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Topic: CHANGE over @ Ellusionist
Message: Posted by: JayTChal (Jun 19, 2015 01:10PM)
Hey guys, not sure if anyone else has anymore info on this CHANGE thing?

I see Ellusionist pioneering a lot in the magic community lately .. don't know what's changed (excuse the pun :P)

http://www.ellusionist.com/change.html

There Thunderclap was supported within a few minutes from what I can see, and it looks like it's lining up to be something insane

I'd love to know more if you guys know?

- J
Message: Posted by: Nathan Horne (Jun 20, 2015 11:32AM)
It looks like a new colour change? They seem to only hade 1000 copies.
Message: Posted by: PendletonThe3rd (Jun 20, 2015 12:59PM)
According to one of their FB posts:

"It's 5 effects based on 1 brand new concept to magic that requires no sleight of hand and there are only 999 of them in our warehouse for sale.
A no-sleights, no cover concept that could change the way you perform at gigs, on instagram, on a showreel, to your Grandmother, at the bar.... everywhere."
Message: Posted by: mndude (Jun 20, 2015 05:15PM)
"It looks like a new colour change"

I hope he means color change as in the white smoke from Pure Smoke finally changing to some of the promised colors.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jun 20, 2015 09:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2015, mndude wrote:
"It looks like a new colour change"

I hope he means color change as in the white smoke from Pure Smoke finally changing to some of the promised colors. [/quote]

Let it go man... let it go.
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jun 23, 2015 10:57AM)
Lloyd Barnes has been teasing this for a few days on his Instagram ( https://instagram.com/lloydbarnes/ ). Can't really tell much from the videos though. Looks like just a really visual color change.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Li (Jun 23, 2015 06:24PM)
So I've just seen the trailer.....let me just pick up my jaw from the floor. Ladies and Gentlemen, the Hype is real this time!! Releasing tomorrow 3 pm EST! You will not want to miss out on getting this!!! Lloyd has a true gem here.
Message: Posted by: Sashac (Jun 23, 2015 06:51PM)
Had a sneak peek at the trailer.

Looks fantastic. Having known the method for a few months now, I can testify that it's even more exciting than the effect itself.

It's also probably the easiest method available, however it will take just a bit of practice to truly understand HOW it works.

This is one of the coolest and freshest principles in magic, and I'm excited to finally be able to use it. You won't be dissapointed.
Message: Posted by: DeeChristopherMagic (Jun 23, 2015 07:29PM)
This is really great stuff. The technology isn't that new, but the way it's utilised here is astounding. I saw early prototypes about a year ago and not only is it SO much fun to play with, it looks incredible too.

I can't wait to see the final gimmicks. It isn't often that something so practical and low-tech is hidden from an industry like ours, I have no doubt it'll make people think in a radically different way about visual magic.
Message: Posted by: Billman (Jun 23, 2015 07:29PM)
Lloyds going to break the Internet with this thing! This looks Soooooo good!
Message: Posted by: DeeChristopherMagic (Jun 23, 2015 07:35PM)
Haha, hopefully he won't break the internet in the same way Kim did... I'm not sure I could handle that image. ><
Message: Posted by: magic168 (Jun 23, 2015 10:36PM)
Where can one see this trailer? :)
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jun 23, 2015 11:42PM)
Price?
Message: Posted by: Billman (Jun 23, 2015 11:53PM)
Usually for something like this the price is your soul... But luckily E! is running a great special
Message: Posted by: SimonTheSorcerer (Jun 24, 2015 03:21AM)
"You must be a "Black Club Member" to purchase this product" - Black Club Membership $150

...that about the price...no thanks
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 24, 2015 03:24AM)
The price is $29.95 when it goes on sale to the general public in 11 hours.
Message: Posted by: SimonTheSorcerer (Jun 24, 2015 05:06AM)
Ok, sorry! Thanks for clearify
Message: Posted by: BitterBrewerAZ (Jun 24, 2015 07:22AM)
Where is the link for black club members to purchase? I've searched the site from top to bottom and don't see it.
Message: Posted by: nukraze (Jun 24, 2015 09:05AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, BitterBrewerAZ wrote:
Where is the link for black club members to purchase? I've searched the site from top to bottom and don't see it. [/quote]

If you're a Black Club member you should have received an email yesterday from Ellusionist. They don't usually post links on the site.

One thing to note that I haven't seen elsewhere yet - the product page notes a shipping date of June 28th, so this is technically a preorder. Just FYI.
Message: Posted by: nukraze (Jun 24, 2015 10:52AM)
Sorry, just saw a note from Ellusionist on their facebook page that they had to shut down the Change page for Black Club due to a leak of the link. Looks like it will be live for everyone later today.
Message: Posted by: samdan (Jun 24, 2015 02:33PM)
Sashac,

Is it easy enough for a hobbyist to do? Not a kid, but an adult with a full time job who likes good and easy effects. Practice is fine, just not interested in hours on hours as I do magic for fun for family and friends. No gigs etc. Thanks for your insight.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 24, 2015 02:37PM)
In the demo the card is never shown from the side. I wonder how normal or thick the card is? The rope through the card was edited so I wonder how that effect truly is? I also wonder how long this will last with regular usage. My card magic is 99% gimmickless because I don't want to have to rely on something breaking/not working. But I am always open to gaffs. I learned a long time ago how gimmicked cards/boxes etc. are just not 100% reliable and got sick of wasting money on them.

Answers to the above questions would be great!

Thanks,
RNK
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 24, 2015 02:41PM)
I bet those angles are tricky with multiple spectators.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 02:41PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, samdan wrote:
Sashac,

Is it easy enough for a hobbyist to do? Not a kid, but an adult with a full time job who likes good and easy effects. Practice is fine, just not interested in hours on hours as I do magic for fun for family and friends. No gigs etc. Thanks for your insight. [/quote]


It's almost self-working mate.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 24, 2015 02:43PM)
Well, I drank the Kool-Aid on this, just for fun :) Ordered about 10 minutes ago.

I have a sneaking suspicion I know how it is done, but its just a guess. I'll know a few days after it ships on the 28th, assuming no delays.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 24, 2015 02:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Well, I drank the Kool-Aid on this, just for fun :) Ordered about 10 minutes ago.

I have a sneaking suspicion I know how it is done, but its just a guess. I'll know a few days after it ships on the 28th, assuming no delays. [/quote]

Maybe you can answer my questions I posted above. I am skeptical since GeraintClarke answered someone else's questions but not mine.

Thanks Chessman!

RNK
Message: Posted by: otreboR (Jun 24, 2015 02:50PM)
It would be nice to see a live performance.
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 24, 2015 02:57PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, RNK wrote:
In the demo the card is never shown from the side. I wonder how normal or thick the card is? The rope through the card was edited so I wonder how that effect truly is? I also wonder how long this will last with regular usage. My card magic is 99% gimmickless because I don't want to have to rely on something breaking/not working. But I am always open to gaffs. I learned a long time ago how gimmicked cards/boxes etc. are just not 100% reliable and got sick of wasting money on them.

Answers to the above questions would be great!

Thanks,
RNK [/quote]

To answer a few of your questions. Yes this can be seen from the side as this is practically a normal card. These will last for years. No heat or special inks. These will 100% not break during performance. The headphone through card was only cut because I filmed the clip myself and couldn't tilt the camera. What you see is what you get. You receive 5 gimmicks ready to go that will last a life time.

I know you weren't RNK but I urge people to please not fish for methods.

Thank you to everyone else so far.

See the full trailer here: [url=http://www.ellusionist.com/change-by-lloyd-barnes.html]CHANGE by Lloyd Barnes[/url]
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 24, 2015 03:02PM)
I've ordered as well. I'm pretty positive I know the method. It seems like there will only be one issue here, which may not be a problem since that's quite literally all you would have to worry about.

That said, I am looking forward to receiving it and playing with the gimmicks! The effects all look really great, and I'm very excited. I haven't preordered in a very very long time (if ever.)

Here's to hoping this doesn't get delayed!


Can't wait, thanks for releasing it, Lloyd,
Madison
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 24, 2015 03:04PM)
At this point, all we can say is, "Is this effect worth it even if you can only effectively perform it from the same angles as you see in the trailer?" because that is all we have to go on.

For me, the answer is yes. But we won't know for sure until people get it and review. And remember, there are only 999 of these :) I'm sure that's true, but I can't imagine they wouldn't do another run if it were financially warranted. But I'm certainly not in the know, so take that with a BIG grain of salt.
Message: Posted by: Dapperdan (Jun 24, 2015 03:08PM)
Lloyd... thanks for your frank reply to RNK! I love reading this forum and am disappointed when people fish (or even worse - reveal) methods!

I just ordered Change and am looking forward to incorporating it into my card routine!
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jun 24, 2015 03:09PM)
Is it possible to do a full view change of the front of the card? Like Morpheus but with the other side of the card?

I ordered already though.
Can't wait. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 24, 2015 03:11PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
And remember, there are only 999 of these :) I'm sure that's true, but I can't imagine they wouldn't do another run if it were financially warranted. [/quote]

That's where volume 2 comes in ;)


The only real question I have is what coins can be used with Forge?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 24, 2015 03:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:

The only real question I have is what coins can be used with Forge? [/quote]

Probably a dollar-sized coin.
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 24, 2015 03:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
At this point, all we can say is, "Is this effect worth it even if you can only effectively perform it from the same angles as you see in the trailer?" because that is all we have to go on.

For me, the answer is yes. But we won't know for sure until people get it and review. And remember, there are only 999 of these :) I'm sure that's true, but I can't imagine they wouldn't do another run if it were financially warranted. But I'm certainly not in the know, so take that with a BIG grain of salt. [/quote]

These are 100% real world practical. We have live performances videos coming over the next coming weeks. We held back because the main video speaks for itself and this is what your audience will and does see. These can be performed from a multitude of practical angles and everything is explained from myself and Daniel Madison in the explanation videos in great detail.

Quite simply; [b]My creation would not be on the market if I did not perform it for real people and get incredible reactions[/b] For me, to release magic which is impractical is totally pointless. I leave that sort of business to other companies.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 24, 2015 03:18PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
At this point, all we can say is, "Is this effect worth it even if you can only effectively perform it from the same angles as you see in the trailer?" because that is all we have to go on.

For me, the answer is yes. But we won't know for sure until people get it and review. And remember, there are only 999 of these :) I'm sure that's true, but I can't imagine they wouldn't do another run if it were financially warranted. But I'm certainly not in the know, so take that with a BIG grain of salt. [/quote]

These are 100% real world practical. We have live performances videos coming over the next coming weeks. We held back because the main video speaks for itself and this is what your audience will and does see. These can be performed from a multitude of practical angles and everything is explained from myself and Daniel Madison in the explanation videos in great detail.

Quite simply; [b]My creation would not be on the market if I did not perform it for real people and get incredible reactions[/b] For me, to release magic which is impractical is totally pointless. I leave that sort of business to other companies. [/quote]


So nice to hear a creator say that :)

We need more people that perform their creations in the real world before they sell them. I can't stand creators who have clearly never tried out their own product.
Message: Posted by: Fire Starter (Jun 24, 2015 03:20PM)
I am watching this one very closely with interest.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 03:23PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
I've ordered as well. I'm pretty positive I know the method. It seems like there will only be one issue here, which may not be a problem since that's quite literally all you would have to worry about.

That said, I am looking forward to receiving it and playing with the gimmicks! The effects all look really great, and I'm very excited. I haven't preordered in a very very long time (if ever.)

Here's to hoping this doesn't get delayed!


Can't wait, thanks for releasing it, Lloyd,
Madison [/quote]

We never say never..... but unless someone lets that T-rex off the Island in Jurassic World, and it goes after our warehouse staff, then you'll get your CHANGE as normal.

- G
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 24, 2015 03:25PM)
Lloyd, this is very good to hear. Thank you for saying.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 24, 2015 03:26PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
I've ordered as well. I'm pretty positive I know the method. It seems like there will only be one issue here, which may not be a problem since that's quite literally all you would have to worry about.

That said, I am looking forward to receiving it and playing with the gimmicks! The effects all look really great, and I'm very excited. I haven't preordered in a very very long time (if ever.)

Here's to hoping this doesn't get delayed!


Can't wait, thanks for releasing it, Lloyd,
Madison [/quote]

We never say never..... but unless someone lets that T-rex off the Island in Jurassic World, and it goes after our warehouse staff, then you'll get your CHANGE as normal.

- G [/quote]


I'll call the production staff and tell them to keep their dinosaurs on tight watch :)
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jun 24, 2015 04:17PM)
Are there any environmental factors we need to worry about? And how self contained is this?
Message: Posted by: Magic KL (Jun 24, 2015 04:23PM)
It looks really good. Question about the gimmick. It was mentioned that we get five gimmicks. Is it five of the same gimmick, or do you need one gimmick for each effect?

Thanks.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:27PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Magic KL wrote:
It looks really good. Question about the gimmick. It was mentioned that we get five gimmicks. Is it five of the same gimmick, or do you need one gimmick for each effect?

Thanks. [/quote]

1 of each gimmick for the 5 effects taught on change.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:28PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, seanksutton wrote:
Are there any environmental factors we need to worry about? And how self contained is this? [/quote]

I'm not even sure what this means?

Self-contained to one card or coin gimmick per effect.. there are 5 effects with your purchase.

- G.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 24, 2015 04:29PM)
Looks great, though it's pretty clear how it's done, right? I showed the trailer to my partner who said; 'Looks like X to me'. They do look very well-made. I'm looking forward to Part 2's (and onwards) ideas more than this batch - there could be some very interesting applications where perhaps the method isn't so close to the effect, if you see what I mean. Be interesting to see what else comes of this.

(Though I do wish the hyperbole would be turned down a little. "Change your life", "Change your magic forever", "Destroy the limitations of what's possible in Magic". Better hope they don't grab that card off you quickly, or your life-changing magical limitations might be restored very quickly.)
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jun 24, 2015 04:30PM)
I assume he means lighting conditions, indoors/outdoors, etc.?
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:39PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
I assume he means lighting conditions, indoors/outdoors, etc.? [/quote]

I'll leave that one for Lloyd to answer. I think it's tungston light that's the one to avoid. Other lighting should be perfect (indoors and out)


- G
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jun 24, 2015 04:40PM)
Quick question for Lloyd or anyone else who can answer before I hit the buy button, can the card for morpheus be handed out if need be or would a switch be needed?

Kieran
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jun 24, 2015 04:42PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
I assume he means lighting conditions, indoors/outdoors, etc.? [/quote]

Yep, that's what I meant! And thanks Geraint!
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:42PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, robd wrote:
Better hope they don't grab that card off you quickly, or your life-changing magical limitations might be restored very quickly.) [/quote]

You could say that about all gimmicked magic Rob. Literally you don't want anyone snatching your gimmicks. Audience management and experience will overcome this.

If you do have people snatching your stuff from you at gigs still, shoot me a PM, and I'll help you overcome it.

Geraint
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:43PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, magicman29 wrote:
Quick question for Lloyd or anyone else who can answer before I hit the buy button, can the card for morpheus be handed out if need be or would a switch be needed?

Kieran [/quote]

It can't be handed out, but Lloyd and Madison teach it on the DVD so it's as easy as a double turnover.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 24, 2015 04:45PM)
Any help on the size of the coin for forge?
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 24, 2015 04:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, robd wrote:
Better hope they don't grab that card off you quickly, or your life-changing magical limitations might be restored very quickly.) [/quote]

You could say that about all gimmicked magic Rob. Literally you don't want anyone snatching your gimmicks. Audience management and experience will overcome this.

If you do have people snatching your stuff from you at gigs still, shoot me a PM, and I'll help you overcome it.

Geraint [/quote]

Of course Geraint, but here the gimmick IS the effect which places a hell of a lot of heat on it. Which is why I think effects (like maybe the headphone one) are going to be more practical than the card changing colour, as beautiful as that looks. Where the method is more subtly used, basically.

(My comment was really sarcasm aimed at the hyperbole though, rather than the effect/method).
Message: Posted by: philipmuller97 (Jun 24, 2015 04:55PM)
Just one question: can this be done with the front/face of the card too?

Thanks in advice!
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 24, 2015 04:56PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, robd wrote:

(My comment was really sarcasm aimed at the hyperbole though, rather than the effect/method). [/quote]


Sorry man, I ignored your sarcasm, but if you're worried then maybe this isn't for you. I hate omni deck, yet thousands of people work it.

Magic is all about what suits your personal style and your skill level.

- G.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 24, 2015 04:59PM)
Agreed, Omni deck sucks.
Message: Posted by: Critisizer (Jun 24, 2015 06:58PM)
I'm actually looking forward to reviews on this one
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jun 24, 2015 07:11PM)
Idk if it's just me, but it almost reminds me of those stickers I used to have as a kid that when you turn them one way they change.. Like a filter over the top.

Not saying this is the method, but it reminded me of those lol.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jun 24, 2015 07:23PM)
I'm not a card guy but a friend brought this to my attention and to me it looks like re-working of the classic w*w gimmick. That's my guess folks and I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Price seems very reasonable.

If I may ask what happens if the spec wants to examine the card?
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 24, 2015 07:37PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, saysold1 wrote:
I'm not a card guy but a friend brought this to my attention and to me it looks like re-working of the classic w*w gimmick. That's my guess folks and I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Price seems very reasonable.

If I may ask what happens if the spec wants to examine the card? [/quote]
Very, very different to a Wow gimmick. Worlds apart.

Myself and Daniel Madison cover this extensively on the explanation; if you can do a double lift, you can do CHANGE. You will [b]never[/b] be asked by them to see the card. All is explained in the instructions.

Please can everyone stop trying to publicly "guess" the method now?
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jun 24, 2015 07:37PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, magicman29 wrote:
Quick question for Lloyd or anyone else who can answer before I hit the buy button, can the card for morpheus be handed out if need be or would a switch be needed?

Kieran [/quote]
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jun 24, 2015 07:39PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, saysold1 wrote:
I'm not a card guy but a friend brought this to my attention and to me it looks like re-working of the classic w*w gimmick. That's my guess folks and I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Price seems very reasonable.

If I may ask what happens if the spec wants to examine the card? [/quote]
Very, very different to a Wow gimmick. Worlds apart.

Myself and Daniel Madison cover this extensively on the explanation; if you can do a double lift, you can do CHANGE. You will [b]never[/b] be asked by them to see the card. All is explained in the instructions.

Please can everyone stop trying to publicly "guess" the method now? [/quote]

Thanks for the great explanation - but guesses prior to a new release is and always has been part of the allowable rules and DNA of this section of the Café. Drives creators and people like Peter Nardi crazy at times.
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 24, 2015 07:43PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, saysold1 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, saysold1 wrote:
I'm not a card guy but a friend brought this to my attention and to me it looks like re-working of the classic w*w gimmick. That's my guess folks and I'm sure I'm not the first to come to that conclusion. Price seems very reasonable.

If I may ask what happens if the spec wants to examine the card? [/quote]
Very, very different to a Wow gimmick. Worlds apart.

Myself and Daniel Madison cover this extensively on the explanation; if you can do a double lift, you can do CHANGE. You will [b]never[/b] be asked by them to see the card. All is explained in the instructions.

Please can everyone stop trying to publicly "guess" the method now? [/quote]

Thanks for the great explanation - but guesses prior to a new release is and always has been part of the allowable rules and DNA of this section of the Café. Drives creators and people like Peter Nardi crazy at times. [/quote]
Understandable. Just seems impolite. I remember starting out I would take wild stabs at methods that people at worked on for a long time. Then I realised that's not how we act if trying to show respect towards one and other.
Message: Posted by: kollo (Jun 25, 2015 12:00AM)
Hi Lloyd,

doing Morpheus in a parlour/stage situation,
-is it possible to show the front of the card (for at least a blink, a casual turnover)?
- can the morpheus card be handled like a regular card, for example in a packet trick?

Thanks,
Kollo
Message: Posted by: TheAmazingSteveo (Jun 25, 2015 01:11AM)
This looks very Cool Lloyd,

I purchased one today at Ellusionst. I have a lot of ideas putting this into
some routines that I do now.
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jun 25, 2015 01:52AM)
Lloyd I don't think people are trying to guess the method, we are just asking questions about the handling of the gimmicks....Are we not entitled to ask a couple of questions before we purchase?

Kieran
Message: Posted by: RedHatMagic (Jun 25, 2015 01:58AM)
Asking magicians not to try to work out methods is like asking cats not to chase mice.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jun 25, 2015 03:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
Then I realised that's not how we act if trying to show respect towards one and other. [/quote]

You must be new here...
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jun 25, 2015 04:02AM)
This looks very clever, but I wonder if spectators will just think to themselves (regarding the slow colour change) "it's just a special card that changes colour by itself". So rather than attributing the change to some kind of skill on the part of the magician like most 'mechanical' colour changes, it might look more like just a self-working special card.

Can you get the card to change by itself? So, for example, can you show it as red, place it face up on the table and it will be blue when it's turned over? Or perhaps effect the change quickly as you turn the card over?

Also, are the blue/red colours of the deck an exact colour match of regular cards?
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 25, 2015 06:44AM)
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me.
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 25, 2015 06:52AM)
"Life-changing" and "change the face of magic forever" are both essentially meaningless phrases. Your life changes every second, and I'm not quite sure what the 'face of magic' actually is.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 25, 2015 06:55AM)
Thanks Lloyd for answering my questions. Good luck with the release! In my case, I am to careless to take care of one gimmick let alone 5 different gimmicks, lol. They always end up getting broke or destroyed which is why I took the old school route to learn the sleights. IMO and experience, layman are just as amazed with sleight of hand card magic without gimmicks if presented right. Does not mean I do not love the visual aspect gimmicked card magic accomplishes. Just means I have learned in the majority of my professional working strolling environments they are not for me.

That being said, IMO, without seeing the gimmicks and based on the demo vid, it seems the price is right for what you get if this is what you like.

RNK
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 25, 2015 06:57AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, robd wrote:
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me. [/quote]

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jun 25, 2015 07:03AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Well, I drank the Kool-Aid on this, just for fun :) Ordered about 10 minutes ago.

I have a sneaking suspicion I know how it is done, but its just a guess. I'll know a few days after it ships on the 28th, assuming no delays. [/quote]

Chessman,

Thanks for sharing some of the Kool-Aid with me.

I drank it, too.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 25, 2015 07:14AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, robd wrote:
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me. [/quote]

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you. [/quote]

Maybe. But there are creators out there such as Tony Miller, JM and Cameron Francis to name a few that DO show you FULL uncut performances of what you get and because of this get a lot of sales. They understand they are selling to magicians whether hobbyists or professionals and want us to be as informed as we can to make our decision on whether or not the product/effect is something that will work for us. It's not about trying to sell the product to everybody, it's about whether the product will fit the performer. To me, this shows they have great admiration and respect for the art and the performers.

Though, I understand for most it's about sell sell sell. Which is understandable, after all a lot of creators depend on this as it's their livelihood. Though, IMO, there is greater respect for those creators that are willing to show the entire routine for buyers to base their purchasing decision.

RNK
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jun 25, 2015 07:54AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, robd wrote:
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me. [/quote]

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you. [/quote]

Maybe. But there are creators out there such as Tony Miller, JM and Cameron Francis to name a few that DO show you FULL uncut performances of what you get and because of this get a lot of sales. They understand they are selling to magicians whether hobbyists or professionals and want us to be as informed as we can to make our decision on whether or not the product/effect is something that will work for us. It's not about trying to sell the product to everybody, it's about whether the product will fit the performer. To me, this shows they have great admiration and respect for the art and the performers.

Though, I understand for most it's about sell sell sell. Which is understandable, after all a lot of creators depend on this as it's their livelihood. Though, IMO, there is greater respect for those creators that are willing to show the entire routine for buyers to base their purchasing decision.

RNK [/quote]

I agree RNK. I always show the full product before I bury it so the customer has a great idea of what they are getting. They touch them, kiss them, and handle them. (I hate to have to dig them back up.) I also want to say that the comment earlier that you were fishing was uncalled for, in my opinion, and such a direct accusation I find a bit offensive. (Besides, you probably would not be able to build the gimmick if you knew the method and makes me wonder if I would still buy this if I knew the method.)Any question could be seen as fishing if a person was a bit paranoid about it, but I see a lot of later post that really does look like fishing and nothing was said. Actually, before I put down almost $35 total I would have liked more information and a live performance. I once bought a DVD from a major producer for a single effect and when the DVD came the method of the effect wasn't revealed. I and others protested but was told it was a personal handling preference. No money was ever refunded; I felt duped so I have never ordered from that company again and that has been several years and thousands of dollars ago. That said, I thought the 5 gimmicks and DVD were fairly priced and will trust the creator that it is what it is said to be, so I ordered this and hope it is what it says. If not, $34 will not bankrupt me. I will post an honest review when I receive mine. I hope someday someone will create a magic prop that the method can be revealed in its entirety to the magic fraternity and the magi will say, "Wow! Got to buy that." But, that isn't likely to happen.

May all your funerals begin with FUN,
Weepin' Willie
House of Discount Funerals and Birthing Center
"Your last mile is always my first priority!"
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 25, 2015 08:03AM)
Thanks Weepin Willie. I was going to address Dapperdan but he is a newbie and the regulars who know me here understand that's not what I am about. Lloyd understood me. Anyway- I look forward to your review. When a company is super hyping a product as they are with CHANGE it's always refreshing to read reviews from purchasers. Especially ones like yourself.

RNK
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 25, 2015 08:09AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you. [/quote]

So to paraphrase: "This trick which is going to 'change the face of magic' can't be shown in full, or you'll be less likely to buy it."

Anyway - you're missing my point. My reply was making the point that complaining that people are discussing the method of an effect which you've extensively hyped and have HUGE claims for, yet is also one which you can't see the full effect from start to finish, is a bit ridiculous. IMHO. Etc.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jun 25, 2015 08:17AM)
Well said, Willie.
Message: Posted by: DynaMix (Jun 25, 2015 09:01AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, robd wrote:
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me. [/quote]

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you. [/quote]

Maybe. But there are creators out there such as Tony Miller, JM and Cameron Francis to name a few that DO show you FULL uncut performances of what you get and because of this get a lot of sales. They understand they are selling to magicians whether hobbyists or professionals and want us to be as informed as we can to make our decision on whether or not the product/effect is something that will work for us. It's not about trying to sell the product to everybody, it's about whether the product will fit the performer. To me, this shows they have great admiration and respect for the art and the performers.

Though, I understand for most it's about sell sell sell. Which is understandable, after all a lot of creators depend on this as it's their livelihood. Though, IMO, there is greater respect for those creators that are willing to show the entire routine for buyers to base their purchasing decision.

RNK [/quote]

Posts like this are what keep me here. 100% spot on.

If the "method" is good enough it should actually SPUR sales, not slow them down.
If the routine adds nothing new to the plot or is wildly impractical it belongs in the junk drawer with all of the other garbage.
Simple additions such as "diy project" or "takes one time set up" are frequently left out and thereby leave customers burned. ALL the time.

It's not about sell sell sell. It should be about quality. Contribute something meaningful and you will actually move things forward as well as build the kind of customer base you want.

99% of products I have learned to wait for reviews on. The biggest compliment I can give a creator is when they make it to that 1% and I'm WILLING to preorder. Because I TRUST them.
Message: Posted by: Gorecki (Jun 25, 2015 09:36AM)
Very sweet looking effects, and I'm not sure how it's done.
But here's what's stopping me: it looks so much like lenticulars that even if that's not how it's done, I'm afraid most spectators will assume it is.
And as we all know, if they *think* they found the solution, then in their minds, the magic is gone (whether or not their theory is right).

That's why convincers abound, especially when it comes to stage magic. Copperfield sure *looks* like he's suspended from wires, right?
Well, we'll show you enough "proofs" to convince you that it couldn't be the case. Otherwise, spectators just go "He's suspended from wires" and that's the end of it.
Message: Posted by: magicinsight (Jun 25, 2015 10:01AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, robd wrote:
If I'd released an effect which was extensively hyped as 'life-changing' and claimed to 'change the face of magic forever', I'd expect some debate online about what it actually was. Particularly if it was on sale as pre-order, with a limited supply, and the only demo of it was a "no-spectator, fixed camera angle, zero set-up and clean-up" video. I certainly wouldn't suggest that such debate was impolite or showed a lack of respect.

But that's just me. [/quote]

The reason magic companies make those trailers, is because people see a double lift and dismiss the power of the effect. Or people exclaim " I KNOW HOW IT'S DONE "

The method is the least important thing in magic, it's the effect that's important. Clean-ups and get-readys will be taught with the product, but as magicians we'll all be able to re-engineer it from the trailer, and people are less likely to want to see the entire thing. Much like a movie only shows highlights in a trailer, to get you to go and see the film.

The trailer isn't there to teach you the trick, it's there to sell it to you. [/quote]

Maybe. But there are creators out there such as Tony Miller, JM and Cameron Francis to name a few that DO show you FULL uncut performances of what you get and because of this get a lot of sales. They understand they are selling to magicians whether hobbyists or professionals and want us to be as informed as we can to make our decision on whether or not the product/effect is something that will work for us. It's not about trying to sell the product to everybody, it's about whether the product will fit the performer. To me, this shows they have great admiration and respect for the art and the performers.

Though, I understand for most it's about sell sell sell. Which is understandable, after all a lot of creators depend on this as it's their livelihood. Though, IMO, there is greater respect for those creators that are willing to show the entire routine for buyers to base their purchasing decision.

RNK [/quote]

Totally agree. I think creators who are honest in their approach and show full, unedited performances from start to finish will see an increase in their sales and in their reputation. Anyone who bought any high end item ($1,250 and up)from Richard Gerlitz knows that not only can you see a full performance of the effect on his web site (gerlitzmagic.com) but he also provides openly provides a link for the full explanation of the mechanics. His items are always sold out and are hard to come by. While he is able to show a full explanation of the mechanics because he knows no one is able to reproduce the effects, and no one is suggesting that any creator of magic explain how is it done, but it shows that if you are honest with the potential buyers, the effect will stand on its own merits and will sell if it is a good effect. Glad that David Penn took that approach when he posted several unedited videos of full performances of his new effect, The Vault. In the short run it will increase sells and in the long run it will establish good relationships with buyers.

Michael
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jun 25, 2015 10:14AM)
Quote: "Totally agree. I think creators who are honest in their approach and show full, unedited performances from start to finish will see an increase in their sales and in their reputation. Anyone who bought any high end item ($1,250 and up)from Richard Gerlitz knows that not only can you see a full performance of the effect on his web site (gerlitzmagic.com) but he also provides openly provides a link for the full explanation of the mechanics. His items are always sold out and are hard to come by. While he is able to show a full explanation of the mechanics because he knows no one is able to reproduce the effects, and no one is suggesting that any creator of magic explain how is it done, but it shows that if you are honest with the potential buyers, the effect will stand on its own merits and will sell if it is a good effect. Glad that David Penn took that approach when he posted several unedited videos of full performances of his new effect, The Vault. In the short run it will increase sells and in the long run it will establish good relationships with buyers.

Michael

That's why we only open the coffin half way in the American way of death; the cadaver does not have any shoes. If we opened the entire casket people would think they had been cheated by not including those expensive alligator skin boots the customer came in with.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jun 25, 2015 10:34AM)
Don't get all Joe Pesci from "Goodfellas" on me for saying this, Will, but you're a very funny guy!
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jun 25, 2015 10:36AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Stucky wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
Then I realised that's not how we act if trying to show respect towards one and other. [/quote]

You must be new here... [/quote]

Exactly. As Joan Rivers used to famously say ... "oh grow up!"
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jun 25, 2015 10:40AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, RNK wrote:
In the demo the card is never shown from the side. I wonder how normal or thick the card is? The rope through the card was edited so I wonder how that effect truly is? I also wonder how long this will last with regular usage. My card magic is 99% gimmickless because I don't want to have to rely on something breaking/not working. But I am always open to gaffs. I learned a long time ago how gimmicked cards/boxes etc. are just not 100% reliable and got sick of wasting money on them.

Answers to the above questions would be great!

Thanks,
RNK [/quote]

To answer a few of your questions. Yes this can be seen from the side as this is practically a normal card. These will last for years. No heat or special inks. These will 100% not break during performance. The headphone through card was only cut because I filmed the clip myself and couldn't tilt the camera. What you see is what you get. You receive 5 gimmicks ready to go that will last a life time.
[/quote]


Can Morpheus be done with the face of the card??
Also why was there no camera man? "This is a concept that is supposed to change magic and change my life (not to mention "the creator had to be flown in" Here is the quote from the email---- "Brad has seen, learnt or perfected every magic trick that's crossed his path in the last 15 years of Ellusionist. He saw it, and flew the artist 5,000 miles from the UK to San Francisco before he'd managed to get his jaw back up from the floor. " And you still can't get a camera man?
I don't get it. Anyone else? There is always at least one person around me to film something for me unless I am rushing or the project does not need multiple angles. C'mon Ellusionist. You're the company that got me into magic. Go back to your roots!
I like the product, I bought one, and I support you Lloyd but it is little things like this that make the project seem rushed for money.
Thanks!
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Jun 25, 2015 10:50AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Stucky wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
Then I realised that's not how we act if trying to show respect towards one and other. [/quote]

You must be new here... [/quote]

Exactly. As Joan Rivers used to famously say ... "oh grow up!"

So as a mentalist I can predict Lloyds response: He probably already avoids the Café because he sees this as some kind of swirl of "negativity" and sniping and just filled with meanie part time hobbiests.

But like other creators who typically avoid the Café - man do they show up with enthusiasm when they need us and want to sell us something.

Lloyd - this a fine community with some helpful and intelligent discourse. Be a good sport and play nice - if your product is amazing and groundbreaking you can and should sell loads of them. But don't come barging in and expect to control the discourse - it's not going to happen.

Let me suggest you now focus on your wonderful new product. If things are getting a little heated here it's solely of your own doing.

Cheers and hope you sell a bundle although I will be watching from the sidelines.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 25, 2015 10:50AM)
Just got an email from E saying they sold out the first day and they are producing another 999 copies.

Chessman must be psychic ;)
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jun 25, 2015 11:18AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, saysold1 wrote:

Lloyd - this a fine community with some helpful and intelligent discourse. Be a good sport and play nice - if your product is amazing and groundbreaking you can and should sell loads of them. But don't come barging in and expect to control the discourse - it's not going to happen.
[/quote]

Lloyd has made a career out of controlling his audience (I believe that he said that he'll teach you how to control the grabbers if you PM him), but this audience is one that will be impossible to control.

And that's not a bad thing.

But, Lloyd, I do have trouble controlling grabbers, so maybe I'll PM you for some help there.

And I was one of the 999 buyers of this item
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jun 25, 2015 11:31AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, saysold1 wrote:

Lloyd - this a fine community with some helpful and intelligent discourse. Be a good sport and play nice - if your product is amazing and groundbreaking you can and should sell loads of them. But don't come barging in and expect to control the discourse - it's not going to happen.
[/quote]

Lloyd has made a career out of controlling his audience (I believe that he said that he'll teach you how to control the grabbers if you PM him), but this audience is one that will be impossible to control.

And that's not a bad thing.

But, Lloyd, I do have trouble controlling grabbers, so maybe I'll PM you for some help there.

And I was one of the 999 buyers of this item [/quote]

I agree- this is so visual that simply moving on to another effect or a double lift may not suffice for a lot of audiences.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 25, 2015 11:43AM)
Thanks, Maddy :)

I can't believe some of the childishness here. Among other things, it is as if people have completely ignored Lloyd's statement that full video performances are on the way (obviously, he needs to deliver on what he promises...).

Lloyd, don't bother.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 25, 2015 11:46AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:

Lloyd has made a career out of controlling his audience (I believe that he said that he'll teach you how to control the grabbers if you PM him), but this audience is one that will be impossible to control.

And that's not a bad thing.

But, Lloyd, I do have trouble controlling grabbers, so maybe I'll PM you for some help there.

[/quote]

You're saying GeraintClarke is Lloyd Barnes?
Message: Posted by: Merenkov (Jun 25, 2015 11:48AM)
I think the “fishing” is bad form, but I get it. When you can’t see a performance in person, when your only exposure is via an idealized viewing angle (the video camera’s), it’s hard to know exactly how it will play in the real world. That said, it amazes me that people will still buy something like this just based on a video performance (and no actual reviews), but I’m glad those people exist. I anxiously await your reviews!
Message: Posted by: JordanVictoria (Jun 25, 2015 11:48AM)
Lloyd showed me this about a year ago and I felt in love with this at the moment I saw the change!
This is so powerful and the possibilities/ways to use those gimmicks are endless.

What's awesome here is that for only $30 you have not only one but 5 gimmicks to perform miracles!
Some other companies would have sold them separately for the same price so thanks you Ellusionist for that!!

Lloyd would never release an effect that is not practical and usable in real life. He has a very creative mind and I'm very proud to say he is a friend of I !

Thanks you my friend to share this with us, I'm so impatient to receive my order! :)
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 25, 2015 12:13PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Merenkov wrote:
I think the “fishing” is bad form, but I get it. When you can’t see a performance in person, when your only exposure is via an idealized viewing angle (the video camera’s), it’s hard to know exactly how it will play in the real world. That said, it amazes me that people will still buy something like this just based on a video performance (and no actual reviews), but I’m glad those people exist. I anxiously await your reviews! [/quote]

I think Ellusionist (I actually wonder how much say Lloyd had in the trailer, as it is not being marketed not by Lloyd, but by Ellusionist) did well by showing the gimmicks close-up. You see very clearly what is happening and how it happens. This is the main selling point and purpose of the effect, but naturally, this choice leaves some other questions unanswered re: angles, though Lloyd did answer this earlier in the topic, and stated that live performances are coming. These, plus reviews will hopefully help greatly for those who's performance requirements for this effect would be broader than the current trailer shows.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jun 25, 2015 12:44PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:

Lloyd has made a career out of controlling his audience (I believe that he said that he'll teach you how to control the grabbers if you PM him), but this audience is one that will be impossible to control.

And that's not a bad thing.

But, Lloyd, I do have trouble controlling grabbers, so maybe I'll PM you for some help there.

[/quote]

You're saying GeraintClarke is Lloyd Barnes? [/quote]

No I'm not.

Did I make a mistake, and was it Geraint that stated that he would help with grabbers?

And I'm not making a dig at Lloyd; perhaps I should have said that all magicians certainly TRY to make a career at controlling their audiences.

Let me just tell you about my last encounter with a "grabber", although it wasn't exactly "grabbed".

I'm "friendly" with some motorcycle clubs in my area (because I work with a guy that is in one of them- I myself am not a member and do not ride and I am not a tough guy), and 2 or 3 or 4 times a year I go to club events to perform.

They are kind of fun, depending on your definition of fun. They usually feature a band or two, and beer and hot dogs and hamburgers, along with dwarf tossing and dunk tanks and wet t-shirt and Miss Full Throttle contests.

Three weekends ago I went to one, and I was at the beginning stage of performing Alex Lourido's "CAPtivated". I had 4 beer caps on my open palm, and while I was looking at a spec to my right, another one on my left went BAM, and knocked the 4 caps out of my hand.

Well, we all had a good laugh at that one, including me. I ended up walking away, and 15 minutes later I went looking for my gimmicks. Two of the four ended up lost.

But we all had a good laugh!

How do I prevent this, besides not performing at all for these kind of events?
Message: Posted by: taller8 (Jun 25, 2015 12:44PM)
I guess they are sold out according to the Ellusionist. I didn't know there were 999 magician/hobbyists in the world. :)

I was impressed by the video, the price, and the fact that you get a gimmick for ever shown effect. Nice job on the pricing.


I can understand a few practicality questions, but SOME people always take it way too far In here.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 25, 2015 12:53PM)
From what I understand, the download will be available on Sunday. So without product in hand, I'm sure there will still be a few reviews on the quality of teaching, live performances, angle issues, and etc. I know I will post one after watching the explanation. I will later post another one after I receive the gimmicks.
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jun 25, 2015 12:58PM)
Just ordered. Mostly because it looks sweet and Lloyd seems like a cool guy.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jun 25, 2015 03:28PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:
Don't get all Joe Pesci from "Goodfellas" on me for saying this, Will, but you're a very funny guy! [/quote]

No offense at all, Jack. I just tell it as I see it.
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jun 25, 2015 04:51PM)
999 copies sold that fast?.. Mmmkay..
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 25, 2015 06:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, TheDirectionalist wrote:
999 copies sold that fast?.. Mmmkay.. [/quote]

They did indeed.
Message: Posted by: Xaa (Jun 25, 2015 08:38PM)
They apparently still have some batch two product available. I was able to order a little while ago.
Message: Posted by: close_up_act (Jun 25, 2015 10:44PM)
Don't take this the wrong way, but I will wait for some reviews.... Don't get me wrong, this looks awesome and amazing but what trailer doesn't these days. Good luck and wish you the best!

J Rodriguez
God Bless
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Jun 25, 2015 11:52PM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, Gorecki wrote:
Very sweet looking effects, and I'm not sure how it's done.
But here's what's stopping me: it looks so much like lenticulars that even if that's not how it's done, I'm afraid most spectators will assume it is.
And as we all know, if they *think* they found the solution, then in their minds, the magic is gone (whether or not their theory is right).

That's why convincers abound, especially when it comes to stage magic. Copperfield sure *looks* like he's suspended from wires, right?
Well, we'll show you enough "proofs" to convince you that it couldn't be the case. Otherwise, spectators just go "He's suspended from wires" and that's the end of it. [/quote]

You hit it exactly, Gorecki. The visuals are beautiful and I have no doubt that Lloyd gets incredible reactions with this stuff but I don't like that the spectators have that solution, right or wrong, to grasp at. I'm curious to hear the 999 reviews though.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 26, 2015 12:16AM)
The great news is that the effects can be performed in such a way that they do not 'leave a trail,' and I think still be very effective. It never occurred to perform each one of the effects in the way they are shown in the trailer.
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (Jun 26, 2015 07:54AM)
All wait for reviews. Looks great but demos allways look great.
Message: Posted by: Woody. (Jun 26, 2015 08:31AM)
Well, the only question, finally, is : how does it work ?

LOL
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jun 26, 2015 09:00AM)
[quote]On Jun 25, 2015, close_up_act wrote:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I will wait for some reviews.... Don't get me wrong, this looks awesome and amazing but what trailer doesn't these days. Good luck and wish you the best!

J Rodriguez
God Bless [/quote]

As a discount mortician, I am always looking for deals. If they sold 999 copies the first day, as stated, and have ordered another batch of 999 copies, then out of 2000 sales I am sure a few will find their way to let's Make a Deal section because it is unthinkable that everyone will find it for them. You may be waiting for a review but I am waiting for the half off sale. Oh wait, I already ordered a copy.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jun 26, 2015 11:48AM)
I love the idea of this! I buy from Ellusionist without question. Everything I have ever bought from them has been SUPERB! I won't pre-order though. Got it in stock? I'll buy it. This "limited run" crap really burns me! Oh, only 999 copies! Awww, sold out! Yeah, right. When ya got 'em in stock, I'll get one.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 26, 2015 12:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Dougini wrote:
This "limited run" crap really burns me! Oh, only 999 copies! Awww, sold out! Yeah, right. When ya got 'em in stock, I'll get one.
[/quote]

But Doug, Doug, you don't understand! Yeah, there were only 999 ("we're not lying," they said!), so it was really miraculous that they could get another 999 in just a few days! And I'm sure it will really be a case of "when they're gone, they're gone!"

Maybe they meant that when the money coming [b]in[/b] for the effect is gone, [b]then[/b] they're gone. :P
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jun 26, 2015 12:51PM)
There's no way Ellusionist made only 999 of 'em. There must be the single last one. The 1000th one. Can I order it, please? :-)
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 26, 2015 01:11PM)
Gents,

We genuinely sold out of the first 999. I'm absolutely over the moon and thank everyone so far for supporting me. It's not often that someone can genuinely say they have a sell out release in just over 19 hours but I am now one of them.

If anyone [b]read[/b] the email sent out by the team, we've put an order for another 1,000 that [b]are not in stock yet[/b] and won't be until the estimated arrival date; Tuesday 28th of this month.

Unfortunately for those who enjoy the negativity, this isn't some marketing plot just so we can look like we sold out. We absolutely did. I am not egotistical, dishonest or arrogant enough to come on a forum and put my name on the line to lie about something like this.

Again, thank you to everyone else. Sometimes I do question why I release things when I read posts from the pessimists in this world but the overwhelming positivity from everyone else makes it all worth it.


Cheers,
Lloyd

Also, Daniltan, you can place a preorder for one that will be in stock and sent out on Tuesday. However, we're just about sold out from the preorder amount too so you will have to be quick.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jun 26, 2015 01:14PM)
Its a business I guess and creating false demand is a well used ploy. Not how I'd do things personally though. Its been said that they never said it was limited, but why mention 999 if its completely arbitrary and why not make that clearer? Or should we expect every new release to come with the number available. I still think this will be good. Whether or not its real world workable, is yet to be seen. Lloyd's stuff has always been good in the past but I'm struggling a little to understand how such an overhyped product wasnt hyped with a real world demo.

I bought it for a promo video so real world workable would be a bonus but not a deal breaker for what I want it for. I have high hopes though as I've not been let down by these guys before.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 26, 2015 01:26PM)
:) Lloyd, I don't think anyone is blaming you or holding you personally responsible for any of the marketing stuff. And re: whether Ellusionist actually did sell out the first 999 seems to be very low on the importance ladder, here (the way I read it, anyway).

Ellusionist left themselves open for a little humorous digging when they said "we've only got 999. We're not lying." While that may have been true, the very clear insinuation was that you better get it now or you'll risk getting left out, and now they've doubled their order pretty quickly! With all the hype this effect had combined with the stunning trailer, personally, I've no doubt they sold out the first run. It really wasn't a surprise that Ellusionist were well prepared to make more.

Ellusionist is a proven, quality dealer, no doubt, but its ok for us to find humor in their marketing from time to time.

Congratulations on what looks to be an excellent release.
Message: Posted by: Kronos9326 (Jun 26, 2015 01:33PM)
It's been a few years since I've posted here so I suppose this needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Having been around the block for a while with Ellusionist, I'll admit that when I first saw Change I was stumped. What I saw wasn't a polished performance, it was simply one of the staff saying 'Here, check this out.'

I had a few guesses as to what it was and I was wrong, but when I found out HOW it was done I thought it was brilliant, and still do.

That said, there's a few people here who are concerned with spectators trying to guess the method, yet don't realize the most of them try to guess the method for almost everything they see these days. Yes, they'll be guessing. Yes they'll want an explaination. A rock solid performance, with proper start/finish will alleviate almost all of the issues that might arise from the spectator's doubt.

For the purists who don't want to carry another gimmick.... your color changes may be good, but they don't look this good.

Buy it. I am. The creative among us will take this and run with this. Those who just want the latest will have to work a little harder. But I truly feel that it's worth your time and effort.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jun 26, 2015 02:03PM)
I hope I was not seen as one of the negatives. I like this. I really DON'T like waiting for something that sells out and is no longer available after being hyped for pre-order. Case in point? Jay Sankey's [i]Magus Capsule[/i]. Revolutionary! Next level Cups & Balls! Yeah? Try and find one today.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 26, 2015 02:22PM)
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jun 26, 2015 02:34PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]

Ellusionist sent out this email:

"Orders that were part of the initial 999 units will be sent out from our Warehouse at the beginning of next week, but we're extending the pre-order as we'll have an entirely new batch of 999 units, with CHANGE technology applied to the gimmicks delivered on Tuesday. (4 days from now). Anyone that's quick enough to get their hands on CHANGE from this moment on, will have their packages sent out from Tuesday next week, onwards."


So orders are going out very early next week it seems. It would be great if there was a streaming video in our account prior to shipping as they have done with some of their other products.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 26, 2015 02:44PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:

Sometimes I do question why I release things when I read posts from the pessimists in this world but the overwhelming positivity from everyone else makes it all worth it.
[/quote]

Don't be a baby. This is the real world - people question things and have opinions. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes their opinions are not the same as yours. It's not like you release these things out of the goodness of your heart; you do it because you make money from it, and run a business. You just turned over nearly $30k in 29 hours and you're complaining about a few posts on a magic forum because they weren't to your liking. FFS.
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jun 26, 2015 02:45PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 26, 2015 03:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now. [/quote]

Fantastic! I have been wondering about it for a while now. I imagined that was the case, thank you for confirming :)

Super stoked.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jun 26, 2015 05:27PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, robd wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:

Sometimes I do question why I release things when I read posts from the pessimists in this world but the overwhelming positivity from everyone else makes it all worth it.
[/quote]

Don't be a baby. This is the real world - people question things and have opinions. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes their opinions are not the same as yours. It's not like you release these things out of the goodness of your heart; you do it because you make money from it, and run a business. You just turned over nearly $30k in 29 hours and you're complaining about a few posts on a magic forum because they weren't to your liking. FFS. [/quote]

Amen to that! The hype is way over the top in my humble opinion and it was obvious right from the get-go due to the language used in the emails I have received (so far). "The last color change you'll ever need". Yeah, ok. Except that I don't "need" nor desire to be taking gimmicks everywhere, every time I want to perform card magic, thanks very much, so even if it was the best color change I've ever seen it certainly wouldn't be the last one I'd ever "need". So whether or not the angles are practical, and whether or not one has to have certain lighting conditions, I will be quite happy sticking to my repertoire of perfectly practical, gimmickless color changes that are tried and tested and floor people every time.

The stream of hype and subsequent emails updating you AGAIN on how "life changing" it is and how "It blew-up the magic industry yesterday" might work for teenagers who aren't yet tired of excessive marketing techniques, but I for one find it really tacky and off-putting. It's just another gimmick, and I'm sure some people will use it to great effect, like so many other cool gimmicks out there already. Good luck to everyone who buys it and I hope it's enjoyable to use and gets you good reactions. But surprised? Proud.. that it sold out so quickly? Pull the other one. The hype and the over-the-top marketing strategies are why it sold so fast. With emails like that you could sell toenail clippings at the same frenetic pace!

I think that perhaps someone went on one of those marketing & nlp weekend lecture courses or something, because the language and marketing techniques being used in this email spamathon are transparent, cringe-worthy and over the top. I wouldn't touch this one with a barge pole purely for that reason, and I think the effect is underwhelming if you have any idea whatsoever about how it most likely works. "Revolutionary" it most certainly is not. Anyone over 30 will probably think its heat-generated or something similar, like those temperature strips mums used to have, and although they may well be wrong in their assumptions, as others have already pointed out; with the card being the main effect, the chances of being able to clean up with a dl and not have some serious suspicion to deal with are high, whether your audience management is great or not.

That said, as with many similar tricks, perform this for a crowd of half-drunk twenty-somethings and I'm sure there'll be time to ditch the gimmick without much of a problem. So overall, good luck, it looks great, but enough already with the o.t.t. marketing and the sulky "Sometimes I do question why I release things when I read posts from the pessimists". With the hype at the level you have chosen, OF COURSE there is going to be debate about the method. With the irritating marketing involved, OF COURSE there will be pessimism. Welcome to the real world. And btw, if it works the way I think it works (someone mentioned it earlier), then the animation on the buy page on Ellusionist, showing it sitting on a table changing all by itself, would be misleading and dishonest. I hope I'm wrong.
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jun 26, 2015 06:02PM)
"The last color change you'll ever need"

Until Change 2.0
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 26, 2015 06:11PM)
There are plenty of ways to use these without giving away the farm. There's a color changing deck effect I'm thinking of that would really be kicked up a notch with this. Like the Svengali Deck, generally the more subtle the use, the better. The trailer is good in this respect as it gives you a clear picture of that the effect does.

"And btw, if it works the way I think it works (someone mentioned it earlier), then the animation on the buy page on Ellusionist, showing it sitting on a table changing all by itself, would be misleading and dishonest. I hope I'm wrong."

Interesting. I went back and looked at that - dishonest marketing didn't occur to me on that score. Just a pic of the product is how I read it, like how it might of been in a catalog.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 26, 2015 06:40PM)
I agree. The images are clearly animated just to show what that particular gimmick does. I like that feature, actually. It's helpful and provides a nice visual representation of what the description is saying.


I am still super excited about this. I was quite certain I knew the method the moment I saw the trailer, but that just excited me even more! I think the visuals are INCREDIBLE. As they have said, it looks like real magic. It really does look like a camera effect. I haven't been this excited about an effect in a while.

It has nothing to do with the hype (which I do find annoying at times.) It has to do with the potential the gimmicks have. I can't wait to have the gimmicks in my hand. I know it will be great and well tested by Lloyd. I trust him.
Message: Posted by: oliversmith (Jun 26, 2015 06:56PM)
I have known Lloyd for quite a few years and was very lucky to see the early stages of this idea. It's clear he has put lots of time and effort into every aspect of this project.

I personally prefer the angel moving across than the red to blue change. It looks insane in real life.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jun 27, 2015 11:04AM)
It's sold out for the second time. Sorry to all those who didn't get a chance to buy this yet.


- G
Message: Posted by: VMagical (Jun 27, 2015 11:49AM)
I guess I'll wait for volume 2 lol.. or if anything comes up in the for sale section.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 02:04PM)
As somebody who has many years experience in the specialty printing business, I'm pretty sure I know what this is. If I am correct, I'm wondering how normal the gimmicks look in real life.

Also- at what point does it appear that the magic is not coming from the performer, but a mysterious prop? And is that a good thing?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 27, 2015 02:25PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Also- at what point does it appear that the magic is not coming from the performer, but a mysterious prop? And is that a good thing? [/quote]

Every audience knows that the source of the magic is either the magician or the prop. How that is managed to best effect is the resposibility of the magician.

A good performer can use a Svengali Deck without the audience ever suspecting it is a tricked up deck.

Assuming good quality and functionality, I think this is a very good thing.
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jun 27, 2015 05:16PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
As somebody who has many years experience in the specialty printing business, I'm pretty sure I know what this is. If I am correct, I'm wondering how normal the gimmicks look in real life.

Also- at what point does it appear that the magic is not coming from the performer, but a mysterious prop? And is that a good thing? [/quote]

Indeed. I posted similar thoughts earlier. I wonder if the red/blue color of the gimmicked card is a perfect match for regular cards. The eye notices such things very easily.
There is no way that slow color change of the card will be attributed to anything other than a 'special card' in the spectator's minds, as clever as it may be.

[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
A good performer can use a Svengali Deck without the audience ever suspecting it is a tricked up deck.
[/quote]

That is very true, but if you did the equivalent of the slow color change with the Svengali desk i.e. riffle the cards to show all different then immediately riffle to show them all the same, that just shouts 'clever prop'.

I'm not being negative about this new gimmicked card, I just think it's going to be more of a toy for magicians to play with than something that will 'change the face of magic'! (not that there's anything wrong with with new toys).

Ellusionist have just provided a master lesson in marketing. Almost $60,000 revenue in a few days. 2000 products sold on the back of a 720p video with no real world footage, as well as leaving many unanswered questions. Genius!
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 05:49PM)
I wonder if you can ditch the Change gimmick using the Gonzo gimmick which itself is attached to a Raven that disappears into a topit.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jun 27, 2015 06:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
It's sold out for the second time. Sorry to all those who didn't get a chance to buy this yet.


- G [/quote]
This is a joke right? This is magic marketing at its lowest ebb. I'd rather pre order 'killer red caps' than this.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 27, 2015 06:16PM)
I really don't understand all of the hostility that is being exhibited towards this effect...


I completely disagree with everyone saying that people will use contribute the magic to a special card. When people think of Magic, this is the kind of thing they imagine (thanks to all the movies with wizards and magic and etc.) This is the kind of visual madness people would expect REAL magic to look like. I'm pumped about it still despite the various extremely negative comments that don't seem to be backed up with anything of substance.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 27, 2015 07:19PM)
Its all about who's hands it is in.

Bob Kohler a number of years back took Killer Red Caps and just for fun surprised a lot of people with it.

Honestly, I don't care about the marketing. I've seen a LOT worse than this. There's something about this that tells me I can use this, even if the angles are quite limited. There's also something I like about the lack of travel space the card needs in order to fully execute the change. That bodes well for some other things running through my mind. But until we have it in hand....

Magic-tony wrote:

"That is very true, but if you did the equivalent of the slow color change with the Svengali desk i.e. riffle the cards to show all different then immediately riffle to show them all the same, that just shouts 'clever prop'."

Yes, this is exactly the point I was making (though I may not have made it too well!). Using a tool in a very obvious way vs. using it in a subtle way. Work the tool to maximize the effect while minimizing the possible negatives (i.e., showing the Svengali Deck all the same - with apologies to Mr. Lewis :) ).
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 07:20PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:. This is the kind of visual madness people would expect REAL magic to look like. I'm pumped about it still despite the various extremely negative comments that don't seem to be backed up with anything of substance. [/quote]

Respectfully Maddy, restrictions on exposure in this forum may be the reason for lack of substance, as you put it. Let me put it this way....
Assuming that this is achieved with LP techniques(most likely), the 'visual madness' that you speak of exists only in the demo, because:

A. No way the gimmicks look anything close to natural/normal.

B. The visual madness would only be apparent to those viewing from a very particular angle. Better be prepared to hold the card frozen in the vertical, slightly backward tilted position until everyone walks away. Putting it back on the deck, or handling the card casually might cause the 'change' to reverse itself.

C. As I recall, they don't show the get ready for the headphone trick. Most likely because it involves an extremely awkward and unnatural bit of fiddling. And if you don't think that people would insist on examining the gimmick, well what can I say. Good luck with that.

Again, all this conjecture on my part, as I do not own this item. If I'm wrong, perhaps somebody who knows better will set me straight.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 27, 2015 07:33PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:

A. No way the gimmicks look anything close to natural/normal.
[/quote]

Interesting. To me, I have to say the gimmick looked very normal in the trailer. Are you thinking in a particular context? What many are curious about is whether or not it will legitimately match normal cards. Maybe yes, maybe no, but (for me) there are still lots of possibilities for use.


[quote]
B. The visual madness would only be apparent to those viewing from a very particular angle. Better be prepared to hold the card frozen in the vertical, slightly backward tilted position until everyone walks away. Putting it back on the deck, or handling the card casually might cause the 'change' to reverse itself.
[/quote]

Right, but we don't know what those angles are, to this point, nor do we know how changing angles may or may not effect a change for those viewing. Using your example above, if the card is oriented correctly after the change, putting it back on the deck in its new color would not change a thing. My thinking is along these lines (not as an effect): gimmick is on top of the deck, deck face down. Turn the deck end for end, then turn the deck over along the long edges. Top card is now a different color, and will remain so at most angles and depths. The change 'range' is very small, and at most angles the card will appear as one or the other. I could be wrong, of course, this is just how it seems to me.


[quote]
C. As I recall, they don't show the get ready for the headphone trick. Most likely because it involves an extremely awkward and unnatural bit of fiddling. And if you don't think that people would insist on examining the gimmick, well what can I say. Good luck with that.
[/quote]

There are many ways of overcoming this, are there not?

Many effects have restrictions (IET and lighting come to mind). Just depends on the payoff. We'll see after the 28th!
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 27, 2015 07:45PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:. This is the kind of visual madness people would expect REAL magic to look like. I'm pumped about it still despite the various extremely negative comments that don't seem to be backed up with anything of substance. [/quote]

Respectfully Maddy, restrictions on exposure in this forum may be the reason for lack of substance, as you put it. Let me put it this way....
Assuming that this is achieved with LP techniques(most likely), the 'visual madness' that you speak of exists only in the demo, because:

A. No way the gimmicks look anything close to natural/normal.

B. The visual madness would only be apparent to those viewing from a very particular angle. Better be prepared to hold the card frozen in the vertical, slightly backward tilted position until everyone walks away. Putting it back on the deck, or handling the card casually might cause the 'change' to reverse itself.

C. As I recall, they don't show the get ready for the headphone trick. Most likely because it involves an extremely awkward and unnatural bit of fiddling. And if you don't think that people would insist on examining the gimmick, well what can I say. Good luck with that.

Again, all this conjecture on my part, as I do not own this item. If I'm wrong, perhaps somebody who knows better will set me straight. [/quote]


Nope! The lack of substance I'm referring to are your comments clearly knocking a product which hasn't even been shipped yet.

A. There is absolutely a way the gimmicks look normal. Just as normal as they do on video. I am not at all concerned with the "normality" of the gimmicks.

B. I understand their may be restrictions with angles. I'm totally okay with that. To me the visual is worth the slight audience management which is necessary. I have complete faith that Lloyd has thought about how to clean up, I can easily think of ways that would not cause the change to 'reverse' itself. It's sad if you can't.

C. They practically show the get ready for the headphones. If you pay attention, you can see exactly how the setup would or could be achieved. In the action of going from an eye level position to a waist level position, the move could be done. What makes you think it would be awkward, unnatural and fiddly?

I'm aware people will want to examine the gimmicks just like how they want to examine almost every gimmick I own... It's the ability to give them the gimmick to examine. With a simple switch, everything can be examined which will add to the mystery.


I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting with this. I'm prepared to have the right angle and I'm prepared to switch the gimmicks. I'm excited about getting this. If it's what I think it is, great! If it isn't, great! I will find a place for it.

The only way this could be a problem is if the gimmicks are just awful and I don't expect that to be the case with Ellusionist or Lloyd.

Again, I'm still not understanding the negativity.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 07:47PM)
Thanks for the reply, Chessman.

When I was a kid I remember that sometimes you would get one of these gimmicks in a pack of baseball cards, and you could easily tell it wasn't a normal card. Granted, the workings might be better camouflaged by the intricate art on the back of a bicycle card, but I would think lighting would still be a concern.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 07:49PM)
Sounds good, Maddy-looking forward to your review.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 27, 2015 07:58PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Thanks for the reply, Chessman.

When I was a kid I remember that sometimes you would get one of these gimmicks in a pack of baseball cards, and you could easily tell it wasn't a normal card. Granted, the workings might be better camouflaged by the intricate art on the back of a bicycle card, but I would think lighting would still be a concern. [/quote]

Yes, I remember those, too. Somewhere near the beginning of the topic, tungsten lighting was mentioned. I'll look for that, again.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jun 27, 2015 08:07PM)
Just re-watched the headphone portion of the demo... Bit of tricky editing there, no?
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 27, 2015 08:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Just re-watched the headphone portion of the demo... Bit of tricky editing there, no? [/quote]

Perhaps. But you can easily see how the set up could be done.

In all honesty, that is my least favorite effect of the bunch. I can't see myself performing that one so I'm not too concerned. But who knows! I may end up loving the effect once I have the gimmick in hand.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jun 27, 2015 08:25PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
The headphone through card was only cut because I filmed the clip myself and couldn't tilt the camera.
[/quote]

Lloyd already commented on this...
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jun 28, 2015 09:42AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
It's sold out for the second time. Sorry to all those who didn't get a chance to buy this yet.
[/quote]
Ha! Figures. I'm done. Not worth it.

Doug
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jun 28, 2015 10:43PM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now. [/quote]

Monday is the 29th. ??

Like I have said before I have purchased this but I do believe E has changed their marketing ways. I could do with out the vulgarity in the emails. !@#$!%%&* Does NOT entice me to buy a product. What happened to clean reviews?
I will be reviewing this the day that I get it. Provided it ships on time.
Just my 2 cents.
Peace.
Pelican.
Message: Posted by: Amrit (Jun 29, 2015 01:46AM)
I'm just curious and this may well be a stupid question but is this something that will only ever be available (once they get more) through E? I have noticed some of their products you can only buy from them (i.e. Pyro) and althought I was very tempted to buy Change, I decided not to due to the shipping cost to the UK (it was more than the product!).

Judging by many of the comments I have read already though I think regardless of the above, I will wait until there are some reviews. It does look great but unfortunately looking great and it being something I can personally work with are two different things.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jun 29, 2015 03:00AM)
Postage was $9 amrit. There were more expensive options but the cheapest was $9. not too bad in my opinion
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 29, 2015 03:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
I really don't understand all of the hostility that is being exhibited towards this effect...
[/quote]

I don't feel the hostility is to the effect, rather it's to the chosen method of marketing.
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 29, 2015 03:51AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:

I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting with this. I'm prepared to have the right angle and I'm prepared to switch the gimmicks. [/quote]

Hope you are also prepared for your life to be changed. ;)
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 29, 2015 03:53AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
The headphone through card was only cut because I filmed the clip myself and couldn't tilt the camera.
[/quote]

Lloyd already commented on this... [/quote]

Yes, the comment was that the performer was recording it himself so needed to adjust camera angle or some-such. Surely with 999 sold ( at least) they can afford a camera man.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 29, 2015 08:59AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2015, Robmonster wrote:

I don't feel the hostility is to the effect, rather it's to the chosen method of marketing. [/quote]

Understandable. But you must admit, it clearly works.

[quote]On Jun 29, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:

I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting with this. I'm prepared to have the right angle and I'm prepared to switch the gimmicks. [/quote]

Hope you are also prepared for your life to be changed. ;) [/quote]

Thank you. My life changes every day!
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 29, 2015 09:35AM)
Well, they /say/ it works...
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jun 29, 2015 10:50AM)
Actually, realised that came off as quite dismissive, didn't mean that. I actually hope this is a nice workable effect I'm just having a bit of a laugh at the marketing technique in play here.
Message: Posted by: Amrit (Jun 29, 2015 11:10AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Postage was $9 amrit. There were more expensive options but the cheapest was $9. not too bad in my opinion [/quote]

USPS FIRST CLASS INT'L - NO TRACKING - 6-8 WEEKS - does not include brokerage or duties - $11.95

That was the cheapest shipping method for a DVD valued at $24.95. Wasn't the cost on this method that was the problem but the delivery time of 6-8 weeks. :/ After this shipping was from $46 onwards.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 29, 2015 11:14AM)
Today's the day it's supposed to ship. I'm hoping it actually does and there won't be a preorder delay which tends to happen a lot these days.
Message: Posted by: Ceierry (Jun 29, 2015 11:48AM)
Guys, just wanna say something, it says 6-8 weeks but this will never happen, you'll receive shortly, this is the shippment I use to my country, and in about 1 week or two I have my product.
Message: Posted by: professorwho (Jun 29, 2015 02:43PM)
When I have ordered with that level of posting it has taken at least 6 weeks for the parcel top get to the UK.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 29, 2015 03:48PM)
Still no shipping confirmation for me.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 29, 2015 04:34PM)
Just now received shipping notification.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 29, 2015 04:53PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Just now received shipping notification. [/quote]


Ah okay still haven't received mine
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jun 29, 2015 06:50PM)
None here either. Thanks for letting us know that you received your confirmation Chessmann.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 29, 2015 09:14PM)
Well I guess mine didn't ship! Hopefully it's just because they have so many to ship and not because of other delays.
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jun 29, 2015 09:53PM)
Got my shipping confirmation! Looking forward to trying this out.

-Altez
Message: Posted by: kinesis (Jun 30, 2015 06:39AM)
My PayPal payment went through so hopefully Mine will arrive - whenever.

I don't often post on The Café but checked this topic AFTER I had made the purchase.

I've read every post and am pretty disgusted at the attitude of the majority of people posting about a product they haven't actually received.

I often post reviews of effects I've purchased but I won't be doing that with this, I don't think I could be bothered with all the B!tching.

Seriously!!!!
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jun 30, 2015 10:07AM)
So it's OK to make complimentary comments about a product that nobody has yet received, but not less complimentary ones?
You can't have it both ways!

ALL opinions so far, both negative and positive (bar the few who have seen it) are speculative.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jun 30, 2015 12:32PM)
Just got my shipping confirmation
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 30, 2015 12:35PM)
I'm gonna cry :'( I'm still without my shipping confirmation.


This is one of the only times I get impatient haha
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jun 30, 2015 02:33PM)
Just got my shipping notification. Yahoo! :)
Message: Posted by: robd (Jun 30, 2015 03:08PM)
Keep us up to date on those shipping notifications guys; gripping stuff!
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jun 30, 2015 03:27PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2015, kinesis wrote:

I've read every post and am pretty disgusted at the attitude of the majority of people posting about a product they haven't actually received.

I often post reviews of effects I've purchased but I won't be doing that with this, I don't think I could be bothered with all the B!tching.

Seriously!!!! [/quote]

Welcome to the internet. Welcome to the response any company gets when they market something in such an over-hyped way. Welcome to magic forums, where magicians speculate on methods and effects because they like sharing ideas and opinions.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 30, 2015 03:48PM)
[quote]
Welcome to the internet...
[/quote]

...where class and courtesy are too often 2nd class citizens.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jun 30, 2015 03:55PM)
Edit -
Message: Posted by: Ceierry (Jul 1, 2015 02:07AM)
Still not got the shippment notification lol xD
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 12:38PM)
Ok, it arrived.

Now, bear in mind that I have not watched the online instructions, yet. I have only looked at these in a variety of lighting conditions.

My pre-instructional-watching verdict?

These. Are. Horrendous.

A few points:

- I guessed that there would be only 1 area, or window, of change, and that any further movement in the same direction would cause no further change. I was wrong - if you keep moving the card, the change appears over and over again.

- I checked to see how angles were. Whether you are straight on or looking from a side angle, you can see the changes, no problem.

- Light reflection on the cards in various conditions will need to be managed with great (!) care. It will be very easy to give the game away.

- There is no way on god's green earth I will perform the effects using the cards for the color-changing card, the ear bud cord or the transposing angels. The changes are incredibly sensitive to movement, and you simply cannot see with the spectator's eyes.

- I might actually get some use out of the coin gimmick.

Again, I assumed that only one instance of change was possible when you moved the card one way, and only one instance of change would be possible when the card is moved the other way. Such is not the case, and really throws a wrench into many of the plans I had for this.

Upon first looking at the cards I LOL'd and said, "Holy crap!"

Well, that's my pre-instructional tutorial opinion. I will now watch the online tutorial, and hope to have my thinking changed. If it is, I will be the first to eat crow.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 1, 2015 12:48PM)
Hold on, what? You mean to say it hasn't 'changed the face of magic' for you?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 12:50PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, robd wrote:
Hold on, what? You mean to say it hasn't 'changed the face of magic' for you? [/quote]

Oh, its changed... :)
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 1, 2015 01:01PM)
In all fairness, I would at least watch the tutorial before posting impressions, right?
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 1, 2015 01:14PM)
:pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop: :pop:
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 1, 2015 01:35PM)
Ca plane pour moi
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 01:42PM)
Post-instructional thoughts:

There are no live performance videos. Hope to see some soon. Vid had some significant focus problems from time to time. None of the cards can be handed for examination (not a negative point, as I didn't expect them to be).

Blurred - could be ok, I suppose, but my card has blotches that appear near the edges of the card, all around when oriented in one way in a lighted environment. In the instructional video you can see the odd light reflection that comes off the card from time to time.

Coin Change - these come on a blank playing card, which you must cut out with scissors. Would have been better if they had been professionally cut. Maybe there's an argument against this. You get a copper/silver gaff and a heads/tails gaff. Big problem is that it is tough to represent a 3D object with a 2D object. Distance will help. Gimmick is used in combination with a real coin.

Headphone Penetration - couldn't see this one working at all. Watched the instructional vid. Went to a mirror and found the proper angle for a spec, but found it wasn't as clear as it would have been in a darker room because of all the glare coming off of the card (!). Feel that specs must ALL be viewing from the exact same height - in other words, you can't have one person sitting and the other person standing. That simply will not work.

Jumping Angels - well, I didn't expect this. In my comments above, I said that I didn't care for the Jumping Angels because the changes were so sensitive to movement. Well, the routine that is taught involves you openly showing the angel moving from back and forth from circle to circle as you do the necessary with the card. IOW, you must do what gives the method away in order to make the method work. Do your favorite switch and hand out a regular card. Daniel Madison assists with some routining ideas. No, thank you.

Red to Blue - the color-changing card. Daniel Madison assists. The effect: spec selects and signs a card. Card is turned over and openly shown to change color, back and forth, red to blue to red as you do what is necessary to effect the change. This is done rather quickly. Card is turned over onto the deck and then handed out for examination. Once again, you must do what (imho) gives the method away in order to make the method work. Quote from the instructions: "You don't have any angle issues." Well, doing it that way, that is certainly true. No, thank you.

Once again, you need to be very sensitive to how light hits the cards.

Pants.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 01:44PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
In all fairness, I would at least watch the tutorial before posting impressions, right? [/quote]

Many times, this would apply, and I certainly see your point of view, in general. Here, in this specific case, I didn't feel that way.
Message: Posted by: cardbiker (Jul 1, 2015 01:49PM)
Thanks for the honest review Chessman
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 01:55PM)
I believe this may have the worst expectation to reality quotient of any magical effect I have ever purchased. Even when expectations are not met, I will try to 'find another way'. I simply don't feel even that much effort is warranted with this release.

Most of the time, you want to try an effect out on someone because it may play better to the spec than you think it will. I honestly don't even see going that far. If the changes had been limited to once each way, there might have been some real hope for 2 or 3 of the effects (for me), but such is not the case.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 02:08PM)
"...a principal so advanced it looks like" it came out of a box of Crackerjack.

Once again, here is some of the emailed ad copy:


#ChangeMagicForever

It's been called "The last color change you'll ever need", but it's a concept that applies to WAY more than just that.

We've kept this a secret for long enough, and we've got a ridiculous surprise for all of you. Well 5 surprises to be exact.

It's a new concept that could help CHANGE magic forever. Can you guess what it is?

We've been slaving away for the last year to bring you an exclusive new release that made Brad Christian say this "HOLY ^&*)....WOW!"

Brad has seen, learnt or perfected every magic trick that's crossed his path in the last 15 years of Ellusionist. He saw it, and flew the artist 5,000 miles from the UK to San Francisco before he'd managed to get his jaw back up from the floor.

The hype train has arrived, next stop...The impossible. You need to get your ticket. Only 999 available. That's it. We're not lying.


AND...


CHANGE Volume 1 is five visual miracles that will change your life.

Lloyd Barnes (creator of Diffuse, Icon, Glimmer, Light Switch & more) has harnessed a principle so advanced, it allows you to perform what people will swear is REAL MAGIC.

A no-sleights, no-cover concept that will destroy the limitations of what's possible in magic.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 1, 2015 02:09PM)
I'm sure the other 998 will be very happy with their purchase. :sun:
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 02:16PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, pegasus wrote:
I'm sure the other 998 will be very happy with their purchase. :sun: [/quote]

Ah, but remember, there were 2 runs of these :)
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 1, 2015 02:22PM)
Send the package back to E for a full refund inc postage.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 02:30PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, pegasus wrote:
Send the package back to E for a full refund inc postage. [/quote]

I will, though I admit I hesitated at the thought of them turning around and selling them to someone else!
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 1, 2015 02:31PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, pegasus wrote:
Send the package back to E for a full refund inc postage. [/quote]


Not according to E-

http://www.ellusionist.com/return-policy

If I'm not happy I will take it up with PayPal.

I have a feeling I will be doing that.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 1, 2015 02:37PM)
Sorry to hear about that, Chessmann. Meant to ask, what were you talking about when you mentioned tungsten lighting before? Is that the only condition that this looks good in? Or were you being good-naturedly sarcastic?
Message: Posted by: Lou Cirulli (Jul 1, 2015 02:37PM)
Once again.......NEVER....PREORDERING...AGAIN!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 02:38PM)
No refunds "...unless approved by Ellusionist..."

Edit: I sent E this email about 10 minutes ago:

***

Hello ~

I just received "Change" by Lloyd Barnes and watched the instructional video.

I am returning the god-awful set to you for a full refund, including postage. This is the most shameful example of effect & hype I can remember running across.

You will find my order information below.

***

I just received an email approving the refund.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 02:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Sorry to hear about that, Chessmann. Meant to ask, what were you talking about when you mentioned tungsten lighting before? Is that the only condition that this looks good in? Or were you being good-naturedly sarcastic? [/quote]

Ah, well. I had hopes, and thought for once it might be fun to jump on hype machine :)

The tungsten reference is on page 2. Geraint mentions it.

"I'll leave that one for Lloyd to answer. I think it's tungston light that's the one to avoid. Other lighting should be perfect (indoors and out)"
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 1, 2015 02:54PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:

These are 100% real world practical. We have live performances videos coming over the next coming weeks. We held back because the main video speaks for itself and this is what your audience will and does see. These can be performed from a multitude of practical angles and everything is explained from myself and Daniel Madison in the explanation videos in great detail.

Quite simply; [b]My creation would not be on the market if I did not perform it for real people and get incredible reactions[/b] For me, to release magic which is impractical is totally pointless. I leave that sort of business to other companies. [/quote]

I'll just leave this here...
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 1, 2015 02:55PM)
Well that's nice that they're willing to give a refund, a lot of places wouldn't.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 1, 2015 02:58PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Bill08 wrote:
Well that's nice that they're willing to give a refund, a lot of places wouldn't. [/quote]

If they didn't with all the hype they generated I believe a lot of people would simply not look at their next release. Though it seems they sold close to 2000 of these!! I wonder how others feel. I guess we will see but it's definitely not off to a good start for Lloyd and the team.

RNK
Message: Posted by: Low Key (Jul 1, 2015 03:07PM)
In the UK at least they don't have a choice:

Your right to cancel Your right to cancel an order for goods starts the moment you place your order and ends 14 days from the day you receive your goods.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

I don't know how it works in the USA, but here at least you can send it back if you don't want it
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 1, 2015 03:14PM)
I've often seen stores with statements like "You are buying the secret. No returns on magic items"
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 1, 2015 03:14PM)
I somehow don't think they'll issue refunds worth $60k. I purchased this for a static camera piece so I may get some use out of it. However; as it was said its workable; it'd be good to hear how you do this with people who are different heights and not looking straight on.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 1, 2015 03:19PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Bill08 wrote:
I've often seen stores with statements like "You are buying the secret. No returns on magic items" [/quote]

As it says on E's Return Policy.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 1, 2015 03:29PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
No refunds "...unless approved by Ellusionist..."

Edit: I sent E this email about 10 minutes ago:

***

Hello ~

I just received "Change" by Lloyd Barnes and watched the instructional video.

I am returning the god-awful set to you for a full refund, including postage. This is the most shameful example of effect & hype I can remember running across.

You will find my order information below.

***

I just received an email approving the refund. [/quote]

If that's true that's promising to hear, but I'll still hold out hope until my gimmicks arive. I mean, if it really is that bad, then the marketing is laughable. Surprising since Lloyd has a very good track record and he thinks its his best creation to date. Time will tell..
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 03:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
If that's true that's promising to hear, but I'll still hold out hope until my gimmicks arive. I mean, if it really is that bad, then the marketing is laughable. Surprising since Lloyd has a very good track record and he thinks its his best creation to date. Time will tell.. [/quote]

Who knows - maybe you'll find some uses for them.

I admit, I was quite surprised at E's willingness to accept a return for refund. Then I realized that I shouldn't have been surprised, at all.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 1, 2015 03:39PM)
In fairness I've heard some good things about this from people with nothing to gain from this so I'm reserving judgment until mine arrives. Perhaps we should all do the same before we sharpen pitch forks. Not that I'm suggesting your review is wrong or anything chessman.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 1, 2015 03:44PM)
I am disappointed. Chessmann ranks very high in credibility, and I don't doubt it a bit. 2000 units or thereabouts...and I wonder how many will be sent right back? Watch the Café "For Sale" section. What's the price on this again? $34.95, and I'd be furious...$50 or MORE??? Ballistic! To the MOON!

Doug
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 1, 2015 03:46PM)
But, that said, maybe this will be a collectible. Stranger things have happened.

Doug (again)
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 03:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
In fairness I've heard some good things about this from people with nothing to gain from this so I'm reserving judgment until mine arrives. Perhaps we should all do the same before we sharpen pitch forks. Not that I'm suggesting your review is wrong or anything chessman. [/quote]

Yes, there were some kind words at the beginning of this topic. These were my own thoughts. One man's meat is another man's poison, as is said. If others find more usefulness than I did in this release, more power to them.

BTW, I think some were curious as to the thickness of the gimmicks. Each is about as thick as 2 playing cards. They are very flexible and sturdy. You won't worry about breaking them unless whatever holds the gaff to the card fails.
Message: Posted by: TheAmazingSteveo (Jul 1, 2015 04:13PM)
I just received mine today. First Impression ... I like this ALOT!!! .. I will have to practice the angles
but I have a routine that will kill with this (specifically the color changing card from Red to Blue).
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 04:18PM)
:) Well, there ya go! Haha. Glad someone will get something out of it!
Message: Posted by: Kabbalah (Jul 1, 2015 04:27PM)
Lloyd Barnes?

No!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 04:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Dougini wrote:
What's the price on this again? $34.95, and I'd be furious...$50 or MORE??? Ballistic! To the MOON!

Doug [/quote]

Doug, thank you. The price was $29.99 + shipping. I had great hopes for this, but one thing that did concern me a little was the low price point for something that promised so much. There are certain conditions where the cards will look absolutely normal. However, there were, for me, too many sabotage points re: lighting and angle. The color changing card can look fine in one room - I moved to another, holding the card at the same angle and distance from my face, and the reflection of light caused a terrible distortion. Other times the cards will take on an unusual looking sheen.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 1, 2015 04:45PM)
One of the tests I did was taking the CC card and laying it on a table.

- I stepped straight back 3 feet. The card was red.

- I stepped 3 feet to the left of the card. It developed a very marked sheen/distortion.

- I stepped 3 feet to the right of the card. It became difficult to discern if the card was red or blue.

- I stepped back directly in front of the card, then stepped back about 3 feet. The card was blue. Might work for dual reality, though.

The transposing angels I worked with, setting the card on a surface. *Slowly* moving away from the card caused a lovely, slow change...but at one point the lighting just gave the game away. Ok, move to a different location, the lighting is fixed. But remember, since the change on this card is so trigger happy, you must not only adjust for the person's distance from the card, but also their height (!) in order to make sure they don't see half angels on both. 6 inches up or down or forward or backward makes a big difference.

With the ear bud card I tried something similar. I set it on a surface about 4 feet tall, and stood as in front of it, making sure the faux wire looked its sharpest. I stepped back about 3 feet, and the wire had mostly vanished. It *can* work - but there are distance/depth/multiple spectator issues, and then there are also lighting/reflection concerns. Its just not for me.

These things, with the additional concerns of how varying light conditions may vary things even more, and on all of the cards, made me decide to pass.
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jul 1, 2015 06:17PM)
This is one of the reasons I hardly buy new tricks these days. All Ellusionist had to do was mention in their ad copy 'there are some angle / lighting restrictions'. But they didn't. Why not? Because if they did, they would probably have sold fewer units.

I'm sure that is also the reason they didn't include live performances in the trailer.

By just showing a few studio shots, filmed at carefully calculated camera angles, they know they will maximise sales, but they do this at the expense of magicians who are unaware of such issues. Magicians see the trailer and in their minds they see themselves performing the trick in whatever environment they normally perform in. But the trick turns up and lo and behold, they can't perform it because of some kind of limitation inherent the in method. If only it was mentioned in the ad copy!

Wouldn't it be useful if in all magic trick ads they included some simple and HONEST information about such things:

Performance angle restrictions
Lighting restrictions
Noise restritions
Minimum viewing distance

Just these 4 points alone would be very useful.

So with this trick, some people will find a use for it, but as Chessmann found out, for him it doesn't work. I'm sure he wouldn't have bought it had this information been forthcoming. I wonder if all 2000 odd would have sold so fast had Ellusionist had the decency to include the above info in their ad.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 1, 2015 06:55PM)
I like Ellusionist's Red Gaff and Blue Gaff Decks. I like their Ghost Deck & matching Gaff Deck. I like Brad Christianson. They have to hype stuff. I understand. It's how ya make money. I just ignore most of it. They got me with "Fraud", "KAOS" and "Sinful" and I will never regret those purchases!

I don't hate them at all. I just do thorough research before buying most things like this.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 1, 2015 07:37PM)
Conventional wisdom suggests that Magicians would be the hardest to fool. From what I can see, that's hardly the case. I think it's because those of us who are attracted to this particular endeavor are prone to fanciful senses of wonder, and are much more susceptible to the Grand Marketer's Pitch.

As I've said before, we as a community need to be a bit(not too much!) more cynical,and learn to think critically before throwing money at the Latest and Greatest.

All the crybabies that complain about 'excessive negativity' and those that demand an ignore button(GONZO thread) are not helping the community at all. They are part of the problem. Silencing dissent is never a good idea. If your actions and opinions can't stand up to criticism and counterpoint, perhaps they aren't that worthy of consideration in the first place. Just my lenticularly printed 2¢.
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 1, 2015 07:57PM)
I hope they are ready to make 1,998 refunds.. ;)
Message: Posted by: Robert M (Jul 1, 2015 09:14PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Conventional wisdom suggests that Magicians would be the hardest to fool. From what I can see, that's hardly the case. I think it's because those of us who are attracted to this particular endeavor are prone to fanciful senses of wonder, and are much more susceptible to the Grand Marketer's Pitch. [/quote]

Truer words were never spoken. I've said it before... magicians are the most gullible people in the world - myself included sometimes.

Robert
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 1, 2015 09:53PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
6 inches up or down or forward or backward makes a big difference.[/quote]

Exactly as I suspected. Hence my cynicism concerning the wording of the hype and my scorn for the attempts of some of this thread's contributors to stop people from trying to discuss the method's potential, or lack thereof. To imagine that an effect so over-hyped might end up in the preverbial junk drawer? How dare we.. (be so sensible)!
Message: Posted by: Merenkov (Jul 1, 2015 09:55PM)
This thread should receive a sticky. It’s got everything: the over-hyped product; the perfectly filmed video trailer; the dreamy, defensive early adopters; the quick “sell-out”; the immediate second batch of product (to ease the pain of those who missed out on the first batch); the slight delays; and the inevitable, crushing disappointment. It’s perfect, lol…
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 1, 2015 10:13PM)
I don't see it as being gullible. I see it as being lied to. There's a difference.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 1, 2015 10:22PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Merenkov wrote:
This thread should receive a sticky. It’s got everything: the over-hyped product; the perfectly filmed video trailer; the dreamy, defensive early adopters; the quick “sell-out”; the immediate second batch of product (to ease the pain of those who missed out on the first batch); the slight delays; and the inevitable, crushing disappointment. It’s perfect, lol… [/quote]
Love this!

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 1, 2015 10:43PM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:. This is the kind of visual madness people would expect REAL magic to look like. I'm pumped about it still despite the various extremely negative comments that don't seem to be backed up with anything of substance. [/quote]

Respectfully Maddy, restrictions on exposure in this forum may be the reason for lack of substance, as you put it. Let me put it this way....
Assuming that this is achieved with LP techniques(most likely), the 'visual madness' that you speak of exists only in the demo, because:

A. No way the gimmicks look anything close to natural/normal.

B. The visual madness would only be apparent to those viewing from a very particular angle. Better be prepared to hold the card frozen in the vertical, slightly backward tilted position until everyone walks away. Putting it back on the deck, or handling the card casually might cause the 'change' to reverse itself.

C. As I recall, they don't show the get ready for the headphone trick. Most likely because it involves an extremely awkward and unnatural bit of fiddling. And if you don't think that people would insist on examining the gimmick, well what can I say. Good luck with that.

Again, all this conjecture on my part, as I do not own this item. If I'm wrong, perhaps somebody who knows better will set me straight. [/quote]


Nope! The lack of substance I'm referring to are your comments clearly knocking a product which hasn't even been shipped yet.

A. There is absolutely a way the gimmicks look normal. Just as normal as they do on video. I am not at all concerned with the "normality" of the gimmicks.

B. I understand their may be restrictions with angles. I'm totally okay with that. To me the visual is worth the slight audience management which is necessary. I have complete faith that Lloyd has thought about how to clean up, I can easily think of ways that would not cause the change to 'reverse' itself. It's sad if you can't.

C. They practically show the get ready for the headphones. If you pay attention, you can see exactly how the setup would or could be achieved. In the action of going from an eye level position to a waist level position, the move could be done. What makes you think it would be awkward, unnatural and fiddly?

I'm aware people will want to examine the gimmicks just like how they want to examine almost every gimmick I own... It's the ability to give them the gimmick to examine. With a simple switch, everything can be examined which will add to the mystery.


I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting with this. I'm prepared to have the right angle and I'm prepared to switch the gimmicks. I'm excited about getting this. If it's what I think it is, great! If it isn't, great! I will find a place for it.

The only way this could be a problem is if the gimmicks are just awful and I don't expect that to be the case with Ellusionist or Lloyd.

Again, I'm still not understanding the negativity. [/quote]

Care to weigh in on this again Maddy?
Message: Posted by: taller8 (Jul 1, 2015 11:26PM)
I'll wait for a few more opinions.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 2, 2015 05:06AM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Merenkov wrote:
This thread should receive a sticky. It’s got everything: the over-hyped product; the perfectly filmed video trailer; the dreamy, defensive early adopters; the quick “sell-out”; the immediate second batch of product (to ease the pain of those who missed out on the first batch); the slight delays; and the inevitable, crushing disappointment. It’s perfect, lol… [/quote]

Best post on the thread, right here.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 2, 2015 07:45AM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:. This is the kind of visual madness people would expect REAL magic to look like. I'm pumped about it still despite the various extremely negative comments that don't seem to be backed up with anything of substance. [/quote]

Respectfully Maddy, restrictions on exposure in this forum may be the reason for lack of substance, as you put it. Let me put it this way....
Assuming that this is achieved with LP techniques(most likely), the 'visual madness' that you speak of exists only in the demo, because:

A. No way the gimmicks look anything close to natural/normal.

B. The visual madness would only be apparent to those viewing from a very particular angle. Better be prepared to hold the card frozen in the vertical, slightly backward tilted position until everyone walks away. Putting it back on the deck, or handling the card casually might cause the 'change' to reverse itself.

C. As I recall, they don't show the get ready for the headphone trick. Most likely because it involves an extremely awkward and unnatural bit of fiddling. And if you don't think that people would insist on examining the gimmick, well what can I say. Good luck with that.

Again, all this conjecture on my part, as I do not own this item. If I'm wrong, perhaps somebody who knows better will set me straight. [/quote]


Nope! The lack of substance I'm referring to are your comments clearly knocking a product which hasn't even been shipped yet.

A. There is absolutely a way the gimmicks look normal. Just as normal as they do on video. I am not at all concerned with the "normality" of the gimmicks.

B. I understand their may be restrictions with angles. I'm totally okay with that. To me the visual is worth the slight audience management which is necessary. I have complete faith that Lloyd has thought about how to clean up, I can easily think of ways that would not cause the change to 'reverse' itself. It's sad if you can't.

C. They practically show the get ready for the headphones. If you pay attention, you can see exactly how the setup would or could be achieved. In the action of going from an eye level position to a waist level position, the move could be done. What makes you think it would be awkward, unnatural and fiddly?

I'm aware people will want to examine the gimmicks just like how they want to examine almost every gimmick I own... It's the ability to give them the gimmick to examine. With a simple switch, everything can be examined which will add to the mystery.


I'm pretty sure I know what I'm getting with this. I'm prepared to have the right angle and I'm prepared to switch the gimmicks. I'm excited about getting this. If it's what I think it is, great! If it isn't, great! I will find a place for it.

The only way this could be a problem is if the gimmicks are just awful and I don't expect that to be the case with Ellusionist or Lloyd.

Again, I'm still not understanding the negativity. [/quote]

Care to weigh in on this again Maddy? [/quote]

Of course I'll weigh in again once I receive the product. My estimated arrival date is Monday.
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 2, 2015 08:10AM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:

Care to weigh in on this again Maddy? [/quote]

What exactly are you hoping for? I doubt Maddy has even received her copy yet.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 2, 2015 08:12AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:

Care to weigh in on this again Maddy? [/quote]

What exactly are you hoping for? I doubt Maddy has even received her copy yet. [/quote]

*clears throat* HIS *Cough Cough*
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 2, 2015 08:18AM)
Sorry! I know a few Maddy's, all female.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 2, 2015 08:58AM)
My dad's name was Courtney.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 2, 2015 09:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:

Care to weigh in on this again Maddy? [/quote]

What exactly are you hoping for? I doubt Maddy has even received her copy yet. [/quote]

Eh- I actually regret posting that. I was rereading the thread, and felt that Maddy's reply to my original post(which,according to Mr. Chessmann, was spot on) was a bit petulant. Having just got back from a business function with a few drinks in me, I thought it would be fun to break b&*@s a little.

Apologies, sir- though I stand behind my original posts.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 2, 2015 10:00PM)
I received an email the other day from Ellusionist telling me the effect was sold out. I was hoping I was going to get my money back because of the negative reaction here.

However, today I received another email from Ellusionist informing the package has been shipped.

When I purchased Change I did so with the same mindset used when purchasing stocks: Don't buy them unless you are willing to lose the entire investment.

Let's hope it is better than I think it is.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jul 2, 2015 10:15PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Dougini wrote:
They got me with "Fraud", "KAOS" and "Sinful" and I will never regret those purchases!

I don't hate them at all. I just do thorough research before buying most things like this.

Doug [/quote]

While heavily marketed through the site Sinful isn't an Ellusionist product.

Also I would like to thank Ellusionist for entertaining me with the hype for the past two weeks. But its not like it there new thing. They've always done it. Even going as far as boasting they didn't creatively edit the Greek Switch trailer. As they have creatively edited trailers for some of their past products.
Message: Posted by: taller8 (Jul 2, 2015 10:20PM)
I don't care about hype, but I do care about an honest promo video, since that is what I base my purchasing desicion on.

I guess I'll just have to stick with more reputable dealers and creators, but it seems that list is getting smaller and smaller.
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Jul 2, 2015 11:40PM)
Unless the gimmicks don't work as advertised, I don't really see what is deceptive or misleading about the promo video? Sure there are no live performances shown in the promo but there are tons of effects out there that don't show that. The effects themselves are shown as plainly as possible with only one cut. Am I missing something?

Are there live performances on the instructional DVD?
Message: Posted by: Slackerking (Jul 3, 2015 12:34AM)
As usual, so much whining. As with all the other "evil empire" companies, I've rarely been burned by Ellusionist products even with their fancy modern trailers and extravagant advertising prose that confuses people so easily around here. No wait, I've never been burned by them or by Lloyd Barnes whose work is always clever and rarely less than interesting. At $6 a gimmick it's worth the gamble to me. Unless they're just terribly made (highly unlikely from Ellusionist), it's quite obvious what they are. Maybe the tech won't be functional in the real world, worth it to me to find out.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 3, 2015 02:03AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2015, scott0819 wrote:
Unless the gimmicks don't work as advertised, I don't really see what is deceptive or misleading about the promo video? Sure there are no live performances shown in the promo but there are tons of effects out there that don't show that. The effects themselves are shown as plainly as possible with only one cut. Am I missing something?

Are there live performances on the instructional DVD? [/quote]

There are no live performances on the instructional tutorial.

Let me address a couple of issues re: "unless the gimmicks don't work as advertised". Yes, they *accomplish* the things you see in the video. However:

There are very serious lighting/reflection/angle/spectator height considerations (if you haven't read some of the tests I did with the cards, please do).

Let's use the transposing angels as one example. The images are so very sensitive to change that it would be incredibly difficult to find a "starting position" for the effect. Do you want to have the spectator (as in the trailer) first see 1 circle with an angel and the other circle without on angel, and then have that angel move to the other circle? This would be extremely difficult to control, not just because angles must be perfect, but also because angle adjustment will be different with each individual based on spectator height, and you must know that angle for each person (and accounting for angles is MUCH different with this set of effects than with most effects, as we know them)....let alone trying to perform when some are sitting and some are standing. The spec is just as likely to see "half angels" in each circle. This is likely why the effect is taught in the instructional video with no starting point and no ending point as we see in the trailer - it is virtually impossible to have them, even for a single spectator. Lloyd simply produces the card and does the necessary a few times, showing the angels moving back and forth (which, to me, gives away the game) and then puts the card in the deck. Virtually the same thing happens with the Color Changing Card, and for similar reasons (see the tests I did of it and other cards, above). I remember as I watched the video instruction, thinking, "Is this really the best Ellusionist has come up with re: effects for the angels and cc card? Just do the necessary with the card, showing a back-and-forth change, and then sw***h the card?" But it makes sense.

So, you cannot really do this effect as it is on the trailer (on video, YES!).

I looked at the Color Changing Card in a room with multiple lights, holding the card the same distance and angle from my face, and got the angle where I wanted it. I moved a few feet and the card took on a blackish appearance (see further tests, above on this page). Also (moving to 'better' light), only a very small movement caused the card to change from blue to red. For this reason, it is very difficult to have any certainty that a) the spec will be seeing fully blue or fully red at any time; they may see it half blue and half red. This is why, again, that the effect taught for this on the instructional tutorial is simply to make the card change back and forth a few times and then sw***h it out....

Now, I feel that I *can* produce the cc card, hold it 1 foot from someone's face and get it at the correct angle for them to see a single color, and then have it change fully to another color. This is doable. However, it can become very problematic with more distance. I just tried doing the above, holding the cards as far out away from me as I could (about 3 feet), and in 3 different rooms. It was difficult to get a complete transition from blue to red. It was more blue to blue with somewhat of a reddish tint. I tried various angles from the lighting, and did get a decent change, but also had light and reflection difficulties. You can't overstep your action with the card, either, or you'll give the game away.

I can be in the same room with the same lighting and see the card as normal, as reflecting light oddly, and as a Crackerjack toy. Management is very problematic, and involves multiple factors. Managing light/reflection with IET is SIMPLE compared to this set, IMHO.

Angle considerations and spectator positioning are nothing new to magic, but to me, this set takes them to an entirely new level. Then you add the lighting considerations.

So, can the cards do the effects as shown in the trailer? Yes, they can. Can the cards appear normal? Yes, they can. Would I rely on these cards to do these same effects as in the trailer, and look appropriate while doing so? Sometimes meh, sometimes no, sometimes not just no but HECK no. There are so many variables and sabotage points.

I sound like I ordered Forrest Gump's box of chocolates.
Message: Posted by: Ray Chelt (Jul 3, 2015 02:17AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2015, Robert M wrote:
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Conventional wisdom suggests that Magicians would be the hardest to fool. From what I can see, that's hardly the case. I think it's because those of us who are attracted to this particular endeavor are prone to fanciful senses of wonder, and are much more susceptible to the Grand Marketer's Pitch. [/quote]

Truer words were never spoken. I've said it before... magicians are the most gullible people in the world - myself included sometimes.

Robert [/quote]

The thing is that I'm not sure whether it's gullibility or wishful thinking.

Even when an item first gets mentioned on these forums some of the questions asked make me wonder whether people are looking for real magic.

In fact I tend to know or have a good idea how a trick is done before I buy it. If you go into these things blind and hopeful you're going to get burned.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 3, 2015 02:43AM)
This sounded a bit muddled, so I'll re-word it.


"So, can the cards accomplish the things shown in the trailer? Yes, they can. Would I rely on these cards to do these same effects as in the trailer, live and in-person? Sometimes meh, sometimes no, sometimes not just no but HECK no. There are so many variables and sabotage points."
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Jul 3, 2015 08:07AM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:

These are 100% real world practical. We have live performances videos coming over the next coming weeks. We held back because the main video speaks for itself and this is what your audience will and does see. These can be performed from a multitude of practical angles and everything is explained from myself and Daniel Madison in the explanation videos in great detail.

Quite simply; [b]My creation would not be on the market if I did not perform it for real people and get incredible reactions[/b] For me, to release magic which is impractical is totally pointless. I leave that sort of business to other companies. [/quote]

If there is some doubt circling about the practicality of these effects, now's the time to release those live performance videos.
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jul 3, 2015 08:10AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, scott0819 wrote:

If there is some doubt circling about the practicality of these effects, now's the time to release those live performance videos. [/quote]

Agreed - I love the way the video looks, but I am worried about angles and such just like the others, so I am waiting for a real world demo and/or real world testimonials from someone other than the creator/seller
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 3, 2015 08:24AM)
Wouldn't it have been great to ahve those real life videos before the clamour to buy over 1000 copies of this. For us, not for them, obviously.
Message: Posted by: simon hughes (Jul 3, 2015 08:32AM)
Surely you all know how it works by now? It can't be performed for more than one person standing stationary.
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jul 3, 2015 09:34AM)
If you think about it, dealers will produce promo videos designed to best sell the effect. So, if they release a single angle, direct to camera demo, with no live performances, you can generally assume the trick looks best that way, or even that lay people don't find it that impressive. Let's face it, a lot of hyped-up trick are more exciting for magicians than for audiences (not that there's anything wrong with that, since nobody loves magic trick more than us magicians).

Ellusionist are clever in that by doing this pre-order malarky (which they seem to be very good at), everyone had bought it without even seeing the trick or reading any reviews. Result: circa 2000 units sold. Had they released real world perfomances and released it without the pre-order stage, they probably would have sold more like 200, since people would soon become aware of these pesky performance/viewing angle restrictions and any other limitations.

I personally think dealers like Ellusionist who do not clearly state such limitations in their ad copy are dishonest and lack morals. I honestly don't know why magicians put up with such deceptive marketing.

Based on Chessman's comments, what would an honest ad have read like? "Here's a cool new gimmicked card which changes colour etc. It's facinating to play with. Do bear in mind there are some viewing angle restrictions meaning it is best performed in [whatever they are] lighting conditiions and directly to a single, or at most, several spectators directly in front of you".

Instead you get "The most amazing color chaging card in the world. You'll never need another. Will change the face of magic bla bla bla." All the important bits coincidently missing from the description.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 3, 2015 09:39AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, simon hughes wrote:
Surely you all know how it works by now? It can't be performed for more than one person standing stationary. [/quote]

There are 5 effects, and not all of them are quite so restrictive. The blurred king effect and the coins are a bit better. Angle of presentation must be fairly precise using the coins, as you must have a clear start and end point for this effect (well, you don't *have* to...), and you must be careful not to over-do the move. The blurred king can be ok, but lighting and reflection must be carefully accounted for.

I set the king on a table about 3.5' high, standing on its short edge, face toward me. I stepped back so that the image was sharp. Then I bent my knees until my eyes were level with the card. Here, the card was completely blurry. So your audience must be on about the same eye-level if you want to start by showing the card all sharp or all blurry. If your desire is to simply a repeated back and forth change where it doesn't matter if their first view of the card is sharp or blurry, it doesn't matter how your audience is situated.

With a couple of these cards, you might be able to do an interesting dual reality. Problem is, depending on the light, you don't want people looking at these cards very long.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 3, 2015 12:29PM)
Mine came in today. A little earlier than expected.

What can I say?... I love it! :)

It is exactly what I was expecting. I will definitely use the color changing card (Already tried it out on my sister and it got one of the best reactions I've gotten from a card trick from her.) The angle really isn't that hard to understand. You simply hold the card at their eye level. Lloyd has a rather simple way to get into the correct position.

I will never do the headphone one. It isn't done at eye level which means its a little harder to figure out the angle. But the chord doesn't fully vanish for me. The sweet spot is very small with this one.

I like the coin and will be using it in a show I have tonight. I will use it as part of my misers dream. Silver coins keep appearing and then the last one turns into a penny. Now all of the coins in the bucket form into one huge penny. I have a feeling it will go down great.

The angel jumping is decent. I don't know that I'll use it, but again, I feel it could work well if done the way Lloyd describes.

I will definitely use the blurred card as well as part of a pseudo hypnotism piece.


I really like the set and don't understand the disappointment. It should work great for a small group of people directly in front of you, but it is DEFINITELY useful to one on one performances.




I'll try to come back after I perform them a bit to inform you of lay peoples reactions.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 3, 2015 01:09PM)
Ladies and gentleman, welcome the newest addition to your junk drawer. So bad it should have been a Sans Mind release.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 3, 2015 01:17PM)
Maddy, hahaha! :)

Glad to hear you'll get some use out of it, at least! At least we have some agreement on which of the lot is most workable.

We've had love it and hate it. Wonder how many "its ok" we'll see :)

Mine is now back in the mail to Ellusionist.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Li (Jul 3, 2015 02:22PM)
Just received my set as well! Very happy to say I'm pleased with the quality of the gimmmicks! Watching the instructions soon and will post a small review after that. So excited to use this :)
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 3, 2015 02:42PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, Kevin Li wrote:
Just received my set as well! Very happy to say I'm pleased with the quality of the gimmmicks! Watching the instructions soon and will post a small review after that. So excited to use this :) [/quote]

I'm not sure the quality of the product is in question but more the ability of the product to function as a magic effect. Not too good so far.
Message: Posted by: RiBo (Jul 3, 2015 03:04PM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Post-instructional thoughts:

There are no live performance videos. Hope to see some soon. Vid had some significant focus problems from time to time. None of the cards can be handed for examination (not a negative point, as I didn't expect them to be).

Blurred - could be ok, I suppose, but my card has blotches that appear near the edges of the card, all around when oriented in one way in a lighted environment. In the instructional video you can see the odd light reflection that comes off the card from time to time.

Coin Change - these come on a blank playing card, which you must cut out with scissors. Would have been better if they had been professionally cut. Maybe there's an argument against this. You get a copper/silver gaff and a heads/tails gaff. Big problem is that it is tough to represent a 3D object with a 2D object. Distance will help. Gimmick is used in combination with a real coin.

Headphone Penetration - couldn't see this one working at all. Watched the instructional vid. Went to a mirror and found the proper angle for a spec, but found it wasn't as clear as it would have been in a darker room because of all the glare coming off of the card (!). Feel that specs must ALL be viewing from the exact same height - in other words, you can't have one person sitting and the other person standing. That simply will not work.

Jumping Angels - well, I didn't expect this. In my comments above, I said that I didn't care for the Jumping Angels because the changes were so sensitive to movement. Well, the routine that is taught involves you openly showing the angel moving from back and forth from circle to circle as you do the necessary with the card. IOW, you must do what gives the method away in order to make the method work. Do your favorite switch and hand out a regular card. Daniel Madison assists with some routining ideas. No, thank you.

Red to Blue - the color-changing card. Daniel Madison assists. The effect: spec selects and signs a card. Card is turned over and openly shown to change color, back and forth, red to blue to red as you do what is necessary to effect the change. This is done rather quickly. Card is turned over onto the deck and then handed out for examination. Once again, you must do what (imho) gives the method away in order to make the method work. Quote from the instructions: "You don't have any angle issues." Well, doing it that way, that is certainly true. No, thank you.

Once again, you need to be very sensitive to how light hits the cards.

Pants. [/quote]

This is all spot on. I'm pretty disappointed in these gimmicks, though I should know by now not to pre-order anything. I've liked several of Lloyd's products in the past and I think his explanations are excellent, but these gimmicks are simply too impractical to use anywhere.

My simple recommendation is to save your money.
Message: Posted by: Kevin Li (Jul 3, 2015 03:34PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, Kevin Li wrote:
Just received my set as well! Very happy to say I'm pleased with the quality of the gimmmicks! Watching the instructions soon and will post a small review after that. So excited to use this :) [/quote]

I'm not sure the quality of the product is in question but more the ability of the product to function as a magic effect. Not too good so far. [/quote]

Actually, I do take into consideration the quality of gimmicks because if they aren't reliable or break easily, it's not something I would personally use at all. That being said, I just watched the main portion of each tutorial. Here are my thoughts:

Cord through card - like Maddy mentioned, it is very hard to get the sweet spot and it is also super ballsy. I will not be using this, but like Lloyd said on the video, it was only included as an experiment card.

Jumping Angels- Make the angels jump around. I will use this with twilight angels someday. You can even cover one of the angels and make a routine where the angel vanishes then reappears.

Color Change- By far my favorite among everything else! Showed my friends and they loved it! Not hard to get the angles down and can be performed in many different ways. Hold it up to eye level or just place it on top of the deck.

Coin Change- So you get two coin gimmicks you need to do some work before you can use it.(everything other effect comes ready out of the box) Both are half dollars. First one is changing the half dollar to an american penny or likewise and the second is a half dollar that changes from heads to tails.

Blur- Boy...this is something else... I will be playing around with this further because it has lots of potential.


Teaching is top notch as usual, coming from Elluionist.


Anyways, these are my thoughts and overall, I'm glad to have preordered this. It may not be for everyone, but hey, more change for me haha.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 3, 2015 04:44PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, Kevin Li wrote:

Teaching is top notch as usual, coming from Elluionist.

[/quote]

This was one aspect I didn't mention other than some aspects as to what was taught. It seemed that VERY little was spent on production values, especially for the first 3 effects in the tutorial. Of course, that doesn't affect the quality of the teaching, necessarily, but it was surprising with such a hyped release from Ellusionist.

I can't say I thought the teaching was particularly good, but that may have stemmed from the fact that I felt he/they were handicapped by the material. YMMV, naturally.

I did have one LOL moment as I watched. After one effect (can't remember which) had been run through there was some discussion about it, and I heard, "...and there are some issues...well, not really issues..." :)
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 3, 2015 05:38PM)
This is just laughably bad. Seriously. The ad should have said: "Very practical...as long as your goal is to fool absolutely no one...except the idiots that preorder this."
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 3, 2015 06:52PM)
Been thinking about something for awhile, perhaps could be applied to many effects these days, but especially this one....

Current trends seem to suggest that the more 'visual', the better the effect. I personally think that, taken to the extreme, 'visuality' is a detriment.

For example, it really don't think the color change here has anything on a well-executed Erdnase/Houdini change. The coin change isn't as good, in my opinion, as your standard spellbound change.

You need a wave of the hand, a snap of the fingers or some indication that the performer caused the magic. A lot of these new fangled visual wonders just seem more like technological accomplishments than real magic. And don't get me started on app magic....(sigh).
Message: Posted by: Slackerking (Jul 3, 2015 07:55PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
This is just laughably bad. Seriously. The ad should have said: "Very practical...as long as your goal is to fool absolutely no one...except the idiots that preorder this." [/quote]

Do you have the effect? No? Didn't think so. You're on almost every thread badmouthing effects, none of which you've even probably purchased.
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jul 3, 2015 08:16PM)
Having to hold the card at eye level for one person..no thanks.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 3, 2015 08:36PM)
Actually Slackerking, I do saddly have this...along with 30 yrs experience. So I am more than qualified to criticize this crappy product. If you like it and want to insult your audience's intelligence, go right ahead and continue destroying magic.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 3, 2015 09:57PM)
On a more positive note, and with it being 2015, I was inspired by the method of this "life changing" magic gimmick to bite the bullet and buy this!!! (see video below)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16ysdEAcMTA

I feel it was a much better use of my money and I'm quite glad I didn't respond to all the hype (which by this point in my life actually turns me OFF much more often than it turns me ON)

The angles are superb. It gets great reactions from everyone. It works beautifully in nearly all light conditions, even if spectators are sitting, standing, or lying sideways on the floor. Almost as a bonus, it wasn't preceded by the most irritating, over-hyped ad campaign of the century! All in all, it's one of the best purchases I've made in a long time. I highly recommend it.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 3, 2015 11:39PM)
Have I mentioned I love this?

My advice for all the haters... have a friend help you understand the angles. I had my gf help me and in about 30 minutes I had a great understanding of the angles.



I performed it for her mother much later. She was VERY amazed. She said, "Now wait a minute... wasn't that card red just a minute ago?... While you were holding it there it just slowly changed to blue... now hold on... do it again."

I asked her what she thought of the effect and she said it was amazing; she said that it was a VERY good trick.




As the saying goes, "Don't knock it till you try it." I am loving it and will definitely get use out of it.
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 4, 2015 02:03AM)
Just got this. Watching it now. Will review Soon.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 4, 2015 03:41AM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
This is just laughably bad. Seriously. The ad should have said: "Very practical...as long as your goal is to fool absolutely no one...except the idiots that preorder this." [/quote]

I might give this one a miss in that case. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Andrew Sway (Jul 4, 2015 06:34AM)
If think this concept was already used by Alvo Stockman the name of the effect is "Battle of the Sexes"

So the concept is not new in magic just the use with playingcards
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 06:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
This is just laughably bad. Seriously. The ad should have said: "Very practical...as long as your goal is to fool absolutely no one...except the idiots that preorder this." [/quote]

I might give this one a miss in that case. :rotf: [/quote]
emyers99 got stung bad. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jul 4, 2015 08:42AM)
Got it. heading straght for the junk drawer. worthless. disappointed.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 4, 2015 09:05AM)
Seems like the more experienced give this thumbs down. Very interesting.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 09:09AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Marvello wrote:
Got it. heading straght for the junk drawer. worthless. disappointed. [/quote]
Another satisfied customer. Totally wasted your money there. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 4, 2015 09:29AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, RNK wrote:
Seems like the more experienced give this thumbs down. Very interesting. [/quote]


Ouch... I am far from inexperienced. It seems to me like the lazy ones are giving this a thumbs down.


It seriously only takes 30 minutes to know what the perfect angles are.

If this were some knacky move, the lazy magicians would give up; the good magicians would practice it, get it down, and then go out and perform it. This is a gimmick, but it still needs practice. In my mind it's no different than every other decent effect.


How many of the people who don't like it played with it for longer than 10 minutes? How many had a friend help them with the angles? Better yet, how many of those so called "more experienced magicians" took it out to try it in the real world? Hmmm... none.


While I have given it a test drive and it got GREAT reactions.



I guess some are afraid of the lighting issue, but again, with just a little thought, it's easy to get in a position that is better suited light wise.
Message: Posted by: Jmolomagic (Jul 4, 2015 09:55AM)
Can this be performed at a strolling gig, with groups of more than one and surrounded?
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 4, 2015 10:49AM)
I do not like this. Check back around 3:00 P.M Eastern time for my critical but fair review. Also. I will be giving away CHANGE so you will have a chance to own it for those who did not get to purchase it.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 4, 2015 11:23AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pelicantrapper wrote:
I do not like this. Check back around 3:00 P.M Eastern time for my critical but fair review. Also. I will be giving away CHANGE so you will have a chance to own it for those who did not get to purchase it. [/quote]

I can't imagine there will be too much of a queue.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 11:38AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pelicantrapper wrote:
I do not like this. Check back around 3:00 P.M Eastern time for my critical but fair review. Also. I will be giving away CHANGE so you will have a chance to own it for those who did not get to purchase it. [/quote]

I can't imagine there will be too much of a queue. [/quote]
Yes, things have got to pretty bad if the thing can't even be given away. So many unfortunate people have wasted their money here. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jul 4, 2015 12:06PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
How many of the people who don't like it played with it for longer than 10 minutes? How many had a friend help them with the angles? Better yet, how many of those so called "more experienced magicians" took it out to try it in the real world? Hmmm... none.[/quote]
I played with it for quite awhile - I do not toss money away lightly. I used a mirror, and a video camera, and my wife to help with angles. Took it to a strolling gig and everyone was underwhelmed with this trick, yet loved the rest. As I said - worthless junk.
Message: Posted by: Michael Dustman (Jul 4, 2015 12:43PM)
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, Slackerking wrote:
[quote]On Jul 3, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
This is just laughably bad. Seriously. The ad should have said: "Very practical...as long as your goal is to fool absolutely no one...except the idiots that preorder this." [/quote]

Do you have the effect? No? Didn't think so. You're on almost every thread badmouthing effects, none of which you've even probably purchased. [/quote]

Wow.....things just got awkward very fast. So, Eric has it, and you don't yet, but his opinion is to be discounted? Interesting.....

For the record, I would have to rack my brain to think of an effect that Eric has given a critique on that he hasn't purchased and tried. The one that I know he was critical of and didn't purchase, was one I happened to purchase and show him. I will say, Eric showed this to me yesterday. The angles are "glaringly" bad for the color changing card. The moving angel was a little better at a right angle, but I would say to answer Jonathan's question....I think it would be difficult to do for a group of more than one in front of you. I haven't watched the explanation, but from what Eric and I discussed, pretty sure those spectators would have to scrunch close together like they were taking a selfie.

Not that Eric needs me defending him, but to respond to Magic.Maddy, Eric did have not only a friend but another "experienced magician" (as you preferred to say) help look at angles. I told him that performing it last night at the Red, White, and Boom event might have been the best venue....in the dark with fireworks going off.

I don't mind if some like it and some don't....I just can't stand when the assumptions start (must not actually own it) or one magician is more lazy than another experienced one. Isn't this a brotherhood of magic???? Geeze. But.....Happy 4th.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 12:49PM)
Good points Dusty.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 4, 2015 12:53PM)
I honestly think that E have managed to hack into Maddy's account.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 4, 2015 01:00PM)
For the record, I love you all, especially Dustman. What he was kind enough not to mention is that I do buy pretty much everything that hits the market. Bad for me. Good for you because I do try to always post honest reviews to help you all save money...even if it means I literally have an office full of magic crap.
Message: Posted by: DVYRCKT (Jul 4, 2015 01:18PM)
Mine arrived yesterday. It was exactly as I had expected, gimmick wise.

This should have been marketed more as "A fun toy to play around with" instead of whats on the front of the packaging "5 visual changes that will change your life". Positive side of things, each gimmick is technically 6 bucks.

I agree with Marvello on this one, for the audience this is a totally underwhelmed moment, just zips right by the spectator. There is no magic awesomeness with this that most good tricks achieve. I will for sure play with the blurred king gimmick, make an instagram video with the color change gimmick, & probably mount them on the wall in a frame as more of a house decoration piece than a magic item.

- Davey
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 4, 2015 01:18PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
For the record, I love you all, especially Dustman. What he was kind enough not to mention is that I do buy pretty much everything that hits the market. Bad for me. Good for you because I do try to always post honest reviews to help you all save money...even if it means I literally have an office full of magic crap. [/quote]


This is one example of what I meant. The experienced.

Thank you Eric!
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 4, 2015 01:42PM)
CHANGE BY LLOYD BARNES AND ELLUSIONIST REVIEWED. + FREE CHANGE GIVEAWAY
HERE IS THE VIDEO REVIEW------- http://youtu.be/LkfsBL1fgsI
Below is my full detailed review.


First off, I am a professional magician. Magic generates a good portion of my income. I need an effect that works and will get me booked. This is not something I will ever use. CHANGE WILL NOT "CHANGE YOUR LIFE" I got Bandwidth by Greg Wilson a few days ago and I was EXCITED LIKE A KID GETTING HIS FIRST MAGIC TRICK AGAIN. It was well priced. The gimmicks are beautiful and the method is diabolically clever. SADLY, CHANGE DID NOT EXCITE ME ONE BIT. IT was and is a disappointment. Not lazy either (as someone mentioned above) I spent 3+ hours the other night assembling Sealed by Menny Lindenfeld. Check my other reviews and videos for credibility. ------------ANYWAYS ON TO THE REVIEW----

The packaging is very nice. Just a small printed cardboard sleeve that looks like the Ellusionist ad.
Comes with 5 gimmicked cards. Very well made.

Disappointed with the production quality. Most of the video is just Lloyd from chest level up in his apartment (it appears) with no camera man. If Brad Christian "flew the artist 5,000 miles from the UK to San Francisco" then why is there no camera man. We know you can afford it. This makes the project seem rushed to me. I have no studio and I can still get myself a camera man. Also Disappointed with the marketing techniques. The expletives in the emails (although they were censored) do not persuade me to buy a product. It reminds me of when I was younger, I got started in magic at the age of 10. Around this time my parents bought me magic from Ellusionist. They would NOT have bought me magic and I may not have been where I am today if they were sending out emails reviewing magic with expletives. Simply inappropriate.

NO LIVE PERFORMANCE. ZERO CONFIDENCE GIVEN TO GO OUT AND PERFORM THIS. AND I LOVE "GUTSY" MAGIC.

NOW ONTO THE MAGIC-

Morpheus- The color changing card. The card changes from red to blue or blue to red. They teach you to flash the card briefly and talk about how the card doesn't really know what it wants (to be red or blue). You then flash it briefly and allow the spectator to see the card changing color back and forth. This is not a strait up red to blue change. Although it can be done like that you would risk exposing the method trying to do a strait up color change. This is OK The change looks good and I could see it possibly working if you just flash it real quick and use proper patter about the card being confused or what ever patter you like. The red color of the card is slightly darker than a real card and does not look real. (To me)

FORGE-
You get 2 half dollar size coins "printed" on a card. You must cut them out yourself. One changes from heads up to tails and is rather useless in my opinion. Lloyd did suggest a cool effect such as placing the coin on heads, putting it in between glass in the spectators hands and then making it change to tails. This would work. But who is carrying around small glass plates? Unless you're performing my effect from 8 years ago. Liquid! (:

The second coin changes from a half dollar to a penny. This looks good. The only problem I have is that you change a half dollar to a penny. BUT THE PENNY IS THE SAME SIZE AS THE HALF DOLLAR. Something just wont be right in the spectators heads when they see this giant penny. Also not sure of the point of this gimmick because in order to end clean you must still do a switch. I would rather use a coin sh*** or a retention change.

TRANCE THE BLURRED KING-
This effect could work. You show them a king and then take control of their vision and make the king out of focus briefly, then it comes back into focus.. This is another one like Morpheus where you flash the card and do the blurring rather quickly. The idea is angles don't matter because the card is supposed to be going in and out of focus. Lloyd suggests talking to the spectator about being drunk or if they have ever been drunk (which may be the only time this effect will work). If you perform this and Morpheus in a short flashy way you should be okay.

Freefall- headphones through card--
This one may work. I feel that this is the only one that can't be performed surrounded because every ones eyes will see the ipod cord slightly differently or possibly not at all. There is a cut in the demo because LLoyd filmed it himself AND the cut also hides one sleight you must do for the trick to work. Also, who carries headphones anymore? I was racking my brain thinking of friends who wear headphone and guess what? No one close to me uses headphones. I use headphones but they are black and the gimmick card cord is white. The last person I saw using headphones was the gentleman walking laps around Panera Bread or the mall You're better off making your own gimmicked iPod cord and doing this with sleight of hand. It would look a million times better with a real iPod cord. But If you perform this for a few people you may get good reactions.

Icarus The moving angels-

This effect looks cool and is probably the one card that I would use out of this entire set. Although after seeing this I prefer Matt Mellos WINGS. The flying angels just seemed more elegant. But Yeah, this one looks good.

Daniel Madison sits in on 2 of the effects and offers some good gambling sleight of hand advice for cleanup. He teaches a drop change briefly that I think is cooler than any of these gimmicked cards. He also indirectly says that there is heat on the gimmicked cards by saying "not that there would be heat on the card but you could do this instead" type of thing. They are also all of a sudden in a studio with a camera man now. The music is much louder than the audio from Lloyd causing me to constantly change the volume.

Wrap up-
These cards are slightly darker than real cards and have a shiny appearance that normal cards do not give off. To me this effect is not a worker. Hence the reason why I am giving it away.(Watch my video to find out how to win).
All of these effects are meant to be done quickly. Like the card is only supposed to be in play for a brief moment then switched and handed out for examination in order to end clean. I like to compare it to how sometimes it is better to animate a dollar (barely moving it) instead of fully levitating it because levitating it almost seems too impossible. That's how these cards are, too impossible. I feel like your spectator will immediately jump to the conclusion of trick cards unless you just animate a little bit. Also the animation requires you to do the move that makes the trick work. This is not too big of a deal because the range of motion needed is rather small but it could still pose problems.
Do not buy this trick. Instead buy any of the Art of Astonishment books.

CONTEST RULES- SUBSCIRBE TO MY YOUTUBE. SEND ME A MESSAGE ON YOUTUBE. I will draw a name Monday at 8:00 P.M. EST.
(I know the video said "tomorrow" but I want to give people more time to enter. Thanks!

Thanks all.
Helping you make educated purchases.
your friend in magic,
Pelican.

Check my channel for reviews of the newest magic releases and your chance to win free magic!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 01:53PM)
Honestly, I was appalled that the teaching/effects - particularly for the CC Card and the transposing angels - were being introduced as capable of "changing magic forever".

I have bought only a handful of items over the years from Ellusionist. They've got a reputation for hype (though I don't recall anything that matches "Change"), but also a generally good reputation for customer service and putting out good quality material. I have to wonder, though, if "Change" could have the poorest "hype to reality" ratio of any product they have ever released?
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 4, 2015 02:00PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Honestly, I was appalled that the teaching/effects - particularly for the CC Card and the transposing angels - were being introduced as capable of "changing magic forever".

I have bought only a handful of items over the years from Ellusionist. They've got a reputation for hype (though I don't recall anything that matches "Change"), but also a generally good reputation for customer service and putting out good quality material. I have to wonder, though, if "Change" could have the poorest "hype to reality" ratio of any product they have ever released? [/quote]

I whole heartedly agree. I love everything I have ever gotten from them. Like I said they are where I got my true start with magic. But Change truly does have the "poorest "hype to reality ratio"

I feel like Brad wanted to make money so he picked a "pawn" to put his name on the effect. So he could hype it up and make money off of nothing. Not seriously but Elluminati anyone? (:
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 4, 2015 02:25PM)
There are 2 people I don't trust and will never purchase any of there Hyped Products

Sanns Mind

And

Elusionist

Time and Time again they both promise the earth but never deliver

Sad thing is even though people have been burned

In a few weeks time when the next hyped item comes out I expect the same people
will be saying the same things again

Some people never learn

Don't believe the hype.

Don't pre order anything
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 4, 2015 02:59PM)
Please, everyone demand their money back. Don't let them get away with this.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 03:04PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pegasus wrote:
Please, everyone demand their money back. Don't let them get away with this. [/quote]

Hitting the wallet is the likely the only way to spur any change in behavior. On my return form, I let them know very clearly my feelings about the effect and the hype. I thought about simply selling mine, but I just didn't want them to turn around and sell it to someone else.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 03:05PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, pegasus wrote:
Please, everyone demand their money back. Don't let them get away with this. [/quote]
Pegasus, great call.

The rest of us are all laughing at the purchasers. Look...

:rotf: :goof: :lol: :bigsmile: :sun: :heehee: :nana: :bg:

Do you really want to be the laughing stock?

No, didn't think so.

DEMAND a refund NOW!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 03:08PM)
Jamie, would you like something to scoop? Here's something for ya to scoop! Reminds me of "Change," too! :)

What a combination!

[img]https://imgflip.com/readImage?iid=19144545[/img]
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 03:10PM)
Brilliant Chessman! :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 03:14PM)
Here we go, Jaime! Its perfect!

[img]http://www.rotherhamparishcouncils.gov.uk/getfile/fa537d51-575f-4b06-8b96-1a957e8f6891/dog-turd.aspx[/img]
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 03:16PM)
Look, Jaime! This one comes with 5 gimmicks, too!

[img]http://sliccoolgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Bp0vtwgWkKGrHqEH-DsEu-eWITBLtC8S2S7g_1-300x225.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 4, 2015 03:24PM)
This is just about to get out of hand. We are all professionals here. Can we not discuss this more in a way that does not make everyone look like 12 year old boys? I ordered this effect and have not received it as of yet. When I do I will leave an honest review.

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 4, 2015 03:26PM)
Unlucky Altrez.

I think Chessman's pics of the product are quite accurate.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 03:41PM)
Oh, I don't think a little fun is too out of order.

But I promise I will refrain from posting any more pictures of "Change".
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 4, 2015 05:07PM)
We aren't hearing anything more from Geraint or Lloyd now, are we?

Sometimes I wonder why Lloyd bothers to release his best stuff to the public.

I'm expecting mine on Monday. If I'm unhappy with it, I will be asking for a refund without a doubt.

I may even take it straight to PayPal just to go on the record with them.

That's the only way to stop this sort of thing from happening again.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 4, 2015 06:14PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, minderX wrote:
If think this concept was already used by Alvo Stockman the name of the effect is "Battle of the Sexes"

So the concept is not new in magic just the use with playingcards [/quote]

But the blurb stated "It's a new concept that could help CHANGE magic forever."

So not only was the advertising over-hyped.. it was also flat out WRONG. And yes I still think that the animation of the card changing with no camera movement and no card movement is dishonest and misleading.

BTW, did anyone else notice that not one, but ALL of the "what people are saying" quotes in one of the emails came from social media sites.. i.e. from people who had only seen the trailer?
"Here's what people are saying so far about CHANGE:
"That's alien technology...out of this world!!!" - Will Palmer, Facebook
"Holy @%#&" - anandmagic, Instagram
"Wtf??? amazing" - Israel Gonzalez, Facebook
"Actually looks like pure unreal impossible magic need this now" - adam_grangea, Instagram
"I can't believe what I just saw" - mygamingisepic, Youtube
"god its amazing, made my skin crawl" - Shevins Kunjumon, Youtube
"Change by @LloydTBarnes is one of the best pieces of magic I have seen in a long time, It is CrAzY DoPe! #ChangeMagicForever" -@SamRazMagic, Twitter
"Have watched the trailer for CHANGE too many times to count. Have CHANGED my pants too many times to count. Thanks @Ellusionist !!" -@K1ng0f5pades, Twitter.

And now we're getting a slap on the wrist because someone dares to compare it to a pile of feces? I think, all things considered, that it's an incredibly reasonable and fair comparison. But the cry-babies keep on.. Ah well. Deal with it.
Message: Posted by: SmaltrabTheAverage (Jul 4, 2015 07:01PM)
I wasn't going to admit to it as I feel so utterly embarrassed that I fell into the trap. I've been buying and performing for many years and should have known better. My name is Smaltrab, and I bought this.

Had I have seen the comment by Lloyd, or read any of this thread before I purchased, I would never have bought this. "Magic that will change your life" is a extremely bold statement, so how DARE you whine about people having some pessimism ESPECIALLY that you've sold 2000 at $30. That's $60,000 hard earned dollars you taken!!!!!!! (I know that because I even checked it with a calculator, so there!) I imagine most people work hard for their money, so it's their RIGHT to want to be a little curious, ask questions, pick it apart a little and when Ellusionist makes stupid claims, that even an experienced magician like me, fell for. You can expect the backlash when deliver the crap you sent.

I expect no-one to give a sh*t, especially not Lloyd or Ellusionist, but I'm absolutely livid after reading his comment. What an absolute disgrace to magic you and Ellusionist are for the way you have marketed this effect. If anything, I think you owe people an apology, and having Magic.Maddy writing posts whoever she/he is, is also an embarrassment. Hand on heart, if my best friend released this to the world, I would make them stand-up and apologise for the marketing. I actually wouldn't have been bothered if I'd have bought it, like I've bought some other un-usable stuff over the years, if the ad copy was genuine.

I'm sure I'll get banned for airing my views so bluntly, but in this case I'll compare buying this effect to having someones thumb shoved up my arse without any spit.

I look forward to your review of my upcoming release... which is about average, and will marketed as such.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 4, 2015 08:49PM)
Funny that I didn't see a thread about this on the Ellusionist forum. I wonder what poor moderator has to delete every "this sucks" post. Must be an all-day job trying to hide the truth from the public.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 09:00PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
Funny that I didn't see a thread about this on the Ellusionist forum. I wonder what poor moderator has to delete every "this sucks" post. Must be an all-day job trying to hide the truth from the public. [/quote]

Yes, I went there and was very surprised not to find a single mention of it.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 4, 2015 09:02PM)
And no reviews posted yet on the product page on E's site
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 4, 2015 09:05PM)
Has anyone tried or has it been disabled?
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 4, 2015 09:05PM)
I saw on Facebook a video of the gimmick with face cards changing.. It looked god awful.. You could still see the original card after it changed. I don't see anyone really being fooled by the cards.

Really glad I avoided this lol
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jul 4, 2015 09:33PM)
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
I urge people to please not fish for methods[/quote]
this is laughable - the method is obvious and unconvincing. can I get a refund?
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 4, 2015 10:08PM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Marvello wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
I urge people to please not fish for methods[/quote]
this is laughable - the method is obvious and unconvincing. can I get a refund? [/quote]

Ellusionist agreed to my 'request' for a refund. They sent me the form they require and it is on its way back to CA. My email went to:

support@ellusionist.com

May not be the one they want you to use for refunds, but it worked. I just replied to the email that my order confirmation/info was on.
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jul 4, 2015 10:39PM)
If it ended with the more you know it would be perfect.
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 4, 2015 10:39PM)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/wvNIpzW.gif[/img]

Pre-orders only
Message: Posted by: Marvello (Jul 5, 2015 12:14AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, Marvello wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
I urge people to please not fish for methods[/quote]
this is laughable - the method is obvious and unconvincing. can I get a refund? [/quote]

Ellusionist agreed to my 'request' for a refund. They sent me the form they require and it is on its way back to CA. My email went to:

support@ellusionist.com

May not be the one they want you to use for refunds, but it worked. I just replied to the email that my order confirmation/info was on. [/quote]
thanks for the info!
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 5, 2015 02:55AM)
So, how long until this thread gets deleted?
Message: Posted by: Archey (Jul 5, 2015 06:05AM)
I'm going to post something on the Ellusionist forum to see what happens.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 5, 2015 06:19AM)
[quote]On Jul 4, 2015, gtx magic wrote:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/wvNIpzW.gif[/img]

Pre-orders only [/quote]

Funny thing is, if you were to combine the gimmick from this GIF with Marc's Shapeshifter color change(released on a Ellusionist DVD, ironically), you'd have a much better effect than CHANGE.
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 5, 2015 06:21AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
So, how long until this thread gets deleted? [/quote]

Was this an item officially sponsored by the Café? If so, I'm suprised the thread lasted this long!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 10:33AM)
The Café sponsors effects? Didn't know that...do you mean the PMs we get from Steve Brooks about effects from time to time?

The thread has been ok, I think (well, other than my dog turd photos!). I think most of the time, as long as you stick to the effect and don't get too personal with a creator or company, things are ok. Generally :)
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 5, 2015 10:39AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:


Was this an item officially sponsored by the Café? If so, I'm suprised the thread lasted this long! [/quote]

Yes, it was promoted by Steve brooks, also 3 or 4 members here seem to of seen it before release and gave it glowing reviews - such as..

" Having known the method for a few months now, I can testify that it's even more exciting than the effect itself."
"This is one of the coolest and freshest principles in magic, and I'm excited to finally be able to use it. You won't be dissapointed. "
"This is really great stuff. The technology isn't that new, but the way it's utilised here is astounding. I saw early prototypes about a year ago and not only is it SO much fun to play with, it looks incredible too.

I can't wait to see the final gimmicks. It isn't often that something so practical and low-tech is hidden from an industry like ours, I have no doubt it'll make people think in a radically different way about visual magic."

"Lloyds going to break the Internet with this thing! This looks Soooooo good! "

Hype on the Café...nah, surely not.
magicians HELPING magicians -to spend their hard earned dosh it would seem.
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 5, 2015 10:43AM)
Okay to be fair, Magic_Maddy sent me a video performance of him performing a routine with Change.

It was actually really nice. The gimmick is still obvious to me.. But his routine was great.
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 5, 2015 10:59AM)
Well, we already know it can work for the camera, but most of the reviews from purchasers seem to imply working it live with real specs will be a problem.
this tech was developed in the 1940's, I remember getting quite a few examples in cereal boxes, it seemed clever, when I was 6 years old
Message: Posted by: scott0819 (Jul 5, 2015 11:53AM)
So...when is CHANGE VOLUME 2 going to be available for preorder?
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 5, 2015 02:43PM)
Lloyd Barnes:

"THIS IS A COMPLETELY REVOLUTIONARY NEW CONCEPT [except its not new or revolutionary] that allows you to do slow motion visual magic completely under your control [unless the spectators decide to move, in which case it's under their control]. Imagine being able to do magic that looks like something from a movie, in real life [as long as "real life" means one spectator strapped to a chair unable to move]. It's completely revolutionary [it's not]. It's complete real life magic... There's only 999 copies so you've got to jump on this today... We're limited to just 999 copies [again, nope] in the warehouse and if you don't jump on this they're gonna go."

Lenticular playing card, posted on youtube in 2007!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7D0Zk87FY8

*facepalm*
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 5, 2015 02:52PM)
More lenticular playing cards.. here reviewed on youtube in 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rqn6TqbWJM
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 5, 2015 02:53PM)
But wasn't it blatantly obvious to anyone with more than one brain cell that it was lenticular technology in use? Jeesh.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 5, 2015 03:00PM)
I think people below a certain age range may well not have bumped into lenticular rulers, posters, etc, unless they've been lucky. I'm over 30, and at primary school many kids had the lenticular "3D" rulers, and more recently I have seen lenticular posters, but I doubt "everyone" is aware of it, and due to the presentation of the trailer, the claims of "revolutionary concept" plus the misleading animation on the buy page, I don't doubt for a second that even those who are aware of lenticular products will have, in many cases, been fooled into ruling that method out.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 5, 2015 03:07PM)
Ellusionist have sold out and are ordering 1,000 more sets. It says on their website...

"NOTE: CHANGE SOLD OUT in less than a day. We're extending a pre-order to allow another 1,000 people to purchase, and orders will begin shipping next week."

It's hilarious to think so many people have paid good money for this.

Customers - :angry:

Me - :lol:
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 03:53PM)
Jaime, that actually happened before people who ordered the first 999 received theirs.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 5, 2015 03:55PM)
Thanks for the clarification Chessmann.

So more pre-orders on top of pre-orders. For this tripe. 1940s technology!

I've never laughed so much in my life.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 03:58PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:

I've never laughed so much in my life.

[/quote]

Ah, go choke on a haggis, Ferguson :)
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 5, 2015 03:59PM)
He he, nice one Chessmann!
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 5, 2015 04:26PM)
Hey you could always drown your sorrows with a beer..
http://www.playingcardsonly.co.uk/buy/find-playing-cards-by-theme/3d-beer-playing-cards-lenticular-moving-motion-effect.htm

Though I think these will be more appropriate for most receiving CHANGE, I can see buyers turning from a man to a beast filled with rage ;)
https://coinsforanything.com/store/special-edition-full-moon-werewolf-playing-cards
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jul 5, 2015 08:42PM)
Just saw Lloyd teasing what looks to be Chabge volume 2 on his Instagram. It's a face change like the blue to red color change on volume 1 and a red to blue color change that happens while the card sits on the deck. Bet this information changes a lot, lol.
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jul 5, 2015 08:43PM)
Just saw Lloyd teasing what looks to be Chabge volume 2 on his Instagram. It's a face change like the blue to red color change on volume 1 and a red to blue color change that happens while the card sits on the deck. Bet this changes everybody's view. lol. Jk.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 09:21PM)
The red-blue change seems no different than the current version. If they have made no improvements to the gimmicks for a second version, their marketing better change if Ellusionist desire to maintain what credibility they have currently brought themselves to.
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jul 5, 2015 09:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
The red-blue change seems no different than the current version. If they have made no improvements to the gimmicks for a second version, their marketing better change if Ellusionist desire to maintain what credibility they have currently brought themselves to. [/quote]

Sure it's different! It's blue to red instead of red to blue! :P
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 5, 2015 10:11PM)
Ha! I just found the version of this "revolutionary new concept" that I had when I was at primary school, back in the mid 80's! Anyone else have one of these? Now back then, it really DID change my life, and it really WAS the last ruler I ever needed!

Perhaps, Lloyd Barnes, it might be a good idea to actually do some research before making your next batch of ridiculous, wild claims. (see 2007 lenticular playing card link above)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sRppN0mXzA
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 5, 2015 10:18PM)
Just watched the vid from his instagram. The 2nd face change is awful and revealing too much IMO. I wonder why he posted it. Looks so good on the camera. But, when the spec moves around it will looks like a glitch (like on the 2nd face change). To anyone who used to see this on his/her childhood's ruler will know how it works that instantly. Using the rest of the deck and covering a little with a finger or two will surely help (like the back change on his video).
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 5, 2015 10:50PM)
I assume the next or "the next-next" volume, they going to make a random card changes into a spec's card with her signature on it. That'll have a greater value than what they've right now. Just my assumption, though..
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 5, 2015 10:52PM)
I'm having issues with my account so I can only post from one computer currently.


Wow has this thread gone to crap... literally!


The more I play with it, the more I love it. Again, the angles are very easy to understand especially once you've had a friend help.

For the people who used it and got a bad reaction, it's probably from a bad performance with no meaning attached. Of course they aren't going to be blown away if you just say, "Look at what this cad can do... cool huh?"


I came up with a slightly goofy presentation but it at least makes it a little meaningful and makes it entertaining for the spectators. Here's the video of the presentation if anyone wants to see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4XCTK3kJRE


And yes, it works just as good (or better) in person than on camera.


I wasn't burned by this product, I knew exactly what I was getting and I knew what the angle requirements would be. I think $30 is a very fair price for a well made gimmick. The people I have performed it for (in person and not on camera) have been very impressed by it. It doesn't seem like a lenticular lense when performed properly. Just like any other gimmick, if it isn't used properly, of course it will be obvious what it is. If someone uses a thumb tip badly, it becomes painful obvious for the layperson that there's a fake thumb. If it is used well, even magicians will be fooled by its applications.

People are treating this differently than other gimmicks and not giving it even a quarter of the time they give other gimmicks. Crazy.
Message: Posted by: TheAmazingSteveo (Jul 5, 2015 11:08PM)
Maddy,

Nice video!

- Steve
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 11:10PM)
Maddy, the card looked more than half blue before you changed it to fully blue (I even caught what looked to be a flash of purple, at one point). It looked more like a lighting change than a color change. Check the look of the regular cards vs. the look of the gaffed card prior to the change. It is already half blue...it really is a significant difference. And you know, that's not necessarily an angle problem. It could be a lighting problem. You clearly thought you had a good angle, but the gaff was done in more likely by the lighting (it could have been an angle mis-calculation, though).

But all of this is not a case of "not knowing the angles". The angles are only 1 of many problems - there are things that sabotage the angles!

I know what you're trying to say re: gimmicks, but TTs don't reflect light when they shouldn't, aren't designed to be handled openly, TTs are not the trick - they are not what the audience sees and is focused on.

The video demonstrates that even on video in a carefully managed situation, "Change" is too likely to change on you.

You do come across great, have an engaging personality, and clearly enjoy what you do. That was definitely nice!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 11:15PM)
Edit
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 5, 2015 11:35PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, TheAmazingSteveo wrote:
Maddy,

Nice video!

- Steve [/quote]

Thanks Steve!

[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Maddy, the card looked more than half blue before you changed it to fully blue (I even caught what looked to be a flash of purple, at one point). It looked more like a lighting change than a color change. Check the look of the regular cards vs. the look of the gaffed card prior to the change. It is already half blue...it really is a significant difference. And you know, that's not necessarily an angle problem. It could be a lighting problem. You clearly thought you had a good angle, but the gaff was done in more likely by the lighting (it could have been an angle mis-calculation, though).

But all of this is not a case of "not knowing the angles". The angles are only 1 of many problems - there are things that sabotage the angles!

I know what you're trying to say re: gimmicks, but TTs don't reflect light when they shouldn't, aren't designed to be handled openly, TTs are not the trick - they are not what the audience sees and is focused on.

The video demonstrates that even on video in a carefully managed situation, "Change" is too likely to change on you.

You do come across great, have an engaging personality, and clearly enjoy what you do. That was definitely nice! [/quote]


I agree with the colorization issue. It's one reason I think this is actually easier to perform in person than on camera. On camera, you can rewind, over analyze, and get glares from the screen. Also, the angles are different performing for a camera than for real people. The camera just faces forward (or at least mine does.) People's eyes (at the proper angle) slightly look down on the card. That is the main issue with the colorization in the video. I didn't fully account for the straighter eye of the camera. Regardless, I thought it would be good to demonstrate that most laymen don't notice the difference in color.

And lay audience DON'T notice the difference in color of red. (Believe me.) The most hopeful thing my friend taught me was to be sure to not show the top card of the deck as the change happens otherwise they have something to compare the color to.

It remind me of misled. The color of the gimmick never matched my pencil perfectly. The color was off. However there was always a bill between the two colors so that they couldn't be compared side by side. Magicians are MUCH more used to the colors of cards than laymen.


But thanks for the compliments. I really do appreciate it :)
Message: Posted by: Sashac (Jul 5, 2015 11:43PM)
Great presentation/performance Maddy! It'd be great if the card were green at the end :)
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 5, 2015 11:48PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Sashac wrote:
Great presentation/performance Maddy! It'd be great if the card were green at the end :) [/quote]


Thanks Sasha :)


And I actually thought about that! I just didn't have any other colored cards on hand. But I think it's something that should be added!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 5, 2015 11:50PM)
You're welcome for the compliments, they are certainly deserved.

I wasn't so much concerned about the difference between the color of the gaff and the rest of the deck as I was just the color of the card prior to the change, as it simply wasn't anything that could be called red :)

The video did remind me very much of the test with that same card I mentioned earlier in the topic, which was live. 3 feet to one side, 3 feet to the other, 3 more feet back...all different. Nothing wrong with one on one magic, but its not just angles, it is light, too. There can be answers for these things, but I feel they lack real consistency. Kind of like Bop-A-Mole. You get one, but then another pops up somewhere else :)

And for me, it is not just the CC Card, of course, but the set, as a whole. I have still lower opinions of the ear bud card and the angels card.

Keep working, though. If Bob Kohler could make "Killer Red Caps" look good...!
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 5, 2015 11:59PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
You're welcome for the compliments, they are certainly deserved.

I wasn't so much concerned about the difference between the color of the gaff and the rest of the deck as I was just the color of the card prior to the change, as it simply wasn't anything that could be called red :)

The video did remind me very much of the test with that same card I mentioned earlier in the topic, which was live. 3 feet to one side, 3 feet to the other, 3 more feet back...all different. Nothing wrong with one on one magic, but its not just angles, it is light, too. There can be answers for these things, but I feel they lack real consistency. Kind of like Bop-A-Mole. You get one, but then another pops up somewhere else :)

And for me, it is not just the CC Card, of course, but the set, as a whole. I have still lower opinions of the ear bud card and the angels card.

Keep working, though. If Bob Kohler made "Killer Red Caps" look good...! [/quote]


Yea I hate the earbud card. Useless in my eyes.

And all fair enough. I'm not trying to convince you it's incredible (or certainly not the thing that will 'change your magic forever.') But I do think people deserve to hear both sides of the story, because for me, it's worth it. I understand you hate it, but I don't! I think it's a pretty good and fun gimmick that looks super clean.


For those that hate it, fair enough! I just think some should at least consider it a little longer before they immediately throw it into their crap drawer.
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 6, 2015 12:15AM)
I wish I could just buy "trance" card alone lol.

I feel as if that's the only one I'd actually consider using.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 6, 2015 12:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Jaime, that actually happened before people who ordered the first 999 received theirs. [/quote]

Chessman. You'll have to excuse Jamie. He's always late on his scoops. :bg:
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 6, 2015 03:13AM)
Yes, on this occasion I was behind the curve.

But not so far behind compared to people that ordered a 1930/40s style lenticular hoping for the next big thing.

Nevertheless, I will try harder next time.
Message: Posted by: MorrisCH (Jul 6, 2015 05:01AM)
After watching Maddys video, I have the erge to buy this product now... I just finish watching Insideout and it got me thinking along same line. great video, truly
Message: Posted by: Bowevil (Jul 6, 2015 08:08AM)
@Maddy-Wonderful video, even though I knew the change was coming it really looked great! Dare I say it even looked like.. "magic".
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 6, 2015 09:17AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Bowevil wrote:
@Maddy-Wonderful video, even though I knew the change was coming it really looked great! Dare I say it even looked like.. "magic". [/quote]

Yep, that was a great video.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 6, 2015 10:00AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Bowevil wrote:
@Maddy-Wonderful video, even though I knew the change was coming it really looked great! Dare I say it even looked like.. "magic". [/quote]


Thank you Bowevil. It is a great product in my mind when given the proper attention!

[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, MorrisCH wrote:
After watching Maddys video, I have the erge to buy this product now... I just finish watching Insideout and it got me thinking along same line. great video, truly [/quote]

Great idea to use a presentation with Inside Out (which is an INCREDIBLE movie just FYI to those who haven't seen it.)

[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, robd wrote:

Yep, that was a great video. [/quote]

Thank you Rob :)
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jul 6, 2015 10:15AM)
Excellent performance Maddy , very engaging personality too well done 👌
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 6, 2015 10:19AM)
I've still not had a dispatch confirmation but in fairness to Lloyd; what I am getting from the comments is actually, one on one and to camera; you are going to get a nice visual moment, but its not workable in the traditional sense, or at least not without very very careful management of your audience and not for a huge viewing angle. I still think it looks pretty cool for the right moment. I cant help but think if the bold claims had been toned down a bit and perhaps the severe restrictions were mentioned in the ad copy; E would have still sold 2000 of them and not ended up looking like they've tried to pull the wool over their customer's eyes.

I genuienly think that whilst the secret needs protecting; if there are big restrictions, it is the decent thing to mention them so people can make an informed decision whether it is for them or not. It wont bother a big company Like E but I would suggest this is a master class in a) how to flog a lot of units quickly but also b) how to antagonise some of your customer base.

You'd need big b**ls to try the same approach. ALl I would say to E is; if you come out saying "its going to change the face of magic" make sure your claims are water tight becasue as you know; people will look to shoot you down at every opportnity.
Message: Posted by: magic_tony (Jul 6, 2015 11:34AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
I genuinely think that whilst the secret needs protecting; if there are big restrictions, it is the decent thing to mention them so people can make an informed decision whether it is for them or not.[/quote]

Performance restrictions should be stated regardless of the secret. But they never will be, in general, as long as magicians contiue to put up with magic producer's/dealer's deceptive and dishonest marketing.

Magic Maddy: Seems like youtube has cut the audio from your video? Regardless of the presentation, I reckon spectators will simply think this is a 'special card'.

Does the card look perfectly normal at close-up viewing distances? It's impossible to tell on video.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 6, 2015 11:41AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, magic_tony wrote:
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
I genuinely think that whilst the secret needs protecting; if there are big restrictions, it is the decent thing to mention them so people can make an informed decision whether it is for them or not.[/quote]

Performance restrictions should be stated regardless of the secret. But they never will be, in general, as long as magicians contiue to put up with magic producer's/dealer's deceptive and dishonest marketing.

Magic Maddy: Seems like youtube has cut the audio from your video? Regardless of the presentation, I reckon spectators will simply think this is a 'special card'.

Does the card look perfectly normal at close-up viewing distances? It's impossible to tell on video. [/quote]

The audio on his youtube video is not cut, it must be your computer
Message: Posted by: puggo (Jul 6, 2015 11:54AM)
Nice effort as usual Maddy.

I agree with a previous poster that even with the controlled angles, the card had some early distortion (blue/purple from the right hand side as viewed on screen).

Still, if you and others are happy, then that is a good thing.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 6, 2015 12:19PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, puggo wrote:
Nice effort as usual Maddy.

I agree with a previous poster that even with the controlled angles, the card had some early distortion (blue/purple from the right hand side as viewed on screen).

Still, if you and others are happy, then that is a good thing. [/quote]

I to agree. Very nice presentation Maddy but I am not impressed with how the card looks. And that's on video! Wander what it looks like live.

RNK
Message: Posted by: Gaz Lawrence (Jul 6, 2015 12:28PM)
To be honest the first time I watched it I didn't even notice the slight early colour change , it's only the benefit of watching it again and again then sure I can see what you mean . A spectator will only see it once so they most likely will view it like I did first time adding to that I hadn't a clue what the effect was so didn't know was coming anyway . This is exactly as a spectators perspective as well IMO
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 6, 2015 01:23PM)
Just got Change in the mail and I am disappointed to say the least. The cards stand out like a sore thumb unless you are 3 feet away and in good lighting. I made a short video and they look good with the right lighting. Of course you could never hand theses out that's a given but they look so different from the other cards that you need to keep them moving and blend them into the deck as much as possible.

Will give them some more time and see if I can find a way to use them. However shame on Ellusionist for the very misleading hype on this product. And the fact no one from there has bothered to come on here and explain why why they did not list of the angle and lighting restrictions with this product just blows my mind.

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 6, 2015 01:23PM)
I should have mentioned this earlier. If you really want to do a cool color change, check out Michael Paul's Flicker: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S11382

Ungimmicked card. You get to use fire. Signed red card changes to blue and then back to red. Really is the same ungimmicked card. Only downside is that you pretty much ruin a card every time you do it because you will be using fire, but flicker really does look like trick photography and there are no gimmicks or angle restrictions of any kind. And, at least at the time I reviewed it when it came out, I'm not aware of anyone else ever exploring the method.
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 6, 2015 01:29PM)
[quote]On Jul 5, 2015, seanksutton wrote:
Just saw Lloyd teasing what looks to be Chabge volume 2 on his Instagram. It's a face change like the blue to red color change on volume 1 and a red to blue color change that happens while the card sits on the deck. Bet this changes everybody's view. lol. Jk. [/quote]

If they made a face changing card AND sold it as a single. That might actually work and be useful. The front prints look better than the back prints.
Nice video Maddy.
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (Jul 6, 2015 01:32PM)
I love flicker
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 6, 2015 01:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
I should have mentioned this earlier. If you really want to do a cool color change, check out Michael Paul's Flicker: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S11382

Ungimmicked card. You get to use fire. Signed red card changes to blue and then back to red. Really is the same ungimmicked card. Only downside is that you pretty much ruin a card every time you do it because you will be using fire, but flicker really does look like trick photography and there are no gimmicks or angle restrictions of any kind. And, at least at the time I reviewed it when it came out, I'm not aware of anyone else ever exploring the method. [/quote]

This Looks really good. I also can recommend WOW 2.0. It really does make people say WOW. Or the plain old Shape Shifter. "No move" color changes are cool, but I believe it is the wave of the hand or a small gesture that really makes it magical. For example , waving variations of the classic color change with open fingers.
Message: Posted by: Fire Starter (Jul 6, 2015 01:46PM)
Terrible vidio ,you do not get to see the effect,just a load of WOW and a good talk,that's all.I still use my wow 2.0 and it really fries folk just love it
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 6, 2015 04:08PM)
See... I've always hated Flicker. It seems EXTREMELY obvious what is going on to the spectator. It certainly doesn't feel or look like 'real' magic.


I prefer this to Flicker any day.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 6, 2015 04:58PM)
I just received mine. Not too excited about it. I think Chessman was spot on. Nice thinking, but the problem is in the execution.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 6, 2015 06:14PM)
When customers received CHANGE.

[url=http://imgur.com/cQ51dj3][img]http://i.imgur.com/cQ51dj3m.gif[/img][/url]
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 6, 2015 06:37PM)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/cQ51dj3.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 6, 2015 08:45PM)
Thanks for sharing the video Maddy. I agree, you come across as a lovely guy and the patter helped. I also have to agree with the criticisms about the color, and even in a low quality youtube vid filmed from a distance the card looked way too thick. My other criticism would be that you clearly were checking in your monitor to see that you had the right angles. In real life, of course, you wouldn't have this luxury. How about a more realistic video where you cover your monitor and try the same performance again? This might be a good way to prove your point that the angles can be dealt with once one knows how to handle the gimmick? My worry would be that the moment of the change is SO angle sensitive that one risks it happening prematurely. Add to this the other problems of light, spectators at different heights, angles, and distances, and regardless of your nice presentation, I just can't see how this is going to be truly practical for any more than one spectator in the perfect lighting and angle conditions.. which to my mind, renders it, basically, impractical!
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 6, 2015 09:15PM)
Unfortunately, this is the first thing I have ever bought from Ellusionist. It will probably also be my last. If I was a magic dealer I would never take money from my customers in trade for something as bad as this. Live and learn I guess. May they enjoy the last dollar they will ever get from me.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 6, 2015 10:25PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Fin wrote:
Thanks for sharing the video Maddy. I agree, you come across as a lovely guy and the patter helped. I also have to agree with the criticisms about the color, and even in a low quality youtube vid filmed from a distance the card looked way too thick. My other criticism would be that you clearly were checking in your monitor to see that you had the right angles. In real life, of course, you wouldn't have this luxury. How about a more realistic video where you cover your monitor and try the same performance again? This might be a good way to prove your point that the angles can be dealt with once one knows how to handle the gimmick? My worry would be that the moment of the change is SO angle sensitive that one risks it happening prematurely. Add to this the other problems of light, spectators at different heights, angles, and distances, and regardless of your nice presentation, I just can't see how this is going to be truly practical for any more than one spectator in the perfect lighting and angle conditions.. which to my mind, renders it, basically, impractical! [/quote]

The only reason I looked in the monitor was to check to be sure it was red. I set the angle before I looked at the monitor. Also, it is actually much more difficult doing this for a static camera that is facing completely flat. The angle is much more natural when performing for a person because when they look down at the card slightly, they are naturally at the right angle.


There isn't a pre-mature blue that could happen. I know the exact point that the color changes from my many rehearsals. Once again, with the camera the angle was slightly off since it was straight on so I had to check to be sure.

Also in the real world I use the line, "Let me know if you see him get any sadder." This prompts them to react when it turns blue which tells me the card is at the appropriate angle.
Message: Posted by: Merenkov (Jul 6, 2015 11:08PM)
I hate to throw a wet blanket on the performance video that was posted, but I think a two and a half minute build-up for a sketchy 2-second effect is the opposite of entertainment. Please don’t ever subject a real audience to that. I’ve seen John Carney perform about a dozen color changes using sleight-of-hand in the same amount of time, and it was an infinitely more magical experience.
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 6, 2015 11:16PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Merenkov wrote:
I hate to throw a wet blanket on the performance video that was posted, but I think a two and a half minute build-up for a sketchy 2-second effect is the opposite of entertainment. Please don’t ever subject a real audience to that. I’ve seen John Carney perform about a dozen color changes using sleight-of-hand in the same amount of time, and it was an infinitely more magical experience. [/quote]
I 100% completely disagree with this.

I'd much rather build an effect up and make the one moment more amazing and meaningful than do 30 different tricks in a minute.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 6, 2015 11:33PM)
Both are valid perspectives. Whichever we choose for each effect, is up to us to entertain, one way or the other. If we don't entertain, the magic doesn't matter.

If we don't do that, we may as well be doing this (pardon the selfie):

[img]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5WKLyk2FE5E/hqdefault.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 6, 2015 11:41PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Both are valid perspectives. Whichever we choose for each effect, is up to us to entertain, one way or the other. If we don't entertain, the magic doesn't matter.

If we don't do that, we may as well be doing this (pardon the selfie):

[img]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5WKLyk2FE5E/hqdefault.jpg[/img] [/quote]
Oh no here we go again... Lol!
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 6, 2015 11:41PM)
Please, no pets allowed
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 6, 2015 11:42PM)
Well...ok :)
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jul 7, 2015 01:00AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
The audio on his youtube video is not cut, it must be your computer [/quote]

Same on my computer. Sound isn't cut but it is extremely low - to low to make out what he's saying. I even turned my system sound up; didn't help. Other YouTube vids sounded fine.

Jim
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 7, 2015 03:07AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/cQ51dj3.gif[/img] [/quote]

Brilliant. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 7, 2015 04:26AM)
When I first opened this up, I actually thought there was a piece of cord stuck to the top of one of the cards - the illusion fooled my eye. Thing is, I can't get it to vanish. The color changer and the mirage card may have some potential in the right situation, though. The coin change looks great, technically. Wish the penny was shiny, though, to better match a Sudsbury penny, given the size and all.
Message: Posted by: petegrimaud (Jul 7, 2015 07:49AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now. [/quote]

The last post submitted by Lloyd Barnes, wondering why been nothing since..? Happy to sell the product but not defend it..?
Message: Posted by: James Conti (Jul 7, 2015 08:08AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, petegrimaud wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now. [/quote]

The last post submitted by Lloyd Barnes, wondering why been nothing since..? Happy to sell the product but not defend it..? [/quote]

Maybe he is just busy creating Volume 2 which will now change the way you pre-order magic. You don't. Lesson learned by all here.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 7, 2015 08:25AM)
I can't recommend these at all. The angles are very finicky as discussed, and sure if you put the effort in and practice enough, there's a chance you might overcome that... but the real problem is they don't look like real cards. Since you know the tech used here, you also know it's made of plastic. It sticks out like a sore thumb and looks like a gimmicked prop instantly.

The coin gimmick was the only one that had a chance of being performable except for the fact that they used a half dollar sized penny. Out of respect for my audience's intelligence and me looking like an idiot, I can't tell them with a straight face I'm holding a penny when it's humongous. Why on earth didn't they just use an English penny or something closer in size to a half dollar? It's stuff like this that just makes this product feel so rushed.

We all know some tricks are hit and miss. This is a a giant miss, and the marketing is offensive as a consumer. Made me absolutely hate this product the way it was hyped and how we were lied to. Returning straight away to E and they likely lost a customer going forward.

The fact that Lloyd and the rest of the E guys vanished from this thread AFTER they got their sales is disturbing.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 7, 2015 08:36AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, petegrimaud wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jun 26, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
So wait... It's being shipped on the 28th of this month? That is a Sunday.

The 28th of NEXT MONTH is a Tuesday.

So this will be shipped out on Sunday this weekend? (Even though the post is closed) or it will be shipped out Tuesday a month from now? I was under the impression that it was this weekend. [/quote]
There was a brief error on the site because of times zones and dates. It's now corrected. These will begin shipping Monday the 30th of this month. Basically, 3 days from now. [/quote]

The last post submitted by Lloyd Barnes, wondering why been nothing since..? Happy to sell the product but not defend it..? [/quote]

Cos he's got his sidekick to do it for him.
:lol:
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 7, 2015 08:37AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
The fact that Lloyd and the rest of the E guys vanished from this thread AFTER they got their sales is disturbing. [/quote]
Maybe they are here really but standing at an angle.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 7, 2015 08:47AM)
Http://r.ebay.com/8loNOj

lol, somebody snatch this up. what a bargain!
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 7, 2015 09:21AM)
Return yours to Ellusionist.

I already got my Return Authorization Number, and will be mailing it today.

You won't get your shipping back, but $29.95 is better than nothing.

And hopefully it will teach them a lesson.

You will be complicit in this fraud by not doing anything about it.

Ellusionist and Lloyd Barnes and Geraint are added to the growing list of those that I will no longer purchase from. And trust me- once someone is added to the list, I truly have NEVER bought anything from them, no matter how tempted I was.

I hope they're happy about all of this!
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 7, 2015 09:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
The fact that Lloyd and the rest of the E guys vanished from this thread AFTER they got their sales is disturbing. [/quote]
Maybe they are here really but standing at an angle. [/quote]

That made me spit out my coffee! So funny!

:)

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 7, 2015 10:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:
Return yours to Ellusionist.

I already got my Return Authorization Number, and will be mailing it today.

You won't get your shipping back, but $29.95 is better than nothing.

And hopefully it will teach them a lesson.

You will be complicit in this fraud by not doing anything about it.

Ellusionist and Lloyd Barnes and Geraint are added to the growing list of those that I will no longer purchase from. And trust me- once someone is added to the list, I truly have NEVER bought anything from them, no matter how tempted I was.

I hope they're happy about all of this! [/quote]

Well said Jack. I hope everyone listens.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 7, 2015 11:02AM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, magicshowprod wrote:
Unfortunately, this is the first thing I have ever bought from Ellusionist. It will probably also be my last. If I was a magic dealer I would never take money from my customers in trade for something as bad as this. Live and learn I guess. May they enjoy the last dollar they will ever get from me. [/quote]

I agree. Think I will post my review on good, bad, garbage forum.
Message: Posted by: fabbmagic (Jul 7, 2015 11:56AM)
No very pratical live!
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 7, 2015 01:50PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
Http://r.ebay.com/8loNOj

lol, somebody snatch this up. what a bargain! [/quote]

HAHA Jeez. $115. I hope no one falls for that. But alas, someone will.
Still we have yet to see any live performances where these cards have fooled someone.
Message: Posted by: Nash (Jul 7, 2015 02:55PM)
One of the biggest draw back of magic that can only be done in a 1-on-1 situation is exactly that.
You are limited. Ever seen an enthusiastic audience grabbed their friends and surround you and ask you to do the same trick for his friends again?
yup.. happens a lot in real life.
Message: Posted by: Nash (Jul 7, 2015 02:55PM)
One of the biggest draw back of magic that can only be done in a 1-on-1 situation is exactly that.
You are limited. Ever seen an enthusiastic audience grabbed their friends and surround you and ask you to do the same trick for his friends again?
yup.. happens a lot in real life.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 7, 2015 03:43PM)
There has been some response to the negativity toward change on the Ellusionist forum - one of the responses is from one whom I believe is a staff member. Here are some words by Christoper Thisse:

"If you put the work into getting the angles right, this is a great set of gimmicks. But [b]people seem to expect real magic[/b] when a product they can't figure out is released. So then they're [b]disappointed with the mundane method and they think it won't fool anyone[/b] - forgetting that they themselves were fooled by it. [b]Happens with pretty much every single release.[/b]

"When it comes down to it - [b]you just have to put the work into getting good at the trick. Some people are too lazy to do that."[/b]

Which does not address the very specific questions that have been raised.

Hmmmm... "Mundane method...?" We were told this was an advance principle that was harnessed into action! :)
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 7, 2015 03:56PM)
So a Penny is 5X its size because I'm lazy?

And a red card looks purple because Im lazy, too?

Oh, and because Im lazy the face of the king looks like it was printed on a sheet of plastic that doesn't resemble a real playing card?

I guess I'm just not ready to change my magic forever. Good to know!
Message: Posted by: Jared (Jul 7, 2015 04:20PM)
I received mine yesterday and like many others was disappointed. The angle restrictions and lighting conditions were too stringent for my style of performing...Perhaps others will feel differently. The method was clever and I can see it being useful for someone who wants to post some visual magic on their website where you can better control the environment. I'm sure that Lloyd is disappointed by these comments but I really don't feel that it's an issue of practice or "putting in the work". Lighting and angles can be very uncooperative in strolling situations despite our best efforts. Lloyd seems like a very creative individual, so I'll be looking forward to seeing his future work.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 7, 2015 04:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Jared wrote:
The angle restrictions and lighting conditions were too stringent for my style of performing...

Lighting and angles can be very uncooperative in strolling situations despite our best efforts.[/quote]

[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jun 24, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
I assume he means lighting conditions, indoors/outdoors, etc.? [/quote]

I'll leave that one for Lloyd to answer. [b]I think it's tungston light that's the one to avoid. Other lighting should be perfect (indoors and out)[/b]


- G [/quote]

This is part of the reason everyone is so upset... I mean now that we see what it is, that statement is simply not correct. What happened to magicians helping magicians?
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 7, 2015 04:44PM)
Maybe its the bit about it changing the face of magic, breaking the internet, and all the other turgid statements put out by people we are supposed to trust that has really upset people, at least they have shown their true colours, so we can ignore their hype in the future, I doubt vol2 will sell out, though the hype machine may try to imply it is a success..
at least 5 people here are now on my ignore list..
the ones supporting this are fooling no one but themselves.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 7, 2015 04:57PM)
Vol 2 will come out....right after the colored smoke cartridges they promised about 3 yrs ago.
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Jul 7, 2015 05:32PM)
Just received my set today. It sure is fun practicing it in the mirror but I have yet to watch the video but it is what I thought it would be. Like Jared said it might be good for some YouTube or video stuff, but angles will be difficult without a doubt. Watching the video now so I'll see what happens.
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jul 7, 2015 07:18PM)
It has been an education to read this thread. Might I suggest that grown-ups cease to frequent magic producers who aim their products at children? It would save many tears, in the long run, and quite a bit of server space.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 7, 2015 07:36PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
There has been some response to the negativity toward change on the Ellusionist forum - one of the responses is from one whom I believe is a staff member. Here are some words by Christoper Thisse:

"... forgetting that they themselves were fooled by it. ..."[/quote]
We were fooled by a very impressive video shot ... no one I performed this for was fooled by it, let alone amazed by it.

Thanks for the info, Chessman.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Jul 7, 2015 08:14PM)
Has anybody had problems getting to the tutorial video? It keeps saying "page not found" after I typed in what it says in the package. Can't watch tutorial at all.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 7, 2015 08:28PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, nattefrost wrote:
Has anybody had problems getting to the tutorial video? It keeps saying "page not found" after I typed in what it says in the package. Can't watch tutorial at all. [/quote]

I had the same thing happen to me, but I'd just entered the url in wrong. Maybe they are updating their instruction tutorial?
Message: Posted by: DVYRCKT (Jul 7, 2015 08:32PM)
Natte,

The link works fine! Just checked it for you, try all caps lock on the final numbers.

Trust me, you are not missing anything on the videos.

- Davey
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 7, 2015 09:52PM)
The instructional video should be changed to give the buyer instructions on how to pursue a full refund.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 7, 2015 09:55PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, pegasus wrote:
The instructional video should be changed to give the buyer instructions on how to pursue a full refund. [/quote]

Ha! Nice.
Message: Posted by: Merenkov (Jul 7, 2015 10:28PM)
Pegasus, you are killing me, lol!
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 8, 2015 06:19AM)
Still don't understand how this sold as many(allegedly) as it did. End of day, this is a color/card change. Tell me again what is so impressive about this over a well executed sleight of hand version? And why would you want to spend so much time figuring out angles for something that will never be 100%, or even close, when, for 3 bux, you can invest your practice time learning this:

http://shop.dananddave.com/erdnase-color-change.html

This is what 'visual' should look like. This is real magic. The CHANGE gimmick, and other products like it are garbage. I don't care who says differently, they are wrong.
Message: Posted by: DaVinci (Jul 8, 2015 07:12AM)
Yesterday I had a chance to watch this at my magi buddies place. Despite the fact that this trick is unusable in real world, I was quite disappointed by the quality of the explanations. Brad should buy a cam with auto focus, since he doesn't seem to be able to focus properly. It was a pain for eyes to watch this. Very poor Ellusionist!
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 8, 2015 07:34AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Calvin826 wrote:
Still don't understand how this sold as many(allegedly) as it did.[/quote]



HYPE + PRE-ORDER = sales
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 08:00AM)
Sorry but I'm kinda confused ... Reading this thread over the past few days has really surprised how people didn't realise this is just "YouTube" magic ! ... Too me it was obvious you need certain lightning conditions and defiantly angle restricted after watching the trailer !!! Why were people disappointed when receiving the effect ? ... Did they expect real magic ? .. Don't get me wrong .. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole .. It's rubbish .. Not worth a penny unless you will perform it to one person at a time and ask them to stand 10 feet back and not move when you do "the change" lol ... Looks like another lesson learnt for some of you guys out there ...
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 8, 2015 08:04AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, pegasus wrote:
The instructional video should be changed to give the buyer instructions on how to pursue a full refund. [/quote]
Funniest post of the thread! :lol:

Nice one pegasus.
Message: Posted by: Lou Cirulli (Jul 8, 2015 08:11AM)
Just got this in the mail. WHAT....A PIECE....OF CRAP!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 08:14AM)
Will people NEVER learn ..... Really have no sympathy for the people that got midsold this ... Very clear from the start of the trailer this was one of the worst "effects" in the last ten years ... Oh .. And it's released by Ellusionist ?!??!? ...
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 8, 2015 08:31AM)
In fairness to purchasers; the creators publicly said its workable. Now; in my mind, workable doesn't suggest you need to be one on one with the person straignt in front of you. Yeah sure you can to an extent manipulate people, but equally, people are unpredictable. I think people probably knew what they were getting, but didn't realise the implimentation of said method, meant that angles and lighting were so problematic.

I only bought it for a video show reel, and assuming everything being said is true; once I am done with it I will a) give it to the kids as I am sure they will love this sort of thing or b) stick the cards in a nice little frame / mount as I think they look pretty cool; even if they arent usable in the real world.

However; just a word of advice. from what I hear; the headphone card doesn't actually fully disapear? which it is clearly supposed to. I am fairly certain that makes the product faulty and on that basis, I am fairly certain that paypal would uphold a request for a full refund via their resolution centre.....Just saying!
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 8, 2015 08:52AM)
When they file their 2015 taxes it better show up there as selling 1,998!

Minus any returns, of course.

But I'll make sure that the IRS knows how many they sold.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 8, 2015 08:58AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Critisizer wrote:
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:
When they file their 2015 taxes it better show up there as selling 1,998!

Minus any returns, of course.

But I'll make sure that the IRS knows how many they sold. [/quote]

Good one! :D [/quote]
Genius!
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 8, 2015 09:12AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, 2012multimagic wrote:
Sorry but I'm kinda confused ... Reading this thread over the past few days has really surprised how people didn't realise this is just "YouTube" magic ! ... Too me it was obvious you need certain lightning conditions and defiantly angle restricted after watching the trailer !!! Why were people disappointed when receiving the effect ? ... Did they expect real magic ? .. Don't get me wrong .. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole .. It's rubbish .. Not worth a penny unless you will perform it to one person at a time and ask them to stand 10 feet back and not move when you do "the change" lol ... Looks like another lesson learnt for some of you guys out there ... [/quote]


No, they probably expected what the advertising body told them it was, and that it adhered to what Lloyd and Geraint said it would do.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 8, 2015 09:21AM)
Exactly, Robmonster.

Lloyd and Geraint came on here talking it up and stating that they used it in the real world, so we believed them.

While I was very disappointed in "Change", I am highly impressed with Lloyd and Geraint's vanish abilities!

I'd probably pay $1,000 to learn how to do that.
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Jul 8, 2015 09:22AM)
Paul- no, the headphone card does not totally disappear, plus I'm having trouble matching the line to the line on the card. They could have done without the black "shadow line" I think and just kept it all white. And thanks for the help on the link guys, I'm going to try it again, even though I'm not missing much from what I hear...
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Jul 8, 2015 09:34AM)
I have seen this happen before. (Hidden Hand, etc), the first page or 2 of the thread the product is the best thing since the invention of the wheel, the creator is involved in the thread, posts things, then the thread does a complete flip flop and the product becomes the worst thing since "Braco's Floating Ball", and you don't hear anything anymore from the creator. It would really help the image of the creator to just return to the thread and address the issues everyone is having, even if they are unsolvable. It would make them seem a little more credible.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 8, 2015 11:38AM)
This was an email to me from Ellusionist:

Hello!

I am sorry you're not happy with it. Lloyd developed this trick in live performances with real audiences. The trick is definitely a worker - though it does have some lighting restrictions and angle considerations.

All it takes is some time working on knowing the angles and managing the audience.

-Christopher Thisse
Ellusionist Customer Support

Still no word if I am going to get my money refunded.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 8, 2015 11:44AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, pegasus wrote:
The instructional video should be changed to give the buyer instructions on how to pursue a full refund. [/quote]
Funniest post of the thread! :lol:

Nice one pegasus. [/quote]

Thank you, Jamie. Although I was being deadly serious. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 8, 2015 11:58AM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
"Lloyd developed this trick in live performances with real audiences. The trick is definitely a worker"
[/quote]

With no video of live performances to support these claims...
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 12:04PM)
.. you guys are pure entertainment alone !!!!! ..... sit back , relax and read on ...
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 12:05PM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
"Lloyd developed this trick in live performances with real audiences. The trick is definitely a worker"
[/quote]

With no video of live performances to support these claims... [/quote]

totally agree ....
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Jul 8, 2015 12:07PM)
This is Ellusionist for you. They have been guilty of false advertising, misleading video's and dishonest business practices. Why do people keep dealing with them?
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 12:13PM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Danny Kazam wrote:
This is Ellusionist for you. They have been guilty of false advertising, misleading video's and dishonest business practices. Why do people keep dealing with them? [/quote]

totally agree !!!... if this was a “normal” brick and mortar retailing trading business, they would probably be shut down ... if this was a known online trader... again would most probably be shut down.. so... why do we as paying customers have to tolerate magic companies continuously breaking the law.. something needs too be done ... lawsuits to be won ... its a disgrace . Just because our art is deemed as “secret” , this certainly doesn’t mean the unlawful trading should be kept a secret too...
Message: Posted by: 2012multimagic (Jul 8, 2015 12:13PM)
Oooshaaaa ooosshaaaa .... sorry , gets me so angry..
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 8, 2015 12:30PM)
Well, defending the indefensible is a pretty daunting task.

[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:

While I was very disappointed in "Change", I am highly impressed with Lloyd and Geraint's vanish abilities!

[/quote]

Regarding the statements out of E the "this is a worker" I really wonder how many effects there are that have the same problems "Change" has that E would also call 'workers'?

Based on the magical knowledge I have accumulated over the years, "Change" would never be considered a worker.

E is really stuck now. They hyped this as game-changing. If they back-track they are admitting willful deceit. So from E this will always be a worker.
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 8, 2015 02:33PM)
How about slipping the gaff card under the cellophane of a cardbox to get rid of the 'reflective' issue
Message: Posted by: neoinwonderland (Jul 8, 2015 02:36PM)
I just want to add that I am part of the dissatisfied customers group. The method is great for youtube-kids but a complete disaster for magicians who actually perform for real people (you could be able to pull it of for 1 individual but even then it is still highly impractical in my opinion).

After seeing all the messages in this post I don't think anybody on the magic Café is still thinking about purchasing change whenever it comes back in stock but if somebody is still thinking about it, I don't think practice is going to solve the problem (especially if you perform for multiple people), save your money and buy something else, you will be glad you did.

When I just started out in magic Ellusionist was a great place to start, I even still perform stigmata on a regular basis and I have a variation on Kaos which I use whenever the time is right. Now I just feel sorry for all the new kids that get a bad experience when buying magic for the first time.

some performance tips:
1. Sandwhich the gimmick in between other cards when doing the change so that you can cover the card immediately after the change to prevent flashing.
2. Stand behind your spectator and look over their shoulder for the "perfect angle"
3. One more time: Just don't buy change and spend your money on something else, something you will actually use.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 8, 2015 02:56PM)
Like I said; if the wire card doesn't disappear as described its faulty. I wouldnt even bother contacting elussionist. If they cared they'd wade in now with support for their customers and a live performance video to back up their claims. I really like lloyds stuff but I do think the !@#$ them then chuck them mantra is not on
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 8, 2015 03:03PM)
For what its worth, the cord section of my ear bud card can vanish all the way. A small victory in a pasteboard of disaster.
Message: Posted by: Jack Straw (Jul 8, 2015 03:05PM)
Ellusionist clearly doesn't care.

Don't you think that they are reading every word that is said here?

And they are silent.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 8, 2015 03:22PM)
Behind the scenes they are not silent...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3BbqFaa1sk
Message: Posted by: neoinwonderland (Jul 8, 2015 03:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
Behind the scenes they are not silent...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3BbqFaa1sk [/quote]
This is definitely the stuff that gives people nightmares.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 8, 2015 03:54PM)
I'm happy to report that they have agreed to refund my money on this purchase.
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 8, 2015 04:08PM)
Customer despair of his purchase of CHANGE.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/jpec2aK.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: sparky269 (Jul 8, 2015 06:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 7, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
So a Penny is 5X its size because I'm lazy?

And a red card looks purple because Im lazy, too?

Oh, and because Im lazy the face of the king looks like it was printed on a sheet of plastic that doesn't resemble a real playing card?

I guess I'm just not ready to change my magic forever. Good to know! [/quote]
Message: Posted by: sparky269 (Jul 8, 2015 06:48PM)
I am embarrassed to say I fell for the artful video hype . . .
Last thing I buy from Ellusionist.
Won't suffer the shame of being fooled twice.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 8, 2015 09:14PM)
I would like to say:

I used the coin change tonight at one of my paid stand up shows for about 50 people.

I used it with my misers dream. I had been pulling half dollars out of the air and then I took one of the half dollars out of the bucket, and the audience saw it changing into a giant penny. I then threw it into the bucket (with a nice loud ping.

Suddenly all of the half dollars in the bucket mended together into one huge penny! (Thanks Bob Solari.)


The audience all started "Whoa!"-ing when the coin changed into a penny in front of them. One of the younger kids shouted "It's a penny!"


Needless to say, it went over VERY well and will stay in my misers dream act. I can't ignore reactions that are that great.
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 8, 2015 09:29PM)
Were they all standing in a straight line? Drunk?
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 8, 2015 09:37PM)
Maddy,

There is no way this happened if it was not from a straight forwarded view. If the kid was sitting in front of you with perfect lighting then perhaps. Everyone else from the sides had no idea what was going on. Please do try to be honest.

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 8, 2015 10:13PM)
Not drunk or standing in a line. They were sitting in a room while I was on stage.


I am being honest RNK. It can be used so that the angle doesn't mattwr
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 8, 2015 11:00PM)
Even from a small stage, its wild that someone could identify the penny as a penny. That penny gaff was fairly dark and none too clear (at least, mine was).
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 8, 2015 11:12PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Even from a small stage, its wild that someone could identify the penny as a penny. That penny gaff was fairly dark and none too clear (at least, mine was). [/quote]


I know! I was shocked too. I assume the color of the coin just instantly made him associate the coin to a penny. He was probably 10 years old or so.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 8, 2015 11:40PM)
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Not drunk or standing in a line. They were sitting in a room while I was on stage.


I am being honest RNK. It can be used so that the angle doesn't mattwr [/quote]

First, I never said you weren't honest. But I will say its interesting how the majority are stating how terrible and unworkable this is but mainly you. Maybe you are the next Copperfield.
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 9, 2015 12:18AM)
Kudos to you Magic.maddy, for being out there, on the front lines, making people happy. If this trick works in your performance than that is great. Maybe most will be disappointed with it, but it's good to hear a dissenting opinion too.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 9, 2015 12:24AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jul 8, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Not drunk or standing in a line. They were sitting in a room while I was on stage.


I am being honest RNK. It can be used so that the angle doesn't mattwr [/quote]

First, I never said you weren't honest. But I will say its interesting how the majority are stating how terrible and unworkable this is but mainly you. Maybe you are the next Copperfield. [/quote]

Sorry that was actually about Altrez's comment.

And perhaps I am. I wouldn't mind being the next multi-billionaire with my own island. You're invited to come and visit once it gets purchased.


As I've said, this has potential and when used PROPERLY, can be quite good. I think using it in misers dream is a perfect example. It is used a a very small part of a large effect.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 9, 2015 12:33AM)
Since you are so confident. Why don't you show us a real live performance using CHANGE during a paid gig for 50 as you stated?
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 02:56AM)
I believe Magic.Maddy without seeing a real live performance.

Based on his extensive Café history he isn't a liar.

He has made the trick work for him after much thought and practice.

Well done Magic.Maddy. Keep magic live.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 9, 2015 04:06AM)
Come on chaps; I don't think its fair to start calling peopl liars becasue they have a different opinion to the majority. I am certainthere are some people who can make this work for them; and that's surely good.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 9, 2015 06:00AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Come on chaps; I don't think its fair to start calling peopl liars becasue they have a different opinion to the majority. I am certainthere are some people who can make this work for them; and that's surely good. [/quote]


This is true Paul. I retract my previous post.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 06:06AM)
Is that an apology or just a retraction?
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 9, 2015 08:20AM)
I apologize for my post. I am glad you found a good use for the coin Maddy. It just did not seem possible to me that it could work as I spent a lot of time going over the same type of routine and it just looked really bad. So perhaps you just have the right touch for the effect.

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 08:46AM)
Good man. A straight apology is much better than a mere retraction (take note RNK).
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 9, 2015 09:05AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
Good man. A straight apology is much better than a mere retraction (take note RNK). [/quote]

I never said anything derogatory towards Maddy.

Simply requesting a video of performing CHANGE for 50 strangers is somehow bashing Maddy?

Hmmm. I did forget how sensitive your are and how most quietly laugh at you needing the attention and notoriety.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 9, 2015 09:36AM)
I apologise wholeheartedly, too............. On behalf of Ellusionist, to all their paying customers, for buying this piece of junk. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 10:10AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, pegasus wrote:
I apologise wholeheartedly, too............. On behalf of Ellusionist, to all their paying customers, for buying this piece of junk. :rotf: [/quote]
Very funny. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 10:11AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Jamie Ferguson wrote:
Good man. A straight apology is much better than a mere retraction (take note RNK). [/quote]

I never said anything derogatory towards Maddy.

Simply requesting a video of performing CHANGE for 50 strangers is somehow bashing Maddy?

Hmmm. I did forget how sensitive your are and how most quietly laugh at you needing the attention and notoriety. [/quote]
Very unfunny. :(
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 9, 2015 11:14AM)
I'm not sure why anyone is apologising, no one has been called a liar, Its just that most people that have bought 'Change' are unhappy due to the hype, and cannot see themselves performing live with the gimmicks.
Maddy keeps trying to prove to us all that the gimmicks are not a waste of money, but so far has failed to convince anyone that we are wrong, so by providing a video of a live performance he could show us all just how effective and life changing these gimmicks truly are, after all they are supposed to change the face of magic, change your life, and break the internet.

Without a live performance we can only assume that some people are wearing emperors new clothes, I guess most would be happy to be proven wrong, but so far most are content with their initial feelings.
To some magic is about simple entertainment, simple tricks that fool no one, but provide a few seconds of entertainment, to others they want effects that truly fool, leaving the specs with a feeling of astonishment, disbelief – or belief that magic may well be real.
Maybe that's why there is some disagreement about these gimmicks amongst a select few.

If ellusionist had not gone hyperbole with the marketing, and simply put these gimmicks out as something akin to a blank deck that can be used in some situations then perhaps there would be less disappointment, but also of course fewer sales.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 11:18AM)
By demanding Magic.Maddy produces a video to prove his point, people are obviously saying don't believe his claim. Therefore they are calling him a liar.

In Scottland we assume someone is innocent unless we can prove they are guilty.

Magic.Maddy I apologise for all the pitch forkers around here.

Keep magic live my friend. :righton:
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Jul 9, 2015 11:22AM)
But if you really are unhappy with 'Change' don't just throw it in your drawer and say 'ah well'
Send it back!
I'm sure the company don't want to get banned from using Pay pal or accepting credit cards and this could happen to them.
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 9, 2015 11:30AM)
We are not demanding a video, but are happy with our belief without further evidence, its a normal human trait.
If Maddy wants to truly convince anyone then his word is simply not enough, if he is happy for others to hold their belief then fine, leave it there.
Message: Posted by: Jamie Ferguson (Jul 9, 2015 11:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, catweazle wrote:

If Maddy wants to truly convince anyone then his word is simply not enough [/quote]
I believe him, so your point is therefore invalid.
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 9, 2015 11:56AM)
Instead of cherry picking, accept the whole point of my posts.
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 9, 2015 11:56AM)
Hey, why only Maddy? It's understandable. But, I hope everyone here demand a live video from Llyod, rather than demanding it from Maddy. What Maddy trying to do is encouraging all the victims to practice practice and perform. While honestly, I'm more agree to encourage the victims to repacked resend and refunded..
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jul 9, 2015 12:18PM)
I didn't purchase Change and I wouldn’t do so just based on the way it was hyped, and as a pre-order no less. And based on the negative reviews thus far I'm pleased that I didn't order this.

That said, I have never known Madison to lie about his magic and I don’t believe he is lying now. How many of you have seen Maddy perform magic? While I've never met him personally nor watched his act in person, I have seen a number of video performances of him and in my opinion he is a very good magician. Real good mechanics and truy excellent presentation skills. And I haven't known him to lie about an effect.

Jim
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jul 9, 2015 12:23PM)
No one has accused him of lying..
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 9, 2015 12:31PM)
Hi guys,

Just a few things.

Please notice I never said someone called me a liar! I was just responded to Altrez's post telling me to quote "be honest." :)

I don't mind people having a different opinion. There will always be some that hate some products while others love them. The only reason for me even telling oft experiences with this is to simply report MY findings. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the trick is revolutionary nor am I trying to persuade people to dig it out of the trash. I just hope that by sharing my experiences, some will feel at least slightly encouraged.


My biggest question is this: What do I gain by claiming I've used this in front of a crowd if I haven't?? I will tell you. I gain absolutely nothing.

As some people have mentioned here (thank you guys) I'm not one to lie about my magic or about my view on magic. I have been known to give bad reviews to products I felt deserved bad reviews. Even when I was given a copy by a creator for free. I always have and always will state my opinions of a product. Good or bad. I will not sugar coat my findings and I will not state something publicly if it isn't true.


Thanks,
Madison
Message: Posted by: TheDirectionalist (Jul 9, 2015 12:37PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:

As some people have mentioned here (thank you guys) I'm not one to lie about my magic or about my view on magic. I have been known to give bad reviews to products I felt deserved bad reviews. Even when I was given a copy by a creator for free. I always have and always will state my opinions of a product. Good or bad. I will not sugar coat my findings and I will not state something publicly if it isn't true.


Thanks,
Madison [/quote]
This is true I've experienced it first hand... Haha! ;)
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 9, 2015 12:39PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, J-Mac wrote:
I didn't purchase Change and I wouldn't do so just based on the way it was hyped, and as a pre-order no less. And based on the negative reviews thus far I'm pleased that I didn't order this.
[/quote]

Yeah. I never pre-order anything. Never have. And hype...well, I was a broadcaster for forty years. I can spot it right away. It ain't really a bad thing. Ellusionist was a bit over-the-top, I have to admit. But I have a great respect for Brad. If I have a question about something, he tells it like it is.

I buy what I need. Not what is hyped. KAOS was the PERFECT CTW effect I was looking for! Brad steered me straight on that one. Plus the Gaff cards. The Ghost Deck was hyped a bit along with its Gaff deck, but I cherish those!

Ellusionist has to market itself. I respect that. However, I, myself, would take a good hard look at marketing techniques vs hype. Make an adjustment or two, y'know? I mean, [i]make[/i] people want to [i]buy[/i] your stuff, but in a more subtle way. I dunno. That's just me.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 12:40PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Hi guys,

Just a few things.

Please notice I never said someone called me a liar! I was just responded to Altrez's post telling me to quote "be honest." :)

I don't mind people having a different opinion. There will always be some that hate some products while others love them. The only reason for me even telling oft experiences with this is to simply report MY findings. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the trick is revolutionary nor am I trying to persuade people to dig it out of the trash. I just hope that by sharing my experiences, some will feel at least slightly encouraged.


My biggest question is this: What do I gain by claiming I've used this in front of a crowd if I haven't?? I will tell you. I gain absolutely nothing.

As some people have mentioned here (thank you guys) I'm not one to lie about my magic or about my view on magic. I have been known to give bad reviews to products I felt deserved bad reviews. Even when I was given a copy by a creator for free. I always have and always will state my opinions of a product. Good or bad. I will not sugar coat my findings and I will not state something publicly if it isn't true.


Thanks,
Madison [/quote]
It is good now. Now please can everyone who said for a video apologises for Maddy is telling the truth. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 9, 2015 01:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 6, 2015, Fin wrote:
Thanks for sharing the video Maddy. I agree, you come across as a lovely guy and the patter helped. I also have to agree with the criticisms about the color, and even in a low quality youtube vid filmed from a distance the card looked way too thick. My other criticism would be that you clearly were checking in your monitor to see that you had the right angles. In real life, of course, you wouldn't have this luxury. How about a more realistic video where you cover your monitor and try the same performance again? This might be a good way to prove your point that the angles can be dealt with once one knows how to handle the gimmick? My worry would be that the moment of the change is SO angle sensitive that one risks it happening prematurely. Add to this the other problems of light, spectators at different heights, angles, and distances, and regardless of your nice presentation, I just can't see how this is going to be truly practical for any more than one spectator in the perfect lighting and angle conditions.. which to my mind, renders it, basically, impractical! [/quote]

The only reason I looked in the monitor was to check to be sure it was red..... Also in the real world I use the line, "Let me know if you see him get any sadder." This prompts them to react when it turns blue which tells me the card is at the appropriate angle. [/quote]

But that proves my point exactly, sir.. You don't know "for sure" exactly when the change happens which is why you have added these safety measures. If you can't tell for sure that it's at the "appropriate angle" without first getting reactions to prove it to you then that's my whole point proven re: my reason for mentioning angle issues & "real world" practicality. What if someone wants to do it without the "let me know" patter choice? Then the moment of the change could happen prematurely.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 9, 2015 01:51PM)
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input.
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 01:55PM)
Fin is finished :lol:
Message: Posted by: Ray Chelt (Jul 9, 2015 02:03PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input. [/quote]

I'm afraid that I can't take the views seriously of someone who, within a week or so of receiving an effect is using it in their stage set. The opinions of this trick are trending to poor but you obviously are more concerned about the next new thing rather than amazing your audience.
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 02:05PM)
It easy to knock others but do nothing your self ray. what can you do?
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 9, 2015 02:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Ray Chelt wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input. [/quote]

I'm afraid that I can't take the views seriously of someone who, within a week or so of receiving an effect is using it in their stage set. The opinions of this trick are trending to poor but you obviously are more concerned about the next new thing rather than amazing your audience. [/quote]

From the sound of it, his audience was amazed, so whats your point? He feels confident in the angles, and aside from that, this is self working, so why not use it in his set right away if that's your cup of tea?
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 02:12PM)
Ray sounds like armchair macican
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 9, 2015 02:14PM)
Lloyd said live performance videos were on their way.. I can't wait!
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 9, 2015 02:23PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Ray Chelt wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input. [/quote]

I'm afraid that I can't take the views seriously of someone who, within a week or so of receiving an effect is using it in their stage set. The opinions of this trick are trending to poor but you obviously are more concerned about the next new thing rather than amazing your audience. [/quote]


Wow quite a hefty statement!

Maybe you didn't read my previous few posts. I didn't use the card change. I used the coin change. I have confidence in the coin change from a stage platform for two reasons.

1) I worked it into my existing routine as a single moment of magic out of many.
2) I present it in such a way that as long as they see the coin changing, the magic is happening.

Essentially they see the silver coin turn copper and then fade back to silver and then back to copper then into the bucket it goes.


I'm sorry Ray, nothing against you, I just take offense to people inferring that I'm a bad performer because I added something to my stage set. (Some VERY SMALL thing.)

Please don't belittle my performance skills in the future. Especially when you have never seen me perform live :)
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 02:25PM)
Ray has been pwned :lol:
Message: Posted by: Ray Chelt (Jul 9, 2015 02:31PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Ray Chelt wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input. [/quote]

I'm afraid that I can't take the views seriously of someone who, within a week or so of receiving an effect is using it in their stage set. The opinions of this trick are trending to poor but you obviously are more concerned about the next new thing rather than amazing your audience. [/quote]


Wow quite a hefty statement!

Maybe you didn't read my previous few posts. I didn't use the card change. I used the coin change. I have confidence in the coin change from a stage platform for two reasons.

1) I worked it into my existing routine as a single moment of magic out of many.
2) I present it in such a way that as long as they see the coin changing, the magic is happening.

Essentially they see the silver coin turn copper and then fade back to silver and then back to copper then into the bucket it goes.


I'm sorry Ray, nothing against you, I just take offense to people inferring that I'm a bad performer because I added something to my stage set. (Some VERY SMALL thing.)

Please don't belittle my performance skills in the future. Especially when you have never seen me perform live :) [/quote]


I wasn't belittling your performance at all....just your judgement.

Please pay attention.
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 02:32PM)
Ray remains pwned :lol:
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 9, 2015 02:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Ray Chelt wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, Magic.Maddy wrote:
Fin,

I use the deck in my left hand as a guide. I know the moment the card gets tilted past the lower right corner of the deck when held perpendicular to the card that the card is now blue.

Thanks for the input. [/quote]

I'm afraid that I can't take the views seriously of someone who, within a week or so of receiving an effect is using it in their stage set. The opinions of this trick are trending to poor but you obviously are more concerned about the next new thing rather than amazing your audience. [/quote]

I can't take the views seriously of someone so judgemental!
Message: Posted by: Raj Suman (Jul 9, 2015 02:34PM)
Ray is now pwned by robsmonster :lol:
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 9, 2015 03:07PM)
Re: videos, one from Maddy or anyone else isn't likely to change my view of the set. The only video I'm interested in is one from Lloyd. I think the gaffs are poor. I also feel that the effects taught on the instructional tutorial were, overall, poor magic (the magic being limited by the gaffs, imo).

I would like to see Lloyd perform live with each (!) of these gaffs in a manner that equates to the statements that were used to market them.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 9, 2015 03:40PM)
Wow, this new item sure has caused a lot of discussion and anger! Here's what I think......if you got this trick and went out and performed it live to an audience, my hat is off to you! You are a much better magician than I. And then, if you got a good reaction......well I have a lot to learn from you! Much respect to you. I didn't have the nerve to perform it after seeing what it was.
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 9, 2015 06:23PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, magicshowprod wrote:
Wow, this new item sure has caused a lot of discussion and anger! Here's what I think......if you got this trick and went out and performed it live to an audience, my hat is off to you! You are a much better magician than I. And then, if you got a good reaction......well I have a lot to learn from you! Much respect to you. I didn't have the nerve to perform it after seeing what it was. [/quote]


Well thank you :)
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 9, 2015 06:44PM)
We have one person so far that is having good results with Change. Is there anyone else reading this forum, anyone at all, that is also having great results with live performances as well? The reason I ask is that I cant find any of my friends or anyone else having luck with it besides Maddy.

It just seems odd to me that I can not find a single person I know who purchased this effect that finds it usable. An honest question for the group.

-Altrez
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Jul 9, 2015 07:22PM)
Guess I'll chime in here now. I also pre-ordered Change and have played with it a little bit for a couple of days. I don't think I could possibly use any of the gimmicks live except for the blurred kings and maybe the jumping angels, and even that's a little shaky. However, I am not going to return the gimmicks because I'll more than likely use a few of the gimmicks for Instagram or YouTube videos :) The changes do look great when playing with them in the sunshine, but look like trash indoors with artificial light. Anyways, this is a fun little toy to play with. Oh, I also performed the blurred king for a friend, but had a little trouble making it blurry, but eventually got it to work and he thought is looked pretty sweet. There's my two-cents, please don't roast me :)
Message: Posted by: emyers99 (Jul 9, 2015 07:43PM)
I had great success with two of the gimmicks today. The color changing card makes a great coaster and I used the coin under the leg of a wobbly table at a restaurant. Both worked like a charm.
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 9, 2015 08:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
I had great success with two of the gimmicks today. The color changing card makes a great coaster and I used the coin under the leg of a wobbly table at a restaurant. Both worked like a charm. [/quote]

I'm glad you finally found the use of the gimmicks in a very creative ways. I'm pretty sure even the creator couldn't even imagine to use the gimmicks like that.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 9, 2015 08:28PM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
I had great success with two of the gimmicks today. The color changing card makes a great coaster and I used the coin under the leg of a wobbly table at a restaurant. Both worked like a charm. [/quote]

Well, I guess that's one way of changing magic forever :)
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 9, 2015 11:58PM)
Where has Mr. Barnes been? Curiously haven't seen him responding on this thread since he sold out of his miracle effect. :stuckinbag:
Message: Posted by: Fire Starter (Jul 10, 2015 01:52AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
I had great success with two of the gimmicks today. The color changing card makes a great coaster and I used the coin under the leg of a wobbly table at a restaurant. Both worked like a charm. [/quote]
lol ,love it.
Message: Posted by: CarlMcCoy (Jul 10, 2015 04:13AM)
[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, tdowell wrote:
Where has Mr. Barnes been? Curiously haven't seen him responding on this thread since he sold out of his miracle effect. :stuckinbag: [/quote]

Devils Advocate:" But even if he did come on here, and no matter what he said or no matter how sincere it was...I'm doubtful that anyone would stop attacking him or the product.

So he's probably thought better of it. Which, let's face it, is something everyone here would probably do too.
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 10, 2015 04:34AM)
There are a couple more iterations on Adam Wilber's instagram page - one of a complete card change, and another with a sharpie printed on, which you then 'pluck' off the card, whilst tilting the card to make the image disappear.

Assuming these new versions are already manufactured and ready to go, I doubt you're going to get any comments from Elusionist about this first batch, as they want to sell the second (and third?) lot.
Message: Posted by: tdowell (Jul 10, 2015 04:34AM)
[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, CarlMcCoy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, tdowell wrote:
Where has Mr. Barnes been? Curiously haven't seen him responding on this thread since he sold out of his miracle effect. :stuckinbag: [/quote]

Devils Advocate:" But even if he did come on here, and no matter what he said or no matter how sincere it was...I'm doubtful that anyone would stop attacking him or the product.

So he's probably thought better of it. Which, let's face it, is something everyone here would probably do too. [/quote]

Yes, very true. I must admit I pre-ordered this as well, opened it, and immediately cringed when I saw what it was.
Message: Posted by: Spartan21 (Jul 10, 2015 05:45AM)
I tried this at a school leaving dinner for 11 year olds on the basis that if I can get it past kids I can get it past adults. The reaction was very underwhelming, I went back to the WOW trick and they loved that. I will be returning mine.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 10, 2015 02:12PM)
[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, robd wrote:
There are a couple more iterations on Adam Wilber's instagram page - one of a complete card change, and another with a sharpie printed on, which you then 'pluck' off the card, whilst tilting the card to make the image disappear.

Assuming these new versions are already manufactured and ready to go, I doubt you're going to get any comments from Elusionist about this first batch, as they want to sell the second (and third?) lot. [/quote]

And I came SOOOOOO close to buying that one also. It looked so great. I have to admit, this experience has really made me a lot more buy-shy. Buying on-line is nice and all, but nothing beats a good magic shop....which don't really exist in Washington anymore unfortunately.
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 14, 2015 04:26AM)
This page is no longer working at Ellusionist:- http://www.ellusionist.com/change.html
Message: Posted by: James Conti (Jul 14, 2015 05:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
This page is no longer working at Ellusionist:- http://www.ellusionist.com/change.html [/quote]

Discontinued?
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 14, 2015 08:29AM)
Just to be fair to Ellusionist, ignore their hype! I've never pre-ordered or been sucked in by this. No. Go to Ellusionist's site and look at their Playing Card lineup. The Ghost Deck. All the gaff versions. The Black Tiger Deck. The Arcane Deck. You won't find these anywhere else!

They have The Messado Rings! The INFORMANT Wallet, Black Sponge Balls, some serious custom coins, and a nice looking Scotch & Soda set. Let the hype roll right off! This is a GREAT place to shop! :)

Doug
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 14, 2015 08:32AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
This page is no longer working at Ellusionist:- http://www.ellusionist.com/change.html [/quote]

Probably damage control. It keeps people from citing ad copy for paypal disputes. Just more deception; however, may not work in their favor. I have never seen such anger sparked over a bad trick before in my life so that should say something about how people feel about it. They also seem to have stopped issuing return authorizations.
Message: Posted by: Tom G (Jul 14, 2015 10:10AM)
Hopefully it opened their eyes a little.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 14, 2015 10:20AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Tom G wrote:
Hopefully it opened their eyes a little. [/quote]

Doubt it. Doesn't seem to effect other companies, i.s Sansmind.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 14, 2015 11:33AM)
[quote]On Jul 9, 2015, altrez wrote:
We have one person so far that is having good results with Change. Is there anyone else reading this forum, anyone at all, that is also having great results with live performances as well? The reason I ask is that I cant find any of my friends or anyone else having luck with it besides Maddy.

It just seems odd to me that I can not find a single person I know who purchased this effect that finds it usable. An honest question for the group.

-Altrez [/quote]

Ask Ellusionist, they told me the positive response was overwhelming.
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 14, 2015 11:39AM)
With respect, they also told us this was the only colour change we'd ever need.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 14, 2015 12:32PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Robmonster wrote:
With respect, they also told us this was the only colour change we'd ever need. [/quote]

It is if you only do one color change. I always advertise that I offer the last change of clothes you will ever need.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 14, 2015 01:19PM)
I just submitted my review on the Ellusionist site. We'll see if they post it. I reviewed it fairly, I think, but only gave it 1 star. There are 12 reviews but didn't recognize any names from the Café'. Out of 1000 sold, 12 reviews ranging from 3 to 5 stars isn't exactly what I'd call overwhelmingly positive, as they stated to me.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 14, 2015 02:47PM)
I copied and pasted my review posts from here into 1 post in the review section on their Forum in response to the "they were disappointed by the simplicity of the method" & "they didn't want to put in the effort re: angles" malarky.

Can't assume honesty in any section of their site, sadly.
Message: Posted by: altrez (Jul 14, 2015 03:48PM)
I am still waiting for the live performances!
Message: Posted by: robd (Jul 14, 2015 03:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Just to be fair to Ellusionist, ignore their hype! [/quote]

So we should be fair to them by ignoring what they say themselves, in their own advertising material, about their own product?
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 14, 2015 04:21PM)
I do not know the people at Ellusionist or what they have or have never done, but my experience is that most magic shops I have been to are staffed by demonstrators and not active performing magicians. If this is the situation with them I can understand why they were smitten by this product. If they are staffed by performing magicians then there is no excuse.
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 14, 2015 04:42PM)
The reviews from the 3rd to 10th July = 12 only and no negative feed back. They tell us they have had overwhelming positive feed back and they are out of stock on the first batch.

I wonder where all the other reviews are,Mmmmm makes you wonder doesn't it !!!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/3VV9h0w.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 15, 2015 12:12AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, weepinwil wrote:
I do not know the people at Ellusionist or what they have or have never done, but my experience is that most magic shops I have been to are staffed by demonstrators and not active performing magicians. If this is the situation with them I can understand why they were smitten by this product. If they are staffed by performing magicians then there is no excuse. [/quote]

I would feel comfortable saying that Brad Christian and Lloyd Barnes are in the latter category enough to be held accountable for their products and marketing.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 15, 2015 01:00AM)
Change arrived today. Arguably the most hyped trick of all time (but certainly this year). Did it live up to the hype? well in truth; no, not really! But it is pretty cool / fun to play with.

A game changer? Well again; no! The reason if nothing else, is simple; you couldn't perform it frequently enough to change any games. You wont for instance be doing the red/blue change at a wedding for a group in my opinion, unless you are very brave. Not an issue per se and not a bad trick because of that, but the hype was so massive and in my opinion, E should have said there are lighting and significant angle restrictions for some cards. If they had; I think people's expectations would be a bit lower and they'd have still sold lots.

In Summary; good for camera, not so great for live performance unless you can control the angles very well. Don't expect this to be something you do walkaround or anywhere you cant carefully control the line of sight.

Once I film it (the reason I bought it) I think my kids will enjoy playing with the cards so I wont lose any sleep over this one, but I have to say; it may be my age but I prefer the sort of marketing that places like rsvp and alakazam do. They tell you about a product honestly and without excessive hype, they answer questions honestly to help you decide if its for you or not and then support you and forums once its live. For me; the hype was just a bit too much and as a consequence people are gunning for E on forums. I sort of don't think you can blame them.
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 15, 2015 01:28AM)
It's is very clear E are selling to the non working magicians

The bedroom magician who likes to film a YouTube video to show to mates

Nothing about this or most of its products are workers

As for the reviews the same people write the positive reviews the
Other ones end up in the bin ( unlike penguin who post both good and bad reviews)

Hopefully the next thing that is hyped by E or Sanns Minds
People will remember
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 15, 2015 01:47AM)
Whilst I can smile about this whole thing; the marketing tactics are in my opinion; unforgivable and if my son had saved his money up to buy this; I'd have an issue with them. I said somewhere else; its like going to a diy shop and buying a drill. Then when you get home, you discover the drill will only drill holes through paper. They didn't lie to you; you got a drill, but they should explain the limitations in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 15, 2015 03:22AM)
I am not sure how to manufacture this type of thing at home. Does anyone here? I was wondering, if this was used hundreds of times in the real-world, how was the original one made?

Not sure, but I have no clue how to make just one that I would use and try out.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 15, 2015 03:57AM)
I think it'd be cheaper / easier to just buy it than it would be to make it. It's not an easy process as far as I am aware and in fariness to E; the quality of the cards isn't really the issue with this trick, it was the agreesive marketing, the clever play on words suggesting there would only be 999 and the main issue that they totally ommitted the fact that you basically need someone to stand at a specific distance from you and to not move left and right / ip and down to perform this, without fear of being caught.
Message: Posted by: ReviewerMaster (Jul 15, 2015 05:53AM)
Bought into the hype. The quality of cards are quite good. But definitely not workable.. only if they had pointed out it's meant for social media promote, then I'd be a much happier customer.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Jul 15, 2015 07:58AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
I am not sure how to manufacture this type of thing at home. Does anyone here? I was wondering, if this was used hundreds of times in the real-world, how was the original one made?

Not sure, but I have no clue how to make just one that I would use and try out.

Bobby [/quote]

That was my point. They could have explained the principle and sold the gimmicks. Most everyone would have been happy, but they would have sold a lot less of them. There was no real reason to not disclose the technique except as a marketing ploy.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 15, 2015 08:52AM)
The whole debacle has caused me to take Ellusion off of my buying list. And I won't be doing anymore preordering. I had to sit on my buying hand this morning after learning about some new card magic that is coming out.

Kind of a shame this whole thing had to happen.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 15, 2015 09:26AM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, magicshowprod wrote:
The whole debacle has caused me to take Ellusion off of my buying list. And I won't be doing anymore preordering. I had to sit on my buying hand this morning after learning about some new card magic that is coming out.

Kind of a shame this whole thing had to happen. [/quote]

It is a shame. But this was not an isolated incident. This happens a lot in magic. We as buyers have to learn how to turn our compulsive obsessive switch off, lol.
Message: Posted by: Spartan21 (Jul 15, 2015 10:10AM)
Has anyone managed to get their postage refunded? Ellusionist are only willing to repay the cost and wouldn't even compensate with a free download.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 15, 2015 10:18AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, robd wrote:
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Just to be fair to Ellusionist, ignore their hype! [/quote]

So we should be fair to them by ignoring what they say themselves, in their own advertising material, about their own product? [/quote]

It really makes me sick. I get hyped all the time in my email. I just trash 'em. All of 'em. I know what I want when I want it. Ellusionist really stepped on their d*** this time!

Doug
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 15, 2015 10:51AM)
The reviews from the 3rd to 10th July = 12 only and no negative feed back. They tell us they have had overwhelming positive feed back and they are out of stock on the first batch.

I wonder where all the other reviews are,Mmmmm makes you wonder doesn't it...Could there be a reason why they are not showing us all the reviews considering they sold out on the first run,over 1000 sold that = only 12 reviews and they range from 3 stars to 5 stars and not one "BAD REVIEW" and yet magiccafe members are 95% or more negative reviews.Is it us on the Café that are wrong, or is someone telling us lies. Mmmmm I wonder !!!


[img]http://i.imgur.com/r6BdmAn.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 15, 2015 03:37PM)
My question regarding how to make them was not so I could make it myself. I see no sense in using this as a gimmick for a real magic presentation. I think as a kid's item, it might be fun as a puzzle, but I was not looking for a puzzle, rather a game-changer of an effect.

The question was how in the world does someone make up a prototype and use it hundreds of times in the real world? What does hundreds of times mean? Go to a club and show everybody? I am in a small market, but I am top of mind when it comes to finding a magician in my area. I am the go-to guy. Having said that, I do dozens of shows a year, which makes it difficult to do anything hundreds of times in the real world.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 15, 2015 06:40PM)
Live demo..... still waiting..... Lloyd?.... LLOYD? :(
Message: Posted by: Bill08 (Jul 15, 2015 11:58PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
I was wondering, if this was used hundreds of times in the real-world, how was the original one made?


Bobby [/quote]

Good point. Probably would cost the same to produce 1 as it would to produce 100
Message: Posted by: MichaelJae (Jul 16, 2015 10:11AM)
Did someone ask for a live demo? Here's one.

https://youtu.be/upj_Uh4ZKgM
Message: Posted by: Galileo (Jul 16, 2015 12:15PM)
Ellusionist constantly shows no concern about the practicality of the products it sells, or care for the customers it caters to. I'm hoping others will stop buying from them and encouraging this sort of irresponsible behavior.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 16, 2015 12:44PM)
I saw some people wondering if it was still for sale since the original page no longer works. It seems like they changed the page name, not sure if they changed the ad copy.

http://www.ellusionist.com/change-by-lloyd-barnes.html

I see that http://www.ellusionist.com/change.html redirects to the new page, not sure if it always did.

Still only 12 reviews - I guess no one wants to review it. :rotf:
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 16, 2015 08:38PM)
[quote]On Jul 16, 2015, MichaelJae wrote:
Did someone ask for a live demo? Here's one.

https://youtu.be/upj_Uh4ZKgM [/quote]
Michael,

Thanks for the live demo, but after watching it, I feel like someone did stick it to me.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Griflex (Jul 18, 2015 11:40AM)
I bought this on a pre-order...I live in the UK and had to pay the high shipping costs...Ellusionist had not shipped my item on the Wednesday after the date of release so I cancelled my order as I had changed my mind after the early bad reviews on here...Ellusionist said they could not cancel my order due to the volume of orders of this effect as it would take too long to process and they would have to ship it to me in the UK and when I receive it ship it back to them at my cost to then get my refund!!!!....This I told them was totally unacceptable with regards to distance selling laws and I insisted on my full refund...I also filed a dispute with Paypal siting what I have just said and within 2 hours got my full refund.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 18, 2015 11:43AM)
I came here because the trick is sold out at Ellusionist. Don't want to read the whole thread though, so sorry if this has already been asked.

Any idea if they are going to get it back in stock again or not? Looks really stunning!
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 18, 2015 11:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, writeall wrote:
I came here because the trick is sold out at Ellusionist. Don't want to read the whole thread though, so sorry if this has already been asked.

Any idea if they are going to get it back in stock again or not? Looks really stunning! [/quote]

You really should read through the thread if you plan on purchasing it in this instance.....
Message: Posted by: Griflex (Jul 18, 2015 11:59AM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, writeall wrote:
I came here because the trick is sold out at Ellusionist. Don't want to read the whole thread though, so sorry if this has already been asked.

Any idea if they are going to get it back in stock again or not? Looks really stunning! [/quote]

You should read the whole thread as it has saved me my hard earned and a lesson learnt in pre-order.... never again!
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 18, 2015 12:04PM)
I figure I'd need two to do a color change that makes it appear two cards switch places, but I'm not sure if they are limiting sales or when they will have the product in again.

(Read the first couple pages.) Looks like this was a one time pre-order? So I'm stuck buying used only? I wonder why they still have the ad page up at Ellusionist then. :(
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 18, 2015 12:20PM)
As much as I dislike the cards as effects, they are very tough, so buying used you won't have to really worry about getting worn gimmicks, or the like.
Message: Posted by: daniltan (Jul 18, 2015 12:28PM)
[quote]On Jul 19, 2015, writeall wrote:
I figure I'd need two to do a color change that makes it appear two cards switch places, but I'm not sure if they are limiting sales or when they will have the product in again.

(Read the first couple pages.) Looks like this was a one time pre-order? So I'm stuck buying used only? I wonder why they still have the ad page up at Ellusionist then. :( [/quote]

Read more. Even if the you in the past had made the pre-order, you might see him regretting that. Buying a used one? Maybe there about 986 pieces waiting to be sold out there.

[quote]On Jul 10, 2015, emyers99 wrote:
I had great success with two of the gimmicks today. The color changing card makes a great coaster and I used the coin under the leg of a wobbly table at a restaurant. Both worked like a charm. [/quote]

Ah, they're about 985 pieces approximately.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 18, 2015 12:34PM)
Buyer's remorse. One of the most common themes in magic.
Message: Posted by: Griflex (Jul 18, 2015 12:47PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, daniltan wrote:

Maybe there about 986 pieces waiting to be sold out there.

[/quote]

They are for sale on "Magic week" all ready LOL

FOR SALE:
Change by Lloyd Barnes Brand New (Bought 2 Sets from Ellusionist. Check it Out! ) £19
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 18, 2015 01:02PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, writeall wrote:
Buyer's remorse. One of the most common themes in magic. [/quote]

Over-hyped products and dubious pre-orders. Two of the most common themes in magic today.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Griflex (Jul 18, 2015 01:13PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, writeall wrote:
Buyer's remorse. One of the most common themes in magic. [/quote]

Over-hyped products and dubious pre-orders. Two of the most common themes in magic today.

Doug [/quote]

You will not get me pre-ordering again that's for sure...over the past 20 odd years of buying and performing magic I was happy with my magic tricks as I'm sure most of us receive effects and face the odd time disappointment but now this "pre-order craze" has come along and the majority of effects are getting very over hyped to induce our hard earned :(
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 18, 2015 04:30PM)
Upon receiving "Change"

[img]http://cdn.gagbay.com/2013/08/epic_facepalm-337095.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: Danny Kazam (Jul 19, 2015 12:26AM)
I used to wonder how Ellusionist always maintained an A+ BBB rating despite many unresolved complaints, which eventually were wiped away. Don't trust BBB ratings.
https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9p1MKtVjxcAgSmU7olQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBza2VqYWU4BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMTQ-?p=bbb+exposed&vid=ad1c2b78cea9a61d9df12c1c5c24b745&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN.J7%252fICYhb2nQxYhT8wocuHQ%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D230%26w%3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvgXLc1cGhGU&tit=BBB+%3D+Bad+for+Businss+Bureau%3A+Atty+Genrl+exposes+the+scam&c=13&h=230&w=300&l=453&sigr=11b8r75pt&sigt=11pm9qft3&sigi=12mqs3deg&age=1290378364&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=yfp-hrmob-715&tt=b
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 19, 2015 05:30AM)
Finally read a bit more of this thread...

You know what? I've got too many tricks already, the vast majority of which I don't perform anyhow.

I wonder if there is a worthwhile kickstarter or charity that accepts "money I would have wasted because of a stupid impulse?"
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 19, 2015 10:47AM)
It is clear that E can't be trusted with both the trailers and the reviews as unless you give then a 5 stars , you review never see's the light of day

If you want to write a review that can't be deleted see this site

http://www.resellerratings.com/store/survey/Ellusionist
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 19, 2015 05:49PM)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/GS0StE3.gif[/img]
Message: Posted by: MR Effecto (Jul 20, 2015 08:26AM)
I have only ever ordered from them a few times. 3 times that's all. The 1st time was pure smoke. Joke to me for sure. Sold mine. Made to much noise. A down loade effect from the same guy that made this. Never did get it to work on my phone. Thay were not no help at all. The one thing that lived up to there add I got was phyo. Love it.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jul 20, 2015 03:23PM)
Lloyd will be posting Live performances here on Wednesday for you.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 20, 2015 03:41PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
Lloyd will be posting Live performances here on Wednesday for you. [/quote]

That would be nice. My only concern is since there has been so much dissatisfaction with CHANGE and claimed dishonesty with the ad by majority of the buyers, will the live video performances be stooged. There will be no way of us knowing the truth to this. When you MEGA-HYPE a product such as this and it obviously does not live up to the hype, the ones who were responsible will obviously do anything to gain credibility back.

Stooging live performances would be rather easy to do. But I hope this is not the route they go.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jul 20, 2015 03:51PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jul 20, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
Lloyd will be posting Live performances here on Wednesday for you. [/quote]

That would be nice. My only concern is since there has been so much dissatisfaction with CHANGE and claimed dishonesty with the ad by majority of the buyers, will the live video performances be stooged. There will be no way of us knowing the truth to this. When you MEGA-HYPE a product such as this and it obviously does not live up to the hype, the ones who were responsible will obviously do anything to gain credibility back.

Stooging live performances would be rather easy to do. But I hope this is not the route they go. [/quote]


Great question and good concern. I think the majority of crowds plays a factor on the Café. A good 70% of people jumping in to complain here are just here on this thread to add fuel to the fire and don't own change. Then some people were dissatisfied before they'd even got their package because a few people didn't like it. Then it snowballed.

The ones that have posted on this thread to say they liked it have been called liars.

It probably doesn't help that Lloyd and Myself have been in Italy, with some assuming that we've just ignored you, rather than us just being busy professionals.

Which brings me on to this ...... The LIVE performances were shot in Italy. On some laymen, stewards at FISM, magicians we'd just met etc etc. We don't stooge performances. We fly magicians all over the world to capture great lives in London, NYC, San Fran etc etc.

As it happens we had a camera and two packets of CHANGE, so we spent a few hours performing for some magicians we met, which led into performing for some stewards who were watching from a far, which led into laymen who were walking (or cycling past) stopping to enjoy some magic too.

The short answer is. NO. We don't stooge lives, never will and certainly wouldn't stooge them based on some negative feedback.

Change is being used for people's showreels, youtube accounts, social media marketing and in their shows. The people that saw AN application for it, just went off an did it. Whether it was performing with it, or just using it to market themselves with incredible visuals if they didn't feel comfortable performing it.

Great question though!

- G.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 20, 2015 04:45PM)
Geraint, that's a load of crap. But you have no rational retreat. Funny that the instructional DVD had a good deal of sub-par magic...but this was the best Ellusionist could put out for these. Now you're essentially admitting that there is no way on god's green earth that they are going to change magic (forever), but they might get some related uses for it. Unreal.

[quote]
A good 70% of people jumping in to complain here are just here on this thread to add fuel to the fire and don't own change.
[/quote]

Tell us how you know this. Don't just assert it - show it.

[quote]
Then some people were dissatisfied before they'd even got their package because a few people didn't like it.
[/quote]

Really? There were surely certain people who saw the first reviews who wondered about what they would be getting, but I can't believe you're suggesting that people are unable to make a decision for themselves about the usefulness of change. Again, you have nothing to say except to deflect blame to others.

[quote]
Then it snowballed.
[/quote]

With good reason! It stinks, and E's marketing stank even more.

[quote]
The ones that have posted on this thread to say they liked it have been called liars.
[/quote]

Sadly, there has been some of that...on both sides...but that doesn't excuse E, does it? You're trying to deflect blame - again - its not Ellusionists fault! Its the fault of the buyers! What a load!

[quote]
It probably doesn't help that Lloyd and Myself have been in Italy, with some assuming that we've just ignored you, rather than us just being busy professionals.
[/quote]

LOL! So, you guys *haven't* ignored this topic? There is no internet in Italy? Lloyd was just too busy to post something? What could he possibly say?

Ellusionist hurt their reputation and those who are connected with marketing Change.
Message: Posted by: Jupiter47 (Jul 20, 2015 07:48PM)
It seems as though Ellusionist have added another 1000 units for pre order - in conjunction with the SWE deck
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 20, 2015 09:01PM)
[quote]
A good 70% of people jumping in to complain here are just here on this thread to add fuel to the fire and don't own change.
[/quote]

As I previously stated, I question this, but even if it were true, what would it change? There were lots of people who commeted in this topic (and 2 others) that didn't like "Change". That's business - a product comes out, followed by reviews, and people buy more or buy less based on those reviews. "Change" is getting poor marks from its owners. There are non-owners commenting (this is a chat forum, after all), but many of these comments have been about pre-ordering, Ellusionists (inconsistent) ethics, etc...

But while some people have gone into great and specific detail regarding their negative feelings toward "Change," you seem more intent on blaming others (just as one of the staff at Ellusionist forums did...I guess the brain trust at E have decided that this will be their stock answer: blame others). Lloyd has yet to challenge any of the reviews, but this is not surprising. Once again, what can he possibly say?
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Jul 20, 2015 09:34PM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuImhGEAsnk

here are the live performances...
Message: Posted by: Magic.Maddy (Jul 20, 2015 10:19PM)
Yay. Good for you Lloyd :) I'm still loving mine.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 20, 2015 11:03PM)
I was excited when I saw the live video performances, so I busted out my Change, and I am even more disappointed. I have to hold my gimmicked color-changing card at about a 45-degree angle to get a somewhat decent-looking red back. I sat and worked on it with different lighting conditions, different angles, and it just left me saddened. I already accepted the fact that I was going to eat this $35 (cost plus shipping), but the live performances gave me renewed hope, only to see them dashed.

I am not going to give up, but I just feel like a fool for buying into the hype.

It's a shame the giant penny wasn't an English penny.

Like I said before, good thinking, but just poor execution.

Bobby

p.s. I don't know Lloyd, but I think he is a stand-up guy for addressing the issue head-on in the video. Just wish my Change actually worked as good as advertised or I could manipulate it to be as good as advertised.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 20, 2015 11:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2015, TuneHV wrote:
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuImhGEAsnk

here are the live performances... [/quote]

Are there going to be performances of the other effects, or just the color change?
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jul 21, 2015 04:35AM)
[quote]On Jul 20, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]
A good 70% of people jumping in to complain here are just here on this thread to add fuel to the fire and don't own change.
[/quote]

As I previously stated, I question this, but even if it were true, what would it change? There were lots of people who commeted in this topic (and 2 others) that didn't like "Change". That's business - a product comes out, followed by reviews, and people buy more or buy less based on those reviews. "Change" is getting poor marks from its owners. There are non-owners commenting (this is a chat forum, after all), but many of these comments have been about pre-ordering, Ellusionists (inconsistent) ethics, etc...

But while some people have gone into great and specific detail regarding their negative feelings toward "Change," you seem more intent on blaming others (just as one of the staff at Ellusionist forums did...I guess the brain trust at E have decided that this will be their stock answer: blame others). Lloyd has yet to challenge any of the reviews, but this is not surprising. Once again, what can he possibly say? [/quote]

Chessman, you seem to be intent on picking apart every line from my response, and then responding to your own commentary on it.

You didn't like it on Day 1. You asked for a refund on Day 1. We granted you that refund on Day 1... but instead, you've spent the last 2 weeks !@#$%ing about a trick that you should of sent back to the team to get your money back on? That's great customer service...... If I buy a pair of jeans that I didn't feel were blue-enough, and I took them back, and the company gave me a refund. I wouldn't harbour any animosity to waste 2 weeks of my time moaning about it. Where you're concerned, the CS team at E have done their best with you. If you're still not pleased after being offered the opportunity to get your money back, then there is nothing more we can do.
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jul 21, 2015 05:14AM)
Woah... so I go to FISM in Italy and all hell breaks loose on here. I haven't been through every post but the general consensus seems to be that people don't think this can be done live. As promised I got some time to film some live street performances with a range of different people (including some that couldn't speak English) to show you all just how practical and fun to perform this is.

Again, this is simply one of those tricks where you have to give more effort but if you want to elevate your magic, then sometimes you have to. For me, I'm not a magician that likes to let my prop do the work. I like to apply myself 100% to my magic. Not saying that anybody here doesn't already but I'm hoping that the proof in the live performances here urges people to go out and do this.

The true reality is that even though this has all gone a bit mental here we've only had very small number of complaints to us at Ellusionist, mostly all of them from the Café. So although it's only a small minority, it has been a very vocal one here at the Café and I didn't want to sit back and ignore anyone.

So, here's the video with live performances and also some answers to a few questions we've had. No doubt that there's going to be more negativity here but that's the nature Café unfortunately. I've been out and filmed [b]real live performances[/b] of this to show you guys exactly what this plays like in the real world. I can't do anymore than that. (unless I go do your gigs for you.)

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuImhGEAsnk[/url]

Luckily for the people that were willing to make their own minds up to go out and perform this, this witch hunt hasn't detoured them. And thus, the large majority have enjoyed Change and I want to say thank you the hundreds of people that have emailed, messaged, posted, tagged etc through every social platform they can contact me on. A simple look through any of my public accounts will show this.

I've noticed that Chessman is at the helm of this thread making the majority of the posts. I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of wanting to [i]"stop others making the same mistake that you did"[/i], however there comes a point where you were one of our only customers to ask for a refunded (which we did immediately) then you spent the next two weeks continually making post after post on the Café ripping apart anything to do with Change, there comes a point where it goes from trying to warn some customers to becoming an out an out troll. Nothing is going to change your mind on this topic, everyone on this entire thread can see that, however and as arrogant as this sound, you are the minority. I see that others have posted their concerns too, that is [b]great[/b]! Honest opinions are always welcomed but when it's the same person tirelessly on the attack it all goes a bit stale. I 100% stand behind my work on Change and am incredibly proud of how it turned out and the general response to it from around the world, I do though try to make time for as many people as possible and I feel that you feel incredibly wronged by myself and Ellusionist so I'd love to take some time to talk with you personally to see if there's a way to right this or at least find some common ground. Magic should be a brotherhood and the thought of anyone feeling so angry towards one and other really gets to me.

I spend most of my time travelling for work so as always I'm incredibly busy but I will try and get back on here at some point. Please though, I'm much easier to contact directly through email, Facebook or Skype so if you have any genuine concerns or questions, please feel free to get in touch.


Cheers,
Lloyd
Message: Posted by: Fatgumbo (Jul 21, 2015 05:38AM)
I think Cheeseman has nothing better to do in his spare time.
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Jul 21, 2015 06:04AM)
Maybe a few of us do!
I thank Chessman for saving me some money and hassle.
He does seem angry but should a refund [minus postage] be 'hush money'
I hope the company does things differently for it's next release even if it's only a pretty deck of cards!
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 21, 2015 06:18AM)
Why should the fact that a refund was offered change his opinion on the product?
Message: Posted by: Lloyd Barnes (Jul 21, 2015 06:21AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Markymark wrote:
Maybe a few of us do!
I thank Chessman for saving me some money and hassle.
He does seem angry but should a refund [minus postage] be 'hush money'
I hope the company does things differently for it's next release even if it's only a pretty deck of cards! [/quote]
Absolutely not "hush money". We encourage people to be open, honest and vocal about our products but there is a difference between posting your thoughts and going on a fortnight long tireless campaign against something. This is why I'd rather speak with him personally to try and find any sort of common ground or resolution.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 21, 2015 06:34AM)
This is from the packaging:

Change
5 Visual Miracles
That Will Change Your Life

Indeed, my life has been changed, but not for the better. Wallet is lighter with nothing to show for it.

I continue to pull out the gimmicks and practice, but all for naught. I cannot get the red to look good, though the blue jumps out perfectly.

The gimmick is so touchy, there is no way to know what the spectator is seeing. What I am seeing looks terrible with all of my handlings.



Bobby
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 06:40AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Markymark wrote:
Maybe a few of us do!
I thank Chessman for saving me some money and hassle.
He does seem angry but should a refund [minus postage] be 'hush money'
I hope the company does things differently for it's next release even if it's only a pretty deck of cards! [/quote]
Absolutely not "hush money". We encourage people to be open, honest and vocal about our products but there is a difference between posting your thoughts and going on a fortnight long tireless campaign against something. This is why I'd rather speak with him personally to try and find any sort of common ground or resolution. [/quote]

There is a difference. But if you guys would have come on here to address the comments in a timely manner there may have been not such an overwhelming uprising. Sorry Lloyd, but you can't say you were to busy to come on here and take 5 minutes to address these comments. Your "To Busy" remark doesn't sit well. MANY of us are to busy but find time. I have a full time job, perform many gigs a year and raise three boys. But I can find 5 minutes here and there. And you trying to say that a minority was dissatisfied? There are not many products here on the café that get such bad reviews as CHANGE did.

Now, maybe you have a small valid point about working with the gimmick. That is true with a lot of gimmicks. But an overwhelming majority here say that even the gimmicks are poorly made. Now, that's a different manner.

I didn't want to post my thoughts but MAN UP and quit trying to give excuses of why you couldn't come on here and face the music. That's a cop out IMO. Excuses are like AssH&^les, everyone has one and they all stink.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 06:43AM)
Sorry Lloyd for my previous post, you seem to be a good person. But when people make excuses rather than Man Up- that ticks me off.
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Jul 21, 2015 06:49AM)
I did not purchase this so although I can not comment on its practicality I know how it works as do most adults. It actually seems like a pretty cute idea but not for me.
I am going to say I don't think "grown ups" should be so angry about the hype machine. It is a part of life and for better or worse business.
I am afraid to say if you were expecting a product that would "change" your life and it didn't, then you learned a fairly inexpensive lesson.
I feel a little worse for young people who may live and die by the "hype machine" who may be spending their own or their parents limited resources to learn these lessons about just how many "life changing" products are out there
Develop a filter
At any rate, moving on
Message: Posted by: CarlMcCoy (Jul 21, 2015 07:12AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, RNK wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Markymark wrote:
Maybe a few of us do!
I thank Chessman for saving me some money and hassle.
He does seem angry but should a refund [minus postage] be 'hush money'
I hope the company does things differently for it's next release even if it's only a pretty deck of cards! [/quote]
Absolutely not "hush money". We encourage people to be open, honest and vocal about our products but there is a difference between posting your thoughts and going on a fortnight long tireless campaign against something. This is why I'd rather speak with him personally to try and find any sort of common ground or resolution. [/quote]

There is a difference. But if you guys would have come on here to address the comments in a timely manner there may have been not such an overwhelming uprising. Sorry Lloyd, but you can't say you were to busy to come on here and take 5 minutes to address these comments. Your "To Busy" remark doesn't sit well. MANY of us are to busy but find time. I have a full time job, perform many gigs a year and raise three boys. But I can find 5 minutes here and there. And you trying to say that a minority was dissatisfied? There are not many products here on the café that get such bad reviews as CHANGE did.

Now, maybe you have a small valid point about working with the gimmick. That is true with a lot of gimmicks. But an overwhelming majority here say that even the gimmicks are poorly made. Now, that's a different manner.

I didn't want to post my thoughts but MAN UP and quit trying to give excuses of why you couldn't come on here and face the music. That's a cop out IMO. Excuses are like AssH&^les, everyone has one and they all stink. [/quote]


It could be argued that even if one has 5 mins / 10 mins / 20 mins to come on here - be it from abroad or from at home - to read through and reply, that doesn't necessarily mean that that it's 'enough' time to read through everything and give a proper and thoughtful answer to heavy criticism. Does it?

No, it doesn't.

Not having a bash RNK, just saying it as I see it. I was pretty disappointed with Change when I received my gimmicks, especially as a hobbyist magician. I was also not completely convinced by the instructional videos, mostly because I had the same reservations about the gimmicks as others have had. I haven't had time to view the live performances just posted, as, ironically, I'm too busy with work. But I'll check them out at some point. However, I'm going to keep mine and see what comes of them in time as they did spark the odd idea in the back of my mind.

As to remarks about negative reviews and majority feeling on here, I find it funny that so many posters on The Café, seem to be under the illusion that this place is the be all and end all of magic debate (again, not singling you out RNK, just an observation from over the years). I reckon as many people avoid this place like the plague, as come on here to post. And it's mostly because of all the back-biting and crusading that goes on.

At the end of the day, if one can get his/her money back if not satisfied, then I fail to see what else there is to complain about.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 07:22AM)
Really CarlMcCoy? You really think that Lloyd and Geraint were not following from the beginning what was being posted here? Especially the Hype Lloyd was presenting about CHANGE. Absolutely no way Lloyd was not reading from the beginning what was being posted. To believe that is just being naïve. I'm not ripping on you CarlMcCoy I am looking at this with common sense about a creator and his/her product. A creator will obviously keep up with what was being posted about his/her creation especially when it's one that was supposed to be all you will ever need!
Message: Posted by: Calvin826 (Jul 21, 2015 08:33AM)
Few things:

1. Magicians Helping Magicians- that's why Chessman has been all over this. It's a good(great!) thing, and I appreciate his posting.

2. Live performance doesn't show the other effects that were promoted by the original video. It's already been said how the ear bud effect is impractical, and the promo vid was edited to hide this fact. Also the ear bud gimmick looks awful(according to several posters)

3. Respectfully, to me, the live performances show a sub-par trick performed somewhat adequately. Weird, claw like grip on the card, too-fast movement after the change. Can this really be adapted to a larger routine? Maybe so, but wouldn't an old fashioned, low-tech color change work better?
Message: Posted by: CarlMcCoy (Jul 21, 2015 08:45AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, RNK wrote:
Really CarlMcCoy? You really think that Lloyd and Geraint were not following from the beginning what was being posted here? Especially the Hype Lloyd was presenting about CHANGE. Absolutely no way Lloyd was not reading from the beginning what was being posted. To believe that is just being naïve. I'm not ripping on you CarlMcCoy I am looking at this with common sense about a creator and his/her product. A creator will obviously keep up with what was being posted about his/her creation especially when it's one that was supposed to be all you will ever need! [/quote]

Didn't say they weren't following. I said "It could be argued that even if one has 5 mins / 10 mins / 20 mins to come on here - be it from abroad or from at home - to read through and reply, that doesn't necessarily mean that that it's 'enough' time to read through everything and give a proper and thoughtful answer to heavy criticism"

Even if they were following, every day, still doesn't mean anything, as even when they did come on and answer...they just got more bashing. So earlier, perhaps they thought to just wait until they had sufficient time and or the live performances that everyone was wanting...maybe? More than likely though, they weren't following this thread keenly whilst away doing something more interesting than watching themselves being torn apart on an internet forum. As an example, I've just got back from a week in France with my family. Had my iPhone the whole time. Never turned it on once...not to check emails, not to check voicemails and certainly not to come on this place.

True, I'm not a creator with a product out...but so what? This forum really thinks a lot of itself that people continually expect magic creators to be at their beck and call.

Again, for clarity, not attacking you...merely responding.

But overall...no, I do not believe I'm being naive suggesting that maybe they both had better things to do with their time than come on this forum.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 21, 2015 08:50AM)
@Lloyd. I didn't realise FISM ran from June 26 to July 21. :wow:
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 08:52AM)
I do respect your opinion CarlMcCoy. IMHO, of course they were checking this thread and easily could have responded earlier. That's a no-brainer IMO. After all the HYPE they spread to totally ignore this thread, sorry, can't see it.
Message: Posted by: CarlMcCoy (Jul 21, 2015 09:36AM)
Yes, well I respect your opinion as well mate. And you may very well be right. But even if you are, I still don't see it as a reason for them to jump into a discussion until they feel fit and ready to...or can be bothered. Christ...if I jumped on every topic and railroaded thread on this place, I'd have to sell my house and move in here full time.

Have just watched the live performance video. Have to say it changes my mind somewhat on my initial impression of the gimmicks. In all honesty, I think the major thing that Ellusionist got wrong, was not filling the download and trailer with loads of live stuff, as it really shows it working.

Still don't think it's for me really, but maybe I'll even give it a go sometime...if I can stop drinking myself into an early grave long enough to actually be able to find my gimmicks...
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jul 21, 2015 11:29AM)
I think that Lloyd's comment to Chessman about keeping up his complaining so long can be directly connected to Lloyd's absence from this thread for so long. If the concerns had been addressed promptly would Chessman have kept it up for so long? Can't know for sure, but I think a lot of it could have been nipped way back at the start if Lloyd, Geraint, or someone from Ellusionist would have at least tried to address the concerns back at the beginning.

Jim
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Jul 21, 2015 12:01PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, J-Mac wrote:
I think a lot of it could have been nipped way back at the start if Lloyd, Geraint, or someone from Ellusionist would have at least tried to address the concerns back at the beginning.

Jim [/quote]
Someone, anyone.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 21, 2015 12:04PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:

The gimmick is so touchy, there is no way to know what the spectator is seeing. What I am seeing looks terrible with all of my handlings.

[/quote]


Have you tried the suggestion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuImhGEAsnk&t=5m49s ?

I'm presuming you have, just figured it was worth pointing out.
Message: Posted by: GeraintClarke (Jul 21, 2015 12:56PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, CarlMcCoy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, RNK wrote:
Really CarlMcCoy? You really think that Lloyd and Geraint were not following from the beginning what was being posted here? Especially the Hype Lloyd was presenting about CHANGE. Absolutely no way Lloyd was not reading from the beginning what was being posted. To believe that is just being naïve. I'm not ripping on you CarlMcCoy I am looking at this with common sense about a creator and his/her product. A creator will obviously keep up with what was being posted about his/her creation especially when it's one that was supposed to be all you will ever need! [/quote]

Didn't say they weren't following. I said "It could be argued that even if one has 5 mins / 10 mins / 20 mins to come on here - be it from abroad or from at home - to read through and reply, that doesn't necessarily mean that that it's 'enough' time to read through everything and give a proper and thoughtful answer to heavy criticism"

Even if they were following, every day, still doesn't mean anything, as even when they did come on and answer...they just got more bashing. So earlier, perhaps they thought to just wait until they had sufficient time and or the live performances that everyone was wanting...maybe? More than likely though, they weren't following this thread keenly whilst away doing something more interesting than watching themselves being torn apart on an internet forum. As an example, I've just got back from a week in France with my family. Had my iPhone the whole time. Never turned it on once...not to check emails, not to check voicemails and certainly not to come on this place.

True, I'm not a creator with a product out...but so what? This forum really thinks a lot of itself that people continually expect magic creators to be at their beck and call.

Again, for clarity, not attacking you...merely responding.

But overall...no, I do not believe I'm being naive suggesting that maybe they both had better things to do with their time than come on this forum. [/quote]

Nicely put. Thank you.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 21, 2015 01:26PM)
Probably too busy spending all that money they collected through false advertising. :mad:
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 01:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, CarlMcCoy wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, RNK wrote:
Really CarlMcCoy? You really think that Lloyd and Geraint were not following from the beginning what was being posted here? Especially the Hype Lloyd was presenting about CHANGE. Absolutely no way Lloyd was not reading from the beginning what was being posted. To believe that is just being naïve. I'm not ripping on you CarlMcCoy I am looking at this with common sense about a creator and his/her product. A creator will obviously keep up with what was being posted about his/her creation especially when it's one that was supposed to be all you will ever need! [/quote]

Didn't say they weren't following. I said "It could be argued that even if one has 5 mins / 10 mins / 20 mins to come on here - be it from abroad or from at home - to read through and reply, that doesn't necessarily mean that that it's 'enough' time to read through everything and give a proper and thoughtful answer to heavy criticism"

Even if they were following, every day, still doesn't mean anything, as even when they did come on and answer...they just got more bashing. So earlier, perhaps they thought to just wait until they had sufficient time and or the live performances that everyone was wanting...maybe? More than likely though, they weren't following this thread keenly whilst away doing something more interesting than watching themselves being torn apart on an internet forum. As an example, I've just got back from a week in France with my family. Had my iPhone the whole time. Never turned it on once...not to check emails, not to check voicemails and certainly not to come on this place.

True, I'm not a creator with a product out...but so what? This forum really thinks a lot of itself that people continually expect magic creators to be at their beck and call.

Again, for clarity, not attacking you...merely responding.

But overall...no, I do not believe I'm being naive suggesting that maybe they both had better things to do with their time than come on this forum. [/quote]

Nicely put. Thank you. [/quote]

Please. To busy to respond. Just keep digging a deeper hole.
Message: Posted by: RNK (Jul 21, 2015 01:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, pegasus wrote:
Probably too busy spending all that money they collected through false advertising. :mad: [/quote]

Nicely put.
Message: Posted by: Low Key (Jul 21, 2015 04:03PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2015, Griflex wrote:
I bought this on a pre-order...I live in the UK and had to pay the high shipping costs...Ellusionist had not shipped my item on the Wednesday after the date of release so I cancelled my order as I had changed my mind after the early bad reviews on here...Ellusionist said they could not cancel my order due to the volume of orders of this effect as it would take too long to process and they would have to ship it to me in the UK and when I receive it ship it back to them at my cost to then get my refund!!!!....This I told them was totally unacceptable with regards to distance selling laws and I insisted on my full refund...I also filed a dispute with Paypal siting what I have just said [/quote]

This happened to me, too.
Except, unlike Griflex I still haven't received a response to my PayPal dispute.

I was going to keep this between me and the Ellusionist customers service team because I'm not in the habit of airing my dirty laundry. But I read the following from Lloyd Barnss:

[Quote] however there comes a point where you were one of our only customers to ask for a refunded[/quote]

And it grated.
If there were only one or two why the problem with my (reasonable) request? And the slow response time?
That statement suggests to me only a handful of customers asked for a refund. Let's be generous and say 10. Out of 2000.
Three of us are on here, two have had problems, one still hasn't had a response. Not a great track record when Chessman is 'one of the only' customers to ask for a refund...

I'll also echo that Ellusionist are blaming people instead of addressing problems.
A point that got a bit lost when they started debating if Chessman was behaving properly or not.
Message: Posted by: Fin (Jul 21, 2015 05:24PM)
Ten minutes of "Q&A" plus the live performances.. That's a real good attempt at damage control there. All of it could have been avoided if the initial advertising was not so over-the-top and FALSE. Yes.. I said that.. The claim that "THIS IS A COMPLETELY REVOLUTIONARY NEW CONCEPT" IS 100% FALSE. That quote is from a video, still available on their facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/videos/10152968854826161/) and on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3agDjOgmto)

So I'll repeat the question I asked on facebook, which has remained unanswered now for over two weeks: Lloyd (& Ellusionist), don't you think it's dishonest and misleading to call it a "completely revolutionary new concept"? There are several entire decks already on the market that have been using this exact "technology" for years. One such example demo was uploaded onto youtube in 2007!

Lenticular ("changing") playing card, posted on youtube in 2007!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7D0Zk87FY8

More lenticular playing cards.. here reviewed on youtube in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rqn6TqbWJM

People being unhappy because they don't like the angles, the quality, or because they don't think it's practical, is one thing, and your "Q&A" plus the live performances are a valiant attempt to (finally) address those criticisms. But the real question here, and the one which caused this to snowball in the way it did, is concerning the over-hyped, exaggerated claims, and what turns out to be a provably false claim that it is a "completely revolutionary new concept". It is not a completely revolutionary new concept. This ain't about semantics. It really isn't new or revolutionary to use this method to have a card visually change. It's that simple. Now whether you just failed to think about doing a quick google/youtube search for "lenticular playing cards" before making that claim, or whether you knew they existed but chose to leave out that info.. the claim is still false. Please change the advertising and remove the false claim from the video on facebook and youtube. If you don't do this, you are willingly lying to your customers, and that is something that goes way beyond practicality issues and other comparatively minor niggles.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 21, 2015 11:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, barts185 wrote:
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:

The gimmick is so touchy, there is no way to know what the spectator is seeing. What I am seeing looks terrible with all of my handlings.

[/quote]


Have you tried the suggestion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuImhGEAsnk&t=5m49s ?

I'm presuming you have, just figured it was worth pointing out. [/quote]

Yes, I have, but I appreciate you sharing this just in case I had not.

I tried the mirror, tried the extra card, and it just does not come through.

The frustration is it looked good in the trailer and the reactions looked great in the live performances, but I have not been able to get this right.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 21, 2015 11:09PM)
Low Key,

They wouldn't give me a refund. They were giving them out, then all of a sudden it stopped.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Jupiter47 (Jul 21, 2015 11:14PM)
What reason did they give for not issuing a refund?
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 21, 2015 11:27PM)
Something to the effect it the reason did not fit into the company's parameters.

I should note I was told the live videos was coming out and if I still was not pleased, they would refund my money. Not sure I want to pay shipping and lose 20 percent.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Jul 22, 2015 12:16AM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
Low Key,

They wouldn't give me a refund. They were giving them out, then all of a sudden it stopped.

Bobby [/quote]

That will be because there is a high demand for unhappy customers wanting refunds. Ellusionist say there is very few unhappy customers, if that was the case then they would refund without hesitating,There is obviously a high volume of unhappy customers and they stand to loose a lot of revenue if they refund everyone that's unhappy with the purchase of CHANGE which will change magic forever !!!

Graham
Message: Posted by: Low Key (Jul 22, 2015 02:53AM)
A few minutes after posting here my PayPal request was escalated to a dispute by the seller.

I'm 'one of the only' customers (again, out of 2,000 sales totalling $60,000) to request a refund yet they do this?
Or the four of us on here now are part of a much bigger group and they're lying about that or total sales or both.
Either way it doesn't give me faith in Ellusionist.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jul 22, 2015 07:28AM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, Low Key wrote:
...it doesn't give me faith in Ellusionist.
[/quote]

No. Me neither. This is disappointing, to say the least. I might just put them in the SPAM category next email I get from them. Or UNSUBSCRIBE, whichever. I am thoroughly disgusted seeing this. No, I DON'T own this! Thank God! Epic FAIL on their part. No way around it.

Doug
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 22, 2015 07:52AM)
I gave up on them after they offeed a 15% Discount but on the Package Put down the FULL RETAIL Price

so ended up paying extra Customs Charges on a Price I never paid

As the Customer Service at E was Take it or Leave it (Next Time I am going to Leave It !)
Message: Posted by: Robmonster (Jul 22, 2015 07:56AM)
Really? What percentage is import duty where you are? Even assuming 20% the difference in duty owed between something full price and 85% of that price is going to be small.

You should pay customs charge on everything from overseas
Message: Posted by: Low Key (Jul 22, 2015 08:39AM)
In the UK if it's below £36 (gift) or £15 (anything else) there's no import charge.
If over it's a base handling charge of £8 plus 20% percent of the cost.

So $1 could potentially make an £11 difference to the price.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 22, 2015 01:46PM)
Lloyd Barnes wrote:

I've noticed that Chessman is at the helm of this thread making the majority of the posts. I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of wanting to "stop others making the same mistake that you did", however there comes a point where you were one of our only customers to ask for a refunded (which we did immediately) then you spent the next two weeks continually making post after post on the Café ripping apart anything to do with Change, there comes a point where it goes from trying to warn some customers to becoming an out an out troll. Nothing is going to change your mind on this topic, everyone on this entire thread can see that, however and as arrogant as this sound, you are the minority. I see that others have posted their concerns too, that is great! Honest opinions are always welcomed but when it's the same person tirelessly on the attack it all goes a bit stale. I 100% stand behind my work on Change and am incredibly proud of how it turned out and the general response to it from around the world, I do though try to make time for as many people as possible and I feel that you feel incredibly wronged by myself and Ellusionist so I'd love to take some time to talk with you personally to see if there's a way to right this or at least find some common ground. Magic should be a brotherhood and the thought of anyone feeling so angry towards one and other really gets to me.

***

Well, I wouldn't say I was at the helm, but it does seem to be lost that I gave it a VERY thorough review, detailing all of the tests I made with it in different lighting conditions.

I think your statement here bears repeating:

"...then you spent the next two weeks continually making post after post on the Café ripping apart anything to do with Change".

Lloyd, this is not true. Before writing this, I found and re-read each of my posts in the topic since my review posts. While there was some humor (the dog turds were over the top, admittedly, but were just poking fun), I would not at all characterize my posts as trollish, or the number of posts excessive, or ripping anything to do with "Change" at every turn. I invite *anyone* to read my posts, and look at the number of posts I made, and draw their own conclusion. Trolling was never my intent, but you - being on the flip side of the coin - could see it that way. Its understandable.

It may be beneficial for you to go back and read my posts, and the posts of other owners who thought poorly of "Change". I am certainly not alone. You say that I am in the minority in my feelings about "Change". Well, certainly not among owners at the Café. But let's go with that for the sake of argument. So what? One movie reviewer loves a movie, another hates it. At least I have gone into GREAT detail as to why I feel as I do about "Change".

I hold no animosity or anger toward you, Lloyd, but a bit of disappointment. If I saw you on the street, I wouldn't bring up "Change". I do feel, however, that you've put yourself in a very tough position with this release, and E compounded this on you with their marketing. I've bought tricks that I didn't care for, and "Change" was only $29. I'm sure it will happen again in the future. When I did the pre-order, I knew it was a gamble, but honestly, I did it for fun (as I stated earlier in the topic).

I must say that it is has been sad to see E's and Geraint's bent to "blame the customer" in all of this. This is particularly disturbing.

Do I feel wronged by Ellusionist? Well, yes, as the marketing (imo) was blatently deceptive. I'm not losing sleep over it, though.

What I am seeing is that, while I gave my opinion of "Change" and thoroughly backed it up with a good deal of tests in different lighting conditions...it seems that I (and other customers) are more to blame than Ellusionist :) This is even more noticeable when there has been no challenge to any of the negative aspects of "Change" that have been brought up. About the only thing we have heard from you, Geraint, and E is that the problem is not the product, the problem is the customers.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 22, 2015 02:10PM)
[quote]
On Jul 21, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:

Chessman, you seem to be intent on picking apart every line from my response, and then responding to your own commentary on it.
[/quote]

This is not uncommon. Many people do it. It has the purpose of clarity. And your words most certainly earned my response, I'll say that!

[quote]
You didn't like it on Day 1. You asked for a refund on Day 1. We granted you that refund on Day 1... but instead, you've spent the last 2 weeks !@#$%ing about a trick that you should of sent back to the team to get your money back on? That's great customer service...... If I buy a pair of jeans that I didn't feel were blue-enough, and I took them back, and the company gave me a refund. I wouldn't harbour any animosity to waste 2 weeks of my time moaning about it. Where you're concerned, the CS team at E have done their best with you. If you're still not pleased after being offered the opportunity to get your money back, then there is nothing more we can do. [/quote]

Geraint, you have just demonstrated that you STILL don't know what this is all about. You say there is nothing more you can do? That's incorrect, there is something very great that E can do - something that they can promise never to do again. Can you guess what that is?
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 22, 2015 02:26PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
[quote]
On Jul 21, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:

Chessman, you seem to be intent on picking apart every line from my response, and then responding to your own commentary on it.
[/quote]

This is not uncommon. Many people do it. It has the purpose of clarity. And your words most certainly earned my response, I'll say that!

[quote]
You didn't like it on Day 1. You asked for a refund on Day 1. We granted you that refund on Day 1... but instead, you've spent the last 2 weeks !@#$%ing about a trick that you should of sent back to the team to get your money back on? That's great customer service...... If I buy a pair of jeans that I didn't feel were blue-enough, and I took them back, and the company gave me a refund. I wouldn't harbour any animosity to waste 2 weeks of my time moaning about it. Where you're concerned, the CS team at E have done their best with you. If you're still not pleased after being offered the opportunity to get your money back, then there is nothing more we can do. [/quote]

Geraint, you have just demonstrated that you STILL don't know what this is all about. You say there is nothing more you can do? That's incorrect, there is something very great that E can do - something that they can promise never to do again. Can you guess what that is? [/quote]


Yes it's a shame he does not get it but thanks for all your good work far to long we have had to put up with lies from this company and well over time someone stood up and put a stop to all the crap E and some other dealers have been getting away with


Hopefully people will once and for all avoid Pre Orders !
Message: Posted by: Spartan21 (Jul 22, 2015 03:26PM)
This should be interesting, E have just sent me an email requesting my thoughts on Change, good and bad. I wonder if they will post it.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 22, 2015 04:30PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
What I am seeing is that, while I gave my opinion of "Change" and thoroughly backed it up with a good deal of tests in different lighting conditions...it seems that I (and other customers) are more to blame than Ellusionist :) This is even more noticeable when there has been no challenge to any of the negative aspects of "Change" that have been brought up. About the only thing we have heard from you, Geraint, and E is that the problem is not the product, the problem is the customers. [/quote]
Chessman,

Well said. I have not been quiet about my disappointment, but I have been reluctant to assign blame because it still just might be my handling. I recognize this is a possibility because I have tried to do an Erdnase color change for years, and I still can't do it.

But, I think this is a fair insight.

This thread is now on its 21st page. We have been around the block and back a time or two. If there is anyone out there who is enjoying Change and figured out the best way to handle the gimmicks, I would love to hear from them.

I have decided I am not going to pursue a refund. I was assured if I still had problems they would issue the refund, but for me now it is a logistics and business issue. I don't want to spend the time packaging it, going to the post office and sending it back only to face the 20 percent restocking fee or whatever they call it.

I keep hoping one day it will just click, and I will have the life-changing effect I was promised.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 22, 2015 05:00PM)
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst?
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 22, 2015 05:59PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, Low Key wrote:
In the UK if it's below £36 (gift) or £15 (anything else) there's no import charge.
If over it's a base handling charge of £8 plus 20% percent of the cost.

So $1 could potentially make an £11 difference to the price. [/quote]

Yes you are correct , I am more than happy to pay the custom charges on the price I paid but adding 15% extra on to the declared price also cost me extra £11 post office charge , all could have been avoided if the put the correct amount I actually paid them

The response was next time I should wait until it comes out from local dealer !
Message: Posted by: Iain1986 (Jul 22, 2015 06:05PM)
I see the blurb on their website is still the same....so even after they "address" concerns by releasing the 10 minute Q&A....the advertising blurb on the website remains the same. So nothing learnt. Issue some refunds. Jobs a good'un.

Also.

Why was there no live performances on the dvd? How hard could it be for a company like Ellusionist to film some live performances? They do it all the time....why not with this?

Why are the live performances that were released filmed in Italy while all this "snowballing" was happening? Why did NO ONE involved in the production think, "Lets film some reactions".

If this was SO revolutionary and game changing as was advertised..why did NO ONE film ANYONE'S reaction to it what-so-ever?!?!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 22, 2015 06:31PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
Well said. I have not been quiet about my disappointment, but I have been reluctant to assign blame because it still just might be my handling. I recognize this is a possibility because I have tried to do an Erdnase color change for years, and I still can't do it.

But, I think this is a fair insight.

This thread is now on its 21st page. We have been around the block and back a time or two. If there is anyone out there who is enjoying Change and figured out the best way to handle the gimmicks, I would love to hear from them.

I have decided I am not going to pursue a refund. I was assured if I still had problems they would issue the refund, but for me now it is a logistics and business issue. I don't want to spend the time packaging it, going to the post office and sending it back only to face the 20 percent restocking fee or whatever they call it.

I keep hoping one day it will just click, and I will have the life-changing effect I was promised.

[/quote]

Good for you, man. Stick to it as long as you feel there's a shot!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 22, 2015 08:00PM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, J-Mac wrote:
I think that Lloyd's comment to Chessman about keeping up his complaining so long can be directly connected to Lloyd's absence from this thread for so long. If the concerns had been addressed promptly would Chessman have kept it up for so long? [/quote]

Actually, Lloyd's absence had naught to do with my presence. I didn't think he would change my opinion on the effect, but I was interested in seeing the live performances.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Jul 22, 2015 09:32PM)
I have an idea, why don't those of us who have Change and were refused (me, at least initially) a refund, hit the streets and record video on our smartphones and post the reactions to Change so everyone can see how awesome of an effect it is?

Bobby

p.s. I am heading out to Niagara Falls, and it might be fun to try it on unsuspecting strangers.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 22, 2015 09:48PM)
IMO, although this is definitely not everything it was hyped up to be, it's certainly not the worst trick ever. The color changing card and blurry king are kind of neat, in particular, and pretty much do what they're supposed to. No, you can't stare at them up close while they're still without seeing what's going on, but plenty of card gaffs are like that, especially the ones with flaps. The card with the headphone cord is junk, because it's impossible to make the cord vanish. By contrast, the change in the coin gaff happens cleanly like you're flicking a switch. The penny is obviously large, but if you do a routine with a Sudsbury, such as Dishonest Abe, I could see working it in as a little "extra moment" if your Sudsbury had the right patina. Even if you dismiss it as magic for video, there's a place for that too, such as for a moment in a promo video clip. Anyway, I'm not rushing out to perform with this, but I'm not planning on throwing it away, either.
Message: Posted by: hikeeba (Jul 22, 2015 10:05PM)
[quote]On Jul 19, 2015, Danny Kazam wrote:
I used to wonder how Ellusionist always maintained an A+ BBB rating despite many unresolved complaints, which eventually were wiped away.[/quote]

I've had to go that route a couple of times to get satisfaction from ellusionist. Unfortunately I get the run-around with customer service, but when a BBB case is opened, they will respond. Shame it has to come to that - but I'd suggest anyone having difficulties with a refund should open a case.
Message: Posted by: RiBo (Jul 23, 2015 06:01AM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, gtx magic wrote:
The reviews from the 3rd to 10th July = 12 only and no negative feed back. They tell us they have had overwhelming positive feed back and they are out of stock on the first batch.

I wonder where all the other reviews are,Mmmmm makes you wonder doesn't it !!!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/3VV9h0w.gif[/img] [/quote]
I just submitted mine, I'll be curious to see if it gets posted as is or gets changed in any way.

I rated it two stars by the way, for the construction quality. These gimmicks will last a very, very long time if one chooses to use them regularly. Even longer if you're like me and they wind up in a drawer for the duration.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Jul 23, 2015 06:46AM)
[quote]
On Jul 21, 2015, GeraintClarke wrote:

You didn't like it on Day 1. You asked for a refund on Day 1. We granted you that refund on Day 1... That's great customer service...... If I buy a pair of jeans that I didn't feel were blue-enough, and I took them back, and the company gave me a refund. I wouldn't harbour any animosity to waste 2 weeks of my time moaning about it. Where you're concerned, the CS team at E have done their best with you. If you're still not pleased after being offered the opportunity to get your money back, then there is nothing more we can do. [/quote]


Geraint, 2 points:

- Great customer service begings PRIOR TO the sale. We should praise a company because it accepts a return for a poor product it knowingly sold to us in the first place? Who has heard of such a thing?

- Tell me, did the Blue Jean Store market that pair of jeans as something that will change your blue jean wearing world (and the color blue) forever? Did this blue jean store engage in some pretty wild-eyed marketing ("Holy ****, my jaw just hit the floor!" "Wake up our seamstress, we've got to get more of these made!")? No, I think there is a significant difference between your illustration and reality.

Moaning? I think you should read my posts again. The only one moaning here is you, moaning about fact that I have chosen to speak my mind about this product and the marketing tactics used to promote it.
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 23, 2015 11:53AM)
Has E -ever- had anything but horrible customer service? I'm curious because after my experience I just decided they were not worth dealing with, don't feel like I've lost anything.

They had a sale that was advertised as going to a certain time. I logged in 45 minutes prior to the advertised end time and the sale was gone. I contacted customer service and the response was essentially, "F*#k you, you shouldn't have waited so long. We're not going to honor the sale price even though it's currently earlier than when we said the sale would end."

Told me all I needed to know, haven't been back.
Message: Posted by: CarlMcCoy (Jul 23, 2015 12:30PM)
Well I've never had anything other than excellent customer service from them.
And I've been a customer since Brad first set the site up.

I've always found that being polite and courteous gets you a long way in life*

*Obviously I'm not like that on here, but here is a wholly different kettle of fish and those fish often deserve it. Neither was I particularly directing my comment to you Barts. However I've often wondered if some of the people on here actually act the same way in real life. If so...it'd be why they get nowhere.

Rightso, another pot stirred...I'm off to grab a cold one from the fridge.
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 23, 2015 03:05PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, writeall wrote:
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst? [/quote]

Not in *every* case.......

Trust me......

Just wait......

;-)
Message: Posted by: tomsk192 (Jul 23, 2015 07:18PM)
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame.
Message: Posted by: MaxfieldsMagic (Jul 23, 2015 07:35PM)
Ellusionist has put out plenty of worthwhile DVDs and effects, IMO tomsk192, despite the fact that folks seem to like to slag them. I really enjoyed some of the early Brad Christian card magic DVDs - he presented a good selection of the "best" card effects, and gave more credit to the early creators than some seem willing to admit. Silver Dream by Justin Miller was great as well. And more recently, we have the Eric Jones coin DVDs; the Messado Ring package with rings and DVD at a very reasonable price; The Informant by Bobby Motta; and Ellusionist was the first to break "Sick" by Ponta the Smith. None of that suggests that "they are a bunch of utter w*nkers."

Clearly, though, Change was over-hyped. But Paul Harrris, Penguin, L&L, and others have been guilty of that same offense occasionally.
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 24, 2015 01:38AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

Have to agree even if they do bring ocassional good item out , the fact is the customer service at E is the a Lowest of The Low

So even if you do get the odd good product plus Bad Customer Service

= Avoid at All Costs !
Message: Posted by: barts185 (Jul 24, 2015 01:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, CarlMcCoy wrote:
Well I've never had anything other than excellent customer service from them.
And I've been a customer since Brad first set the site up.

I've always found that being polite and courteous gets you a long way in life*

*Obviously I'm not like that on here, but here is a wholly different kettle of fish and those fish often deserve it. Neither was I particularly directing my comment to you Barts. However I've often wondered if some of the people on here actually act the same way in real life. If so...it'd be why they get nowhere.

Rightso, another pot stirred...I'm off to grab a cold one from the fridge. [/quote]

I agree about being polite and courteous when dealing with a customer. I wasn't the one that was impolite in that exchange - they were. I (the potential customer) simply contacted them asking why I no longer saw the sale price and got a less than wonderful response.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 24, 2015 02:27AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

I don't think Lloyds track record is appalling. He has released some reaslly good stuff in the past and he's clearly a clever chap. It's just this was one big royal !@#$ up, made ten times worse by the hype and Ellusionist radio silence. However; my son absolutely loves these cards (not the purpose I bought them for) so if anyone has this; lets face it you arent going to be using it! so give it to your kids. They find this sort of thing absolutely fascinating....Just like we did when we opened up the cereal packet and the little card dropped in to our bowl. Could that little card have "broken the internet" if it had been invented in 1986.....who knows?

I would post the quote my son gave about change after I gave it to him, but I fear Ellussionist would simply cut out the bit that says "age 7" and use it on their site.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 24, 2015 04:35AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

The exact reason I never ordered. However, the very false advertising suggested that this was anything but old technology, and unfortunately 2000 fell for it.
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jul 24, 2015 04:38AM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

I don't think Lloyds track record is appalling. He has released some reaslly good stuff in the past and he's clearly a clever chap. It's just this was one big royal !@#$ up, made ten times worse by the hype and Ellusionist radio silence. However; my son absolutely loves these cards (not the purpose I bought them for) so if anyone has this; lets face it you arent going to be using it! so give it to your kids. They find this sort of thing absolutely fascinating....Just like we did when we opened up the cereal packet and the little card dropped in to our bowl. Could that little card have "broken the internet" if it had been invented in 1986.....who knows?

I would post the quote my son gave about change after I gave it to him, but I fear Ellussionist would simply cut out the bit that says "age 7" and use it on their site. [/quote]

$30 a Expensive Kids Toy

Can't see E putting that Quote on the Website !
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 24, 2015 04:52AM)
A $40 dollar kids toy. It shipped to the uk. I wanted to at least try it out and couldn't be bothered to try to grt a refund; life is too short.

I'm just trying to find the best in the situation. I lost $40 my son gained a fun trick and E have basically said their Ethos is "our hype and borderline misleading ad copy is just business". Ultimately I beleive karma will get them if that's how they want to do business.
Message: Posted by: writeall (Jul 24, 2015 08:08AM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, writeall wrote:
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst? [/quote]

Not in *every* case.......

Trust me......

Just wait......

;-) [/quote]

Awww, that's just cruel. You are going to make me pre-order something, aren't you?

Actually, the Rubik's Cube stuff from Karl Hein looks like something I'd take a shot at. And, surprisingly, it doesn't need the extreme hype machine. I guess when you have a BMW to sell, you just show the car, because the quality is obvious.
Message: Posted by: Stucky (Jul 24, 2015 08:33AM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, writeall wrote:
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst? [/quote]

No but I think there is one that says that bad products get 20+ pages on here while good products get 2 or 3.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jul 24, 2015 08:41AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
We encourage people to be open, honest and vocal about our products...[/quote]

If that's true, why don't the negative reviews get shown on ellusionist?
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 24, 2015 09:06AM)
On Jul 21, 2015, Lloyd Barnes wrote:
We encourage people to be open, honest and vocal about our products... Except on our website where our regular suckers, I mean customers, can't read them.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Jul 24, 2015 11:07AM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

The exact reason I never ordered. However, the very false advertising suggested that this was anything but old technology, and unfortunately 2000 fell for it. [/quote]


2001. I sold mine on Ebay :)
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Jul 24, 2015 01:10PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, magicshowprod wrote:
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, tomsk192 wrote:
You've all been had! Come on, really?

I remember getting such things in cereal packets in the 1980's.

Lloyd Barnes? Ha! His track record is appalling, just look. And Ellusionist? They are a bunch of utter w*nkers.

What grown man or woman ordered this dross? Are you insane? Are you drooling at the mouth?

You have only yourselves to blame. [/quote]

The exact reason I never ordered. However, the very false advertising suggested that this was anything but old technology, and unfortunately 2000 fell for it. [/quote]


2001. I sold mine on Ebay :) [/quote]

Expect negative feedback in that case for false advertising. :lol:
Message: Posted by: Jon Allen (Jul 24, 2015 01:16PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, writeall wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, writeall wrote:
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst? [/quote]

Not in *every* case.......

Trust me......

Just wait......

;-) [/quote]

Awww, that's just cruel. You are going to make me pre-order something, aren't you?

Actually, the Rubik's Cube stuff from Karl Hein looks like something I'd take a shot at. And, surprisingly, it doesn't need the extreme hype machine. I guess when you have a BMW to sell, you just show the car, because the quality is obvious. [/quote]


Firstly, yes ;)

Secondly, that's very true about quality. Depending on the product or effect, you actually don't need to see people's reactions in trailers. Of course people are going to be shocked, amazed, blown away etc or they wouldn't be in the trailer. If creators showed the product rather than created an image of what the product seems to be or worse, what the audience thinks it looks like, magic would be in a better place.
Message: Posted by: Ray Chelt (Jul 24, 2015 02:00PM)
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]On Jul 24, 2015, writeall wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Jon Allen wrote:
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, writeall wrote:
Is there some kind of Law of the Universe that the most hyped products are usually the worst? [/quote]

Not in *every* case.......

Trust me......

Just wait......

;-) [/quote]

Awww, that's just cruel. You are going to make me pre-order something, aren't you?

Actually, the Rubik's Cube stuff from Karl Hein looks like something I'd take a shot at. And, surprisingly, it doesn't need the extreme hype machine. I guess when you have a BMW to sell, you just show the car, because the quality is obvious. [/quote]


Firstly, yes ;)

Secondly, that's very true about quality. Depending on the product or effect, you actually don't need to see people's reactions in trailers. Of course people are going to be shocked, amazed, blown away etc or they wouldn't be in the trailer. If creators showed the product rather than created an image of what the product seems to be or worse, what the audience thinks it looks like, magic would be in a better place. [/quote]


Ah! I love those trailers where the magician wanders around the street for 5 minutes looking all "street" before we get a glimpse of the magic.
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Jul 27, 2015 12:18PM)
Since E post all their reviews and don't cherry pick; I look forward to mine being published.
Message: Posted by: JackMagic (Jul 27, 2015 01:40PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2015, Paul S Wingham wrote:
Since E post all their reviews and don't cherry pick; I look forward to mine being published. [/quote]

I think you stand more chance of winning the Loto than seeing your review on E web pages !
Message: Posted by: Fin (Aug 2, 2015 01:35PM)
Lloyd, Geraint, or anyone else from Ellusionist.. Please respond to my earlier post re: FALSE advertising. This needs to be addressed. If not, you are knowingly lying to your customers.

[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Fin wrote:
Ten minutes of "Q&A" plus the live performances.. That's a real good attempt at damage control there. All of it could have been avoided if the initial advertising was not so over-the-top and FALSE. Yes.. I said that.. The claim that "THIS IS A COMPLETELY REVOLUTIONARY NEW CONCEPT" IS 100% FALSE. That quote is from a video, still available on their facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/videos/10152968854826161/) and on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3agDjOgmto)

So I'll repeat the question I asked on facebook, which has remained unanswered now for over two weeks: Lloyd (& Ellusionist), don't you think it's dishonest and misleading to call it a "completely revolutionary new concept"? There are several entire decks already on the market that have been using this exact "technology" for years. One such example demo was uploaded onto youtube in 2007!

Lenticular ("changing") playing card, posted on youtube in 2007!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7D0Zk87FY8

More lenticular playing cards.. here reviewed on youtube in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rqn6TqbWJM

People being unhappy because they don't like the angles, the quality, or because they don't think it's practical, is one thing, and your "Q&A" plus the live performances are a valiant attempt to (finally) address those criticisms. But the real question here, and the one which caused this to snowball in the way it did, is concerning the over-hyped, exaggerated claims, and what turns out to be a provably false claim that it is a "completely revolutionary new concept". It is not a completely revolutionary new concept. This ain't about semantics. It really isn't new or revolutionary to use this method to have a card visually change. It's that simple. Now whether you just failed to think about doing a quick google/youtube search for "lenticular playing cards" before making that claim, or whether you knew they existed but chose to leave out that info.. the claim is still false. Please change the advertising and remove the false claim from the video on facebook and youtube. If you don't do this, you are willingly lying to your customers, and that is something that goes way beyond practicality issues and other comparatively minor niggles. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Xcath1 (Aug 2, 2015 03:02PM)
And I was worried that this thread had died
Message: Posted by: alexlatorre (Aug 6, 2015 08:56AM)
Glad I avoided this trick. I knew I was correct waiting for reviews
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 7, 2015 08:43AM)
Just got an email from E advertising a few new releases. And they included "Back in Stock CHANGE" and STILL are pitching "5 visual miracles that will Change your life". What arrogance and stupidity.
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Aug 7, 2015 09:20AM)
RNK,

The advertising is spot on: Changed my life (in companies I will avoid giving money) and changed my wallet (a little leaner, but now a whole lot meaner).

Bobby
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 7, 2015 09:21AM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, robwar0100 wrote:
RNK,

The advertising is spot on: Changed my life (in companies I will avoid giving money) and changed my wallet (a little leaner, but now a whole lot meaner).

Bobby [/quote]

LOL. How true.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 7, 2015 09:47AM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, RNK wrote:
Just got an email from E advertising a few new releases.
[/quote]

Me too. Didn't even open it. Trashed.

[quote]What arrogance and stupidity.
[/quote]

Nah. Just aggressive marketing...

Doug
Message: Posted by: RNK (Aug 7, 2015 10:00AM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, Dougini wrote:
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, RNK wrote:
Just got an email from E advertising a few new releases.
[/quote]

Me too. Didn't even open it. Trashed.

[quote]What arrogance and stupidity.
[/quote]

Nah. Just aggressive marketing...

Doug [/quote]

Actually the only approach they could take. Otherwise they would be admitting their ignorance and false marketing.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Aug 7, 2015 11:48AM)
It did change my e-mail life. I asked to be taken off of their e-mail list. Yeah.......I was pretty disappointed by the whole thing.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 7, 2015 12:29PM)
Ellusionist does have a gem once in awhile. FRAUD was one.

Doug
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Aug 7, 2015 02:49PM)
Okay....you know I snickered a little when I read that ;)
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Aug 7, 2015 02:54PM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, Dougini wrote:
Ellusionist does have a gem once in awhile. FRAUD was one.

Doug [/quote]

FRAUD is beautiful.
Where is Brad on all of this?
I still give Props to E for the old Brad Christian Dvd's though. That's where I got my start.
Message: Posted by: Dougini (Aug 7, 2015 04:03PM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2015, pelicantrapper wrote:
I still give Props to E for the old Brad Christian DVDs though. That's where I got my start.
[/quote]

That was my start too. The Crash Courses. Not sure about Brad to be honest. He's a good guy. We used to correspond. That's how I got the heads-up on The Gaff Decks and Army Of 52. My favorite by far is the Ghost Deck and its Gaff Deck. White Bicycles. FRAUD was a heads-up. So was KAOS. I don't know what's going on over there. The uber-hype is starting to **** me off.

Doug
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Aug 7, 2015 06:14PM)
This is a review from the TNT guy's Re: magic's most life changing product...."CHANGE".Alex and Nico got it spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JRF22JPEYY

Graham.
Message: Posted by: Markymark (Aug 7, 2015 06:45PM)
I thought their review was too kind!
The phrase that comes to mind when I think of 'Change' is..
At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!
Message: Posted by: Legendary Wizard (Aug 7, 2015 09:19PM)
Yea I agree they are too kind ... Afterall TNT guys are quite nice , and how is this is " thrust the trailer " ? According to TNT guys a trailer must contain the full performance including double lifts , switches , whatever needed , in the trailer of CHANGE , hah just the change is shown ... They gave Unbelievalope a " don't thrust a trailer " just because a load is not shown ...

That aside , CHANGE is just a piece of **** . Now move forward ...
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Aug 7, 2015 09:58PM)
I am working with a videographer tomorrow to shoot my magic show for a promotional video. I am going to have him shooting video of me performing Change, and I will get reactions to my real-world performances.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Aug 7, 2015 11:21PM)
Oh, and I am going to perform the effect as it is shown in the trailer, you know, the thing that made me buy it.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Legendary Wizard (Aug 8, 2015 12:38AM)
Looking forward ~
Message: Posted by: robwar0100 (Aug 8, 2015 09:59PM)
Sorry to disappoint ... no video today.

I was doing an outdoor gig for two hours, and afterward neither I or my videographer wanted to do anything else.

So, nothing to show.

I might try again on Sunday. We'll see.

Bobby
Message: Posted by: Alex DLF (Aug 14, 2015 08:10AM)
Change – Lloyd Barnes

Product description : Oh well oh well oh well ! The most hyped trick of 2015 is finally in my hands and this is going to be one of the few reviews where I'm going to destroy the product. I'm telling it to you right away because we can't approve anything related to this trick : hype, way of selling it and the product in itself. Basically, Change is “A collection of 5 effects that will change your life forever”.. Yeah, whatever. You get a color changing card, vanishing the angel, making a card blur, a changing coin and a thing with headphones.

Price and where to buy it : This is sold at $29.95 and you can only find it on the Ellusionist website.

What you get : You get a small carboard sleeve, I think they did it because it was cheap to ship and easy to store for them, with inside 5 gimmicks which will allow you to perform the effects stated previously. Alright, I will say that only 0.5 gimmick can be used (the blurry king) and you will have to be very very careful about the light and the angles. You also get a streaming video for the explanations, nicely shot, but it doesn't help at all when it's the material which is the main problem. Unhappy with what I received.

Teaser : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_U_FME11qs

The pros and the cons : Here is the core of my review, let's begin with the cons, as I will usually be doing, I prefer to keep the good things for the end.

THE CONS :
Well, let's start by the hype around the trick. For months, the E team has been teasing the entire world with this release, for months ! They said that magic would be changed forever blablabla, all the usual BS but hey, Ellusionist is quite a big company which put time and efforts into their products, let's trust them ?
The way it has been sold, only 999 DVD available, but hey, when it's out of stock, we still have 1.000 DVD waiting to be sold ! So they lied just to make quick bucks, to make people buy it very quickly and say “First batch sold in under 10 minutes”, more BS hype.
Let's talk about the gimmicks should we ? A new principle ? Are you kidding me ? I'm born in 1995 and I remember when I was 4 or 5 having this kind of toy in my cereals ! Of course, they were not made out of Bicycle playing cards but don't say it's a new principle !
The gimmicks shine as hell, whatever light you're using. I can't see anyone using it in real life or maybe if you're in the deep night, you have a chance of getting away with it. (Or for TV and camera but I don't buy a magic trick to perform it only to my webcam)
The angles ! Sometimes in my review, I say that the angles are very limited but here, they're just awful ! Anyway, if you like dual reality, you can do a multiple reality here because everyone in the room will see something different ! Ahaha, I just realised that it could be a good trick in fact : “Man, you see that blue card ?” “What blue card, it's red !” “Guys, I'm seeing it purple”..
The color of the gimmicks are.. bad. They do not match at all the color of Bicycle playing cards.
The coin gimmick isn't cut out ! You have to cut A PERFECT CIRCLE to be able to have your gimmick, who is going to do that ? Why didn't you precut them ? It was too much time and you had to hype the whole project ?
Misleading trailer anyone ? The trick with the headphones can't be done as shown.
There is no way you can get away with 99% of the gimmicks, they're not well made per say, they are very shinny, doesn't feel and look at all like playing cards.

THE PROS :
You get 5 gimmicks so you can give them to 5 children to play with them.
It's cool to do it on video.

Overall rating : One of the worst project/product I've seen in a long time, definitely not worth it, please don't buy it, you will be disappointed because YOU CAN'T USE THE GIMMICKS ! 0/4 hearts, one of my first really bad review in a long long time, I really hope products like that will disappear from the market.

As for the difficulty level, you will have to be a master to present it in real life, from the angles to the light, you can't do it (or you will have to have somebody just in front of you, somebody a little bit old so they don't see well), 4/5 stars.

Similar products : From regular color change with sleights to flap cards, they are millions ways of achieving the same effect in the spectator mind. Please, learn the proper sleight instead of buying this piece of ****.

If you like this review, please make sure to read all the other ones on my website, link in my signature
Message: Posted by: Slackerking (Aug 14, 2015 05:24PM)
I've had this for quite a while and it's true, this is in no way a great product. Probably not even a mediocre product. A clever idea but not fleshed out well. That being said, it's also not as completely horrible as some have made it out. The Blurred King is fantastic, I use it regularly in a faux mentalist routine with Speechless, Weak and P'ink I Can't Read. The angles are simple. The bad news is that's the best card. The color changing is okay in limited situations but their are many better ways of accomplishing the same thing. The traveling angel is mediocre, lighting is very important in the right place it could be ok but as with most of the cards you can accomplish the same better other ways. The headphone card is the most disappointing because it's the one I wanted the most. It doesn't disappear completely rendering it useless. The coin is just awful.

The fact that I purchased off the trailer is no ones fault but mine. I'm an adult, I made the decision that it was worth the price and gamble to preorder it, and any disappointment from that purchase falls squarely on my shoulders. Would I buy it again? No. Would I buy more product from Lloyd Barnes? Absolutely, I've purchased a number of his releases and never been unhappy. Ellusionist? Of course, one dog out of ten or more purchases is pretty good. Not every product is s winner. In magic. In life.

But...Ellusionist. You need to post everyone's reviews on your site otherwise none of them are useful at all. There are obviously many posters who've submitted reviews that weren't posted. Mine wasn't ever posted and you've had it for months. The way you market a product is your prerogative, but censoring opinions about the product is just shady.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Aug 14, 2015 05:34PM)
Methinks you are blaming (if that is the word) yourself a bit too much, and would somewhat lessen the responsibility you place on your own shoulders, based on the misleading statements put out by Ellusionist.

Lloyd certainly has put out some winners, but he released the effect, and is on the Ellusionist team, so he has some responsibility to bear in all of this.

Agree 100% about Ellusionist :)
Message: Posted by: Paul S Wingham (Aug 14, 2015 11:04PM)
My review surprisingly didn't appear on the ellusionist site either. Thankfully for E; there are plenty of gullible morons out there who'll continue to buy their stuff; but it wont be me again.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Aug 29, 2015 03:30PM)
Would love to see Ellusionist address the real issue here, which was the accusation of false advertising. It seems that through all their responses, they have skillfully avoided addressing this issue. Not one word backing how these lenticular cards were a revolutionary new technology.

I also own Change and it is permanently in my junk drawer. I think most of us here on the Café are smart enough to know when we've been bamboozled
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Aug 29, 2015 11:26PM)
Their marketing guy made an attempt in the topic on "Iris" at justifying the release and claiming it was beloved by nearly everyone ordered. It was an insult to anyone capable of putting 2 thoughts together rationally.

They have made their thinking and ethic perfectly clear.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Aug 30, 2015 03:32AM)
They'd all make decent politicians.
Message: Posted by: lamagicienne (Aug 30, 2015 06:57AM)
Sad story :(
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 30, 2015 12:31PM)
I was just reminded of this product by a mention in a very interesting blog. It seems that the comments here are pretty one-sided, so I guess I'll give it the credit it deserves.

As an effect for magicians to perform, no....it's not good. However, as a "magic toy," I think it's pretty cool. And parts of it CAN be used.

My son had to perform something (anything) in a class late last year. As has happened in the past, he asked if I can teach him something magic. It's always more interesting than baton-twirling, don't you think? I had purchased "Change" on the secondary market for about ten bucks. I think that's a fair price, and I would likely get a little upset if I has purchased it at full price. The blurry king is the one item in the set that works well, so we put together a little routine where my son causes his spectator to imagine the card going out of focus.

Well, he was a hit. Got an "A." It certainly justified the ten dollar investment.

This is actually a very nice toy. Obviously, there's nothing new or revolutionary about it. It's not exactly "life-changing." Lloyd Barnes simply went to the wrong manufacturer. If he presented it to a toy company, many thousands of these would possibly be sold. As a toy, it really IS that good! Even the hobbyist magician would get a kick out of it. If it retailed for $10, it could be a big hit (and still make money....a LOT of money....there's really not much to it).

Personally, I would never, EVER buy anything from Ellusionist unless there were overwhelmingly good reviews for it. And then I'd try to buy it in a way that avoids Ellusionist directly.

I have a psychological problem. I despise liars and ripoff artists. Please note that those last two sentences are a separate paragraph and have no bearing on the previous paragraph.
Message: Posted by: MJE (Aug 30, 2015 12:34PM)
Oh, by "late last year," I meant last school year. It was actually a summer program, so it was only a matter of a few weeks ago.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Aug 30, 2015 12:40PM)
MJE, Unfortunately the majority of us bought this not as a toy......but as an effect that we could perform for our audience. Glad your child had fun with it though :)
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Aug 30, 2015 12:51PM)
Hey, if you get something out of it, that's great. MJE, had Lloyd gone to a non-magic dealer, many more may have been sold!

I think that most of the 'problem' lies with how the quality of the effect compared with the marketing it was given. One was poor, the other was outrageously overblown. The reaction some are having is not due to a (well) below-par effect (we've all bought them), but that something that was known by the dealer to be - to put it in the words of many reviewers - awful, was hailed by the dealer as revolutionary, etc...

Then there were the childish, "We've only got 999...really, that's it." which turns into, "Holy crap, we've got to get more. Let me call the guy that makes these at 3:00am..."
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Aug 30, 2015 02:17PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2015, Chessmann wrote:
Hey, if you get something out of it, that's great. MJE, had Lloyd gone to a non-magic dealer, many more may have been sold!

I think that most of the 'problem' lies with how the quality of the effect compared with the marketing it was given. One was poor, the other was outrageously overblown. The reaction some are having is not due to a (well) below-par effect (we've all bought them), but that something that was known by the dealer to be - to put it in the words of many reviewers - awful, was hailed by the dealer as revolutionary, etc...

Then there were the childish, "We've only got 999...really, that's it." which turns into, "Holy crap, we've got to get more. Let me call the guy that makes these at 3:00am..." [/quote]

I agree with your comment,in that Lloyd/ellusionist hyped this effect as being revolutionary and a new concept to the magic world:

Ellusionist/Lloyd are either naive or it was a marketing ploy to take as many orders/money and make a quick profit, and then deal with the complaints afterwards.They certainly couldn't think that this was an actual new miracle to the magic fraternity...Unless they think most of there customers are naïve.
Iff they would not of hyped it so much as being a game changer in the world of magic,then maybe they would of just got the thumbs down and not recommended.Then people would of moved on after general criticism. But now they have dug a deeper hole for themselves to get out of.

But are they bothered ?

Graham


:question:
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Aug 31, 2015 03:55AM)
You've got to bare in mind that it was only Café members who were disappointed with this product. Allegedly. :confused:
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Aug 31, 2015 01:12PM)
I wasn't disappointed with CHANGE because I was a Café member. I was disappointed because I felt cheated by the advertising. I've heard a lot of people downing this board (not you Pegasus) because "we all" had a "bad attitude" about this product. Well, it was a bad product! If I wanted a toy I would have gone to a joke shop. But I didn't think Ellusionist was a joke shop and I foolishly preordered the product.

The real joke is when I hear people saying that the only reason we didn't like the product was because we use this board. Really?

P.S. Again, not a slam on Pegasus. His post just reminded me of how many times I have heard this board being accused of the failure of CHANGE. :)
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Aug 31, 2015 01:22PM)
Don, I believe pegasus was sarcastically referring to Ryan Jacobs - the Ellusionist Marketing Rep's - comments. I'm sure he wasn’t getting down on the Café. See this post on the Iris topic:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=595817&forum=218&post=8762244

Jim
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Aug 31, 2015 01:26PM)
No, I totally got that. That's why I put in two disclaimers in my message :) I totally agree with Pegasus. It just reminded me how crazy the whole thing was.
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Sep 1, 2015 04:15PM)
[youtube]d8hRa3bkqs[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: gtx magic (Sep 1, 2015 04:15PM)
[youtube]_d8hRa3bkqs[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: acortest (Sep 18, 2015 02:31AM)
I just got this effect in new condition, second hand for $10 and I'm not sure I will ever use them at all (the first owner certainly didn't ever do anything with it). They look like badly produced toys, not real cards. At a bar, where it is dimly lit and people are intoxicated, you may get away with the blurry king or the headphone cord through card. I feel bad for those who spent $30 for it. I feel bad for spending the $10.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Sep 18, 2015 11:26AM)
But how can that be???

Ellusionist claims that everyone (besides all Café members) loved it!
Message: Posted by: MJE (Sep 18, 2015 03:00PM)
[quote]On Sep 18, 2015, acortest wrote:
I feel bad for spending the $10. [/quote]

I really think everyone is just upset about the horrible way it was promoted. I bet if Tenyo put it out (which is probably what SHOULD have happened in the first place) and you got it for ten bucks, you'd love it. As magic, of course it's garbage, but it's still a cool little curiosity.
Message: Posted by: magicshowprod (Oct 15, 2015 03:30PM)
Nah.....I'd still hate it ;)
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Oct 15, 2015 05:30PM)
First off, I'm not saying I like this trick at all (I'm actually never going to use it for real people) BUT if you want to check out a video of me using Change in a promo video here's a link: https://youtu.be/ATXRc4kLW1U

Change actually looks pretty good on video in my opinion :)
Message: Posted by: MJE (Oct 15, 2015 08:55PM)
Sean- Yes, it does look really nice, but it also looks like a trick video shot. I'm not sure that you can convince anyone seeing it that the color change wasn't done on your computer (on the remote chance that someone would mention it....which they won't). Not that you would want to dispute the client, but you then won't recreate the effect in person, as I understand your comment. But, in any case, that is ONE NICE PROMO VIDEO!!! I hope it's working for you.
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Oct 15, 2015 09:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2015, MJE wrote:
Sean- Yes, it does look really nice, but it also looks like a trick video shot. I'm not sure that you can convince anyone seeing it that the color change wasn't done on your computer (on the remote chance that someone would mention it....which they won't). Not that you would want to dispute the client, but you then won't recreate the effect in person, as I understand your comment. But, in any case, that is ONE NICE PROMO VIDEO!!! I hope it's working for you. [/quote]

Yes, I guess some people may assume it is a camera trick, but I am hoping to start posting more uncut performances for people to build some credibility :) And thank you very much for checking out the video!!! :D it means a lot!
Message: Posted by: JustJoshinMagic (Oct 15, 2015 09:59PM)
While its def a cool video (love the revolution bloopers) but if this is meant as a promo video so people will check you out (whether its just to see your videos or to actually get gigs), you might want to rethink it. It takes til the 28 second mark before we actually see you and see you doing magic. For a video that is only 1:28 long (and of that it technically ends at 1:08) its just too much dead time. Just my two cents! Either way it's a fun video and I'm glad someone got use out of the gimmick!
Message: Posted by: seanksutton (Oct 16, 2015 07:26AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2015, JustJoshinMagic wrote:
While its def a cool video (love the revolution bloopers) but if this is meant as a promo video so people will check you out (whether its just to see your videos or to actually get gigs), you might want to rethink it. It takes til the 28 second mark before we actually see you and see you doing magic. For a video that is only 1:28 long (and of that it technically ends at 1:08) its just too much dead time. Just my two cents! Either way it's a fun video and I'm glad someone got use out of the gimmick! [/quote]

Thanks for the advice man! I'm pretty new at making YouTube videos and what not so I still have a lot to learn :)
Message: Posted by: JustJoshinMagic (Oct 16, 2015 08:15AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2015, seanksutton wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2015, JustJoshinMagic wrote:
While its def a cool video (love the revolution bloopers) but if this is meant as a promo video so people will check you out (whether its just to see your videos or to actually get gigs), you might want to rethink it. It takes til the 28 second mark before we actually see you and see you doing magic. For a video that is only 1:28 long (and of that it technically ends at 1:08) its just too much dead time. Just my two cents! Either way it's a fun video and I'm glad someone got use out of the gimmick! [/quote]

Thanks for the advice man! I'm pretty new at making YouTube videos and what not so I still have a lot to learn :) [/quote]

My pleasure! With YouTube videos, you want to grab their attention in the first 10 seconds. It took me years to figure that out
Message: Posted by: pelicantrapper (Oct 16, 2015 10:46AM)
I agree that it could look good on video but would be hard to recreate perfectly in person. And Yep, I had an awesome video of a marriage proposal I got to help with as a magician. My intro was like 30 seconds to a minute and the view count suffered because of this. WAY TO LONG. lol. But have since learned.

When will this thread die? (:

Cheers!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Oct 16, 2015 10:42PM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2015, pelicantrapper wrote:

When will this thread die? (:

[/quote]

E had considered continuing to aggressively market "Change" until this messenger of Poseidon arrived with an important missive for them:

[img]http://imageshack.com/a/img633/3070/JtakNx.png[/img]
Message: Posted by: knownmagician (Aug 20, 2017 02:50AM)
I know this is an old post but where I could buy this gimmick beside from the ellusionist? I could not find on the ellusionist side.