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Topic: Stay safe in Baltimore
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 27, 2015 04:38PM)
Hopefully none of our Café denizens lives in Baltimore, but if so...best wishes & stay safe.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 27, 2015 04:52PM)
:(
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 27, 2015 07:01PM)
Looting at Mondawmin Mall and elsewhere in Baltimore this afternoon apparently "stemmed from a flier that circulated widely among city school students via social media about a 'purge' to take place at 3 p.m., starting at Mondawmin Mall and ending downtown. Such memes have been known to circulate regularly among city school students, based on the film 'The Purge,' about what would happen if all laws were suspended."

(Thank you Hollywood.)

Police spokesman Capt. Eric Kowalczyk "would not speculate on whether the incident was related to Gray's death."

(I'm guessing the two are not totally unrelated.)

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-university-of-baltimore-closes-amid-high-school-purge-threat-20150427-story.html#page=1
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 27, 2015 09:31PM)
What a surprise, rioting and looting. Who would have thought. Just another peaceful demonstration. :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 27, 2015 09:35PM)
Martial law yet?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 27, 2015 09:58PM)
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 27, 2015 10:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 27, 2015 10:02PM)
While they are there will the military be servicing Wal-Marts plumbing?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 27, 2015 10:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 27, 2015 10:26PM)
I see what you did there!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 27, 2015 10:31PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 27, 2015 10:35PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind? [/quote]
Protesting yes. Rioting no.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 27, 2015 10:38PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind? [/quote]
Protesting yes. Rioting no. [/quote]

So then you agree that what is going on there is not justified. Is that correct?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 27, 2015 10:59PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind? [/quote]
Protesting yes. Rioting no. [/quote]

So then you agree that what is going on there is not justified. Is that correct? [/quote]
I agree that looting and destruction of property is unfortunate. People do notice it though don't they?

Which statement do you agree with? American police are going to have to learn that they can't angrily execute suspects. Or, Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 27, 2015 11:11PM)
I wonder at what point most reasonable law abiding people think rioting IS justified.

Presumably there is a tipping point.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 27, 2015 11:16PM)
What do you mean by people do notice it don't they?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 27, 2015 11:17PM)
Like the Boston tea party you mean?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 12:04AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
I wonder at what point most reasonable law abiding people think rioting IS justified.

Presumably there is a tipping point. [/quote]

What do *you* think would justify it?
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 28, 2015 12:11AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
I wonder at what point most reasonable law abiding people think rioting IS justified.

Presumably there is a tipping point. [/quote]

What do *you* think would justify it? [/quote]
I can only speak definitively in terms of one extreme or another. If police were issuing traffic tickets frivolously, I would probably not riot. If police were invading homes in a community and killing innocent people in cold blood and the state was doing nothing about it, I think rioting (at the very least) would be warranted. But what is THE tipping point in between, that I don't know.

So how about yourself?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 12:16AM)
I think it depends on the nature of the rioting. The nexus between police activity and looting/torching private property is such that it's hard for me to think that what we're seeing is anywhere close to justified.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 28, 2015 12:18AM)
I may be wrong, but I do not think anyone here has said the rioting in Baltimore was / is justified. So I think you are not alone so far as what is happening in Baltimore goes. Poorly phrased by me, but you know what I mean (I think).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 28, 2015 12:20AM)
I think Randwill trying to hedge.

I think if there is misconduct I fail to see how destruction of citizens private property helps or is justified no matter what.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 12:25AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
I may be wrong, but I do not think anyone here has said the rioting in Baltimore was / is justified. So I think you are not alone so far as what is happening in Baltimore goes. Poorly phrased by me, but you know what I mean (I think). [/quote]

I was just addressing your question about under what circumstances rioting would be justified (if any). I'm not implying that anyone here thinks it is. I'm just sayi if we're talking about Baltimore-style rioting, we're not within light-years of anything that would justify it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2015 02:11AM)
Yes over 5000 Americans have been killed by American police since 9/11, so I also don’t know why they don’t now consider each new police killing as the new normal, stay calm and carry on.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 28, 2015 08:56AM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

Yep. Sad. But, what are you going to DO about it? Riot? ROFL! Tear up your OWN neighborhood? LOL! Go ahead! Nobody's gonna feel sorry for ya!

And the cops will do what they always do. Mistakes will always be made. My suggestion? Don't run from a cop! Ya ain't gonna get away! Ya might just get SHOT! No brainer. Ya do the crime? Ya do the TIME! Or die.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 09:43AM)
As a boy from the bland prairies, I did not grow up with a taste for spicy food. Many years ago I was with a bunch of Texans in a Chicago restaurant. Chips and salsa appeared on the table. I dipped and bit. "Oh, that's bit spicy for me," I said. One of the Texan's eyes lit up, as he quickly grabbed a chip and scooped up a mess of salsa. He frowned, looked at me and said, "Oh, you were kidding." I kept quiet.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 09:55AM)
Hijacker.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Apr 28, 2015 09:59AM)
Perhaps there's a reason they're called Baltimorons.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 10:01AM)
Never mind dog; Beware of Mom:

http://ipad.aol.com/article/2015/04/28/baltimore-mom-was-not-happy-with-sons-involvement-in-riots/21177360/?icid=maing-grid7%257Cresponsive-tablet%257Cdl1%257Csec3_lnk3%2526pLid%253D1598675838
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Apr 28, 2015 10:05AM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind? [/quote]
Protesting yes. Rioting no. [/quote]

So then you agree that what is going on there is not justified. Is that correct? [/quote]
I agree that looting and destruction of property is unfortunate. People do notice it though don't they?

Which statement do you agree with? American police are going to have to learn that they can't angrily execute suspects. Or, Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

What if they execute them happily instead of "angrily"?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 10:18AM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
There should be no violence in the streets. It should be limited to police vans and interrogation rooms. [/quote]

Is the implication here that somehow it is justified? [/quote]
Police violence against suspects? No. Not justified. [/quote]
Now that you are done being allegedly clever let me clarify.
Rioting to protest it. Is THAT justified in your mind? [/quote]
Protesting yes. Rioting no. [/quote]

So then you agree that what is going on there is not justified. Is that correct? [/quote]
I agree that looting and destruction of property is unfortunate. People do notice it though don't they?

Which statement do you agree with? American police are going to have to learn that they can't angrily execute suspects. Or, Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

I agree that executing suspects is unfortunate.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 10:20AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
Like the Boston tea party you mean? [/quote]

Tommy raises a good question. Would we gentle, kind, law-abiding denizens of NVMS condemn the destruction of private property in the Boston Tea Party? Why or why not?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 10:31AM)
Who will be Baltimore's Benjamin Franklin, insisting that all of the destroyed private property must be paid for?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 28, 2015 10:35AM)
Are we equating rioting like this with the founding of America?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 10:47AM)
Danny: I'm asking a curious question. When does the destruction of private property constitute legitimate protest? The tea did not belong to the British government. Is there a moral difference? If so, what is it?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 28, 2015 10:49AM)
Are we equating rioting like this with the founding of America?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 10:49AM)
I'm not. I'm comparing the destruction of private property in protest to the destruction of private property in protest.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 10:59AM)
Is the destruction of private property in Baltimore being done "in protest"?
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 11:05AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Is the destruction of private property in Baltimore being done "in protest"? [/quote]

Great question. Probably some is and some isn't. Some is probably unfocused rage. Some is probably going along for the ride. Some is probably opportunism. And some is probably calculated protest.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 28, 2015 11:08AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I'm not. I'm comparing the destruction of private property in protest to the destruction of private property in protest. [/quote]


Are you saying that all of those buildings and vehicles is a justified protest? Throw in some looting (got to have looting). Even if those affected by these so called protests had nothing to do with Gary's death? Let them know where you live and burn your house in protest. Or at least spray paint it just do a few thousand dollars in damage to show that they protest. Win, win. They are happy and you helped them protest. Put a few of your valuables on the lawn so they can loot them easily while destroying your property with fire and paint.. The get back to me about the Boston Tea Party.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2015 11:16AM)
Is the destruction of somebodies spinal cord a destruction of their private property?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 28, 2015 11:24AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Are we equating rioting like this with the founding of America? [/quote]
The Boston Tea Party was an act of property destruction that led to the American Revolution by a people who felt they were being oppressed by their government, so there is a similarity.

If innocent people were being executed in America by police officers, what would you deem to be possibly effective counter measures that the people should take to end this? I'm asking because innocent people are being executed by police officers in America.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 28, 2015 11:32AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

Yep. Sad. But, what are you going to DO about it? Riot? ROFL! Tear up your OWN neighborhood? LOL! Go ahead! Nobody's gonna feel sorry for ya!

And the cops will do what they always do. Mistakes will always be made. My suggestion? Don't run from a cop! Ya ain't gonna get away! Ya might just get SHOT! No brainer. Ya do the crime? Ya do the TIME! Or die.

Doug [/quote]

Exactly Doug. It's simple- DON' RUN! If you are innocent there is no need to RUN. Not a hard concept to follow. But for some here, apparently that concept is hard to understand.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 11:36AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Are we equating rioting like this with the founding of America? [/quote]
The Boston Tea Party was an act of property destruction that led to the American Revolution by a people who felt they were being oppressed by their government, so there is a similarity.

If innocent people were being executed in America by police officers, what would you deem to be possibly effective counter measures that the people should take to end this? I'm asking because innocent people are being executed by police officers in America. [/quote]

One problem is that places like CVS provide jobs in the neighborhood, and that's important. So, perhaps, instead, one possibly effective alternative would be to burn down the private residences of people who condone their behavior.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2015 11:38AM)
One effective counter measure is to have secret hearings and pretend it is justified possibly.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 28, 2015 11:42AM)
Surely one major difference between the Tea Party and the current protests/riots is the matter of scale. It was reported that some people tried to steal the tea, but most were unsuccessful. Once the ships were entered by disguised protesters bearing weapons, the tea was destroyed and little else was damaged (so far as we can tell) and the protest came to an end. (A temporary end, I suppose. There was a later war, of course.)

The analogy is clearly imperfect. Yet the Tea Party remains an act theft and destruction of private property in protest of a government.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2015 11:49AM)
Was it the straw that broke the camel’s back?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 28, 2015 12:10PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

Yep. Sad. But, what are you going to DO about it? Riot? ROFL! Tear up your OWN neighborhood? LOL! Go ahead! Nobody's gonna feel sorry for ya!

And the cops will do what they always do. Mistakes will always be made. My suggestion? Don't run from a cop! Ya ain't gonna get away! Ya might just get SHOT! No brainer. Ya do the crime? Ya do the TIME! Or die.

Doug [/quote]

Exactly Doug. It's simple- DON' RUN! If you are innocent there is no need to RUN. Not a hard concept to follow. But for some here, apparently that concept is hard to understand. [/quote]
The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 28, 2015 12:30PM)
He didn't run and he didn't listen either! If a cop tells you to put your hands up- DO IT! If the boy would have LISTENED to the cops instructions (as most never do) he would have been alive. Again- it's not hard- LISTEN to the cop and do what he says. If innocent- you have nothing to fear. But yet again- kids and adults who are black seem to have more trouble listening to authority and feel they don't have to listen. Why is that? Not society's fault- interview their parents or lack of parents.....

There would be a lot less of "mistakes will always be made" if people-kids would listen to instructions. Shame......
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 28, 2015 12:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 12:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On Apr 27, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Americans are going to have to get used to the police angrily executing suspects. [/quote]

Yep. Sad. But, what are you going to DO about it? Riot? ROFL! Tear up your OWN neighborhood? LOL! Go ahead! Nobody's gonna feel sorry for ya!

And the cops will do what they always do. Mistakes will always be made. My suggestion? Don't run from a cop! Ya ain't gonna get away! Ya might just get SHOT! No brainer. Ya do the crime? Ya do the TIME! Or die.

Doug [/quote]

Exactly Doug. It's simple- DON' RUN! If you are innocent there is no need to RUN. Not a hard concept to follow. But for some here, apparently that concept is hard to understand. [/quote]
The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Well, that's just not a fair example. Who but the police could possibly be at fault when a 195 - pound male points a realistic looking gun - one that has been modified in violation of federal law to look realistic - at people and then reaches toward it when confronted by the police - ends up getting killed?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 12:57PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 28, 2015 01:29PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids. [/quote]

Yea- that's true. How sweet- just in the streets playing and being respectful of others property. A picture perfect representation of how 12 year olds are supposed to play in the streets.
Message: Posted by: Daryl -the other brother (Apr 28, 2015 01:32PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Never mind dog; Beware of Mom:

http://ipad.aol.com/article/2015/04/28/baltimore-mom-was-not-happy-with-sons-involvement-in-riots/21177360/?icid=maing-grid7%257Cresponsive-tablet%257Cdl1%257Csec3_lnk3%2526pLid%253D1598675838 [/quote]

This video has gone viral as people all across America applaud this mother. Kid don't look so tough with his mama slapping him upside his head for being a fool. Now that's the person who should be honored at the White House. :applause:
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 28, 2015 02:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids. [/quote]

Just a side note. Do you see any of the present adults telling them to stop? Hmmmm.

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :)
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 28, 2015 02:34PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :) [/quote]

[url=http://www.wbaltv.com/news/police-man-trying-to-break-up-fight-attacked/32527280]You mean like this 61 year old who was brutally beaten?[/url]

"[i]Baltimore County police said officers were called just before 1 p.m. Wednesday to the 500 block of 45th Street in Dundalk, where a 61-year-old man noticed two girls fighting near his truck. He went outside to break up the fight and then was attacked by a large group of juveniles who were watching[/i]."
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 28, 2015 02:41PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :) [/quote]

[url=http://www.wbaltv.com/news/police-man-trying-to-break-up-fight-attacked/32527280]You mean like this 61 year old who was brutally beaten?[/url]

"[i]Baltimore County police said officers were called just before 1 p.m. Wednesday to the 500 block of 45th Street in Dundalk, where a 61-year-old man noticed two girls fighting near his truck. He went outside to break up the fight and then was attacked by a large group of juveniles who were watching[/i]." [/quote]


Love the expression from the parent. He is a good boy. One can only respond. Yes I can see that by his actions. :)
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 28, 2015 02:53PM)
Interesting- the guy, Lamb, who caught this all on his surveillance camera that lives there stated, "The kids walk on top of cars, kick dogs, let dogs out, throw trash, steal milk from school and throw it at houses, threaten neighbors with bodily harm," Lamb said.

Just kids being kids.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 28, 2015 02:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, tommy wrote:
Is the destruction of somebodies spinal cord a destruction of their private property? [/quote]

I think we will find out that Freddie Gray had a prior accident that left him with severe spinal injuries. And, that he was collecting a structured settlement that he was trying to sell to Peachtree Funding.

In addition, I think it will come out that he had undergone surgery within the last month prior to this arrest.

Then again, let us wait and see.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 03:32PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :) [/quote]

[url=http://www.wbaltv.com/news/police-man-trying-to-break-up-fight-attacked/32527280]You mean like this 61 year old who was brutally beaten?[/url]

"[i]Baltimore County police said officers were called just before 1 p.m. Wednesday to the 500 block of 45th Street in Dundalk, where a 61-year-old man noticed two girls fighting near his truck. He went outside to break up the fight and then was attacked by a large group of juveniles who were watching[/i]." [/quote]


Love the expression from the parent. He is a good boy. One can only respond. Yes I can see that by his actions. :) [/quote]

Everyone's favorite River in Egypt...
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 03:34PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids. [/quote]

Just a side note. Do you see any of the present adults telling them to stop? Hmmmm.

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :) [/quote]


I saw the Reginald Denny video.. I'll be teaching a class at USC in Souh Central L.A. tomorrow. Prospective rioters considering vandalizing my car, if occupied, would be well advised to approach from the side.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 28, 2015 04:37PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, acesover wrote:

Curious...what would you do if that was your car they were vandalizing? Say stop that. I think that would work. As they look at you...but don't worry they are only kids how could they harm you. :) [/quote]

[url=http://www.wbaltv.com/news/police-man-trying-to-break-up-fight-attacked/32527280]You mean like this 61 year old who was brutally beaten?[/url]

"[i]Baltimore County police said officers were called just before 1 p.m. Wednesday to the 500 block of 45th Street in Dundalk, where a 61-year-old man noticed two girls fighting near his truck. He went outside to break up the fight and then was attacked by a large group of juveniles who were watching[/i]." [/quote]


Love the expression from the parent. He is a good boy. One can only respond. Yes I can see that by his actions. :) [/quote]

Everyone's favorite River in Egypt... [/quote]

If this were Jeopardy, I would have to say. What is the Nile? :)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 28, 2015 05:10PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Daryl -the other brother wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Never mind dog; Beware of Mom:

http://ipad.aol.com/article/2015/04/28/baltimore-mom-was-not-happy-with-sons-involvement-in-riots/21177360/?icid=maing-grid7%257Cresponsive-tablet%257Cdl1%257Csec3_lnk3%2526pLid%253D1598675838 [/quote]

This video has gone viral as people all across America applaud this mother. Kid don't look so tough with his mama slapping him upside his head for being a fool. Now that's the person who should be honored at the White House. :applause: [/quote]

YES!! Where are all the other bad-ass moms? Need some bippety BOP on these idiots.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Apr 28, 2015 05:54PM)
In the mid 1800's Baltimore had a notorious reputation for violent riots and street fights, earning the city the nickname "mobtown".
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 28, 2015 06:44PM)
Looks like the Baltimore Orioles might break an attendance record of sorts tomorrow:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/04/28/wednesdays-white-sox-orioles-game-moved-to-afternoon-will-be-closed-to-public/

Has anything like this happened before?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 06:54PM)
I'm pretty sure it's completely unheard of.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 28, 2015 07:58PM)
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr.
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Apr 28, 2015 08:45PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
Looks like the Baltimore Orioles might break an attendance record of sorts tomorrow:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/04/28/wednesdays-white-sox-orioles-game-moved-to-afternoon-will-be-closed-to-public/

Has anything like this happened before? [/quote]
According to WTOP it's the first time in MLB 145 year history.
http://wtop.com/baltimore-orioles/2015/04/white-sox-orioles-postponed-again-in-riot-ravaged-baltimore/
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 28, 2015 09:34PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]
Have you seen this one?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 28, 2015 09:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]
Have you seen this one?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/ [/quote]
Great piece. A lot of food for thought in there. Thanks for the link. It makes me want to go watch "Do the Right Thing" again.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 28, 2015 10:04PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]
Have you seen this one?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/ [/quote]
Great piece. A lot of food for thought in there. Thanks for the link. It makes me want to go watch "Do the Right Thing" again. [/quote]
Here is an opposing point of view from someone with intimate knowledge of Baltimore. The comments contain some of the best bits.

http://davidsimon.com/baltimore/
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 28, 2015 10:22PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]

Doubtless, if MLK were here, he'd be torching stores and stealing flatscreens.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 28, 2015 11:30PM)
Martial law in Baltimore?

-2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lruuz_RJWUg
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Apr 29, 2015 01:17AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]

Doubtless, if MLK were here, he'd be torching stores and stealing flatscreens. [/quote]

+1
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 01:26AM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSEU5zHgcTc
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 07:27AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]

Doubtless, if MLK were here, he'd be torching stores and stealing flatscreens. [/quote]


+1 [/quote]
Did you take the MLK quote as approval for rioting? It wasn't, but here's the total context:
http://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 07:31AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids. [/quote]

How dare people get angry when they are oppressed? They should do like white folk do and turn over cars just for fun or football or holidays:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LO2Cw8E.jpg[/img]
Plenty more here of savage behavior:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/white-people-rioting-for-no-reason.html
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 07:32AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]
Have you seen this one?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/ [/quote]
I hadn't seen it, thanks.
I disagree with much of it, but understand the rationale behind all of it.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 07:34AM)
"Orioles COO John Angelos offers eye-opening perspective on Baltimore protests

By Ted Berg April 27, 2015 USA TODAY 9:40 am ET


After protests in Baltimore over the death of Freddie Gray turned violent on Saturday, Baltimore sports-radio broadcaster Brett Hollander took to Twitter to argue that demonstrations that negatively impact the daily lives of fellow citizens are counter-productive. Orioles COO John Angelos, son of owner Peter Angelos, seized the opportunity to respond with a qualified and brilliant defense of those protesting.

You can read the whole thing in Angelos‚ Twitter replies, but it‚s transcribed here for clarity. It‚s all here because it‚s all so good. Read the whole thing:

Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.

That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night‚s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American‚s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids‚ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don‚t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans."

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/orioles-john-angelos-baltimore-protests-mlb
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 29, 2015 08:52AM)
My late dad told me something when I was in high school, after I railed on America and its government. He said, "Leave, then! Go live somewhere else! Try another country! Somewhere in Europe, Africa or Asia. Lemme know how you like it!"

Ask Vlad how he likes The Netherlands. He left America for a better life. He'll tell you in no uncertain terms what an error that was!

In 1990, I was broke, unemployed and staying on a friend's couch here in Maine. I made my way to Florida, and was successful for 20 years. With the grace of God, I did it. Believe me, I am not privileged. I didn't even graduate from high school! My skin color has nothing to do with it.

So, no. I don't pity these people claiming to be "oppressed" and "held down". Just another excuse. Don't like where ya live? MOVE! I did! Always feeling "underprivileged"? Get a freakin' education and step UP! I tell ya, that Mom boppin' her son for being a FOOL, needs to happen more often. But...I hate to say it, why didn't DAD show up? My guess? There ain't one. Therein lies the problem...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 29, 2015 09:04AM)
There is no defense for this!

[youtube]_6ZVq2Fim8Q[/youtube]

Imagine taking your family out to what you assume would be a pleasant outing at the ball park, and, instead, dealing with this!
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 29, 2015 09:21AM)
Animals. Primitive, mindless animals! Seeing this...I get thoughts...and I hate that about myself. Seeing that white guy get beaten up by these thugs, makes me think...gee. If he had been HOME, this would not have happened! Go to a [i]ballgame[/i] with [i]this[/i] .sh*t happening? I think NOT!

Doug
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 09:26AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:

The 12 year-old boy that was executed by a cop in a park in Cleveland last year for playing with a toy gun didn't run. Too bad. I expect "mistakes will always be made" would feel like a weak excuse if it were your child who was gunned down for just being a kid. [/quote]

Here are some of your twelve year olds:

[img]http://pics.mcclatchyinteractive.com/wire_photos/ro5064/picture19751061/ALTERNATES/FREE_960/Suspect%20Dies%20Baltimore.JPEG[/img]

[img]http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/471381728-e1430190386810-620x267.jpg[/img]

And, some of these children have guns, real ones. [/quote]

Oh, they're just being kids. [/quote]

How dare people get angry when they are oppressed? They should do like white folk do and turn over cars just for fun or football or holidays:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LO2Cw8E.jpg[/img]
Plenty more here of savage behavior:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/white-people-rioting-for-no-reason.html [/quote]

Is there a brilliant defense of *those* protesting from a prominent businessman?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 09:58AM)
Nothing at all eye opening there, unless you have been living in a cave for the last half century.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 29, 2015 10:04AM)
As I've read through this thread, it's no surprise that the group of posters who share the same mindset, and worldview, have used this opportunity to justify their opinions.

You also see it on the Ferguson threads, the gay rights threads, the death penalty threads and virtually any thread where tolerance, understanding, and love for their fellow man are qualities that are most needed if these problems are going to be solved.

The sad part is how they think that no one sees the predjudice, bigotry, and hatred that is in their hearts. Their glee when these situations occur is thinly veiled, but obvious once you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

They use phrases like "I'm not saying that this is the way I think, but......." and "It's not all of them, of course, but........." and "Some of my best friends are black, gay etc. but......"

They'll never admit that it is precisely their mindset, which assumes superiority, and creates the divisions among us by default, that is the underlying cause of these problems.

So you folks keep looking for these situations to justify yourselves, but in those rare moments when the truth matters to you, and you look for solutions instead of scapegoats, you should start by finding a mirror and spending some quality time.

Please, carry on.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 10:07AM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Apr 28, 2015, landmark wrote:
Submitted for your approval:

1) http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/

2) "A riot is the language of the unheard."--MLK jr. [/quote]
Have you seen this one?

http://www.salon.com/2015/04/28/baltimores_violent_protesters_are_right_smashing_police_cars_is_a_legitimate_political_strategy/ [/quote]

"A reasonable response." Wow.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 10:08AM)
[quote]
Is there a brilliant defense of *those* protesting from a prominent businessman?[/quote]
Probably not, since they have so much less cause to riot.

And still no one I notice has addressed the savage police violence and culture of Baltimore recorded in the Atlantic article. Here's the link again:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 10:10AM)
[quote]
Imagine taking your family out to what you assume would be a pleasant outing at the ball park, and, instead, dealing with this![/quote]
While you're imagining, imagine you are one of these people:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 10:19AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
As I've read through this thread, it's no surprise that the group of posters who share the same mindset, and worldview, have used this opportunity to justify their opinions.

You also see it on the Ferguson threads, the gay rights threads, the death penalty threads and virtually any thread where tolerance, understanding, and love for their fellow man are qualities that are most needed if these problems are going to be solved.

The sad part is how they think that no one sees the predjudice, bigotry, and hatred that is in their hearts. Their glee when these situations occur is thinly veiled, but obvious once you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt.

They use phrases like "I'm not saying that this is the way I think, but......." and "It's not all of them, of course, but........." and "Some of my best friends are black, gay etc. but......"

They'll never admit that it is precisely their mindset, which assumes superiority, and creates the divisions among us by default, that is the underlying cause of these problems.

So you folks keep looking for these situations to justify yourselves, but in those rare moments when the truth matters to you, and you look for solutions instead of scapegoats, you should start by finding a mirror and spending some quality time.

Please, carry on. [/quote]

That's a truly interesting perspective on the "underlying cause of these problems."
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 10:33AM)
What is truly interesting about that usual load of self-righteous trite?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 29, 2015 10:45AM)
How does the hurting of innocent people help the cause again? I am fuzzy on that part and how destroying your own neighborhoods helps.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Apr 29, 2015 10:55AM)
How does doing nothing help the cause?


From an individual point of view, it all seems pretty bleak. My guess is that the rioters mainly fall into two groups.

1. Those that are expressing their rage at injustice.
2. Those who are caught up in the storm and are quite simply riding out the experience.


Taking a long view, perhaps the central issue--institutional and ingrained injustice--will be addressed in some way. Time will tell.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 29, 2015 10:58AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
How does the hurting of innocent people help the cause again? I am fuzzy on that part and how destroying your own neighborhoods helps. [/quote]

What's happening in Baltimore is an effect.

Until the underlying causes are dealt with the effect will continue.

Putting aside the rioters and the looters, who are just wrong of course, what do you think is the "cause" the sincere protesters are marching for Danny, and do they have a legitimate complaint?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 29, 2015 10:59AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Imagine taking your family out to what you assume would be a pleasant outing at the ball park, and, instead, dealing with this![/quote]
While you're imagining, imagine you are one of these people:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/ [/quote]
Correct. For many people, *imagining* taking their family to the ball park is all they can afford.

If you want to exercise your imagination, educate yourself about people and places outside your own limited scope and then imagine yourself in their shoes.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 11:13AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How does doing nothing help the cause?


From an individual point of view, it all seems pretty bleak. My guess is that the rioters mainly fall into two groups.

1. Those that are expressing their rage at injustice.
2. Those who are caught up in the storm and are quite simply riding out the experience.


Taking a long view, perhaps the central issue--institutional and ingrained injustice--will be addressed in some way. Time will tell. [/quote]

Is that the dichotomy? Doing nothing or looting & torching a CVS?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 11:14AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
How does the hurting of innocent people help the cause again? I am fuzzy on that part and how destroying your own neighborhoods helps. [/quote]

What's happening in Baltimore is an effect.

Until the underlying causes are dealt with the effect will continue.

Putting aside the rioters and the looters, who are just wrong of course, what do you think is the "cause" the sincere protesters are marching for Danny, and do they have a legitimate complaint? [/quote]

I'm glad to see you think it's a no-brainer that the rioters and looters are just wrong. I wish that much of your perspective were unanimous.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 29, 2015 11:27AM)
Any lawyers here looking for work?

http://www.vocativ.com/news/188234/baltimore-riots-courts-arrests/

"Mass arrests during the Baltimore riots overburdened the local courts, forcing the public defender’s office to recruit private attorneys as reinforcements to represent hundreds of rioters, arsonists and protestors ... Maryland Public Defender Paul DeWolfe announced he could offer lawyers in private practice up to $50 an hour to assist with representing people arrested."

I think they need a good recruiting slogan, like (Be a public defender and) "Unleash your inner Saul".
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 29, 2015 11:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Imagine taking your family out to what you assume would be a pleasant outing at the ball park, and, instead, dealing with this![/quote]
While you're imagining, imagine you are one of these people:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/ [/quote]
Correct. For many people, *imagining* taking their family to the ball park is all they can afford.

If you want to exercise your imagination, educate yourself about people and places outside your own limited scope and then imagine yourself in their shoes. [/quote]

White or Black, if you are a person that has drive and ambition you can succeed in America. Your racial inequality reference has passed by. We have our first biracial president. If racial inequality and racism was still a major problem this would have never happened.

Please, those (whether white or black) that act like animals, lacking disrespect and show no personal self perseverance will never get ahead or be employable.

Imagine kids growing up in families that have a much greater percentage than 73% that have both parents to raise them. Imagine if the percentage of kids being born out of wedlock decreased.

Use your imagination to see how much better the kids would turn out. Imagine instead of rioting these particular people gathered to discuss what THEY need to do and change to ensure a better quality of life for themselves and their kids.

Just Imagine!!
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 29, 2015 11:39AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Randwill wrote:

If you want to exercise your imagination, educate yourself about people and places outside your own limited scope and then imagine yourself in their shoes. [/quote]

I don't have to exercise my imagination. My scope is anything but limited. I grew up in an all black neighborhood, raised by my mother in a single parent household, dirt poor. My mother was a waitress in a low income restaurant, seven days a week. After school, I washed dishes in that same restaurant.

I watched the Baltimore riots of 1968 from a white barroom in that black neighborhood. Buildings were on fire all around. When the cinder blocks came through the windows of that bar, my uncle and the other men opened fire. No one breached that bar, and it didn't burn.

I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers.

They taught me to fight and they showed this white boy the ways of the con...dice, cards, pool and life.

They took to me because I showed them magic tricks. They liked that. We were family.

They were both murdered before I was sixteen!

So, don't lecture me from a liberal perspective of someone who has never been there!

Take yourself out of your safe element and actually walk the walk...instead of just *imagining* it. Then, get back to me.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 11:48AM)
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 12:01PM)
And here I thought his point was poor circumstances don't justify criminal behavior or relegate one to a lack of success.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 29, 2015 12:08PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this, preach the loudest.

And, you have absolutely no clue, NONE.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 12:10PM)
No, his point was that his poor circumstances justify his justification of the Baltimore PD.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 12:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this. [/quote]
"any of this..."

Why don't you explain what you mean by "any of this." Spell it out, K.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 12:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
No, his point was that his poor circumstances justify his justification of the Baltimore PD. [/quote]

What gave you that impression?
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 29, 2015 12:20PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
And here I thought his point was poor circumstances don't justify criminal behavior or relegate one to a lack of success. [/quote]

Yeah. Seemed pretty clear to me to. But hey, that doesn't fit their agenda to which they are brainwashed in believing.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 29, 2015 12:42PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:

And here I thought his point was poor circumstances don't justify criminal behavior or relegate one to a lack of success. [/quote]
I thought his post was all about how poor circumstances forced him into criminal behavior. His words:

"I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers. They taught me to fight and they showed this white boy the ways of the con...dice, cards, pool and life."
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 12:44PM)
That too!
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 29, 2015 12:46PM)
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Apr 29, 2015 12:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this. [/quote]
"any of this..."

Why don't you explain what you mean by "any of this." Spell it out, K. [/quote]

If you are going to truncate my post, please do it without selective punctuation.

"Any of this" meaning actually having any experience in being poor, ridiculed, being beat up, having to work for school clothes (at ten years old), and being resentful of others, because of their better circumstance.

Feeling the heat and choking on the smoke from buildings burning around you, and being scared for your mother and uncle...at eleven years old (1968 riots).

Seeing the dead bodies of your friends in alleys because of bad decisions in crap games.

Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks.

Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed.

Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning.

I lived it...and got out of it.

RIP, Mom.

Thank you, my beloved United States Army!

This is part of my "any of this."
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 29, 2015 12:55PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action. [/quote]

He also clearly stated, ""I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers."

How could that tutelage possibly have enabled him to survive if he didn't put it to use?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 01:08PM)
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Nathan_Rothschild.jpg[/img]
"Buy when there is blood in the streets"
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 29, 2015 03:39PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How does doing nothing help the cause? [/quote]

Sorry John but this happens to be the biggest disingenuous load of crap ever.

Who advocated doing nothing? I certainly never once even hinted that this was the solution.

You put it out there in response to me asking how hurting innocent people would help. Then in an obvious attempt to equate the two you put this up as if I actually advocated doing nothing. Fact is people ARE out there hurting innocent people. So this is a load and you know full well it is a load. But you want to try to sneak it past the goalie.

I have said MANY times the the underlying social causes need to be dealt with. I have said many times that until we do that we are treating only a symptom not the disease. That helps nobody. So to ascribe a position of doing nothing being helpful to me is just disingenuous. I never said or implied to do nothing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 29, 2015 03:42PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
How does the hurting of innocent people help the cause again? I am fuzzy on that part and how destroying your own neighborhoods helps. [/quote]

What's happening in Baltimore is an effect.

Until the underlying causes are dealt with the effect will continue.

Putting aside the rioters and the looters, who are just wrong of course, what do you think is the "cause" the sincere protesters are marching for Danny, and do they have a legitimate complaint? [/quote]

I like the way you phrased this question. YES they have a complaint. YES there is an issue and I have said many times it is an underlying social problem that needs to be dealt with. Also the perception that everyone is against them in the system. ANY system that has a group who thinks (Rightly or wrongly.) that the system is stacked against them and their experience tends to back this up is a MAJOR flaw and needs to be dealt with.

Now also the race peddlers crying racism when it does not exist are a MAJOR part of the problem. Politicians who use poor people as votes and never help them are a MAJOR part of the problem.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 29, 2015 03:47PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Imagine taking your family out to what you assume would be a pleasant outing at the ball park, and, instead, dealing with this![/quote]
While you're imagining, imagine you are one of these people:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-brutality-of-police-culture-in-baltimore/391158/ [/quote]
Correct. For many people, *imagining* taking their family to the ball park is all they can afford.

If you want to exercise your imagination, educate yourself about people and places outside your own limited scope and then imagine yourself in their shoes. [/quote]

White or Black, if you are a person that has drive and ambition you can succeed in America. Your racial inequality reference has passed by. We have our first biracial president. If racial inequality and racism was still a major problem this would have never happened.

Please, those (whether white or black) that act like animals, lacking disrespect and show no personal self perseverance will never get ahead or be employable.

Imagine kids growing up in families that have a much greater percentage than 73% that have both parents to raise them. Imagine if the percentage of kids being born out of wedlock decreased.

Use your imagination to see how much better the kids would turn out. Imagine instead of rioting these particular people gathered to discuss what THEY need to do and change to ensure a better quality of life for themselves and their kids.

Just Imagine!! [/quote]

You make sort of a false comparison. The rioters and looters have nothing to do with biracial presidents. Racial inequity still exists. Real or perceived it is a problem.

It is not as easy to see being white though. I do not see it as much as I am white. But I do not deny it either. (OR exaggerate it.) Denying it does not make it go away though.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 04:15PM)
All human beings are criminals.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 29, 2015 05:05PM)
"I tried to believe in Baltimore, but the despair was too much"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/i-tried-to-believe-in-baltimore-but-the-despair-was-too-much/article24149659/

Sarah Richards is a Canadian freelance writer and radio producer in Baltimore. She writes:

One of the first times I visited Baltimore was for an article I was writing about teenage girls and their daydreams for Seventeen Magazine. Most of the interviews I conducted were in the Inner Harbour, a quaint, touristy area downtown. I interviewed a young woman who worked at a fast food outlet, as well as several people walking around.

A few years later, I moved to Baltimore with my husband. He got a job at Johns Hopkins Hospital, which I've heard a few people half-jokingly refer to as 'the Plantation.' The university and hospital that make up Johns Hopkins are in many ways this city’s real government – the biggest employer, home to many scientific breakthroughs and the last great connection Baltimore has to its Halcyon days.

The first week I was there, the maintenance man who took care of the apartment my husband and I were renting told me that he used to live in the city until all of the 'niggers' moved in.

As the months passed, I did stories that took me to different neighbourhoods in Baltimore. I learned where the poor people lived, where the blacks lived and where the whites lived. I learned how these neighbourhoods did not mix. I saw streets in which every single home had fallen victim to abandonment and blight, with boarded up windows, crumbling bricks ... save for a single hold-out, perched in the middle of the street or almost seeming to hang on at the end of it. In the poorest neighbourhoods, people thought I was an undercover police officer, not a journalist.

I also learned where the wealthy people lived – many live several miles outside of the city, in hidden-away areas.

Our apartment looked on to one of the oldest parks in America. We would watch the prostitutes walk the street, and once saw a man repeatedly smash a woman’s head on his car dashboard over a cigarette.

Still, we wanted to believe - after all, that was long the city's motto, 'believe' - so we bought a house a few years later. There, we watched from our deck as a drug addict washed his syringe out in a muddy pool in our laneway. Later, down the street, I saw the Korean corner store owner chase two kids out of his store with his hand on a pistol tucked in his waistband. On two separate occasions, I caught the same man twice breaking in to my neighbour’s residence. The house next door was home to several young women working for Teach for America. On the second burglary attempt, I confronted the man in the laneway. He was holding a shoulder-bag of my neighbour’s goodies in one hand and a flat screen TV in the other.

By then, we owned a 90-pound German shepherd, and I'd leashed him and brought him with me. I told the man that if he did not put my neighbours' possessions down, I’d let my dog on him.

'I'll slice your dog,' he said.

Fortunately, he dropped the TV and the police were able to apprehend him a few blocks away. Thomas Rivera went to jail for more than a year. Even more fortunate: I was eligible for a witness safety program that alerted my parents in Alberta when Rivera would be getting out of jail. Better still: I had moved by the time he was released.

I call it my seven year tour of duty. My husband and I moved out to the county, in one of those hidden neighbourhoods that nobody in Baltimore City - at least nobody in its most devastated areas - probably even knows exist. I always wonder what those people would do if they knew of the beautiful neighbourhoods and university-like private schools that are only a 15-minute car ride from their Third World existence. Perhaps we're getting a very small taste of that this week.

Last year, Baltimore lost, yet again, more residents. It’s basically been losing residents for six decades. They leave because they're tired of the crime, because there are more jobs elsewhere, because there are better public schools elsewhere. And they leave because they can.

I left because I hated what it was doing to my mind. I hated the desperation and depression in front of me. I hated having to be aware of my surroundings while walking on the street. I hated seeing children who knew they had no future. And I hated watching our neighbour chase barefoot after her boyfriend, who had recently gotten out of jail and walked out of the house one day with her baby girl. She was screaming and hitting him in the middle of the street, trying to rip the baby out of his arms.

I could tell you about the wonderful people giving their lives to make that city work. The two old nuns who ran an after-school program across from our house that quite literally saved lives. Some I did stories on, like the refugee from Rwanda who on a shoe-string budget was helping other refugees settle in Baltimore. Or the woman who had opened up a shelter for battered Muslim women in her own home.

There are many of them in Baltimore, but are there enough? I'm ashamed to say I wasn't one of them.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 06:18PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How does doing nothing help the cause?


From an individual point of view, it all seems pretty bleak. My guess is that the rioters mainly fall into two groups.

1. Those that are expressing their rage at injustice.
2. Those who are caught up in the storm and are quite simply riding out the experience.


Taking a long view, perhaps the central issue--institutional and ingrained injustice--will be addressed in some way. Time will tell. [/quote]

Is that the dichotomy? Doing nothing or looting & torching a CVS? [/quote]
Now you understand the MLK quote.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 06:22PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this. [/quote]
"any of this..."

Why don't you explain what you mean by "any of this." Spell it out, K. [/quote]

If you are going to truncate my post, please do it without selective punctuation.

"Any of this" meaning actually having any experience in being poor, ridiculed, being beat up, having to work for school clothes (at ten years old), and being resentful of others, because of their better circumstance.

Feeling the heat and choking on the smoke from buildings burning around you, and being scared for your mother and uncle...at eleven years old (1968 riots).

Seeing the dead bodies of your friends in alleys because of bad decisions in crap games.

Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks.

Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed.

Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning.

I lived it...and got out of it.

RIP, Mom.

Thank you, my beloved United States Army!

This is part of my "any of this." [/quote]

It's an interesting, maybe even touching story, Kabbalah, even allowing for the insulting personal assumptions.
And completely irrelevant to the thread.
Unless you are walking around in blackface, you have as much experience growing up Black as I do.
And that's what this thread is about. People are rioting in Baltimore because they feel oppressed as Black people.
You're entitled to your opinion--but your opinion has no more value than anyone else's, with or without your hanging out with some hustlers.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 07:19PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
How does doing nothing help the cause?


From an individual point of view, it all seems pretty bleak. My guess is that the rioters mainly fall into two groups.

1. Those that are expressing their rage at injustice.
2. Those who are caught up in the storm and are quite simply riding out the experience.


Taking a long view, perhaps the central issue--institutional and ingrained injustice--will be addressed in some way. Time will tell. [/quote]

Is that the dichotomy? Doing nothing or looting & torching a CVS? [/quote]
Now you understand the MLK quote. [/quote]


I'm not sure I do, or, alternatively, I'm not sure I understand it as you understand it. But if I do, I don't agree with it.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 07:20PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this. [/quote]
"any of this..."

Why don't you explain what you mean by "any of this." Spell it out, K. [/quote]

If you are going to truncate my post, please do it without selective punctuation.

"Any of this" meaning actually having any experience in being poor, ridiculed, being beat up, having to work for school clothes (at ten years old), and being resentful of others, because of their better circumstance.

Feeling the heat and choking on the smoke from buildings burning around you, and being scared for your mother and uncle...at eleven years old (1968 riots).

Seeing the dead bodies of your friends in alleys because of bad decisions in crap games.

Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks.

Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed.

Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning.

I lived it...and got out of it.

RIP, Mom.

Thank you, my beloved United States Army!

This is part of my "any of this." [/quote]

It's an interesting, maybe even touching story, Kabbalah, even allowing for the insulting personal assumptions.
And completely irrelevant to the thread.
Unless you are walking around in blackface, you have as much experience growing up Black as I do.
And that's what this thread is about. People are rioting in Baltimore because they feel oppressed as Black people.
You're entitled to your opinion--but your opinion has no more value than anyone else's, with or without your hanging out with some hustlers. [/quote]


Does it have less value?
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 29, 2015 07:38PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action. [/quote]

He also clearly stated, ""I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers."

How could that tutelage possibly have enabled him to survive if he didn't put it to use? [/quote]


Well the first and most logical explanation is that he avoided being conned and hustled in an environment that was rampant with this sort of thing because he knew of them in advance. Knowledge is power. Although I mentioned it is the most logical. It seems that logic often evades you as you are blinded by agenda.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 29, 2015 07:42PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action. [/quote]

He also clearly stated, ""I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers."

How could that tutelage possibly have enabled him to survive if he didn't put it to use? [/quote]

Well the first and most logical explanation is that he avoided being conned and hustled in an environment that was rampant with this sort of thing because he knew of them in advance. Knowledge is power. Although I mentioned it is the most logical. It seems that logic often evades you as you are blinded by agenda. [/quote]
I guess you missed Kabbalah's next post, in which he wrote about "Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks. Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed. Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning."
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 29, 2015 07:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, landmark wrote:
And your point is...? You grew up in a tough neighborhood, so it's okay if criminal thugs use their police badges as cover?

Talk about making excuses. [/quote]

That post had nothing to do with the police.

What it had to do with, is pointing out that folks like you, who have no real world/life experience in any of this. [/quote]
"any of this..."

Why don't you explain what you mean by "any of this." Spell it out, K. [/quote]

If you are going to truncate my post, please do it without selective punctuation.

"Any of this" meaning actually having any experience in being poor, ridiculed, being beat up, having to work for school clothes (at ten years old), and being resentful of others, because of their better circumstance.

Feeling the heat and choking on the smoke from buildings burning around you, and being scared for your mother and uncle...at eleven years old (1968 riots).

Seeing the dead bodies of your friends in alleys because of bad decisions in crap games.

Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks.

Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed.

Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning.

I lived it...and got out of it.

RIP, Mom.

Thank you, my beloved United States Army!

This is part of my "any of this." [/quote]

It's an interesting, maybe even touching story, Kabbalah, even allowing for the insulting personal assumptions.
And completely irrelevant to the thread.
Unless you are walking around in blackface, you have as much experience growing up Black as I do.
And that's what this thread is about. People are rioting in Baltimore because they feel oppressed as Black people.
You're entitled to your opinion--but your opinion has no more value than anyone else's, with or without your hanging out with some hustlers. [/quote]


Does it have less value? [/quote]
He seems to be making some kind of claim of special knowledge pertinent to this issue based on his personal experience.
Meanwhile, the voices of many who actually have pertinent personal experiences are discounted in the media and on this board.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 07:51PM)
Fair enough, but I think "People are rioting in Baltimore because they feel oppressed as Black people" (as opposed to, for instance, "because they're opportunistic") is also a claim of special knowledge.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 29, 2015 07:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action. [/quote]

He also clearly stated, ""I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers."

How could that tutelage possibly have enabled him to survive if he didn't put it to use? [/quote]

Well the first and most logical explanation is that he avoided being conned and hustled in an environment that was rampant with this sort of thing because he knew of them in advance. Knowledge is power. Although I mentioned it is the most logical. It seems that logic often evades you as you are blinded by agenda. [/quote]



I guess you missed Kabbalah's next post, in which he wrote about "Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks. Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed. Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning." [/quote]

Please explain...how this statement of yours lends itself to not being conned or hustled.

Your statement: I guess you missed Kabbalah's next post, in which he wrote about "Having handcuffs put on so tight that your thumbs are numb for weeks. Sliding around in the back of paddy wagons with those tight cuffs biting in your wrists. All of my arrests were before seat belts were installed. Nights in lockup wondering if you were going to be recogged in the morning."
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 07:52PM)
The claim that pee who disagree with NYC Twister's position on the issue a tree the underlying cause of the rioting is REALLY a claim of specialized knowledge.
Message: Posted by: balducci (Apr 29, 2015 08:03PM)
Aces, I don't have the patience to explain it to you in detail. Go back and look at the RNK post Bob was responding to, and also the posts before that. Like the one of mine that RNK responded to. RNK was suggesting that Kabbalah used his new found criminal knowledge only for good. That Kabbalah says he was handcuffed, arrested, and spent nights in lockup strongly suggests otherwise. Sure, he almost certainly ALSO used the knowledge to avoid not being conned or hustled. But there was more to it than that and that is what Bob and I were talking about, and that is what RNK's post was in response to.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (Apr 29, 2015 08:47PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, tommy wrote:
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Nathan_Rothschild.jpg[/img]
"Buy when there is blood in the streets" [/quote]

It may be that this time there won't be anything to buy that isn't too costly.

No matter how much money you have.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 29, 2015 08:53PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, balducci wrote:
Aces, I don't have the patience to explain it to you in detail. Go back and look at the RNK post Bob was responding to, and also the posts before that. Like the one of mine that RNK responded to. RNK was suggesting that Kabbalah used his new found criminal knowledge only for good. That Kabbalah says he was handcuffed, arrested, and spent nights in lockup strongly suggests otherwise. Sure, he almost certainly ALSO used the knowledge to avoid not being conned or hustled. But there was more to it than that and that is what Bob and I were talking about, and that is what RNK's post was in response to. [/quote]


Strongly suggests otherwise. Tried and convicted. Great system there you have there in Canada. What more is there. Where is it? Or is it a figment of your imagination? Is there proof of this "more to it" somewhere?

Ha, ha you don't have the patience to explain it to me but you want me to go back and check the RNK posts, that Bob was responding to and the posts before that. So you want me to read the whole topic in order to understand your one post and decipher it to your way of thinking? Yea that is going to happen. NOT. That makes as much sense as to the explanation of the Big Bang Theory. First there was nothing then there was something. And some of you guys except that explanation. :) Not trying to derail the topic. Just saying your suggestion makes makes as much sense. That is all.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 10:56PM)
Looting can be a lucrative enterprise. It more or less goes hand in hand with destruction and chaos in all its forms. Stock market crashes, wars, riots, natural disasters and the like are all offer opportunities. An untold amount of looting went on in the blitz and the black market goods were everywhere and everyone was buying them. That was before any black people were here by the way. Look at any uprising and you see people running stealing whatever. So never mind what is good or bad, our question is, what’s new?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 29, 2015 11:17PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, tommy wrote:
never mind what is good or bad, our question is, what’s new? [/quote]


My curling team won the most recent league championship.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 29, 2015 11:22PM)
Cool! I have never had a go but I do like a game of bowls.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 29, 2015 11:23PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
...
Ha, ha you don't have the patience to explain it to me but you want me to go back and check the RNK posts, that Bob was responding to and the posts before that. [/quote]

Of course no one expects you to read and understand a discussion before you respond. Your usual responses show that you rarely bother.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 29, 2015 11:29PM)
Yea responding to others posts while they are responding to another while they have a fight going from another thread is fairly time consuming.

I guess a smiley face icon would go here if I ever used them.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 30, 2015 12:08AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Fair enough, but I think "People are rioting in Baltimore because they feel oppressed as Black people" (as opposed to, for instance, "because they're opportunistic") is also a claim of special knowledge. [/quote]
Those who hold those two opinions are not stating their claims are based on special personal experience; presumably those claims are verifiable through various sorts of evidence. Or not.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 30, 2015 12:10AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The claim that pee who disagree with NYC Twister's position on the issue a tree the underlying cause of the rioting is REALLY a claim of specialized knowledge. [/quote]
You gotta re-post that one--I haven't a clue :)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 30, 2015 12:37AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
The claim that pee who disagree with NYC Twister's position on the issue a tree the underlying cause of the rioting is REALLY a claim of specialized knowledge. [/quote]
You gotta re-post that one--I haven't a clue :) [/quote]

LOL I don't blame you! "Pee" = "people"; "a tree" = "are."
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 30, 2015 01:24AM)
Oh, okay. See my answer above. And throw in Occam for good measure: when people riot, it's generally more parsimonious to assume they are very upset about something. It would be good to listen to what they have to say about the matter. Then one can objectively go through evidence and see if those complaints make sense.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 30, 2015 07:13AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, RNK wrote:
His post states how they TAUGHT him the ways. Says nothing about that he acted and put "those ways" into action. [/quote]

He also clearly stated, ""I survived by coming under the tutelage of two black hustlers."

How could that tutelage possibly have enabled him to survive if he didn't put it to use? [/quote]

Your a lawyer Bob. You clearly are speculating.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Apr 30, 2015 07:17AM)
Interesting. Another prisoner in the van claims that Freddie was trying to hurt himself after he violently tried to refuse being placed in the van. Go figure. I say, "No- can't be- it has to be those crooked cops!".
Message: Posted by: 0pus (Apr 30, 2015 08:05AM)
Have we gotten anything like a definitive/official response to what went on? If we have, a reference would be helpful for me.

Because what I can see right now seems to indicate (and please correct me if I have this wrong) that (1) a suspect was in police custody, (2) that suspect's neck was broken while in police custody, (3) that suspect was denied medical aid, and (4) that suspect died as the result of the failure to render medical assistance.

These factors have resulted in protests in Baltimore, which have turned violent.

Is that what we have? Is there anything further? Anything helpful to understand what has been going on? I have to say that a lot of what has been contained in this thread seems more rooted in prejudices (from all corners of the political spectrum) than in verifiable facts.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 30, 2015 09:48AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2015, acesover wrote:
...
Ha, ha you don't have the patience to explain it to me but you want me to go back and check the RNK posts, that Bob was responding to and the posts before that. [/quote]

Of course no one expects you to read and understand a discussion before you respond. Your usual responses show that you rarely bother. [/quote]


You asked a question. I responded to it. You did not like my answer because it was truthful. So you bring up and say why don't I read a post by so and so who said something about that a while back which had nothing to do with your question. Are you always that discombobulated? By the way do you remember what I said a while back? I thought not. Well go back and read it .
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Apr 30, 2015 09:50AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, RNK wrote:
Interesting. Another prisoner in the van claims that Freddie was trying to hurt himself after he violently tried to refuse being placed in the van. Go figure. I say, "No- can't be- it has to be those crooked cops!". [/quote]

The prisoner you are referring to was in the van for no more than five minutes with Gray. He was separated from him by a metal partition and couldn't see him. The original police report stated that the prisoner said that Gray was "mostly quiet."

This new story, based on an affidavit written by a police investigator and anonymously leaked to the press, runs contrary to their own previously released information.

But if you want to believe the nonesense that Gray broke his own neck, what can I say?

You might, though, just consider looking at the full story as it stands now, after a local Baltimore journalist cast serious doubts on the information contained in the "leak" to the Washington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/doubts-freddie-gray-injured-himself_n_7177356.html

And you apparently haven't watched the video tape. Gray DID NOT violently resist getting into the van. His legs weren't working and the cops just clearly picked his limp body up and pushed him into the van. He offered NO resistance.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Apr 30, 2015 10:34AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Have we gotten anything like a definitive/official response to what went on? If we have, a reference would be helpful for me.

Because what I can see right now seems to indicate (and please correct me if I have this wrong) that (1) a suspect was in police custody, (2) that suspect's neck was broken while in police custody, (3) that suspect was denied medical aid, and (4) that suspect died as the result of the failure to render medical assistance.

These factors have resulted in protests in Baltimore, which have turned violent.

Is that what we have? Is there anything further? Anything helpful to understand what has been going on? I have to say that a lot of what has been contained in this thread seems more rooted in prejudices (from all corners of the political spectrum) than in verifiable facts. [/quote]

There is also a prior context of police interactions with residents. See my links above.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 30, 2015 11:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, landmark wrote:
Oh, okay. See my answer above. And throw in Occam for good measure: when people riot, it's generally more parsimonious to assume they are very upset about something. It would be good to listen to what they have to say about the matter. Then one can objectively go through evidence and see if those complaints make sense. [/quote]

I disagree with your analysis, but it's well put.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 30, 2015 11:32AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, RNK wrote:
Interesting. Another prisoner in the van claims that Freddie was trying to hurt himself after he violently tried to refuse being placed in the van. Go figure. I say, "No- can't be- it has to be those crooked cops!". [/quote]

The prisoner you are referring to was in the van for no more than five minutes with Gray. He was separated from him by a metal partition and couldn't see him. The original police report stated that the prisoner said that Gray was "mostly quiet."

This new story, based on an affidavit written by a police investigator and anonymously leaked to the press, runs contrary to their own previously released information.

But if you want to believe the nonesense that Gray broke his own neck, what can I say?

You might, though, just consider looking at the full story as it stands now, after a local Baltimore journalist cast serious doubts on the information contained in the "leak" to the Washington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/doubts-freddie-gray-injured-himself_n_7177356.html

And you apparently haven't watched the video tape. Gray DID NOT violently resist getting into the van. His legs weren't working and the cops just clearly picked his limp body up and pushed him into the van. He offered NO resistance. [/quote]


To me it definitely sounds like the second prisoner is looking for a break. I do have a feeling that there was some negligence by police. I do not believe they wanted to kill Gray. Also I do not feel that all of the violence that has taken place is justified either. There is no doubt that the destruction caused was caused with malice a forethought and not an accident. I also believe that those responsible for the carnage have no interest in justice. All they want is some white cops blamed and to loot and destroy. They have no interest in what any investigation shows. All they want is blame put on the PD. Nothing else will satisfy them. However even if the PD is found guilty and the officers are punished. I am sure the punishment will not be sufficient in their eyes. It is a lose, lose situation.

Also as stated before justice is the last thing on their mind. Just want to put a hurt on some white people and loot and destroy. Do they have the right to demonstrate. Yes, it is their right. Do they have reason or the right to loot and destroy? NO. There is no ifs ands or buts. The answer is NO. They should be sought out and punished and if resisting arrest should be restrained for their actions. Of course we will have to find velvet hand cuffs and cushioned seats for their transportation to jail. Then provide them with a lawyer so their mama can say my son is a good boy. Then ask mama and the son why is he here. Because they answer, "you hate black people". And it starts all over again. An endless loop.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 30, 2015 11:35AM)
150 businesses damaged or destroyed. I wonder how long it will be before people complain about vacant commercial properties, the lack of economic development, the unavailability of goods and services, and are told in response that it's due to corporate racism. Any venture capitalists here ready to open a retail facility to replace CVS?
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Apr 30, 2015 12:32PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
150 businesses damaged or destroyed. I wonder how long it will be before people complain about vacant commercial properties, the lack of economic development, the unavailability of goods and services, and are told in response that it's due to corporate racism. Any venture capitalists here ready to open a retail facility to replace CVS? [/quote]
If their were 150 businesses doing well there that were destroyed, it seems reasonable to expect that businesses will replace or rebuild there. It's not like property-destroying riots are a regular occurrence.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 30, 2015 12:43PM)
I wonder if it was normal practice for the Gestapo to use brutal excessive force to break a victim’s spine and to throw the broken body into a vehicle to die, followed by a standard corrupt cover up to get away with it?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (Apr 30, 2015 01:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
150 businesses damaged or destroyed. I wonder how long it will be before people complain about vacant commercial properties, the lack of economic development, the unavailability of goods and services, and are told in response that it's due to corporate racism. Any venture capitalists here ready to open a retail facility to replace CVS? [/quote]
If their were 150 businesses doing well there that were destroyed, it seems reasonable to expect that businesses will replace or rebuild there. It's not like property-destroying riots are a regular occurrence. [/quote]


It may seem reasonable to expect that, but I don't think that's the way it works in the real world. The rebuilding/replacing can take years or decades. They're just getting something going in L.A. at the site of a property that's been vacant since the Rodney King riots.
Message: Posted by: acesover (Apr 30, 2015 01:09PM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2015, tommy wrote:
I wonder if it was normal practice for the Gestapo to use brutal excessive force to break a victim’s spine and to throw the broken body into a vehicle to die, followed by a standard corrupt cover up to get away with it? [/quote]

Have you read page 4 or Police Procedures? Check it out. Excessive force is definitely OK, and breaking spines is on the "to do list" along with cover ups. Any more silly questions?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 30, 2015 01:14PM)
Or did the Gestapo merely strangle the victims on the street and shoot them in the back?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Apr 30, 2015 05:40PM)
And so it begins...
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (Apr 30, 2015 06:24PM)
Godwin's law is still going stong after all these years.
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 07:59AM)
In an effort to answer the question I asked yesterday - namely, what do we know - I think that this summary from NBC seems to be pretty factual

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/baltimore-unrest/timeline-freddie-gray-case-arrest-protests-n351156

[quote]
Freddie Gray: From Baltimore Arrest to Protests, a Timeline of the Case
By Erik Ortiz

With protests spreading beyond Baltimore's borders, the name of 25-year-old black man Freddie Gray is being invoked in nationwide calls for police reform.

Gray suffered a spinal injury while in police custody and later died. What led to his arrest - and the events afterward - remain under investigation. Police have released some information during news conferences based on officer interviews and reports. Here's a timeline:

April 12

8:39 a.m.: Four police officers on bicycles at the corner of North Avenue and Mount Street in west Baltimore make "eye contact" with Gray and another man, and they begin pursuing Gray after he "fled unprovoked," officials and charging documents say. (It's not clear whether police stopped Gray solely because he ran.)

8:40 - 8:46 a.m.: Gray is caught and gives up without force in an incident recorded on cellphone video. A police van is called, and Gray asks for an inhaler. Gray is on the ground and is then placed inside the van after his legs appear to go limp, witnesses say. Gray is heard screaming, and the van's driver says he is "acting irate in the back," according to police. The van stops so Gray can be placed in leg irons.

8:47 - 9:23 a.m.: The van makes a second stop for a reason not immediately known. Police determine this stop based on a review of closed-circuit and privately owned cameras. As the van makes its way to the Baltimore Police Department's Western District, the driver calls for a unit to check on Gray. Before getting to the station, the van makes a third stop to pick up a second prisoner. The second prisoner later says he heard Gray briefly making noise on the other side of a metal barrier.

9:24 a.m.: At the police station, a medic is called. Paramedics arrive and provide care for 21 minutes before Gray is taken to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center.

11:25 p.m.: Police issue a summons against Gray for possessing a switchblade knife, which officers at the scene say they noticed in his pants pocket, according to charging documents.

April 13

Baltimore police hold a news conference about the arrest and defend their actions. "At no time - and I've seen the video a number of times - did I see a use of force at that moment, but again, the video is a portion of the incident," says Deputy Police Commissioner Jerry Rodriguez.

April 14

Gray undergoes double surgery on his spine.

April 15-18

Gray remains in a coma.

April 18

The first protest is held. Hundreds of people gather in front of the Western District station, put their hands up and turn their backs to police. Gray's stepfather tells the crowd: "If this happens to him, it could happen to any of you."

April 19

Gray is pronounced dead at the hospital at 7 a.m. As protests resume, a lawyer for the Gray family releases a statement: "His take-down and arrest without probable cause occurred under a police video camera, which taped everything including the police dragging and throwing Freddie into a police vehicle while he screamed in pain."

April 20

At a news conference, Baltimore officials announce that six police officers are suspended but that they deny using excessive force during Gray's arrest.

April 21

The Justice Department announces a federal investigation into Gray's death. Protests continue, and Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony Batts says he's pleased that they have been peaceful: "I think that they're sharing their thoughts, they're sharing their concerns, and I hear them and I understand."

April 23

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan deploys the state police to Baltimore as protests grow. At least two protesters are arrested in the afternoon.

April 24

City officials hold a news conference, and Batts acknowledges that police should have given Gray care sooner instead of waiting more than 40 minutes after his arrest for a medic to arrive: "We know our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner multiple times."

He also revealed that Gray was not wearing a seat belt while he was being transported.

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake says she met with protesters earlier in the day over their concerns and in anticipation of more demonstrations the next day.

April 25

More than 1,000 people gather for a protest and march toward City Hall. Police say they arrested 12 people - "pockets of individuals causing disturbances" - after rocks are thrown at cops and windows are smashed near Camden Yards. Five officers suffer minor injuries. A group of juveniles also looted a 7-Eleven, police say.

April 26

Gray's wake is held. Inside the coffin is a pillow embossed with his picture and the quotation, "Peace, Y'all."

April 27

Gray's funeral is held. Mourners at New Shiloh Baptist Church jam into a second-floor balcony, prompting the church to open an overflow room with a live feed of the funeral.

That night, Baltimore explodes into violence. Cars are set on fire, cinder blocks are thrown at police and stores are looted across the city. Hogan declares a state of emergency as state police and the National Guard are called in.

April 28

Mayor Rawlings-Blake announces a weeklong city-wide curfew beginning at 10 o'clock each night until 5 o'clock the following morning.

April 29

Police say their initial report on Gray's death would not be released publicly to protect the integrity of the inquiry but would be handed over to the state's attorney for Baltimore, Marilyn Mosby. Meanwhile, dozens of people arrested during the week's unrest are released because police are unable to complete their paperwork in time.

Later that night, The Washington Post publishes a story that states the other prisoner in the van with Gray told police that Gray may have been trying to harm himself. But NBC station WBAL of Baltimore reports that medical evidence made available does not suggest that Gray was able to harm himself while in police custody.

Protests commence in several cities nationwide, including Denver, San Diego and New York City.

April 30

Batts says the police investigation of Gray's death has been given to the state's attorney. He praises and thanks Baltimoreans for observing the curfew peacefully but says it will remain in place through the following weekend.

don'te Allen, the second man in the police van with Gray, tells WBAL that "all I heard was a little banging for like four seconds" from the other side of the barrier separating them on April 12. His account differs from the one ascribed to him in the Post report.

Nationwide rallies continued, with notable protests in Baltimore, Philadelphia and Cincinnati.[/quote]


I think that this is an even-handed summary. The facts - by themselves - do not support a pretty picture of the police.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:32AM)
Your April 14th entry mentions an operation on Grey's spine.

Nowhere is it mentioned why that operation took place, or what Grey's condition was when he was entered into the hospital.

These are key facts missing in your otherwise admirable report.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 08:33AM)
None of which are facts nor evidence in a legal sense. What you have there is news stories which may or not be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Know that facts are what you make of the evidence, not we mind you but you. If there was jury to try this case and you were on that jury then only know what comes out of witness box and that is the evidence and you decide the facts another juror might disagree with you. Such is the nature of what you claim “we” know.
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 09:00AM)
I am just saying that this is the best summary of "what happened" without inordinate amounts of spinning, coloring or slanting to promote an agenda. Although I have not conducted an independent validation of the statements made, nor has any official report been released (itself a "fact" in the overall mix, which may be meaningful and may not), I am only looking for credible information in order to form my own opinion.

So, for example, it would appear that when the officers "made eye contact" with Gray, I think it would be a reasonable conclusion that Gray did not have a "spinal" injury. I am not sure why Gray's legs "appear to go limp," but it would appear to have happened when his was brought to the ground by the police - and the loss of the use of one's legs is something that would be consistent with a spinal injury.

I am not saying that this is material that could be introduced into evidence, or would be sufficient to convict anyone, but it is helpful to me in understanding this incident.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2015 09:01AM)
They are indeed not letting out facts. All that means is they are not letting out facts. It does not in any way indicate what those facts are. To speculate is only to further an agenda.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 1, 2015 10:15AM)
Yep, Danny! Agendas ARE being furthered! One might be shocked at where it is really coming from! We live in interesting times. All is NOT as it seems. There are those who have agendas we cannot imagine...

Doug
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 10:16AM)
Arrest warrants issued for six officers in the Freddie Gray case.
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 10:24AM)
Certainly, those with an agenda have no qualms about speculation in furtherance of that agenda.

But failure to release facts surely invites speculation, speculation that will undoubtedly be predominantly to the effect that the controllers of the information have good intentions.

And this also contributes to the volatility of the situation. The police are being criticized for their handling of the Gray arrest/death, the same police force is investigating the situation, the same police force is controlling the release of any information, the same police force is attempting to quell the violence of the demonstrations. Doesn't this look like the cards are stacked in favor of the police?

The state police have been asked to step in. And even the federal government is getting involved (which, I think, would only be the case if somerwhere in the federal government someone decided there was a likelihood that civil rights were being violated).

So failure to put out information increases the volatility.

Also consider that the cliche, "Justice delayed is justice denied." There is a reason that this is a cliche - it is really a truism. No "official" information and delays in any perceivable action further exacerbates the situation.

Placed in the context of real and perceived acts of police brutality and institutional racism, is there any wonder that Baltimore has erupted in violence?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 10:30AM)
The cause of "Justice" is generally furthered by investigations, which take time. But if what one is looking for is a predetermined outcome regardlesss of the facts, that shouldn't take hardly any time at all.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 1, 2015 10:41AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Certainly, those with an agenda have no qualms about speculation in furtherance of that agenda.
[/quote]

Thing is, it ain't just about Baltimore! Or Ferguson! Ask yourself, who profits from this kinda thing? And [i]how?[/i] Protests have spread around the world. Does it stop? Will it? How? Then what? Who is "the hero" then? Those questions will be answered...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2015 10:42AM)
Absolutely Lobo.
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 10:49AM)
Dougini,

I don't know how to take your questions.

Are you questioning the motivation behind the protests?

Do you think that it is impossible that the protests are political speech - objections to perceived racism or classism permeating a governmental institution resulting in at best unfair and at worst fatal treatment at the hands of an institution purported to protect the citizenry?
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 1, 2015 11:15AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Arrest warrants issued for six officers in the Freddie Gray case. [/quote]
"City State's Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers"

"City State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby says Freddie Gray received his critical injuries in Baltimore police custody and has charged all six officers involved in his death."

"The officers are being charged with a number of counts of manslaughter, assault and misconduct. One officer will even be charged with a count of murder."

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/05/01/city-states-attorney-says-freddie-grays-arrest-illegal-has-enough-evidence-for-charges/

Response:

https://cbsbaltimore.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/letter-to-sa-mosby-3.pdf
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 1, 2015 11:27AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Dougini,

Do you think that it is impossible that the protests are political speech - objections to perceived racism or classism permeating a governmental institution resulting in at best unfair and at worst fatal treatment at the hands of an institution purported to protect the citizenry? [/quote]

My question is why this is happening in the first place. Someone is [i]perpetuating[/i] this "perceived racism". The anger at the way blacks are treated by certain police has been simmering for a long time. Has anything changed? Perception, maybe? And just who [i]is it[/i] that is perpetuating this "perceived racism and classism"? Shouldn't we be WAY past that by now?

It ain't just Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson! No. We have an enemy within our OWN government! A dark elite with an agenda that will affect the world! This is just one strand of the spider web. No good will come of this...

Doug
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 11:50AM)
That is good. What ought to happen in these sort of cases really, is what might happen to any individual. The police on seeing the film should have arrested the police involved right away on suspicion of murder or whatever. They should have all been locked up and separated first so that they could not collude and concoct a story. Then they should have been questioned vigorously. Then the police or the prosecution should have looked at the so called “evidence” and decided whether there was enough evidence to charge any of them with an offence. That could all be done in a matter of hours. Instead they left it for over a week before doing what they should have done. Anyway I think they have now done the right thing.
Message: Posted by: Randwill (May 1, 2015 12:53PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, 0pus wrote:
Dougini,

Do you think that it is impossible that the protests are political speech - objections to perceived racism or classism permeating a governmental institution resulting in at best unfair and at worst fatal treatment at the hands of an institution purported to protect the citizenry? [/quote]

My question is why this is happening in the first place. Someone is [i]perpetuating[/i] this "perceived racism". The anger at the way blacks are treated by certain police has been simmering for a long time. Has anything changed? Perception, maybe? And just who [i]is it[/i] that is perpetuating this "perceived racism and classism"? Shouldn't we be WAY past that by now?

It ain't just Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson! No. We have an enemy within our OWN government! A dark elite with an agenda that will affect the world! This is just one strand of the spider web. No good will come of this...

Doug [/quote]
I think, like with many things, we reached a tipping point and the cards fell over. Nothing nefarious about it.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 01:01PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, tommy wrote:

The police on seeing the film should have arrested the police involved right away on suspicion of murder or whatever. [/quote]

What did you see on the video that would lead to this insane statement?
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 01:50PM)
I see the police probably breaking the young mans spine, then picking him up and throwing him into van which attributed to his death more than likely and that is what leads me to this insane statement that the police upon seeing this film should have arrested the police involved right away on suspicion of murder or whatever. What do you see in the film and why do think they have been charged?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 1, 2015 02:29PM)
When it was originally reported that his spine was broken, that was misleading because that statement usually refers to the back. Seems like now they're saying it was his neck. Also, yesterday's reports of the autopsy concluded that it happened after he was placed in the van. Makes one wonder who got to who since yesterday.

Having said all that, it would appear that at the very least, the police should have made sure he was secured in the van before getting under way.

I'm sure more will unfold.
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 02:50PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dougini wrote:

My question is why this is happening in the first place. Someone is [i]perpetuating[/i] this "perceived racism". The anger at the way blacks are treated by certain police has been simmering for a long time. Has anything changed? Perception, maybe? And just who [i]is it[/i] that is perpetuating this "perceived racism and classism"? [/quote]

It could be the police themselves - both individually and institutionally. It could be that the perception [b][i]is[/i][/b] the reality.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 03:13PM)
Charges, including second degree murder, have now been filed against the police officers involved in Gray's death. The prosecutor also found that Freddie Gray had committed NO CRIME and that the knife found on his person was not a switchblade and was perfectly legal.

Looks like the attempted police cover-up is starting to unravel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/01/criminal-charges-freddie-gray_n_7188946.html
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 03:32PM)
Of course, the officers are legally presumed innocent until proven guilty, and who knows what a talented and zealous defense attorney may be able to find?
Message: Posted by: 0pus (May 1, 2015 03:43PM)
Well, at least they are being indicted for an actual crime.

It seems that Gray died without ever having had any crime alleged (except, of course, for his own homicide).

And the police officers will likely get their day in court - aren't constitutinal rights grand?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 03:53PM)
From what I've seen of Gray's arrest record, if they picked him up on a day when he hadn't been engaged in criminal activity, they're the unluckiest cops ever.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 03:59PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
From what I've seen of Gray's arrest record, if they picked him up on a day when he hadn't been engaged in criminal activity, they're the unluckiest cops ever. [/quote]

“You look at Freddie Gray’s rap sheet, and it’s long. Freddie Gray has been arrested, I mean, literally dozens of times, and there’s an interesting way to look at that. Look at how many times the police did not kill Freddie Gray. I mean, this rap sheet––it’s amazing for somebody 24 years of age. A number of times the cops could have really damaged him, but they didn’t for some reason. So why now?”--Rush Limbaugh
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 04:31PM)
With his record, he should not have been on the street in the first place.

The criminal justice system failed him, by not keeping him in jail.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 04:42PM)
Are you sane?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 04:55PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
With his record, he should not have been on the street in the first place.

The criminal justice system failed him, by not keeping him in jail. [/quote]

That's ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that this blatant murder of an innocent black man was even remotely justified?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 05:01PM)
Am I sane?

Yes, I am.

[b]This[/b] is insanity:

[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

That's ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that this blatant murder of an innocent black man was even remotely justified? [/quote]

Blatant murder?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 05:05PM)
Yes. The prosecutor filed charges today having found probable cause for just that.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 05:09PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Yes. The prosecutor filed charges today having found probable cause for just that. [/quote]

Charges that were filed as an appeasement.

No one will be [b]convicted[/b] of murder or manslaughter.

And...

[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/01/21/2836388B00000578-3063807-image-m-77_1430510397964.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 05:12PM)
Call me insane but it looks to me like a murder that is completely lacking in any subtlety.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 05:18PM)
Charges were filed because there was probably cause to find them and it has also been established that the police have omitted critical details from their reports, covered up others and had no right to arrest Gray in the first place, given that the knife in his possession was NOT an illegal switch blade as falsely stated by the police.

The letter from the police union isn't evidence of anything except their desire to have this matter pushed under the rug, just like the innumerable previous instances of police brutality in Baltimore that have resulted in over 7 million dollars in settlements paid out by the city in recent years.

I agree that there probably won't be convictions because I believe the officers charged will eventually plead guilty in order to avoid maximum prison time.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 05:39PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The letter from the police union isn't evidence of anything except their desire to have this matter pushed under the rug, just like the innumerable previous instances of police brutality in Baltimore that have resulted in over 7 million dollars in settlements paid out by the city in recent years.

[/quote]

Do notice the conflicts of interest cited in the letter.

Marilyn Mosby and her husband are long-time friends of Billy Murphy, the attorney for Freddie Gray's family.

Her husband is the city councilman for Freddie Gray's district.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 05:41PM)
Well I think it is quite possible that the officers could be acquitted if it goes to trial. Their defense would be based on something like this;

He Mr Gray looked at us and ran and so we policemen we naturally thought he had committed a crime, so we chased him to question him about it. We saw a knife and so for our safety we jumped him. We did not mean to hurt him, nor did we know we had really and so we put him put into a van to take him in for questioning. Then we became aware he was injured. We are really sorry about it.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 05:47PM)
In addition...

[youtube]pXx6Y8LKJ_0[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 05:57PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Charges were filed because there was probably cause to find them and it has also been established that the police have omitted critical details from their reports, covered up others and had no right to arrest Gray in the first place, given that the knife in his possession was NOT an illegal switch blade as falsely stated by the police.

The letter from the police union isn't evidence of anything except their desire to have this matter pushed under the rug, just like the innumerable previous instances of police brutality in Baltimore that have resulted in over 7 million dollars in settlements paid out by the city in recent years.

I agree that there probably won't be convictions because I believe the officers charged will eventually plead guilty in order to avoid maximum prison time. [/quote]


If I didn't know better, I'd think you were a former prosecutor rather than a former defense attorney. So if there are conflicts of interest favorable to the defense, an independent prosecutor is warranted, but if there are conflicts favorable to the prosecution, one isn't?
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 1, 2015 06:16PM)
As a famous woman once said, "What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2015 06:38PM)
Bob why does it have to be an innocent black man and not just a man? That is where I start to part company.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 06:41PM)
Thanks for the usual non sequitors. But, yes, as a former defense attorney I believe that that a legal defense was criminally denied to Freddy Gray. I also find it odd that you are actually defending the criminals in this case. I thought you were on the side of justice.

Leave it to Kabbalah to post a segment from NewsMax TV of all places. It's got to be the KKK's favorite news source after Breitbart, the Blaze and Faux. I suspect they're having an apoplectic fit because the prosecutor happens to be a black woman.

The charges here appear to be fully warranted by the facts and nothing else.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 06:54PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

[b]Leave it to Kabbalah to post a segment from NewsMax TV of all places. It's got to be the KKK's favorite news source after Breitbart, the Blaze and Faux. I suspect they're having an apoplectic fit because the prosecutor happens to be a black woman.[/b]

The charges here appear to be fully warranted by the facts and nothing else. [/quote]

That was uncalled for! Personal attacks now, Bob?

And, how about the sources you cite? Huffington Post? And, your use of Faux is juvenile and really getting old.

Alan Dershowitz is hardly a conservative. I think I will trust his opinion over yours.

Also, Marilyn Mosby will never be allowed to prosecute this case, given the conflicts of interest.

By the way, three of the accused police officers are black.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:01PM)
Read carefully. It was an attack on right wing media. Surprised you would cite NewsMax as a source for anything, given that it is notorious for misrepresenting facts.

And Fox is Faux however you want to spin it. The coverage they are giving to this is almost laughable.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 1, 2015 07:03PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Am I sane?

Yes, I am.

[b]This[/b] is insanity:

[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

That's ridiculous. Are you seriously suggesting that this blatant murder of an innocent black man was even remotely justified? [/quote]

Blatant murder? [/quote]

Hey, if anyone knows exactly what happened before all the facts are in it's Bob. Just like he knew exactly what happened with Eric Garner, Michael Brown, and Trayvon Martin. All who were obviously murdered according to Bob.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:06PM)
Continuing my last: Odd, isn't it, that the same conflict of interest faced the prosecutor in Ferguson, who had intimate ties to the police department and police unions. I don't recall you having any problems with that.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 07:13PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Read carefully. It was an attack on right wing media. Surprised you would cite NewsMax as a source for anything, given that it is notorious for misrepresenting facts.

And Fox is Faux however you want to spin it. The coverage they are giving to this is almost laughable. [/quote]

I did read carefully...

[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

[b]Leave it to Kabbalah[/b] to post a segment from NewsMax TV of all places. [b]It's got to be the KKK's favorite news source[/b] [/quote]

And, we know that the Huffington Post is the benchmark for internet journalism.:rotf:
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 07:13PM)
Black lives matter.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 07:15PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Continuing my last: Odd, isn't it, that the same conflict of interest faced the prosecutor in Ferguson, who had intimate ties to the police department and police unions. I don't recall you having any problems with that. [/quote]

I don't recall commenting on that.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 07:16PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
Black lives matter. [/quote]

Including the lives of the three black officers and [b]their[/b] families?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 07:35PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Thanks for the usual non sequitors. But, yes, as a former defense attorney I believe that that a legal defense was criminally denied to Freddy Gray. I also find it odd that you are actually defending the criminals in this case. I thought you were on the side of justice.

Leave it to Kabbalah to post a segment from NewsMax TV of all places. It's got to be the KKK's favorite news source after Breitbart, the Blaze and Faux. I suspect they're having an apoplectic fit because the prosecutor happens to be a black woman.

The charges here appear to be fully warranted by the facts and nothing else. [/quote]

Who's defending what criminals?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:40PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Continuing my last: Odd, isn't it, that the same conflict of interest faced the prosecutor in Ferguson, who had intimate ties to the police department and police unions. I don't recall you having any problems with that. [/quote]

I don't recall commenting on that. [/quote]

Exactly my point.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 07:40PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Continuing my last: Odd, isn't it, that the same conflict of interest faced the prosecutor in Ferguson, who had intimate ties to the police department and police unions. I don't recall you having any problems with that. [/quote]

If you meant me...
As I said in the Ferguson thread, I think an independent investigation would have been appropriate. What I disagreed with was the notion that a grand jury proceeding - a proceeding which requires a good faith on the part of a prosecutor - should be called before a prosecutor with such a belief existed.

It's odd that you thought an independent prosecutor was appropriate in Ferguson, and that you think that in Baltimore there is "the same conflict of interest,"" yet you construe the request for an independent prosecutor here as attempt to sweep the incident under the rug.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:42PM)
Lobo- In this case, that would be those defending the cops despite the obvious cover up and attempted altering of the facts.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:44PM)
Kabbalah-

Since the Huffington Post article I cited was simply a report on the news released from Baltimore along with the prosecutors statement, please point out what was misleading or incorrect about it
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 07:46PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- In this case, that would be those defending the cops despite the obvious cover up and attempted altering of the facts. [/quote]

It's gets to be kind of like a rousing chorus of "Row Row Row Your Boat" around here, with overlapping posts and people talking about kind of the same thing but not completely.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 07:49PM)
Really, why bother? It's a pretty cut and dry case--Gray stepped on his own throat and crushed his own vocal box. Case closed.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-freddie-gray-medical-20150427-story.html#page=1
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 1, 2015 07:50PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
Black lives matter.[/quote]

Correction. [i]LIVES[/i] matter! All! I thought we had come quite far, but apparently, some are still in the stone age. For the record, some of the most brilliant, influential and top of the line human beings are and were BLACK! Did we forget them? How about Native Americans? Do they matter? Oriental-Asians?

By golly, black lives had BETTER matter! What matters is shining a light into the dark corners where the real enemy hides! From within our own government! Who told blacks that their lives do not matter? That person does not belong in our society!

There is an agenda. To disrupt our society from within, and start a civil war. It's working. And...it makes me sick.

Doug
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:51PM)
Yep- that's pretty much the argument advanced by the police, their union and their defenders.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:41PM)
Yes, this week is the 46th anniversary of the day that Richard "Red Diaper Baby" Nixon proposed a major expansion of the Food Stamp program.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=2038

Commie dupes, all.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 09:24PM)
What do we want? ...JUSTICE!
When do we want it now? ...NOW!

No justice, no peace.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 10:12PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
What do we want? ...JUSTICE!
When do we want it now? ...NOW!

No justice, no peace. [/quote]

Do you want justice for the looters, too?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 10:20PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The prosecutor also found that [b]Freddie Gray had committed NO CRIME[/b] and that the knife found on his person was not a switchblade and was perfectly legal.

[/quote]

Seems like the prosecutor needs to study some:

Gray willfully interfered with a police investigation by running.

In Maryland it is a crime to obstruct or hinder a police officer from conducting an investigation. Obstructing and hindering is a common law crime and a misdemeanor in Maryland. It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

Elements of Obstructing/Hindering (A crime) -

1. [i]The officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (No room for debate here)
2. [i]There is an act or omission of an act which obstructs or hinders the officer in the performance of duty[/i]. (Running)
3. [i]The accused has knowledge that the officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (Suspect saw police uniforms)
4. [i]There is intent to obstruct or hinder the officer by the actions of the defendant[/i]. (Again, running)

This will defeat the false imprisonment charges.
Message: Posted by: Randwill (May 1, 2015 10:29PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:

It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

[/quote]

So not death.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 10:33PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Randwill wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:

It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

[/quote]

So not death. [/quote]

That is correct.:rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 10:59PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:

And, you and others ignore that far more whites are killed by police actions...but that fact doesn't suit your agenda. [/quote]
If they were killed by black officers illegally, then there would be a different story.

Blacks are being killed and brutalized by white law enforcers on a regular basis.

[youtube]U-VJkCO0iI0[/youtube]

[youtube]JCh8HhZ3Bww[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 1, 2015 11:00PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:

And, you and others ignore that far more whites are killed by police actions...but that fact doesn't suit your agenda. [/quote]
If they were killed by black officers illegally, then there would be a different story.

Blacks are being killed and brutalized by white law enforcers on a regular basis.

[youtube]U-VJkCO0iI0[/youtube]

[youtube]JCh8HhZ3Bww[/youtube] [/quote]

What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:04PM)
Why would any law enforcer want to break orders of who is in charge? The head person was the LT. He was white.



Rodney King.

[youtube]-DzjrY4OAkw[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 11:06PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:

Blacks are being killed and brutalized by white law enforcers on a regular basis.

[/quote]

And blacks are being killed and brutalized by other blacks in every major city in this country everyday.

Where is the outrage?

Where is the black lives matter movement when innocent children are killed?

Where is Jesse? Where is Al?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 11:09PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:

Why would any law enforcer want to break orders of who is in charge? The head person was the LT. He was white.

[/quote]

So, the lieutenant ordered the mistreatment of Freddie Gray?

And, the officers would comply?

You actually believe this?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:14PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Dynamike wrote:

Blacks are being killed and brutalized by white law enforcers on a regular basis.

[/quote]

And blacks are being killed and brutalized by other blacks in every major city in this country everyday.

[/quote]
That is what the whites who are prejudice want to see. They are the ones who set it up that way. "Go to the back of the bus." Enter the back of the building." No blacks are hired." "Blacks sit in the back of the church." "No blacks can drink from the water fountain." It set a lot of blacks up with low self-esteem.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 1, 2015 11:14PM)
Can't wait till this waste of bandwidth is gone.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:18PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:

Why would any law enforcer want to break orders of who is in charge? The head person was the LT. He was white.

[/quote]

So, the lieutenant ordered the mistreatment of Freddie Gray?

And, the officers would comply?

You actually believe this? [/quote]

You are twisting my words around. If it was a mistake, I can understand. The Lt was wrong by not having the other law enforcers follow the correct process. I know about this process because I was in a situation similiar to it.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:20PM)
Can't wait till this waste of prejudie is gone.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 11:22PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:

That is what the whites who are prejudice want to see. They are the ones who set it up that way. "Go to the back of the bus." Enter the back of the building." No blacks are hired." "Blacks sit in the back of the church." "No blacks can drink from the water fountain." It set a lot of blacks up with low self-esteem. [/quote]

Wow.

OK.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:28PM)
Take my word for it, a whole lot of whites are still prejudice against blacks in this country. Some are law enforcers and politicians.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 11:32PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
Take my word for it, a whole lot of whites are still prejudice against blacks in this country. Some are law enforcers and politicians. [/quote]

And, blacks are not prejudiced against whites? Some are politicians.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 1, 2015 11:53PM)
Of course many blacks are prejudice against whites. It is because what so many whites put them through with their prejudices. Blacks are not prejudice against Native Americans, Eskimos, Latin Americans, etc. The white law enforcers killing and brutalizing black individuals illegally are going to enhance the blacks to become just as much prejudice.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 12:07AM)
So, selective justice then.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 2, 2015 06:55AM)
One has no independence when one has no control of resources.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 2, 2015 07:34AM)
A black man is dead. Some say murdered. We don't know for sure how or why?

A city had buildings looted and burned. We know how and why. Because a black man is dead but we still don't know how or why the black man is dead.

We have officers charged. Why can't we wait and see the outcome? Why can't the rioters and looters wait for justice? Because those who are looting and rioting are not interested in justice.

Does anyone see anything inherently wrong with this scenario?

Just as an addendum three of those officers accused happen to be black. I imagine those three black officers don't like blacks either. That is why the supposedly murdered this black man. Yea...makes sense to me. (sarcasm)
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 2, 2015 08:28AM)
Thank you for your service.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 08:35AM)
What do we want? Selective justice! When do we want it? Before an investigation and trial!
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 2, 2015 08:49AM)
What do we want? The word on the street is reform. Some have long said everything is being reformed in this 21st Century of Change. A new world is coming into view. One in which the police is being reformed into private mercenaries and the like to protect the moneyed from the multi-coloured mob on the street. Control of the mob is easily done by control of the resources: i.e. Do as you are told or else you don’t get your ration. There will no doubt be a jail system, one where you get enhanced if you behalf well and if not you get put on a lower level of privileges. That is what we are getting, whether we want it or not.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 09:25AM)
Do you want a society without jails?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 2, 2015 09:48AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
A black man is dead. Some say murdered. We don't know for sure how or why?

A city had buildings looted and burned. We know how and why. Because a black man is dead but we still don't know how or why the black man is dead.

We have officers charged. Why can't we wait and see the outcome? Why can't the rioters and looters wait for justice? Because those who are looting and rioting are not interested in justice.

Does anyone see anything inherently wrong with this scenario?

Just as an addendum three of those officers accused happen to be black. I imagine those three black officers don't like blacks either. That is why the supposedly murdered this black man. Yea...makes sense to me. (sarcasm) [/quote]

We do know why Freddie Gray is dead. It is because of police brutality. And they did not take him to the hospital like they were suppose to. (Read the article below for proof.) He did not even break the law because the knife he had on him was legal. It was not a switch blade as reported. There should have been an investigation before his death. Since it was not the gangs got together. The gangs caused millions dollars of destruction. But black lives are worth more than that. Like most other incidents there were no investigations of a black person dieing of a law enforcer's brutality. Take my word for it, blacks don't like that. Blacks have been telling the law enforcers to stop for the longest. But it is doing no good. The blacks wants to make their statements stronger by the destruction. If it does not work the only other choice they have is to... I rather not say it.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/24/us/baltimore-freddie-gray-death/

http://www.businessinsider.com/prosecutor-says-no-reason-to-arrest-freddie-gray-2015-5
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (May 2, 2015 09:49AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Do you want a society without jails? [/quote]

Yes, eventually.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 2, 2015 09:50AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Do you want a society without jails? [/quote]

Where's gdw when we need him?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 2, 2015 09:55AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Do you want a society without jails? [/quote]
Everybody still want jails and prisons, (even though so many blacks in there did not commit a crime.) If a black man commits a crime, the law enforcer should go about arresting the suspect the proper manner. They are making it just as worse with brutality. So many are breaking the law and getting away with it. It is a good thing more law enforcers wrong doings are being recorded. All law enforcers should wear cameras. It will make them think twice. That will put out the riots.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 09:59AM)
All rioters should wear cameras.

What exactly do you believe the "proper manner?

Why should only black men be arrested in this fashion?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 2, 2015 10:01AM)
What do we want?...Justice.
When do we want it?...Now.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 10:20AM)
Define justice.

Don't just chant, don't just parrot words. Use your own mind and go from there.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 10:32AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
What do we want?...Justice.
When do we want it?...Now. [/quote]

I think cameras are a good idea, too.

So, do you think the rioters and looters and the black officers who participated in the death of Freddie Gray should receive the criminal consequences of their actions?
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 2, 2015 10:33AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The letter from the police union isn't evidence of anything except their desire to have this matter pushed under the rug, just like the innumerable previous instances of police brutality in Baltimore that have resulted in over 7 million dollars in settlements paid out by the city in recent years.

[/quote]

Do notice the conflicts of interest cited in the letter.

Marilyn Mosby and her husband are long-time friends of Billy Murphy, the attorney for Freddie Gray's family.

Her husband is the city councilman for Freddie Gray's district. [/quote]
You forgot to mention that she is from a family of police officers.

"Lest anyone think she lacks respect for the police, Ms. Mosby took pains to point out on Friday that her mother, father and grandfather were police officers. She has noted that her grandfather was a founding member of the first association of black police officers in Massachusetts."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 10:38AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
What do we want?...Justice.
When do we want it?...Now. [/quote]

I think cameras are a good idea, too.

So, do you think the rioters and looters and the black officers who participated in the death of Freddie Gray should receive the criminal consequences of their actions? [/quote]

How exactly do you think that is the "justice" he is speaking of?
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 2, 2015 10:38AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The prosecutor also found that [b]Freddie Gray had committed NO CRIME[/b] and that the knife found on his person was not a switchblade and was perfectly legal.

[/quote]

Seems like the prosecutor needs to study some:

Gray willfully interfered with a police investigation by running.

In Maryland it is a crime to obstruct or hinder a police officer from conducting an investigation. Obstructing and hindering is a common law crime and a misdemeanor in Maryland. It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

Elements of Obstructing/Hindering (A crime) -

1. [i]The officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (No room for debate here)
2. [i]There is an act or omission of an act which obstructs or hinders the officer in the performance of duty[/i]. (Running)
3. [i]The accused has knowledge that the officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (Suspect saw police uniforms)
4. [i]There is intent to obstruct or hinder the officer by the actions of the defendant[/i]. (Again, running)

This will defeat the false imprisonment charges. [/quote]
AFAIK, they did not charge or arrest him for obstructing / hindering a crime or police officer, so I think your observation is irrelevant.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 10:41AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The letter from the police union isn't evidence of anything except their desire to have this matter pushed under the rug, just like the innumerable previous instances of police brutality in Baltimore that have resulted in over 7 million dollars in settlements paid out by the city in recent years.

[/quote]

Do notice the conflicts of interest cited in the letter.

Marilyn Mosby and her husband are long-time friends of Billy Murphy, the attorney for Freddie Gray's family.

Her husband is the city councilman for Freddie Gray's district. [/quote]
You forgot to mention that she is from a family of police officers.

"Lest anyone think she lacks respect for the police, Ms. Mosby took pains to point out on Friday that her mother, father and grandfather were police officers. She has noted that her grandfather was a founding member of the first association of black police officers in Massachusetts." [/quote]

Some of her best friends are police officers, one might say. I don't think pointing out a conflict of interest is a suggestion that she lacks respect for the police.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 10:44AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

The prosecutor also found that [b]Freddie Gray had committed NO CRIME[/b] and that the knife found on his person was not a switchblade and was perfectly legal.

[/quote]

Seems like the prosecutor needs to study some:

Gray willfully interfered with a police investigation by running.

In Maryland it is a crime to obstruct or hinder a police officer from conducting an investigation. Obstructing and hindering is a common law crime and a misdemeanor in Maryland. It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

Elements of Obstructing/Hindering (A crime) -

1. [i]The officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (No room for debate here)
2. [i]There is an act or omission of an act which obstructs or hinders the officer in the performance of duty[/i]. (Running)
3. [i]The accused has knowledge that the officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (Suspect saw police uniforms)
4. [i]There is intent to obstruct or hinder the officer by the actions of the defendant[/i]. (Again, running)

This will defeat the false imprisonment charges. [/quote]
AFAIK, they did not charge or arrest him for obstructing / hindering a crime or police officer, so I think your observation is irrelevant. [/quote]

Pretty sure that doesn't follow. Of course they didn't charge him; you don't get charged on the way to the station.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 11:03AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Do you want a society without jails? [/quote]
Everybody still want jails and prisons, (even though so many blacks in there did not commit a crime.) If a black man commits a crime, the law enforcer should go about arresting the suspect the proper manner. They are making it just as worse with brutality. So many are breaking the law and getting away with it. It is a good thing more law enforcers wrong doings are being recorded. All law enforcers should wear cameras. It will make them think twice. That will put out the riots. [/quote]

BTW Mike I appreciate your perspective on this as a black man and I respect your willingness to share an opinion on something that may hit you as a much more personal issue that it is for the rest of us.
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 2, 2015 11:14AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, balducci wrote:

AFAIK, they did not charge or arrest him for obstructing / hindering a crime or police officer, so I think your observation is irrelevant. [/quote]

Pretty sure that doesn't follow. Of course they didn't charge him; you don't get charged on the way to the station. [/quote]
The way I wrote it you may be right. So drop the word charge from what I wrote. I read it was an illegal arrest. So what does that mean, exactly? If Kabbalah is correct, shouldn't the arrest be legal?

Let me put it another way, do you think Kabbalah has a valid point? Or was it pretty much irrelevant? You are the lawyer here, so educate me.

:)
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 11:28AM)
I would think that a false imprisonment charge would be an extremely tough row to hoe. They'd have to show - beyond a reasonable doubt - that they illegally had him in custody. Bear in mind that the threshold for police officers taking a suspect into custody isn't the actual commission of a crime; it's probable cause. So I don't think that charge will fly. Of course, I think they have other things to worry about. :o

In civil cases, there's a doctrine called res ipsa loquitur ("The thing speaks for itself"). It used to be that you had to prove exactly what you were alleging happened. For instance, the doctrine arose from a case in which a guy was walking down the sidewalk, and a barrel from a business fell out of a window and hit him on the head. He sued for negligence. Under the established law at the time, he had to prove specifically what had happened, that is, Were the barrels stacked negligently? Were employees goofing off? etc. In other words, the plaintiff would have been pretty well screwed. But the new doctrine said, basically, we don't have to know exactly WHAT happened to know that there was negligence; the situation couldn't have arisen otherwise. The court laid down a bunch of rules, e.g. the barrel was in the exclusive possession and control of the business' agents, etc., but basically common sense prevailed.

That's a civil law doctrine, but I have to say, while still awaiting more facts to come out from this case, it almost sounds like a res ipsa loquitur type of situation. I think the officers are going to have a hard time suggesting that Gray's injuries DIDN'T arise because of their intentional and unjustified actions.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 2, 2015 11:29AM)
Gray committed no crime, not matter how Kabbalah wishes to spin it and there were no grounds to arrest him.

The police have already stated that they didn't arrest him for "running," but for possession of an illegal switchblade. The knife in his possession, however, was not a switchblade nor was it illegal.

Note that Kabbalah, who is clearly acting as an apologist for the police action in this case, has introduced his own interpretation of the law by including running as "obstruction."

His point, therefore, is not only irrelevant, it is factually and legally incorrect.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 11:36AM)
I agree that Kabbalah is an apologist for the police; however, if the statute is cited correctly, it's obstructing OR HINDERING, and I do think running from officers can reasonably be construed as hindering their investigation. Whether or not he was arrested for it is a separate issue from whether or not he did it. If he'd survived the trip to the station, he might very well have been charged with it.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 11:38AM)
BTW, for those who don't want to go to law school but have an interest in various aspects of the law (criminal, constitutional, pretty much anything you can think of), I strongly recommend Aspen Publishing's "Examples and Explanations" series. http://www.thelawbookstore.com/legal_books/pc/showsearchresults.asp?pageStyle=M&resultCnt=&keyword=examples+explanations (available cheaper no doubt from used sources). They're written by different authors, so some are better than others, but by and large, they'll give you a really good understanding of various aspects of the law without all those pesky student loans. They're pretty entertaining, too.
Message: Posted by: Randwill (May 2, 2015 11:42AM)
What were the officers investigating that was hindered?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 2, 2015 11:44AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I agree that Kabbalah is an apologist for the police; however, if the statute is cited correctly, it's obstructing OR HINDERING, and I do think running from officers can reasonably be construed as hindering their investigation. Whether or not he was arrested for it is a separate issue from whether or not he did it. If he'd survived the trip to the station, he might very well have been charged with it. [/quote]

And if Gray was, in fact, charged with obstruction, the State would have the burden of showing that they had probable cause to pursue him and that the orders they gave him were lawful. Given the facts of this case as they presently appear, it seems unlikely that they would have been able to prove either.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 12:02PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I agree that Kabbalah is an apologist for the police; however, if the statute is cited correctly, it's obstructing OR HINDERING, and I do think running from officers can reasonably be construed as hindering their investigation. Whether or not he was arrested for it is a separate issue from whether or not he did it. If he'd survived the trip to the station, he might very well have been charged with it. [/quote]

And if Gray was, in fact, charged with obstruction, the State would have the burden of showing that they had probable cause to pursue him and that the orders they gave him were lawful. Given the facts of this case as they presently appear, it seems unlikely that they would have been able to prove either. [/quote]

That's correct, but that's not the issue. That would be the issue if Gray were defending an obstruction charge. Instead, with respect to the officers defending a false imprisonment charge, the prosecution [i]of the officers[/i] would have to show - beyond a reasonable doubt - that they DIDN'T have probable cause to detain him.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 12:06PM)
All legal technicalities aside the riots are wrong.

All legal technicalities aside a young man has been taken from life.

Neither of those two things are acceptable.

There are more things not acceptable. I think concentrating on that might help some.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (May 2, 2015 12:52PM)
Shep Smith is sick of Fox hosts race baiting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIcB_xFsz3w


Ron
Message: Posted by: Randwill (May 2, 2015 01:04PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Shep Smith is sick of Fox hosts race baiting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIcB_xFsz3w


Ron [/quote]
Thanks for that link. The guy makes many good points. I'm amazed that Shepard Smith was allowed to get away with that on Fox News.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 2, 2015 01:11PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Gray committed no crime, not matter how Kabbalah wishes to spin it and there were no grounds to arrest him.

The police have already stated that they didn't arrest him for "running," but for possession of an illegal switchblade. The knife in his possession, however, was not a switchblade nor was it illegal.

Note that Kabbalah, who is clearly acting as an apologist for the police action in this case, has introduced his own interpretation of the law by including running as "obstruction."

His point, therefore, is not only irrelevant, it is factually and legally incorrect. [/quote]

Once a duly sworn law enforcement officer in Maryland orders you to stop, if you do not heed that order, you have broken the law and can be charged with a misdemeanor. A crime. A crime is grounds for arrest. No spin.

I am not a police apologist. Actually, I am not a fan of the police, quite the opposite, just ask the officers in my neighborhood. I am well known for not cooperating with the local constabulary. Particularly, when fourth amendment rights of juveniles are violated.

I have not interpreted law...I have stated it as it exists in Maryland. Running is obstructing, hindering and impeding. It is a crime.

My point is entirely relevant and correct.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 01:15PM)
The penalty for which is not death.

That seems at least equally relevant.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 01:19PM)
His point was specific to the false imprisonment charge. I agree that it won't fly.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 01:23PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, R.S. wrote:
Shep Smith is sick of Fox hosts race baiting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIcB_xFsz3w


Ron [/quote]

Interesting spin to construe that as race-baiting.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 2, 2015 01:34PM)
Reasonable suspicion is all the police need to briefly detain a suspect for investigatory purposes and I can’t think of anything more suspicious than running away upon seeing a cop.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 01:53PM)
Right, but to bring him in, they need more than that.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 2, 2015 01:58PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

And if Gray was, in fact, charged with obstruction, [b]the State would have the burden of showing that they had probable cause to pursue him and that the orders they gave him were lawful. Given the facts of this case as they presently appear, it seems unlikely that they would have been able to prove either[/b]. [/quote]

Bob, do see this Supreme Court decision:

[b]ILLINOIS V. WARDLOW (98-1036) 528 U.S. 119 (2000)[/b]

The facts of Wardlow are fairly straightforward: [b]Wardlow fled upon seeing police officers patrolling an area known for heavy narcotics trafficking and other illicit activities. Two officers gave chase, overtook Wardlow, and patted him down for weapons[/b]. The officers found Wardlow to be in possession of a .38 caliber handgun and subsequently arrested him. [b]The stop, according to Chief Justice Rehnquist, who delivered the opinion of the Court, did not violate the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution[/b].

Notice, the Chief Justice stated that [b]the stop[/b] did not violate fourth amendment rights, irrespective of the discovery of a weapon.

Chief Justice Rehnquist said, "[b]Headlong flight -- wherever it occurs -- is the consummate act of evasion: it is not necessarily indicative of wrongdoing, but it is certainly suggestive of such[/b]."

The Rehnquist opinion said flight was not a "mere refusal to cooperate" with the police, or an aspect of "going about one's business," but was "just the opposite." He added: "Allowing officers confronted with such flight to stop the fugitive and investigate further is quite consistent with the individual's right to go about his business or to stay put and remain silent in the face of police questioning."

Thus, there is already precedent, so the state has no obligation to prove probable cause.

Running is evasion and a crime!
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 02:17PM)
There's a difference between allowing officers to "stop a fugitive and investigate further," for which the legal threshold is "reasonable suspicion," and allowing officers to take a suspect into custody, for which the legal threshold his higher - probable cause.

Moreover, the question in Wardlow wasn't even whether [i]evasion itself[/i] constitutes a crime; it's whether evasion provided enough of a reason to stop and frisk the suspect; if it hadn't, the gun would have been inadmissible and his conviction would have been overturned.

The Wardlow case has no legal bearing whatsoever on the case in Baltimore.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 2, 2015 02:44PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
There's a difference between allowing officers to "stop a fugitive and investigate further," for which the legal threshold is "reasonable suspicion," and allowing officers to take a suspect into custody, for which the legal threshold his higher - probable cause.

Moreover, the question in Wardlow wasn't even whether [i]evasion itself[/i] constitutes a crime; it's whether evasion provided enough of a reason to stop and frisk the suspect; if it hadn't, the gun would have been inadmissible and his conviction would have been overturned.

The Wardlow case has no legal bearing whatsoever on the case in Baltimore. [/quote]

Are you saying Wardlow does not shield the officers for their pursuit?

I was responding to this...

[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

And if Gray was, in fact, charged with obstruction, [b]the State would have the burden of showing that they had probable cause to pursue him and that the orders they gave him were lawful[/b]. Given the facts of this case as they presently appear, it seems unlikely that they would have been able to prove either. [/quote]

I was not talking about Wardlow giving the right to take Gray into custody...only the pursuit and stop.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 02:51PM)
Ah, I see. In fact, they don't need probable cause to pursue him; they only need reasonable suspicion, and I do agree that the Wardlow case (if still good law) does give them that.

They do need more, which doesn't come from [i]Wardlow[/i] to take him into custody.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 04:10PM)
There are also limits on the amount and type of force allowed to be used when a suspect is to be detained.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 04:14PM)
I'm only addressing the issue of whether taking him into custody constituted "false imprisonment."
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 2, 2015 04:17PM)
No doubt.

I guess I was comparing this more sorry.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 04:20PM)
No, I was just clarifying. I don't think the officers have anything to worry about on the false imprisonment charge. As to Gray's death...IMO, with what we know so far, it looks awfully bad for them.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 2, 2015 06:45PM)
From his arrest record the police probably know him on sight. If a guy with that history starts to run when police show up I am not sure what they should or should not do. I do not mean they should kill him...restrain him...possibly. I mean this guy has been around the block a number of times and knows what will happen if he runs from police just because of their presence. Most innocent people whether they are white or black don't flee just because police are in the vicinity.

Gray had been involved in 20 criminal court cases, five of which were still active at the time of his death, and was due in court on a possession charge on April 24

Has anyone noticed the race of Officer Caesar Goodson, the one charged with murder? This puts a different slant of white police officers disliking blacks. Maybe police officers don't like career criminals regardless of color of the officer or the offender. Reason being these offenders do not like career criminals is that they constantly put the officers life in danger on a regular basis. I would imagine they get PO'd at that when it keeps happening with the same people over and over again. Of course not a reason to murder someone. But we are not sure anyone was murdered here. Are we? I believe that is why we have a legal system. to find out the truth and not to ruch to judgment and be politically pushed into decisions.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 2, 2015 07:07PM)
[youtube]bfrVsq9h8U8[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 2, 2015 10:49PM)
Unarmed People of Color Killed by Police, 1999-2014:

http://gawker.com/unarmed-people-of-color-killed-by-police-1999-2014-1666672349

Here’s the Data That Shows Cops Kill Black People at a Higher Rate Than White People

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data

A white police officer gave me a hard time my first (and last) day performing at a restaurant in 2009: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=5&topic=324049#25
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 2, 2015 11:26PM)
Did you ever tell what the joke you cracked was here on the café?
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 07:49AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[youtube]bfrVsq9h8U8[/youtube] [/quote]


?

When they broke his spine was not after, but before they put him into the van.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 3, 2015 09:23AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, acesover wrote:
... I believe that is why we have a legal system. to find out the truth and not to ruch to judgment and be politically pushed into decisions. [/quote]

Too bad that standard didn't seem to matter in Ferguson. But it is, I believe, being observed in the present case.

The police clearly killed t his man without any justification whatsoever.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 3, 2015 09:36AM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, tommy wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
[youtube]bfrVsq9h8U8[/youtube] [/quote]


?

When they broke his spine was not after, but before they put him into the van. [/quote]

That was from the three law enforcers that were white when they illegally arrested him. Lt Rice, Ofr Miller and Ofr Nero. Those are the same law enforcers who locked Mr Gray in the police wagon not following the Baltimore Police Department procedure of locking up a suspect. Lt Rice directed Ofr Goodson to transport Mr Gray to the booking facility, not to any hospital.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 3, 2015 12:09PM)
What is that procesure an how did they differ from it Mike?
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (May 3, 2015 12:46PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:


What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black? [/quote]
Charge all 6 law enforcer that was involved no matter the color of their skin. Remember we are looking for justice.

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 3, 2015 02:22PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
No, I was just clarifying. I don't think the officers have anything to worry about on the false imprisonment charge. As to Gray's death...IMO, with what we know so far, it looks awfully bad for them. [/quote]

I think that many are missing the point behind some of the charges. As I said earlier, I believe the officers in this case are likely to plead out. That's just the reality of the criminal justice system. When a prosecutor files charges, that is just the first step in the plea bargaining process, hence the charges that don't immediately seem to fit the offense.

But false imprisonment certainly does apply for the time Gray was held in the van without being taken for medical care. Keep in mind that this took place AFTER it was determined that there was no cause to arrest him in the first place.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 3, 2015 03:33PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:


What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black? [/quote]
Charge all 6 law enforcer that was involved no matter the color of their skin. Remember we are looking for justice.

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW! [/quote]

Dynamike,

What would you consider justice in this instance from what we know at this point in time? As you are constantly saying, "NOW". What do you want NOW? Right NOW. Tell us what would please you in the way of justice right NOW.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 3, 2015 03:45PM)
Now means no investigation just scream racist and prosecute.
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 3, 2015 04:47PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
No, I was just clarifying. I don't think the officers have anything to worry about on the false imprisonment charge. As to Gray's death...IMO, with what we know so far, it looks awfully bad for them. [/quote]

I think that many are missing the point behind some of the charges.
[/quote]
I think some are also confused about what the charges are.

For instance I was confused why Alicia White was charged, as she was not involved in the apprehension of Gray at all and was responsible for investigating two citizen complaints about Gray's arrest.

But it turns out when the van stopped and she had the opportunity to see and speak with Gray, she failed to do anything (like call a medic) when he was unresponsive.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 3, 2015 05:04PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
No, I was just clarifying. I don't think the officers have anything to worry about on the false imprisonment charge. As to Gray's death...IMO, with what we know so far, it looks awfully bad for them. [/quote]

I think that many are missing the point behind some of the charges. As I said earlier, I believe the officers in this case are likely to plead out. That's just the reality of the criminal justice system. When a prosecutor files charges, that is just the first step in the plea bargaining process, hence the charges that don't immediately seem to fit the offense.

But false imprisonment certainly does apply for the time Gray was held in the van without being taken for medical care. Keep in mind that this took place AFTER it was determined that there was no cause to arrest him in the first place. [/quote]

Whether there was any cause at all to arrest him may depend on the fleeing/hindering issue and the law that Kaballah cited.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 05:14PM)
Freddie Gray, he was never under arrest in reality. They just jumped him, broke his spine, threw him in the back of the van to die and then came up with some hogwash.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 3, 2015 05:31PM)
One more time...

[b]Police Privilege[/b]

[i]In all states, [b]police officers have the right to detain someone[/b] they have probable cause to believe has engaged in wrongdoing, or [b]when they believe a crime has been committed[/b].[/i]

[b]In Maryland it is a crime to obstruct or hinder a police officer from conducting an investigation[/b]. Obstructing and hindering is a common law crime and a misdemeanor in Maryland. It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine.

[b]Elements of Obstructing/Hindering[/b] (A crime) -

1. [i]The officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (No room for debate here)
2. [i]There is an act or omission of an act which obstructs or hinders the officer in the performance of duty[/i]. (Running)
3. [i]The accused has knowledge that the officer is engaged in the performance of duty[/i]. (Suspect saw police uniforms)
4. [i]There is intent to obstruct or hinder the officer by the actions of the defendant[/i]. (Again, running)

Running from the police in Maryland is a crime if the four elements noted above are present.

Once again, no false imprisonment.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 06:07PM)
Police Privilege

In all states, police officers have the right to detain someone they have probable cause to believe has engaged in wrongdoing, or when they believe a crime has been committed and break their spine and throw them into to van to die or strangle or shoot them in the back.

In Maryland it is a crime to obstruct or hinder a police officer from conducting an investigation. Obstructing and hindering is a common law crime and a misdemeanor in Maryland. It carries a maximum of three (3) years incarceration and/or a $3,000 fine or a broken spine and death.

Elements of Obstructing/Hindering (A crime) -

1. The officer is engaged in the performance of duty. (No room for debate here) Or they break you spine and throw you van.
2. There is an act or omission of an act which obstructs or hinders the officer in the performance of duty. (Running) away from getting your neck broke and being thrown into the van.
3. The accused has knowledge that the officer is engaged in the performance of duty. (Suspect saw police uniforms) and no wonder he ran.
4. There is intent to obstruct or hinder the officer by the actions of the defendant. (Again, running) and no again wonder.

Running from the police in Maryland is a crime if the four elements noted above are present. Punishable by a broken neck.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 3, 2015 06:27PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, tommy wrote:
Freddie Gray, he was never under arrest in reality. They just jumped him, broke his spine, threw him in the back of the van to die and then came up with some hogwash. [/quote]

There you have it. From someone who was there and knows all the facts. Cut and dried. Because if someone was not there and did not know all the facts they would not be so stupid as to make such a statement.

Thanks for clearing it up Tommy. :) Let's move on now.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 06:37PM)
You should've gone to Specsavers if the video wasn't clear.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 3, 2015 06:45PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:


What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black? [/quote]
Charge all 6 law enforcer that was involved no matter the color of their skin. Remember we are looking for justice.

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW! [/quote]




Dynamike,

What would you consider justice in this instance from what we know at this point in time? As you are constantly saying, "NOW". What do you want NOW? Right NOW. Tell us what would please you in the way of justice right NOW. [/quote]

He doesn't know. He might as well be on street making a fool of himself along with all of the other rioters and protesters who don't know.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 06:46PM)
And you should've listened to your mom. She warned you that you would go blind doing that.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 3, 2015 07:02PM)
I would like to state my opinion on this particular issue and the whole outlook of racial prejudice, not that anyone cares, but here it is.

Any wrong doing on the officers or anyone else that may have contributed to the death of Mr. Gray either through negligence or purposely should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If police are found in any wrong doing they should be stripped of their positions, pensions and if found guilty of charges that require prison time they should in this instance receive the max and not be offered any plea deals.

With the climate right now in The United States we have to...as we very loosely say, draw the line in the sand and mean it. If said officers are found not guilty, They should be exonerated and allowed to stay on as police officers. Unfortunately that scenario would not bode well with the Black Community which feels and to an extent rightly so has been dumped on for quite some time. However many of their (black community) actions are not helping relieve this issue and adds to the problem. Two wrongs do not make a right. There is obviously prejudice on both sides of this issue and it is not going to go away easily or it may never go away. When such issues fester on both sides those who instigate from both sides make it just about impossible to find a solution.

While this may sound harsh. I believe it is reality. Those who are extreme on both sides, and they are the ones who make the news, I feel do not want a solution. They want, what that slogan says. "We want justice now". Unfortunately the justice both sides want is not justice nor even understanding. It is nothing more than attitude. That attitude is, they are right and the other side is wrong, and until it is all their way it is not justice. Sorry to say. I really don't see things getting any better.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 07:10PM)
Looks like you have had a bit too much to think.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 3, 2015 07:29PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:


What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black? [/quote]
Charge all 6 law enforcer that was involved no matter the color of their skin. Remember we are looking for justice.

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW! [/quote]




Dynamike,

What would you consider justice in this instance from what we know at this point in time? As you are constantly saying, "NOW". What do you want NOW? Right NOW. Tell us what would please you in the way of justice right NOW. [/quote]

He doesn't know. He might as well be on street making a fool of himself along with all of the other rioters and protesters who don't know. [/quote]

I don't think that is fair. I keep asking because he probably does know and my life experience being in white skin does not allow me the viewpoint Mike has.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 3, 2015 08:57PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, tommy wrote:
Looks like you have had a bit too much to think. [/quote]


Yeah. I forgot. You already solved this a few posts ago. :)
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 09:38PM)
I wouldn’t worry about it as the excessive use of force by the police is actually quite normal. It always has been so down through the ages and worldwide. It is all these cameras that are the real problem, as a lot of the normal police brutality is now being caught on camera and flashed around the world and causing all these uprisings. I think we all ought to do like Aces, close our eyes and pretend it does not exist and live happily ever after. :cool:
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 3, 2015 10:15PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, acesover wrote:
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Dynamike wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:


What about the half of the officers charged in the Baltimore killing who are black? [/quote]
Charge all 6 law enforcer that was involved no matter the color of their skin. Remember we are looking for justice.

What do we want?...JUSTICE!
When do we want it?...NOW! [/quote]




Dynamike,

What would you consider justice in this instance from what we know at this point in time? As you are constantly saying, "NOW". What do you want NOW? Right NOW. Tell us what would please you in the way of justice right NOW. [/quote]

He doesn't know. He might as well be on street making a fool of himself along with all of the other rioters and protesters who don't know. [/quote]

I don't think that is fair. I keep asking because he probably does know and my life experience being in white skin does not allow me the viewpoint Mike has. [/quote]

I'm really tired of the " You can't know because you're not black. " excuse. Maybe sixty or seventy years ago, but not now.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 3, 2015 10:26PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, tommy wrote:
I wouldn’t worry about it as the excessive use of force by the police is actually quite normal. It always has been so down through the ages and worldwide. It is all these cameras that are the real problem, as a lot of the normal police brutality is now being caught on camera and flashed around the world and causing all these uprisings. I think we all ought to do like Aces, close our eyes and pretend it does not exist and live happily ever after. :cool: [/quote]


What do cameras have to do with your solving this case and being there and knowing all the facts? You did this all on your own because you must have been there. As I said earlier otherwise no one would make such a stupid statement. You should have come forth earlier in this investigation and saved everyone a lot of time and frustration. Keep up your good work Tommy. Looking forward to more of your reliable posts on these matters. :)

By the way. Helmet cams are a great idea for police to wear and not rely on biased witnesses.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 4, 2015 08:50AM)
Here we are in 2015. Some whites still hate blacks. Blacks are still tired of being mistreated. Justice NOW! There IS no justice! Now or ever. Smart thing to do, is rise above it. Get educated, and fight it from within. Not act like an animal, destroying and making noise. It just furthers the image they are trying to erase.

We look at this from outside, and shake our heads ruefully.

Doug
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (May 4, 2015 11:34AM)
" Some whites still hate blacks." Most blacks hate whites "Blacks are still tired of being mistreated" If they started acting human and stop all the crime they woulded be mistreated.

In this "politically correct" messed up world we live it we can't tell it like it is.Wake up and smell the toast burning.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 4, 2015 12:13PM)
Well I don’t think it was as good as Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 4, 2015 02:08PM)
Tried to set this man on fire...

[youtube]quW7LquykV8[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 4, 2015 02:12PM)
We all have to look in the mirror. Why hate anyone? My best friends have been black! Why would I hate them? Skin color? Difference in income?? Nope. Not good enough. When I don't like a person, it's because they may be a bad person to me. Doesn't matter what nationality or color, for crying out loud!

I have a friend from Syria. I'm told that I'm not supposed to like him. What??? Why??? He's from Syria! So??? What the HELL did he do? He's one of the NICEST people you'll ever meet! He's a Christian! That shocks people. I'm steamed at the open racism! His whole family takes it every day! They are so nice about it...I get wound up! I understand, if anyone does!

Hate does no one any good. Riotous violence doesn't either. Stupidity furthers the flame. Uncaring authority figures started this fiasco in the first place! There is NO place for racism in today's world! Black Lives Matter! You're .damn [i]right[/i] they do!

Doug
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (May 4, 2015 02:15PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2015, Dougini wrote:
We all have to look in the mirror. Why hate anyone? My best friends have been black! Why would I hate them? Skin color? Difference in income?? Nope. Not good enough. When I don't like a person, it's because they may be a bad person to me. Doesn't matter what nationality or color, for crying out loud!

I have a friend from Syria. I'm told that I'm not supposed to like him. What??? Why??? He's from Syria! So??? What the HELL did he do? He's one of the NICEST people you'll ever meet! He's a Christian! That shocks people. I'm steamed at the open racism! His whole family takes it every day! They are so nice about it...I get wound up! I understand, if anyone does!

Hate does no one any good. Riotous violence doesn't either. Stupidity furthers the flame. Uncaring authority figures started this fiasco in the first place! There is NO place for racism in today's world! Black Lives Matter! You're .damn [i]right[/i] they do!

Doug [/quote]

Who tells you you're not supposed to like your Syrian friend?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 4, 2015 04:35PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2015, DonDriver wrote:
... If they started acting human and stop all the crime they woulded be mistreated.

In this "politically correct" messed up world we live it we can't tell it like it is.Wake up and smell the toast burning. [/quote]

Nice way to openly denigrate an entire race. There's a word for that.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (May 4, 2015 06:20PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Tried to set this man on fire...

[youtube]quW7LquykV8[/youtube] [/quote]


So he was watching his 12 year old niece who he had to rush to safety, but despite being in grave danger at the pizza shop, the police would not even escort the two of them to his car, as El Ghannam had asked. Instead, he was told to just lock the door. I wonder if under different circumstances, like say, if El Ghannam was walking down the street one day and then ran in the presence of police, if they would chase him down and break his spine. Anyway, thank goodness El Ghannam is alright. He can always rebuild his shop and move on with his life.


Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 4, 2015 06:38PM)
So.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 4, 2015 06:50PM)
[quote]On May 4, 2015, R.S. wrote:

I wonder if under different circumstances, like say, if El Ghannam was walking down the street one day and then ran in the presence of police, if they would chase him down and break his spine.

Ron [/quote]

Not sure if serious.

If so...
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 4, 2015 07:11PM)
It's quite possible given the millions Baltimore and other cities have paid out in recent years to settle police brutality suits:

[quote]The city of Baltimore has paid $5.7 million in settlements from police-brutality cases since 2011, the Baltimore Sun reported last year. And they're not alone. According to multiple open-records requests compiled through MuckRock, a slew of major American cities have paid tens of millions of dollars in brutality suits.

One common thread? Cities with larger black populations are far more likely to see suits against the police—and to see eventual judgments.[/quote]

Full story and supporting stats at http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/police-brutality-lawsuits-cities-20150504
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2015 10:29AM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--jKRLKanxY

I thought I would add this simply because of all the racial nonsense and opinion being bandied about.

Turns out there are actually people who STUDY this stuff! Yea really empirically study it. Do some research BEYOND the slogans and chants and the bias we ALL have and you will find it fascinating.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 5, 2015 05:24PM)
I think you can draw two obvious conclusions from that video.

1. White people are bigots cause they shoot black people more often.

2. Black people are victims because they've been taught by white people to shoot black people more often.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 5, 2015 05:35PM)
That whole episode was pretty good and eye opening.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 5, 2015 06:25PM)
I think the elite's plan of creating a scientific dictatorship to rule the entire world using advanced sciences including gassing whole populations from a world squadron of aircraft called the freemasonry of airmen, is a good idea.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (May 6, 2015 01:50AM)
[quote]On May 5, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think the elite's plan of creating a scientific dictatorship to rule the entire world using advanced sciences including gassing whole populations from a world squadron of aircraft called the freemasonry of airmen, is a good idea. [/quote]

So, seven billion people is too many, and you think it's a good idea to "cull the herd"?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 6, 2015 11:42AM)
[quote]On May 6, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On May 5, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think the elite's plan of creating a scientific dictatorship to rule the entire world using advanced sciences including gassing whole populations from a world squadron of aircraft called the freemasonry of airmen, is a good idea. [/quote]

So, seven billion people is too many, and you think it's a good idea to "cull the herd"? [/quote]

I think it's the only way to stop global climate change, or, as some like to call it, end times.
Message: Posted by: acesover (May 6, 2015 12:12PM)
Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man...The Shadow Knows.
Message: Posted by: NYCTwister (May 6, 2015 03:08PM)
[quote]On May 6, 2015, rockwall wrote:
[quote]On May 6, 2015, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On May 5, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think the elite's plan of creating a scientific dictatorship to rule the entire world using advanced sciences including gassing whole populations from a world squadron of aircraft called the freemasonry of airmen, is a good idea. [/quote]

So, seven billion people is too many, and you think it's a good idea to "cull the herd"? [/quote]

I think it's the only way to stop global climate change, or, as some like to call it, end times. [/quote]

That's a joke, right?
Message: Posted by: DonDriver (May 6, 2015 04:56PM)
Baltimore is my home town.I left Baltimore about 1977.I now live in Tennessee.I have a trip booked to go visit Baltimore the end of June for 10 days.I'll be staying at a hotel near the harbor.Can't wait to get my mouth into a Maryland crab cake.I'm sure all will be fine.

Baltimore has a very rich magic history that I can say I had a small part of.Go read about it here:

http://themagicofbaltimore.blogspot.com/

I'm sure you'll find out things you never knew and you'll find interesting..

Don
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 21, 2015 05:23PM)
"Grand Jury Indicts Six Officers in Death of Freddie Gray"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/21/officers-indicted-in-death-freddie-gray/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/21/freddie_gray_grand_jury_indictments_six_officers_indicted_marilyn_mosby.html
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 21, 2015 08:25PM)
[quote]On May 21, 2015, balducci wrote:
"Grand Jury Indicts Six Officers in Death of Freddie Gray"

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/21/officers-indicted-in-death-freddie-gray/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/21/freddie_gray_grand_jury_indictments_six_officers_indicted_marilyn_mosby.html [/quote]

Covering all your bases? ;)
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 21, 2015 08:41PM)
Yup, pretty much. Trying to short circuit comments that the reporting is partisan left or partisan right.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 21, 2015 08:42PM)
Now there won't be anymore riots unless they're acquitted (no justice no peace) or convicted (celebration) or settle (sold out).
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 21, 2015 09:30PM)
Well, hopefully the scenarios you list describe what is necessary but not sufficient for riots.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 22, 2015 12:55AM)
If they get the death sentence, I wonder if Doug would like them to get the electric chair, pull the switch and gleefully watch their eyes boil as usual.
Message: Posted by: RNK (May 22, 2015 07:29AM)
[quote]On May 21, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Now there won't be anymore riots unless they're acquitted (no justice no peace) or convicted (celebration) or settle (sold out). [/quote]

There will be no more riots because the Rioters have not been getting paid as promised! Apparently in Ferguson the rioters are ticked off because they did not get paid as promised. Just google rioter not getting paid in Ferguson and you can see the articles for yourself.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 22, 2015 10:31AM)
Actual source for that assertion?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 22, 2015 11:28AM)
[quote]On May 22, 2015, tommy wrote:
If they get the death sentence, I wonder if Doug would like them to get the electric chair, pull the switch and gleefully watch their eyes boil as usual.[/quote]

ROFLMFAO!!! ~TZZZZZT!~ :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 22, 2015 11:30AM)
[quote]On May 22, 2015, tommy wrote:
If they get the death sentence, I wonder if Doug would like them to get the electric chair, pull the switch and gleefully watch their eyes boil as usual. [/quote]

Right up until someone saw it done then not so much.

I have met those who are in charge of such things and none take pleasure in it.
Message: Posted by: RNK (May 22, 2015 03:20PM)
[quote]On May 22, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Actual source for that assertion? [/quote]

There are many sources listed in google. Just type:

Ferguson Rioter Mad they are not getting paid

and the articles will show up. I am not going to copy and paste them all. I just googled it and the articles are still there.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 22, 2015 05:01PM)
So it is my job to back up your assertion?

Google Ancient Astronaut Theory and see what comes up.

And do you understand the difference in a rioter and a protester?
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 22, 2015 09:37PM)
[quote]On May 22, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
...
And do you understand the difference in a rioter and a protester? [/quote]

In Ferguson? Ummm, no, not really.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 22, 2015 10:31PM)
There were good people of conscious in there.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 23, 2015 08:44AM)
[quote]On May 22, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
There were good people of conscious in there. [/quote]

Who did nothing to stop police from being abused and businesses and property from being destroyed. I wonder if that's on their conscience? If they were there, they were part of the problem.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 23, 2015 10:17AM)
Dude is everyone that attends a soccer match part of the problem during a riot? There is a group of hooligans that start most of those things at soccer matches. Not everyone in the crowd is a rioter.

As for this you now want private citizens to somehow put down a riot?

See we have the right to peaceful assembly. They exercised that right. Now because someone else comes along and riots they are part of the problem? Then now because they didn't put down the riot they are part of the problem. Wow. Nice. I am going to go WAY out on a limb here and say that it hardly seems fair.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 23, 2015 04:10PM)
I'd hardly compare it to a soccer match, where the anticipation is that there won't be a problem. If people congregate for the reasons that they did so in Ferguson and Baltimore, they could pretty much count on the fact that there would be trouble. Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem? If anything they just continue to fan the flames.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 23, 2015 04:23PM)
What problem?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 23, 2015 04:29PM)
[quote]On May 23, 2015, tommy wrote:
What problem? [/quote]

If you don't know, it's probably fruitless to try to explain it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 23, 2015 04:56PM)
Would it be more or less fruitful to riot if you did or didn’t know the problem?
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 23, 2015 08:21PM)
[quote]On May 23, 2015, tommy wrote:
Would it be more or less fruitful to riot if you did or didn’t know the problem? [/quote]

I'm pretty sure most of the trouble makers are there just for the riot.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 23, 2015 08:34PM)
I think the cops are the trouble makers in these cases and it depends on if they like trouble or not as to if it solves the problem.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 24, 2015 07:47AM)
[quote]On May 23, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem?
[/quote]

See, the way I figure it is simple: If you are AT HOME, and NOT out "assembling", it is MOST likely you will NOT be shot dead! Or arrested. Or beat up and put in a van. How many time do I have to say this?

Stay the F- [i]home![/i]

Doug
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 24, 2015 09:20AM)
[quote]On May 23, 2015, tommy wrote:
I think the cops are the trouble makers in these cases and it depends on if they like trouble or not as to if it solves the problem. [/quote]

You're joking, right?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 24, 2015 10:40AM)
[quote]On May 24, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On May 23, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem?
[/quote]

See, the way I figure it is simple: If you are AT HOME, and NOT out "assembling", it is MOST likely you will NOT be shot dead! Or arrested. Or beat up and put in a van. How many time do I have to say this?

Stay the F- [i]home![/i]


Doug [/quote]


And if you give up you're freedom of speech, you'll never be sued for slander, too!
Message: Posted by: balducci (May 24, 2015 10:49AM)
[quote]On May 24, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On May 23, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem?
[/quote]

See, the way I figure it is simple: If you are AT HOME, and NOT out "assembling", it is MOST likely you will NOT be shot dead! Or arrested. Or beat up and put in a van. How many time do I have to say this?

Stay the F- [i]home![/i]

Doug [/quote]
Well, that is just asking for trouble.

https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/who_will_protect_you_from_the_police_the_rise_of_government_sanctioned
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 24, 2015 12:47PM)
[quote]On May 24, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 24, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On May 23, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem?
[/quote]

See, the way I figure it is simple: If you are AT HOME, and NOT out "assembling", it is MOST likely you will NOT be shot dead! Or arrested. Or beat up and put in a van. How many time do I have to say this?

Stay the F- [i]home![/i]


Doug [/quote]


And if you give up you're freedom of speech, you'll never be sued for slander, too! [/quote]


*your (of course)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 24, 2015 12:52PM)
So I guess the idea is to give up your freedom because others misbehave. Don't wear that skirt or you are asking for it.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 24, 2015 01:04PM)
You don't have to give up your freedoms, but rather choose safe and responsible ways to utilize them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 24, 2015 01:25PM)
Stay inside Don't assemble. You have freedom just so you use it in certain ways. It is not illegal but you will be based a rioter just because others do. Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory?
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 24, 2015 05:17PM)
Not at all. There are times we require people to stay inside. For example, during times of emergency we may put curfews in place. One is not a rioter simply because they assemble, but I think there is an expectation of PEACEFUL assembly. If you start to loot and block passage via roads, then you have become a mob and are a rioter.

Freedom still requires responsibility and limits. Freedom does not mean "anything goes".
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 24, 2015 06:24PM)
Historically, civil disobedience and organized protest have been VERY effective in changing oppressive conditions. The idea that protests "don't do any good" is simply incorrect.

I think the American Founding Fathers would agree. As would the heroes of the civil rights movement.

Very often protests bring attention to wrongs and problems that would have otherwise been ignored or swept under the carpet.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 24, 2015 06:37PM)
Yes they do and have. But they can also have a negative affect if people use it as an excuse to commit crimes and put others at danger, which we have been seeing a lot of lately.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 24, 2015 07:04PM)
So why curb the rights of those who obey the law? That is as stupid as taking away guns from law abiding citizens because some use them badly.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 24, 2015 07:08PM)
I'm not sure how you would define "curbing" rights, and I know from past experience if I respond based upon how I perceive it, you are VERY quick to jump down my throat. My only suggestion was that people have a responsibility to express their opinions wisely. There are consequences for bad behavior, and unfortunately the good folks usually have to suffer for the actions of a few bad ones.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 24, 2015 07:20PM)
No I am not joking; Cops murdering people causes trouble, that is self evident.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 24, 2015 10:27PM)
Anybody murdering anyone causes trouble. When someone dies while resisting arrest or committing a crime, it's tragic, but is it murder? It's not an easy job when you are charged with looking out for the safety of the general public.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 24, 2015 11:35PM)
I don't dispute that.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 25, 2015 01:40AM)
Anybody murdering anyone doesn't cause trouble. Cops murdering people causes trouble, that is self evident. Open your eyes and look at the protests over cops murdering people. No one riots over a magician murdering somebody.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 25, 2015 01:46AM)
Or a gang member
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 25, 2015 01:49AM)
What they riot about is the abuse of power more or less.

Let them eat cake.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 25, 2015 09:41AM)
[quote]On May 24, 2015, balducci wrote:
[quote]On May 24, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On May 23, 2015, NicholasD wrote:
Just because they have the right to assemble doesn't mean that it's always the wise thing to do. Does anyone really believe that these types of protests do anything to solve the problem?
[/quote]

See, the way I figure it is simple: If you are AT HOME, and NOT out "assembling", it is MOST likely you will NOT be shot dead! Or arrested. Or beat up and put in a van. How many time do I have to say this?

Stay the F- [i]home![/i]

Doug [/quote]
Well, that is just asking for trouble.

https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/who_will_protect_you_from_the_police_the_rise_of_government_sanctioned [/quote]


Aww, SNAP! Well then. ROFLMAO! Then gather, assemble, PROTEST! This could be the beginning of a nasty civil war...

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 10:53AM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Or a gang member [/quote]

Well there is sort of that non stop back and forth thing they got going now for decades that is not a riot but far more people get killed during.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 11:02AM)
[quote]On May 24, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
I'm not sure how you would define "curbing" rights, and I know from past experience if I respond based upon how I perceive it, you are VERY quick to jump down my throat. My only suggestion was that people have a responsibility to express their opinions wisely. There are consequences for bad behavior, and unfortunately the good folks usually have to suffer for the actions of a few bad ones. [/quote]

What I mean by curbing rights is that if I have the right to assemble, and there is NO riot yet why am I then lumped in with rioters?

Your last sentence is the one I am confused about and in the spirit of not jumping I would like you to simply explain it. Because to me it is sort of as I said taking away guns from law abiding citizenry just because of the actions of a few. I am not so quick to give that a pass. Matter of fact the Constitution is designed to make certain that does not happen.

There are consequences for bad behavior. I am all for that. But if I am simply there under the law 100% why should I suffer any of those?

Now understand I am not saying they were protesting anything I agree with. I am not saying I agree with the protesters. I am only saying that indeed the protesters (Pre riot.) have that right and it should not be curbed. People are allowed to protest things that I may not think need protesting. But to lump them all in the same category for convenience is not good. Eventually what can and can not be protested will be decided by the people being protested.

At least Spain has showed us a pretty good way to avoid protest riots. http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/12/europe/spain-hologram-protest/

But notice WHAT they are protesting exactly.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 25, 2015 11:18AM)
I think we are close to the same page in this one, Danny. When I said "unfortunately the good folks usually have to suffer for the actions of a few bad ones" I am not necessarily agreeing that this is good (hence the word "unfortunately"). Historically it has been a natural and expected outcome. One doofus decides to board a plane with explosives in his shoe and millions of folks have to take off their shoes at the airport. Excessive actions tend to be met with excessive responses, and those are not always reasonable.

Assembly can be peaceful and at the same time intimidating. I think some protesters rely on that. If I were a woman with a child in my car and I had to pass through a section of town where protesters were blocking traffic, using abusive and aggressive language, etc. I would feel threatened even though no actual "riot" was taking place. IMO, I think society has a greater responsibility to that woman than it has to the protesters, since the protesters have a variety of other less aggressive/intimidating options available to them.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 11:34AM)
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

See that part about "the right of the people peaceably to assemble"?

I am not sure which amendment it is but I am sure it is in the top...one. My problem as always is with monkeying around with the Bill of Rights. No Constitutional amendment gives her the right to pass down that specific street at that specific time. She has a LOT of alternate routes.

This REALLY is a big deal and I would defend any of the Bill of Rights so stringently. Second amendment, fourth, sixth amendment right to trial and so forth. We get to far afield from this and we really have no Constitution do we?

I am not jumping on you, but explaining my position.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 25, 2015 12:47PM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, Starrpower wrote:

Assembly can be peaceful and at the same time intimidating. I think some protesters rely on that. If I were a woman with a child in my car and I had to pass through a section of town where protesters were blocking traffic, using abusive and aggressive language, etc. I would feel threatened even though no actual "riot" was taking place. IMO, I think society has a greater responsibility to that woman than it has to the protesters, since the protesters have a variety of other less aggressive/intimidating options available to them. [/quote]

[quote]On May 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:

No Constitutional amendment gives her the right to pass down that specific street at that specific time. She has a LOT of alternate routes.

[/quote]

She has the absolute right to travel without impediment from demonstrations.

Although people have a right to assemble, the government also has the responsibility and right to maintain order. The two rights are often at odds, and the right of assembly does not always provide complete freedom to do so. The right of assembly never guarantees freedom of expression under all times and circumstances because the government can limit the time, place, and manner of assembly to protect the public good. Obstruction of traffic, breaches of the peace, and seizure of a public facility are also not covered under the First Amendment clause.

The protesters do not have the right to impede the flow of traffic.

They have a LOT of other places to express their dissatisfaction.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 01:07PM)
Where is that right in the constitution exactly?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 25, 2015 01:46PM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Where is that right in the constitution exactly? [/quote]

Where is the right to obstruct the flow of traffic in the constitution, exactly?

All municipalities that I am aware of require a permit to parade in the public thoroughfares.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 01:54PM)
I never made the claim anyone had the right to obstruct anything.

You asserted one right was more important than another. I am curious the place I can find said right.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 25, 2015 02:22PM)
People sometimes forget that this nation arose from public protests, petitions of grievances and civil disobedience.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 02:24PM)
Yea I was slow walking there.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 25, 2015 02:26PM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
I never made the claim anyone had the right to obstruct anything.

You asserted one right was more important than another. I am curious the place I can find said right. [/quote]

[quote]On May 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:

See that part about "the right of the people peaceably to assemble"?

No Constitutional amendment gives her the right to pass down that specific street at that specific time. She has a LOT of alternate routes.

[/quote]

I inferred that you thought the freedom to assemble trumped the free flow of traffic.

I did not assert that one right was more important than another.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 02:34PM)
I inferred no such thing.

I am still waiting to see where the "right" you assert is so I can read it. Mine is documented in the first amendment. Fairly clearly.

And the right to drive down a specific street at a specific time is where again?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 25, 2015 03:09PM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
I inferred no such thing.

I am still waiting to see where the "right" you assert is so I can read it. Mine is documented in the first amendment. Fairly clearly.

And the right to drive down a specific street at a specific time is where again? [/quote]

Once again, where does the first amendment freedom to assemble clause give anyone the right to block free travel?

If you want to get technical, the commerce clause of the constitution prohibits infringement on any legal movement of any legal thing or any legal person and its mode of transportation. I don't see any restrictions on what street and at what time.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 03:18PM)
Where did I claim it did?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 25, 2015 03:23PM)
Kabbalah-

I don't know what Constitution you're talking about because the Commerce Clause in the US Constitution doesn't say what you claim. It simply gives Congress the power to regulate [b]interstate[/b] commerce.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:[3]

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 03:56PM)
Yea Bob that was why I used the exact wording of amendment one.

I didn't think the commerce clause said any such thing either.

I never said anyone can block traffic with a protest.

I am just trying to get clear on what rights are. I do not want ANY of the Bill of Rights eroded in the name of security. Not the 4th or 6th amendments and certainly not the 1st or 2nd. All are equally important All must be defended in their entirety. Even if we may not agree with those who are exercising those rights. As a matter of fact that is probably when it is most important.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 25, 2015 05:18PM)
[quote]On May 25, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Kabbalah-

I don't know what Constitution you're talking about because the Commerce Clause in the US Constitution doesn't say what you claim. It simply gives Congress the power to regulate [b]interstate[/b] commerce.

[/quote]

And part of that is not transportation?

And, given the broad interpretations of the clause, [b]intrastate[/b] free travel is subject to its scope.

Let's look at it from a simple point of view...

Suppose I want to place an order with Amazon today. On my way to work, I am hindered by protesters on the road, thus, not allowing me to get to work.

Now, I can't afford to make my purchase, from an out-of-state vendor, due to loss of income from an unexcused absence secondary to the infringement on my travel.

Let's say I am an investment banker, and the protesters cost my clients and myself thousands of dollars, because I could not engage in my business across state or national boundaries.

Assume demonstrators block a railroad, so my goods cannot leave Maryland.

You get the idea (or not).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 25, 2015 05:52PM)
My guess is your formal training is not in Constitutional law? Or for that matter any sort of law?

At least in America?

I will let the lawyers answer tgis but my first reaction was to laugh.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 28, 2015 09:53PM)
Good thing they got those cops in check in Baltimore!

"Baltimore Gets Bloodier As Arrests Drop Post-Freddie Gray"
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/05/28/baltimore-residents-fearful-amid-rash-of-homicides/

"Police used to sit on every corner, on the top of the block. These days? They’re nowhere.”"

They would just sit on the corner? It's a good thing they aren't doing THAT anymore!

"“Our officers tell me that when officers pull up, they have 30 to 50 people surrounding them at any time,” Batts said."

Well, it's good the citizens are keeping a closer eye on those racist cops now!

"The mayor said her office is “examining” the relationship between the homicide spike and the dwindling arrest rate."

Relationship? Who cares?!? The important thing is that they aren't falsely arresting so many people! Every improvement comes with a minor cost.

"“Usually, you can’t walk up and down the street drinking or smoking weed. Now, people are everywhere smoking weed, and police just ride by, look at you, and keep going. "

Well, I know there are plenty here who will applaud this improvement!
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 28, 2015 10:06PM)
The Baltimore prosecutor is an idiot with a big mouth. Seems to me she should have been seeking justice period, not for a thug with record a mile long. As it is she'll probably have to recuse herself and the defense will probably get a change of venue.

As for the cops, why should they do any more than follow their job description when the city officials don't have their backs.

Rudy Guiliani should be mayor. Baltimore would straighten up fast.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 29, 2015 04:51AM)
The problem with that is that the reduction in crime in NYC started with Giuliani's predecessor, David Dinkins. But he DID support abortion rights, gay rights, and gun control, so overall he was a pretty good mayor.

Not suprising to see the "thug" euphemism again. Why not say it like it is? They killed an unarmed black man. His prior record did not strip him of his constitutionally protected right to due process and equal protection under the law.

Does completely ignoring those fundamental principles of justice, which are a cornerstone of our democracy, and calling the prosecutor "an idiot with a big mouth," constitute intelligent legal argument in your considered judgement?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 29, 2015 06:37AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

Not suprising to see the "thug" euphemism again. Why not say it like it is? [b]They killed an unarmed black man.[/b] [/quote]

He had a knife, so he was not "unarmed."

Also, judge and jury much?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 29, 2015 08:26AM)
Sorry guys. I ain't PC, so I call it like I see it. A THUG is a THUG. Black, white, brown, yellow...makes no difference. Act like a thug? I'm calling him a thug! Maybe [i]sub-human[/i] is a more accurate term.

Doug
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 29, 2015 08:34AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

Not suprising to see the "thug" euphemism again. Why not say it like it is? [b]They killed an unarmed black man.[/b] [/quote]

He had a knife, so he was not "unarmed."

Also, judge and jury much? [/quote]

He had a legal pocket knife. He did not take it out or brandish it.

No, I'm not judge and jury at all- yet YOU have no problem insinuating that he was illegally armed.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 29, 2015 08:46AM)
Calling the prosecutor an idiot with a big mouth may not be an intelligent legal argument, but it gets pretty close to the truth.
And, the word "thug" is not a euphemism, it doesn't describe someone's race, it's a word that accurately describes a criminal.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 29, 2015 08:48AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Sorry guys. I ain't PC, so I call it like I see it. A THUG is a THUG. Black, white, brown, yellow...makes no difference. Act like a thug? I'm calling him a thug! Maybe [i]sub-human[/i] is a more accurate term.

Doug [/quote]

Hi Doug,

It has nothing to do with being PC or not and I believe you when you say race doesn't make a difference to you. But that's not the case with everyone. Some only use the word "thug" as a euphemism for the "N" word. Rarely, if ever, do those folks use it in reference to whites. Like those criminals in Texas who shot up Waco. They were predominantly white and were mostly referred to by the romantic epithet "outlaw bikers." Not "thugs."

Because, again, they were mostly white.

But hat really got me angry about Nicholas's post was his utter disregard of the fact that the victim had committed no crime and yet was subjected to brutality of such force that his spine was nearly severed before he died of his massive injuries suffered while in police custody.

And yet you have guys here CONVICTING the deceased of "something, because he was a thug." Not because he did anything at all to deserve what happened to him. Nicholas seems to think that if a "thug" has a past criminal record, he is not entitled to justice.

There's a little document called the US Constitution he might take a look at.

And finally, note that the accused officer are being afforded all of the rights given to criminal defendants our country. They have exercised their right to retain counsel of their choice, and are entitled to a fair and speedy trial before a jury of their peers.

You know, the same rights that were denied to Freddie.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 29, 2015 09:50AM)
Good point, Bob! Yikes. We don't deal with racism up here in Maine. Unless the French Canadians lose it. Then...I give up. There is almost NO ethnicity here in Augusta. In fact, I don't think there are any JEWISH people either. It is so strange. I grew up in a multicultural environment.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 29, 2015 11:53AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 29, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

Not suprising to see the "thug" euphemism again. Why not say it like it is? [b]They killed an unarmed black man.[/b] [/quote]

He had a knife, so he was not "unarmed."

Also, judge and jury much? [/quote]

He had a legal pocket knife. He did not take it out or brandish it.

No, I'm not judge and jury at all- yet YOU have no problem insinuating that he was illegally armed. [/quote]

I didn't insinuate anything.

I stated a fact. Gray was armed with a knife. Period.
Message: Posted by: NicholasD (May 29, 2015 06:09PM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 29, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Sorry guys. I ain't PC, so I call it like I see it. A THUG is a THUG. Black, white, brown, yellow...makes no difference. Act like a thug? I'm calling him a thug! Maybe [i]sub-human[/i] is a more accurate term.

Doug [/quote]

Hi Doug,

It has nothing to do with being PC or not and I believe you when you say race doesn't make a difference to you. But that's not the case with everyone. Some only use the word "thug" as a euphemism for the "N" word. Rarely, if ever, do those folks use it in reference to whites. Like those criminals in Texas who shot up Waco. They were predominantly white and were mostly referred to by the romantic epithet "outlaw bikers." Not "thugs."

Because, again, they were mostly white.

But hat really got me angry about Nicholas's post was his utter disregard of the fact that the victim had committed no crime and yet was subjected to brutality of such force that his spine was nearly severed before he died of his massive injuries suffered while in police custody.

And yet you have guys here CONVICTING the deceased of "something, because he was a thug." Not because he did anything at all to deserve what happened to him. Nicholas seems to think that if a "thug" has a past criminal record, he is not entitled to justice.

There's a little document called the US Constitution he might take a look at.

And finally, note that the accused officer are being afforded all of the rights given to criminal defendants our country. They have exercised their right to retain counsel of their choice, and are entitled to a fair and speedy trial before a jury of their peers.

You know, the same rights that were denied to Freddie. [/quote]

If you believe that Freddie's rights were denied, it seems that you've already formed the opinion the officers are guilty.

In a roundabout way, I guess what I've been trying to say is that in a confrontation between police and an armed individual with a criminal record who was running away from the police, a lot of people are giving the benefit of the doubt to the one with the history of criminal activity. Was he resisting arrest? If yes, how strongly? Questions that hopefully will be answered in the trial.