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Topic: Magma - HD Impression Device / Wallet
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 09:12AM)
Some people on this forum already know about this new product, and its finally available.

This has been something I was working on for countless months,
i was never happy with the resolution of other systems, along with the lack of guarantee of having a clear duplication,
that's why my research on Magma started and I am very proud of the result.

Magma includes a perfect truly organic Wallet to match the requirements needed for this product, and lot of ideas
to use the system and peek the data.

i am the creator of this mentalism product so I will be happy to answer any question.

More info can be read at http://mentalbrush.com/index.php?SMExt=SMPages&SMPagesFilename=Magma

[youtube]80AbfBEGfhU[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Marc O (Feb 22, 2016 09:49AM)
Password protected...
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 09:55AM)
Sorry, my fault. Its open now.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Feb 22, 2016 10:14AM)
Well that was a waste of time. How about a video of the product in action?
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Feb 22, 2016 10:17AM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
Well that was a waste of time. How about a video of the product in action? [/quote]


Its an impression device.. what kind of video do you expect?
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 10:18AM)
How does this improve on what's already on the market?
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Feb 22, 2016 10:19AM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
Well that was a waste of time. How about a video of the product in action? [/quote]


Its an impression device.. what kind of video do you expect? [/quote]

So you'd be happy to buy the product from watching that video then?
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Feb 22, 2016 10:25AM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
Well that was a waste of time. How about a video of the product in action? [/quote]


Its an impression device.. what kind of video do you expect? [/quote]

So you'd be happy to buy the product from watching that video then? [/quote]

No, I would based on reviews. You don't see videos for imp devices that expose the workings. If you saw a video, it would be of a typical routine- and you would say that's not helpful.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 10:27AM)
Ok, I've checked out your website and it seems that this has a clearer, crisper imp than what's currently available.

It appears that you've discovered a better m******c material for this application than what the other guys have so I'm very interested.

As you are being very open about how it works, why not post a pic of an actual impression through a couple of sheets. If you really have done the above, then you are going to have a big hit on your hands.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan1000 (Feb 22, 2016 10:34AM)
I do have a couple of questions:

Do you use the wallet as a writing platform?

What does the pen look like?

Thank you :)
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 10:34AM)
Hi Sean Giles,

yes of course, it can bypass several sheets without any problem, even up to two business cards, that's around the thickness of a credits card,

i am not sure if its even allowed to post the inner workings of a product in exposed view,
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 10:35AM)
Not the inner workings, just a photo of a word on a sheet.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 10:36AM)
Jonathan1000 yes I do use the wallet as a writing platform, but is not needed, its just an added bonus as its a very special wallet designed to allow
a one hand extraction without even open the wallet,

is a sharpie the pen,
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 10:46AM)
I got your video and have seen the material you are using so thank you for that. I've got to ask you though, have you ever seen the Paralabs material? You should contact them immediately before going any further with your product.
Message: Posted by: selectedmagic (Feb 22, 2016 10:49AM)
Not sure what I just watched. Wish there's more product info.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 10:51AM)
Hi Sean,

yes I know paralabs, I did talk with Rainer several times,

this product is an improved system,
parapad allows a much higher thickness to bypass, but with lower resolution
Magma allows much better resolution but with lower thickness covers.

thanks
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Feb 22, 2016 11:42AM)
Sorry to say but awful video IF this is supposed to be the trailer for it. IF this is a teaser, then ok but am looking forward to the actual trailer showing a performance of this being performed and demonstrated (showing potential with demo of the bus cards etc). And no nothing will be exposed as it would be shot from a spectators perspective and what they would see. You wouldn't be able to back track and duplicate this yourself as you can't replicate the gimmick so no reason for a edited uncut video of this.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 11:50AM)
PRINCE I don't have a great camera, neither people that talks english good enought for a trailer, so I end up making a simple video without performance,
no long routines are included in this product, just lot of ways to use it, any way, in a performance all you would see is someone writing and a mentalist revealing it.. same reaction you will have with any other impression system like HPAD, Parapad, Psypher, Informant...
The difference is the trace resolution, the special wallet and lot of ideas of use.
Message: Posted by: Looch (Feb 22, 2016 12:02PM)
Id recommend showing the clarity of impression for us to see.
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Feb 22, 2016 12:12PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, MinSting wrote:
PRINCE I don't have a great camera, neither people that talks english good enought for a trailer, so I end up making a simple video without performance,
no long routines are included in this product, just lot of ways to use it, any way, in a performance all you would see is someone writing and a mentalist revealing it.. same reaction you will have with any other impression system like HPAD, Parapad, Psypher, Informant...
The difference is the trace resolution, the special wallet and lot of ideas of use. [/quote]

But to be honest there was not even a point of doing that simple trailer unless it was a teaser awaiting a proper trailer - no one has gotten anything from that trailer to be fair. Plus you are claiming an improvement e.g going through business cards etc then at least show that so we could get excited about it - then at the end just show the impression on the card so we can see how clear it is even through the thickness of the bus cards etc. You can't expect people to buy it or get excited just based on this.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 12:34PM)
I just send some private messages.
Message: Posted by: pegasus (Feb 22, 2016 12:34PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, TuneHV wrote:
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, pegasus wrote:
Well that was a waste of time. How about a video of the product in action? [/quote]


Its an impression device.. what kind of video do you expect? [/quote]

So you'd be happy to buy the product from watching that video then? [/quote]

No, I would based on reviews. You don't see videos for imp devices that expose the workings. If you saw a video, it would be of a typical routine- and you would say that's not helpful. [/quote]

Sho
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Feb 22, 2016 12:46PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, MinSting wrote:
I just send some private messages. [/quote]

Thanks v much :thumbsup:
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 12:47PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2016, MinSting wrote:
Hi Sean,

yes I know paralabs, I did talk with Rainer several times,

this product is an improved system,
parapad allows a much higher thickness to bypass, but with lower resolution
Magma allows much better resolution but with lower thickness covers.

thanks [/quote]

This is the same material that they use yes? obviously the thinner the paper, the clearer the impression. It's always the case but how can you claim a superior impression if you're using the same material?

On top of that the wallet idea you are using is the same as Robert Smiths on his Psypher DVD. In the video it looks like you've added Parlabs material to Psyphers wallet. Whats the difference?
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 12:57PM)
Hi Sean

yes the system is the same used in parapad, check out the private message to see the big differences.

and no, the wallet used in psypher is not the same one I am using for magma, the peek used in psypher was a "facepalm" to me.
the wallet I am using is designed to allow a one hand in pocket removal without opening the wallet. Its designed to split the connection between the wallet and the peek,
The wallet in magma can be opened freely by the spectator, there is nothing to hide, neither to hold with a rubberband.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Feb 22, 2016 01:09PM)
Ok, I was hoping you had found a new material. I have my own way of using this stuff that doesn't use a wallet or pad but thanks anyway.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 22, 2016 01:19PM)
Its not "new", but its really improved in clarity,
hope some reviews come in soon.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Feb 23, 2016 09:20AM)
I took the plunge... let's see.
Message: Posted by: saysold1 (Feb 23, 2016 09:42AM)
Lets be clear that the material is only ONE component of getting what you need - the other being the writing device and what is inside of it.

The term used for these kinds of devices as I recall are "spread" and so the factor(s) in play are the imp material, pen and how it's gimmick matches with the material used, and then thickness and # of sheets of paper.

If the creator says the clarity is better than the standard bearer PP - I would be curious as to WHY if the same film material is used?

Better gimmick in the pen? It isn't just the strength but the spread as I recall.
Message: Posted by: ArtIn (Feb 23, 2016 02:41PM)
[quote]On Feb 23, 2016, saysold1 wrote:
Lets be clear that the material is only ONE component of getting what you need - the other being the writing device and what is inside of it.

The term used for these kinds of devices as I recall are "spread" and so the factor(s) in play are the imp material, pen and how it's gimmick matches with the material used, and then thickness and # of sheets of paper.

If the creator says the clarity is better than the standard bearer PP - I would be curious as to WHY if the same film material is used?

Better gimmick in the pen? It isn't just the strength but the spread as I recall. [/quote]

Thank you Brett!
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Feb 23, 2016 02:50PM)
Yes, there is custom made precision gimmick in the pen to achieve this HD result.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 18, 2016 04:50PM)
MinSting did a great job!

Finally even small written words are easy to see * nice small wallet, the Rorschach cards makes so much sense.

Using it as delay peek aswell and I'm so glad I bought this.

CONGRATS :applause:
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 18, 2016 08:02PM)
I'm intrigued by the product, especially at 42 euros, I am very tempted.
Any photos of the wallet ? How sizeable it is ? Can I put bills and cards in there ? I would like to see a live performance with the impression device and wallet (I won't mind even if it's by MP). Thanks for any clarification.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 19, 2016 01:00AM)
Mh1001 its a card holder PVC wallet with a specific feature, not a leather bill wallet,
i tried to use leather but its too thick for a good impresion, so the PVC one was the single option, cheaper, organic and better impression
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 19, 2016 01:52AM)
Mh1001 I did send you a private message,
Message: Posted by: Relick666 (Jun 19, 2016 02:06AM)
This looks insane!

I'm "impressed", lol.

Save one for me :)
Message: Posted by: VIEW (Jun 19, 2016 05:42AM)
Can I see an impression comparison please
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 19, 2016 09:55AM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, VIEW wrote:
Can I see an impression comparison please [/quote]

Yes, I would like to see that as well. And I am tempted, even though I already own PP. PM me if you like.
Message: Posted by: Karl M (Jun 19, 2016 10:27AM)
I love the way the light fades out rahter then just goes out suddenely it looks like your hand is really heating it up
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 19, 2016 10:51AM)
Video sent to me. This is a big improvement!!! Wow.
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Jun 19, 2016 11:27AM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Karl M wrote:
I love the way the light fades out rahter then just goes out suddenely it looks like your hand is really heating it up [/quote]

What?!?!?!? Oh dear 'mate'
:rotf:
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 19, 2016 11:55AM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Karl M wrote:
I love the way the light fades out rahter then just goes out suddenely it looks like your hand is really heating it up [/quote]

errrr.....wrong Magma. hahahahahah
Message: Posted by: Karl M (Jun 19, 2016 12:50PM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, PRINCE wrote:
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Karl M wrote:
I love the way the light fades out rahter then just goes out suddenely it looks like your hand is really heating it up [/quote]

What?!?!?!? Oh dear 'mate'
:rotf: [/quote]
what have you not seen the demo vid, bit behind the times mate lol
Message: Posted by: catweazle (Jun 19, 2016 12:57PM)
Wrong thread Karl, you mean this Magma,
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=618550&forum=218
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Jun 19, 2016 01:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Karl M wrote:
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, PRINCE wrote:
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, Karl M wrote:
I love the way the light fades out rahter then just goes out suddenely it looks like your hand is really heating it up [/quote]

What?!?!?!? Oh dear 'mate'
:rotf: [/quote]
what have you not seen the demo vid, bit behind the times mate lol [/quote]

Jesus Karl you still don't get it - come on now dear chap - YOUR ON THE WRONG THREAD - even after people have pointed it out you, still decide to try and challenge me on my apparent in correction 'mate'. Your a bit waaaaay behind the times lol
Message: Posted by: Karl M (Jun 19, 2016 01:03PM)
What are you on abuot mate? I don't get it why are you giving me the banjo.,
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Jun 19, 2016 01:12PM)
Karl, serious question now... Do you realise your on the wrong thread with your comments?
Message: Posted by: Relick666 (Jun 19, 2016 01:31PM)
Ok, after taking a closer look, I admit the impression looks really good, but I'm a bit put off by the price.

Also, the same effect can be accomplished with the BMW Wallet with no need for the marker, so still on the fence.

Cheers!

Andreu.
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jun 19, 2016 02:49PM)
Sorry, but I just can't help having this mental image of Karl M ordering this wallet and then trying to hide it in his hand and make it glow. :)
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 19, 2016 03:02PM)
The impression quality is even better than the Parapad. MinSting has been so kind to show me a photo with comparison of Parapad and Magma. And even an unedited performance with the wallet. And I'm about to buy it (I contacted MinSting for this occasion). I don't see why some people should still be on the fence. Really, it's so good, and the price is not too high in my opinion. It's more than correct. I think you can even do a routine when you steal the impression, load it on your wallet (JOL, Hwallet, Infinity, HOW, etc.) inside an envelop, and hand it out to another spectator so he can read out loud what's written.
Message: Posted by: PRINCE (Jun 19, 2016 03:02PM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, videoman wrote:
Sorry, but I just can't help having this mental image of Karl M ordering this wallet and then trying to hide it in his hand and make it glow. :) [/quote]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - that has got to be the funniest post ive read all week :lol:

Then after it doesn't glow, he posts his thoughts on the other magma thread about his thoughts on how good the impression is :lol:
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 19, 2016 05:07PM)
So this is a wallet? What makes it glow. A fire wallet?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 19, 2016 05:19PM)
Minsting confirmed to me that his definition of HD is that it works very well through two index cards, but my example of through 4 index cards would not give the same kind of clarity...and I don't like the idea of a PVC wallet, for me personally, they don't look good and are often a bit shiny and cheap looking...

for me, I'm sticking with the paranormal wallet, because it looks and feels classy, and I love the overall quality and methodology, as well as the set-up...

obviously, I don't own this, though have seen some pictures that Minsting sent me via PM, but for me - the depth and quality of the PL stuff is what I want...
Message: Posted by: BlakeAdams (Jun 19, 2016 06:36PM)
If I understand, the secret for the hd is in the writing device and that everything else is the same. could one use this for a paraded product and just use the pen?
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 19, 2016 10:59PM)
[quote]On Jun 19, 2016, BlakeAdams wrote:
If I understand, the secret for the hd is in the writing device and that everything else is the same. could one use this for a paraded product and just use the pen? [/quote]

yes, but you can't use the pen in the parapad pad, in their setup the cover layer is too thick, you will need the pen they provide,
regards
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 20, 2016 11:29AM)
Someone should advise this fellow on how to conduct business on the internet. The photos and video were great but the purchasing procedure was more than a bit off putting. If you have a business that is offering products to this market people should know 1) who you are, 2) where you are, 3) have a clearly defined method of payment on your website. No, I will not send you money as a friend or family. Who are you? No, I will not pay your Paypal fees. Bad business model. Suggest you put a Paypal link on your page, tell people who you are and at least where you are located. I'm not saying you are dishonest and that my payment to "a friend or family" will just disappear into the ether, but in this day and age I just won't buy anything from someone I don't know in this manner. Best of luck.

And are you saying that the PP is too thick the way you have to use them?
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 20, 2016 11:46AM)
Jaizon, like I told you by mail I am located in Spain, no info is hidden, its already in the website in the contact area,

i am very sorry about you getting mad because of the added paypal fee to the final price, lot of companies just add the fee to the item price so its transparent to the user, and others add them in the check out along with the shipping,
is not that big deal honestly,

i told you to use the personal transfer because the fees are lower, and when I told you to use the normal payment so you feel safer, then 2€ fee became a fortune,
please don't make me look like a dishonest person, you had the same amswer to every guy who bought magma, and never had such big reaction/complain

again, you are right, I am very sorry, I will change the price to 44€ so this doesn't happen again,

David,
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 20, 2016 11:55AM)
No problem, other than you seem to have missed my points. Best of luck.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 20, 2016 12:06PM)
MinSting there's always room for improvement (business/customers) and you are doing it as you mention above.

It seems jayzon missed that you did accept his point and made the changes but unfortunately he didn't realized that.
Everyone make mistakes and only those who aknowledge them and work toward to fix them are the ones who grow up.

Thanks for this release // really special you did the all the research and went for all the trouble/time/money to make improvements where others gave up!

Already got the other Pen and I'm simply loving it :bg:
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 20, 2016 12:22PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, Lseeyou wrote:
MinSting there's always room for improvement (business/customers) and you are doing it as you mention above.

It seems jayzon missed that you did accept his point and made the changes but unfortunately he didn't realized that.
Everyone make mistakes and only those who aknowledge them and work toward to fix them are the ones who grow up.

Thanks for this release // really special you did the all the research and went for all the trouble/time/money to make improvements where others gave up!

Already got the other Pen and I'm simply loving it :bg: [/quote]

He made no changes on his website -- even in the contact information. But on the internet you can say anything and it must be true.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 20, 2016 01:44PM)
Jaizon lying is not an healthy thing... website says 44€ - I'm looking into it but nevermind I'm out of here.
Nothing to add but praise this release!

All the best guys
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 20, 2016 02:43PM)
Hahahahaha yes, he finally changed it. and raised his price so the buyer pays for paypal. nice. Still no link to paypal, no last name, no address. All is good, though.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 20, 2016 03:03PM)
Jaizon, I already understood you don't like the way I sell it, you don't like the website, you want the paypal button or a shopping cart, you don't want pay the paypal fee, and so on...
i apreciate your contribution and tips, you are not forced to buy anything, but I will be grateful if you can make an effort to keep this thread cleaner,

regards
Message: Posted by: jaizon (Jun 20, 2016 03:08PM)
I'm out.
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 20, 2016 03:49PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, jaizon wrote:
Hahahahaha yes, he finally changed it. and raised his price so the buyer pays for paypal. nice. Still no link to paypal, no last name, no address. All is good, though. [/quote]
I bought it before he changed the price, but it means nothing because I had to pay the 2.02 euros fee. The total is still 51 euros (42+7+2). Anyway, I think the device it pretty *** awesome, and I will comment on this as soon as I receive the item.
Message: Posted by: Karl M (Jun 20, 2016 04:17PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, jaizon wrote:
I'm out. [/quote]
you're loss
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 20, 2016 04:38PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, Karl M wrote:
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, jaizon wrote:
I'm out. [/quote]
you're loss [/quote]



uh oh, Kid Karl is starting a war.
Message: Posted by: mastermindreader (Jun 20, 2016 05:43PM)
If the Magma pen doesn't work with the ParaPad because its cover is too thick, and given the statement that the ParaPen can penetrate through significantly more sheets than the Magma pen, the obvious conclusion is that the gimmick in the Magma Pen tip is slightly weaker, or set further back into the tip of the pen. That would also account for the diminished halo.

With the ParaPen kit, which enables you to create new pens at will with precision placement of the gimmick, it would be a simple matter to use one of the tools provided to push the ParaPen gimmick slightly further back into the pen tip, thus achieving, at the expense of penetrating power, the same quality image through fewer sheets as the Magma Pen.

It seems that a simple experiment would determine if this is, in fact, the case.

Note that the ParaPen kit comes with two different size m*****s, one slightly narrower than the other. Those were intended to be used in thinner pens with narrower tips than a Sharpie. So you might want to try putting one of those narrower gimmicks into a Sharpie tip and see if and how the halo is affected.

I seem to remember either Ranier or Thomas of ParaLabs telling me , several years ago, that the narrower m****t enhanced the definition of small writing.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 20, 2016 06:02PM)
Hi mastermindreader,
the gimmick in the pen has been custom made, its not about how deep it is inside the pen, I try it to be as next to the tip as possible,
i would like to make it more powerfull but it has been already manufactured selecting the highest power available, so I can't break physics law,

i did test parapad pen and it can bypass even the thickness of a thinn hardbook cover, not good result but it could...
magma is limited to about 0.8 mm thickness, that's two business card, 3 or 4 index cards max, soft cover books, pvc wallet, a deck box, and about 10 or more foils, I didn't count them,

parapad has been the base and the inspiration for magma, so I will always recommend their products, if you need bypass thicker covers, parapad is your choice,
they have good customer service, and they always treat me well
Message: Posted by: Magical Dimensions (Jun 20, 2016 09:23PM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, MinSting wrote: (IN PART)

parapad has been the base and the inspiration for magma, so I will always recommend their products, if you need bypass thicker covers, parapad is your choice,
they have good customer service, and they always treat me well [/quote]



So you are saying that you are selling your own version of ParaPad? Isn't that like.... ohhhh, I don't know, ...... Like a rip off? And by having a cheap wallet included in your package, are you not also selling your version of the ParaNaormal Wallet? ..... Isn't that also like a rip off?


What was the moment that you had an inspiration of creating your magma? Was it after seeing the Para stuff? Was after seeing how the ParaPad and wallet worked, did you come up with the idea of using props really, really, really, did I say really, Like Para? If so, then it is a rip off.


Ray
Message: Posted by: Relick666 (Jun 20, 2016 10:53PM)
Hey Ray, I would say that would be to harsh, as far as I know David has also invested tons of money, time and effort to create Magma.

Both achieve the same outcome, but I understand they have their own advantages / disadvantages correct?

Well, I guess the correct thing would be to talk to the PL guys about it, just so everything's as clear as the impression. ;)

Cheers!

Andreu
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 21, 2016 01:06AM)
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, Magical Dimensions wrote:
[quote]On Jun 20, 2016, MinSting wrote: (IN PART)

parapad has been the base and the inspiration for magma, so I will always recommend their products, if you need bypass thicker covers, parapad is your choice,
they have good customer service, and they always treat me well [/quote]



So you are saying that you are selling your own version of ParaPad? Isn't that like.... ohhhh, I don't know, ...... Like a rip off? And by having a cheap wallet included in your package, are you not also selling your version of the ParaNaormal Wallet? ..... Isn't that also like a rip off?


What was the moment that you had an inspiration of creating your magma? Was it after seeing the Para stuff? Was after seeing how the ParaPad and wallet worked, did you come up with the idea of using props really, really, really, did I say really, Like Para? If so, then it is a rip off.


Ray [/quote]

yes, and HPAD is a ripoff of Psypher, The informant is a ripoff of psypher,
blackmail is also a ripoff, as the tecnology used is way old, everything is a ripoff, right?
no, I didn't get inspired about paranormal wallet because I don't like the way its used,
after lot of reserach trying to improve any old or known tecnologies, I am using the same tecnology used by parapad but with other features like the improved definition and ways to use it, most things in magic and in the world, stands on the shoulders of old ideas,

in fact I have been very open about its features and tecnology,
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 21, 2016 04:17AM)
Oh no I'm back...

Apple did the first Multitouch Sensor Phone (no keypad)... then came along LG, Samsung, HTC, etc... they all incorporate the available technology.
Roughing Spray, Roughing Wax so many different options - Is all a rip off? NO

IF Paralabs did manufactured the sheets now things would be totally different.

What MinSting did was finding an way to improve the legibility of the impression for written small words by spending his time and his money to give people an option that doesn't existed!
I had a Paralab Pad but for me it didn't work as I wanted... some people write in small letters (even when you ask to go big), drawings were the only safe net and even that sometimes people would draw small size. Now using the technology I can manage to build a different setup plus having MinSting option I'm all good! Small or Big I will read have a reading :bg:

Grown up people praise improvements not the other way around.

A suggestion: you guys need to take a break, enjoy the coffee and give yourself time to think the way you behave... the clock is ticking.
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 21, 2016 05:35AM)
Even if I'm biased as a matter fact in this case, I guess the critic here is not about improvments. It's about respect and politeness in advance of a release.

To clarify: As MinSting mentioned, we all "stand on the shoulders of old ideas". But that's not the point.

When we released our Depicting Thoughts book, we utilized a routine of Bob Cassidy and modified it to fit our needs. AND we intended to publish it! So prior to our publication we sent Bob the script and the tools and asked for his persmission.
Bob kindly provided his persmission and obviously we gave a proper credit.

When we worked on our first ESP cards we used a modification of the back design known from the Beyond ESP Deck by Michael Murray. So we sent Michael our development and asked for permission. In this case Michael was not happy with it, so we moved on and came up with a different idea.

When we developed the ParaPad about 10 years ago we had some prototypes first that were in a particular way similar to John Riggs Butterfly ... even if the imp technology was different. So we sent John a prototype prior to a release, John provided some helpful remarks and things that made us ponder (he's an engineer after all) and finally we developed something that not only was good for us, but also got John's OK.

What (we think) is appropriate for publications of routine variations which are based on the work of others is appropriate for the release of tools as well. I personally think this is a matter of respect. We would never ever publish a routine or release a product without discussing this release with the one on whoms "shoulders" we stand. Even if our release or product only had a remote/distant ancestor, we always connected with the creator in question.

A matter of good behavior and respect from my point of view. And you know what? In 9 out of 10 cases we were welcomed with open arms and received nothing but help and kindness. Be it from Bob Cassidy, Richard Osterlind ... you name him. In fact the only case we didn't get a persmission was from Michael Murray; but I totally understood (and understand) his reservations and this caused a further development to a solution that was even better than our initial one. So we have to be thankful to Michael for his reservations ... and I'm happy to call him a friend today.

Again, it's not about improvement. It's about how to deal with other creatives.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 21, 2016 06:31AM)
ParaLabs I did contact your company time ago about the fact I was thinking into release a wallet that probably will be using parapad tecnology, but still was making lot of tests,
i did not "ask permision" per sé, but neither had any objection,
I am very sorry if that did made you feel unrespected to you or Rainer in any way, was not my intention at all.
next time I will put more time contacting the shoulders of other creatives,
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jun 21, 2016 06:47AM)
I did advise you back in February to contact Paralabs about this release. From your reply it seemed that you had done exactly that.
Message: Posted by: shakuni (Jun 21, 2016 06:49AM)
@MinSting

Sent you an email. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Magical Dimensions (Jun 21, 2016 07:50AM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2016, MinSting wrote:
ParaLabs I did contact your company time ago about the fact I was thinking into release a wallet that probably will be using parapad tecnology, but still was making lot of tests,
i did not "ask permision" per sé, but neither had any objection,
I am very sorry if that did made you feel unrespected to you or Rainer in any way, was not my intention at all.
next time I will put more time contacting the shoulders of other creatives, [/quote]


It seems that this is what younger people do these days.....

Old timers like me, might and sometimes will rework something that we have bought to better fit our wants and style. I have a ParaNormal Wallet. And yes, I thought about moving the thinking of it OVER to other things. But I paid my money for the wallet and am using the Imp idea for me. If I move the workings to something else or change something, it STILL is the ParaLab ideas. If I go and buy a different wallet and just because I use a slimmer gimmick, still makes it a ParaNormal idea. And it don't give me the right to sell my own. Look at it like this. Your idea is the same as ParaLabs. You only thought of it AFTER you learn of how ParaLabs imp works. You didn't reinvent anything. You just made it fit your needs and style. And that is normal and expected. But to sell the same idea as your own, is just mind blowing.

You did nothing wrong as far as the law is concern. But by doing so, you shown that you can't be trusted with respecting others ideas.

I remember reading a post years ago about a new marketed routine. Then another person said that he invented a new routine/effect because he did the very same marketed effect differently. Instead of doing the effect as written, he claimed that he created a new effect by doing X-Y and Z. Instead of maybe doing a double turn over he might have done a pass. And by doing so, he thought that he created a NEW effect. When actually it was the VERY same effect only the guy made it fit him by using a move that was easier for him. This is a natural thing to do. The promblem comes when people think that they have created a different animal when in fact, if you were to step back and look, it is the very same thing.




Ray Noble
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 21, 2016 08:37AM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2016, Sean Giles wrote:
I did advise you back in February to contact Paralabs about this release. From your reply it seemed that you had done exactly that. [/quote]
Well, MinSting was a customer of ours. That's right. Personally I can't remember that we discussed a release of a similar product and that we didn't had any objections.
But that may be caused by my bad memory, ...

Anyway, it is what it is.

About half of our revenues go to charities anyway, which means that we don't have to earn our livings from offering our creative work ... fortunately. So, it's all not earth-shattering; there are other more serious issues out there. As I said, it's rather a matter of style but we have not to overstrain the topic.

So, good luck for the future!
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 21, 2016 08:41AM)
Most magic tricks ends up to be a spin off of something else,
and there are tons of them, some people even took the boogie board, put a sticker and sell it as a mentalism innovation, now that's way closer to a rip off,
if we stop innovation because something new share same base as something else, there would be zero progression.
i had been widly open with inner workings and always define it as using "parapad tecnology" even if its known the film is not manufactured by them,
I did apologize openly to paralabs in case they feel unrespected, never hide the way it works and the differences between both, and neither said its my own idea, its just my own research into improvements.
paralabs has all my respects and I apologize again for any inconvenience
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 21, 2016 06:54PM)
I think Min made a mistake, and he gets it.

I don't see him ducking the topic in any way either.
He messed up, and handled it.
I also get the impression (...don't say it...) he won't make it again.

Everyone had solid opinions on this.

I declare PL in the right lol, but think that Min sounds like a decent/stand up guy.
I love my PL stuff, but if I had some expendable income, I'd try his version happily.

All the best folks :)
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jun 21, 2016 11:28PM)
I'm not referring to this incident specifically but it just amazes me how often this sort of thing has happened, especially lately it seems.
The creators of a new release "kinda, sorta" check with the original creator, at least enough to feel like they can claim they did.
But then it comes out that they never actually discussed the details (or sometimes anything.)

IMO there seems to be an epidemic of preferring to ask forgiveness after the fact rather than asking permission beforehand.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 01:45AM)
I hear ya Videoman.
The old "better to beg forgivness than ask permission" mentality.
Message: Posted by: Martin.Lester (Jun 22, 2016 07:27AM)
I already have the ParaPad and looking at the website with the lack of information I am not inclined to hit the Pay button
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 11:02AM)
I have parapads and paranormal wallet.
The wallet is my go to device and is used as my "regular" wallet as well.
even writing is perfectly clear most times.
So, imo, the price is hard to argue.
Plus, you can't beat the PL guys for customer service, etc.
And, they really are good guys, that sell a great, established product.
They have a reputation to protect as well.
I know they're established, and wont turn out to be some fly by night operation.
This kind of stuff is important to me personally.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 22, 2016 11:12AM)
Since someone used plastic slate... many applications were released.
since someone used graphite slate... many applications were released.
since someone used white/grey magnetic sheet... many applications were released.
since someone used gold magnetic sheet... you can't.

IN THIS CASE * It's not just the magnetic sheet!!!
This guy went for all the trouble to manufacture magnets to release a better pen which gives a better resolution impression and you guys are focusing on the magnet sheet?
He didn't Rip Off and didn't Copy anything - GO AFTER who DOES IT, there's plenty around here!

CRAZY * WHAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING :confused:

FYI I don't know the guy and payed everything * I'm a Paralabs client aswell.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 12:07PM)
Lseeyou, I honestly don't want to ruffle feathers, but...
There's been great discussion all about this topic, all sides of it.
You seem to think there is one collective opinion here,
some agreed upon concensious or something.
People have expressed opinions and views from many perspectives.
Guess I'm trying to say it's not clearly black and white always.
Some think it's development, improvement, and progress.
Others think it's a ripoff, etc.
Ultimately, in this instance, I really think it was a (honest enough)
mistake by someone new to releasing material.
The PL guys seem to be very good at communicating with other creators.
They seem to treat others as they like to be treated, and it shows.
Not everyone keeps courtousy, honesty, and resspect on the front burner.
Sadly.

Anyway, another barly awake, soon to be regretted post..is now set free into the wild.


Be free little post, be free...
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 22, 2016 12:11PM)
"Magma includes a clever and thin PVC Organic Wallet"

I just want to know how the heck something made from PVC can be organic (which must be the most overused descriptive in magic)
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 12:12PM)
And btw, he slimmed up the *pen part...resulting in a huge reduction in penetration.
So, no. It's honestly not the same imo as your list of examples.
Honestly though, it fills a void for finer print, and with the lower price point.
But...you get exactly the same result (if you want to fine tune) as with any PL item.
My opinion based on my experience.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 12:14PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2016, Joe Atmore wrote:
"Magma includes a clever and thin PVC Organic Wallet"

I just want to know how the heck something made from PVC can be organic (which must be the most overused descriptive in magic) [/quote]

Yup :)
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 22, 2016 12:25PM)
@JoeAtmore - not the best description as you mention... its a slim wallet for business cards/credit cards... imo it doesn't look cheap // nothing like the black cheap plastic wallets that some packet tricks come with.

@252life - yes reduction in penetration BUT way better resolution * with this slim wallet you don't need more power.

Peace Out :bg:
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 12:35PM)
Lseeyou...thanks for forcing me to spend more $$ lol.
Guess I'm curious enough to put this to rest personally, and see for myself.
Maybe.
It was good to hear that the pvc case isn't as cheap as some I've seen.

I'm all over the place with this one.

Anyone know a good life coach?
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 22, 2016 12:50PM)
@252life I didn't regret buying and I bought a lot of impression stuff (sold almost all) and this I wont sell for sure!
I've been using it almost daily because it's that Good and lot of Fun * for me at last - Love the Roschach cards and the delay peek.

Life coach... interesting you mention it.
I found One and for my surprise... God!
My relationship with Him has no costs only profit! Getting better each day, real results inside out :bg:

Have a great week and let me know when you get Magma, curious to know what you think.
Message: Posted by: JasonL2112 (Jun 22, 2016 01:33PM)
MinSting, I would be very interested in a PM with pics of the wallet and imp quality...
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 01:57PM)
Will do Lsee.
Always fun talking about this stuff either way though, huh?

You convinced me.
Or my curiosity did.
Gonna order it now, and I look forward to a real review.
I'm trusting your opinion mostly Lsee,
you obviously have been around the Imp block as well lol.


Hope the days treating everyone well.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 02:00PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2016, JasonL2112 wrote:
MinSting, I would be very interested in a PM with pics of the wallet and imp quality... [/quote]


I think that would be helpful to many :)

I'm taking the plunge though either way at this point.
I have zero self control.
Nada.
Zilch.
None.


:)
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 02:04PM)
Amazing.
Its out of stock at Penguin.

And not one review for it there....ugh!
Message: Posted by: JasonL2112 (Jun 22, 2016 02:09PM)
I don't think Penguin has this...? Only the other Magma effect (glowing hand).

[quote]On Jun 22, 2016, 252life wrote:
Amazing.
Its out of stock at Penguin.

And not one review for it there....ugh! [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 22, 2016 02:21PM)
@252life thanks for trusting me! go here not penguin > www.mentalbrush.com
Yes like you say its always fun to talk about this things and yes I've been around the Imp Block for a long time :rotf:

If you don't like it, I don't think you will but we never know... I will take it from you ok? :bg:

Waiting for you feedback.

Best!

btw I'm feeling like a salesman for this product lol where's my profit MinSting * Just kidding
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 02:36PM)
Lmao I like you Lsee.
No need to buy it back if worse case I don't appreciate it.
But, seriously, thanks a ton for the offer.
I just found, and ordered it, from Mystique Factory.
(First time. Never heard of them before)

What really has me interested is seeing the clarity with smaller writing.
Again, I currently use the PL Paranormal and pads.
Most times no problem with clarity in the least.
But, with writing, and detail, clearer is always nice.

Lsee, I know how it feels when you get behind a product,
to the point of looking like a stooge lol.
But don't sweat it, you don't :)
I do the same thing with any of Atlas Brookings stuff.
I could be his PR guy at this point lol, so I feel your pain.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 22, 2016 02:43PM)
252life I just send you a private message with your request,
you will receive nothing related to this thread on what you ordered, bacause its not available in any magic shop,
the magma you ordered I guess is the glowing hand,
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 22, 2016 02:48PM)
@252life I need another one or two so I can leave them in the suits I use.
im sure you would made me a good discount getting it back from you :bg:
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 02:59PM)
Yeah, Lsee....but I'll leave one word on it for ya lol.

Minsting, I ordered it (good grief. I hope..) from Mystique Factory.
Now I have to make sure I placed it correctly ugh.

Minsting sent me a pm that was very helpful with this decission.
(Thanks!)

Off to check that order.

252ImaBoneHead
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jun 22, 2016 03:01PM)
252life, you just bought a glowing hand
http://www.mystiquefactory.com/products/magma-by-kyle-marlett
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 22, 2016 03:11PM)
Thank you Sean.
I am an idiot.

Lmao...I would save myself so much trouble,
if I had coffee before trying to be functional.


Well, if I can't fix this order, who has a need for a glowing hand ?


Now I'm on a *** mission lol.
Message: Posted by: rmorrell (Jun 27, 2016 08:06AM)
Minsting is it possible I could see the comparison to the parapad please? Very interested in this as I was considering buying a parapad but this sounds even better!
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 27, 2016 06:01PM)
I received the product today, tried it and watched the video.

Good and bad things.

First, the Bad :

The tutorial is just a 12-minutes video (plus another video of 1 minute as an additional idea). I was hoping more things would have been told, about different ways to use Magma gimmick, etc. Among the ideas, there is one I really dislike : the pad. In its design, it looks exactly like Hpad by Henri Beaumont but worse because the rubber band is not well hidden. It looks so weird. Although you don't necessarily need to use rubber band (by using tape instead), the special sheet is way smaller than the A7 pad, and you must ensure your spectator is not writing even a little bit off center.

The gimmick is fragile, so take care of it. And no, the gimmick has nothing to do with the card holder. You can use a different support. But, in my opinion, MentalBrush thinks the card holder is the more efficient way to perform the effect. Best is to have some business cards (I don't have business cards - but I'll try to get a bunch of them in a way or another).

Then, the Good :

The quality of the impression, is really... good. I can't stop writing again and again (and wasting ink).

The method of peeking using the PVC card holder is indeed very deceptive. People won't see the connection between the card holder and the peek. The moves are justified, and no unnatural moves.

Another method I really like is to get a bunch of business cards (same size) held by a binder clip, with the special sheet second from the top. Give the entire stack of business cards to the spectator and ask him to write something on the business card at the top. It's that simple.

The reset using the ma***t looks good, really. The most deceptive way is to simply hide it into a pen. There is no refill except for changing ink from the gimmicked pen.

Conclusion :

The only other impression devices I own are Hpad by Henri Beaumont and Steam 2.0. Although I will never recommend you to buy Hpad (bad impression and terrible gimmicked pen), Steam 2.0 is a gem. But still, I prefer Magma over Steam 2.0. Mainly due to the quality of impression.

People here compares Magma with Parapad. Although the technology used is similar, Magma reminds me more of Steam than Parapad (I don't own it actually), main reason being that Magma is not a pad, and can be routined the same way (more or less) as Steam. (But for those who want to know, MinSting sent me a picture with Parapad vs Magma, and Magma is better than Parapad with respect to quality of impression.)

You should buy it, you definitely won't regret it. And if you regret your purchase, I may want to buy yours (at a discount of course). I may need an additional sheet (and an additional pen, just in case). It's really that good. I also think his product and this thread deserve more attention. This product does not have the success it deserves.
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 27, 2016 11:55PM)
Now, we kept still for while now but all this comparison sounds odd to me.
I already mentioned that MinSting neither was polite enough to discuss this release with us in advance not did he ever sent us anything to do a comparison on our own. Neither the tool ... not even pictures or anything.

Even when this issue was discussed here, he contacted me ... but only for some strange reason.
On the one hand he said ...

"i am very sorry if I should had ask your permission due ethical principles, if you want I stop selling magma I will."

To which I replied ...

"technically you can (and should) do whatever you find appropriate.
You know, as adults we all make our own decisions based on what we feel is the right or the wrong thing.

So, we won't push you in one direction or the other.
Make your decisions based on what you feel is right."

So, I was as modest and polite as usual - my fault! I was hoping for him to do the ethically right thing on his own without being forced. Which would have happened if his realization of the issue and his offer would have been meant seriously.

Now we see that his regret and offer was just a phrase as the further behaviour exposes what he feels is right, ethically.
The point is that contacting me afterwards was NOT a genuine regret and offer to stop, but an attempt to justify his way of dealing with others afterwards. This became clear in his next statement:

"to be honest, I would like to have your approval"

So, no serious regret and offer, just an attempt to whitewash his bad form and even more to be able to promote this rip off with our approval.



But what really annoys me on top of this right now is all this promoted self comparison of "his" development with ours. How can anyone believe hat this isn't biased but objective?
I could easily produce crystal clear clear impressions using the ParaPad and absolutely crabbed and unreadable ones. Using an old, damaged or badly prepared ParaPen will produce bad impressions for sure!
Does anyone really believe that this guy uses the best impression possible with a ParaPad to compare it with "his" device?

After giving my opinion in this thread I originally decided to keep still. But at some point even I am really ****ed off ... sorry for the words. Those who know me know that I always try to be as well-balanced, relaxed, polite and objective as can be. But at some point it's enough even for me and I have to speak my mind.

Please excuse my rant.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 28, 2016 12:44AM)
[quote]On Jun 27, 2016, mh1001 wrote:

People here compares Magma with Parapad. Although the technology used is similar, Magma reminds me more of Steam than Parapad (I don't own it actually), main reason being that Magma is not a pad, and can be routined the same way (more or less) as Steam. (But for those who want to know, MinSting sent me a picture with Parapad vs Magma, and Magma is better than Parapad with respect to quality of impression.)

You should buy it, you definitely won't regret it. And if you regret your purchase, I may want to buy yours (at a discount of course). I may need an additional sheet (and an additional pen, just in case). It's really that good. I also think his product and this thread deserve more attention. This product does not have the success it deserves. [/quote]

The Paralabs guys have offered many options for the technology, not just a pad. They've also offered a number of options for pens. If all that magma does is use a smaller m***** then I really can't see how this is supposed to be worthy of it's own release.

I very much am dubious about the pictures of the Magma vs the Parapad, since -- as mentioned above -- you can get super fine impressions with the parapad tech too, if you prepare a pen a certain way and only put it through 2 business cards....
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 28, 2016 02:17AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Jun 27, 2016, mh1001 wrote:

People here compares Magma with Parapad. Although the technology used is similar, Magma reminds me more of Steam than Parapad (I don't own it actually), main reason being that Magma is not a pad, and can be routined the same way (more or less) as Steam. (But for those who want to know, MinSting sent me a picture with Parapad vs Magma, and Magma is better than Parapad with respect to quality of impression.)

You should buy it, you definitely won't regret it. And if you regret your purchase, I may want to buy yours (at a discount of course). I may need an additional sheet (and an additional pen, just in case). It's really that good. I also think his product and this thread deserve more attention. This product does not have the success it deserves. [/quote]

The Paralabs guys have offered many options for the technology, not just a pad. They've also offered a number of options for pens. If all that magma does is use a smaller m***** then I really can't see how this is supposed to be worthy of it's own release.

I very much am dubious about the pictures of the Magma vs the Parapad, since -- as mentioned above -- you can get super fine impressions with the parapad tech too, if you prepare a pen a certain way and only put it through 2 business cards.... [/quote]
Hmm.. I'm confused. If you or someone else wants to show me the impression quality of a Parapad using a pen that is correctly prepared and badly prepared, please send me a mail/PM, and I may make a comparison.

Also, what do you mean by "They've also offered a number of options for pens" without giving anything way ? In my message, I said I like the fact that Magma can be used with different support. But Parapad only uses a pad (unless I missed something).
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Jun 28, 2016 03:31AM)
The parapad is only one of their products. Since the beginning, they've offered the tech stand alone, that is, you can use it in anything you can imagine. There are many applications documented. Some great ones are in the Secret Impressions book, for instance a stack of business cards. This has been around for a number of years. It's not just a pad.

As far as pens, Paralabs offers a construction kit that includes several different types of gimmicks that have different properties.

But mainly, I've never felt like the Parapad was 'low resolution' at all. It's always delivered, no matter how the spectator writes. Given that, I'd much prefer having the flexibility to have more pages in between the pen and the gimmick than a modest improvement in line width at the expense of depth.

I don't think this warrants it's own release. It's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 28, 2016 04:54AM)
100% agree with last laugh's post...this didn't need to be released at all...it adds zero to what is already available...
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 28, 2016 05:42AM)
I would go further than it "didn't need" to it "shouldn't have been" released. And frankly, I would never pull out a plastic wallet (ie. cheap) out of my pocket in front of a client. Oh, that's right-it's organic plastic! In my opinion, your tools and items should be of the highest quality for your brand, which is of course what Paralabs supplies. Unless of course....
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 28, 2016 05:52AM)
Everyone has the right for his opinion... mine is different.

I bought Parapad + Pen kit and don't use it but now use this (almost daily) * business side it fits awesome in an expensive suit.
For me better usage of a magnet impression and way better pen resolution magnet.

Conclusion: both are way different and the ONLY similarity is the magnet sheet nothing else.
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 28, 2016 06:09AM)
The similarity is the entire I.P.
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 28, 2016 07:36AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, Lseeyou wrote:
Everyone has the right for his opinion... mine is different.[/quote]
Correct. [i]Our[/i] opinion is that - apart from anything else - one should act based on appropriate moral and ethical standards, ... not to mention a particular dosis of respect.

But hey, - everyone has the right for his opinion... yours is different as you say correctly and you're in company of MinSting here.
It is what it is. So enjoy yourself.
Message: Posted by: Sean Giles (Jun 28, 2016 09:03AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, Lseeyou wrote:
Everyone has the right for his opinion... mine is different.

I bought Parapad + Pen kit and don't use it but now use this (almost daily) * business side it fits awesome in an expensive suit.
For me better usage of a magnet impression and way better pen resolution magnet.

Conclusion: both are way different and the ONLY similarity is the magnet sheet nothing else. [/quote]

A cheap plastic wallet fits 'awesome' in an expensive suit? I don't get that at all...
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 28, 2016 10:11AM)
Can't understand why those who don't have it, still
lucubrate for free with negative coments,
"pvc wallet is cr*p, you must use leather one". I use it with my suit and have zero problems to fit it, in fact I have a suit in the tutorial.
real leather was not an option, understand that I can't break physics laws.
"it adds nothing to the current available systems". not true, I invested months and money in research to improve any actual system,
"its a solutiong to a problem that does not exist". maybe not a problem you had, but I and others did. I own a parapad, The informant, psypher, steam, and most impressions in the market, none is able to get at same time, resolution + sensitivity, that's a fact. (electronics ones aside)
Magma has been a personal development that end up trying to fill a gap, rather than compite with other systems.
I don't understand why people think I did partner with anyone there, any positive or negative review there is genuine.
If you work with big pads, and you want high thickness penetration, just avoid your interest in magma, can be used on stage but since the size suplied has the size of a business card, its intended to have high resolution on organic situations, wallet, business cards, index cards, dekc of cards, and so on
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 28, 2016 10:46AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
Can't understand why those who don't have it, still
lucubrate for free with negative coments,
"pvc wallet is cr*p, you must use leather one". I use it with my suit and have zero problems to fit it, in fact I have a suit in the tutorial.
real leather was not an option, understand that I can't break physics laws.
"it adds nothing to the current available systems". not true, I invested months and money in research to improve any actual system,
"its a solutiong to a problem that does not exist". maybe not a problem you had, but I and others did. I own a parapad, The informant, psypher, steam, and most impressions in the market, none is able to get at same time, resolution + sensitivity, that's a fact. (electronics ones aside)
Magma has been a personal development that end up trying to fill a gap, rather than compite with other systems.
I don't understand why people think I did partner with anyone there, any positive or negative review there is genuine.
If you work with big pads, and you want high thickness penetration, just avoid your interest in magma, can be used on stage but since the size suplied has the size of a business card, its intended to have high resolution on organic situations, wallet, business cards, index cards, dekc of cards, and so on [/quote]


MinSting, while addressing several points, you neatly avoided the most salient; the overarching moral/ethical transgression of releasing your product. You can go on all you want about the issues you chose to cover while ignoring this but it is only digging yourself a deeper hole.

Thomas and Rainer have done incredible work over many years, benefiting the mentalism community enormously. What you've done and your responses to Thomas and the community's concerns add up to spitting in the face of ParaLabs and their many customers and fans. That you don't see this is stunning.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 28, 2016 10:59AM)
Has been discussed several times, each one as its own point of view,
accuse me of spit in the face of paralabs is beyond belief, moreover when there are just positive words from me to them in private and in public.
again this is not the same product, it just share the same film, something exposed tons of times since the first post.
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 28, 2016 11:42AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
Has been discussed several times, each one as its own point of view,
accuse me of spit in the face of paralabs is beyond belief, moreover when there are just positive words from me to them in private and in public.
again this is not the same product, it just share the same film, something exposed tons of times since the first post. [/quote]

You just don't get it and that is part and parcel of the problem. In his last post Thomas is being the gentleman he always is AND expressing his regret over doing so! He clearly would prefer that you pull this product from the market as you wrote him you are willing to do if asked. At this point, (please read his last post closely), he doesn't think you sincerely meant the offer so isn't even bothering to ask ("So, I was as modest and polite as usual - my fault! I was hoping for him to do the ethically right thing on his own without being forced. Which would have happened if his realization of the issue and his offer would have been meant seriously").

So if you WERE serious when you wrote him, ""i am very sorry if I should had ask your permission due ethical principles, if you want I stop selling magma I will" put your money where your mouth is, do the ethically right thing and pull your product off the market. Is that clear? I'm sorry if this is coming off harsh, and "spitting in the face" may have been a bit much, but your path is clear here and it is only up to you to do what is right as offered knowing how Thomas (and I'm guessing Rainer as well) feel about this issue
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 28, 2016 11:44AM)
MinSting, you don't get it!

If you would have contacted us, saying [i]"Hey, I developed a marker which works even better than yours - are you OK with me offering it?"[/i], Rainer and me would have agreed with pleasure ... if this statement would have been the truth (which we never had the chance to verify).
So in this case we would have cooperated with you with pleasure in one way or another and we would have stopped building inferior markers (IF this would have been true). After all, why should we produce something inferior if there is something better? Why should we keep our customers from a better tool (IF your statement would have been true)?

So you see, if the only improvement is actually the maker (IF it is an improvement, which is not proven yet), why not offer the marker only with our blessings?

The point is, you decided to rip off our complete product line: the foil, the marker, ... even the wallet!!! And all this based on a "better marker" (as you claim, not proven yet).

And when you approached me afterwards weeping some crocodile tears, you didn't actually regretted your unethical behaviour for real, all you wanted was a subsequent approval. But only the very moment your behaviour became public!

[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
again this is not the same product, ... [/quote]

It's not? Well, there is no genuine original creation in your offer. IF there is any "improvement" at all (not proven yet in an objective comparison) you refer to the marker. Apart from this you offer apparently a cheap plastic wallet instead of genuine leather. So your "development" is to make something cheap from our creative work which uses high quality materials. Is this your improvement? And you offer the foil in pieces ... as we do for years. Is this your "improvement"?

So what is different ... apart from magnets which may or may not be better - not proven yet.

As I said, you could have discussed the marker topic with us beforehand. You did not! You didn't requested a permission or cooperation for the customers benefits. Instead you ripped off our complete product line.

And now you try to whitewash your behaviour with implausible statements. As implausible as your "regret" was genuine and honest.
Your only interest is to sell a rip off of our creative work.

I know how someone with this behaviour is called. And you should know it as well!
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 28, 2016 11:48AM)
Thank you for your support, Bill!
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 28, 2016 11:58AM)
As always, Thomas.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 12:03PM)
This is an interesting topic.
First off, Thomas..
I doubt you will ever "lose" one customer because of this release.
PL products set the bar.
That being said, most of us take all of our tools seriously, as it should be.
I personally (obviously) want the best result possible.
Again, PL products shine here.
But, there are circumstances where close/sloppy writting may be a delaying factor.
(Delay being sometimes due to clarity. RARE though in my experience.)
So, of course it's appealing, if it promises improvements.

The obvious trade off is the thickness issue.
Along with card case quality.

I carry the Paranormal wallet as my EDC.
I can't imagine not heing able to present this card case without issue though.
(We routinely do things that don't always make sense in the universe lol.)

The biggest issues here, to me, are the "repect" issue.
And the price.

I do wish that the proper conversations were had prior to release.
I also realize that this is a business for the sellers.
Ultimately, neither PL, or MinSting, are not going to give anyone anything for free.
(Again, stating the obvious)
That's business of course.
Mercenary by deffinition.

Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with.

I'm torn when it comes to the pricing.
This tech is (imo) not as over exposed as some, due exactly to this.
I believe PL stuff prices itself out of the hands of most dabblers.
Magma does kinda drain that protective moat.
I fear seeing this on youtube.
Exposed like Steam, etc.
Mentalists have a limited tool bag.
Exposure sucks so much more because of this it seems.
But, I digress..

I LOVE PL's, just to be annoyingly clear.
But, it might be nice if them and MinSting could get past this.
Maybe compare research?

I don't suspect that will happen anytime soon though.

Whatever the take away from this post is,
Please know this Thomas: your customer base is solid.

I think all sides of this are out in the light of day.
But, after a few emails with Minsting,
I have found that...he isn't Satan.
Not even close.
Seems pretty decent actually.

Last side note;
MinSting's first language doesn't appear to be English.
All kidding aside, could that have led to mis communication early on?
(I know, I know. Just trying a feable attempt at Café Mediation lol)

252AboutToGetDraggedOverTheCoals...
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 12:14PM)
I wonder if this could have been partly avoided,
by incorporating the tech differently.
Maybe a business card stack, etc.?
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 28, 2016 12:16PM)
Thank you for your kind words. We appreciate it. But honestly, it's not about money as far as we are concerned. Those who are familiar with us and our activities know this.

So this statement [i]"Ultimately, neither PL, or MinSting, are not going to give anyone anything for free."[/i] isn't correct as far as we are concerned. Actually we give about half of our work for free. Be it money-wise, with regard to material or in work, help and support.

So as far as we are concerned, it is NOT about money. I hope this became obvious. At least, those who know us for a while can verify this.

As far as your remarks are concerned that you want the best quality - we do the same! And as I said: IF any developer comes up with a genuine improvement of any of our works, we would happily give him a GO for our customers benefits! I mean, actually we would stultify ourselves by keeping our customers away from something better!

So there would have been many ways to deal with this beforehand. But MinSting decided to go a different route. And THIS route is chosen for money-reasons - to make some cash from our creative work. And THIS is what annoys me.

Nevertheless I appreciate your mediation efforts, mate. Thank you!
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 28, 2016 12:19PM)
Call a spade a spade ... this is just the latest in a long line of magic rip-offs.

Nothing more complicated than that going on here, and the general attitude and responses in this thread confirm that the only concern now is to manipulate the situation such that he isn't held responsible for his actions.

Disgusting really, but not at all uncommon in magic.
Support Thomas and ParaLabs, and ignore those who would steal without shame.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 28, 2016 12:30PM)
This is not a Rip Off! Did anyone bought it? I did.

This guy made a search of all magnet sheets available, tested them custom made small magnets unavailable elsewhere... and you guys still say it's a rip off?

RIP OFF is this and you don't say a thing > http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S21252

Disgusting is what you are doing.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 12:30PM)
Hey Thomas,

I realized after my post, that the money comment might read wrong.
For the record, I want to be perfectly clear,
I did not intend for that to be a dig.
I was just trying to say that, these are products that aren't free.

Also, I still get giddy everytime I pop the Paranormal in my pocket.
I use it daily.
As a regular wallet, and for performing.
Nothing in sight is even a remote threat.

The established quality of PL products is not part of this this discussion imo.
This isn't remotely a compitition.

I have never read, heard, or seen, anything but class from the PL guys.
Never, not once.
Serious question, how many complaints have you heard about PL?
Probably none.
That says tons in this community.
PL has earned a fantastic reputation over years.
Much deserved.


Thomas, you have the reputation, customer base, etc., and dammit people love ya lol
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 12:42PM)
Not to beat a dead horse, but...

I feel obligated to correct a statement of mine, yet again.
About the money side of things, and PL.
They do (I've read) a ton of charity work.
They really do seem to be folks that try to make the world a better place.


252Clarity
Message: Posted by: videoman (Jun 28, 2016 12:54PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, Lseeyou wrote:
This is not a Rip Off! Did anyone bought it? I did.

This guy made a search of all magnet sheets available, tested them custom made small magnets unavailable elsewhere... and you guys still say it's a rip off?

RIP OFF is this and you don't say a thing > http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S21252

Disgusting is what you are doing. [/quote]

I don't see how any of your comments are successful in defending it is not a rip off of an existing product.
You can do all the things you mentioned and still create a rip off, in fact all of these things are commonly done. Knock off products don't just happen, it still takes some thought, research, etc. In fact, that is very likely how minsting got involved in all this. He probably intended to consult Thomas or Rainier originally but before he knew it he had too much time and money invested to risk them not giving him their blessing to release his new product. Obviously I have no idea for sure what happened but that is a common scenario when "good people" start releasing knock offs. It is not their intention but it is easy to pass a point of no return without realizing it. Then they are forced to rationalize the situation in order to justify their actions in their own minds so that they can live with doing what they know in their hearts is not the right thing to do.

But all that being said, the main point being made here is that PL was never consulted beforehand as a simple courtesy if nothing else.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 01:10PM)
I agree.
Message: Posted by: Artie Fufkin (Jun 28, 2016 01:19PM)
Knock-Off, Rip-Off, Copy ... whatever you want to call it doesn't change what it actually is.

There's really no point in these straw-man arguments and attempts at equivocation ... it's simply an effect that has been all but stolen from the original creator and marketed as a "new" product by the person who chose to steal it.

It's really not that hard to understand clearly what's going on, and it's equally not difficult at all for each person individually to decide if their personal ethics would allow them to purchase the rip-off, or would compel them to purchase the original.

Those who choose to purchase the rip-off are the very cause of the ethics issues in magic, whereas those that choose to support the original creator lend themselves to supporting other creators to keep on originating in magic, and to let those who have already released an effect of their own creation enjoy the benefits of their artistic and business acumen.

Attempts to spin this into some complex scenario whereby there are different "levels of guilt" are pointless, as theft of an idea is quite simply ... the theft of an idea.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 28, 2016 01:49PM)
Thomas If I was wrong using same film without strict previous contact I apologized several times, but I can't change the past as you can understand.
I would like to have your approval, but you don't, in fact I feel you see in magma a rivalry after the last positive review, something I never intended to be, and now rather than let me offer it, you changed your mind, you say you would not care if I had contacted you previously, but I can't change the past, neither you want change the present.
Paralabs product is not worst than mine, is just different, and its sad you feel I am an enemy.
as I never presented this product trying to undervalue other products, in fact everybody who send me a private message here, can atestify I always claimed that paralabs has better thickness penetration, never trying undervaluing your product, always positive and underlining the differences.
Also there is zero inspiration with the paranormal wallet, in fact its way more similar to "the informant" due the way I also use a sticky note, but you guys
see the yellow film and start to make it extesive to anything.
This was never intended to be a release product, just a personal research to get a good impression without using an electronic devices.
said that, I don't find ethical to paste private message in public, neither sell a ripp of product, something this is not, even if it share a portion.
Message: Posted by: Joe Atmore (Jun 28, 2016 01:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
but I can't change the past [/quote]

But you can change the future which you are apparently unwilling to do so.
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 28, 2016 01:58PM)
Joe Atmore its sad for me as there is quite lot of work invested on magma, but looks Thomas want me to stop selling it, you just had to say it by private message.
Wish granted.
Those who purchased magma will still have support for the product.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Jun 28, 2016 02:08PM)
MinSting, that is a stand up thing to do.
This has been messy, and convoluted.
I really hope all parties can move past it.

I also hope this thread is noticed by creators in the future.

Honestly though, I feel for both.
I've emailed Min a few times.
I don't get the feeling he's a quick buck guy.

Anyway, hopefully there's room for, maybe down the road, collaboration of some sort..?
Kinda doubt it, but ya never know.

I trust this community to air differences, then to get past it.
Who knows?

Kinda like being a kid watching the parents argue lol.
Message: Posted by: ParaLabs - Thomas (Jun 28, 2016 02:28PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
looks Thomas want me to stop selling it, you just had to say it by private message.[/quote]
You know, I would have loved you to make an ethical decision on your own right in the beginning.
But when you contacted me, you just wanted my approval ... or that I make a decision for you!
But that's not how life goes. You have to make up your own decisions based on what YOU think is right or wrong and not based on what I think. So, I refused to make a decision for you, right. You're an adult after all.

Honestly, I hate it to speak that bluntly in public threads as I did here. I would have loved if you would have decided to take the chance to deal with this ethically right in the beginning an take a way out head held high.

But you didn't take this route on your own until now, you couldn't ... for whatever reason.
Pity that the situation evolved in a way that we had to air dirty laundry in public.

Really a pity.


@Lseeyou: You are obviously no creator who ever released something to the public. Something that you developed over many years.
You see the efforts of MinSting ... but you ignore our efforts over the latest 10 (TEN) years on this technology and idea.
It seems to me that you have double standards here. And be assured that we have an open eye for other rip offs too.
That we don't discuss this all the time in public is another topic. And which creators have requested permissions is something that you don't know either, right?
So, your remarks expose rather yourself as being biased on the one hand and having a lack of background information on the other.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 28, 2016 02:38PM)
And even if we do a comparison, (and you did send me a photo and its no clearer in comparison to the one using my marker and the paralab kit)...

pvc wallet vs bespoke leather case
going through 2 sheets vs going through 4+
custom tip vs custom tip (both have this and PL's come in different sizes/dimensions)

i don't know how much "stuff" you get with Minsting's so can't comment...

but all of these things have already been done, discovered and released...

having the tech in different items has been done for years, its not new...

as thomas said, it would have been simple to contact them, say "have a look at this, is this different to yours? how about my handling of the wallet - what do you think?"...

to claim to not being aware of the PL team just shows a lack of awareness and lack of diligence in research...

...and not to side-track this, but it has recently happened to me too, despite them contacting me and me saying (like Thomas) "well, if you honestly think its different enough - I can't stop you releasing it, but I don't think it is"...and they almost immediately after release theirs, AND at a higher price! crazy...

if an effect used a green and red coloured pencil, doesn't mean you can release the same thing using a blue and orange one and call it new...
Message: Posted by: MinSting (Jun 28, 2016 02:43PM)
ParaLabs - Thomas
as you know my ethical moral tells me this is not a rip off, that's why I continue to sell it,
i can't move to the the past to do things the way I maybe should had, I want provide this product to the magic comunity, but I didn't lose so much time in research to get smashed with negative comments on this thread.
i tried to solve it apologizing, but nothing worked out, just remove it from the market, then that's it, removed.
I want thanks to anyone who purchased magma with zero reviews and gave me their trust.
Message: Posted by: Lseeyou (Jun 28, 2016 04:04PM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, ParaLabs - Thomas wrote:
@Lseeyou: You are obviously no creator who ever released something to the public. Something that you developed over many years.
You see the efforts of MinSting ... but you ignore our efforts over the latest 10 (TEN) years on this technology and idea.
It seems to me that you have double standards here. And be assured that we have an open eye for other rip offs too.
That we don't discuss this all the time in public is another topic. And which creators have requested permissions is something that you don't know either, right?
So, your remarks expose rather yourself as being biased on the one hand and having a lack of background information on the other. [/quote]

You obviously think you know too much * my 1st creative juice was shown first in 2000 at FISM and it's well documented and released.

Have a great day sir.
Message: Posted by: Wayne Liew (Jul 1, 2016 12:22AM)
[quote]On Jun 28, 2016, ParaLabs - Thomas wrote:

So as far as we are concerned, it is NOT about money. I hope this became obvious. At least, those who know us for a while can verify this. [/quote]

I can vouch for this statement. I may not know Thomas and Rainer for long enough, and perhaps fairly new in this Café, but I'm one of their satisfied customers. They taken care of every detail of my order to ensure I can have the best quality props to perform, which they don't need to but they still do.
Message: Posted by: Dreda (Jul 7, 2016 04:01PM)
Personnaly, I like when I see credits...

For exemple, paralabs or Word in Thousand By Al Baker (application on a book).