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Topic: Cleanest coin switch ever?
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 24, 2015 05:05PM)
Hi guys, here's a video of a coin switch I developed around 35 years ago. It's finally going to be released shortly. I've used two slightly contrasting coins otherwise nobody would believe there was a switch.

The Chandaue switch in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnNL540LI9g

Mark
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 24, 2015 06:16PM)
Not clear what you are attempting to accomplish here.

If it is to "Switch in/out a gaff" it could be very impressive.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 24, 2015 07:02PM)
I'm attempting to accomplish the basic purpose of a coin switch, to switch one coin for another without appearing to have switched it. I thought the use of contrasting coins in the video for demonstration purposes would make that obvious.

Pretty much as might be done with the bobo switch or any other switch. It could be used to switch in or out a gaff such as a copper silver coin, switch a borrowed coin for one with a known date for a date prediction or to switch a straight coin for a bent coin. Realistically it could be used for any of the multitude of reasons a coin worker may wish to secretly switch one coin for another.

Over the years my most common uses for it have been to perform tricks requiring gaffed coins using "borrowed coins", during my copper silver routine both for ringing in the copper silver coin and to switch the copper coin for the silver and vice versa and for coin bends. The switch is usually performed in the act of taking the coin from a spectators hand rather than from the table as in the video.

Mark
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jul 24, 2015 10:35PM)
I think coins of greater contrast(like a Chinese with a hole to a half) would better make your point
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jul 25, 2015 01:10AM)
Mark, with the similarity of the coins and the narrow (iPhone?) video window, it is difficult to see just what's happening.

Thank you.

Jim
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 25, 2015 04:43AM)
Thanks for the clarification -- and I support what you are trying to do.

For years I have played with effects in which a coin (or other object) changes form before a spectator's very eyes.
or example, when a coin is my left hand it is copper and silver when tossed to my right hand -- then back and forth.

For the observer they "switch" rather than transform, just as a person switches personality for various settings.

I found that the "change" is not always obvious even when the appearance is obvious to me. This is possible the fault of predictive vision.

Thus, finding a "cleaner switch" may not matter to an audience in most cases.

Yet, I am excited about any new "invisible switch" method so that I can vary my method during a routine, because repetition can be revealing or suspicious.

Even misdirection or "directed focus" can fail if a lot of switches are made in a routine or show.

I want to see more. As teaching method, though -- oversell that change in form so that we can understand what is happening.

Not on a public forum, of course.
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 25, 2015 05:45AM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, J-Mac wrote:
Mark, with the similarity of the coins and the narrow (iPhone?) video window, it is difficult to see just what's happening.

Thank you.

Jim [/quote]

Jim the similarity of the coins is to demonstrate how invisible the switch is in action, the slight difference in coins is to prove a switch actually took place. The point is that there is absolutely nothing to see because the switch is so clean. I don't know of any other coin switch that an experienced coin worker would need contrasting coins to spot when a camera is burning the hands and the fact that a switch is being performed is openly stated. It's nothing to do with the iPhone camera, it's just as invisible face to face.

When performing a coin bend with a pre-bent coin a switch is the obvious solution unless the switch is so clean as to completely rule out the possibility of a switch. Likewise for a date prediction. In fact my date prediction rules out a switch by firstly allowing the spectator a completely free choice of the denomination of coin to hand me after the prediction has been written and then using this switch to ring in my a coin with a matching date thanks to an index.

Here is an example of the switch used as a coin bend. The switch isn't quite as smooth here because I was too busy focussing on holding the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS5JY4_I2jw

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 25, 2015 06:38AM)
Just to give a little history to this switch. Many moons ago Eddie Gibson put out a coin to impossible location that had them sign a coin and even though the coin never left their sight it managed to appear sealed inside a case that was on display before the coin vanished. It relied on a gaff that allowed only the signed part of the coin to be stolen while the rest of the coin remained in full sight. I was a pureist back then and so wanted to be able to achieve it without gaffs. So I needed a switch so clean that the spectator absolutely believed that they were actually looking at their coin right up to the moment it vanished. This was what I came up with and it did the job well.

It had the added benefit that at conventions I could have fun fooling other magicians performing a full copper silver routine apparently with only a borrowed copper coin and a borrowed silver coin. Items that are in abundance at a convention. Never once did anyone call me on ringing in a copper/silver coin although Michael Vincent and John Carey and one or two others were in on the secret because I shared the switch with them. Other than a few close friends I have kept this for myself for over 30 years. I am finally releasing this in my book that is being released later this year. The switch is actually relatively easy, if you can classic palm a coin you should be able to perform this switch with only a reasonable amount of practice. This isn't one of those moves that requires knuckle busting moves that take years to master.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 25, 2015 12:48PM)
Most of us understand the difference between an effective secret switch and a transformation.

How's the get-ready and how often do you use the apparent action in your style of coin handling?

Would you use that switch to clean up after the climax of a cigarette through quarter routine? Or coin in bottle?
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 25, 2015 01:22PM)
The get ready is almost instantaneous you simply have to get the coin you want to switch into classic Palm. These days I only do Mentalism so I only use the switch for a date prediction, a coin bend and to ring in a double tailed coin. However when I was doing coins my main uses were to ring in and then clean up gaffed coins. So I would use it for a cig thru quarter by borrowing a quarter and performing the switch as I took the quarter from the spectator (although here it was a 10p piece). I might use it also to clean up but more commonly I used it to ring something in rather than out. Because the switch happens the moment you take the coin and your hands are seen clearly empty it takes the heat right off the coin so switching it out is easy. To ring in my copper silver coin I would hand them the half dollar to look at (not examine) because in the UK it is an unusual coin, I'd hand it to them commenting on what a beautiful coin it is. I'd then take it back performing the switch as I handed them the penny asking if they remembered them (when I was a coin guy old English pennies had only gone out of circulation in the last 10 years). While they looked at the old penny I'd openly transfer the c/s coin silver side up to my left hand. Now when I took the penny from their hand I'd switch the penny for the real half dollar whilst opening my left hand to show the c/s coin penny side up. Instant transpo and the half dollar could immediately be seen both sides.

Watch that switch and imagine we don't have the slight difference in coins, when my hand turns palm up the spectator is absolutely convinced they are still looking at their coin. From this point it is important to handle it in such a way that it never leaves their sight. Push the cig through the coin and as far as they are concerned you just pushed the cig through the coin they just handed you. Now let's look at the effect I designed the switch for, they take out the coin and sign the heads side, the coin is on their palm heads side up so the sig can dry. You take the coin as in that vid and it is now on your palm up hand tails side up (that was one of my criteria, the switch had to logically result in the opposite side of the coin showing at the end). Even though the signature is now hidden the spectator is absolutely convinced they are still looking at their coin. Let the coin slide off your palm onto the table never leaving their sight and have them place their index finger onto it. Now introduce your nest of boxes or whatever you want to produce the coin from. Now the spectator is holding a nest of boxes that you will never go near and they are absolutely convinced that their signed coin has not left their sight.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 25, 2015 02:45PM)
*Tact time - maybe even diplomacy? Here goes:

Hi Mark,

First, thanks for posting the videos of your work in action. And for keeping a focus on performing magic for audiences. In this craft it's refreshing to read that someone's been exploring to find what works and using that in performance for a long time. Kudos and bravo!

When bringing an item into the literature of our craft it helps to find how the item relates to existing knowledge and how it extends existing capabilities. Watching your videos reminded me of time spent around Fred C. Baumann back at the magic shop long ago. He was a champion of a sleight found in The New Modern Coin Magic by J. B. Bobo (hard cover enlarged edition). When describing your methodology, you might do well to address how your work extends the functionality of what's described on page one hundred and eleven. On the next page in that book you may also find some related effort to shunt traffic when using that sort of method in coin magic.

Feel free to PM or or email if you like. The academic / book side of this craft is a resource and represents the best recorded efforts of those who would share their discoveries at the time.

Best wishes,

JonT
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 25, 2015 03:40PM)
Hi Jon,
In the book although aimed at mentalists it does indeed reference and credit bobo's for the elements that were inspired by reading that very book likewise it also references Richard Kaufmans Coinmagic for later refinements that came as a result of the pages of that book. However when all is said and done it is simply a coin switch although a very nice and deceptive switch.

Whilst my book has effects that rely on the deceptiveness of this particular switch, when all is said and done, it is just a utility, something else to add to ones arsenal to be used as best suits the performer. I developed it for my own personal use because I had a specific need, necessity is the mother of invention. I have kept it to myself for over 30 years. The book I am currently writing is a mentalism book and the switch is taught for use in the mentalism routines included in the book which include a date prediction and a coin bend.

The coin bend is a little more involved than is shown in the brief demo video. There is also another coin bend in the book that also owes no small part to bobo's book, a book which in today's world of DVD's is often overlooked and undervalued by the youngsters coming up today.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 25, 2015 09:18PM)
Unfortunately my bobo's is the 1966 hardback edition and I think the pages aren't quite in the same places as yours but I suspect we are in the same ball park. That particular methodology was my field of expertise. I did a lot of work in that area from 78 to the early 90's particularly in using it for things that would not traditionallu use that methodology. Alas much of my coin work will probably never see the light of day. I did give Michael Ammar permission to publish some of it around 91 but the book he was planning never saw the light of day.

Much of it I can't even do anymore, the reason I moved to mentalism is that my hands don't work that well anymore and they are getting worse rather than better. Not counting the switch, my personal favourite was the International reverse matrix using only 4 coins, half dollar, penny, Chinese coin and US dollar (today I'd use a euro). To be fair that was mostly an intellectual challenge because someone said it would be impossible to do with only 4 coins and no additional coins. I did share that with David Neighbours around 4 years ago but whether he stored it in his memory banks with the hundreds of other variants he knows I don't know.

Coins were my first love and to be honest no longer being able to do most of the things I once could due to the hands no longer willing to play ball is a source of sadness. 20 years ago I could classic palm a grain of rice, these days anything smaller than a half dollar is a struggle. Fortunately with mentalism I have found a way to continue performing despite the ever decreasing dexterity in my hands. Whilst the hands don't work my mind is still sharp and mentalism allows me an avenue to stretch my creative muscles without the physical limits that age now inflicts on me. It's also nice to go back to being a beginner again despite my original journey starting in 1967.

Mark
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 26, 2015 04:16AM)
We should produce a book "Arthritis and Beyond" or "Old Fart Magic"

I can't do 80% of hat I ustacould -- so I invent new sleights and moves.

Kudos to you for "pressing on."

Sorry for my confusion above -- my memories outstrip my hands.
Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Jul 26, 2015 05:18AM)
I can contribute to the "Old Fart with bad hands" book!

Jim
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 26, 2015 08:56AM)
They used to laugh when I dropped a fork on the floor. Now they applaud when I get through a meal without doing so.

Which trick do I practice? Yesterday I heard "totally old person" say, "Any day that is upright is all right."

I'll bet he knows some magic!

back to the OP -- I'll work on this new switch just because I can. Success is not a requirement.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 26, 2015 12:28PM)
Mark, back in 1986 I put out the Knockout Coin Magic video/ now dvd set which had an international reverse Matrix using only 4 different coins. It wasn't the first published though. I think it was Harry Levine who put one out in Mike Ammar's Encore series if memory serves correctly.
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jul 26, 2015 12:35PM)
When is your book going to be released mark?

kieran
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 26, 2015 01:48PM)
I'm hoping for later this year Kieran, getting all the crediting and permissions has been time consuming. I'm considering doing the coin stuff as a video download as well because the coin stuff would be easier to learn on video and would have a wider appeal whilst the rest will only be of interest to mentalists.

That's interesting Michael, I might have to see if I can track down copies of those. I came up with mine In the early 80s although I doubt I could date it. I'd be Interested to view those as I can't figure out any other solution to have all 4 coins return to their initial positions instantly with only 4 coins. I'd be surprised if you me and Harry came up with the same solution especially as David said he hadn't seen my version before. David is so knowledgable on the matrix that I'm sure he is aware of yours and Harry's. Even though I don't do coins anymore that problem took some solving. Also we may not be talking about the same thing as I believe at some point the effect that was initially known as a reverse matrix became known as something like a SnapBack matrix and reverse matrix describes a different effect these days.

Just to be clear the effect I am referring to starts as a normal matrix however on the last coin all 4 coins appear instantly in their original places. If there are two other versions out there that achieve this with 4 different denominations of coins and no additional coins I would be intrigued as to how they achieve this without additional coins because I can't see another solution and so would love to know how others solved the problem from a purely intellectual standpoint.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jul 26, 2015 03:59PM)
You can also find my version on the NYCMS dvd series, and in my Penguin Live lecture, a available as a download from Penguin, and soon to be released as a dvd. The Knockout Coin Magic 3 volume dvd is sold by L&L. It was originally in my lecture notes from the early eighties.
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jul 26, 2015 08:17PM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2015, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
Unfortunately my bobo's is the 1966 hardback edition and I think the pages aren't quite in the same places as yours but I suspect we are in the same ball park. That particular methodology was my field of expertise.
Mark [/quote]


The page numbering is identical, up through the end of the paperback version. Yet, I can understand why you may think otherwise. I at least am unsure of what Jonathan was referring to.

John
Message: Posted by: dj (Jul 27, 2015 06:03AM)
@ Mark
Uses your Coin Switch the same method as can be seen here in the video of Persus Arkomanis?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TyldTHJIvOE#t=83
The difference is, in the video of Persus Arkomanis a coin just disappears.


dj
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 27, 2015 08:47AM)
Not sure exactly how what Mark is doing here is done but have some thoughts on it, as his excitement about it seems to say that it works differently from how it appears…I don't know but just hope it's something more than what I have thought from the little I know of things. Anyway, I look forward to his book. Best of luck with it. :)

As to Persus Arkomanis in the video here (thanks dj), :) well, his methods to do all of what he's doing is something that I have sang the praises of since for always on this forum. :D

Some of the big names that laud his work there tell basically of the great deception he plays with, and very well I must say. :) You can do all sorts of things with it, I know because I use it a bit myself when I'm as "prepared," and love it! :D

*One trick he does there, "Coin Thru Glass Table" looks a lot like something that Michael Eaton put out a while back now -Anyone remember that one? Looks to be done about the same way sorta, to me. Wonder if Persus knows that?

Truth be told here, I've never heard of Persus before (but I probably haven't heard of a lot of folks), :D but he's quite good and I enjoy watching him work here, as I happen to also love his particular method as to coin magic…It's still very much one of the absolute best IMHO, especially when done well like that. :)
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jul 27, 2015 10:04AM)
I am not sure what Mark is doing in his video, but Persus Arkomanis seems to be doing what was described in the above mentioned section of Bobo, but he does it sooooo well, so smooth, so covered. Then again, maybe it is a totally different method.

Mark: although your intent is to use your sleight as what some call an invisible switch, for purposes of getting comments from the Café community, better contrasting coins, and a static focus of the camera would help. Beyond that, send a PM to someone who is well versed in coin work, like MB or Michael, and see if they would interact more directly with your work.

Best;
John
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 27, 2015 11:29AM)
Hi John,
I posted it purely for demonstration purposes. My intent isn't to use it, my intent is to share it with the community, I have already been using it successfully for over 35 years. I am more than well versed enough in coin magic for the purposes of this switch despite no longer following or performing coin magic these days. I first shared this switch with Bobby Bernard in around 1979, Bobby was more than well versed enough in coin magic back then as was I to be honest. Since then it has been shared with Michael Vincent and a few other friends in the early 80's including John Carey. Michael Ammar was granted permission to publish it in 1991 for a project he was planning that never came to fruition.

These days I use it purely in a Mentalism context and it does exactly what I need it to do just as it did when I used it for coin magic. The video does exactly what I intended it to do, it demonstrates how invisible the switch is whilst proving that one actually took place. When I have demonstrated the switch to magicians in person they generally don't believe I really switched the coin. That's all the feedback I need.

Mark
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 27, 2015 11:43AM)
Hi mark you state you want to share with the community
I(m not sure what you are doing
however if you want to share can you show us the handling

VINNY
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Jul 27, 2015 11:43AM)
Hi mark you state you want to share with the community
I(m not sure what you are doing
however if you want to share can you show us the handling

VINNY
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 27, 2015 11:47AM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2015, Mb217 wrote:
Not sure exactly how what Mark is doing here is done but have some thoughts on it, as his excitement about it seems to say that it works differently from how it appears…I don't know but just hope it's something more than what I have thought from the little I know of things. Anyway, I look forward to his book. Best of luck with it. :)[/quote]
Why hope the method is anything other than practical and within easy reach? Methods are always secondary to the effect as seen by the spectator. Methods need not be clever or unique they merely need to be fit for purpose and practical. In the case of this switch (and any other switch for that matter) how it appears to the spectator is the important thing, the how is not important beyond is it practical, reliable and workable.

As to the book, unfortunately it will only really be of interest to mentalists there is very little in there beyond this coin switch that would appeal to magicians even the coin effects that utilise the switch in the book would not be of much interest to coin magicians as they are mentalism effects. There are some subtleties in the coin bend routine that may be of interest but generally there are far more impressive coin routines in bobo's or Kaufmans than can be found in the pages of my book. However people have been pushing me to release the switch for donkeys years and so I am finally doing so. If people wish to use it great, if they don't that's great too but it has served me well for many many years.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mark_Chandaue (Jul 27, 2015 11:50AM)
Vinny,
If you meet me in person I will be more than happy to show you the handling, this is true of the full contents of my book. Otherwise the handling will be fully detailed in the book and I will probably put this out as a video download along with the coin effects from my book and some other coin material not suited to my book in the near future.

Mark
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 27, 2015 01:38PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2015, Mark_Chandaue wrote:
[quote]On Jul 27, 2015, Mb217 wrote:
[b]...Anyway, I look forward to his book. Best of luck with it. :)[/b][/quote]

Why hope the method is anything other than practical and within easy reach? Methods are always secondary to the effect as seen by the spectator. Methods need not be clever or unique they merely need to be fit for purpose and practical. In the case of this switch (and any other switch for that matter) how it appears to the spectator is the important thing, the how is not important beyond is it practical, reliable and workable.

As to the book, unfortunately it will only really be of interest to mentalists there is very little in there beyond this coin switch that would appeal to magicians even the coin effects that utilise the switch in the book would not be of much interest to coin magicians as they are mentalism effects. There are some subtleties in the coin bend routine that may be of interest but generally there are far more impressive coin routines in bobo's or Kaufmans than can be found in the pages of my book. However people have been pushing me to release the switch for donkeys years and so I am finally doing so. If people wish to use it great, if they don't that's great too but it has served me well for many many years.

Mark [/quote]

I am one that believes in "easy reach," less is more," and the simpler the better, since specs don't know exactly what you're doing anyway, and neither do they care really. They simply respond to the magic of it all.

With that, "You're welcome, and have a great day." :)
Message: Posted by: David Fillary (Jul 27, 2015 04:50PM)
Very smooth and clean.

However, I'm with Jonothan Townsend here - how does this differ from what is in Bobo? It is described for switching in a cigarette thru quarter gimmick.

I've been using this for the last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1m_X4ijUMY&feature=youtu.be

And I'm not sure how our methods differ. Mine is basically straight from Bobo, but may have been influenced by watching Persus's video too.
Message: Posted by: Bob Magic (Jul 27, 2015 05:23PM)
It is smooth, different and fast but am wondering if it can be accomplished with bare arms?
Your hands work well compared to mine at 79.

Thank you Mark,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jul 27, 2015 05:48PM)
[quote]On Jul 27, 2015, David Fillary wrote:
Very smooth and clean.

However, I'm with Jonothan Townsend here - how does this differ from what is in Bobo? It is described for switching in a cigarette thru quarter gimmick.

I've been using this for the last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1m_X4ijUMY&feature=youtu.be

And I'm not sure how our methods differ. Mine is basically straight from Bobo, but may have been influenced by watching Persus's video too. [/quote]


Y'know, when I initially responded here, what I was saying (perhaps not so good?) wasn't that I was hoping that the move wasn't attainable, but more so that I wanted it to be something new and or unique.

If it happens to be along the lines of what you are doing David in the video, like Persus and others I've seen, or that which is described in Bobo's, well then I would be somewhat disappointed, as that is a move that I have seen and known about for decades as well. Ive even played with it myself, as have many others probably, in relative ways. Still, I will wait to read Mark's book and see what it says. :) In the meantime, perhaps Mark will comment on what you so easily did in the video here, and what dj posted as to Persus?

That Mark has been doing (perhaps "using") this move for 30 or more years as his own, is to be respected until (if at all) proven otherwise. I still "hope" that it is something unique. Again, not hoping it is something hard or difficult but to perhaps see something new unearthed or even created from something old. But if not quite unique, I will still appreciate Mark's usage and fine-tuning of it, and bringing it more thusly forward here. And Mark, I think I seem to faintly remember you here, perhaps some old videos on YT or something??? Hmmmmmm.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jul 27, 2015 05:53PM)
Especially since it's the Cleanest Coin Switch Ever
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jul 28, 2015 04:39AM)
I can appreciate that a Mentalist needs to be better at sleights than a Magician since being caught can be fatal, and they may need only one, good switch in a show,

For Magicians using several swiches in a series of effects, "being unique" or "cleanest" might not be as important as the ability to use a different method every time.

The "best method" for any effect is the one that "never happened" within the framing and flow of the effect in the mind of the observer.

I would be interested in learning this approach to add to my arsenal, but would never use it all the time even if it is "the cleanest."

With crippled fingers, misdirection is easier to manipulate than coins. Thus, "cleanest" is relative and only one factor in "unique."
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 28, 2015 06:46PM)
[quote]On Jul 26, 2015, John Long wrote:
...I at least am unsure of what Jonathan was referring to.
John [/quote]

There's a few pages of discussion about how to use [ ] right in the middle of page 111... :)
DrEMR has some of his routines a few pages later in the book.
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jul 29, 2015 09:06AM)
Thanks; that's what I eventually came to think.
I should read about EMR's routines - I'm far from having gone through Bobo