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Topic: Who does Miser's Dream?
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 13, 2015 06:59PM)
Hi, just wondering how many Café members are currently doing a version, which version if not original, and if its done for stage, parlor, or close up?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 13, 2015 07:17PM)
The only one I have done in the last three months is "Coin Cap" that uses a borrowed baseball cap and winds up with 20 coins of various denominations. Productions from both hands and
hand shown empty between productions. Coins are poured out onto a plate several times after bouncing around in the cap. My favorite uses a metal or ceramic pitcher and different techniques.

Fact is, I have never used a traditional bucket or ended with "nothing" as a finale.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Jul 13, 2015 07:47PM)
Yea I have A Few Handling's Both Close-up And Stand-up!
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 13, 2015 10:03PM)
I doing misses dream on stage. It takes thee phases. First 70 coins appear. A lot of ways from a candle, air, floor, Spectator throw to the coin pail and then appear, a spectator say a number and then that number of coins appear... Second phase is a close up phase where I going down from stage and I take coins from espectator ears, ands, noise, hand etc 30 coins. And tird phase is big finale... It is my version of this classic effect. It also follow a plot and I play a character. It usually takes 18 minutes to perform.

I have a close-up missed dream wich I really love to perform. 7 dollar size appear plus two jumbo dollars as big finale. I is my version, not from no one.

I think it is a real great effect to perform on stage but also. For close up. But it is not easy to do.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Jul 14, 2015 02:05AM)
I am working on one with quarters (my dr@&&*r hold 15 comfortably) and I have a hold out that will feed me maybe 25 more at once for a final. I got a $1 bucket at Dollar Tree (the size of a plant pot, no pun intended, I do not "plant pot" :-) ) It is small enough for close up and loud enough for stage. I plan on using it more as a parlor type effect if an event wants a couple "tricks for the room" rather than 100% walk around.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jul 14, 2015 03:44AM)
I've been doing the MD since 1946.Stuart Ross (my first mentor) used a "lard pail"(a common "utensil" in those days,with a dozen GREEN RIVER WHISKEY "COINS". He had two half dollars, one at each end of the stack of "coins". He used two safety pin "droppers",so, I did too. It was the basic TARBELL routine, The routine slowly evolved to the present much simplified routine. For the past 25 years, I've used 5 silver dollars.
(
I invite anywhere from 6 to 20 boys and girls (5 to 8 years old) and the entire routine involves the kids.

There is "no set up" and when I finish, I can repeat it almost immediately. IT CLOSES THE SHOW for elementary schools. In high school,it uses 4 boys,and,it's next to closing.

I've experimented with a half dozen different buckets, and now use a "kitchen utensil" bucket.

I've tipped the REAL WORK,to only two other magicians. It's now in my book to be released at Rick Fisher's "MAGIC WEEK" in Colon, Michigan on July 25. I will be at Abbott's Get Together,a week later.

Later in August,I'll be attending the HOUDINI CLUB WEEKEND in Appleton, Wisconsin. Tentative plans are for attending a special evening at Magic Inc. in Chicago and a special evening at Dennis Haney's in Baltimore MD.
Message: Posted by: jakeg (Jul 14, 2015 08:03AM)
I use MD for kid shows. When I got Chris Capehart's DVD, I changed my routine around to include his audience participation segment. Significantly Improved my routine. I prefer using 2 kids from the audience.
Message: Posted by: Bluesman (Jul 14, 2015 04:09PM)
I been doing Gene Gordon's "The Coin Pail" for the last 30 some years. I used it for stage and platform shows.



Emmett
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 14, 2015 07:48PM)
For you guys who do the effect, here is my take. Hope you enjoy!!
http://youtu.be/uQcenD0YOZo
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Jul 14, 2015 08:49PM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Hi, just wondering how many Café members are currently doing a version, which version if not original, and if its done for stage, parlor, or close up? [/quote]


Are you going to post the results of your survey somewhere?
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 14, 2015 09:12PM)
The answers are right in this section
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Jul 14, 2015 10:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
The answers are right in this section [/quote]


Yeah I see those.

Discounts on your next DVD for those who reply?
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Jul 14, 2015 10:34PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
For you guys who do the effect, here is my take. Hope you enjoy!!
http://youtu.be/uQcenD0YOZo [/quote]

Hey Dr. Rubinestein, ummmm, can I say something? Something that really bothers me. Your right arm during the introduction. It's just hanging there, and I'll tell you why. Your brain is telling you that you're holding something important so it puts the arm in the natural position for holding something. The problem is you are trying to communicate to your audience that the hand is empty. I spend a lot of my time watching people move, and no one, [b]no one[/b], holds an empty hand like that unless they are a coin magician. It is by far my biggest pet peeve in magic.

You probably won't listen to me because I'm some nobody, but go people watching. Empty hands just drop to the side. They take part in gestures, and then return to the side.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Jul 15, 2015 08:35AM)
It's been a while since I've done the Miser's Dream, but when I did, I performed Charlie Miller's routine from Bobo. At one time, I used a kitchen coffee canister.

In the performance above, I also noticed the right hand. It's immobile, frozen, and calls attention to itself by that very fact.

I too am a bit uneasy criticizing a performance by Michael Rubinstein.

It's an interesting take on the Miser's Dream, but I think that part (and only part) of the appeal of the routine is that "clang" every time a coin is thrown into the pail, and that is missing in this approach.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jul 15, 2015 11:20AM)
Ummm, it looked to me as thought that arm in question was moving a bit, and that the other one was gesturing enough to draw attention that way, plus the people there were listening to the presentation, which also draws attention up that way and away from the right arm. But still, he gestured frequently with the right arm.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Jul 15, 2015 11:24AM)
Anyone interested in the Miser's Dream should get and study study study Levent's DVD. It truly is the "Ultimate Guide" that the title proclaims it to be.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 15, 2015 11:26AM)
Actually, I don't disagree with your observations. On camera, the hand does look a bit stiff, and that is because there is a need to hold out during the intro. I don't know that I entirely agree with smile, as I gesture with both hands and never leave my arm limp unless I am standing still or walking. Here it was an unusual situation, and I was asked to show my new bit to my staff, and needed to hold out until the magic began. In real time I do the trick as a closing number, and load up when I go into my pocket as I say I rap, to get out a chain with a big star of David (which I didn't have at the hospital). That being said, performing for the public is a bit different than having the hand burned on camera. The routine was also done a bit faster than usual, as I needed to perform during a busy workday witha lot of stuff going on at the hospital.
I only put it up here because I thought you guys would enjoy an example where the presentation supercedes the magic, and with the topic on the pail I thought it was topical. Ray, I always agree that the sound enhances the illusion. You can hear the coins clinking as they go into the hand, perhaps that is lost on the filming. Anyway, my hope was not to put this up for any other reason then just to have some fun.
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Jul 15, 2015 01:15PM)
I will say that it took me 3 seconds to realize you were holding a coin in your right hand. Your argument that you never have your hand limp is refuted by the first 2 seconds of that video. When you are not doing a magic trick your hand is at your side. The second the performance starts, it raises to an awkward position.

I'm not meaning to attack you or anything. This is just something I see so many top coin workers do, and I don't think any of them realize what they are telegraphing. 55% of what we communicate is nonverbal, and even if the spectator never consciously notices something, it still diminishes the effect.
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 15, 2015 01:38PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:
Anyone interested in the Miser's Dream should get and study study study Levent's DVD. It truly is the "Ultimate Guide" that the title proclaims it to be. [/quote]

It is a must have dvd...
Message: Posted by: MichaelJae (Jul 15, 2015 02:28PM)
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
[quote]On Jul 15, 2015, cheesewrestler wrote:
Anyone interested in the Miser's Dream should get and study study study Levent's DVD. It truly is the "Ultimate Guide" that the title proclaims it to be. [/quote]

It is a must have dvd... [/quote]

Levent performed his misers dream at a recent convention and fooled the heck out of most, if not all the attendees. His take on this classic is the best ive ever seen.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jul 16, 2015 04:11PM)
So my observations on mr. Rubinstein's performance weren't so bad
Message: Posted by: Ado (Jul 17, 2015 01:54AM)
[quote]On Jul 13, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
It usually takes 18 minutes to perform.
[/quote]

Wow. I guess the sound of the coins is what keeps them awake...

P!
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 17, 2015 07:59AM)
[quote]On Jul 17, 2015, Ado wrote:
[quote]On Jul 13, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
It usually takes 18 minutes to perform.
[/quote]

Wow. I guess the sound of the coins is what keeps them awake...

P! [/quote]
Did you see the routine to affirm that?
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 17, 2015 11:20AM)
Dick, looking forward to the book! Poof, that's a lot of coins. Are you doing it close up since you are using quarters? Funsway, I was going to use a cap in my own routine, but it was going to be a bit much for me to carry if I did a party or table hopping, so I abandoned the idea. I like the cap idea though! Ferran, sounds like that routine is the highlight of your act, would love to see a clip sometime! Smile, as I said I don't entirely agree, but that doesn't mean I disagree. Sometimes we do call unnessesary attention by artifical movements. My hand is down at the beginning because I am just waiting. But your observation certainly is something to consider, and I have noted other interesting observations from you in other posts.
I was hoping someone would mention David Ben's routine, as I am told he also does a version where the coins are placed into the hand instead of a pail. If anyone is familiar with this, and can tell me the source, that would be appreciated. Gotta admit though, I was surprised that not one positive comment came from the routine I put up. I wasn't fishing for compliments, but thought someone might have given a laugh or two.
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 17, 2015 03:52PM)
Michael, it is a great idea to place coins in the hand it gives a lovely and natural touch.
Message: Posted by: DallasFrank (Jul 20, 2015 07:17AM)
I personally enjoy Teller's version for its inventiveness.
I would like to see someone doing the entire T. Nelson Downs version.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (Jul 20, 2015 08:53AM)
I picked it all up with close up in mind. If I like it and it plays well I can get the better holdout/dropper for halves for about $30 and everything else could be used as is. May make the investment when I decide to do parlor type stuff.
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 20, 2015 10:38PM)
How many coins do you have to produce to be considered Misers Dream? Just wondering what the others here think.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 21, 2015 01:40AM)
Bairefoot -- first we have to agree on whether a container making a noise is essential. I don't think coins to hand is MIsers Dream,
but others seem to feel that a succession of productions placed anywhere qualifies.

I feel that more than three is required to give the illusion of "endless number," but at least 10 is best. A small container might logically limit the number.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Jul 21, 2015 09:23AM)
I agree with Funsway here. The jingling of coins in a hand is not the same as the "clank" of a coin being thrown into a metal bucket and the "jangling" created by shaking a metal container containing coins.

Think about the name of the effect. A "miser's dream" is not to create a certain amount of coins. It is to create an "endless" amount of coins. There are coins here, there are coins there, there are coins everywhere!

Also, every performance of Miser's Dream I've seen involves one or more audience members, there being a lot of play between the performer and spectator(s) (see Al Flosso's performance).
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 21, 2015 12:08PM)
The effect of Miser's Dream is to convey the illusion that you can magically get coins from anywhere. As long as you can establish that effect in the minds of your audience, the number of coins doesn't matter. that's the difference between a three or four coin production, and Miser's Dream. In my own routine I dump coins into my pocket from my hand and continue. I feel I have established the effect. A bucket, especially if gimmicked, can prolong the routine, and the noise can enhance the routine, but doesn't define the routine. So a hand, a glass, a hat, a shoe, a pocket, whatever can be used if the magician is creative and has a reason to use the object he desires. He just needs to establish the effect that he can get coins magically whenever he want to. There is no rule, only opinion, so no one is wrong here.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jul 21, 2015 03:10PM)
For an impromptu performance like Michael has done here, it seems natural to consider adding a Sylvester Pitch component, which is not only awesome, it could create an opportunity for a great 'final load' for a kicker ending.
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 21, 2015 04:30PM)
Ture Funsway.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 21, 2015 05:00PM)
Anyone ever do a reverse MD? Using a Spiral Purse frequently shown empty one can produce a continuous supply of coins of various sizes and types --

either to create a pile on a plate, or stopping to perform an effect with a couple of the coins. No special palming required.

I'm not saying this should be considered MD, only a way to capitalize on the obvious appeal of the "endless supply" theme.

(ebook in draft form without photos)
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Jul 21, 2015 05:57PM)
[quote] On Jul 21, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
In my own routine I dump coins into my pocket from my hand and continue. I feel I have established the effect. [T]he noise [from a bucket] can enhance the routine, but doesn't define the routine. So a hand, a glass, a hat, a shoe, a pocket, whatever can be used if the magician is creative and has a reason to use the object he desires. He just needs to establish the effect that he can get coins magically whenever he want to. [/quote]

I disagree with this statement. The noise produced from coins being tossed into a metal bucket does not "define" the routine, but is one of the factors that "makes" the routine. It is not the same as a hat, a shoe, a pocket. Why the louder noise of a metal bucket works better is indefinable (although the shaking of the coin-filled bucket may enhance the impression of a large amount of coins having been produced), as many things are. For instance, many laymen find sponge balls funny. They laugh when they open their hand and see an extra ball there. No one knows why they find this funny. It just is.

Also, the interplay between a spectator and the magician is important. Producing one coin after another is boring. Producing them from different parts of a spectator's body can be both magical and hilarious. Again, I refer to Al Flosso's performance, which can be seen on the Don Alan's Magic Ranch DVDs, but there are others (Capehart and McBride come to mind).

By the way, my criticism of your version of Miser's Dream has nothing to do with my admiration for your work. You are truly a great creator and teacher of coin magic.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 21, 2015 07:03PM)
Ray, thank you for the kind words, and we can agree to disagree. Audio always enhances an effect, and in most Miser's Dream routines such as the great Flosso routine you mention (and I had the privilege of buying my Bobo book from Al), the sound of a bucket is important since the routine is done on stage. My routine, although can be used on stage or parlour, is designed for close up. I could easily have extended the routine, but I thought more one liners would not add anything more (and if you saw my last Penguin lecture or see the new one I will be doing, one liners are part of my shtick). I also thought about a multi coin finish, but discarded the idea because I didn't want to work with loads. This routine closes one of my sets. Audience participation can be a lot of fun, especially with kids, but as you can tell from the story that is not my focus group. This is a close up routine that can be done walk around, and doesn't need extensive props outside of the bling I carry in my pocket to use as an excuse to load up. I discarded the idea of using a baseball cap for the sole reason that I didn't want to carry it around, although I experimented with that as well. In my routine I produced 11 coins, which is more than enough to establish the effect. And by the way, I can use a bucket for my routine but choose not to because I don't think it enhances my effect and again, one more thing to carry around. So, as I said, we can agree to disagree. By the way, I am by no means the only guy to use my hand for the coins. I only know of the David Ben routine, but I am sure it has been done many times before.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jul 21, 2015 09:58PM)
I haven't said anything, partly because Mr. Kam more or less "told" me, a month or so ago, that I don't know much about using a coin pail.

I have only shared the "work" on what I do with the MD with two other magicians. One of them, a full time pro., told me, "You can't rehearse this!" (and, I agreed!)

Now, it's in the book. There is nothing technically difficult! Basically, I use a finger palm, five silver dollars, and an ungimmicked pail, plus, a bit of SHOWMANSHIP.

As a teenager, infatuated with sleights, I used a glass and Downs palm (both hands) for several years. The magicians in Ring 103 thought I was Tommy Downs reincarnated! (I think that they were especially impressed with the Five Coin Star (both hands), and the four coin Coin Roll.)

But,an agent, on a "try out" date, said, "If you can make 'em laugh, I'll get you work." I decided that I would like to work. I cut out the "artistry". (Watch me do this clever stuff!). I made 'em laugh! They've been laughing for about 63 years.

I have no quarrel with those magicians who prefer doing the classy stuff! (I remember Geoffrey Buckingham!)

I just know what works for me, and my audiences!
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 21, 2015 10:35PM)
If they're laughing, you are entertaining, and that's what it's all about!!
I thought about getting a bucket for my routine...its on my bucket list. My first time out doing the trick, I had to succeed, I knew I couldn't pail......I am sure my routine pails compared to Flosso's. Al should have changed his name to Dental, I told him that but he brushed it off....OK, I'm done...for now...' :)
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Jul 22, 2015 12:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 21, 2015, Dick Oslund wrote:
I haven't said anything, partly because Mr. Kam more or less "told" me, a month or so ago, that I don't know much about using a coin pail.

I have only shared the "work" on what I do with the MD with two other magicians. One of them, a full time pro., told me, "You can't rehearse this!" (and, I agreed!)

Now, it's in the book. There is nothing technically difficult! Basically, I use a finger palm, five silver dollars, and an ungimmicked pail, plus, a bit of SHOWMANSHIP.

As a teenager, infatuated with sleights, I used a glass and Downs palm (both hands) for several years. The magicians in Ring 103 thought I was Tommy Downs reincarnated! (I think that they were especially impressed with the Five Coin Star (both hands), and the four coin Coin Roll.)

But,an agent, on a "try out" date, said, "If you can make 'em laugh, I'll get you work." I decided that I would like to work. I cut out the "artistry". (Watch me do this clever stuff!). I made 'em laugh! They've been laughing for about 63 years.

I have no quarrel with those magicians who prefer doing the classy stuff! (I remember Geoffrey Buckingham!)

I just know what works for me, and my audiences! [/quote]

I've never seen so much humble bragging in one post...
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jul 22, 2015 07:10AM)
Well, Smile&Nod...Perhaps when you've been around for 'awhile', you may have something to be humble about!

At least I write under my own name. I don't hide behind a pseudonym.
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 22, 2015 11:35AM)
Perform missers dream in a hat, cup, bucket or what ever without sound it's not the same that made it with sound of the falling coins. Specially on stage, if it does not sound it is not so mistifying as do in it with sound. So, the sound is a important part of the routine. Of corse the routine should be good enough to fool and entertaining spectators. Different procedures, handling and methods but without sound the routine is not the same.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 22, 2015 11:43AM)
Ferran, no one said the routine should be done without sound. In my close up routine the co8ns clink when they are dropped into the hand. That's enough for me.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Jul 22, 2015 12:24PM)
As has been pointed out many times before in many venues, how boring life would be if we all agreed!

I just feel that certain classics of magic have their own "gestalt," tricks like the linking rings, Miser's Dream, egg bag are more than the sum of their parts. These tricks are essentially the same trick over and over again--rings are linked and unlinked, coins are produced one after the other, an egg disappears and re-appears--and you either "get it" or you don't; you are either able to put it all together or not.

For instance, I've never done the egg bag. While I've worked with it and can do all the moves, something is missing. I'm just not able to grasp the trick as a whole.

Michael, I feel your version of Miser's Dream is not really the Miser's Dream any more than, say, Vernon's "Free and Unlimited Coinage of Silver" is the Miser's Dream. It is merely the production, one after another, of so many coins. It is missing that indefinable "something" that makes the Miser's Dream the Miser's Dream.

Since we are bragging a bit here, I got to know Al Flosso from going to his magic store in New York City in the late 1960s, early 1970s. At the time, I knew nothing about him. I could relate a couple of stories, but not here on an open forum.

Yes, at age 65, I'm a youngster to Dick Oslund, whose performance of the Miser's Dream I would love to see.
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 22, 2015 12:37PM)
[quote]On Jul 22, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Ferran, no one said the routine should be done without sound. In my close up routine the co8ns clink when they are dropped into the hand. That's enough for me. [/quote]


Michael, I am not complying just giving my point of view about the importance of the sound in stage. I like that you made clink the coin when you drop in the hand.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jul 22, 2015 03:10PM)
Yes. To obtain the auditory illusion, the coin(s) must be heard when it falls into the pail, (hat, or whatever).

It's not only the audio illusion, however. There is, IMHO, a certain psychological effect, also. Mr. Kam, a month or so ago, suggested to a "newbie" that, he hold the bucket "sideways", so that the coins could fall and strike the sides of he pail, etc. I could not possibly do that in my routine! Often the coin is "milked" out of a kid's ear or elbow, and allowed to fall into the pail. Gravity doesn't work "laterally". At least nowhere in the U.S. where I've worked, and I've worked coast to coast and border to border.

I enjoyed Michael's presentation, (here comes the BUT!:::but, I must agree with Ray Haining's point that, it's not "really" a Misers Dream in the classical sense.

I wrote that lengthy post above to express to others in the thread, my experience with the Misers Dream. I forgot to mention that, over the years, I was privileged to meet and get to know, Faucett Ross. Ross KNEW T. Nelson Downs. Downs had told Ross that, "The "entertainment" is NOT producing coins from the air. The "entertainment" is in the production of coins from children's ears, ETC."

About 1971, I was touring Iowa, Montour Iowa was on my itinerary. (Montour was Downs' home town.) It's a village! I found the "city hall", and asked the clerk if there was anyone named Downs living in the village. She consulted her files, and said, "Yes!" She gave me the address. I knocked on the door, and T. NELSON DOWNS answered my knock!!!
Well, it wasn't Tommy Downs. It was his nephew! The resemblance was striking. He invited me in for coffee, and we had a DELIGHTFUL afternoon.

I shared my "history" above. I was not bragging. I was telling "my" story, and "my" experience with 'the pail'. At 18, I was trying hard to be "swayve & deboner". I wasn't. That agent "splained" things very simply. $how bu$ine$$!!! He pointed out very briefly, and clearly, that MAGIC IS NOT INHERENTLY ENTERTAINING. It's the PERFORMER, and his PRESENTATION that makes it entertaining! "If you can make 'em laugh, I'll book you."

I saw Buckingham at the 1950 IBM Convention. He worked in the classic, dignified,style. (upstage center, against the backdrop) He must have produced a dozen coins from the
backpalm. The magicians applauded wildly. The lay audience: MEH!

My first mentor, Stuart Ross, did the "straight" Tarbell routine,--and sold it well. I followed Stuart! Then, from an old carnie I learned the Downs palm! If that agent hadn't said, "Make 'em laugh!", I might still be doing that "sophisticated" MD, but, I would not likely have made a living with magic!

My presentation certainly won't win any trophies at magic conventions, but it entertains my audiences!
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 22, 2015 11:03PM)
I don't think I will be able to get all of you to agree with me, but hey, I am gonna try. Let's use Matrix as an analogy. Every magician alive does a version of Matrix. Al Schneider, who took a coin assembly to the next level by developing Matrix, will argue that the countless variations are not Matrix, but the community tends to be comfortable with their own definition of what constitutes Matrix, and are comfortable enough to call their own variations by the same name. Now let's look at Miser's Dream. I am going to create a few scenarios, let me know what you think about each one.
1. Two Hobos are sitting on a Park bench. Soft sad music plays in the backround. One picks up a small garbage pail and empties it looking for food, but finds none. He reaches into the air, and finds a coin, which he drops into the pail. The other Hobo looks into the pail, amazed. Hobo one pulls a coin out of the elbow of Hobo 2, then one from behind his knee, dropping them into the pail each time. Hobo one then plucks another coin out of the air, takes one out of the nose of Hobo two, plucks a couple more coins out of the air, dropping them into the pail each time. He finds another one under the arm of Hobo 2, a few more from the air, and the last one from Hobo 2's mouth. They jingle the pail, then walk off stage to get something to eat with all the money they made. Total production, 11 coins. I think based on what everyone said here, you all would agree that this is a very nice presentation of the classic Miser's Dream (And all rights reserved!).
2. One Hobo is on the bench. He empties the pail as before, and uses the same moves but instead of finding the coins on Hobo 2, he finds the coins on his own body, dropping them into the pail each time. Same trick, one person. Still Miser's Dream?
3. Two Hobos on the bench. Instead of using a pail, Hobo one takes off his shoe and uses it to drop in the coins. Otherwise same as version one, with coins plucked out of the air and off of Hobo two. Still Miser's Dream?
4. One Hobo on the bench. Instead of a pail, he uses his shoe. Same moves as in version one, but he is using his shoe instead of a pail, and producing the coins from the air and his own body. Still Miser's Dream?

Up till now we are showcasing the same moves. Only difference is that there are one or two people, and a pail or a shoe.

5. Two Hobos on the bench. Same moves as first version, but putting the coins into his hand instead of a pail. Still Miser's Dream?
6. One Hobo on a bench. Same moves as with version one, but no pail or shoe, just his hand. Still Miser's Dream?
7. One Hobo on a bench. Same moves as version one, but now he doesn't look like a Hobo. he looks like Michael Rubinstein, only not as good looking as the real deal, and sings a rap song while using the same moves as in version one, but the coins go into his hand. Still Miser's Dream?

So we have seven scenarios, where the exact same moves are used, and 11 coins are produced each time. The difference is that one or two people are used, and the receptacle is either a pail, a shoe, or a hand. Same moves. I submit that each version is a variation of the first, and is still the Miser's Dream, just as every variation of a four coin assembly using cards is a variation of Matrix (and I know Al Schneider disagrees with this, but I am using it to make a point).
OK, Ray, Dick, Funsway, Smile, Ferran, and anyone else, Let's see what you've got :)
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Jul 23, 2015 12:10AM)
I think any routine where the magician produces coins as "money" instead of as props constitutes a Miser's Dream. I don't even think it needs to be more than one. If in the middle of an act the magician stops, looks in front of him, grabs a coin and puts it in the pocket and makes a joke about how he needed bus fare for later I would consider it a "Miser's Dream"

I also think it's silly to argue about the semantics of what defines a "Miser's Dream Routine". One of my favorite stories Richard Feynman would tell is how his father taught him that you can know the name of a bird in a hundred different languages, and not know anything about the bird. You can argue that one style is more effect for this and that, but to draw an arbitrary line and say this is a Miser's Dream routine but that isn't just seems pointless to me.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 23, 2015 02:32AM)
Some interesting thoughts focusing on "message" rather than objects. Yet, some ability to classify magic effects would seem useful.
Any magician leafing though a new magic book and finding a heading "Misers Dream" would have some expectation of the effects described therein.

Certainly, any performer can take one of those effects and put their own spin on it, but what should fall under that heading in a book on magic?

One factor not explored here is the "dream" aspect. At the end there are no coins in the container -- it was just a dream. At least in the classic version.

But most performers now allow for other endings including a verification of count and surprise final load. Some prefer to display the coins produced before the ending, possibly transferring them to another location.

While the idea of "sound" to confirm the drop in the bucket seems common, how much of that importance is determined by the planned ending?

If you are going to end with nothing a lot of noise along the way can add to the surprise. Less so if you produce 11 coins and end up with 11 coins on the table.
.......

Michael's scenarios had be remember watching street people pick up cigarette butts in a park for later stripping and assembly into a full cigarette.

Could be a good effect. 1-15 butts found in unlikely places and dropped into a paper cup. Later they all vanish or become a cigar. Might be entertaining and a dream sequence, but would it be Misers Dream?

Cigarettes are used as money, so "SmileandNod" might agree. Would it be be more of a "dream" is the character was a hippie type foraging the ground after a rock concert?

No -- just kidding. But would a spectator find it lass magical because you didn't use metal coins?
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 23, 2015 08:16AM)
Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream?
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 23, 2015 07:18PM)
You just need to produce enough coins to establish the effect in the minds of your audience. The routine you do will dictate that amount.
Message: Posted by: cheesewrestler (Jul 23, 2015 07:35PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
I don't think I will be able to get all of you to agree with me, but hey, I am gonna try. [/quote]

Why?
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 23, 2015 09:24PM)
Why am I gonna try, or why doesn't everyone agree with me. Don't know. What do you think?
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jul 23, 2015 09:32PM)
Getting a bucket is on your bucket list: Love that.

i had some comments a long time ago in this thread in which I liked your routine, and I still do, Mr. Rubinstein
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 24, 2015 05:32PM)
Thank you Fonda! Still waiting for someone to disprove my statement.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 24, 2015 06:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
You just need to produce enough coins to establish the effect in the minds of your audience. The routine you do will dictate that amount. [/quote]


OK. I'll bite. You have no way to know when the idea is established in their mind. You can rely on experience. intuition, and a read of signals form the given audience and may still not be correct.

But, I see no way you can "design a routine" with this knowledge before hand. Your assumption cannot "dictate" anything.

I was told about 50 years ago when I was practicing a MD routine, "Prepare to produce 20 coins. Then cut it short when the amusement wears off and change to the surpise ending."

So, I agree with your first sentence and disagree to the second. Is that half objection or half concurrence? (I have only rarely produced all 20)
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jul 24, 2015 07:02PM)
I think what he means, in part, is the that the audience is not familiar with Miser's Dream effects, and is therefore expecting a bucket or a hat or anything. So they see the routine for what it is.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 24, 2015 10:21PM)
Funsway, I was referring to my statement that the seven scenarios I listed were in fact all variations of the Miser's Dream routine, but what you say is technically true. There is no was for a performer to absolutely know if he has established the effect in the minds of the audience, unless he takes a poll or talks to each person who witnessed the routine. HOWEVER, I submit to you again that in fact, with experience in developing, performing and refining your routines, you can get a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. Most performers live with their routines and they get refined through repeat performance. That is good enough for me, and I would hazard to say the same for all performers.
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 24, 2015 10:24PM)
Here's my Miser's Dream for close-up. I produce 4 coin 4 different ways. I say I could do this all day but I have get to the others guest. I then do a coins across routine. I then product a glass of wine to finish the routine. If I don't have a glass of wine I put the coins back in the air. Sometimes I produce the 4 coins and say here let do this a little faster and produce a dollar bill then change it into a $100. Your Miser's Dream needs to be adaptable to real world situations. But this is just my thought.

Bairefoot
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 25, 2015 04:58AM)
Good enough for me too, Michael. I just like to adapt to the audience rather than "have the routine dictate."

Bairefoot - I would agree that having a MS approach segue into another effect is valid and good routining. The 'dream component" can be satisfied
by the observer later telling the story, "this guy grabbed coins from nowhere and then showed us how magical they were."

The number of coins produced becomes minor compared with the memory of magic.

As a side-bar, the noisy production of coins can be an effective method of focusing attention away fro other distractions and establishing yourself as a magician --
as a lead-in to your signature effect. The number seen to be produced might vary from spectator to spectator but the idea of "endless supply" satisfied.

Is it really MD when uses a part of a larger, flowing routine? I don't know -- but will do it anyway.

Perhaps this validates Michael's point above in that your entire performance might dictate the actual number produced. What number will the audience remember? That is an illusion anyway.
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 25, 2015 01:35PM)
I am sorry what does MS approach mean. Right now I am working on producing coins on stage with a wine glass. Then I want to go to my coin ladder (never used it once, had for 2 years now).

Bairefoot
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 25, 2015 02:51PM)
Sorry - typo -- should be MD
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 25, 2015 08:25PM)
Oh thanks
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Jul 25, 2015 09:08PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream? [/quote]
How much sand is a pile?
Message: Posted by: Ferran Rizo (Jul 25, 2015 09:33PM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream? [/quote]
How much sand is a pile? [/quote]


Well, my friend. Clever question. I think that It depend of the person. To my a pile of sand is one thing but to you can be other thing.
Message: Posted by: SmileAndNod (Jul 25, 2015 10:00PM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream? [/quote]
How much sand is a pile? [/quote]

I would ask Sorites.
Message: Posted by: ZachDavenport (Jul 25, 2015 10:34PM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, SmileAndNod wrote:
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, ZachDavenport wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 2015, Ferran Rizo wrote:
Interesting point Michael. Misser dream is a production of coins, not cigars not cards, but coins. I think that it does not matter where you conceal produced coins. You can keep on hand, in a cap, hat, shoe... But if I produce one coin, it is a missers dream? I think it is not it is a single coin production. But if I produce two coins. Is missers dream? I think it is a two coin production instead of misser dream. And three? Or four? How many coins we need in order to be a missers dream? [/quote]
How much sand is a pile? [/quote]

I would ask Sorites. [/quote]
I would, but I never got into bizarre magic.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 26, 2015 03:58AM)
I have reviewed a 1934 manuscript of a Miser's Dream routine (note apostrophe) in which this effect is described as "very popular"
and suitable for all ages. The approach offered is supposed to be simpler and allow more personal variety than common methods.

It is somewhat difficult to understand as it assumes many things in "common knowledge" not described, but some thoughts appeal to me:

1) the first coins produced and dropped are designed to establish a pattern linking production/reveal, sound and making the pail natural,
2) a different method is used for each production and drop to make the hand irrelevant to the process,
3) five productions are used for this purpose while changing the pail from hand to hand and set on the table for the final one. Three of these are visual drops and two faked with a pail rattle.
4) only after the pattern has been established do you speed up and produced any number of coins desired using simpler techniques including no coins at all.

The techniques of a "continuous production of a single coin using two coins" and the pail on the table is described with the coin drop inferred by sound.

Such techniques may be well known and shared in some of popular DVD packages, but there is a special impact on me ...

Once the audience accepts the illusion of a coin being produced and dropped into the pail with a sound, they will supply the illusion later even if you do not do it!

How many is enough? Five is offered here as a minimum (but not stated). The maximum is as many as the audience imagination and engagement will allow.

One move seems special. The coin is produced in the right hand and tossed to the left and then dropped into the pail (clank). This breaks the suspicion that the hand holding the pail is important.

So, the production of a different coin can be faked, the drop and sound can be faked, or the existence of the coin can be faked -- just not in the same phase.
Once the pattern is established any one part can be faked and the audience will supply the missing component.

The Dream is theirs!

Is today's audience different in expectations and appreciation of magic? That is a different problem.

My gut feeling is that 5-10 coins is enough if followed by another effect, with more only appropriate as a closing act.

I see no problem with producing four coins, doing a "coins across" and then continuing with the MD.

With that thought, even the use of the hand as a pail is acceptable to me -- with the produced coins apparently or actually placed elsewhere.

I guess that using the MD approach as a stand alone effect bothers me -- not sure why.
Message: Posted by: Bairefoot (Jul 26, 2015 11:55AM)
Funswaqy that's how I try and perform my MD. I do it 4 nights right now doing my big Resort Shows and close 3 times a week at Angelo's.

Thanks for all the information.

Bairefooot
Message: Posted by: BeachCat (Jul 26, 2015 12:51PM)
My favorite production of MD is by Andrew Goldenhersh. He's so talented and performs it flawlessly. I think you can find a video of this on youtube if anyone is interested.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Jul 28, 2015 04:11AM)
Hey folks,
in the Sidewalk Shuffle forum,..
two or three south of here;
Nala just put up a film clip,
performing a Miser's Dream,
on the broadwalk....
"Father/ Daughter"
is titled the thread.
,might want to check it out.
It received really good,,.
honest re-action.
It's a surprising pleasure.
gallagher
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Jul 29, 2015 04:45AM)
This has been a most interesting discussion!

At the risk of sounding a bit "flippant", I'll add a thought.

The late Jack Benny was without a doubt, a brilliant comedian. Talking about comedy, he said, "Comedy is like a soap bubble. When you attempt to get inside it, to examine it, it's gone!"

"We" have now dissected and analyzed the Aerial Treasury, as much as it has ever been analyzed before. (I think!)

In my subjective opinion, the MD is the apparently unlimited production of coins from "the air", as well as from a kid's ear, etc.

Tommy DOWNS told Faucett ROSS that the ENTERTAINMENT "came" from producing coins(s) from a kid's ear.

About 65 years ago, I had learned the DOWNS P*lm. As noted above, at 18, I tried to be suave & debonair, I wasn't.) Magicians were ecstatic over the artistic production, the "paying customers" were not. When my agent said, "Make 'em laugh, and, I'll get you work!" I listened. I dropped the champagne glass, and picked up the pail.

"Old fashioned"? Perhaps I am, but, I aint gonna change.
Message: Posted by: harris (Jul 29, 2015 05:56AM)
I borrow expressions from other areas in entertainment.

One of my favorites comes from playing musical instruments.

"The schtick is as important as the lick."

Harris

With Palms of aluminum foil, for a lighter touch in coin magic
Message: Posted by: Lawrens Godon (Jul 29, 2015 12:50PM)
The Miser's Dream by Lee Grabel :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybvD-8uaaS8

http://www.vanishlive.com/magic-news/2015/07/28/broken-wand-lee-grabel/
Message: Posted by: Magnus Eisengrim (Jul 29, 2015 02:55PM)
[quote]On Jul 14, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
For you guys who do the effect, here is my take. Hope you enjoy!!
http://youtu.be/uQcenD0YOZo [/quote]

I laughed a lot. Thanks!

To answer the original question, I've been struggling to get a Miser's Dream going for a couple of years, but I haven't got a rhythm or structure that I feel comfortable with. One day...
Message: Posted by: Hare (Aug 2, 2015 11:55AM)
I think this is a very nice and quite rewarding thread. The good Doctor's routine, I thought, was quite entertaining, and I feel that it does indeed qualify as being a "Miser's Dream" routine. It's just an informal, close-up version of this classic bit of coin chicanery.

Tommy Downs certainly performed a version of a "pocket Miser's Dream" himself using his brilliant "Eureka Pass". It involved no receptacle except his receiving hand, and it covered the basic production and then vanishing of multiple coins out of and into thin air.

"The Miser's Dream" is really just about the idea of creating endless money from the air, in my opinion. "Endless" is mostly just a quality of how effortlessly you appear to produce the coins, and the "miserly" aspect is the magician's apparent joy at being able to do so. Sound and bucket are optional tools used to add exclamation points the further away you are from the audience, and the larger that audience is from you.

One can argue quite logically that the bucket only is a requirement of the stage, and that the original version of the trick perhaps actually happened with a borrowed stiff beaver hat. I think it is quite reasonable to adapt this trick to the times- you use whatever receptacle is apt for the location you are at. Maybe a beer pitcher in a bar, or your pocket on the move in a restaurant.

My pocket is my own preferred receptacle for the trick.

I don't think the pail should not define the trick, and the closer you are to the audience, the less sound becomes a crucial part of the effect. Sure, it still adds to the charm and fun- but on the stage it is absolutely critical. When you are among a small group, not so much. The way the Doc uses sound here, adds very nice and fairly subtle punctuation to his proceedings without jarring the viewer.

I personally think that if a person is "working intimately", you are better off using edge palm, rather than Down's palm for this effect, which is how I proceed with it. Edge palm is out of favor and seldom used- but it is much more natural looking if one is opening the routine with a lot of fun patter. I believe that the more you talk before producing coins, the more reason there is to be using edge palm with this effect. You can work with multiple coins. You avoid being thumbless or stiff looking using EP, and the routine is just as effective otherwise, unless you want to face the audience. It is superior to classic palm because you have much better coin control in producing the coins individually.

I also agree that the Sylvester Pitch is a perfectly stunning tool to use amidst this routine, as is the Down's Eureka-pass mechanics. I like to incorporate both. It breaks up the one way production and adds intrigue into the proceedings if used sparingly.

Just my two-Morgans on the subject. Very fun stuff, Doc!
Message: Posted by: Tom the Enchanter (Aug 7, 2015 06:25PM)
I enjoyed Dr. Rubinstein's routine. It looked like a Miser's Dream to me. I don't think a bucket is necessary for it to be classified as such, but that's just my own humble opinion.

I performed the Miser's Dream this weekend for a group of kids and adults, though it was mostly adults. I had the kids sit in the front row, and after I had produced 4 or 5 coins with the bucket still sitting on the table, I then picked up the bucket and started producing coins from the kids' ears and hair and so-forth. It was a pretty standard routine. However, I did close the trick by vanishing all the coins. Levent demonstrates that closing in his excellent Ultimate Miser's Dream DVD set. This was a church setting and so the vanish at the end fit with a "message" I was trying to convey. But everyone had a good time and seemed to be genuinely mystified. The kids were definitely enthusiastic.