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Topic: Natural Law
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 15, 2015 10:58AM)
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters.
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Apr 15, 2015 11:31AM)
The closest thing I can think of to "true natural law" would be Charles Darwin's "Survival of the fittest." Morality is a human construct. Humans invented it to protect ourselves from threats. Do animals feel guilt or regret if they fight over a mate or over food or territory and one of them is killed in the fight? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that people we judge to be "Immoral" are often people who follow their own rules. Not "evil people," not people out to harm others randomly, just people out for themselves. Our morality is meant to protect us from these people.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 15, 2015 11:33AM)
I'll bite, but I'll wait until a few others have posted.

The problem with "do unto others" is that it is not compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. What's the penalty if you "do unto yourself"?
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Apr 15, 2015 12:29PM)
The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 15, 2015 12:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters. [/quote]

2. Because we don't all interpret information identically. We can attend the same lecture and come back with different understandings of it.
4. Morality isn't necessarily useful.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 15, 2015 01:02PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I'll bite, but I'll wait until a few others have posted.

The problem with "do unto others" is that it is not compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. What's the penalty if you "do unto yourself"? [/quote]

Morality isn't (imo) necessarily utilitarian; it just happens to have some nice utilitarian side effects. No law is compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. There doesn't have to be a penalty involved for the wrong thing to be the wrong thing.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 15, 2015 06:27PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth. [/quote]

Really?? Why?? I don't believe in a life after I've already lived my life, yet I think the Golden rule is an excellent way to live. In fact, if those who practice the Golden rule are doing it for the sole purpose of being rewarded in an afterlife, then perhaps they are not as moral as those who practice the rule and do not expect or require any reward. Besides, some religions posit that you can basically be a terrible person your whole life, but as long as you repent and accept a certain person as your savior in your last moments, then you will be granted immunity and accepted into a glorious afterlife. Does that sound fair and reasonable?

Ron
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2015 06:34PM)
Ron,
Certainly sounds fair and reasonable to me.

At what age would you have the cut off date? :)


tom
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 15, 2015 06:44PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,
Certainly sounds fair and reasonable to me.

At what age would you have the cut off date? :)


tom [/quote]

Hi Tom,

Can rapists, thieves, and even murderers be admitted to Heaven if in the last moments (literally) of their life they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?

Ron
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2015 06:51PM)
Ron

Yes, I believe they can.

HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 15, 2015 06:56PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron

Yes, I believe they can.
[/quote]

Ok, you believe they "can"... but SHOULD lifelong rapists and murderers, in your opinion, be rewarded with Heaven for merely pronouncing their faith in their final moments? If YOU ran the Universe, would YOU employ those rules?


[quote]

HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom [/quote]

WHAT was their choice???

Ron
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 15, 2015 07:00PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
The golden rule, "Do unto others..." really only works with people who believe they will be judged in an afterlife on the quality they chose to live here in Earth. [/quote]

What do you mean by "works" here?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 15, 2015 07:11PM)
It is only natural in America that the Enforcers believe that life's a Hollywood movie that they can shoot
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2015 08:57PM)
Ron, the choice is to believe or not believe. That’s all it takes, it’s all about having faith.

Faith is your insurance, (it's all explained in the policy) I have it, you don’t, end of story. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Cliffg37 (Apr 15, 2015 09:09PM)
Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 15, 2015 09:18PM)
The choice is to bugger or not to bugger. It’s all about not knowing your ass from your elbow.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 15, 2015 09:20PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron, the choice is to believe or not believe. That’s all it takes, it’s all about having faith.

Faith is your insurance, (it's all explained in the policy) I have it, you don’t, end of story. :)

Tom [/quote]
Tom,

Thanks, but I think you are confused about the question. Here it is again...

"And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"

Please answer that question without going off on a tangent.

Ron

[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks. [/quote]
Thanks Cliff! But I really don't think that's a rare quality of atheists. And I am certainly not "special" - it's just common sense that if I don't want to be harmed, or have my belongings stolen, or be mistreated, then I shouldn't be doing those things to others. To do those things to others would not only cause pain and misery in the lives of others, but would invite retribution. And that's no way to live. Better to be happy and make others happy in this one shot at existence, in my view. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 15, 2015 09:38PM)
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.



Tom
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 15, 2015 10:02PM)
I blame Saint Peter.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 15, 2015 10:37PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron

Yes, I believe they can.[/quote]
Ok, you believe they "can"... but SHOULD lifelong rapists and murderers, in your opinion, be rewarded with Heaven for merely pronouncing their faith in their final moments? If YOU ran the Universe, would YOU employ those rules?

[quote]HE wouldn’t be doing anything to them, that was their own choice. Otherwise I’m not sure what would happen.

That's my belief.

Tom[/quote]
WHAT was their choice???

Ron[/quote]
Channeling Jackie Gleason.

(Danny: I think that the o/u just shortened.)
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 15, 2015 10:38PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom [/quote]
I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
Channeling Jackie Gleason.
[/quote]
LOL!! :-)

Ron


Ron
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 15, 2015 10:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom [/quote]

I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.


Ron [/quote]

If I might ask.

Are you asking that if someone follows the 10 commandments but just does not believe in God what will happen to their immortal soul? Is that the question?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 15, 2015 11:22PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, Cliffg37 wrote:
Ron, my hat is off to you sir. I rarely find people willing to be good and do good just for the sake of "The right thing to do." You have my thanks. [/quote]

You've definitely been hanging out with the wrong atheists and agnostics. Probably the wrong Christians, too, if your moral behavior done just so you can get into heaven.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 16, 2015 12:05AM)
Money was the first thing god created and then he created you because he needed some sucker to believe in it.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 16, 2015 12:30AM)
While you barter for your food and Internet service with beads?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 16, 2015 12:52AM)
I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and beads of sweat.

And for this, you offer me dirty paper?
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 16, 2015 01:43AM)
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead!
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Apr 16, 2015 02:10AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead! [/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/JgS1hdZ.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 16, 2015 03:05AM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters. [/quote]


I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

"Do unto others..." may or may not have come from a supernatural source, but is lacking in society today is a foresight or knowledge as to what it actually means to do unto others as you would have done to yourself. It is lacking because it implies that there is no further effect than JUST on those party to the "doing".

When I offer someone to come with me on a casino binge, I'm doing unto him/her as I would do unto myself. We have a good time, friendly evening of entertainment, but what effect on their family?

Kam
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 16, 2015 05:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom [/quote]

I am not "wanting" anything other than for you to explain yourself.

So it seems like you are saying that, after they die, good people end up being tortured for eternity merely for not having been convinced that any gods exist. Is that correct? Furthermore, you are absolving God by essentially "blaming the victim" - claiming that the victim "chose" to go to Hell. That's patently absurd! If someone neither believes in Heaven nor Hell, then how can they "choose" to go to either place???? That makes NO sense whatsoever! Also, didn't God himself create and design everything? Didn't he knowingly design a system of reward and punishment - of Heaven and Hell? Isn't that how he WANTS it? To say that God gets no blame for the place he created and which operates according to his will is equally absurd.

Also, you have previously indicated that lifelong rapists and murderers get rewarded with eternal bliss for merely aligning themselves with the right God at their time of death. Is that correct?

Now stop and think about that. Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God? Can you think of better ways to handle good people who merely didn't believe than by torturing them for eternity? What does eternal torture accomplish? Right about now isn't your head spinning with all kinds of cognitive dissonance? Don't you agree that all my points are valid, but yet you are searching for ways to rationalize the "biblical" view? And I'm sure you will. Maybe you will resort to a bible verse, or perhaps you will just shrug your shoulders and say, "God works in mysterious ways and we just have to have faith in him". But you, Tom, are a decent person and you know in your heart of hearts that YOU wouldn't actually torture good people for eternity for mere disbelief. And if you wouldn't do it, then maybe an all-loving god wouldn't do it either. And perhaps there are no gods - Greek, Roman, or otherwise. Maybe the universe just IS. That seems to be how it operates. We see random good and random bad, with no real rhyme or reason. Something to think about anyway.


Ron [/quote]

If I might ask.

Are you asking that if someone follows the 10 commandments but just does not believe in God what will happen to their immortal soul? Is that the question? [/quote]

My question to Tom was:

"And what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"


Ron
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 16, 2015 06:22AM)
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 06:58AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:
[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]
So of what use is the religion, with all the trappings?

[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:

I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

"Do unto others..." may or may not have come from a supernatural source, but is lacking in society today is a foresight or knowledge as to what it actually means to do unto others as you would have done to yourself. It is lacking because it implies that there is no further effect than JUST on those party to the "doing".[/quote]

What does it actually mean? What further effect?
If you seek the benevolent for yourself, and do it unto others, then a virtuos circle is produced and all boats rise.
If you seek the opposite then you have a mental defect.
If you do the opposite of what you want for yourself, assuming you want the good, then you are evil, and justice SHOULD take care of you.

[quote]When I offer someone to come with me on a casino binge, I'm doing unto him/her as I would do unto myself. We have a good time, friendly evening of entertainment, but what effect on their family?

Kam [/quote]
First of all, why are you going on a casino "binge"? Where is your legendary self-control?

Second of all, if you are having a good time and an evening of entertainment, and you and your friend can afford it, then what is the effect (assuming harm in this context)?

Admit it Kam, you are making a case for the need for divine guidance, as you've admitted you need, lest you run amok.

Landmarks original point is, as I see it, is that "Do unto others" is a starting point in defining a proper morality, and that no supernatural being is neccessary to discover it.
It can be learned, as all things can, through experience, and it can be taught by those "betters" among us who seek the good for all by wanting it for themselves.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 16, 2015 07:38AM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.



Tom [/quote]

I personally have problems with; "Ah, Mahati Ghandi. You did wonderful work, you led your people to freedom through non-violence and peaceful means. But you chose NOT to believe in ME or in the divinity of my Son and so therefore you are denied everlasting life."
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 07:40AM)
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 08:13AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom [/quote]

So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 16, 2015 08:13AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:
[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]
:applause: +10 ^^^^^

[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]
So of what use is the religion, with all the trappings? [/quote]
Where the hell are the "goal posts" now? I can't even see them.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 08:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom [/quote]

So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious. [/quote]

Of course you should treat them well, and we should assume that everybody wants to be treated well.

Tom
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 08:31AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom [/quote]

So you should base your actions on conjecture instead of your own absolute knowledge?

Wouldn't it be better to treat them well, assuming of course that you want to be treated well. That way you avoid the guesswork and probable errors, no?

What if your visualization leads you to believe they do not want to be treated well? What if you run into a masochist?

Just curious. [/quote]

Of course you should treat them well, and we should assume that everybody wants to be treated well.

Tom [/quote]

So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 08:42AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:


So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no? [/quote]

Because your idea of well may not be well enough.
Go the extra mile to be safe.

Tom
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 08:54AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:


So why the need to visualize?

You may be wrong, no? [/quote]

Because your idea of well may not be well enough.
Go the extra mile to be safe.

Tom [/quote]

So treat them better than you'd want to be treated according to your own standards?
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 16, 2015 09:19AM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, landmark wrote:
I probably don't have the background to even participate in this discussion, but if anyone feels up to educating me, a few questions.

1. Natural Law seems to have been interpreted in several ways over the centuries. Sometimes a counter-example is useful for explanations. What are some of the ways of looking at morality in a non-Natural way?

2. If Nature tells us what "good" is, why do we not all have the same morality (or do we?)

3. Who gets to tell us what Nature is saying about the "good."?

4. Why is this way of looking at morality more useful than other ways? What's the secret sauce?

If you want some starting point for discussion, I'll throw out my own naive version of the foundation of morality. Then if you like you can tell me why it is or is not part of Natural Law, and so on.

So my premise is this: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you; do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself.
My contention is that that premise is available without recourse to a supernatural being or some correlative in the non-human part of Nature.
I don't think it's an innate premise of the brain like language, otherwise all humans would believe it and act on it.
On the other hand, I think it is an axiom and not a theorem.
I believe we are taught it by, and learn it from, our betters. [/quote]
2. Because we don't all interpret information identically. We can attend the same lecture and come back with different understandings of it.
4. Morality isn't necessarily useful. [/quote]
Okay, we're way off base in this thread now, but I'll try to get back to the question of the OP (whoever that was).
2. Perhaps, but I would posit it's because we don't in fact have the same axioms. Some may have the Golden Rule and others may have, for example, Some Are More Equal Than Others. If we look to Nature, I contend that it may well be that we will find only the reflection of our already embedded axioms.

4. I'm not asking about he usefulness of morality, I'm asking about the usefulness of having a point of view that posits Natural Law as a starting point, as opposed to any other theory of morality.

[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
I'll bite, but I'll wait until a few others have posted.

The problem with "do unto others" is that it is not compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. What's the penalty if you "do unto yourself"? [/quote]
Morality isn't (imo) necessarily utilitarian; it just happens to have some nice utilitarian side effects. No law is compelling to someone who chooses to ignore it. There doesn't have to be a penalty involved for the wrong thing to be the wrong thing. [/quote]
Definitely agree with Lobo on that. Morality is one thing; a justice system is another. The morality system informs the justice system, and one can often deduce the morality system from the justice system, but they are not one and the same.

[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead! [/quote]
You warned me. Well, I guess I'll try for another day and see how it goes.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 16, 2015 09:31AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:

I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

[/quote]

The stem of the OP was about natural law. In ethics, this is the belief that there are "free-standing" principles of morality that are discoverable by human reason. In most interpretations, the source of this natural law is Divine.

Another approach is to suggest that there are natural law principles of morality that are part of the structure of rationality itself--if you properly understand and ask the question "what should I do", then your reason alone will lead you (in principle) to the correct response.

There is also a family of theories of legal justice that appeal to natural law, but that's another topic altogether.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 16, 2015 09:55AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom [/quote]

AKA "The Platinum Rule."
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 16, 2015 10:22AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:

I don't think that the question lies in the "source" of morality.

[/quote]

The stem of the OP was about natural law. In ethics, this is the belief that there are "free-standing" principles of morality that are discoverable by human reason. In most interpretations, the source of this natural law is Divine.

Another approach is to suggest that there are natural law principles of morality that are part of the structure of rationality itself--if you properly understand and ask the question "what should I do", then your reason alone will lead you (in principle) to the correct response.

There is also a family of theories of legal justice that appeal to natural law, but that's another topic altogether. [/quote]

Maybe there is an an assumption that human reason today can come up with the "golden rules" etc.

One cannot assume that today's human reason did not evolve from the provision of morality given from ancient religions.

For example. I have no doubt that the morality given in the Baha'i Writings is progressive even by today's human standards, in fact in mid 19th century Iran the teachings were radical. Fast forward 3000 years and I am sure that what is taught in the Baha'i Writings will be so well established that it would be considered "natural law" capable of being deduced by human reason alone.

The same applies to the Golden Rule etc. These moral standards were given to humanity, not deduced from nothing, in my humble opinion.


Kam
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 11:04AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Maybe there is an an assumption that human reason today can come up with the "golden rules" etc.

One cannot assume that today's human reason did not evolve from the provision of morality given from ancient religions.[/quote]

Nor can you assume that it does. It can be argued that it [b]survived[/b] despite the efforts to destroy it with dogma because it is superior.

[quote]For example. I have no doubt that the morality given in the Baha'i Writings is progressive even by today's human standards, in fact in mid 19th century Iran the teachings were radical. Fast forward 3000 years and I am sure that what is taught in the Baha'i Writings will be so well established that it would be considered "natural law" capable of being deduced by human reason alone.[/quote]

It could also be a minor footnote in history. Looked at by future people in astonishment when they think about the fact that ancient man actually considered it valid.
Just keeping it real and balanced.

[quote]The same applies to the Golden Rule etc. These moral standards were given to humanity, not deduced from nothing, in my humble opinion.
Kam [/quote]

Agreed, they weren't deduced from nothing, because nothing is deduced from nothing. Things are learned from experience.
But, out of curiosity, given to humanity by whom?
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 16, 2015 11:13AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:

But, out of curiosity, given to humanity by whom? [/quote]

Well this is the oldest known recording of the Golden Rule:

[b]One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. [/b]

—Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8


That was given by God.

Kam
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 11:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:

But, out of curiosity, given to humanity by whom? [/quote]

Well this is the oldest known recording of the Golden Rule:

[b]One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. [/b]

—Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8


That was given by God.

Kam [/quote]

So, god picked up a pen and paper and actually wrote something down. Impressive.

Silly me. Here I thought a human wrote it down and said it was from god, and if he said it, it must be true.
Because he said it.
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 16, 2015 11:49AM)
Ok suit yourself

It was given by Krishna

Kam
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 16, 2015 12:00PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Ok suit yourself

It was given by Krishna

Kam [/quote]

So.......not god?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 02:40PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Back on topic, I see the Golden Rule as not being all about self, it doesn’t mean that you should treat someone else exactly as you’d
want them to treat you … it means that you should try to visualize how they want to be treated, and do that.

Tom [/quote]

AKA "The Platinum Rule." [/quote]

Yes, works better than the ‘me’ rule. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 16, 2015 02:44PM)
Http://www.amazon.com/The-Platinum-Rule-Others-Theyd/dp/B0000547IO/ref=tmm_aud_title_0
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 16, 2015 04:23PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, ed rhodes wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

Are you wanting me to say God sends people to hell?

God does nothing to them. If they do end up someplace other than with him, it was their choice. Why blame God?

Or that's my thinking. I could be wrong.

Tom [/quote]
I personally have problems with; "Ah, Mahati Ghandi. You did wonderful work, you led your people to freedom through non-violence and peaceful means. But you chose NOT to believe in ME or in the divinity of my Son and so therefore you are denied everlasting life." [/quote]
No one has everlasting life. We all have an immortal soul. That my friend is a huge difference.

[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Ok suit yourself

It was given by Krishna

Kam [/quote]
So.......not god? [/quote]
Not sure what god you are talking about. As the God I know, as the One true God, is the One with a Capital "G" in the spelling. So not sure which one you mean. Could you be more specific and maybe someone could answer your question of, So.......not god? So........which not god are you referring too? :)
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 05:00PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Http://www.amazon.com/The-Platinum-Rule-Others-Theyd/dp/B0000547IO/ref=tmm_aud_title_0 [/quote]


I’ve never read the book but I did listen to the speaker Tony Alessandra after your first post. He is good. Thanks for the link.

Tom
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 16, 2015 06:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, acesover wrote:

No one has everlasting life. We all have an immortal soul. That my friend is a huge difference. [/quote]

Not sure how you missed one of most famous and widely quoted passages in the New Testament:

[quote]John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, [b]but have everlasting life.[/b][/quote]

[emphasis added]
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 16, 2015 07:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, acesover wrote:

No one has everlasting life. We all have an immortal soul. That my friend is a huge difference. [/quote]

Not sure how you missed one of most famous and widely quoted passages in the New Testament:

[quote]John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, [b]but have everlasting life.[/b][/quote]

Not much of a Bible scholar are you Bob? We are all sinners if you read the Bible. For all sinners the consequences is death. Now let me explain. That is why God gave His only Son for our sins to be forgiven. I don't want to get involved in a Bible debate here but you are way off base. Obviously you do not understand the meaning of life and death in this context of the Bible. Stick with the legal stuff and Jim Crow. :)

Death in this context is the absence of being with God for eternity. Ever lasting Life is being in the presence of God for eternity. Again please do not take the Bible so literally. By this time you should know better. It is a little deeper than that. You are in deep water here when discussing the Bible and its meanings. Next you will tell me that Adam and Eve were punished because they ate an apple.

So what I am saying in this instance Bob is that you don't know what you are talking about. That is as plain as I can make it. Don't let it damage your ego. You are still a smart guy.

[/quote]
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 16, 2015 08:33PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:
[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]
Thanks Bob.

But then there's this...
[quote]
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know)
Contrary to claims otherwise, Pope Francis did not say that atheists can go to heaven without coming to faith, and he most certainly did not say that man can save himself by his own efforts.

Indeed, he speaks of the need for God’s mercy.[/quote]
and this...
[quote]
http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

What Pope Francis Really said About Atheiosts
Pope Francis did not say that an atheist who does naturally good things can be saved if he dies an atheist. Yet that is the impression given by Catholic Online’s half truth headline…

The Pope… simply reminded the faithful that there can be, and is, goodness, or natural virtue, outside the Church. And that Christ’s death on the Cross redeemed all men. He paid the price so that every man could come to God and be saved.[/quote]
Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks [I]should[/I] happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, acesover wrote:
Next you will tell me that Adam and Eve were punished because they ate an apple.
[quote]
But whatever they were punished for, we're still paying the price for their "sin", no?

Ron
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 16, 2015 08:50PM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]

Thanks Bob.

But then there's this...

[quote]
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know)
Contrary to claims otherwise, Pope Francis did not say that atheists can go to heaven without coming to faith, and he most certainly did not say that man can save himself by his own efforts.

Indeed, he speaks of the need for God’s mercy.[/quote]


and this...

[quote]
http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

What Pope Francis Really said About Atheiosts
Pope Francis did not say that an atheist who does naturally good things can be saved if he dies an atheist. Yet that is the impression given by Catholic Online’s half truth headline…

The Pope… simply reminded the faithful that there can be, and is, goodness, or natural virtue, outside the Church. And that Christ’s death on the Cross redeemed all men. He paid the price so that every man could come to God and be saved.[/quote]

Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks [I]should[/I] happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron [/quote]

I'm just a Deist, Ron. I just do the best I can in this life and hope for the best in the next, if there is one.

But I like Pope Francis and I was going by what he actually said, rather than the multiple interpretations less progressive Catholics have given as alternative meanings.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 16, 2015 09:26PM)
Ron,

At first it was "what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"

I answered you three times and said, God left that decision up to you. You either believe or you don’t believe. If you believe then you have a shot at heaven,
if you don’t then you end up someplace else.

I can’t say for sure where that someplace else is. Maybe Alaska or out in the hot desert somewhere, I don’t know. None of us know for sure yet.

Now you changing the question to what “Should” happen to them?


I believe the rules are already set and I can't change them. It's out of my hands.

Where you go,that’s not up to me to decide. That’s a decision we each have to make on our own. I can’t make it for you or you can’t make it for me. It’s that simple.

It’s like this Ron. If you want to go to New York you buy a ticket to New York. You don’t go down to the airport and buy a ticket to Africa and then complain
they didn’t send you to New York. You think the ticket sellers are the blame? It was your choice. You think the airline is at fault? All the signs said you going
the wrong way Ron, but you kept on going anyway. Your ticket clearly reads Africa bound, and now here you are wandering around in the jungle saying why am I here. :)

I don't know what happens to us after we die. Just like I don't know when I will have an accident or die. That is why I have insurance. I just don't know.

Tom

PS. Ok to play along, here is your straight answer:

Ron, If I ran the Universe I would save you a seat in heaven.

But I’m not sure how good of a seat that would be if you flat out refused to believe me or mocked me right up to the end.
I would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did. Honestly I probably wouldn't make a good God.

Tom
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 16, 2015 10:36PM)
R.S.

St. Thomas Aquinas nailed it some 700 years ago.

For those with faith, no evidence is necessary; for those without it, no evidence will suffice

I an many have faith. You and many don't. That is where Free Will comes into play. That is believers and nonbelievers. As I have said in the past. "Believe what you will, and I will also". That way everyone is happy.

I don't have to convince myself as I already believe, and I am surely not interested in convincing you to believe what I believe, as I have no interest in playing a missionary.

We should move on. This has been discussed many times and usually ends up getting deleted.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 16, 2015 11:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God?[/quote]
Ron: you've asked these questions many times of Christians.

Of what use is our opinion of whether that system is just or not?

How could we possibly know how we would run the universe if we were in charge?

And of what use is our opinion on how we'd run the universe?
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 17, 2015 12:03AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, kambiz wrote:
Ok suit yourself

It was given by Krishna

Kam [/quote]

So.......not god? [/quote]

God speaks through people from age to age.

He spoke "through" Krishna 3000 years ago.

Think of it like a radio. Is it the radio speaking or is it the person "sending" the message?

Kam
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 17, 2015 12:21AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron [/quote]

No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron :)

Kam
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 17, 2015 12:51AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks [I]should[/I] happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron [/quote]

I'm sure Tom may provide some useful insights for you Ron, but if we were to observe nature and human conduct in collaboration with justice and equity, one could easily extrapolate the correct answer for you.

When we look at how human progress is set up, it naturally rewards those who work hard, put in the effort and time and sacrifice to reach an ends.
If I was to work hard for 20 years trying to develop a product to help disabled people to live more comfortable lives (for example), fine tune it, go through endless failures and revamps for this product, until it reaches perfection, after years of dedication and sweat, do you think I deserve some recompense for that work which has culminated in providing a product that is so praiseworthy by those who use it?

Or is it justice for me to get nothing at all and I live in poverty for all my life?


If I was to go to university to become a dentist, work hard for 6 years, go through nights burning the midnight oil learning the intricacies of human anatomy, physiology etc, would it be just to be DENIED the ability to practice my skills after I have successfully completed the degree? "Thankyou very much for doing the course, now go back home to mum and dad and ask for your pocket money again!"

This is justice at play here, right?

All religion is saying is that when you do the right things, justice demands that you be rewarded for it.

Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?

In my opinion, religion is similar to your university. It tells you what you should do. It teaches you the equivalent of the anatomy and physiology etc.
Some people prefer to become dentists without going to university, they use their logic and rational reasoning.

This may very well be fine and you may very well become a dentist this way, but your odds are shortened somewhat.

Its simple rational logic dear friend.

Kam
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 17, 2015 01:32AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron [/quote]

No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron :)

Kam [/quote]

Having recently read a potted history of the popes I now regard myself as an eminent authority on the papacy ;) - it's astonishing how few of the popes over the centuries had any regard for Christianity and were only in office for the power and wealth the earthly kingdom of the papacy conferred. The last century has been an exception in that I would judge most recent popes have believed in their church and their religion and been sincere in wanting to do good - whether or not I agree with their opinions and actions. Of them, Pope Francis is to me at least (and don't forget I read a book) an absolute standout in conforming with the message of the Bible as I read it as a youngster, and in telling the truth, and focusing on the belief, not the Church. Many of them, even the well intentioned, have seemed to just ignore core messages of their messiah when those messages contradicted with the needs of the church, the infrastructure - it was like a magic trick where the mechanics of the performance overrode the importance of the magic.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Apr 17, 2015 01:44AM)
How it works ...

“Hey, Pete! How is that new program working out?”

“Kinda slow until I shaved,” Mike. “That old flowing white beard image wasn’t designed for a keyboard. Thought you were over at solipsism tournament.”

“I dropped out early when some of the new angels couldn’t remember which false avatar they preferred. Arguing with yourself is strange enough. Debating with a false self-image is weird.”

“What was that old earth song, ‘Is you is, or is you ain’t?’ I have the same problem here. Back in the quill and scroll days I could track a person’s life history easily. Now this computer data search gets lost over a person not knowing who they were in the first place.”

“I thought identity wasn’t critical for choosing between the “Justice” or “Mercy” doors.” Let Management sort it out later.”

“Other options now-a-days – ‘ascension apps’, you might say.”

“Don’t tell you got approval for that Repechage Slide?”

“Yup, the dearly departed can opt for going back and trying again. The can avoid the decision between the Doors by spinning the Ouroboros Wheel. Could be a cow, king, genius or oak tree. So, they have to sign a waver. This means they have to know who they are and can write. Gets tougher all the time.”

“And I thought keeping cherubs out of the Morman Flower Gardens was difficult.”

“Gets worse,” Michael. “Next year we add the Free Choice Wheel. Anyone avoiding the Divine Options can play on luck instead. One spin with a thousand options. Might get ‘Bosom of the Lord’, ‘Nirvana’, “Eternal Fire,’ or ‘Never Was’.”

“Never heard of that last one. The spirit can’t be naught.”

“Earth-types like to believe that what they do down there makes a difference. It does for those choosing Judgment or Mercy. If they spin the Big Wheel most opinions have a continuity or being, might even a residual memory or two. ‘Never Was’ is the worse kind of hell. Every bit of evidence that they ever existed at all is removed from the universe. Their spirit just goes back to the moment of creation.”

“Why in heaven would any spirit risk that?”

“I think they fear being a person even more.”

“Sure glad I was made an angel from the start.”

Peter laughed. “Are you certain you were?”
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 04:59AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Ron- Must be the old Catholic in me, but Pope Francis gave a pretty good answer to your question:

[quote]
In comments likely to enhance his progressive reputation, Pope Francis has written a long, open letter to the founder of La Repubblica newspaper, Eugenio Scalfari, stating that non-believers would be forgiven by God if they followed their consciences.

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience...” [/quote]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html [/quote]

Thanks Bob.

But then there's this...

[quote]
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-atheists-dont-need-to-believe-in-god-to-be-saved-9-thi

Did Pope Francis say atheists don’t need to believe in God to be saved? (9 things to know)
Contrary to claims otherwise, Pope Francis did not say that atheists can go to heaven without coming to faith, and he most certainly did not say that man can save himself by his own efforts.

Indeed, he speaks of the need for God’s mercy.[/quote]


and this...

[quote]
http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

What Pope Francis Really said About Atheiosts
Pope Francis did not say that an atheist who does naturally good things can be saved if he dies an atheist. Yet that is the impression given by Catholic Online’s half truth headline…

The Pope… simply reminded the faithful that there can be, and is, goodness, or natural virtue, outside the Church. And that Christ’s death on the Cross redeemed all men. He paid the price so that every man could come to God and be saved.[/quote]

Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Anyway, I'd like to hear a straight answer from Tom as to what he thinks [I]should[/I] happen to good nonbelievers after they die. If he (Tom) ran the Universe, how would he (Tom) treat nonbelievers?

Ron [/quote]

I'm just a Deist, Ron. I just do the best I can in this life and hope for the best in the next, if there is one.

But I like Pope Francis and I was going by what he actually said, rather than the multiple interpretations less progressive Catholics have given as alternative meanings. [/quote]

Understood. Thanks so much, Bob! :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 05:19AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

At first it was "what do you think God does with law abiding, productive and respectful people who do not believe in any gods?"

I answered you three times and said, God left that decision up to you. You either believe or you don’t believe. If you believe then you have a shot at heaven,
if you don’t then you end up someplace else.

I can’t say for sure where that someplace else is. Maybe Alaska or out in the hot desert somewhere, I don’t know. None of us know for sure yet.

Now you changing the question to what “Should” happen to them?


I believe the rules are already set and I can't change them. It's out of my hands.

Where you go,that’s not up to me to decide. That’s a decision we each have to make on our own. I can’t make it for you or you can’t make it for me. It’s that simple.

It’s like this Ron. If you want to go to New York you buy a ticket to New York. You don’t go down to the airport and buy a ticket to Africa and then complain
they didn’t send you to New York. You think the ticket sellers are the blame? It was your choice. You think the airline is at fault? All the signs said you going
the wrong way Ron, but you kept on going anyway. Your ticket clearly reads Africa bound, and now here you are wandering around in the jungle saying why am I here. :)

I don't know what happens to us after we die. Just like I don't know when I will have an accident or die. That is why I have insurance. I just don't know.

Tom [/quote]

Yes, I asked a couple of different questions which I wanted your response to. But your answers are somewhat, uh, circuitous?

Anyway, I asked what God does with good nonbelievers who die. And you answered by basically saying God leaves that decision up to the nonbeliever. Well, here's the problem, which I have previously elaborated (and seems to be lost on you)... [I]how can nonbelievers choose between two options when they believe in neither[/I]?? That's like me asking you to choose between Leprechaun Heaven or Leprechaun Hell. I'm pretty sure that throughout your life you won't give a millisecond of thought to believing that either place actually and truly exists (even though you've heard of Leprechauns and I am warning you now). So where does choice come in?? So suppose you die and then, to your great surprise, you find there IS a Leprechaun Heaven and a Leprechaun Hell. Now what? Is it up to YOU to now pick a place? Or is it up to the Supreme Leprechaun King to put you someplace? It's the same thing with a god and atheists.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 05:29AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
PS. Ok to play along, here is your straight answer:

Ron, If I ran the Universe I would save you a seat in heaven.

But I’m not sure how good of a seat that would be if you flat out refused to believe me or mocked me right up to the end.
I would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did. Honestly I probably wouldn't make a good God.

Tom [/quote]

Thanks Tom. :-)

So, if you were God, then you would allow good nonbelievers into Heaven. But... this seems to contradict what you think the real God does. You seemed to imply above that nonbelievers end up in Hell because they "chose" to go there (which is God's design all along).

Congratulations - you've taken a very important first step by being thoughtful and being in opposition to your god. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 05:35AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Apr 15, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Do YOU personally think that that is a just system? Would YOU run the universe that way if YOU were God?[/quote]
Ron: you've asked these questions many times of Christians.

Of what use is our opinion of whether that system is just or not?

How could we possibly know how we would run the universe if we were in charge?

And of what use is our opinion on how we'd run the universe? [/quote]

What use?? Are we just thoughtless automatons being run by dictatorial law? Do this and don't question it, and do that and don't question it? And even though the bible endorses slavery, we have done away with that haven't we? So our opinions of justice and morality DO matter. And it is a worthy thought experiment to imagine how we would run the universe if we were God. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 05:38AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, R.S. wrote:


Also, Pope Francis is just one of a long line of Popes. Have every single one of all the previous Popes in history been in agreement with Pope Francis on this issue? I seriously doubt it. So now we have the problem of determining which Pope was correct. And why would there be disagreement amongst Popes anyway? Doesn't that tell you something about the arbitrary nature of religion?

Ron [/quote]

No, it tells you about the arbitrary nature of the Papacy.

Let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater Ron :)

Kam [/quote]

And does the Pope have the power to modify/alter/interpret doctrine?

There is no baby, so the bathwater is irrelevant. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 05:42AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:


Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?


Kam [/quote]

The difference between you and me is that you need God in order to be good (as you have previously admitted), but I don't.

Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 17, 2015 06:55AM)
Conform to nature and you do well. Do not conform to nature and you do badly.

Such is the power of the Gods.
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 17, 2015 07:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:


Now, you ask what if I was an atheist doing all the right things?


Kam [/quote]

The difference between you and me is that you need God in order to be good (as you have previously admitted), but I don't.

Ron [/quote]

Aren't you happy that we both do good?

I know I am :)

Kam
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 17, 2015 08:10AM)
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 17, 2015 09:56AM)
If there is an all-knowing, all-powerful God, I suspect that with our comparatively ignorant understanding of everything, speculating as to what we'd do if we were similarly situated is sort of like a mouse thinking about what it wouldl do if it were human.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 17, 2015 09:59AM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If there is an all-knowing, all-powerful God, I suspect that with our comparatively ignorant understanding of everything, speculating as to what we'd do if we were similarly situated is sort of like a mouse thinking about what it wouldl do if it were human. [/quote]

Lead the parade at Disneyland?
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 17, 2015 10:29AM)
As Mike Stivic said to Archie Bunker, "Mickey Mouse is black."
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Apr 17, 2015 12:16PM)
Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 17, 2015 12:22PM)
Nature lives in grace.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 17, 2015 01:49PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me. [/quote]
Thanks, arthur, but the unread book pile is growing like kudzu around here.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 08:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom [/quote]

It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I [I]wouldn't[/I] do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! :-)

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 17, 2015 08:26PM)
I gave this some serious thought. Quite honestly I could not get past the first day of creation.

Guess I am not smart enough to be God. Have to leave that to R.S.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 09:08PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, acesover wrote:
I gave this some serious thought. Quite honestly I could not get past the first day of creation.

Guess I am not smart enough to be God. Have to leave that to R.S. [/quote]

Thank you, Aces! You and I will have lots of fun in Rontopia some day! :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 17, 2015 09:28PM)
I wouldn't care what you wouldn't do if I were god.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 17, 2015 09:39PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, tommy wrote:
I wouldn't care what you wouldn't do if I were god. [/quote]

I think a "Tommyverse" would be quite interesting. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 17, 2015 09:57PM)
Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy!

Sounds a lot like "The Garden of Eden" before the Fall. You might be on the right track. :)
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 17, 2015 10:01PM)
I think Ron would not allow for a Fall Aces

Kam
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (Apr 17, 2015 10:02PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Just to interject, because the OP raised a question about morality, not religion:

I have a paperback edition of the book "The Moral Animal: Why We Are The Way We Are" by Robert Wright.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Moral-Animal-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

It was shipped to me by mistake when I ordered a different used book from an online source. They corrected their mistake and forwarded me the correct book, but told me not to bother returning "The Moral Animal" book. Since I have no interest in the topic, I would be happy to send it to someone else.

The sub-heading claims this book deals with "The New Science Of Evolutionary Psychology." And the New York Times Book Review says: "Fiercely intelligent, beautifully written and engrossingly original. A feast of great thinking and writing about the most profound issues there are."

Landmark, since you were the OP, I'll let you have first dibs. Otherwise, whoever PM's me next will get the book. Shipping is on me. [/quote]
Thanks, arthur, but the unread book pile is growing like kudzu around here. [/quote]

That's exactly why I needed to get rid of it, Landmark.

Anyway, the book has now been spoken for, One of you lucky contributors will be receiving it in the mail.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 17, 2015 11:05PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, kambiz wrote:
I think Ron would not allow for a Fall Aces

Kam [/quote]

I think you are correct.
Message: Posted by: Destiny (Apr 18, 2015 12:45AM)
I'd go to Rontopia just for the M&M's, but I need to know if one puts on weight from eating such manna from the heavens in Rontopia?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 01:36PM)
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom [/quote]

It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I [I]wouldn't[/I] do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! :-)

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! :-)

Ron [/quote]


Would you give man Free Will? Or would you keep him in a little cage and let him do only what R.S. allows? Just a thought. Maybe that is why you are not God. :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 22, 2015 01:54PM)
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 02:08PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 22, 2015 03:20PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 03:28PM)
Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and don’t mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesn’t change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you won’t make it. It’s entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 22, 2015 03:56PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and don’t mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesn’t change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you won’t make it. It’s entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom [/quote]

And of the infinite "me"s you could have created, with such foreknowledge, you could have chosen to create the one who would come to see you, or the one who is exactly alike in all other respects but wouldn't.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 22, 2015 07:03PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 17, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

What about if you were running things?

Would you save me a seat? Like you I do good deeds and try to treat others fair. What if I trusted and had faith in you. I accepted you as my leader.

And what about those that want nothing to do with you? Those that refuse to have any faith at all? Those that don’t trust you? Those that don't play by the rules?


Fair to treat all the same? And what about the really bad people, would you pardon all those too?

Tom [/quote]

It's hard to say what I would do if I were running the universe, but it's easier to say what I [I]wouldn't[/I] do. For starters:

- I wouldn't create a place of eternal torture.
- I wouldn't endorse slavery.
- I wouldn't consider eating shellfish an abomination.
- I wouldn't command people not to wear clothes of mixed fabrics.
- I wouldn't command that a woman must not be permitted to teach, nor to have authority over a man, but to be in "quietness".
- I wouldn't command that people be put to death for homosexuality.
- I wouldn't flood the Earth killing every single human (including innocent babies) and animal on the planet.
- I wouldn't visit plagues on people.
- I wouldn't command stoning rebellious children to death.
- I wouldn't kill the firstborn of an entire country (including the firstborn of livestock).
- I wouldn't remain hidden, knowing that my absence would spawn different religions and foster controversy, divisiveness, skepticism, and conflicts.
- I wouldn't author a book full of inconsistencies and contradictions.
- I wouldn't sacrifice myself to myself to act as a loophole for a rule which I myself created, thus saving you from me.
- I wouldn't demand worship. Why?
- I wouldn't encourage "faith" - rather, I would encourage critical thinking and only believing in things for which there is sufficient evidence.
- I wouldn't allow innocent children to suffer and die from cancer.
- I wouldn't stand by passively watching as earthquakes, floods, tornados, and other natural disasters take the lives of many - especially the very young.
- I wouldn't create multiple realms, using one as a "test" life and one as a "real" life. What for? You only need one realm.
- I wouldn't create parasitic creatures and disease carrying insects.
- I wouldn't get jealous.
- I wouldn't get angry, vindictive, and downright violent.
- I wouldn't be obsessed with what consenting couples do while naked in the privacy of their own homes.
- I wouldn't have let the ball go through Buckner's legs.

And yes Tom, YOU would be welcome in Rontopia! :-)

As far as the "rule-breakers", well they would learn soon enough that bad/non-productive behavior has it's consequences. If you punch someone in the nose, then you can probably expect to be punched in the nose yourself. If you're mean to someone, they won't treat you well in return. But for dealing with more extreme cases of impropriety I suppose I could implement a system similar in a lot of ways to the justice system we have now.

Oh, and in Rontopia the rain is M&Ms and trees sprout cotton candy! :-)

Ron [/quote]


Would you give man Free Will? Or would you keep him in a little cage and let him do only what R.S. allows? Just a thought. Maybe that is why you are not God. :) [/quote]

First, you need to define what you mean by Free Will. And, as Lobo has stated, there are some pesky issues that come into play when omniscience, creation, and free will are all intertwined.

But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why. Thanks Aces.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 22, 2015 07:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]

So why does God create people that he KNOWS will choose a different religion (or will simply not believe in any gods), and therefore end up tortured for eternity? Does he get a kick out of torture? If your dog (or your neighbors dog) bit the mailman, would you torture that dog for 24 hours? I doubt many people would advocate that. Yet, astonishingly, many people have no problem torturing [I]human beings[/I] FOREVER for something as trivial as not being convinced of something. Think about that. Isn't that amazing? People would be sickened by the thought of torturing a dog for a few hours, but religion has managed to pervert the thinking process to such a degree as to make eternal human torture not only palatable, but desirable! And it's all God's plan. But the faithful can never admit to the madness (and wickedness) of this detestable system so they blame the victims by playing the "free will" card.


Ron
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 22, 2015 07:26PM)
"Those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son."
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 22, 2015 07:27PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]
I think this is a good reply to the question as written.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 22, 2015 07:29PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]
I think this is a good reply to the question as written. [/quote]

I don't, but I appreciate your mileage ' s variance. You can't play the "I'm just a mindreader" card when you also created the mind.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 22, 2015 07:33PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Life is a sightseeing trip; we can choose many different paths and still end up at the same place. The little twists and turns we make are
up to us and don’t mean we will never get to a predicted place. I could give you a road map to my house with a million different routes to take.
How you get here is your choice and it doesn’t change the fact I knew you were coming.

I also know ahead of time that if you remain loss you won’t make it. It’s entirely up to you. I gave you two choices, come see me or not.


Tom [/quote]

But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? :-)


Ron
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 07:34PM)
Personally I'm against the M&Ms and cotton candy.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 08:15PM)
[quote]

But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? :-)


Ron [/quote]


I believe I said, “I would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did.” Meaning, unless you asked for that forgiveness I might not be so happy.:)

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (Apr 22, 2015 08:24PM)
There's a book by Larry Niven called "Inferno." A science fiction writer dies unrepetant and is sent to Hell. While there, he meets a guide named Benito and is taken through all the levels of Hell to reach the center where he can find a cave that will lead to Heaven.

At the end of the book. While sitting in the cave with Benito. Alan, the writer, says that he's come up with a reason why God would create a Hell and there's only one way to test it.

I won't spoil it for you, go to the library and find "Inferno" by Larry Niven.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 22, 2015 08:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]

But Tom, you've already admitted that, unlike your God, you would bring decent nonbelievers into Heaven. Are you now contradicting yourself? :-)


Ron [/quote]


I believe I said, “I would be forgiving but not sure I would forget all the things you did.” Meaning, unless you asked for that forgiveness I might not be so happy.:)

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom [/quote]

So are you saying that as long as nonbelievers ask for forgiveness after they die, then you would allow them into Heaven? And if not, then you might send them to Hell?

Ron
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 08:36PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:

I put you here, gave you a choice, a mind to help you make that choice, what else you want? Surely not to take way the ability to think on your own, like I did some,
but those get a free pass. The rest are free to choose. Nothing unfair about that.

Tom [/quote]

I'm confused. Who exactly did you take away the freedom to think from, and why do they get a free pass?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 08:43PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 08:48PM)
Ron after they die it’s too late.:)

Did I mention my number one rule; I don’t have to explain myself to nobody. What’s done is done. Take it or leave it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 08:52PM)
You are having a causal conversation God. You are holding an apple. Now God says to you. I know whether you are going to take a bite of that apple or not. However the choice is yours. But he still knows what your choice will be.

Of course a mentalist can do the same thing with two pieces of paper. One saying your bit the apple and the other saying you did not bite the apple. :)
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 09:13PM)
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. :)

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 09:45PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. :)

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. :)

Tom [/quote]

For the most part we agree on most issues.

However The, keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Not really. Think about it.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 10:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. :)

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. :)

Tom [/quote]

For the most part we agree on most issues.

However The, keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. Not really. Think about it. [/quote]

I guess certain types of minds think alike. Most of the time.

Still wondering who doesn't get the ability to choose, and why.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 10:12PM)
When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice. Isn’t it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasn’t learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 10:26PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice. Isn’t it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasn’t learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom [/quote]

Seriously curious about this.

So, the mentally impaired, who you chose to take the choice away from; and children, who have no choice until a certain age. at which point they are responsible for making choices, get a pass?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 22, 2015 10:40PM)
Of course, why not? It’s only fair that they do.

Now that impairment may not be as bad as some think.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 22, 2015 10:50PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice. Isn’t it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasn’t learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom [/quote]

I do understand your reasoning. But the point I was trying to make is that if you do not make a choice as per the example with the apple you do not bite it. Ergo the choice is negative , NO BITE...although not a choice but electing to do nothing is not biting the apple in this example. OMG I have a headache, lol.

Tom, it may be difficult but definitely worth the effort. Try and pretend that NYCTwister is not here. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 11:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf: [/quote]

If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 22, 2015 11:03PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Of course, why not? It’s only fair that they do.

Now that impairment may not be as bad as some think.:)

Tom [/quote]

So my assumption about your decision making processes, if you were god, is correct?
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 22, 2015 11:35PM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
"Those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son." [/quote]

Lobo, this quote is not in reference to people like you and I.

Kam
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 12:20AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 23, 2015 12:26AM)
Good stuff, Lobo. I have something to think about today,
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 05:12AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron after they die it’s too late.:)

Did I mention my number one rule; I don’t have to explain myself to nobody. What’s done is done. Take it or leave it.

Tom [/quote]

Tom, you're all over the place, so try to stay consistent. Before, in another thread, you said that if you were God you would let me (and other good nonbelievers) into Heaven. So now what do you mean by "too late"? Nonbelievers by definition do not believe at the time of death.

And why wouldn't you have to explain yourself? In fact, wouldn't explaining yourself justify your actions even more?? Wouldn't you (an all-loving being) want people to have a full understanding of how the system works, rather than have them be confused and possibly make wrong decisions?

And lastly, on this whole worship me or be tortured for eternity bit, does that even make sense? Tom, you have said that you have children. If you had a falling out with your own son or daughter - say some disagreement that caused you to be estranged - would you want him/her to be taken away and tortured (or even just imprisoned and isolated) FOREVER AND EVER???? Would you? If you wouldn't do that to your own child, then why would an all-loving being do that to his children? Isn't it more likely that humans created this story during a time of superstition and ignorance in order to keep other humans in line?

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 05:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
You are having a causal conversation God. You are holding an apple. Now God says to you. I know whether you are going to take a bite of that apple or not. However the choice is yours. But he still knows what your choice will be.

Of course a mentalist can do the same thing with two pieces of paper. One saying your bit the apple and the other saying you did not bite the apple. :) [/quote]

That's besides the point. Even if we grant that people themselves truly have free will (this is debatable, but for now we'll say they do), the question is this:

Why would God create beings he KNOWS will only end up being tortured forever, when he (God) had a choice of creating them in the first place? God's "plan" is apparently to create and ultimately torture some humans.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 05:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No not hard at all when you only have two choices. :)

Also keep in mind, refusing to choose is a choice. :)

Tom [/quote]

Tom, answer this question with a simple yes or no... do you believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King?

Ron
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Apr 23, 2015 05:35AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead! [/quote]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/N0q3yzX.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2015 08:28AM)
The biggest question is, why do you deserve an explanation from God? Certainly you don’t if you don’t believe he exists.
I would think that the first step to understanding is belief. Until then you just wandering around with your eyes closed
trying to see what others can plainly see.

Can you see with your eyes closed? I don’t think so.

Tom
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 08:29AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf: [/quote]

If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw. [/quote]

:rotf:


Hope all is well with Ian. Hurry back.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 23, 2015 08:34AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
:rotf: [/quote]

If you keep coming out of your corner little man then eventually a Muslim will get behind you.

I'm trying to help you so, for your own sake, stay in your little corner of the world. Everyone is the same there, so they will protect you while you laugh like a madman.

Ian says hi, Btw. [/quote]

:rotf:


Hope all is well with Ian. Hurry back. [/quote]

Whatever the XRSH says as long it stays in the corner.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 23, 2015 08:36AM)
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
When you have to make a choice and don’t make it, that is in itself a choice. Isn’t it?

NYC, certainly a child that hasn’t learned to think should get a free pass. Or perhaps someone
through no fault of their own has become unable to think clearly.

Tom [/quote]

Seriously curious about this.

So, the mentally impaired, who you chose to take the choice away from; and children, who have no choice until a certain age. at which point they are responsible for making choices, get a pass? [/quote]

?????????
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 08:40AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
Well, Jack? See why you can't philosophize in an Internet forum? You ask about natural law and you get a discussion about the existence of God.

Let's talk about HITLER instead! [/quote]

We're all just still waiting for you to bite after a few others have answered!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 23, 2015 09:06AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind. [/quote]
Can God build a random number generator?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 09:10AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind. [/quote]
Can God build a random number generator? [/quote]

BAIT. You make me laugh.

Why not ask if God can make Himself forget? Please let's not be juvenile here.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 09:15AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind. [/quote]
Can God build a random number generator? [/quote]


Now you're butting right up against the question I find most interesting - Can God build a random number generator which will generate numbers He's previously unaware of? Or to put it another way, Can God be surprised?

My instinct is that in a theistic (Christian, at least) worldview, God would have to able to suspend his own omniscience in order for us to have free will. Otherwise, IMO, we're just super-advanced machines who have mistakenly,ascribed free will to our determined actions.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 09:16AM)
[quote]On Sep 28, 2013, LobowolfXXX wrote:
A god came to a man
And said to him thus:
"I have an apple
It is a glorious apple
Aye, I swear by my ancestors
Of the eternities before this eternity It is an apple that is from
The inner thoughts of heaven's greatest.
"And this I will hang here
And then I will adjust thee here Thus – you may reach it.
And you must stifle your nostrils And control your hands
And your eyes
And sit for sixty years
But, – leave be the apple."
The man answered in this wise:
"Oh, most interesting God
What folly is this?
Behold, thou hast moulded my desires Even as thou hast moulded the apple.
...



-Stephen Crane [/quote]
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 23, 2015 09:43AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind. [/quote]
Can God build a random number generator? [/quote]


Now you're butting right up against the question I find most interesting - Can God build a random number generator which will generate numbers He's previously unaware of? Or to put it another way, Can God be surprised?

My instinct is that in a theistic (Christian, at least) worldview, God would have to able to suspend his own omniscience in order for us to have free will. Otherwise, IMO, we're just super-advanced machines who have mistakenly,ascribed free will to our determined actions. [/quote]

Please stop shattering people's illusions.

It's not very nice.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 23, 2015 10:10AM)
The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

It seems to me that when Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, an omniscient God would have responded, "Why? You **** well know why!" :eek:
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 23, 2015 10:19AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 22, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think a more interesting question is whether an omniscient creator COULD give man free will. [/quote]


God's knowing what we will do, does not inhibit us from making a free choice. It is just that God knows what it will be. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I did not make it rise. [/quote]


The problem isn't just omniscience; it's omniscience coupled with creation. I agree that you didn't make the sun raise, but in your example, God (for at least the sake of argument) created the sun, the earth, and the laws of gravitation; you didn't. That's an important difference. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it to happen. [/quote]

I will only repeat what I said earlier. There's a difference between being a (mere) mindreader and being the one who created the mind. [/quote]
Can God build a random number generator? [/quote]

BAIT. You make me laugh.

Why not ask if God can make Himself forget? Please let's not be juvenile here. [/quote]
Not trying to bait anyone. Lobo is onto what I'm getting at here. I'm more on your side of this question, actually, aces.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 23, 2015 10:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

[/quote]
That's an interesting observation, Bob.

The part of the OT that always bothered me was in the Exodus story where it says "God hardened the Pharaoh's heart," each time before the next plague was sent. Why would God take away Pharaoh's free will to let the Israelites go, only to punish him with a new plague for disobedience?
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 23, 2015 12:34PM)
Y'all know there's no god right?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 12:39PM)
That's quite a statement of faith.
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Apr 23, 2015 12:46PM)
Now you know why I stick to the animated gifs.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 01:21PM)
Remember that we are dealing with two phases here. One is Man's physical existance here on earth and the second is destiny of his immortal soul for all eternity. Do not confuse the two even though both at times are referred too as life.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world (the short time here on earth) and loses his immortal soul?

Many speak of punishment. There is the punishment here on earth. However the extreme punishment and loss of one's soul is the only punishment man should concern himself with.

Death at times in the Bible refers to the loss of ones immortal soul, not the death of his physical being here on earth. Whereas life may refer to the short time here on earth. It also may mean sharing and being with God for all of eternity. It all depends on how it was put to scripture. The Bible is just not to be taken literally as a story, but rather as an instrument to help guide man to save his immortal soul for all eternity and have his soul live as opposed to losing it by sin and having it dead. Remember the soul is immortal. So it never dies but it lives in God and dies in sin.

I am not able to express all that I believe in a few words here and am trying to get across my thoughts and beliefs and not be extremely verbose and as such I am sure my posts leaves a lot to be desired in explanation...sorry.

When speaking of life and death in the Bible, one must realize what the Bible is referring too. Is it the short life span here on earth, or is it the eternal life with God.

I am discussing here what has been discussed for countless centuries and millions upon millions of words have written . So do not expect to get an answer from my posting a few words on The Café.

I will end this post by saying. Believe what you will. You have the free will to do and believe what you will. I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason. I am not God, nor do I claim to know His reason. However I have faith in God and will follow what I believe. Everyone makes their own decisions in matters such as these. It is these decisions that I believe will affect your immortal soul. We can all act and say whatever to our fellow man but God knows what is in your heart. You can fool your fellow man but you cannot fool God. I am not saying you must believe me. Far from it. I am only telling you what I believe. Do as you wish and believe what you want. I am fine with that. I do not have to defend my beliefs to anyone. I have faith and have nothing to prove nor am I trying to convert anyone. Glad I got that off my chest. Thanks if you read this far. If not I understand. :)
Message: Posted by: Payne (Apr 23, 2015 01:22PM)
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

It seems to me that when Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, an omniscient God would have responded, "Why? You **** well know why!" :eek:

[/quote]

But then if god isn't omniscient it isn't all knowing.
If it isn't all knowing then it isn't all powerful.
If it isn't all powerful then why call it god?

What's the point in worshiping a god with limitations? :)
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 23, 2015 02:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Payne wrote:


But then if god isn't omniscient it isn't all knowing.
If it isn't all knowing then it isn't all powerful.
If it isn't all powerful then why call it god?

What's the point in worshiping a god with limitations? :) [/quote]

Holy non sequitur, Batman!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2015 02:36PM)
What if God is a thousand times smarter than we are?

Would that change things?

Of course it would. So the real question here is, am I as smart as God?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Payne (Apr 23, 2015 03:04PM)
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:

What if God is a thousand times smarter than we are?

Would that change things?

Of course it would. So the real question here is, am I as smart as God?

Tom
[/quote]

If it's the god of the Bible then yes, I am far smarter than that god.

I certainly wouldn't have told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge before they knew the difference between right and wrong.

I would've put in the Ten Commandments that Woman are equal to men, Rape is bad and slavery is forbidden.

I'd let Jews eat Bacon and clams

I would have come up with a virus to kill all the evil humans on the planet without having to wipe out all life haphazardly with a world wide flood.

I certainly wouldn't have sent my son down to earth to horribly and painfully sacrifice himself to give humanity an way to get into heaven. I'd have simply changed the rules. Rules that I made so I should be able to change and amend them without torturing people.

I certainly wouldn't unfairly dish out eternal punishment for finite crimes.

I would also make sure my Holy book wasn't full of contradictions, historical inaccuracies and thinly veiled fables stolen from other cultures.

So yes, I think I'm smarter than this god. I think the average six year old is as well. :)
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 03:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:

What if God is a thousand times smarter than we are?

Would that change things?

Of course it would. So the real question here is, am I as smart as God?

Tom
[/quote]

If it's the god of the Bible then yes, I am far smarter than that god.

I certainly wouldn't have told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge before they knew the difference between right and wrong.

I would've put in the Ten Commandments that Woman are equal to men, Rape is bad and slavery is forbidden.

I'd let Jews eat Bacon and clams

I would have come up with a virus to kill all the evil humans on the planet without having to wipe out all life haphazardly with a world wide flood.

I certainly wouldn't have sent my son down to earth to horribly and painfully sacrifice himself to give humanity an way to get into heaven. I'd have simply changed the rules. Rules that I made so I should be able to change and amend them without torturing people.

I certainly wouldn't unfairly dish out eternal punishment for finite crimes.

I would also make sure my Holy book wasn't full of contradictions, historical inaccuracies and thinly veiled fables stolen from other cultures.

So yes, I think I'm smarter than this god. I think the average six year old is as well. :) [/quote]

You still don't see the difference between the short time here on earth in physical form as opposed to eternity in which your soul will exist. Maybe you are not as smart as you think you are. :)
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 23, 2015 04:22PM)
Y'all know, in addition to there being no god, that there's no souls either right?
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 23, 2015 04:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
That's quite a statement of faith. [/quote]

You're aware that faith is believing in things that can't be seen, not the other way around right?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 04:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
That's quite a statement of faith. [/quote]

You're aware that faith is believing in things that can't be seen, not the other way around right? [/quote]

"b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

I trust you have no proof that there is no God?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 23, 2015 04:40PM)
[quote]We’re always thinking of eternity as an idea that cannot be understood, something immense. But why must it be? What if, instead of all this, you suddenly find just a little room there, something like a village bath-house, grimy, and spiders in every corner, and that’s all eternity is. Sometimes, you know, I can’t help feeling that that’s probably what it is.[/quote] Dostoevsky [I]Crime and Punishment[/I]
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 23, 2015 05:19PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
That's quite a statement of faith. [/quote]

You're aware that faith is believing in things that can't be seen, not the other way around right? [/quote]

"b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

I trust you have no proof that there is no God? [/quote]

We gonna rehash that yet again? Tell ya what, you prove there is no Kukulcan.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 05:39PM)
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 05:40PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
Y'all know, in addition to there being no god, that there's no souls either right? [/quote]


If that is what you believe. Then so be it.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 05:42PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]We’re always thinking of eternity as an idea that cannot be understood, something immense. But why must it be? What if, instead of all this, you suddenly find just a little room there, something like a village bath-house, grimy, and spiders in every corner, and that’s all eternity is. Sometimes, you know, I can’t help feeling that that’s probably what it is.[/quote] Dostoevsky [I]Crime and Punishment[/I] [/quote]


I hate spiders.
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 23, 2015 06:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith. [/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 23, 2015 06:25PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith. [/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like. [/quote]

So you don't have a firm belief in something that is unproven?

I'm just following the dictionary. Either:

1) You have proof that God doesn't exist; or

2) You don't have a firm belief that God doesn't exist; or

3) You have faith (that God doesn't exist).
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 06:32PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
That's quite a statement of faith. [/quote]

You're aware that faith is believing in things that can't be seen, not the other way around right? [/quote]

"b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

I trust you have no proof that there is no God? [/quote]

We gonna rehash that yet again? Tell ya what, you prove there is no Kukulcan. [/quote]

Who said there was no Kukulcan?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 06:34PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith. [/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like. [/quote]

That is a pity.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 07:00PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
The biggest question is, why do you deserve an explanation from God? Certainly you don’t if you don’t believe he exists.
I would think that the first step to understanding is belief. Until then you just wandering around with your eyes closed
trying to see what others can plainly see.

Can you see with your eyes closed? I don’t think so.

Tom [/quote]

The Muslims, or the Mormons, or the Scientologists, or the Hindus might say the same thing... "the first step to understanding is belief". So are YOU walking around with YOUR eyes closed when it comes to these other religions??

Also, you have avoided these questions, so please answer them as well.

1) On this whole worship me or be tortured for eternity bit, does that even make sense? Tom, you have said that you have children. If you had a falling out with your own son or daughter - say some disagreement that caused you to be estranged - would you want him/her to be taken away and tortured (or even just imprisoned and isolated) FOREVER AND EVER???? [b]WOULD YOU[/b]? If you wouldn't do that to your own child, then why would an all-loving being do that to his children? Isn't it more likely that humans created this story during a time of superstition and ignorance in order to keep other humans in line?

2) Do you believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King?

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 07:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.
[/quote]

Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 07:44PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
What if God is a thousand times smarter than we are?

Would that change things?

Of course it would. So the real question here is, am I as smart as God?

Tom [/quote]

Tom, you've already told us that, unlike your god, you would bring nonbelievers into Heaven. So do YOU think you're smarter than God? Obviously you do if you would operate differently than him.

Also, would a "smart" God endorse slavery and advocate burning witches? If so, should we then return to those practices?

Ron
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2015 07:44PM)
Ron,

No I wouldn’t want my children to be tortured. I would hope they’re smart enough to believe in God oh. But no of course I wouldn’t want them to be harmed.
Problem is it’s not my rules. I don’t own the world. I’m just one simple person that doesn’t understand a lot of things, but still I have faith in God and
I trust him. He hasn’t disappointed me yet so why should I stop believing now? Cause you and a few others say so? Give me one reason to trust you over my God?

I have no reason to believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King. Or to disbelieve for that matter. I don’t know. But I suppose if 95 percent of the people in the world
believe there was one I wouldn’t disagree with them so quickly.

Ron, you think you’re smarter than God?

Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2015 07:50PM)
No I didn't say I would bring nonbelievers into Heaven.
I said I would like to. I feel sorry for them and would like to.
But again, that's not my doings. I'm not God and No of course I'm not that smart.


Ron if you believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a heaven, would you tell your children to not worry about it.
Would you bet their lives on it?

Tom
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 08:26PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Ron,

No I wouldn’t want my children to be tortured. I would hope they’re smart enough to believe in God oh. But no of course I wouldn’t want them to be harmed.
[/quote]

OK. But in my analogy of you and your estranged child, even if he/she refused to reconcile with you, you [I]still[/I] wouldn't want to see them tortured, right?. BUT... God DOES torture his estranged children! THAT'S the difference. YOU are more moral than your god! And you know this in your heart!


[quote]
Problem is it’s not my rules. I don’t own the world. I’m just one simple person that doesn’t understand a lot of things, but still I have faith in God and
I trust him. He hasn’t disappointed me yet so why should I stop believing now? Cause you and a few others say so?
[/quote]

Tom, you have a brain. Use it to think. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You are not some helpless schmuck who must subjugate himself to some perceived deity (and based on the OT, a wicked one at that!). Not understanding things is no reason to then just latch on to whatever belief system someone wants to indoctrinate you into. He may not have disappointed YOU but I can tell you that he has disappointed millions of faithful parents who lost their precious children to cancer, or to earthquakes, or floods, or tornados. He has disappointed his disciples, whom he told he would return in their lifetime. He has disappointed every single amputee who has prayed for a cure to [I]their[/I] affliction. And for millennia he has disappointed humanity by visiting poverty, disease, war, and suffering on billions of people as punishment for something that someone else did a long, long time ago.

[quote]
Give me one reason to trust you over my God?
[/quote]

NO - I'm not asking you to trust ME! I want you to trust YOURSELF! I honestly believe you are a good, moral person - with or without any gods. That's all you need.

[quote]

I have no reason to believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King.
[/quote]

Exactly! Now you're getting it! But to the point I was making, I'm sure that if I told you that in my Leprechaunism religion, nonbelievers are sent to Leprechaun Hell, and furthermore that you just CHOSE to go there by not believing in the Supreme Leprechaun King, you would find my logic somewhat impaired, wouldn't you? You did not CHOOSE to go to Leprechaun Hell. You don't even believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King, for crying out loud!

[quote]
Or to disbelieve for that matter. I don’t know. But I suppose if 95 percent of the people in the world
believe there was one I wouldn’t disagree with them so quickly.
[/quote]

Really? You would believe in a Supreme Leprechaun King if only a certain amount of people believed it???? What about evaluating things based on whether there is sufficient and compelling evidence for the belief, rather than just on how many people believe it?


[quote]
Ron, you think you’re smarter than God?

Tom [/quote]

No Tom, I don't believe there are any gods.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 23, 2015 08:38PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
No I didn't say I would bring nonbelievers into Heaven.
[/quote]

INDEED YOU DID!!!! Please don't try to squirm out of this one! It's okay to disagree with your god. The fact is that you would be a more loving god than the one you now worship - there's nothing wrong with that, Tom. Be proud of it! :-)


[quote]
I said I would like to. I feel sorry for them and would like to.
But again, that's not my doings. I'm not God and No of course I'm not that smart.
[/quote]

Stop with the self flagellation! You ARE that smart! And that decent! Maintain your human dignity for pete's sake!

[quote]
Ron if you believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a heaven, would you tell your children to not worry about it.
Would you bet their lives on it?

Tom [/quote]

If (IF) I believed there was a 50/50 chance there is a Heaven, then I would tell my children that I believe there is a 50/50 chance that Heaven is real. Not sure what you mean by "bet their lives on it".

Ron
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 23, 2015 09:04PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The omniscience problem is interesting, but it really has nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God, since He is clearly not omniscient if one takes scripture literally. Why, for example, would it have been necessary for God to cause the flood to essentially start things all over again if He knew they were going to go wrong in the first place? And why would God have asked Satan, in the book of Job, to report to Him about the conditions on earth and to provide updates on Job while testing him to see if he would keep his faith under adversity? An omniscient God would have already known the answers.

It seems to me that when Jesus cried from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?, an omniscient God would have responded, "Why? You **** well know why!" :eek:

[/quote]

But then if god isn't omniscient it isn't all knowing.
If it isn't all knowing then it isn't all powerful.
If it isn't all powerful then why call it god?

What's the point in worshiping a god with limitations? :) [/quote]

Because it is is that have limitations.
We are all so quick to assign these qualities onto a God as if it's just another human being but with dichotomies.

Kam
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Apr 23, 2015 09:18PM)
On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 23, 2015 09:41PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.
[/quote]

Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron [/quote]

Let's see now. First I got a guy (Payne) telling me he is smarter than God. Now I got a guy (R.S.) who made a list that he feels is much better than most of the things God has done or said and wants me to comment on it. With this vast pool of knowledge of you two guys I find myself entirely to lowly to even be in your company. As such I am going to have to bow out on this one. You guys are really the Supreme Beings here. No need for a believer in God to aid you in your teachings. You are going a fine job. I bow down to your omnipresence, as nothing more than a mere lowly Christian, who believes in God as the creator of all.

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much. I must be missing something. Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God. The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way. But I am probably wrong in thinking that. Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous. Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists? Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist? Or are you trying to convince yourself?

qui sumus
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2015 10:17PM)
Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 23, 2015 11:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again. [/quote]
How did that happen??!!
Message: Posted by: Payne (Apr 23, 2015 11:32PM)
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.

[/quote]

It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.

[quote]
I must be missing something.
[/quote]

Getting to sleep in on Sundays and not having a life riddled with guilt.

[quote]
Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God.
[/quote]

Well obviously it does otherwise you wouldn't bother to respond to these posts.

[quote]
The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way
[/quote]

On the contrary. Many of us live full and meaningful lives free from fear guilt and superstition.

[quote]
But I am probably wrong in thinking that.
[/quote]

Yes you are

[quote]
Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous.
[/quote]

It is far more marvelous than you could ever know.

[quote]
Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists?
]/quote]

We do. :)

[quote]
Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist?
[/quote]

For the exact same reasons you keep trying to but into your belief system.

[quote]
Or are you trying to convince yourself?
[/quote]

Nope, we are extremely secure in our beliefs. After all many of us have come to them by studying the facts and examining the evidience. Not just blindly accepting what we were told as childen
Message: Posted by: Salguod Nairb (Apr 24, 2015 12:11AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, Salguod Nairb wrote:
On a side note: I'm now down to 8 posts... now I have to go change my sig again. [/quote]
How did that happen??!! [/quote]

Guess they are clearing out the archives. They actually have members with negative post counts! I belive my only 'real' posts are all in the ML Guest of Honor from 2011.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Apr 24, 2015 03:41AM)
I have reread many of the post on this thread -- mostly with amusement.

A couple of thoughts come to mind:

Why does anyone feel that their level/degree of believing in something have any bearing on the truth of that "something?" The existence or lack thereof of a supreme being cannot possibly be dependent on the feeble imagination or faith of any person or all of humanity.

The need for a person to ask spiritual questions may be natural. The desire to cloister in a stone building with others of a similar delusion may also be natural but has little to do with spiritual exploration. Being "spiritual" and being "religious" are not the same thing.

Why do so many feel a need to limit God or create a God in their own image -- and then kill anyone who doesn't ascribe to their limitations? Spiritual exploration should ennoble a person. What we get from religion is ...

I personally "know" that my spiritual essence is eternal but have no need to convince anyone else of this knowledge.

I also know that any divine entity has better things to do than meddle in the daily lives of earthworms.

I could be "in error" in my thinking, so I continue to think and explore.

So, I observe how people treat strangers and dogs and their parents -- how they use reason and emotion in persuasion.

Occasionally I find someone whose opinion I might value. Mostly I find only egoic frippery.

Including this posting, I suppose.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 24, 2015 05:30AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:
I believe that free will was given to you by God for a reason.
[/quote]

Do you think God creates souls that he knows ahead of time will end up in Hell?


Also, you still haven't answered this:

"But now that you've seen my list, do you think that's a better way overall to run the universe? If not, tell me specifically which ones on the list you disagree with and why".


Ron [/quote]

Let's see now. First I got a guy (Payne) telling me he is smarter than God. Now I got a guy (R.S.) who made a list that he feels is much better than most of the things God has done or said and wants me to comment on it. With this vast pool of knowledge of you two guys I find myself entirely to lowly to even be in your company. As such I am going to have to bow out on this one. You guys are really the Supreme Beings here. No need for a believer in God to aid you in your teachings. You are going a fine job. I bow down to your omnipresence, as nothing more than a mere lowly Christian, who believes in God as the creator of all.
[/quote]

Yes, bowing out of the conversation is usually the go-to tactic of those confronted with questions they either can't or don't want to answer. So I understand that you don't want to acknowledge that the god you worship chooses to create souls that he knows in advance are just going to end up being tortured forever. Doesn't look good on his resume as an all-loving being, so you shy away from that. Also, you know that my list represents an improvement from the current state of affairs, so you can't comment on that either. Otherwise you would have to admit that humans can easily come up with a better design than your imperfect god. And an imperfect god is no god at all, now is it? :-)


[quote]

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much. I must be missing something. Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God. The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way. But I am probably wrong in thinking that.
[/quote]

Correct - you are wrong. But I'm willing to bet that YOU have a void inside that needs to be filled with the promise of love and acceptance from some unproven almighty "father". I also bet that you occasionally go to a place just to "worship" him in order to gain his approval. And you sometimes tell another person who wears a collar (and has a closer relationship with the father than you do) of all your "sins", so that the person with a collar can then give you a special "cleansing" ritual designed just for you. Now THAT'S insecurity! How empty is YOUR life if it takes a lifetime of this sort of thing to feel "right" (although the guilt of some perceived "original sin" never really does go away, does it?).

[quote]
Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists? [/quote]

As soon as those fools stop trying to force creationism into the science classes of public schools. As soon as those fools stop waging wars in His name. As soon as those fools stay out of our bedrooms. As soon as those fools seek conventional medical care for their sick children. :-)

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Apr 24, 2015 05:32AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom [/quote]

Afraid of what? Help for what?

Ron
Message: Posted by: kambiz (Apr 24, 2015 05:53AM)
I won't bow out of any coversations with you Ron.

My participation however on threads such as this is now very guarded. For some reason the mods have instilled fear in me but not anyone else it seems.

Happy to chat over pm

Kam
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 24, 2015 08:59AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.

[/quote]

It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.

[quote]
I must be missing something.
[/quote]

Getting to sleep in on Sundays and not having a life riddled with guilt.

[quote]
Because it does not bother nor disturb me that you do not believe in God.
[/quote]

Well obviously it does otherwise you wouldn't bother to respond to these posts.

[quote]
The only thing that comes to mind is that you must feel empty inside and want others to feel the same way
[/quote]

On the contrary. Many of us live full and meaningful lives free from fear guilt and superstition.

[quote]
But I am probably wrong in thinking that.
[/quote]

Yes you are

[quote]
Oh well. Whatever it is I am sure it is something marvelous.
[/quote]

It is far more marvelous than you could ever know.

[quote]
Again I just find it strange that you must constantly try and find ways to deny that God exists. If you feel God does not exist. Why not just sit back and laugh at all the fools who believe God exists?
]/quote]

We do. :)

[quote]
Why must you constantly try and convince others He does not exist?
[/quote]

For the exact same reasons you keep trying to but into your belief system.

[quote]
Or are you trying to convince yourself?
[/quote]

Nope, we are extremely secure in our beliefs. After all many of us have come to them by studying the facts and examining the evidience. Not just blindly accepting what we were told as childen [/quote]

And there you have it. The answers from the person who said he is smarter than God. I think from his answers we can deduce quite a bit. The answers really explain a lot. I believe you just opened up the eyes of many and they now know exactly where you are coming from. qui sumus
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 24, 2015 09:04AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, TomBoleware wrote:
Acesover,

I personally believe they’re just trying to convince themselves.
That would be my bet. I think they are afraid and grasping for help.

Tom [/quote]

Afraid of what? Help for what?

Ron [/quote]

You tell us. You are the one afraid and feel the need for help. You are taking the first step. Good boy.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 24, 2015 09:14AM)
R.S. Poster:

Correct - you are wrong. But I'm willing to bet that YOU have a void inside that needs to be filled with the promise of love and acceptance from some unproven almighty "father". I also bet that you occasionally go to a place just to "worship" him in order to gain his approval. And you sometimes tell another person who wears a collar (and has a closer relationship with the father than you do) of all your "sins", so that the person with a collar can then give you a special "cleansing" ritual designed just for you. Now THAT'S insecurity! How empty is YOUR life if it takes a lifetime of this sort of thing to feel "right" (although the guilt of some perceived "original sin" never really does go away, does it?).


I am leaving the house shortly because of an appointment. But I had to answer this quickly. I really wish I could bet you on your statement. I have not been to confession in over 30 years. But you are right that I go to Mass every Sunday and all of our Holy days.

When I read some of your posts I want to really tell you about my life and what I went through. But quite honestly it is none of your business. You think from reading a few posts that I make that you know me. That just shows how delusional you are. You don't know squat about me. The only thing you may or may not know is that at this point in my life I am quite successful and I believe in God. Nothing else.
Message: Posted by: silvercup (Apr 24, 2015 09:55AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith. [/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like. [/quote]

So you don't have a firm belief in something that is unproven?

I'm just following the dictionary. Either:

1) You have proof that God doesn't exist; or

2) You don't have a firm belief that God doesn't exist; or

3) You have faith (that God doesn't exist). [/quote]

I'm not the guy that thinks he has to prove something doesn't exist. Faith doesn't enter into it.
You said you didn't want to rehash but that wasn't true was it?
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 24, 2015 10:11AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith.[/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like.[/quote]

So you don't have a firm belief in something that is unproven?

I'm just following the dictionary. Either:

1) You have proof that God doesn't exist; or

2) You don't have a firm belief that God doesn't exist; or

3) You have faith (that God doesn't exist).[/quote]
I'm not the guy that thinks he has to prove something doesn't exist. Faith doesn't enter into it.
You said you didn't want to rehash but that wasn't true was it?[/quote]
Whether you think it or not isn't relevant.

Faith is at the heart of it, whether you're willing to admit it or not.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 24, 2015 11:49AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, silvercup wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We don't have to rehash anything. I was just commenting on your faith. [/quote]

I assure you I have no faith, but you call it what you like. [/quote]

So you don't have a firm belief in something that is unproven?

I'm just following the dictionary. Either:

1) You have proof that God doesn't exist; or

2) You don't have a firm belief that God doesn't exist; or

3) You have faith (that God doesn't exist). [/quote]

I'm not the guy that thinks he has to prove something doesn't exist. Faith doesn't enter into it.
You said you didn't want to rehash but that wasn't true was it? [/quote]

If you'd quit making faith-based statements, it wouldn't get rehashed. You said you don't have faith, but if you look at an actual definition of faith, which I so generously provided for you, you'd see that's not true, is it?
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 24, 2015 12:22PM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.

[/quote]

It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.
[/quote]

Wow- the Pot Calling The Kettle Black! Well- you really fooled me. Out of everybody here your posts are probably some of the most negative and condescending when it comes to talking about God. You are to funny.....
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 24, 2015 12:29PM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Apr 24, 2015, Payne wrote:
[quote]
On Apr 23, 2015, acesover wrote:

I just cannot fathom why my belief, or the belief, of anyone else in God disturbs you so much.

[/quote]

It doesn't. But you're obviously disturbed by our non=belief. Otherwise you'd just ignore our posts.
[/quote]

Wow- the Pot Calling The Kettle Black! Well- you really fooled me. Out of everybody here your posts are probably some of the most negative and condescending when it comes to talking about God. You are to funny..... [/quote]


I was laughing at that, myself. Let's see, if Aces continually replies to Payne, it means he's disturbed by his beliefs, but if Payne continually responds to Aces, it doesn't mean he's disturbed by *his*'beliefs. Ooookaaaayyyy.