook, Master Card Memory.

http://marketplaceofthemind.com/products/mastcard/ [/quote]

100% agree.
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 4, 2014 02:12PM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Roylan- That's because "some of us" include those who don't feel that a mental effect sandwiched in between "some card tricks" constitutes mentalism in any case. It's clear from the OP that he primarily performs magic. ("For over two years now.") [/quote]
But what are those 'card tricks'? I've seen (and I'm pretty certain you have) many mentalists over the years perform a series of effects that concentrate on cards. It worked for them. Although I suspect that the poster is doing magic tricks it could be how he's phrasing it.

So I would prefer to ask him what those 'card tricks' are, then we can offer an informed opinion rather than the usual 'mentalists don't do card tricks' that is trotted out time after time. Finding out what he's actually performing, rather than giving him all the usual platitudes, might answer the question he asked.

It's a clever man that can answer the question "would you consider these tricks pure mentalism" without knowing what those tricks are!
Message: Posted by: kasper (Dec 4, 2014 02:31PM)
The 13 steps to Mentalism has a complete chapter on card tricks. The chapter is titled "CARD TRICKS." Those are ones that mentalists can perform.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 02:52PM)
Roylan-

The OP clearly stated that he's a magician and only has a couple of tricks he thinks might be mentalism. So he himself makes it clear that he doesn't do "pure mentalism," and isn't even sure what mentalism is- hence the title of the thread.

A good rule of thumb is that if someone asks "what is mentalism?" what he's doing probably isn't.
Message: Posted by: hashtagmagic (Dec 4, 2014 03:59PM)
Bob Cassidy is mentalism.
Message: Posted by: george1953 (Dec 4, 2014 04:38PM)
Not bad 23 posts in the last hour or so, soon be up to 50.
Message: Posted by: hashtagmagic (Dec 4, 2014 04:46PM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, george1953 wrote:
Not bad 23 posts in the last hour or so, soon be up to 50. [/quote]

Thanks! You're being too kind, my friend. I've only done about 10. I've been lurking around with these questions for about half a year. I'm actually very far behind!
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 4, 2014 04:57PM)
Bob - as ever I respect and admire you, not least your longevity in a business that soon sorts out the men from the boys. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with you. On this, we'll have to agree to disagree.

He has given no indication whatsoever what his tricks are, so no one can answer whether or not they are mentalism, pure or otherwise. What if one of his card tricks is a full deck memorisation?

I watched a performer at the local pub a few nights ago. He performed several card tricks. Would you like to tell me if they were pure mentalism or not.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 05:06PM)
The OP is very clear that he has been a magician for the last two years and not a mentalist. He wouldn't be asking what mentalism is if he was actually performing it.

My longevity? What does that mean? I'm really not that old. (comparatively speaking :eek:)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 4, 2014 07:47PM)
Methinks, Bob, that you have overstated your position and made some un-warrented assumptions.

I agree that he would not be asking the question is he was clear on the fine distinctions of what Mentalism is (by your definitions), but not everyone agrees with your definition --
most lay persons would not and any newcomer to the Café may not. Many people use the term "magician" to cover anyone apparently doing the impossible. T<hey do not know that Mentalists are afraid of the term.

regardless ....

he did not say he was magician or that he was not a mentalist. He said, "I have been performing magic for over two years now." Big difference!

You and others may not like the term "magician" -- with good reason. But what you do as a Mentalist is "magic" whether you like it or not. You create an illusion of doing something impossible. That is what the word means.

To extrapolate his statement into your, "is very clear he has been a magician ... and not a mentalist" is fallacious and beneath the quality response one expects from you. It is certainly not accurate.

His question indicates a desire to gain clarity that might effect his future choices. Your prejudicial response might not support his growth as a Mentalist.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 08:07PM)
Mentalists are afraid of the term "magicians?" Talk about ridiculous statements unsupported by facts. You've obviously never read anything about the great respect and love I have for the art of magic.

"Methinks" there is a comprehension problem here. The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.


A simple review of the OP's previous posts illustrates my point. On November 22nd he posted the following in "Magic on a Moments Notice":

[quote]Color changing deck. I recommended this trick for a beginner a couple days ago. It is pretty easy and resets in about 2 seconds. Also A Word In A Million is a great trick. It drove me crazy until I learned how to do it. Those two will get you a reputation.[/quote]

That also shows what type of card tricks he does along with a mental effect.

Simple, really.

And to call my response "prejudicial" is beneath you, Ken.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Dec 4, 2014 10:07PM)
Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Dec 4, 2014 10:42PM)
Wise man say, "If you do NOT ask 'what is a mentalist?' you are not a mentalist." Beginning of argument? Hope not.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 4, 2014 10:53PM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, Bill Cushman wrote:
Wise man say, "If you do NOT ask 'what is a mentalist?' you are not a mentalist." Beginning of argument? Hope not. [/quote]

No argument. But your wise man's statement is a lot deeper than its superficial meaning.
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 5, 2014 12:43AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, Robb wrote:
Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument. [/quote]
Simplistic nonsense which is oft repeated and ill advised.

The original poster didn't ask what mentalism is. He said that he has a few tricks that he considers reading their minds and wondered if they were pure mentalism. It should be clear that you cannot answer the question without knowing what those tricks are. Even if you've read his previous posts (which most on here won't do) you still don't know what tricks he's referring to. I strongly suspect that they are not pure mentalism but would have preferred him to say what they are, then have experienced performers offer advice and comments that will help him develop.

Your comments will not help this person and assuming we respect beginners enough to help rather than simply dismiss them, your response says more about you than him.

Bob - I meant you've been in the business long enough to speak from experience.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Dec 5, 2014 12:49AM)
Agreed Bob, it could be parsed "rabinically" for generations to come. I admittedly heard the words with a Yiddish lilt, borne of paraphrasing echoes of memories of discussions among Talmudic scholars. Thank you for noticing!
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 01:02AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

"The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.

[/quote]

Fine -- but that is not what you stated the first time above -- rather than quote him you rephrased what he said in biased terms.

I have no problem with what you think about magic -- only what you choose to say -- and it is your words that will effect new readers.

and no, inferring a positive conclusion from a negative claim is not "logical" -- it is an assumption based on a fallacy. The fact that your conclusion is probably correct does not mean the process was logical.

As noted above, I agree that his asking the question indicates he is not clear as to what persons on the Café consider to be Mentalism. Yet you repeat the explanation.

I agree with you and you argue with it. I support your views all the time. This time I believe your statement was incorrect, and you now indicate was based on posts not on this thread. ( you pre-judged his statements here)

I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours. Won't accurate quotes serve as well?

I want to respect ALL of what you write -- not just some of it. I was not "confused" -- just disappointed.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Dec 5, 2014 01:09AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, Robb wrote:
Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument. [/quote]
I'm a mentalist and I asked...
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=572045&forum=15
Message: Posted by: Magic and Drums (Dec 5, 2014 02:14AM)
Isn't it also a question of presentation? I know lots of magicians and so-called mentalists who do what they consider "pure mentalism". But you can see - and feel - they are magicians. Some of them try to imitate Derren Brown ... not very well ... still they are considered as magicians by their spectators and participants. While you ask yourself after watching Derren: "Is this real? Is that possible?" The same thing in the hands of another performer gets totally different reactions: "How did you do that?"

Just my observations though...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 5, 2014 03:58AM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, funsway wrote:
[quote]On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

"The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.

[/quote]

Fine -- but that is not what you stated the first time above -- rather than quote him you rephrased what he said in biased terms.

I have no problem with what you think about magic -- only what you choose to say -- and it is your words that will effect new readers.

and no, inferring a positive conclusion from a negative claim is not "logical" -- it is an assumption based on a fallacy. The fact that your conclusion is probably correct does not mean the process was logical.

As noted above, I agree that his asking the question indicates he is not clear as to what persons on the Café consider to be Mentalism. Yet you repeat the explanation.

I agree with you and you argue with it. I support your views all the time. This time I believe your statement was incorrect, and you now indicate was based on posts not on this thread. ( you pre-judged his statements here)

I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours. Won't accurate quotes serve as well?

I want to respect ALL of what you write -- not just some of it. I was not "confused" -- just disappointed. [/quote]

Whatever.

I accurately quoted what the OP said. I also directed him (in my very first post on this thread) to another thread in which I posted a detailed explanation of what I consider mentalism to be.

And I'll ignore the pompous snark in your statement, "I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours." I have done no such thing, as anyone who has actually bothered to read any of my books knows full well.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Dec 5, 2014 03:59AM)
On recent months on the Café, people have argued for the following to qualify as mentalism: tarot readers, palm readers, crystal ball readers, the psychic reader down the market, people doing the "real thing", table hoppers, strolling magicians doing mental magic, magicians doing mentalism effects, magicians telling their audience all mentalism is magic tricks etc etc.

We appear to be a rather broad church, which may be good or bad, depending on your point of view.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 5, 2014 04:21AM)
It's only a matter of time, Martin, before someone argues that the egg bag is mentalism if you have a prediction inside of the egg. Or that the Asrah Levitation is an effective demonstration of PK.
Message: Posted by: Funnybaldbloke (Dec 5, 2014 06:18AM)
Already been done Bob!

A show I worked on had a voice over that said, during the Asrah, that it was accomplished by the power of the mind.

The rest of the show was just as bad.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 5, 2014 06:20AM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
It's only a matter of time, Martin, before someone argues that the egg bag is mentalism if you have a prediction inside of the egg. Or that the Asrah Levitation is an effective demonstration of PK. [/quote]

its a metaphor for creation, bob - as well you know! you crack the egg on the 13 steps and it bleeds...
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 06:34AM)
Well Bob, I was actually planning on getting one of your books since my wife asked what I might want for Christmas.

Now, your choice of language in a disparaging way belays a solid "logical" position. Now, the world is separated into those who "bothered" to read one of your books and those who did not.

Guess what, Bob - the world does not revolve around you no matter how "expert" you are on a particular view of Mentalism, magic and the use of the English language.

but, since you brought it up, I would direct you to the number of times I have asked for a clarification of an effect or idea related to Mentalism that you have refused to answer. (chosen not to?)

You have already defined that I am not a Mentalist because I choose not to perform "for entertainment." Does that mean I am not deserving of an answer?

Does this mean that anyone else interested in such an answer is not a Mentalist?

This is the only forum in which people can discuss whether or not some effect or concept is Mentalism.

Your opinions are most valuable -- when you choose to answer. Bu they are still just opinions.

and I (or anyone) does not need your judgmental interpretation of statements to preface an opinion.

It seems you dislike anyone who dares question your opinions or offer an alternative. I am older than you -- at least show some respect.

My disappointment continues to grow.

Don't "bother" to answer. Anyone here can read your posts and assess their accuracy and judge your intent.

Merry Christmas. I've had enough "bah-humbug!"
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 5, 2014 06:38AM)
Bob isn't some kind of machine where you pop a coin into his slot and wait for a response y'know...

just cos he doesn't acknowledge every single post or question, doesn't mean you should take it personally...

as the older man, be a grown up about it...bob is entitled to his opinions, same as anyone else...

if you don't agree, fine...but at least don't spit the dummy over it...

sounds like you need to be recognised, funsway - for whatever reasons, maybe that recognition is rooted from elsewhere...
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 07:34AM)
Yup, Iain -- it is rooted in a search for truth and honesty and concern of the apparent de-evolution of our culture.

I question, therefore I am not a Mentalist -- hummmm.

I confess to an opinion that those involved in magic can be leaders or prime-movers in something. Or is it hope?

Foolish me in believing that those who can tickle a person's imagination can also plant a seed of responsibility and candor.

by the way, I did download your File and will make a contribution to person in need. Way to go!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 5, 2014 07:38AM)
The devolution of how society acts is a far bigger and broader issue than can be addressed here...

We do not have a responsibility to do anymore than entertain, we can...but we don't have to, and its not anyone else's business to decide what an individual should do with their mentalism...

"lets drop the big one, see what happens..."
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 07:49AM)
In the Christmas Spirit I offer e free copy of "Furst Time" to any who requests it from gusarimagic@comcast.net

This is collection of Mentalism type effects and related stories based on my acquaintance with Arnold Furst

Most effects would be considered as Mental Magic by most members on this forum I think, but may inspire something more pure.

Back in the 50-60's Mentalism and Conjury effects could be freely mixed without a need for classification. Hypnotism too.

But, in orchestrating routines for performers like McGill, Arnold suggested having two separate parts of the show -- one focusing on Mental effects and the other on Physical impossibilities.

What I will try and do with my mentalism is open people's eyes as to abilities they already have, and to promote the courage to use them them to help others.

I think I read that you do not celebrate Christmas, Iain, but get a copy and snuggle up with a hot toddy
Message: Posted by: Robb (Dec 5, 2014 08:13AM)
Funsway, you do have a point and I understand what you are saying. At the same time, Bob was right with his initial statement. Even without knowing the effects, if someone has to ask if they are "pure mentalism", then you must assume they are not. Not because of the effects, but because to perform "pure mentalism", you would have to know what that is! So the question is in a way self-answering. It's like someone playing a jazz song vs. a folk song and asking whether or not it's jazz. Well, no, because if you don't know what jazz is you can't play it!

See what I mean? I'll agree Bob got a little cantankerous there will his responses, but whatever. I think we can walk a line between being condescending or patronizing. If that's how Bob would respond to this guy "in the real world", then it's just who Bob is and he has earned the right to be who he is and many people love him for it.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Dec 5, 2014 08:23AM)
[quote]Funsway

What I will try and do with my mentalism is open people's eyes as to abilities they already have, and to promote the courage to use them them to help others [/quote]

Funsway,

I wonder if you would mind clarifying the above point a little. Which abilities that people already possess are you opening their eyes to through your mentalism, and how can they use them to help others?

Regards,
Martin
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 5, 2014 09:17AM)
Uh oh...
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 5, 2014 09:28AM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2014, Robb wrote:
Funsway, you do have a point and I understand what you are saying. At the same time, Bob was right with his initial statement. Even without knowing the effects, if someone has to ask if they are "pure mentalism", then you must assume they are not. Not because of the effects, but because to perform "pure mentalism", you would have to know what that is! So the question is in a way self-answering. It's like someone playing a jazz song vs. a folk song and asking whether or not it's jazz. Well, no, because if you don't know what jazz is you can't play it! [/quote]
Really. So if you (Robb) perform a piece of pure mentalism with playing cards, then it's pure mentalism. But if someone else performed the same effect and presentation (it can easily happen) its only pure mentalism if he knows it. If he's a beginner who's developed a great style, along with appropriate technique and presentation (yes I do happen to know a few beginners like that), if they haven't the experience to know what it is, then it can't be that. Your argument is flawed, not least because if you asked 10 mentalists what pure mentalism is you may easily get 10 different responses.

I doubt very much if the original poster is any further along his journey, having read all these sound bites about how what he's doing can't be pure mentalism. If nothing else, I hope he's learned to ignore the comment that mentalists don't do card tricks.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 12:14PM)
Martin, Iain is probably right. This is not the forum for expanding on that these thoughts -- an least not today.

Happy to chat with you on at gusarimagic@comcast.net -- and perhaps start another thread. I'll let you decide if it is worth the effort.

When I queried as to whether or not pendulum work should be classified as Mentalism I got no responses. Check out my earlier posting on Smoke Pendulum.

I am content with Bob's decision that I am not a Mentalist because I don't do things for entertainment. I just want to know how to respond when observers call me a mentalist.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 5, 2014 01:01PM)
92.16 wells Fargo

146.69 Amazon

41.86



"Mentalist" is a term of art within our business. The public's use of the word is based solely on what they hear in the media.

It's like the word "theory." It has an entirely different meaning in science than it does in common speech.

Roylan- I think if the OP followed the thread I suggested to him at the beginning of this one, he certainly would have a clearer understanding of what mentalism is.

But since some here seem not to have read what I wrote in that other thread- here it is again: (It's adapted from my book, Fundamentals, which goes into much greater dept on the issue.)

[quote]...As a performing art, modern mentalism evolved during the period spanning the latter half of the nineteenth century through the early years of the twentieth. It was a theatrical response to the public’s fascination with Spiritualism, Theosophy, hypnotism and early psychical research.

The word “mentalism” originally referred to a monist philosophy that held reality itself to be a mental phenomenon. For our purposes, though, it shall be defined as a performing art in which the mentalist entertainingly demonstrates mystifying “powers of the mind.”

Unlike most magical effects, the illusion of mentalism is not primarily visual. (The exceptions, of course, are “mind over matter” effects such as bending or moving small objects by apparent psychokinesis, etc.) While visual aids are often employed - i.e. the performer exhibits a book from which a word is selected, or a spectator draws a picture which the mentalist attempts to duplicate – the actual illusion takes place in the viewer’s mind.

Imagine, for example, that you are vacationing abroad and see a mentalist on television. Imagine that he is speaking a language completely unfamiliar to you. It is likely that you will have no idea what he is doing - he could be a game show host for all you know.

If you were watching a magician, however, you would quickly recognize that he was performing magic and would probably understand what he was doing regardless of the language barrier.
But in mentalism, the illusion itself cannot be created without effective verbal communication and misdirection.

Mentalism, to be effective, must appear to be an actual demonstration of some unusual ability. Its plausibility is inversely proportional to the number of abilities claimed. In other words, the more unusual abilities you claim and demonstrate, the less believable you will be. Before you can begin to select effects and develop a presentation you must first create a plausible subscript – a detailed description of your stage persona’s powers, how he got them, how they seem to work, and what his limitations are.[/quote]

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=572045&forum=15
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Dec 5, 2014 01:34PM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2014, funsway wrote:
Martin, Iain is probably right. This is not the forum for expanding on that these thoughts -- an least not today.

Happy to chat with you on at gusarimagic@comcast.net -- and perhaps start another thread. I'll let you decide if it is worth the effort.

When I queried as to whether or not pendulum work should be classified as Mentalism I got no responses. Check out my earlier posting on Smoke Pendulum.

I am content with Bob's decision that I am not a Mentalist because I don't do things for entertainment. I just want to know how to respond when observers call me a mentalist. [/quote]

Funsway,

You are, of course, completely at liberty not to answer my question. But it does rather force me to draw the conclusion that your earlier post castigating Bob for not answering your questions was not written from a -shall we say- particularly principled standpoint?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 03:12PM)
Wrong conclusion Martin. I said that I would be happy to explain and discuss -- when the time is right. Nobody "forced" you to do anything.

This thread was stated by a person seeking answers to questions about what HE was doing -- not me. He may still be looking for helpful answers.

Neither did I "castigate" Bob by pointing out that he was selective in what questions about Mentalism he chose to answer. I asked him and others because I respected their opinion.

Perhaps he will answer when the time is right.

I thought you were asking a legitimate question that would require some thought and organization -- to which I will respond. Where is another matter.

Now I wonder why you asked for clarification. Do you wish to learn or to argue? What is your "particular principled standpoint?" Do you wish the information or to see your name one a post?

I have previously written material I can send you. It cannot be sent from this forum. That is why I requested that you contact me at an address where this is possible.

If you are not willing to review what I have already posted on the issue, what is the point?

I notice you have not requested by Christmas gift either. That will provide some clues as to my thinking and formational background.

I will begin gathering material together in case you really are serious about this information. Please read what I have already offered.

I will value any experiential information you can provide on the issue when I clarify the ideas further.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Dec 5, 2014 03:27PM)
Rolyan, that's a pretty qualified point but a valid one. I *suppose* someone could quite by accident perform mentalism without realizing it just like they could accidentally perform jazz without realizing it... But since both styles are fairly (but not absolutely) delineated, it seems improbable to me. Obviously you could paint a scenario where anyone could be performing in any style without explicitly knowing it. If we want to talk about outlier cases then sure, anything is possible, I'll agree with you there. But *generally speaking* you would have to know what is and is not mentalism (broadly defined) in order to perform it. Sorry if I was speaking in absolutes, it was a generalization. There are always exceptions.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Dec 5, 2014 05:02PM)
Funsway,

You made your statement on this forum; I asked you a question about your statement on this forum; you've chosen not to answer on this forum. I'm not really interested in private emailing or receiving items. Just interested in discussing mentalism on a mentalism forum. If you only wish to discuss mentalism on your own terms and only through private emails, I'll leave you to it.
Message: Posted by: Rolyan (Dec 5, 2014 05:31PM)
Bob - I'm hoping that the original poster followed your link. I also hope that he will follow what I've done which is to own and read every single book you've ever published! But sometimes beginners need a basic, simple response and that's what's been missing here. A lot of 'clever' answers but not much practical help.

However, I suppose we've all learned a little, which is no bad thing.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Dec 5, 2014 06:00PM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:
Funsway,

You made your statement on this forum; I asked you a question about your statement on this forum; you've chosen not to answer on this forum. I'm not really interested in private emailing or receiving items. Just interested in discussing mentalism on a mentalism forum. If you only wish to discuss mentalism on your own terms and only through private emails, I'll leave you to it. [/quote]

Fine -- I will open a new thread on this forum to explore these issues. Just as I said I would. I have chosen not to respond on "this thread."

I thought that a couple of examples and even stories might help with your understanding. There is nothing "private" - you could share anything you thought important on any forum.

The key is "discuss mentalism." I don't see much discussion going on in this thread at all.

I look forward to the opportunity.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 5, 2014 07:42PM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2014, Robb wrote:
Funsway, you do have a point and I understand what you are saying. At the same time, Bob was right with his initial statement. Even without knowing the effects, if someone has to ask if they are "pure mentalism", then you must assume they are not. Not because of the effects, but because to perform "pure mentalism", you would have to know what that is! So the question is in a way self-answering. It's like someone playing a jazz song vs. a folk song and asking whether or not it's jazz. Well, no, because if you don't know what jazz is you can't play it!

See what I mean? I'll agree Bob got a little cantankerous there will his responses, but whatever. I think we can walk a line between being condescending or patronizing. If that's how Bob would respond to this guy "in the real world", then it's just who Bob is and he has earned the right to be who he is and many people love him for it. [/quote]

In the real world I'd probably respond in a lot more depth.

The problem is that this topic has been discussed to death here over the last several years. In fact, if you go back to the week I was the "Chef's Special" here I answered questions like this for a whole week. It's all still there at:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?forum=304&370

But I do admit that when the same questions come up repeatedly I can get a little cantankerous.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Dec 7, 2014 09:53AM)
Anyone would, Bob, anyone would...
Message: Posted by: ummer21 (Dec 12, 2014 10:40AM)
First of all, I would like to apologize for not being more clear in what card tricks I perfomed. Also, I would like to thank everyone on this thread who has been so thoughful to put not only their expertise, but their energy into typing so honestly. From reading this thread I conclude I am in no way a mentalist just beacuse I have performed a few tricks that contained a prediction of a card or guessed someones number etc etc. I brought this topic up beacause when I perform people always ask what kind of magician I am. I don't want to admit I am a mentalist if I am not, and possibly insult those lifetime professionals.


I enjoy doing tricks mostly for students in my school, teachers, friends, family and ocassionaly a party, fundraiser or xmas party. For instance, today I performed a trick for my students where I pour water into a cup and switch them around on the table. After they find the water I switch the cup and pour it into another one. On the last switch they guess the cup and the water us gone from all three cups. That is not mental magic. I am not sure what that is perhaps close up magic.

Now for my definition of mental magic or mentalism I believe that a trick involving a book test or predicting a future chosen card would be considered a mental effect because it involves using ones mind or thoughts to get the effect. Form the argument on the board it seems there are various disagreements about what a mental effect is by nature.

Thanks for your input, but I will be performing my tricks to get a laugh out of my audience and that is about it. I enjoy it and whatever its called in professional terms really doesn't impact me because I am not trying to sell it. Not in the near future at least.
Message: Posted by: ummer21 (Dec 12, 2014 10:43AM)
I think Bob summed it up in his thread. Maybe I am more of a "trickster" than a mentalist. So can mental magic be trickery? I think that was a better to put it in my original post?

Thanks once again Bob. I am honored to have had you respond.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Dec 12, 2014 01:27PM)
You're welcome ummer21.

Good luck on your journey.

Bob