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Topic: Osterlind Breakthrough Card System
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 12, 2004 06:24PM)
I am sure there are many posts on this but I have to add my tuppence worth.

I got the DVD on Tuesday morning, and within 15 minutes I had learnt the system. This system has got to be worth the price of the whole DVD set!

If you don't know it then get it! The possibilities are endless!
Message: Posted by: Peo Olsson (Feb 12, 2004 11:47PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-12 19:24, salsa_dancer wrote:
...This system has got to be worth the price of the whole DVD set!!

If you don't know it then get it!! The possibilities are endless!!
[/quote]

It is... and you should.
I always carry this deck/system with me.
Message: Posted by: JamesCheung (Feb 13, 2004 12:04AM)
This is a dangerous, dangerous system. The things one can do with it are incredible. As with any stack though, the problem is arranging a borrowed deck into the order quickly and without arousing suspicion.
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 13, 2004 05:13AM)
Well, if I was presented with a borrowed deck I wouldn't use the breakthrough card system. There are plenty of effects that don't need it.

The easy answer here is to learn the simple setups as well.

I am going to memorize the deck in this order anyway. As Richard says, the system is with you forever, yet a memorized deck fails after a period of not using it.
Message: Posted by: slydini62 (Feb 13, 2004 06:56AM)
I've been using the Osterlind breakthrough system for a while. I carry a deck with me all the time! Thanks, Richard, for this wonderful, ingenious system!
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 13, 2004 07:51AM)
Gentlemen,

I can't tell you enough how gratifying it is to hear about magicians using the system with success. If I have one goal in my publishing career it is never to foster anything on the magic public that isn't practical and strong. I am so happy you have seen the potential of the system.

Richard
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Feb 13, 2004 09:13AM)
Richard Osterlind has dedicated an entire DVD on this system. The system is very simple to understand and learn, effective and powerful. Richard has shown a few effects based on his 'system'. One could create some great effects. Imagination would be the only limiting factor.

These who have no idea about the "Osterlind Breakthrough System" must see it for themselves. And of course Richard is an excellent teacher.

And three more words: Thank you, Richard.

:xmas:

P.S. Like all great magical effects, simplicity plays a great role. Richard's 'Torn and restored news paper' is one such effect.
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 13, 2004 10:30AM)
The torn and restored signed post-it note is ranking up there as one of the best impromptu effects I have seen.

I agree the T & R newspaper is great. I am not a fan of newspaper tearing but this one is very very good.
Message: Posted by: Ustaad (Feb 13, 2004 11:05AM)
I agree the torn-and-restored signed post-it note is one of the finest effects ever thought of.

In the packed four volumes of Osterlind's Mind Mysteries, there is something for everyone---new and different!

:xmas:
Message: Posted by: Julian Kestrel (Feb 13, 2004 12:49PM)
For my money, the four DVD set by Richard Osterlind was the best "investment" that I have made in the past three years. The quality of the effects and the level of thinking are unparalleled.

I loved seeing the subtleties for the bottle production. having only read the effect before in an earlier publication I was missing the subtleties. But now...wow!

As for the "Card System", it borders on being an assault weapon. Too much potential. Thanks, Richard


Julian Kestrel
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Feb 15, 2004 08:04AM)
This is for Richard or anyone else using this great system. Except for memorizing the deck, is there a formula for knowing the previous card in the deck? In all other cyclical stacks, the same formula works in reverse, but I don't see how in BCS.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: rgranville (Feb 15, 2004 09:18AM)
Of course it does. But you have to reverse [i]everything[/i]---that is, you have to reverse the [b]order[/b] of the calculations as well as the calculations themselves. I won't go into more detail in a public forum, but PM me if you still need help, Jeff.

And of course that invitation is open to any other Café member as well.

:pepper:
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Feb 16, 2004 08:02AM)
Rgranville,

I want to thank you publicly for helping me figure out the mathematics of the reverse calculations of the BCS. This takes a strong card system to new heights allowing movements, both forwards and backwards.

For anyone using BCS, contact rgranville for the mathematics of the reversed BCS. You won't regret it.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: rgranville (Feb 17, 2004 10:30AM)
Thanks for the kind words, Jeff. And because of them, I've never been more popular here... :goof:

Seriously, if anyone here [b]WHO ALREADY KNOWS[/b] the BCS wants to know how to reverse it and calculate the previous card, send me a PM. The little piece I wrote to send to anyone who sends me a PM intentionally DOESN'T contain enough detail to learn the BCS if you don't already know it.

After reading what I wrote, if you still need some help with the reverse calculations, send me another PM with proof that you know BCS, say listing any six cards in BCS order, and I'll send you a more detailed write-up with an example.
:carrot:
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Feb 17, 2004 09:23PM)
Rgranville,

Oops, sorry about that. I should have figured some would be looking for the setup for free. Anyway, you were a big help to me and I appreciate it. I would never have figured it out on my own.

Jeff
Message: Posted by: rgranville (Feb 17, 2004 09:45PM)
No apology necessary, Jeff. I don't believe anyone who has contacted me so far has been looking for the secret behind the BCS for free. In fact, quite the opposite. Several have volunteered proof that they know the system. I just wanted to make sure any future contacts understood I [b]AM NOT[/b] giving away the secrets behind the BCS.
:cucumber:
Message: Posted by: Mitchael (Feb 17, 2004 10:27PM)
I agree this is some great stuff. I had an idea concerning the torn-and-restored post-it note. Prior to the tearing both sides of the post-it note can be freely displayed. As a result, for those who know the effect, a special revelation can be revealed on the back of the signed post-it note after the restoration. A message that wasn't there prior to the tearing. So the restored post-it comes back with information such as a previously thought-of card that was forced on a spectator.

Just a thought. What do you think?

Thanks, Richard.
Message: Posted by: Joshua Lozoff (Feb 21, 2004 03:17PM)
I'd love to hear some original effects folks have come up with using the Breakthrough Card System. Not that Osterlind's effects aren't great, but what else are fellow magi doing with the system?

By the way, is anyone else using the Dolly Parton song "9 to 5" as a shortcut? Know what I mean?
Message: Posted by: Jeff (Feb 21, 2004 04:44PM)
Joshua,

You have my curiosity piqued. What is the Nine-to-Five shortcut?

Jeff
Message: Posted by: landmark (Feb 21, 2004 06:06PM)
Got it, Josh.

Jeff, he means the mnemonic that will help you make the first calculation for one of the values. Get it?

Jack Shalom
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 21, 2004 09:56PM)
That's much easier then the 95 Kings suggestion!

I learnt the system yesterday and tried it today on a friend asking them to cut the card to the face then bury it in the deck so I can not see it, etc. (I used the exact patter from the video.

Although my calculation were correct, I got it WRONG which leads me to believe that the spectator did the wrong thing whilst my back was turn.

Since I am strong believer in the 'there are no bad spectators just bad magicians', I was wondering how I can check that the spectator has followed my instructions.
Message: Posted by: chiz (Feb 22, 2004 03:43AM)
I did the card to pocket effect yesterday, but under slightly 'different' conditions.

I gave the deck to the spectator, and he did an overhand shuffle, then kind of a faro shuffle! I was a gutted he messed it up, but I saw it wasn't a thorough overhand shuffle, and the riffle was a perfect faro in the middle. So I quickly thought to myself that if he cuts the deck, and 'burns' the top card, then I can carry on as usual. Thank God I did see right, since the effect worked, and I got my most impossible piece of magic ive ever performed!
______
Ben
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 22, 2004 06:05AM)
I like the 9 to 5 Dolly Parton thing!

As for the spectator cutting correctly, I guess all I can say about that is it's how you handle the spectators. Please review my videos again and pay strict attention to the wording and what I say to the person before he does anything. Notice how I build up the importance of the effect (and their part in it) and how I demonstrate how he is to cut the deck. Also notice how I watch him cut it a few times before I turn my back. And also, and this wasn't pointed out on the videos, notice how I use my peripheral vision to kind of keep an eye on him.

Finally, and I guess this comes with experience, I try to keep them under control and not give them a chance to screw up. Again, this is hard to explain, but if you review all the performances, pay attention to how I am always saying, "Do this" or "do that". Even if it just means where to sit, how to stand, where to look. If you get the audience used to following your instructions before they have a chance to screw up, they probably won't! It also lets you figure out who the trouble makers are and lets you avoid them! (Beware of that old saying about making such a person your assistant and winning him over. Sometimes it can work, but if it doesn't you are in trouble!)

Richard
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 22, 2004 09:06AM)
I have had some BCS nightmares, too! So far I have not had the spectator shuffle BEFORE but after, meaning I had to go and reset. It caused me no end of hassle. Fancy letting these people touch the cards! lol

I also had a guy call out the next card during the effect when the spectator pulled out a handful of cards. I panicked, thinking he must know the system. As it turned out...coincidence.
Message: Posted by: John LeBlanc (Feb 22, 2004 10:14AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 07:05, osterlind wrote:
Finally, and I guess this comes with experience, I try to keep them under control and not give them a chance to screw up. Again, this is hard to explain, but if you review all the performances, pay attention to how I am always saying, "Do this" or "do that". Even if it just means where to sit, how to stand, where to look. If you get the audience used to following your instructions before they have a chance to screw up, they probably won't! [/quote]

That is excellent, excellent advice, Richard. Thanks for bringing that into the light.

Sometimes it's good to remember what it's like being a "normal person" (not a performer). Generally, most people are petrified at the thought of having to get up in front of an audience to begin with. No one wants to look stupid, especially in front of peers.

Just like anyone else's fear of public speaking, those willies come from the fear of the unknown. [i]"What's he going to do to me?"[/i]

Sometimes that fear causes them to not pay close attention to what you want them to do. Speaking slowly, carefully, and looking them in the eyes when its something important (like not screwing up a stack!) helps overcome their fears. They have clear, explicit instructions, so they feel better about the situation and are more likely to help you. (Which sure beats the alternative.)

This fear, by the way, is not entirely a bad thing. One of the greatest tricks ever is [i]"Ashes to Palm"[/i] (Harry Lorayne's [i]"The Magic Book,"[/i] among other places.) Eugene Burger's presentation (called [i]"Voodoo Ritual"[/i] in his book [i]"Intimate Power"[/i]) puts to good use a spectator's fear of screwing up as the perfect misdirection to do the deed. In the book, when Eugene asks the spectator to hold out her hands and she does so, he snaps slightly, [i]"No...like this!"[/i] and he adjusts her hands.

I started using this tip the day I got [i]"Intimate Power"[/i] and have found -- by and large -- that the audience empathizes with the spectator at that moment, so they are all drawn away from "the work" being done.

And while I'm on the subject, it's also good to remember that we, as the performing magician, have [i]"the power"[/i] when we are [i]"on"[/i] -- we are in control, we are the authority (or we [i]should[/i] be unless our act is playing the part of a goofy dunce.) If we state something with conviction and congruency, [i]it is so[/i]. To the degree we relinquish or diminish that control in the eyes of the audience, we are less magicians and just another Joe doing a handful of tricks.

Just another opinion.

John LeBlanc
Houston, TX
Message: Posted by: chiz (Feb 22, 2004 12:47PM)
Just wondering what some of your thoughts are on using an Invisible Deck as a kicker to the Corinda effect on the DVD. I was just thinking about it before; I might go and try it out later on.
______
Ben
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 22, 2004 03:25PM)
Thanks, Richard, I'll keep that in mind.

I did try it again last night at a family function on my sister-in-law, and she dropped the cards. Luckily, she picked them up in the right order, so the trick worked.

ARGHH!

I might try the card in pocket. It's a little less stress inducing!

Great stack, BTW!
Message: Posted by: Leo B. Domapias (Feb 22, 2004 10:32PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-12 19:24, salsa_dancer wrote:

...I got the DVD on Tuesday morning, and within 15 minutes I had learnt the system. This system has got to be worth the price of the whole DVD set!
[/quote]

The BCS in 15 minutes? I feel so inadequate I may need help.

I spent the whole afternoon yesterday learning the system, and all I managed to accomplish was something like this: “The card in your right pocket is uhmm...aahh...hmmm...the Queen of...(15 seconds of silence while mentally groping for the suit)...aahh..uhhmm...hmmm...(eyes fixed to the ceiling)...Hearts.”

The spectator takes the card out of his pocket. It’s not the Queen of Hearts!

Never mind the card in the left pocket... (Sigh.)

I think I need two or three more afternoons to get the system down pat. It’s such a gem of a system that I don’t want to rush learning it and then present it like a swimmer gulping for air in an ocean of “uhhmms…” and “aahhhs…” My ultimate goal is to perform it nearly as smoothly as Richard does it---if that’s an attainable goal, at all.

Ben Benjay
Manila, Philippines
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 23, 2004 05:36AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 23:32, Leo B. Domapias wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-12 19:24, salsa_dancer wrote:

...I got the DVD on Tuesday morning, and within 15 minutes I had learnt the system. This system has got to be worth the price of the whole DVD set!
[/quote]

The BCS in 15 minutes? I feel so inadequate I may need help.

I spent the whole afternoon yesterday learning the system, and all I managed to accomplish was something like this: “The card in your right pocket is uhmm...aahh...hmmm...the Queen of...(15 seconds of silence while mentally groping for the suit)...aahh..uhhmm...hmmm...(eyes fixed to the ceiling)...Hearts.”

The spectator takes the card out of his pocket. It’s not the Queen of Hearts!

Never mind the card in the left pocket... (Sigh.)

I think I need two or three more afternoons to get the system down pat. It’s such a gem of a system that I don’t want to rush learning it and then present it like a swimmer gulping for air in an ocean of “uhhmms…” and “aahhhs…” My ultimate goal is to perform it nearly as smoothly as Richard does it---if that’s an attainable goal, at all.

Ben Benjay
Manila, Philippines
[/quote]

Ben,

I don't mean to be critical here, but you said you studied the trick for ONE afternoon and all you could manage was ..... Does that mean you attempted to PERFORM it on the same day? I wouldn't do that with even the simplest self-working effect! You have to not only learn (technically) how to DO an effect, but think about it for days to feel comfortable with it and develop a presentation. Then, after doing it for awhile and working out the bugs, will it become a good piece.

Some of the other comments I have read about people using the system for the first time, lead me to suspect that they, also, are not following this basic rule of magic.

_______

[quote]
On 2004-02-22 13:47, chiz wrote:
Just wondering what some of your thoughts are on using an Invisible Deck as a kicker to the Corinda effect on the DVD. I was just thinking about it before; I might go and try it out later on.
______
Ben
[/quote]

Ben,

I don't think that is a good idea. I understand your thinking, but it is always better, if you are going to use a gimmicked deck, to use it FIRST and then switch it out. I know you may be thinking that the effect of the ID is stronger and should follow the other, but by then you have already switched out the deck and will be left holding a very Unexaminable prop! I personally start off with the Radar Deck and then switch in the BCS deck.

Just my thoughts,

Richard
Message: Posted by: Sven Rygh (Feb 23, 2004 05:59AM)
I wholeheartedly second Richard on this.

When I first got the BCS, I learned the system in a couple of days. When this is said, I also must mention that I didn't show it to a living soul for weeks (actually a full month).

Maybe I am a little slow on this compared to others, but I need time to digest and think about what I learned. After that, I always use a lot of time to think about how I actually would perform the routine, and to whom.

Then I visualize the performance in my head, foreward and backward, starting to work on the patter. THEN I start to practice the whole routine---and end up with recording it on my video cam. Watching myself do the routine automatically leads to adjustments and need for improvement.

I also have a hand-held tape-recorder in my car, and practice the patter to and from my office until I get it right.

Only then, after all this, I try the routine out on my most skeptical audience (you guessed right,....my wife and family!) :)
After further adjustments, I feel I am ready enough to try it out for a real audience.

Well, this is at least how I do it. It works fine for me. Others might have other methods.
However, my opinion is that nobody should perform anything, referring to various dealers adds, "right out of the box" or "5 minutes after you received it". Never ever!

Sven

P.S. Richard, I have been extremely busy work-wise lately. I'll be PMing you about Making Real Magic in a couple of days. :)
Message: Posted by: rgranville (Feb 23, 2004 07:42AM)
[quote]I spent the whole afternoon yesterday learning the system, and all I managed to accomplish was something like this: “The card in your right pocket is uhmm...aahh...hmmm...the Queen of...(15 seconds of silence while mentally groping for the suit)...aahh..uhhmm...hmmm...(eyes fixed to the ceiling)...Hearts.” [/quote]

Obviously, this will get easier with practice, as Mr. Osterlind has noted. But if you read his treatise, [i]Making Magic Real,[/i] you'll see how to turn your mental groping to your advantage, not just using the BCS, but for [i]any[/i] mental effect.
:banana:
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 23, 2004 04:44PM)
I agree!

It takes an instant for me to get the card but I concentrate a little longer um and ahhing as if I am probing their thoughts before revealing the card.

I practiced the BCS for a good week before trying it on people. It's just those *** spectators who don't practice their card handling technique! :)

Unfortunately, whilst I agree that practice is important, the only way to practice audience management is to try it!

Handing a deck of cards to a spectator and turning your back is always a risky prospect!
Message: Posted by: Leo B. Domapias (Feb 23, 2004 06:01PM)
Hi Richard,

I don’t mind getting critical comments from you. I know anything coming from you---tips, encouragements, or critical reviews---will help speed up my learning the BCS.

In my post above, I was poking fun at my own inadequacy.

The author of the original post said he learned the system in 15 minutes. For the life of me, I couldn’t learn the BCS that fast. In 15 minutes, I was still jotting down the order of the cards as you are dictating it on the video. I spent maybe an additional 25 minutes culling the cards according to your stack (clumsily dropping some of them, messing up the arrangement somehow, and starting over again, etc.). So 40 minutes had elapsed, and I had not learned anything yet! I thought I must be out of everybody’s league, or my learning technique is ineffective, or my I.Q. is just not up to the task. Anyway, I find my bumbling attempt to learn the system funny, not frustrating, when compared to the rapid progress of other learners.

Nope, I did not perform any trick using the BCS that same afternoon. I tried the Two Cards in Pocket with my teenage son, who is my regular assistant in my magic shows (he’s the “spectator” I referred to in my previous post), just to test myself how well I understood the system and how far I had progressed. Not far, I found out to my dismay.

Thank you for the tips you so generously shared. I hope more are coming, particularly in the aspect of learning (not performing, as I’m not yet there) the system.

Ben Benjay
Manila, Philippines
Message: Posted by: Uriah Fuller (Feb 23, 2004 06:19PM)
I would suggest buying the e-book version of the BCS from Richard. It's only $15, instantly downloadable and gives you intricate information on the system, the set-up, shortcuts, mnemonics, etc., that can make learning and using the system easier than from the DVD's. It also details several different peeks that Richard uses with the system (only a couple of which were revealed in the DVDs). Plus it includes the complete routines and performance tips that you can use (including a bonus "magician's only" routine not revealed on the videos). I have it in my mentalism library and find it a great adjunct to the video explanations.

You can find the e-book version of the BCS at: http://www.osterlindmysteries.com/store1.htm

Uriah
Message: Posted by: Kim (Feb 24, 2004 06:56AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 07:05, osterlind wrote:
I like the 9 to 5 Dolly Parton thing!


It also lets you figure out who the trouble-makers are and lets you avoid them! (Beware of that old saying about making such a person your assistant and winning him over. Sometimes it can work, but if it doesn't you are in trouble!)

Richard
[/quote]

At this time I would like to point out that one of the audience members made the L&L videos almost impossible to watch. They should be re-edited with that individual being taken out completely. If it had been anyone doing these videos other than Richard Osterlind, I would have sent them back for a refund.
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 24, 2004 07:22AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-23 19:01, Leo B. Domapias wrote:
Hi Richard,

I don’t mind getting critical comments from you. I know anything coming from you---tips, encouragements, or critical reviews---will help speed up my learning the BCS.

In my post above, I was poking fun at my own inadequacy.

The author of the original post said he learned the system in 15 minutes. For the life of me, I couldn’t learn the BCS that fast. In 15 minutes, I was still jotting down the order of the cards as you are dictating it on the video. I spent maybe an additional 25 minutes culling the cards according to your stack (clumsily dropping some of them, messing up the arrangement somehow, and starting over again, etc.). So 40 minutes had elapsed, and I had not learned anything yet! I thought I must be out of everybody’s league, or my learning technique is ineffective, or my I.Q. is just not up to the task. Anyway, I find my bumbling attempt to learn the system funny, not frustrating, when compared to the rapid progress of other learners.

Nope, I did not perform any trick using the BCS that same afternoon. I tried the Two Cards in Pocket with my teenage son, who is my regular assistant in my magic shows (he’s the “spectator” I referred to in my previous post), just to test myself how well I understood the system and how far I had progressed. Not far, I found out to my dismay.

Thank you for the tips you so generously shared. I hope more are coming, particularly in the aspect of learning (not performing, as I’m not yet there) the system.

Ben Benjay
Manila, Philippines

[/quote]

Dear Ben,

I'm very sorry if I seemed to be criticizing you. I sure didn't mean it to come across that way. I do know there are some who do just that. They buy an effect in the afternoon (or read about it) then put it into their show that night! Then, when it doesn't play, they blame the effect!

Also, please be aware that I am never sure of just who I am talking to and what experience you have. I'm glad that you didn't do what I wrongly accused you of! Sorry!

Let me give you a quick tip for practicing the system. Mix up the deck. Then spread it out on your couch or bed in three rows so that you can see all the cards. Start picking them up in the BCS order. Do this a couple of times a day (or more if you are ambitious!)and you will soon have it down.

I don't know if the book has that much more in it than the video, but some people LEARN better from books. I, myself, am a poor learner and I usually go for the book first then use the video to see how the performer does something and how I imagined it. But either the book or the video should give you enough information to master thoroughly the system.

I hope this little hint helps.
________


[quote]
On 2004-02-24 07:56, Kim wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 07:05, osterlind wrote:
I like the 9 to 5 Dolly Parton thing!

It also lets you figure out who the trouble makers are and lets you avoid them! (Beware of that old saying about making such a person your assistant and winning him over. Sometimes it can work, but if it doesn't you are in trouble!)

Richard
[/quote]

At this time I would like to point out that one of the audience members made the L&L videos almost impossible to watch.They should be re-edited with that individual being taken out completely. If it had been anyone doing these videos other than Richard Osterlind I would have sent them back for a refund.

[/quote]

Dear Kim,

I suppose you are referring to John. He is a very likable person, and that's just the way he is.

The performers of the L&L videos really have no control over who the audience members will be. I understand your feelings about some of his actions, but on the other hand, that's what audiences are like in the real world. I often have someone in the audience who has to say or do something (either intentional or not) that puts a strain on the performer. How you deal with them can be a lesson in itself.

The important thing, however, is whether or not the videos TEACH. I felt very good that Jim Sisti and I covered so much in the explanation segments. That is where I felt we did our finest work.

Sincerely,

Richard
Message: Posted by: Suffolk (Feb 24, 2004 07:59AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-24 08:30, osterlind wrote:
I suppose you are referring to John. He is a very likable person and that's just the way he is.
[/quote]
Richard,

If "John" is the loud guy with the mustache who sat in the front row, then I think he was a god-send for a teaching video.

On Volume One, the way you handled him and got extra "moments" from him, was one of the most valuable things I learned from the video.

Thanks again,

Doug
Message: Posted by: Kim (Feb 24, 2004 08:49AM)
It probably is who you said. Is the real world like that? Most definitely. I was just saying it made the videos hard to watch at times.

Did you handle him well? Masterfully. As I have said here and in other posts, I believe I got more value out of this DVD set than anything I can remember in recent history :-)

The only thing I am having problems with (so far ) is the CT. I have a few ideas on how that could be taught a little better. Looks like I'm going to have to fork over the money for the book. I don't mind that. I just mind the waiting to get it. Making Magic Real and Making Real Magic and the BCS are all excellent purchases.
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 24, 2004 12:15PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-23 06:36, osterlind wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 23:32, Leo B. Domapias wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-12 19:24, salsa_dancer wrote:

...I got the DVD on Tuesday morning, and within 15 minutes I had learnt the system. This system has got to be worth the price of the whole DVD set!
[/quote]

The BCS in 15 minutes? I feel so inadequate I may need help.

I spent the whole afternoon yesterday learning the system, and all I managed to accomplish was something like this: “The card in your right pocket is uhmm...aahh...hmmm...the Queen of...(15 seconds of silence while mentally groping for the suit)...aahh..uhhmm...hmmm...(eyes fixed to the ceiling)...Hearts.”

The spectator takes the card out of his pocket. It’s not the Queen of Hearts!

Never mind the card in the left pocket... (Sigh.)

I think I need two or three more afternoons to get the system down pat. It’s such a gem of a system that I don’t want to rush learning it and then present it like a swimmer gulping for air in an ocean of “uhhmms…” and “aahhhs…” My ultimate goal is to perform it nearly as smoothly as Richard does it---if that’s an attainable goal, at all.

Ben Benjay
Manila, Philippines
[/quote]

Ben,

I don't mean to be critical here, but you said you studied the trick for ONE afternoon and all you could manage was ..... Does that mean you attempted to PERFORM it on the same day? I wouldn't do that with even the simplest self-working effect! You have to not only learn (technically) how to DO an effect, but think about it for days to feel comfortable with it and develop a presentation. Then, after doing it for awhile and working out the bugs, will it become a good piece.

Some of the other comments I have read about people using the system for the first time, lead me to suspect that they, also, are not following this basic rule of magic.


[/quote]

I did in fact learn the BCS in 15 minutes, but that is only because mental arithmetic comes as easy to me as the alphabet to most people. I used it the very same day in an effect that I have been doing for a while that I used to use sleight-of-hand, so this took ALL the work out and enabled me to present this in a smooth unexplainable manner! Thank you, Richard!

I would never dream of doing an effect straight out of the packet normally...
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 24, 2004 01:53PM)
Well, you "danced" your way out of that one!
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 24, 2004 05:37PM)
I always have been light on my feet! ;)
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 24, 2004 07:15PM)
I've seen John, as well as other audience members, on other L&L videos. Where are the video's filmed and who are the audience members?
Message: Posted by: Kim (Feb 24, 2004 10:04PM)
My understanding is that L&L has employees and family and friends as the audience.
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 24, 2004 10:25PM)
Does this mean that the enthusiastic responses are perhaps enhanced a little?

BTW, I found laying a shuffled deck out and seeing how long it took to get in order great for getting faster but not much use when I was still learning the system. I kept getting one card wrong and messing up the whole stack and getting really angry! I found the best way to practice was to get the system in order then simply see how long it takes to go through the whole deck, predicting the next card!

Another BTW: Without giving away too much, isn't it great that for the cards that are tricky to work out the value of, its easy to figure out the suit of?
Message: Posted by: Craig Chamberlain (Feb 24, 2004 11:44PM)
Richard,

The audience on your excellent DVD set is very enthusiastic, maybe even more so than on some other L&L videos.

The audience members were responding to strong material and a pleasant personality, but I was wondering if you also did some kind of warm-up before the segments we see. How were you introduced to the audience?
Message: Posted by: Decomposed (Feb 25, 2004 03:33AM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-24 20:15, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:
I've seen John on other L&L videos...as well as other audience members. Where are the video's filmed and who are the audience members?
[/quote]

From what I understand, the videos are made in beautiful Lake Tahoe, CA. They are shot in a person's home with beautiful views from the house to boot. The audiences are from the local community and some of the women are models.
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 25, 2004 07:39AM)
Let me answer a few questions about the L&L videos.

They are filmed in Lake Tahoe in a beautiful house with a huge room as the studio. Louis does his best to make the performer feel at home so as to do their best performances. Dining is great and a whole day is spent planning out the show and working with the camera crew.

The audience consists of some of Louis' employees (just a few like maybe four or five) and local residents. (Maybe some are relatives, but no one was introduced to me in that way.)

Yes, Louis does try to get enthusiastic people (why wouldn't he!), but they are not warmed up ahead of time or coached. They are typical of any audience who is attending either a live TV show or a performance that is being taped.

Did any of you see my TV performance on Fox and Friends a few years ago? It was picked up by Talk Soup for their weekend edition and shown about 20 times. The people on that show (including Stephanie Powers) were every bit as enthusiastic as those at the L&L shoot.

I remember years ago when I had a cable television show. I decided to tape the second performance live at a local club I was working at. The first show was typical of a nightclub environment with the normal amount of talking and noise. As soon as we brought in the cameras and lighting to tape the second show, the whole mood of the room changed! Everyone became quiet and respectful! This is how any audience behaves with cameras rolling.

Finally, I don't really think that the audience was totally cooperative! There were times when people talked and made comments. "I don't think the bill is still in the envelope!" Or what about when I got the number for one girl wrong and she immediately said, "NO! That's wrong!" with delight! Then I "fixed" that and turned it around. That happened throughout the day. On the close-up segments, after I did a number of what I thought was good stuff, one of the girls suddenly said, "Now, THAT'S good!" as though the rest wasn't!

So, there you go. I thought the audience represented pretty much what I find to be the case in most of the shows that I do. Again, yes, they are being recorded and are aware of it. But, how else?

I hope that clarifies some of the comments.

Richard
Message: Posted by: Kim (Feb 25, 2004 07:45AM)
Richard,

Maybe we got a little off topic here. Let me reiterate that the DVDs are wonderful. That's the bottom line here.
:-)
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Feb 25, 2004 09:16AM)
All I can say is that I had the same reaction as John when I was watching the DVD!

You should have heard me shouting at the TV! He-he.
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Feb 25, 2004 07:07PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-25 08:45, Kim wrote:
Richard,

Maybe we got a little off topic here. Let me reiterate that the DVDs are wonderful. That's the bottom line here.
:-)
[/quote]

You're right and I'm sorry about that.

Thank you so much for the comments about the videos!

Richard
Message: Posted by: Bill Hallahan (Feb 25, 2004 07:34PM)
[quote]BTW, I found laying a shuffled deck out and seeing how long it took to get in order great for getting faster but not much use when I was still learning the system. I kept getting one card wrong and messing up the whole stack and getting really angry! I found the best way to practice was to get the system in order then simply see how long it takes to go through the whole deck, predicting the next card![/quote]
Even if you get more than one card wrong, you won't get the entire sequence wrong, you just shift the end of the sequence so that when you get to a certain point, you will calculate a successor and it will be a card that’s already in the stack, i.e. already used. This gives you the insertion point in the deck where one or more cards should go. Split the deck into two packets, at the point between the successor card you calculated and the card before that. Each of these packets will be correct sequences (or if not, you’ll end up splitting one or more of the packets later.) Build up correct several correct sequences of cards and you will eventually be able to put the stack together from these packets.

I also did what you do, I just put the stack together from a list, and I practiced calculating successor cards. But it’s worth knowing the technique above if you are ever caught without a list and you happen to make a mistake.
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Feb 25, 2004 11:48PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-25 08:39, osterlind wrote:
Let me answer a few questions about the L&L videos.

They are filmed in Lake Tahoe in a beautiful house with a huge room as the studio. Louis does his best to make the performer feel at home so as to do their best performances. Dining is great and a whole day is spent planning out the show and working with the camera crew.

The audience consists of some of Louis' employees (just a few like maybe four or five) and local residents. (Maybe some are relatives, but no one was introduced to me in that way.)

Yes, Louis does try to get enthusiastic people (why wouldn't he!), but they are not warmed up ahead of time or coached. They are typical of any audience who is attending either a live TV show or a performance that is being taped.

Did any of you see my TV performance on Fox and Friends a few years ago? It was picked up by Talk Soup for their weekend edition and shown about 20 times. The people on that show (including Stephanie Powers) were every bit as enthusiastic as those at the L&L shoot.

I remember years ago when I had a cable television show. I decided to tape the second performance live at a local club I was working at. The first show was typical of a nightclub environment with the normal amount of talking and noise. As soon as we brought in the cameras and lighting to tape the second show, the whole mood of the room changed! Everyone became quiet and respectful! This is how any audience behaves with cameras rolling.

Finally, I don't really think that the audience was totally cooperative! There were times when people talked and made comments. "I don't think the bill is still in the envelope!" Or what about when I got the number for one girl wrong and she immediately said, "NO! That's wrong!" with delight! Then I "fixed" that and turned it around. That happened throughout the day. On the close-up segments, after I did a number of what I thought was good stuff, one of the girls suddenly said, "Now, THAT'S good!" as though the rest wasn't!

So, there you go. I thought the audience represented pretty much what I find to be the case in most of the shows that I do. Again, yes, they are being recorded and are aware of it. But, how else?

I hope that clarifies some of the comments.

Richard
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest they were stooges, actors or people paid to give big reactions (although the money you offer if we bust you using stooges would be nice... :) ).

If I were filming a video or DVD series I would EXACTLY do what L&L have done, and I can only hope that the results would be as good!
Message: Posted by: santlerconjurer (Feb 29, 2004 07:36AM)
Paid for/dowloaded the e-book on Thursday, can now re-assemble entire deck accurately on my own.

Didn't learn in 15 minutes, but did learn. Was also pleased to learn this is the first magical effect I can practice while boringly swimming my laps at the local health club.

Here's my question: do experienced BCS performers find it necessary to pick the deck up every week to "keep in tune," or does this knowledge stay with you no matter what, like muscle memory?

I've found my mnemonics doesn't go away even with months between performances. What have people found with BCS? (Or perhaps does everybody get so many more performing engagements than I do that nobody can answer?)
Message: Posted by: Xia (Feb 29, 2004 07:38AM)
I find it stays put. But I still go over the system a few times before I perform it (just to make sure). As it is nearly always in my pocket, I'm pretty good with the system at most times.
Message: Posted by: rgranville (Feb 29, 2004 08:21AM)
[quote]Here's my question: do experienced BCS performers find it necessary to pick the deck up every week to "keep in tune," or does this knowledge stay with you no matter what, like muscle memory?[/quote]

It stays with me, but I innately have a strong memory for numbers and formulas. That's probably why I was a math major...
:pepper:
Message: Posted by: Skitch (Feb 29, 2004 11:19AM)
I was wondering what would be the difference from a Marked Deck to a stacked deck? Now I know the simple difference, but I guess what I am asking for is effects and how the specttor plays a part. I don't have either a marked deck or a stacking system, but I would like to know the difference. Also, is it good to have both? Or if you have one, is the other not needed?

Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Suffolk (Mar 2, 2004 09:59AM)
Skitch, a stacked deck is no use to you if you can't do a false shuffle.

Regards,

Doug
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Mar 2, 2004 03:58PM)
I'm afraid, Skitch, that you will only get more confusing (but accurate) answers like Doug's to your question since this is the open forum!
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Mar 3, 2004 07:03AM)
Hello,

On Richard's site it says, "Imagine being able to name a card a spectator has chosen without looking at the cards. You just look in their eyes and name it as if you were reading their minds."

That is exactly what I am looking for, for a routine I am putting together. Exciting.

I don't know the BCS (yet) but do need to know this first: Can you do this without looking at ANY of the cards at all?! I presume some sort of glimpse is necessary, but I don't know for sure. If so, this would need to be the most undetectable glimpse in the universe for what I want to do!

Also - I agree with an earlier post that a stack is perhaps strengthened by good false shuffling. Does the system cover that aspect too?

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: enriqueenriquez (Mar 3, 2004 07:14AM)
Steve,

Regarding the glimpse, your intuitions are correct.

Osterlind’s manuscript is excellent. You will find suggestions and solutions for all your questions there. The BCS is a great tool that you will be able to apply on many ways.
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Mar 3, 2004 07:27AM)
Enrique,

Do you mean it's "the most undetectable glimpse in the universe"?
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Mar 3, 2004 07:28AM)
Steve,

Don't forget, there are many ways to glimpse a card without it even looking like you have even looked at the deck.... Don't be put off by the glimpse, I have used this system VERY effectively and people believe you can read their mind.... even the skeptics I know are having a hard time coming up with any plausible explanations...
Message: Posted by: enriqueenriquez (Mar 3, 2004 07:46AM)
Steve,

Osterlind shows a couple of very indetectable glimpses but, in my opinion, the glimpse will be as indetectable as you can make it.

Remember something: people only can perceive what they already know.

But the manuscript and the method is about a lot more than a glimpse.
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Mar 3, 2004 08:34AM)
Steve,

Get onto the website and buy it... enough talk!! lol

You will not be disappointed, this is exactly what you are looking for...!
Message: Posted by: Steve Martin (Mar 3, 2004 09:27AM)
I have just bought the manuscript. Very good.

Ideas are formulating in my head... there is no substitute for reading... :)

Thank you, Mr. Osterlind.
Message: Posted by: Spinman (Mar 3, 2004 10:27PM)
Osterlind is a genius whose time for recognition is long overdue. I've been using this system since day one, over twenty years now. To say the least, it's incredible. Thanks to L&L for producing the DVD's and thanks to Richard for sharing.
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Mar 4, 2004 02:23AM)
I've fooled people into thinking I am reading their body language!
Message: Posted by: Axman (Mar 4, 2004 03:18PM)
I think Richard Osterlind is an all time great in our field. Up there with Malini, Vernon, Leipzig, Kaps and other great minds and performers.
His works are among the most special magical things I own.
Message: Posted by: NJJ (Mar 4, 2004 04:34PM)
I forgot to mention peviously when we were discussing using an ID with the Corinda effect. Instead of using an ID AFTER the card is revealed, you can do the routine as a do-as-I-do routine. You BOTH place the cards behind your back and turn one card upside down in the middle, you using an ID and the spect using the OBCS!

You can spread through your cards BEFORE the spectator, showing one card facedown! Its not mentalism but it is very strong as it creates the impression that the spectator has choosen the same card as you and not the other way around!
Message: Posted by: landmark (Mar 4, 2004 07:38PM)
Ooh, nice. That should fool a few magicians.

Jack Shalom
Message: Posted by: Joshua Lozoff (Mar 10, 2004 04:02PM)
If you use an ID with the Breakthrough Card System (or any stack or marked deck) you should absolutely reveal your card from the ID before the spectator reveals theirs. That's the whole point.

And no, it won't fool any magicians, but it's still very, very powerful.
Message: Posted by: czero (Mar 17, 2004 10:31PM)
[quote]
On 2004-02-24 07:56, Kim wrote:
[quote]
On 2004-02-22 07:05, osterlind wrote:
I like the 9 to 5 Dolly Parton thing!


It also lets you figure out who the trouble-makers are and lets you avoid them! (Beware of that old saying about making such a person your assistant and winning him over. Sometimes it can work, but if it doesn't you are in trouble!)

Richard
[/quote]

At this time I would like to point out that one of the audience members made the L&L videos almost impossible to watch. They should be re-edited with that individual being taken out completely. If it had been anyone doing these videos other than Richard Osterlind, I would have sent them back for a refund.

[/quote]


Am I the only one who actually really LIKED John? :-) If I were performing, I'd kill for an audience member with half his enthusiasm. It's infectious; the crowd gets even more fired up.

Granted, if I were half as skilled as Richard Osterlind, I wouldn't need any help priming the audience. But I have to admit, getting such responses is just plain gratifying. People like John, Janelle (not sure how that's spelled), and Kevin ("Someone's got to hit me!"), with their wide-eyed looks and exclamations of astonishment...they're what make this type of performing so worthwhile.

My hat's off to Richard. His Mental Mysteries DVD set is the most valuable purchase I've made in years. These discs worth MANY times over their modest cost. I just hope everyone buying this material treats it with the respect it deserves.

--Mike
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Mar 18, 2004 05:38AM)
[quote]
On 2004-03-04 16:18, Axman wrote:
I think Richard Osterlind is an all time great in our field. Up there with Malini, Vernon, Leipzig, Kaps and other great minds and performers.
His works are among the most special magical things I own.

[/quote]


Thank God I have a wife and kids to keep my head where it belongs! :)

Richard

I seemed to have shut down this thread with my comment! I was, however, thinking about what Axman wrote. I, of course, know that if I live another 40 or 50 years I might just begin to approach the genius of those you named. But what is more interesting to me is that all you named are "magicians!" I get very irritated at some mentalists who put down magicians and don't consider what they do to be "equal" to the "miracles" accomplished by mindreaders. Look at the men Axman named: Malini, Kaps, Leipzig, Vernon. When these men performed, the audience saw MAGIC! REAL MAGIC! People still talk today about the impact these magicians had on their audiences. I have no doubt that when Malini left a town, the impression he created was as great as any mentalist ever had. I have no doubt that people talked as highly about him as others did about Dunninger, Reese and all the other legendary mind workers. It is all part of the SAME ART and any branch of magic, well-performed, can achieve the same high degree of impact!

Richard
Message: Posted by: czero (Mar 21, 2004 04:19PM)
Richard,

In the performances on your Mind Mysteries DVDs, I for one really enjoy it when you punctuate the mentalism with the occasional straight magic effect. And judging by the crowd's reactions, so do most people. :-) To those elitists who say the two should never be mixed, I would say check out Mr. Osterlind and get back to me. (Your take on the coin-in-bottle will have me finally tossing away gaffed quarters for good. :-D )

And you're far too modest. I'm sure that most here would agree with me. You definitely belong in the company of the greats.

I've learned TONS from you--and I don't just mean all the fantastic effects on Mental Mysteries. In addition to technical explanations, you offer a wealth of knowledge on those little (but crucial) psychological subtleties that elevate a simple trick into a miracle. You demonstrate the importance of building a rapport with your audience. You show how well naturalness and humor can augment a performance.

When I first viewed your DVDs, I just watched the performances. Then I watched them again. And again. It was three or four days of repeated viewings before I finally relented and started to check out the explanations. I enjoyed your show too much to ruin it by learning how you did it. :-)

I'd like to someday be as good as you are technically...but I'd like even more to be able to bond with the audience the way you do. There were so many "moments" where you really seemed to connect with the crowd or one of its members.

--Mike
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Mar 21, 2004 05:52PM)
I have to agree, I was being drawn down the route that magic and mentalism should NEVER be mixed yet we see a master at work utilising this very principle.

This is a guy that obviously has great rapport with people, a skill that is very hard to come by and even harder to maintain a modest attitude with.

Wives and kids are there to keep you firmly on the ground Richard, but I think you should allow yourself to soar a little as you have a little of the 'magic' that made these names great and yours too.

You also show a patience and understanding to those who may be starting out and this is the sign of a great teacher also.

I still wonder how I managed without the BCS and the radar deck before I saw your DVD's..... keep it coming!!
Message: Posted by: Richard Osterlind (Mar 22, 2004 09:07AM)
[quote]
On 2004-03-21 17:19, czero wrote:

Richard,

In the performances on your Mind Mysteries DVDs, I for one really enjoy it when you punctuate the mentalism with the occasional straight magic effect. And judging by the crowd's reactions, so do most people. :) To those elitists who say the two should never be mixed, I would say check out Mr. Osterlind and get back to me. (Your take on the coin-in-bottle will have me finally tossing away gaffed quarters for good. :-D )

And you're far too modest. I'm sure that most here would agree with me. You definitely belong in the company of the greats.

I've learned TONS from you--and I don't just mean all the fantastic effects on Mental Mysteries. In addition to technical explanations, you offer a wealth of knowledge on those little (but crucial) psychological subtleties that elevate a simple trick into a miracle. You demonstrate the importance of building a rapport with your audience. You show how well naturalness and humor can augment a performance.

When I first viewed your DVDs, I just watched the performances. Then I watched them again. And again. It was three or four days of repeated viewings before I finally relented and started to check out the explanations. I enjoyed your show too much to ruin it by learning how you did it. :)

I'd like to someday be as good as you are technically...but I'd like even more to be able to bond with the audience the way you do. There were so many "moments" where you really seemed to connect with the crowd or one of its members.

--Mike



[/quote]

Mike,

Your posting hit home with me. I am constantly trying to improve my work and always thinking about new ideas. My "Making Real" series represents a continuing search for what is important in our art. The third installment will be called "Essays" and will be a series of such on different aspects of magic. Your posting gave me one such topic!

To anyone reading this, think about Mike's comment that he received the videos and watched them for days BEFORE reading how they were done! It is often said in magic that if it is performed correctly audiences won't care HOW it was done and will just enjoy the performance. Mike's comment that "he didn't want to know" goes one step further. And it falls right in line with comments I have heard from laymen after my show. Someone will say, "I wonder how you did all that," and someone else will say, "I don't WANT TO KNOW!" The honest meaning of this is: OF COURSE THERE IS A WAY BUT I AM ENJOYING IT TOO MUCH TO WANT TO KNOW THE METHOD!

Do you see where this goes. All the worry about laymen finding out methods on the Internet become meaningless. I am certainly not proposing that we do not concern ourselves with keeping our secrets, but if we take routines, add our own dimension to them, and perform them in the right way, you secrets will be safe!

Just thoughts.

Richard

[quote]
On 2004-03-21 18:52, salsa_dancer wrote:
I have to agree, I was being drawn down the route that magic and mentalism should NEVER be mixed yet we see a master at work utilising this very principle.

This is a guy that obviously has great rapport with people, a skill that is very hard to come by and even harder to maintain a modest attitude with.

Wives and kids are there to keep you firmly on the ground Richard, but I think you should allow yourself to soar a little as you have a little of the 'magic' that made these names great and yours too.

You also show a patience and understanding to those who may be starting out and this is the sign of a great teacher also.

I still wonder how I managed without the BCS and the radar deck before I saw your DVD's..... keep it coming!!
[/quote]

Salsa dancer,

Thank you for the kind remarks. You say I have a great repport with people that is hard to come by. Let me now give you the secret!

I LIKE PEOPLE. The great truth that comes from both my religious feelings and my study of life is simply this: If you want people to like you, you have to like them first. Not a patronizing attitude that the audience can readily see through, but a firm conviction that we are all God's creatures and all have something special and unique to offer. Strive for that first and all the rest comes automatically.

Richard
Message: Posted by: salsa_dancer (Mar 22, 2004 10:24AM)
Richard,

That is probably one of the best pieces of advice that has been given. I strive to treat my fellow man with patience and understanding, and although sometimes it fails me at rush hour ;) the intention is always there.

I teach people to dance and the 'difficult' pupils always ask me how I can be so patient with them week in and week out and my answer is always because I want to, and enjoy seeing them succeed.

In magic the desire has always been for me to achieve a feeling in the spectator that I have performed something real and not just a parlour trick. This is something that is apparent that you do achieve..

It is easy to like people, but not everyone will allow themselves to, so when I say that it is a hard skill to acquire I mean that, because the hardest thing to do sometimes is to like people.