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Topic: A magician must be a gentleman so...
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 04:22AM)
Interesting web magazine:
http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/
Explore it, a lot of good articles
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 29, 2015 04:32AM)
I'm sure all of the female magicians here are thrilled with the title of this thread. :eek:
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 04:42AM)
..mmmmh....English is not my language, so maybe I got something wrong...i mean a gentleman in sense of a polite and classy man...not a "man"...
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 04:43AM)
In Italy "gentleman" means an "old styled man"
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 29, 2015 05:05AM)
Oh. That's better. :eek:

Good articles, though. Thanks for the link.
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 05:26AM)
Sometimes my english is not really clear but...no, nothing sexist here!!! Sexism is something so far from me that I can not even imagine how a person can think that way
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 29, 2015 07:59AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, Gregor Von G. wrote:
Sometimes my english is not really clear but...no, nothing sexist here!!! Sexism is something so far from me that I can not even imagine how a person can think that way [/quote]

Is there an Italian expression for a well-mannered person? Or do you have different expressions for men and women?

In everyday English, we would say gentleman for a man and lady for a woman, implying that they are well-mannered. The construction "well-mannered person" is awkward and sounds modern and forced. But, in my opinion, it's the way forward.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 29, 2015 08:44AM)
There is nothing wrong with Gentleman nor Lady.
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 09:11AM)
In italian we say "Gentiluomo" for a very well mannered person - Male and "Gentildonna" for a very well mannered person Female but, although some people continue to use the term, including me, it is considered obsolete. Another form is "Signore" for a Well mannered usually wealthy and aged man and "Signora" for female. A curiosity - "Signore" is used for define "Lord" in sense of "God"..in the bible the Lord is called "Signore".
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 09:12AM)
In current language Uomo means Men and Donna means Female, in a neutral way.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 29, 2015 09:22AM)
"Uomo" -- fascinating word. Do you know its history?
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 09:43AM)
Is from the latin word "Homo" which is a word related to "Humus" which means "earth", the sense is "men of the earth"
In Italy we also use the ancient greek word "Andros", similar means to Latin "Homo" in words such as "Androgino" "Antropomorfo" etc...(Andro... or Antro...it depends on the complete word)
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 29, 2015 09:53AM)
Interesting. But since "homo" is a masculine word, where does the U come from, and how does it make the word gender neutral?
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 10:11AM)
Neutral in the sense that it does not refer to "good" man, "bad" man or "well mannered". Only defines the gender
The word uomo, as for all modern Italian words, comes from the Italian vulgar language "Italiano Volgare", which not means "Rude" but "dal Volgo" - "from People" With the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, Latin remained the language of high culture and the people spoke a dialect that mixed Latin and languages of the conquerors, the Volgare. Every region have his own dialect, the first book ever printed in Itlian language - volgare - is the Divine Comedy ...
Message: Posted by: Gregor Von G. (May 29, 2015 10:14AM)
So, there is no means in letter U at the start of uomo, just the literal transcription of a spoken word
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 29, 2015 10:22AM)
Oh I see. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 29, 2015 11:41AM)
Interesting discussion, Gregor and Magnus. There is a fascinating book you guys might like: "The Professor and the Madman" by Simon Winchester. The sub-title is "A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of The Oxford English Dictionary." You can get a used copy from Thriftbooks.com for $3.59. Or Abebooks.co.uk has one for about $3.24.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 29, 2015 01:32PM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, arthur stead wrote:
Interesting discussion, Gregor and Magnus. There is a fascinating book you guys might like: "The Professor and the Madman" by Simon Winchester. The sub-title is "A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of The Oxford English Dictionary." You can get a used copy from Thriftbooks.com for $3.59. Or Abebooks.co.uk has one for about $3.24. [/quote]

Interesting. I've read Winchester's "The Meaning of Everything: The Story of the Oxford English Dictionary" and very much enjoyed it. I wasn't aware that he wrote a second book on the topic. I'll have to check that out.

Thanks Arthur.
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (May 29, 2015 07:49PM)
[quote]On May 29, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'm sure all of the female magicians here are thrilled with the title of this thread. :eek: [/quote]

I was just thinking that...
;)
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (May 30, 2015 02:43AM)
German doesn't have a word for gentleman.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 30, 2015 08:42AM)
Hmmm, you're right!

[i]...meine liebe Damen und Herren.[/i]

So...[i]liebe Herren[/i] would be the closest approximation?

Doug
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 30, 2015 10:05AM)
The first thought that cam to mind when I read the title of this thread was a logic puzzle:

A magician must be a gentleman so... all gentlemen must be magicians.
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (May 30, 2015 10:51AM)
[quote]On May 30, 2015, stoneunhinged wrote:
German doesn't have a word for gentleman. [/quote]

Is there a standard title for Molière's "Le bourgeois gentilhomme" in German? Or do they stick with the French title, as is often the case in English?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (May 30, 2015 01:51PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
The first thought that cam to mind when I read the title of this thread was a logic puzzle:

A magician must be a gentleman so... all gentlemen must be magicians. [/quote]

That's not a logic puzzle. It's just a common example of a logical fallacy.

All bird are vertebrates.

All mammals are vertebrates.

Therefore all mammals are birds.
Message: Posted by: Starrpower (May 30, 2015 02:54PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
[quote]On May 30, 2015, Starrpower wrote:
The first thought that cam to mind when I read the title of this thread was a logic puzzle:

A magician must be a gentleman so... all gentlemen must be magicians. [/quote]

That's not a logic puzzle. It's just a common example of a logical fallacy.

All bird are vertebrates.

All mammals are vertebrates.

Therefore all mammals are birds. [/quote]

Exactly. But you knew what I was getting at.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 30, 2015 03:00PM)
But...as men magicians, we must strive to be Gentlemen! In the highest order! There is no room for crass behavior or .douchebaggery. Our audience is our Crown Jewel!

Doug
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 30, 2015 03:08PM)
You're right, Doug ... but sadly, elegance and class are largely a thing of the past ...
Message: Posted by: Dougini (May 31, 2015 06:25AM)
So, isn't it up to US to change that? Or is it a lost cause?

Doug
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 31, 2015 10:00AM)
The beauty of acting is that one can act whatever fits the bill but a gentleman hardly fits bill of a magician in some respects.
“The Gentleman is always truthful and sincere; will not agree for the sake of complaisance or out of weakness ; will not pass over that of which he disapproves. He has a clear soul, and a fearless, straightforward tongue. On the other hand he is not blunt and rude. His truth is courteous; his courtesy, truthful; never a humbug, yet, where he truthfully can, he prefers to say pleasant things. [J.R. Vernon, "Contemporary Review," 1869]

An humbug on the other hand; “1751, student slang, "trick, jest, hoax, deception," also as a verb, of unknown origin. A vogue word of the early 1750s; its origin was a subject of much whimsical speculation even then.”.
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jun 1, 2015 04:53AM)
In German, the closest thing to "gentleman" is "cavalier". No one uses it, however. Just Spaniards and Italians trying to explain themselves.

In English, the word "gentleman" used to be a designation of class. The German "Herr" is approximate to that use. But English moved on, of course, so the class connotation has been lost.

As for the contemporary use of the word "gentleman" to mean something like a polite, dignified, respectful person of high moral standard--well, that use doesn't exist in German. And I'm not sure whether it means anything REAL in English anymore, either.

As y'all know, I tend to prefer the word "friendly". It's not gender-specific, and it has nothing to do with class or manners. It just means that one does one's best to get along with others in a polite, dignified, respectful manner with high moral standards. But, you know, I ain't gonna change the language. I'm tilting at windmills.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Jun 1, 2015 06:55AM)
It meant someone of independent means who does have to work for living in America. America, it was a place where anyone could work to become a gent. One didn't have much chance of doing so anywhere else in the world. Which is why America was called the land of the free with no titles and so on.
Message: Posted by: The Hermit (Jun 2, 2015 10:18PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2015, Dougini wrote:
But...as men magicians, we must strive to be Gentlemen! In the highest order! There is no room for crass behavior or .douchebaggery. Our audience is our Crown Jewel!

Doug [/quote]

I'm not sure gentlemen use the word 'douchebaggery'. :)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jun 3, 2015 08:54AM)
Well, I said we must [i]strive![/i] I have a LONG way to go! LOL! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: stoneunhinged (Jun 3, 2015 09:03AM)
[quote]On Jun 3, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Well, I said we must [i]strive![/i] I have a LONG way to go! LOL! :)

Doug [/quote]

LOL!