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Topic: The problem with seances and the paranormal
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 05:37PM)
Here's how I see it...

if you conduct a true/honest seance, and you get to make contact with the dead, STOP!

here's what it means...
a) that there is an afterlife
questions to consider:
if there is an afterlife, what is it like and how do you find out this information, and why is it important to know?

b) that a dead human being goes somewhere after death
questions to consider:
how did the person get there? are there rules that somehow control/enable them to get there?

c) that the dead human being can communicate with the living
questions to consider:
so imagine its YOU that has died, and are now in the afterlife, do you think you would undergo a personality change? if so, why? what information would you feel would be most important to pass onto others there?

d) the living can communicate with a dead human being
questions to consider:
what would be the most interesting questions to pose to someone in spirit? how would that impact your life and how you view the entire world?

these are just a few simple questions that I sometimes think about when I read up on seances and other similar things...

for me, the implication of a contactable dead human being is MASSIVE...and therefore requires a massive amount of thought and study too surely...because the proof of this contact has wide-spread impact on everything else in life (in my view)...

so for example, I am an atheist - I can see (at least) three distinct paths if you can indeed speak with a real dead human being...

1 - there is a god, and there is a heaven and hell, so does just one god exist or are there many? which ones?
2 - if there is such a tangible thing as a soul, is that what the person now becomes? if so, what are the rules? how does it work?
3 - something else entirely that I'm not aware of

my final thought is this...

why are ghosts from the victorian era so busy?
Message: Posted by: docdazzal (Aug 26, 2015 05:55PM)
Iain...

Thanks for you comments and for your opinion...but I'm thinking you may be confusing "real" seance...from theatrical seance. Those who do "real" seance may or may not be for "real". But, theatrical seance generally isn't "performed" to trick folks into thinking the seance is a real one. Sorta like an illusion being performed...folks know that it isn't "real" but the performance of the illusion makes it seem as real.


Continued Success,
Dr. Dan
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Aug 26, 2015 05:58PM)
I don't know if you can ever get a satisfactory answer to profound questions like this on a chat forum. That is not to dismiss the views of the members (of which I'm one), rather - the questions you pose warrant answers in a tome. Interesting thoughts nonetheless.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 06:00PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, docdazzal wrote:
Iain...

Thanks for you comments and for your opinion...but I'm thinking you may be confusing "real" seance...from theatrical seance. Those who do "real" seance may or may not be for "real". But, theatrical seance generally isn't "performed" to trick folks into thinking the seance is a real one. Sorta like an illusion being performed...folks know that it isn't "real" but the performance of the illusion makes it seem as real.


Continued Success,
Dr. Dan [/quote]

nope - I'm not confusing anything dan!
:D

if you go to a seance, driven by someone who truly believes in spirits and that they have the ability and/or the know-how to interact with spirits...these are the questions that I believe are good ones to have in your head...

same goes for a theatrical one too, because you can address them in the pre-amble (to a degree)...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 26, 2015 06:17PM)
You are also assuming that such a thing as a soul is tangible and that there are rules based upon "logic" associated with the physical world. Consciousness isn't tangible and doesn't have any rules we can grasp?

Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough.. maybe the spirit world exist within us and the dead move through us our thoughts our energy and our bodies.

Maybe we can't be separated. Maybe we are one.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 06:18PM)
MP - see point 3
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 06:22PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
You are also assuming that such a thing as a soul is tangible and that there are rules based upon "logic" associated with the physical world. Consciousness isn't tangible and doesn't have any rules we can grasp?

Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough.. maybe the spirit world exist within us and the dead move through us our thoughts our energy and our bodies.

Maybe we can't be separated. Maybe we are one. [/quote]

though, it reads like you are kinda assuming things about stuff that I am saying I don't have the answer to?!

maybe there isn't a soul at all...
read 'logic' as 'rules' - there's rules to everything, its just a question of understanding them and understanding them - this I can only assume is somewhat easy to do in this instance, if its true that we can communicate with the spirits - we can ask them...

so lets look at "Maybe moving an object n the dark is enough" - maybe it is...so for me, the immediate questions that pop up are "why is moving an object important" and "how do they move the object" and "is that easier than moving a planchette on a ouija board (as an example)...the thing is, WE can't give the answers, we find the answers by communicating with these dead human beings...
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 26, 2015 06:26PM)
Yes Ive just made you aware of it...... Maybe if you just stop and listen in the stillness of the darkness you will get your answer...

Actually I did a few home parties years ago. At one of them the host sent someone through from the group that had lost her husband. Ever since she had gone from psychic to psychic to a number of seances. And was constantly grieving the host asked me to help her.

I told her husband was part of her inside her and moved through every cell in her body every minute of the day. Because when you become close to someone they become part of you they are you and you carry them about with you all the time. You can never lose them. And that she didn't need to go see a psychic or go to a seance just create stillness and ask her lost husband what she should do and if she listens she will get an answer a feeling. And she will know its time to move on..

This turned into a hypnosis session to try and help her. She seemed to take comfort from it but I never kept in touch to find out.

But it was the last psychic party I ever did. It was enough for me didn't want to do another.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 26, 2015 06:29PM)
Iain maybe an object moving in the dark is enough or a strange noise because to ask these questions is futile. Over analysis usually is futile in most things...important is relative and even subjective. What is important to one person is irrelevant to another.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 06:41PM)
Just thought it might make a change from the bickering :bawl:
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 06:43PM)
I do think though, that its far better to question these things, rather than just gobble up the status quo (not the band, though I'm sure they've done their fair share)...

when people make these claims, I don't think they always think through what the claim may mean...the implication of believing in something is very eye opening in my opinion...

i realise that's all it is... :ridinghorse:
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 26, 2015 07:05PM)
Mentalism grew mostly out of spiritualism tech and its reflected even in the 13 steps. Also, for those who do living and dead tests - what do you think it implies... and performers who do that as much as any performance that uses belief systems needs to look carefully at what they are doing and with who.

Also, just because some people think they might know the difference between a "real" seance, theatrical seance, spook-show, mental magic, mediumistic stunts, mentalism etc.... doesn't really mean others within the field or the public get the distinction.

Anyway, I always thought the troubles and fights around here are really based on if mentalism includes mediumistic effects etc. it becomes a dangerous zone. There is a reason I noticed many mentalists pros do not really do these types of effects for commercial shows etc. once you cross over to summer land - maybe you are not really a mentalist but a medium getting your powers/effects from the spirit world.

I guess my question is if someone plans to run a seancelike act or presentation and does not think about the impact and meaning before performing on their subjects / audience - that person may cause damage in many ways - including the perception of the entertainers who try to use these things.

Because this area is so powerful - does one question why one might use EVP (AR's) device - yes its cool etc. but what is the why to the performer, the effects meaning, what you want the participants to walk away with - and do you get into a dilemma of claiming what you are doing is "real" or not.... there are those who think its cool or gives them power to frighten or terrify their spectators - vs. getting them to think and reflect on things.... nothing wrong with scaring someone IF THEY CAME FOR THAT i.e, the frame is a SPOOK SHOW and we all know what the parameters are.... its where someone breaks the unspoken boundaries that things go wrong.

Anyway, we in the spooky land deal with this all the time and its through theatrical framing, staging and being clear about who the performer is, who the audience is, what the material is to play with etc.

IMHO

BOO
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 26, 2015 07:11PM)
I know seances are pretty much always billed as "for entertainment purposes only"...that's the get out clause...

i posted it here cos..well...there IS a section in 13 steps about mediumistic stunts...so why not? :)

i had all these questions in my head waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before I even owned a magic or mentalism book...i'm sure I'm not the only one...

and I agree with Dr. S...

IMHOTEP
^in my honest opinion that's extra precious

:bg:

even if it IS for entertainment, and you want it to be seen or rather considered to be possibly 'real' - for some people, certainly not everyone - there are a dozen darting questions that appear as soon as that consideration happens...

and its not to be a git over it either...its more like excitement and curiosity...

"ah right, so this guy can do XYZ...so how does that work? does that mean they can ABC too? what if they did *that* - how does it work?"

there are questions and implications because of what they are experiencing...
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Aug 26, 2015 07:31PM)
I think you should ask Monica The Medium.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 26, 2015 07:33PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:

IMHOTEP

. [/quote]

[img]http://derekwinnert.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/The-Mummy-1932-Boris-Karloff.jpg[/img]

heheheheh - wait until you see the 5000 year old prediction chest I'm working on :)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 27, 2015 01:55AM)
Some interesting questions, Iain; and I certainly agree that if one could communicate with someone who has ascended,
would you waste time on trivial matters of earthy concerns like, "Where's the key to that safe deposit box?"

If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal and has now "left this mortal coil" behind, why would this spirit have the slightest interest in why we earth worms want?
If "being in the presence of the divine" is have as incredible as touted by organized religions, then not a single spirit would wish to spend time with you and me.

If, alternately, we premise that the "soul" has some residual effluvia left over from the life experience, why would the spiritual essence wish to be drug back though the mire?

If the "ascended" self is still largely "you," with memories, fears, doubts, etc intact, then why would this be considered any "heaven?" -- sound miserable and boring to me.

Me? I hope my eternal spirit is given a new assignment as far from humanity as possible, but if I am punished to return for another try, I be blessed with forgetfulness over how much I screwed up the first time.

But, in possible answer to some of your questions, why would you assume that any answer given by a spirit would be the truth? If they did "know," why should they "reveal?"
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 04:13AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, funsway wrote:
If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal [/quote]

well, automatically you are asking me/others to accept a premise without questioning it...

how does spirit work? why is it eternal? is it linked to something else?

again, these are not awkward questions, just naturally occurring ones that just help explain everything you want me to accept off the bat...

if I were to accept the premise that the spirit is eternal, then that means anyone who has ever lived is a spirit, that is billions of people...waiting to get through maybe? all different languages and beliefs...asking different spirits would maybe get me different answers cos their beliefs differ...i dunno...
Message: Posted by: Nestor D (Aug 27, 2015 04:25AM)
The implications of a seance are indeed massive.
It seems that those questions were raised more often when séances were just apearing ("if ghost wear clothes then, do we wear clothes in heaven ?" cf confessions of a medium) maybe we just get accustomed to the existence of seances and stoped asking questions ?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 05:01AM)
Yeah maybe...seems a bit wrong to let things go unquestioned for 200 years or so...

why so many victorian looking ghosts I wonder?
why not georgian?
i would put forward the idea that the victorian era is more identifiable within out psyche (in the west at least), and I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't know the difference between edwardian and victorian as an example...

why so many women in white or black?

no bronze age ghosts? why not? that kind of thing...
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 27, 2015 06:31AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, IAIN wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, funsway wrote:
If we accept the premise that the spirit is eternal [/quote]
well, automatically you are asking me/others to accept a premise without questioning it...
[/quote]

Nope -- said offered "what if" as a foundation to a question -- a hypothetical.

but, your "auto" assumption does provide some further depth to you last question.

What assumptions do people going to seance make about the spirit they intend/hope to "draw forth?"

Why does this spirit come from a certain period? What will it speak a language understandable to the audience or medium? Why will it understand your questions?

It seems the skill/power/ability of the medium is in calling up the RIGHT spirit and just not ANY spirit.

If, on the other expectation, that only certain spirits are eternal or "available," why should they have any answer of value, or wish to share it or tell the truth?

I might even support the notion that there is some spirit amongst the billions who have "passed on" who would be willing to return for a moment to dabble in human silliness,
but surely not "on demand" or the specific one desired. Would they be available out of mirth. a desire to meddle or some "gotcha game?"

If, instead, there are ghosts in the popular pretense that they are "caught between," then they would not have the answers to the deeper questions you have asked.

Just wait until spirits discover FaceBook and start posting as a friend under some strange avatar. If they can shake bells they can push a computer key.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 07:14AM)
Mr. Deutsch (Roland Culver): My people tell me you're one of the best five in the field. You're fee will be 100,000 pounds. Your assignment; to establish the facts.
Dr. Barrett (Clive Revill): Regarding what?
Mr. Deutsch: Survival after death.
Dr. Barrett: You want me...?
Mr. Deutsch: To let me know if it's factual.
Dr. Barrett: How could I convince you either way?
Mr. Deutsch: Give me the facts.
Dr. Barrett: And where can I find these facts? I'm a physicist. For twenty years I've studied parapsychology I've yet to...
Mr. Deutsch: If they exist you'll find them in the only place I know on Earth where survival has yet to be refuted. The Belasco House.
Dr. Barrett: Hell House?
Mr. Deutsch: (Smiles) Hell House.

----

Florence Tanner (Pamela Franklin): It's hideous.
Dr. Barrett: We're not even inside yet, Miss Tanner.

----

Gramophone recording of Emeric Belasco (voiced by Michael Gough): Welcome to my house. I'm delighted you could come. I'm certain you will find your stay here most illuminating. Think of me as your unseen host and believe that during your stay here I shall be with you in spirit. May you find the answer that you seek. It is here, I promise you. And now, auf wiedersehen.

----

Ann Barrett: (Looking through microscope.) What is it?
Dr. Barrett: A specimen of that teleplasm prepared in water. What the spiritualists refer to as ectoplasm is derived almost entirely from the medium's body. The remainder being an admixture from the air, the medium's costume, fibrous remains, food and dust particles, etcetera, etcetera. But the bulk of it is organic living matter, an organic externalization of thought – Mind reduced to matter.

----

Ann Barrett: What's it going to do, Lionel?
Dr. Barrett: You've heard me talk about a power in this house. It's a real power, Ann. A field of measurable energy. Energy that can be reversed and that's exactly what I'm going to do. By this time tomorrow, Hell House will be drained, de-energized. You'll see.
Benjamin Fischer: (Clapping.) That pile of junk you have there Barrett isn't going to do a thing.



Love that film! That and others that explore phenomena from multiple POV are always wonderful - like the Innocents and Quatermass and the Pit and so on.... great premises for acts and presentations.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 07:15AM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:
I do think though, that its far better to question these things, rather than just gobble up the status quo (not the band, though I'm sure they've done their fair share)...

when people make these claims, I don't think they always think through what the claim may mean...the implication of believing in something is very eye opening in my opinion...

i realise that's all it is... :ridinghorse: [/quote]

You could also keep away from the status quo by remaining detached and not getting too involved and just see things as is...including the magic community's status quo to bash. If it could be proved it would've been by now. When your eye opens what does it see? What implications? how do you know these implications are real and not just part of your psychological make up? Why should I believe your claim that there would be a huge implication?

The same process can be turned on anything but the result is the same its futile..
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 07:28AM)
Of course both points of view are valid but what is the best? As Harry would say FIGHT! Now that's good things are back to normal....
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 07:32AM)
Are you ok, mindpunisher?
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 08:23AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
including the magic community's status quo to bash
[/quote]

I thought that was more the mentalist community :) - this forum is the Mt Everest of Bashing phenomena

IMHOtep (I like it Iain, so I will continue that new sign-off - thanks!)
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 09:28AM)
Im fine Iain are you ok? My last post is about as serious as this thread should be. Dr Spektor its a magic tradition to bash psychics and continuously "question". It just goes around in circles this IS the status quo magicians including the subset known as mentalists - only mentalists believe they aren't magicians. But shhht we know they really are right? A rock star and an opera star are still singers. The only difference is one eats more and plays to posher people.

Iain what implications are you going on about? And what would ever satisfy you that there was life after death? Why does it even need to be important?

The premise is daft one from the start as for those that believe its already real for them...why n ot ask them what the implications are? Its all subjective anyway.
Message: Posted by: E.E. (Aug 27, 2015 09:33AM)
I have a routine in which you start low and end calling out the spirit of a loved one... I performed it last night-
Let me tell you, Dunford, that those questions you don't have to answer... people pretty much have it's own belief system and that is not going to change. You don't need to explain How his loved one passed over to the other side or If there's really a god.. I believe they have their own explanations for what's happening, and nothing that you say is going to change that.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 09:41AM)
That's not my point...

They are a set of questions that I consider worthy of consideration, why? Because by questioning these things, you get to see a much, much bigger picture...we get to see what is indirectly implied by what someone claims...
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 10:01AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, E.E. wrote:
I have a routine in which you start low and end calling out the spirit of a loved one... I performed it last night-
Let me tell you, Dunford, that those questions you don't have to answer... people pretty much have it's own belief system and that is not going to change. You don't need to explain How his loved one passed over to the other side or If there's really a god.. I believe they have their own explanations for what's happening, and nothing that you say is going to change that. [/quote]

Until they break down crying, say you are playing with forces you shouldn't and all that jazz - do it enough you'll encounter the gamut of reactions - just be prepared.... when you say "I'm just an entertainer!" that will not be enough - and do this in the wrong part of the world, you can be arrested and beheaded....

Really!

IMHOtep MAYBE - add in 1000 more disclaimers here

achoo
Message: Posted by: jstreiff (Aug 27, 2015 10:10AM)
If you actually study the better cases, both historical and present day, there is a strong indication that survival is quite possible. Stephen Braude does an excellent survey in his book 'Immortal Remains'.

As one who has personally had the experience of ostensibly communicating with apparently deceased persons, I can tell you the experience is quite real. I can completely understand why practitioners passionately believe it is real. And I would argue that critics are in no position to really understand those feelings. While I am not a sure of the real mechanism - no one is - I suspect it is a combination of psi among the living and survival psi of some form.

Since anything is possible, it would seem a wise approach to potential survival encounter would be an open, objective inquiry with no pre-established ideas. I was personally confronted with precisely this scenario in the 1970's during a sitting with a Spiritualist medium who purportedly brought through Jesus. While I suspected this might not be the case, I must confess that one's certainty of belief can be challenged in this scenario. And, as is always the case, the prudent course is simply to accept the event as real in the moment and think about it critically after it has all played out. It seems pointless to deny the experience at the time.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 10:12AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
It just goes around in circles this IS the status quo magicians including the subset known as mentalists - only mentalists believe they aren't magicians. But shhht we know they really are right?
[/quote]

Hehehahaaaaa! Now I see you escaped from the anti-matter dimension!

[youtube]J8IOgU5spjE[/youtube]

Notice that he misses a lot - to demonstrate this is mentalism and not magic! :) He thinks wizard=mentalist maybe

Hee hee
Message: Posted by: E.E. (Aug 27, 2015 10:28AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, Dr Spektor wrote:

Until they break down crying, say you are playing with forces you shouldn't and all that jazz - do it enough you'll encounter the gamut of reactions - just be prepared.... when you say "I'm just an entertainer!" that will not be enough - and do this in the wrong part of the world, you can be arrested and beheaded....

Really!

IMHOtep MAYBE - add in 1000 more disclaimers here

achoo [/quote]

Something to consider right there, Specktor.
I've always feel that I'm doing something that is, to a certain extent, good for them. The question I always made them ask is "Are you in peace with yourself" and of course, the answer is always Yes.

I think, that gives peace to the participant as well.

Since I always use a lighter or a candle "Because from there they take the energy they need" in the end I say something like "your loved one now has a strong connection with this lighter/candle... whenever you miss him, just light it for a bit, and you'll feel he's with you"

but that's just what I do..
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 10:35AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, E.E. wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, Dr Spektor wrote:

Until they break down crying, say you are playing with forces you shouldn't and all that jazz - do it enough you'll encounter the gamut of reactions - just be prepared.... when you say "I'm just an entertainer!" that will not be enough - and do this in the wrong part of the world, you can be arrested and beheaded....

Really!

IMHOtep MAYBE - add in 1000 more disclaimers here

achoo [/quote]

Something to consider right there, Specktor.
I've always feel that I'm doing something that is, to a certain extent, good for them. The question I always made them ask is "Are you in peace with yourself" and of course, the answer is always Yes.

I think, that gives peace to the participant as well.

Since I always use a lighter or a candle "Because from there they take the energy they need" in the end I say something like "your loved one now has a strong connection with this lighter/candle... whenever you miss him, just light it for a bit, and you'll feel he's with you"

but that's just what I do.. [/quote]

Hey, do as thou wilst as they say! I'm just sharing my own experiences as well... and that its a delicate matter that has potential big pitfalls if not navigated carefully! The abyss yawns deeply.... and if that I think I'll take a nap.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 27, 2015 11:24AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:

...only mentalists believe they aren't magicians. But shhht we know they really are right? [/quote]

What do you mean "we?"

I'm really surprised that you even wrote that. If you don't understand the difference between mentalists and magicians by now, though, there's really nothing I can say that I haven't said, and written, hundreds of times before.

I do believe, though, that some of the posts made in this thread perfectly illustrate the problems with the modern notion that mentalism is supposed to be a highly emotional "life changing" experience.

It's not. If you want to work on peoples' psyches get a degree and a license to practice.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 01:13PM)
Mentalism is entertainment its not therapy. Unfortunately many who attend psychic parties are trying to solve a problem. Especially around readings. I don't believe mentalism should make profound changes in anyone that's why I don't do psychic parties. Which I have a real ethical problem with. Mentalists are not psychic and shouldn't be doing psychic parties in my opinion. But that's just me I am not going to bang on about it.Everybody to their own thing. And while the presentation nuances are distinct between mainstream magicians and pretend mind readers they are still both magicians just presenting a different illusion. While I highly respect your writings Bob and your knowledge on how to deliver these nuances in order to create the illusion of mind reading it still doesn't change the fact we are all magician's. Expose a mentalist in front of an audience show them the techniques and they will go away thinking they saw a magician. Which in reality is what they would have witnessed. A percentage of an audience will go away thinking they saw a magician any way. Another will think its real no matter the disclaimer and the rest don't care.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 27, 2015 01:21PM)
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Mentalism and magic are two very distinct art forms. If you think that exposing mentalists before a lay audience would prove to them that we're magicians, you'd be wrong for many would refuse to believe the exposures.

The fact that so many of todays "mentalists" don't understand the difference is the reason why the art has become so trivialized lately. The problem is that too many magicians simply think that calling something mentalism doesn't make it so.

But you can't cut it both ways. If audiences believe magic and mentalism to be the same thing, the points being raised in this thread would be meaningless, because any apparently "mediumistic" phenomena presented by mentalists would then be perceived as magic tricks and the issue of it being too powerful, unethical,or even fraudulent, would be moot.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 27, 2015 02:22PM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Here's how I see it...

if you conduct a true/honest seance, and you get to make contact with the dead, STOP!

here's what it means...
a) that there is an afterlife
questions to consider:
if there is an afterlife, what is it like and how do you find out this information, and why is it important to know?

b) that a dead human being goes somewhere after death
questions to consider:
how did the person get there? are there rules that somehow control/enable them to get there?

c) that the dead human being can communicate with the living
questions to consider:
so imagine its YOU that has died, and are now in the afterlife, do you think you would undergo a personality change? if so, why? what information would you feel would be most important to pass onto others there?

d) the living can communicate with a dead human being
questions to consider:
what would be the most interesting questions to pose to someone in spirit? how would that impact your life and how you view the entire world?

these are just a few simple questions that I sometimes think about when I read up on seances and other similar things...

for me, the implication of a contactable dead human being is MASSIVE...and therefore requires a massive amount of thought and study too surely...because the proof of this contact has wide-spread impact on everything else in life (in my view)...

so for example, I am an atheist - I can see (at least) three distinct paths if you can indeed speak with a real dead human being...

1 - there is a god, and there is a heaven and hell, so does just one god exist or are there many? which ones?
2 - if there is such a tangible thing as a soul, is that what the person now becomes? if so, what are the rules? how does it work?
3 - something else entirely that I'm not aware of

my final thought is this...

why are ghosts from the victorian era so busy? [/quote]
You honestly need to read a couple of books by or about Arthur Ford. He asked similar questions.
He debunked (or refused to support) hundreds of fake mediums himself.
He held "Real" seances in the daylight hours. No 'In the Dark" trickery was ever used.
He was a "Medium" who used a Spirit Guide. Although hundreds tried, he was never debunked or caught out in any way aside from the discovery of a published Obituary from the 60's found in his library after his death in the 70's.... Which only proved he was sent or kept an obituary of someone published in a newspaper for everyone to read.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 02:51PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. [/quote]

[youtube]BOTwJWHV9uc[/youtube]

Note: I think the main character there is also wrong - the people he is speaking to are likely alive - unless they are ghosts. But I think he plans to kill them to make them ghosts. He maybe therefore is a mentalist who sees they will be dead soon.... or is he a magician then who can withstand energy attacks?

Man, I must have eaten something odd today.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 27, 2015 03:29PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, Slim King wrote:


...he was never debunked or caught out in any way aside from the discovery of a published Obituary from the 60's found in his library after his death in the 70's.... Which only proved he was sent or kept an obituary of someone published in a newspaper for everyone to read. [/quote]

Leave it to you to omit mentioning the MANY other "background sheets" on his former clients found in his library. It was a lot more than an obituary.

You seem to forget that I know William Rauscher, whose integrity is unimpeachable and who examined the documents himself.

Ford was a blatant opportunist and fraud.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 03:37PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Mentalism and magic are two very distinct art forms. If you think that exposing mentalists before a lay audience would prove to them that we're magicians, you'd be wrong for many would refuse to believe the exposures.

The fact that so many of todays "mentalists" don't understand the difference is the reason why the art has become so trivialized lately. The problem is that too many magicians simply think that calling something mentalism doesn't make it so.

But you can't cut it both ways. If audiences believe magic and mentalism to be the same thing, the points being raised in this thread would be meaningless, because any apparently "mediumistic" phenomena presented by mentalists would then be perceived as magic tricks and the issue of it being too powerful, unethical,or even fraudulent, would be moot. [/quote]

yes but you don't have control over an audience you only have control over your presentation. In a room with 100 people you will have 100 different reputations no matter what you do. Some will like you, some won't care and some will dislike you. You will find similar variations of belief in what you do is real verses the opposite beliefs. That will always be the case.

Uri Geller may still have some who believe him to be real after those exposures but at least here in the UK the vast vast majority think of him as a bad magician. In fact he was the brunt of many jokes in his last media appearances I saw. Something quite different to when he was in his heyday long before the exposures. I don't know anyone who now thinks he is real. I still respect him and what he did but that's long gone. Even Derren Brown is more widely thought of as a magician these days after "exposing" he was fake through disclaimers. Sure some will still think he is real but the wider view of him in the media and the public at large has changed. I remember when people were lining up to debunk him in the press years ago he started coming out with the disclaimers. I think he knew how to play the long game at his level.

Opera and Rock Music are two distinctly different art forms but both are still music art forms. Saying a mentalist isn't a magician doesn't make it so either. A mentalist is a type of magician that creates a specific type of illusion.


It doesn't add or take anything away from mentalism or magic. The only ones I see who seem to be concerned about being a type of magician are mentalists. So I guess in their minds they are entitled to believe what they want.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 27, 2015 03:42PM)
No- a real mentalist (and there are very few remaining today) is NOT a magician. And your saying the contrary doesn't make it so either.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 03:57PM)
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 27, 2015 04:00PM)
I remember Uri on tv shows in the company of magicians protesting that he was NOT a magician. Where in reality he was a magician living a lie.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Aug 27, 2015 04:25PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days. [/quote]

You clearly are NOT following his career to date. The man is never 'off'.

I'm intrigued what you know to the contrary. Can you elaborate?
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 27, 2015 04:29PM)
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't bolster the argument. It just shows that you don't understand that there is a completely different, and very well documented, point of view that mentalism and magic are not the same. They don't even share common historical roots.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 27, 2015 04:51PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't bolster the argument. It just shows that you don't understand that there is a completely different, and very well documented, point of view that mentalism and magic are not the same. They don't even share common historical roots. [/quote]

Hey Bob ... How about Houdini's buddy placing a retractable ruler in the Margery Box. He admitted it right?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 04:53PM)
Not on my thread please gents...

...and Slim. 😈😉

Back to ny original post please...
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 06:28PM)
Nah - if Houdini can handle the Cthulhu Mythos, a measly ghost shouldn't have been so troublesome

[img]http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/weird-tales/5-1.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 27, 2015 06:34PM)
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0-Us_jumQ
Message: Posted by: Steve_Mollett (Aug 27, 2015 07:08PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
No- a real mentalist (and there are very few remaining today) is NOT a magician. And your saying the contrary doesn't make it so either. [/quote]

I understand what you're saying--and agree that it's a different mindset, though beyond a point the argument comes dangerously close to "no true Scotsman."
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 07:10PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0-Us_jumQ [/quote]

we can all tap our feet to that
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 27, 2015 07:14PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, Steve_Mollett wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
No- a real mentalist (and there are very few remaining today) is NOT a magician. And your saying the contrary doesn't make it so either. [/quote]

I understand what you're saying--and agree that it's a different mindset, though beyond a point the argument comes dangerously close to "no true Scotsman." [/quote]


[youtube]9uWF210Vdx0[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 28, 2015 09:19AM)
...why do you think there's more alleged sightings of victorian looking ghosts than any other time period?

what took place in the victorian era that allowed people to transfer into ghosts so much more easily than any other time period before or since?

anything to do with stories, films and plays set in that time period?
the victorian era is the most easily identifiable historically?
a huge amount of famous horror writers are from that time period?
something else?

we certainly viewed and treated death a little differently in the victorian era...but how does that affect ghosts?

does all of the above somehow influence? why and why not?

i bet you could psych&^&****lly f&*ce a ghost if you worked out some decent framing and questions...that could be fun during a seance...
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Aug 28, 2015 09:28AM)
Does anybody ever see neanderthal ghosts?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 28, 2015 09:30AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Does anybody ever see neanderthal ghosts? [/quote]

i think some of them post here...
Message: Posted by: E.E. (Aug 28, 2015 09:47AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Does anybody ever see neanderthal ghosts? [/quote]

i think some of them post here... [/quote]

Ba dum tss!
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 28, 2015 10:14AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, Randwill wrote:
Does anybody ever see neanderthal ghosts? [/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stone_Tape

Great little haunted / science vs spirit POV Xmas ghost tale by Kneale.... and there are layers into the "tape" that go ways back - starts with a Victorian Ghost but it gets more wild when the more primitive forces are unleashed
Message: Posted by: actorcoop (Aug 28, 2015 10:23AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, IAIN wrote:
They are a set of questions that I consider worthy of consideration, why? Because by questioning these things, you get to see a much, much bigger picture...we get to see what is indirectly implied by what someone claims... [/quote]

I think it is more important to raise these questions TO an audience than to define them ourselves and push our own beliefs upon them. Much like a good history teacher would teach a world religion class in an unbiased manner regardless of his own faith. I ultimately think that people will believe whatever that want to. I think it is important to at least let them knows that there ARE different angles and its up to THEM to decide. Whether séances are presented as 'real' or not doesn't take away from the fact that it is very unique theatre and should be treated as such and not a debate.

That being said, I also agree with MANY points you brought up IAIN. The thing that puzzles myself as well is the fact that there seemss to be a lack of diversity in the afterlife. If our souls really did cross over and needed to communicate surely there will be more ancestors trying to come through speaking Russian? German? Chinese?

As far as the Victorian aspect of it all, I find that fascinating. Death was so 'en vogue' during that era and I think that there is a dark romanticism attached to it that makes it a perfect anchor for certain seance work. Also, the spiritualism movement was picking up a lot of speed during this time so the attachment to each other is probably rooted from that. It is so interesting to me because it is a religious ritual that actually requires an audience. Perhaps it's ritualistic integrity has been maintained this long for sake of keeping a tradition alive.

Of course, my perspective and stance of Seance is coming from a more theatrical slant. I think as long as it is established that what you are doing is performing or presenting something, whatever you justify (or don't) is part of the act.
Message: Posted by: Al Desmond (Aug 28, 2015 10:36AM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, jstreiff wrote:
If you actually study the better cases, both historical and present day, there is a strong indication that survival is quite possible. Stephen Braude does an excellent survey in his book 'Immortal Remains'.

As one who has personally had the experience of ostensibly communicating with apparently deceased persons, I can tell you the experience is quite real. I can completely understand why practitioners passionately believe it is real. And I would argue that critics are in no position to really understand those feelings. While I am not a sure of the real mechanism - no one is - I suspect it is a combination of psi among the living and survival psi of some form.

Since anything is possible, it would seem a wise approach to potential survival encounter would be an open, objective inquiry with no pre-established ideas. I was personally confronted with precisely this scenario in the 1970's during a sitting with a Spiritualist medium who purportedly brought through Jesus. While I suspected this might not be the case, I must confess that one's certainty of belief can be challenged in this scenario. And, as is always the case, the prudent course is simply to accept the event as real in the moment and think about it critically after it has all played out. It seems pointless to deny the experience at the time. [/quote]

Your assumption "since anything is possible," is simply that. An assumption.

You cannot use that as proof of the rest of your argument.

A wise approach would be to question your assumption that anything is possible.

That's false on it's face.

But then again, if no one thought like you, I guess no one would be impressed or entertained by what I do.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 28, 2015 10:45AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
...why do you think there's more alleged sightings of victorian looking ghosts than any other time period?

what took place in the victorian era that allowed people to transfer into ghosts so much more easily than any other time period before or since?

anything to do with stories, films and plays set in that time period?
the victorian era is the most easily identifiable historically?
a huge amount of famous horror writers are from that time period?
something else?

we certainly viewed and treated death a little differently in the victorian era...but how does that affect ghosts?

does all of the above somehow influence? why and why not?

i bet you could psych&^&****lly f&*ce a ghost if you worked out some decent framing and questions...that could be fun during a seance... [/quote]
You have a slight logic problem. Native Americans DID NOT see Victorian Ghosts ... They saw Native American Spirits and still do.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 28, 2015 10:52AM)
Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

:dancing: :cuteangel:
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 28, 2015 11:24AM)
Http://www.livescience.com/5046-monsters-ghosts-gods.html
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 28, 2015 02:38PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

:dancing: :cuteangel: [/quote]
Again, proving once and for all that we do not all see victorian ghosts...... KISS... Ghost stick with their own kind ;) Why else come back?
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Aug 28, 2015 02:54PM)
I will be present at a live seance conducted by Kreskin in October of this year. My last similar experience at the same venue was with Sylvia Browne. You'll find my impressions elsewhere on this forum, and I'll offer my further observations after the coming event.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Aug 28, 2015 03:47PM)
Hi Keith! Good to "see" you!
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Aug 28, 2015 04:11PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, Steve_Mollett wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
No- a real mentalist (and there are very few remaining today) is NOT a magician. And your saying the contrary doesn't make it so either. [/quote]

I understand what you're saying--and agree that it's a different mindset, though beyond a point the argument comes dangerously close to "no true Scotsman." [/quote]

Not really. I think you'll agree that most of those newcomers claiming to be "mentalists" nowadays simply aren't. And that's because they use the word without understanding what mentalism is.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 28, 2015 04:46PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Nope. You've just reinforced one of my points.

Its about the individual's cultural references.

Native Americans don't see white Victorian era people because their belief structure works differently.

Slim has just proven ghosts are figments of the imagination, thanks Slim.

:dancing: :cuteangel: [/quote]
Again, proving once and for all that we do not all see victorian ghosts...... KISS... Ghost stick with their own kind ;) Why else come back? [/quote]

ROTFLMAO


:dancing: :dancing:

thanks for proving my point AGAIN, slim king...

people only conjour up ghosts and describe them based on their own cultural history, or what they get told what a ghost looks like...it was like le mezmer trying to mezmerize the little indian boy...

the lady in black/white
the mad monk
the king/queen/lord/lady
the cheeky children
the grim reaper
the hooded bad guy

culutural architypes...native americans imagine theirs too...

:angel: :dancing: :bat:

thanks AGAIN, slim...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 28, 2015 04:59PM)
So lets move on now...

let's say that ghosts appear in a spot that has meaning to them when they were alive...

how about these guys and their haunted toilets?
http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2015/05/the-mysterious-haunted-toilets-of-bangladesh/

if you get so scared you s**t yourself, good job you're on the potty, that's what I say...

why were so many ghosts attracted to those toilets? and how could you flush them out?

___________________________________________________________________________

i agree that everyone will form their own individual understanding of a spirit experience...for me, that just opens up more doors and more questions...

why can't it be agreed on?

we all agree on how elephants live, we all agree on how whales live, there are rudimentary, baseline behaviours we can expect...you don't see a herd of budgies go swimming do you...

so with spirit - these dead human beings:
we should be able to immediately identify them by how they express themselves shouldn't we?
if a psychic medium is interacting with them, clairaudient at least - then they would feedback exactly what they just heard, yes?

so if its a yes, then you would be able to recognise the ex alive human being's word usage too wouldn't you? I bet you can list three close friends or family members AND be able to say what words they use most, whether they say "ace" a lot, or use certain terminology cos of their job or way of life.

if NOT - that's an even better response, if NOT - then why? what changes? is it being said that when you become dead you can't speak in the same way as you did when alive? that's fascinating to me...why not...ask the spirit why that's changed? maybe there's a rule that means they're not allowed to...if so, who has made that rule and why?

why not ask which god is around, what its like, if they interact with it and in what way? describe summerland...maybe the same psychic medium could travel the world and ask in different countries, will they get different answers? why isn't it consistent?

if its different, are we saying "everyone experiences death differently" - that's fine too, that's just another rule to understand isn't it..

"ah" I hear you ask "ah, but iain...what if there are no rules?"

that's great too I'd say, that's great - then that means all the holy books are wrong. That's a really massive claim for YOU to have thought...so if you're saying all holy books are wrong, what happens?

etc

:welcome:
Message: Posted by: Doc_Z (Aug 28, 2015 05:43PM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2015, Slim King wrote:
Ghost stick with their own kind ;) Why else come back? [/quote]

Yeah, ghosts are such racists.
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Aug 29, 2015 10:22AM)
Magicians have used ghosts or spirits as a theme, for example, David Copperfield's Barkley House illusion. This approach seems on the level of Disney World or the Halloween haunted house--giving thrills without a any claim to reality.

Although I am not an authority on bizarre magic, it seems many of the effects focus on strange objects or phenomenon without the traditional spirit medium's communication with the dead. I am happy to be educated in this regard. I am thinking of Eugene Burger's presentation for Glorpy and his Ashes to Palm effect.

Mentalists who produce a real experience or phenomenon may face different ethical issues when bringing in the ghost theme.

I appreciate IAIN's thought-provoking thread!
I am very thankful to see the many POVs expressed here on this issue. Very illuminating!

For what it's worth, I think magical thinking (superstition), religion, and science co-exist and grow alongside each other with some interaction and interrelationship. For example, a Chinese scientist may also burn incense for the ancestors. This conception departs from Frazer in [I]The Golden Bough[/I], who argues magic evolved into religion which in turn gave way to science.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 29, 2015 01:08PM)
Iain its easy to identify the word usage of a spirit.... they like to play spelling and number games with mediums who are forced to ask.... " who in the audience is connected to the letter P or number 14"... I think the spirits must be bored stiff that they play these games at every chance.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 29, 2015 01:15PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, innercirclewannabe wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days. [/quote]

You clearly are NOT following his career to date. The man is never 'off'.

I'm intrigued what you know to the contrary. Can you elaborate? [/quote]

Uri has in the past in the UK more or less hinted that his "powers" aren't real. He is no longer taken seriously over here with the media and most of the public. And even if he is "never off" it doesn't mean the public or media are on. They aren't - no one takes him seriously anymore. Times have changed. No one in the media and no one I know personally.
Message: Posted by: mindpunisher (Aug 29, 2015 01:25PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Mentalism and magic are two very distinct art forms. If you think that exposing mentalists before a lay audience would prove to them that we're magicians, you'd be wrong for many would refuse to believe the exposures.

The fact that so many of todays "mentalists" don't understand the difference is the reason why the art has become so trivialized lately. The problem is that too many magicians simply think that calling something mentalism doesn't make it so.

But you can't cut it both ways. If audiences believe magic and mentalism to be the same thing, the points being raised in this thread would be meaningless, because any apparently "mediumistic" phenomena presented by mentalists would then be perceived as magic tricks and the issue of it being too powerful, unethical,or even fraudulent, would be moot. [/quote]

Ar rock singer calling himself an opera singer doesn't make him an opera singer but it still doesn't change that they are both different types of singers. Quite often TV mediums are believed to be using magician's methods. Of course that is to a large extent attributed to the magician's and mentalists who make programmes trying to expose them. Why would a mentalist or a magician be qualified to debunk mediums and psychics I wonder? Because to a certain degree they use the same "tricks" or "methods" "magicians tricks or methods.

Ans as you said in another post there is documented point of view that a mentalist is different to a magician - that's just one point of view. It may not be the most widely used one. You are most likely correct that most people who use the word mentalist aren't really mentalists and the art has been trivialized. that's progress unfortunately.
Message: Posted by: innercirclewannabe (Aug 29, 2015 01:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 29, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, innercirclewannabe wrote:
[quote]On Aug 27, 2015, mindpunisher wrote:
Uri used to be a real mentalist who is now mostly thought of as a magician who told lies. Who is right the media and public of today or the media and public of the past? - even Uri seems to have given up trying to be a real mentalist these days. [/quote]

You clearly are NOT following his career to date. The man is never 'off'.

I'm intrigued what you know to the contrary. Can you elaborate? [/quote]

Uri has in the past in the UK more or less hinted that his "powers" aren't real. He is no longer taken seriously over here with the media and most of the public. And even if he is "never off" it doesn't mean the public or media are on. They aren't - no one takes him seriously anymore. Times have changed. No one in the media and no one I know personally. [/quote]


Noting like a sweeping generalisation to try and make a point. He still attracts interest and intrigue. Only in the last couple of years the BBC made an hour long documentary about his life and times.I didn't see anyone laughing in the documentary, and more importantly, I don't think the BBC would waste public money on a documentary about a man who "no-one take seriously anymore", do you?
Message: Posted by: MM2714330 (Jan 11, 2016 02:12AM)
I believe I spoke with a known dead relative through my 2 year old son. I didn't perform a seance it just happened. You're right it's MASSIVE. Me nor my wife who was there could sleep. Too many questions and possibilities. And one being that just because there is life after death doesn't necessarily mean there is a god. Thoughts about is luck really random or are some helped by the other side? If my wife's dead grandfather can linger around 4 weeks after his passing is there a time limit? If not then you better be a good boy when you think you're alone because your family on the other side can see what you're up to! Being that there appears to be life after death makes dying not so perminate thus aliviating fear of dying. Meaning you will see your children live their lives and possibly help them. It also means maybe you can ask for help? Anyway, my story is a long one but basically my two year old son who didn't know his great grandfather at all was able to answer detailed questions about him that he could not have known. And persisted to stare at a spot on the ceiling with great curiousity. Even later after initial contact stopped breast feeding and said "Goodnight Jack" to that same spot in the ceiling. Something extremely out of the ordinary for my son, something he could not have even been trained to do if I wanted to.

And about me, I'm not religious, I leave the door open for a higher power but acknowledge that may be to comforting myself but I'm ok with that.


[quote]On Aug 26, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Here's how I see it...

if you conduct a true/honest seance, and you get to make contact with the dead, STOP!

here's what it means...
a) that there is an afterlife
questions to consider:
if there is an afterlife, what is it like and how do you find out this information, and why is it important to know?

b) that a dead human being goes somewhere after death
questions to consider:
how did the person get there? are there rules that somehow control/enable them to get there?

c) that the dead human being can communicate with the living
questions to consider:
so imagine its YOU that has died, and are now in the afterlife, do you think you would undergo a personality change? if so, why? what information would you feel would be most important to pass onto others there?

d) the living can communicate with a dead human being
questions to consider:
what would be the most interesting questions to pose to someone in spirit? how would that impact your life and how you view the entire world?

these are just a few simple questions that I sometimes think about when I read up on seances and other similar things...

for me, the implication of a contactable dead human being is MASSIVE...and therefore requires a massive amount of thought and study too surely...because the proof of this contact has wide-spread impact on everything else in life (in my view)...

so for example, I am an atheist - I can see (at least) three distinct paths if you can indeed speak with a real dead human being...

1 - there is a god, and there is a heaven and hell, so does just one god exist or are there many? which ones?
2 - if there is such a tangible thing as a soul, is that what the person now becomes? if so, what are the rules? how does it work?
3 - something else entirely that I'm not aware of

my final thought is this...

why are ghosts from the victorian era so busy? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 11, 2016 02:28AM)
Such a great story!!!!! These are the kinds of things that are irrefutable. Real life situations!!!!
Message: Posted by: MM2714330 (Jan 11, 2016 02:36AM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Such a great story!!!!! These are the kinds of things that are irrefutable. Real life situations!!!! [/quote]

It gives me a solid authentic foundation to be presenting something of interest. That makes the effects feel genuine so long as they are not outside of my interest to explore what happened to me. Nothing about what I present can appear to be a gimmick. No haunted keys!
Message: Posted by: jstreiff (Jan 11, 2016 09:28AM)
Sorry for the late response to a prior posting starting that the phrase 'anything is possible' is only an assumption on my part.

The statement is based on some fairly uncontroversial facts.

1. We don't have reliable contact with objective reality. Even in scientific experiments, there are limits to our inquiries.
2. We have been around for the blink of a cosmic eye and doing science for a fraction of that time.
3. Physicists, who are paid to understand reality, cannot agree if things as simple as matter or motion are real or illusory.

Clearly, we don't know what we don't know. And therefore by logical, rational deduction Anything Is Possible. Put more bluntly, as a species, we are too ignorant to state that anything is necessarily impossible.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 10:19AM)
Well, man cant breathe underwater without help can they...

And we know a bit, certainly only just starting to understand ourselves and the known world...

I think anything is possible is an interesting concept, I'm not sure if its quite the right thing to focus on though...

Maybe water can suddenly move in the air, in a circle and change colour or grow wings...
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Jan 11, 2016 10:32AM)
Arn't clouds water that moves around in the air, they change color and shape too...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 10:39AM)
Do they look, feel and behave as water? They don't do they...they are called clouds because they behave differently to the water in your glass...

Unless you ask a chilled glass of sparkling cloud?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 10:42AM)
Http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-clouds-float-when/
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 10:45AM)
It is a good example though, tony...

I guess it could be argued that clouds are just water, but theres so much more to it...

Just like the implication of a two year old being able to speak to their dead uncle is also a huge concept to deal with...it asks more questions (for me) than anything else
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 11, 2016 12:04PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
Arn't clouds water that moves around in the air, they change color and shape too... [/quote]
100% on that one!!! Touche'
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 12:23PM)
Its like saying a pitchfork should be placed at the dinner table...
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Jan 11, 2016 12:44PM)
I cannot argue for or against speaking with the dead.

Yes, I talk to them, but am not sure that they answer back.

I do get answers in dreams and in thoughts.
These could be from the beyond, influenced from the beyond, or created entirely by my subconcious, I don't know.

Do I want to believe such communication is possible. Yes.

My brother passed away unexpectedly a few months ago, and there is nothing I would like more than to speak with him again.

Tony
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 01:55PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Do they look, feel and behave as water? They don't do they...they are called clouds because they behave differently to the water in your glass...

Unless you ask a chilled glass of sparkling cloud? [/quote]

Since you brought it up...
If you leave water in a glass, it will evaporate, float in air as you mentioned earlier, and some will become cloud. :) [/quote]

i'm afraid it wouldn't, tony...that's not how clouds form...clouds form in warm, moist air.

only on a forum would a discussion about one person's views on seances, turn into how clouds form....
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 01:58PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
I cannot argue for or against speaking with the dead.

Yes, I talk to them, but am not sure that they answer back.

I do get answers in dreams and in thoughts.
These could be from the beyond, influenced from the beyond, or created entirely by my subconcious, I don't know.

Do I want to believe such communication is possible. Yes.

My brother passed away unexpectedly a few months ago, and there is nothing I would like more than to speak with him again.

Tony [/quote]

i would love to reply to this properly, but it would cover subject matter not allowed on the magic Café...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 02:19PM)
I can't bring myself to make another post on the subject, if you want to belief that it does - then I'm happy for you :)
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Jan 11, 2016 02:24PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, IAIN wrote:
I can't bring myself to make another post on the subject, if you want to belief that it does - then I'm happy for you :) [/quote]

http://www.livescience.com/44785-how-do-clouds-form.html

If you meant the metaphysical post where I said I just don't know. I have to believe that as it is the truth, and when I do know, it may be to late to state.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 11, 2016 04:16PM)
Some seances work, and I'm sure you see that as a big problem. Paranormal events happen all the time.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 04:30PM)
Its not about choosing to have a big problem with something, its about thinking about the implications of what we believe...i personally think its vital and very important, others don't - and that's fine...i'm not out to change anyone's mind... just thought it might be interesting to talk about it... others can start their own thread and talk about their their viewpoint(s) too...

for me, I have a certain range of questions that I feel is important to ask and think about...its not even about right or wrong really - its more about a ripple effect...
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 11, 2016 04:38PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2016, IAIN wrote:
Its not about choosing to have a big problem with something, its about thinking about the implications of what we believe...i personally think its vital and very important, others don't - and that's fine...i'm not out to change anyone's mind... just thought it might be interesting to talk about it... others can start their own thread and talk about their their viewpoint(s) too...

for me, I have a certain range of questions that I feel is important to ask and think about...its not even about right or wrong really - its more about a ripple effect... [/quote]
This is why I'm "Again" suggesting that you read the works of Arthur Ford. He goes way beyond the "IF" and explains the "Why", answering many of your questions directly.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jan 11, 2016 04:49PM)
Yeah, but you assume I've not read it! and again, it takes more than a single person's experiences (whether fraudulent or not) for something to become reality...

and that is a statement for me and my world...there's no reason to act offended or annoyed, just accepted...everyone is entitled to allow whatever they like in version of this world...the arguments start when it gets into the "well, this is a FACT!"...

there are arguments a million times over when one person tells someone else that something is a fact, when they only have experience, belief and hopes for something that they want to be true...because two different versions of the world then collide and don't match up...that's when the discussion should end...

for example, if you break a limb, its probably healthy to go to the hospital and get it set and fixed...some people might believe its better if you just left it...there is lots and lots of evidence to support the notion that its probably better to get it set by a doctor...you CAN leave it to heal naturally, but you might get blood poisoning and die, or it fuses back together in a warped way etc...you might even hear of someone, somewhere you set it themselves and it worked out fine... good for them... doesn't mean that happens consistently though...
Message: Posted by: Randwill (Jan 11, 2016 04:54PM)
"And THAT, my friend, is a FACT!" is what you frequently hear after someone has loudly stated an opinion.