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Topic: Happy May Day!
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:43AM)
The international day recognizing workers:
[youtube]LibrVBAooRk[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 10:44AM)
Tuesday was the international day of mourning for workers killed on site. Tragically, we had a [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fatality-probe-underway-after-worker-buried-in-sewer-trench-1.3053375]casual worker die on a construction site[/url] in Edmonton that day.

It is the day to celebrate labour. But let us not forget that feeding ourselves and our families comes with risk.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 1, 2015 12:17PM)
Doesn't everything?
Message: Posted by: irossall (May 1, 2015 12:22PM)
I wonder what destruction and rioting will happen this year?
May Day and Freddie Gray Day. Could this be Double Trouble?
-Iven
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 1, 2015 12:23PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Tuesday was the international day of mourning for workers killed on site. Tragically, we had a [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fatality-probe-underway-after-worker-buried-in-sewer-trench-1.3053375]casual worker die on a construction site[/url] in Edmonton that day.

It is the day to celebrate labour. But let us not forget that feeding ourselves and our families comes with risk. [/quote]
It doesn't need to. All accidents are preventable.
Ridding ourselves of the horrible mentality that getting hurt is part of the job is the first step in ending these work related deaths.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 12:50PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Tuesday was the international day of mourning for workers killed on site. Tragically, we had a [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fatality-probe-underway-after-worker-buried-in-sewer-trench-1.3053375]casual worker die on a construction site[/url] in Edmonton that day.

It is the day to celebrate labour. But let us not forget that feeding ourselves and our families comes with risk. [/quote]
It doesn't need to. All accidents are preventable.
Ridding ourselves of the horrible mentality that getting hurt is part of the job is the first step in ending these work related deaths. [/quote]


+1
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 12:54PM)
Sorry.

Labor Day is the first Monday in September.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 01:11PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
Sorry.

Labor Day is the first Monday in September. [/quote]

True. And today is May Day. Why are you sorry?
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 01:22PM)
I am sorry some celebrate a socialist/communist *holiday*.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 01:26PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
I am sorry some celebrate a socialist/communist *holiday*. [/quote]

I'm sorry to read empty-headed and bigoted comments.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 1, 2015 01:48PM)
Http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/victims-of-communism-day-2/?postshare=321430491883386

"May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their [authority]. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes’ millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined."
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 1, 2015 01:58PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/victims-of-communism-day-2/?postshare=321430491883386

"May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their [authority]. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes’ millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined." [/quote]
+1
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 1, 2015 02:08PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/victims-of-communism-day-2/?postshare=321430491883386

"May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their [authority]. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes’ millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined." [/quote]

You quote a man who is quoting himself? Hmm.

[url=http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1450912/May-Day]Encyclopedia Britannica[/url] has a different story of the origins of May Day.

[quote]May Day, in medieval and modern Europe, holiday (May 1) for the celebration of the return of spring. The observance probably originated in ancient agricultural rituals, and the Greeks and Romans held such festivals. Although later practices varied widely, the celebrations came to include the gathering of wildflowers and green branches, the weaving of floral garlands, the crowning of a May king and queen, and the setting up of a decorated May tree, or Maypole, around which people danced. Such rites originally may have been intended to ensure fertility for crops and, by extension, for livestock and humans, but in most cases this significance was gradually lost, so that the practices survived largely as popular festivities. Among the many superstitions associated with May Day was the belief that washing the face with dew on the morning of May 1 would beautify the skin. Because the Puritans of New England considered the celebrations of May Day to be licentious and pagan, they forbade its observance, and the holiday never became an important part of American culture. In the 20th century, traditional May Day celebrations declined in many countries as May 1 became associated with the international holiday honouring workers and the labour movement.[/quote]

It is true that the connection to Labour came from an international federation of trade unions and their supporters (many of these were socialists) to commemorate the 1886 Haymarket riot in Chicago, where the police turned on striking workers, killing one worker. At a peaceful protest the next day, police opened fire into the crowd. 7 police officers were killed and 60 were injured; accurate counts of dead protesters were never made available, but 4-8 were killed and 30-40 were wounded according to Britannica. In backlash, four known anarchists--who were not even present at the riot--were executed. One other defendant committed suicide; Clarence Darrow was recruited to save the final three from the death penalty.

And the issue? These horrible trade unionists wanted their work-day reduced to 8 hours.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 02:14PM)
Have a nice day anyway.
Message: Posted by: Payne (May 1, 2015 02:17PM)
[quote]
On May 1, 2015, rockwall wrote:

Http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/victims-of-communism-day-2/?postshare=321430491883386

"May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their [authority]. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes’ millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined."

[/quote]

So by this logic, or lack thereof, you shouldn't be celebrating Christmas because it was originally a pagan holiday with a totally (well nearly) different meaning.

May Day originally was an ancient spring festival celebrated in what is now Europe. It has become a traditional spring holiday in many cultures. Dances, singing, and cake are usually part of the celebrations as well as the traditional May Pole.

It was usurped in part in the early years of the 20th century by some Communist regimes. But since few of these guys are around these days to hold parades and exhibitions of military might it has become a day for workers to unite and show there solidarity. As well as sing, eat cake and dance around a May Pole.

Things change and evolve over time, at least outside of Utah, and it's best if you can keep up with the rest of us in the civilized world. :)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 07:56PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
I am sorry some celebrate a socialist/communist *holiday*. [/quote]

I'm sorry to read empty-headed and bigoted comments. [/quote]

+1
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 08:03PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
I am sorry some celebrate a socialist/communist *holiday*. [/quote]

I'm sorry to read empty-headed and bigoted comments. [/quote]

+1 [/quote]

I am bigoted?

I only stated my opinion.

Seems if anyone is intolerant, it is not me!
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:12PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
I am sorry some celebrate a socialist/communist *holiday*. [/quote]

Among others, the following nations recognize May Day as a day of respect to the struggle of workers around the world for fairness: (something that eludes some members of this board):

Egypt, Argentina, The Dominican Republic, Haiti, Panama, Peru, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Cambodia, India, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Macau, Malaysia, Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Palestine, The Phillipines, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland , France, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Norway, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey.

I know, Commie dupes, all.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:14PM)
[quote]
Seems if anyone is intolerant, it is not me![/quote]
He didn't say intolerant, he said bigoted.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 08:24PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Seems if anyone is intolerant, it is not me![/quote]

He didn't say intolerant, he said bigoted. [/quote]

big·ot·ed
ˈbiɡədəd/
adjective

having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced [b]intolerance of the opinions of others[/b].
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 08:34PM)
Noun big·ot ˈbi-gət
especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 08:43PM)
I don't hate anyone, nor do I refuse to consider others opinions.

I do not, however, have to agree with them.

That disagreement constitutes bigotry?
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 1, 2015 08:59PM)
Nah you're just right-handed, while many on this thread are left-handed. :-)
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 1, 2015 09:35PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Seems if anyone is intolerant, it is not me![/quote]

He didn't say intolerant, he said bigoted. [/quote]

big·ot·ed
ˈbiɡədəd/
adjective

having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced [b]intolerance of the opinions of others[/b]. [/quote]

Contrary to the fantasy of the extreme right, intolerance of intolerance is NOT bigotry.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 09:37PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Bob1Dog wrote:
Nah you're just right-handed, while many on this thread are left-handed. :-) [/quote]

This is the thing about the left.

They are the first to espouse acceptance of *** near anything, until you have views different from theirs.

ETA: See Bob's post above.
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 1, 2015 09:46PM)
Yup!

May Day! May Day! May Day!
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 1, 2015 10:18PM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
Noun big·ot ˈbi-gət
especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group) [/quote]

Karl Marx for instance.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 1, 2015 11:12PM)
Look, K, I understand you hate workers who stand up for themselves, I get it. And you're certainly allowed to express your bigoted view. But please stop whining when others call you out on it.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (May 1, 2015 11:29PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Look, K, I understand you hate workers who stand up for themselves, I get it. And you're certainly allowed to express your bigoted view. But please stop whining when others call you out on it. [/quote]

Sorry Jack.

Unlike you, I hate no one. And, you are certainly allowed your hatred of the businessmen who made this nation.

(I know, on the backs of oppressed workers.)

Yes, someone does need to stop whining.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 12:05AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, Kabbalah wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, landmark wrote:
[quote]
Seems if anyone is intolerant, it is not me![/quote]

He didn't say intolerant, he said bigoted. [/quote]

big·ot·ed
ˈbiɡədəd/
adjective

having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced [b]intolerance of the opinions of others[/b]. [/quote]

Contrary to the fantasy of the extreme right, intolerance of intolerance is NOT bigotry. [/quote]

It sounds like it would be from that definition, though, actually.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 2, 2015 01:01AM)
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"?
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 01:11AM)
Who, me?
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 2, 2015 03:44AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"? [/quote]
Jack, you may be the elephant in the room. You wished us a Happy May Day, when there is indeed nothing happy about it.
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 2, 2015 03:47AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Look, K, I understand you hate workers who stand up for themselves, I get it. And you're certainly allowed to express your bigoted view. But please stop whining when others call you out on it. [/quote]
Just because he doesn't agree with you, he's bigoted! Yikes!
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 2, 2015 07:41AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, Bob1Dog wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"? [/quote]
You wished us a Happy May Day, when there is indeed nothing happy about it. [/quote]
As I pointed out, it is an official government holiday in literally dozens and dozens of capitalist countries.
Since working people created this country, I thought some might like to join in the celebration.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 2, 2015 08:18AM)
[quote]On May 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

...Contrary to the fantasy of the extreme right, intolerance of intolerance is NOT bigotry. [/quote]

It sounds like it would be from that definition, though, actually. [/quote]

Karl Popper put it this way. Ir's known as the Pardox of Tolerance.

[quote]... the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.[/quote]

From: Karl Popper, [i]The Open Society and Its Enemies[/i] (1945), Vol. 1, Notes to the Chapters: Ch. 7, Note 4
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 2, 2015 08:35AM)
Karl Marx put it this way:

…the Jewish ***** [Ferdinand] Lassalle….It is now completely clear to me, that, as proven by the shape of his head and the growth of his hair, he stems from the Negroes who joined the march of Moses out of Egypt (if his mother or grandmother on his father’s side did not mate with a *****). Now this combination of Jewry and Germanism with the negroid basic substance must bring forth a peculiar product. The pushiness of this lad is also *****-like.

—Letter to Friedrich Engels, July 30, 1862

Indian society has no history at all, at least no known history. What we call its history is but the history of the successive intruders who founded their empires on the passive basis of that unresisting and unchanging society.

—The Future Results of British Rule in India, July 22, 1853

The French need a thrashing.

—Letter to Friedrich Engels, July 20, 1870

…the Spaniards are completely degenerated. But in the presence of a Mexican, a degenerated Spaniard constitutes an ideal. They have all the vices, arrogance, thuggery and quixoticism of the Spaniards to the third degree, but by no means all the solid things that they possess.

—Karl Marx’s Social and Political Thought, Volume 6

The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races.

—Neue Rheinische Zeitung, April 29, 1849

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. … We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate. … The god of the Jews has become secularized and has become the god of the world. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. … Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible….

http://takimag.com/article/was_karl_marx_a_dirty_filthy_rotten_bigot_jim_goad/print#axzz3YwhSv6FO
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 2, 2015 08:40AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

...Contrary to the fantasy of the extreme right, intolerance of intolerance is NOT bigotry. [/quote]

It sounds like it would be from that definition, though, actually. [/quote]

Karl Popper put it this way. Ir's known as the Pardox of Tolerance.

[quote]... the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.[/quote]

From: Karl Popper, [i]The Open Society and Its Enemies[/i] (1945), Vol. 1, Notes to the Chapters: Ch. 7, Note 4 [/quote]
Great post, Bob. Thankyou for sharing that.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 08:48AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 1, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

...Contrary to the fantasy of the extreme right, intolerance of intolerance is NOT bigotry. [/quote]

It sounds like it would be from that definition, though, actually. [/quote]

Karl Popper put it this way. Ir's known as the Pardox of Tolerance.

[quote]... the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.[/quote]

From: Karl Popper, [i]The Open Society and Its Enemies[/i] (1945), Vol. 1, Notes to the Chapters: Ch. 7, Note 4 [/quote]


Im not disagreeing with the philosophy; just noting an observation on the simplistic dictionary definition:


"having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others."


If someone, for instance, hates all people of a certain race and considers them sub-human, I would have an obstinate belief that my own (alternative) opinion is superior. And I would have a prejudiced intolerance of that person's opinion. So by that definition, I actually would, in fact, be considered bigoted.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 2, 2015 08:58AM)
That, of course, is why the definition is incomplete and very misleading.

The paradox of tolerance, of course, is just complementary to the paradox of freedom. Unrestricted freedom would result in the loss of freedom, for inevitably the strong and powerful would bully the weak and deprive them of their freedoms.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 09:23AM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"? [/quote]

I think I see more racism than you do in this society, since, if I recall correctly, your definition of racism specifically excludes any actions or beliefs of minorities, or that operate to the detriment of whites.

But while I agree wholeheartedly that racism is "in the room," I disagree with whether or not it's an elephant. I think that for the most part, people of any race who work hard and make good choices will probably do ok. I agree that some people, by the luck of their birth, will have it a lot easier than others. But one thing making a lot of money lets you do - rightly, IMO - is make your kids' lives easier than yours was.

A FAR bigger problem in general than racism is the systematic ingraining of an external locus of control into certain segments of the population by various others for various reasons. IMO, it's neither surprising nor coincidental that I can't name an Asian Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, on the one hand, and that roughly 30% of the students at UCLA, for instance, are Asian or Asian-American. Asians and Asian-Americans have, in many respects, faced as much or more racism more recently than other racial minorities, but that tends to get brushed aside by people who want to infer opportunities from results, i.e. their general success as a group essentially punishes them on an individual level ("Well, their situation can't be THAT bad; look how well so many of them are doing"). But that's what happens when group rights and group identity politics carries the day. It's OK in many intellectual circles, for instance, to discriminate against individual Asian students, because "we have enough Asians." Groups don't suffer from racism; individuals do. And when they tell you they don't - that they're doing just fine - that's just a symptom or just how bad it is - they're so victimized, they don't even see themselves as victims. Well, by God, we'd better fix THAT. If it didn't do such an amazing disservice to them, it'd be funny. that's all without getting into the "soft bigotry of low expectations," which is a terrible thing in its own right.

I'm more inclined to agree wit you about class differences. To the extent that there's a serious color problem in the USA, IMO the relevant colors are "green" and "no green." But if you're on the page that claims that Barack Obama's and Will Smith's and Chris Rock's kids need more of a leg up than the kids of some white Appalaichain coal miner because the latter are privileged members of a group that happens to do better on balance, then forget the same page...we're not even on the same book or in the same library, and IMO you're not only focusing on an "elephant" the size of a cat, you're missing the brontosaurus.

But I certainly am not disagreeing with the proposition that "racism in the USA still exists in the 21st century."
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 09:53AM)
To expand and clarify, I think that what happened in Baltimore is a tragedy and almost certainly a crime, and if it is, I'd like to see those involved punished to the fullest extent of the law. But IMO, the far bigger problem in inner-city Baltimore isn't stories like Freddie Gray's, which get everyone up in arms; it's the tens of thousands of kids who will drop out of school, have kids they can't afford, commit crimes and either end up in jail or prison or get arrest records that will keep them from getting jobs...all because they've been wrongly convinced that it doesn't matter what choices they make - they're screwed anyway.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 2, 2015 03:49PM)
[quote]On May 2, 2015, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On May 2, 2015, landmark wrote:
Tired, tired, tired argument. No, there's not an equivalence. No, the US fighting Nazis is not the equivalent of Nazism. No, the oppressed fighting oppressors is not the same as oppressors holding down the oppressed.

Really, I know it's only a magic board, but don't the word games get tiring? There's racism and classism everywhere in this society, and yet you all want to act as if the elephant is not in the room. Please, must we continue acting "as if"? [/quote]

I think I see more racism than you do in this society, since, if I recall correctly, your definition of racism specifically excludes any actions or beliefs of minorities, or that operate to the detriment of whites.

But while I agree wholeheartedly that racism is "in the room," I disagree with whether or not it's an elephant. I think that for the most part, people of any race who work hard and make good choices will probably do ok. I agree that some people, by the luck of their birth, will have it a lot easier than others. But one thing making a lot of money lets you do - rightly, IMO - is make your kids' lives easier than yours was.

A FAR bigger problem in general than racism is the systematic ingraining of an external locus of control into certain segments of the population by various others for various reasons. IMO, it's neither surprising nor coincidental that I can't name an Asian Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, on the one hand, and that roughly 30% of the students at UCLA, for instance, are Asian or Asian-American. Asians and Asian-Americans have, in many respects, faced as much or more racism more recently than other racial minorities, but that tends to get brushed aside by people who want to infer opportunities from results, i.e. their general success as a group essentially punishes them on an individual level ("Well, their situation can't be THAT bad; look how well so many of them are doing"). But that's what happens when group rights and group identity politics carries the day. It's OK in many intellectual circles, for instance, to discriminate against individual Asian students, because "we have enough Asians." Groups don't suffer from racism; individuals do. And when they tell you they don't - that they're doing just fine - that's just a symptom or just how bad it is - they're so victimized, they don't even see themselves as victims. Well, by God, we'd better fix THAT. If it didn't do such an amazing disservice to them, it'd be funny. that's all without getting into the "soft bigotry of low expectations," which is a terrible thing in its own right.

I'm more inclined to agree wit you about class differences. To the extent that there's a serious color problem in the USA, IMO the relevant colors are "green" and "no green." But if you're on the page that claims that Barack Obama's and Will Smith's and Chris Rock's kids need more of a leg up than the kids of some white Appalaichain coal miner because the latter are privileged members of a group that happens to do better on balance, then forget the same page...we're not even on the same book or in the same library, and IMO you're not only focusing on an "elephant" the size of a cat, you're missing the brontosaurus.

But I certainly am not disagreeing with the proposition that "racism in the USA still exists in the 21st century." [/quote]
When you say Asian do you mean Indians? Arabs? Orientals? Russians? Just looking for clarification to better understand your interesting post.
Message: Posted by: LobowolfXXX (May 2, 2015 04:14PM)
The classification they use is "Asian/Pacific Islander." There doesn't seem to be a separate classification for other groups from Asia, but there is an "international" classification which may include students from the Middle East. I teach a couple of classes on campus, and from a visual inspection (and having attended law school there) I can tell you that most UCLA students from Asia are more specifically from the Orient, but there are quite a few East Asians there, too; I just don't know if the latter are called "Asian" in their demographic list, or "international" or something else.

At any rate, if you only counted the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean students on campus, I have no doubt you'd find that they disproportionately represent the entire continent.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 2, 2015 05:02PM)
Thanks Lobo.
Message: Posted by: rockwall (May 3, 2015 10:37AM)
Celebrate it while you can.

Experts predict robots will take over 30% of our jobs by 2025

http://www.businessinsider.com/experts-predict-that-one-third-of-jobs-will-be-replaced-by-robots-2015-5
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 3, 2015 11:25AM)
What jobs?
Message: Posted by: Bob1Dog (May 3, 2015 12:13PM)
Do they have retired robots?
Message: Posted by: Destiny (May 3, 2015 12:37PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, Bob1Dog wrote:
Do they have retired robots? [/quote]

I don't intend retiring so I watch episodes of Futurama as research on what to expect.
Message: Posted by: Intrepid (May 3, 2015 03:28PM)
[quote]On May 3, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Celebrate it while you can.

Experts predict robots will take over 30% of our jobs by 2025

http://www.businessinsider.com/experts-predict-that-one-third-of-jobs-will-be-replaced-by-robots-2015-5 [/quote]

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? The article compares it to the advent of the machine age 200 years ago.