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Topic: ESP cards for readings ?
Message: Posted by: Godzilla (Jun 29, 2016 09:08PM)
I just watched a (2000) movie 'The Gift'.
The Psychic used ESP cards laid out in spreads for readings.
She, did not use Tarot.

My question ... Do any of the members here use ESP cards for readings ?

Thanks,
Gary
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Jun 29, 2016 09:26PM)
Http://www.deceptionary.com/zenermancy.html
Message: Posted by: Ben Blau (Jun 29, 2016 10:07PM)
Personally, I've never understood the use of Zener cards for readings. They were not devised for divination purposes.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Jun 30, 2016 08:52AM)
Personally, I don't, but I did come up with a method where I assigned a separate meaning to each combination of three cards (no matter what order they appeared in). You would interpret each row and then each column.

However, if you really wanted to use Zener cards for readings, I would recommend getting a deck that had each symbol represented in one of five different colors, making 25 different cards, which would be sufficient for an oracle (and would be fairly easy to memorize the assigned meanings of). You could correspond each symbol to its numerological equivalent, and each color to an elemental meaning.

In the movie, it is clear that the main character simply uses the cards as a prop, and instead performs straight cold-reading (with occasional true psychic insight).
Message: Posted by: Amirá (Jun 30, 2016 09:21AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2016, Ben Blau wrote:
Personally, I've never understood the use of Zener cards for readings. They were not devised for divination purposes. [/quote]

Tarot neither according some theories ;) , still is one of the most popular oracles.
At the end anything can be interpreted as reading tool. I have done readings using ESP symbols and the work of Webster, Knepper and Dyment are good sources of information and inspiration.


Best
Message: Posted by: Dr Art (Jun 30, 2016 10:13AM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2016, Godzilla wrote:
I just watched a (2000) movie 'The Gift'.
The Psychic used ESP cards laid out in spreads for readings.
She, did not use Tarot.

My question ... Do any of the members here use ESP cards for readings ?

Thanks,
Gary [/quote]

You might be interested in this thread about using ESP cards for readings. Apparently the ESP symbols have actual cross cultural similar meanings that can be interpreted as "states of mind". So giving readings based on these symbol choices is triggered by the mental state of the sitter based on different reading topics. Doug Dyment wrote a book on this topic (Zenomancy) and the thread references an anthropologist that wrote a book on the cross cultural meanings of ESP cards.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=617882&forum=15
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (Jun 30, 2016 10:52AM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2016, Amirá wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2016, Ben Blau wrote:
Personally, I've never understood the use of Zener cards for readings. They were not devised for divination purposes. [/quote]

Tarot neither according some theories ;) , still is one of the most popular oracles.
At the end anything can be interpreted as reading tool. I have done readings using ESP symbols and the work of Webster, Knepper and Dyment are good sources of information and inspiration.


Best [/quote]


A short list of things not devised for readings...

Numbers
Chicken bones
Tea leaves
Your birthday
Planetary alignment
The palm of your hand

Once you understand readings, you will understand how anything may be used.
Message: Posted by: David Thiel (Jun 30, 2016 01:53PM)
I have used them. The corporate market is pretty sensitive about tarot.

In my interpretation:

* The Circle represents family/harmony
* The Plus Sign represents ambition/drive
* The Wavy Lines represent travel/adventure
* The Square represents business/accomplishment
* The Star represents creativity/imagination

I only ever use the ParaLabs cards. They are m***** in an ingenious method that they can be seen in any light. They can be detected with a pendulum...the subject can choose one face up or face down...they can be used as a Past/Present/Future spread...they can be !@#$** on the volunteer. There are endless possibilities.

David
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 30, 2016 02:03PM)
I've never used them for readings, for the scientific side of them jars with the context of a reading (for me)...
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Jun 30, 2016 03:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2016, IAIN wrote:
I've never used them for readings, for the scientific side of them jars with the context of a reading (for me)... [/quote]

Exactly my reaction as well. And I can understand how others might feel differently and use them effectively.
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 30, 2016 04:11PM)
The reason I am intrigued by esp readings is that they are in the family of numerology and cartomancy. So once you learn about numbers you can do entertaining readings with esp cards regular cards or number cards. So by learning about numbers you can apply it to many various props.

Then by adding colors to the esp cards (playing cards already have colors) you have even more to work with.

I might suggest you begin with Alan Strydom's nice little tome on An Intuitive method for readings with Zener ESP cards.

You could refer to it as the Trinity Reading System. ;)

Don't.... don't.... don't stop. You can thank me later!
J
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jun 30, 2016 04:17PM)
Nah...i'll leave it thanks...doesn't work for me... :)
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jun 30, 2016 05:40PM)
The Zenner cards are best for ESP testing--maybe personality testing, but shapes in general might be good be good for personality reading or readings in general.


Circles are eternity, spirit, art, emotion, relationships ?
Triangles are mind, reason, science, logic, ideals ???
Squares are physical, body, balance, work, real world ????
Message: Posted by: Godzilla (Jun 30, 2016 07:07PM)
Thanks, for replies Gents ! :-)

I, was curious to see how many here use the ESP cards for readings...

~G
Message: Posted by: John C (Jun 30, 2016 09:23PM)
I'm glad we are not all the same.
Message: Posted by: Godzilla (Jun 30, 2016 09:32PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2016, John C wrote:
I'm glad we are not all the same. [/quote]

Me too ! :-)

Hey, John you mentioned colors. I use the color concept with A-Z. :-)
I, do not claim to be a reader! lol
Message: Posted by: Alan Wheeler (Jul 1, 2016 08:26PM)
[url=http://colourtest.ue-foundation.org/kolory/kolor-index2.php]Luscher Color Test[/url]

[url=http://numerologycalculator.org/numerology-meanings-chart.html]Numerology Calculation[/url]

[url=http://www.shapetest.com/]Shape AND Colors[/url]
Message: Posted by: mindmagic (Jul 2, 2016 03:06AM)
As others have said, the ESP symbols were designed for scientific testing and they were deliberately chosen to be emotionally neutral. It doesn't make much sense to me to use them for readings.

Barry
Message: Posted by: Robb (Jul 2, 2016 10:48AM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2016, Amirá wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2016, Ben Blau wrote:
Personally, I've never understood the use of Zener cards for readings. They were not devised for divination purposes. [/quote]

Tarot neither according some theories ;) , still is one of the most popular oracles.
At the end anything can be interpreted as reading tool. I have done readings using ESP symbols and the work of Webster, Knepper and Dyment are good sources of information and inspiration.


Best [/quote]

Agree with Pablo on this. It doesn't matter what a set of cards were designed for, it matters that you can use the symbolism in a meaningful way. The shapes of Zener cards certainly lend themselves to some very direct symbolism:

Circle: Unity, completeness, resolution, wheel of existence, etc.
Cross: Decisions, conflict, polarity, etc.
Wavy Lines: Energy, inspiration, movement, change. Etc.
Square: Rigidity, order, logic, etc.
Star: Success, achievement, good fortune, etc.

And I came up with these as I typed!
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 2, 2016 11:17AM)
Each to their own...and yes, you can read just about anything...doesnt mean you should though :)

In my opinion...do your own thing...
Message: Posted by: Robb (Jul 2, 2016 11:24AM)
Well, I wouldn't say that they are the BEST for readings but just agreeing that they *could* be used... Personally I'll stick to Tarot and palmistry...
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 2, 2016 05:12PM)
We, some of us,talk about adding a little reading to our effects. My suggestion is simply to add a little reading to a routine using esp cards. Not a full fledged sit down reading of minutes. But a simple reading you'd do similiar if you were using colors.

Just my opinion. And we all know what those are like.
Message: Posted by: Dr Spektor (Jul 3, 2016 08:21AM)
Read buata by Scott grossberg
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (Jul 3, 2016 12:48PM)
Agree with Bauta.

I put out a reading system titled The Lens. It started directly from the Signs of Life book but evolved into something different. I have done a few thousand readings with the system. The Lens actually refers to the opening dialog I use to frame what is about to happen. I came up with it back when I worked with lots engineers to save the long discussion that ensued after a reading. You can find The Lens here:

http://deepersecrets.com/the-lens-workshop/
Message: Posted by: bofx (Jul 4, 2016 06:46AM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2016, Godzilla wrote:
I, was curious to see how many here use the ESP cards for readings...[/quote]
I love the ESP symbols and I use them regularly not to predict the future but to explain the choices previously made by a spectator and thus, lead to a kind of personality analysis.
I have share my thoughts and method [url=http://douceursmentales.free.fr/?page_id=206]here[/url]
Message: Posted by: innermind (Jul 23, 2016 07:50PM)
Some folks have mentioned utilizing a colored ESP symbol deck.

If you wish to incorporate color to your ESP card readings, you don't need to use a deck with colored symbols. Instead, just get some white stickers:

[img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DVWwSYpqL._SX300_.jpg[/img]

Next, color-in those white stickers with various markers/pens of your chosen colors. Then simply stick them onto your ESP cards. Two stickers per card is fine (one sticker per each lengthwise end of a card.... or in diagonal corners ala playing card indexes). Or if you prefer, you may even use smaller stickers and use four per card (one in each corner).


This method will allow you to utilize more colors because purchasing pre-colored stickers generally limits you to only 4 or 5 colors, whereas coloring your own white stickers with pens/markers will allow you to have a much greater choice of colors.


So.... suppose you decide to use 10 colors to correspond with a particular numerology/color reading system with which you might already be familiar. Combined with the five ESP symbols, you would now have a 50 card deck. This can be done inexpensively with a couple packs of Royal ESP cards which generally sell for $4 to $6 per deck of 25 cards (bonus: Royal ESP cards are marked too).




:rainbow:
Message: Posted by: John C (Jul 25, 2016 08:31AM)
[quote]On Jul 2, 2016, mindmagic wrote:
As others have said, the ESP symbols were designed for scientific testing and they were deliberately chosen to be emotionally neutral. It doesn't make much sense to me to use them for readings.

Barry [/quote]

Not directed at Barry.....

To whom does it not make sense to use various things for readings. To us or to the audience.

I don't believe the audience cares or thinks of such things. When they see a guy on a card with a bunch of swords do they instantly recognize this as a valid reading device?

I think it's up to the performer to make such things valid if they have the ability.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 25, 2016 08:40AM)
I think that really, personally speaking, there are a million and one better things to use other than esp cards for readings... And no, I don't have a list of those million things...😊

Each to their own for sure...if you're going to give a reading based on shapes though, why not just do a drawing analysis? Its more personal, doesn't come with any scientific backbone and is fun and freeform...

Go to an art gallery, fins three pieces that move you then think about why...then repeat...
Message: Posted by: Ray Bertrand (Jul 25, 2016 03:01PM)
[quote]On Jul 25, 2016, IAIN wrote:
I think that really, personally speaking, there are a million and one better things to use other than esp cards for readings... And no, I don't have a list of those million things...😊

Each to their own for sure...if you're going to give a reading based on shapes though, why not just do a drawing analysis? Its more personal, doesn't come with any scientific backbone and is fun and freeform...

Go to an art gallery, fins three pieces that move you then think about why...then repeat... [/quote]

You now have me thinking of Salvador Dali, Picasso and Monet. Melting Clocks, Square breasts and Fuzzy Artwork. Just kidding, These artists were very talented.

Ray
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Jul 25, 2016 03:19PM)
I won't say what I would read into that :) :wow: :bg:
Message: Posted by: ddyment (Aug 5, 2016 01:20PM)
John C wrote:[quote]I'm glad we are not all the same. [/quote]
Exactly. And this leads to one of the other great advantages of Zener cards for those who want to make a business of reading: they are not "done to death". You will find yourself much more in demand at places like psychic fairs, where everyone else is doing the same old thing.

This, of course, presupposes that they are used in such a way as to provide a depth of readings appropriate for professional work. The late (and much missed) reader John Wells once wrote that, "The readings possible with a given 'system' are only as effective as the capacity of that system to interact through its symbols with real life. Life is complex; the oracle must be also." The approach of ascribing simple basic meanings to each symbol (and some people do this completely arbitrarily, with no understanding of the anthropological value of symbols) may work for quickie readings, but will very soon run out of steam when applied to serious work.

I like Zener symbols for readings because they carry an interesting "scientific" cachet (which for me is a positive attribute, unlike that suggested by an earlier poster; for my audiences, I want to distance myself from the occult), embody an anthropologically rich set of symbology, and can be framed in the context of a divinatory system that is steeped in both complexity and historical accuracy (dating back thousands of years).

Reading [url=http://www.deceptionary.com/zenermancy.html#testimonials] what others have written about [i]Zenermancy[/i][/url] will yield some perspectives on what a properly worked-out system for Zener card readings can provide.
Message: Posted by: John C (Aug 7, 2016 07:38PM)
Sold Doug. Make sure you sign my copy as you do your other books I purchased.

J
Message: Posted by: John C (Aug 9, 2016 08:38PM)
[quote]On Jul 23, 2016, innermind wrote:
Some folks have mentioned utilizing a colored ESP symbol deck.

If you wish to incorporate color to your ESP card readings, you don't need to use a deck with colored symbols. Instead, just get some white stickers:

[img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DVWwSYpqL._SX300_.jpg[/img]

Next, color-in those white stickers with various markers/pens of your chosen colors. Then simply stick them onto your ESP cards. Two stickers per card is fine (one sticker per each lengthwise end of a card.... or in diagonal corners ala playing card indexes). Or if you prefer, you may even use smaller stickers and use four per card (one in each corner).


This method will allow you to utilize more colors because purchasing pre-colored stickers generally limits you to only 4 or 5 colors, whereas coloring your own white stickers with pens/markers will allow you to have a much greater choice of colors.


So.... suppose you decide to use 10 colors to correspond with a particular numerology/color reading system with which you might already be familiar. Combined with the five ESP symbols, you would now have a 50 card deck. This can be done inexpensively with a couple packs of Royal ESP cards which generally sell for $4 to $6 per deck of 25 cards (bonus: Royal ESP cards are marked too).




:rainbow: [/quote]

How about creating an esp card with a heart, diamond, spade, and club. So now you have the symbol, the color (red or black) and the suit as in cartomancy. You would need four cards of each or 20 esp cards. Shuffle them up and deal one then two etc.

I like it!

J
Message: Posted by: ddyment (Aug 10, 2016 12:02AM)
The [i]Zenermancy[/i] system includes a chapter on incorporating coloured symbols (the book's table of contents can be viewed [url=http://www.deceptionary.com/zenermancy.html]here[/url]), though I, frankly, do not personally use this aspect, as I find there to be more than enough content without it to do full-length readings.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Aug 10, 2016 02:07AM)
So, out of genuine curiosity...

Often, when we introduce esp cards we talk about Rhine, Duke uni and maybe even Ghostbusters...

A scientific edge as it were...how do you then shift into a reading? And how do you shift from using them as a semi-scientific, test condition like presentation into a reading?
Message: Posted by: Marc O (Aug 10, 2016 06:53AM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2016, IAIN wrote:
So, out of genuine curiosity...

Often, when we introduce esp cards we talk about Rhine, Duke uni and maybe even Ghostbusters...

A scientific edge as it were...how do you then shift into a reading? And how do you shift from using them as a semi-scientific, test condition like presentation into a reading? [/quote]

I think Doug gives a good explanation for that (on his site):

"they carry an interesting “scientific” cachet, embody an anthropologically rich set of symbology, and can be framed in the context of a divinatory system that is steeped in both complexity and historical accuracy (dating back thousands of years). "

David gives a good reason for using for instance Zenner cards for a reading instead of Tarot cards by saying that the corporate market is sensitive about Tarot readings.

Personally I like the participant to draw me a tree to get personal information about them but using Zenner cards (given that the cards are handled face up by the participant) is also a nice modern way to get information from the participant who are not charmed by Tarot cards.

For me any reading system that is handled by the spectator themself with their own conscious choices has my preference above for instance Tarot cards that are mostly handled facedown by the reader themself.
By letting the participant handle the reading system themself you can always fall back on their own choices instead of saying something like "the Tarot cards / stars / your palm tells me.....).
Message: Posted by: John C (Aug 10, 2016 07:21AM)
I don't have much "reading" experience short of adding a little bit to colors and numbers. So for me to "shift" into reading is no problem. I just say, hey look at this.

For the more experienced solid readers it may be a concern.
Message: Posted by: ddyment (Aug 10, 2016 10:09AM)
Should I wish to shift a moment from (say) a demonstration to a reading, I casually comment on the significance (the anthropological interpretation) of the symbol(s) that the participant has chosen.

Incidentally, and whether or not one chooses to make mention of the origin of Zener symbol cards, I believe that it's important to get things right (because a surprising number of people know about this stuff, and you don't want to come across as uninformed). So be aware that Karl Zener spelled his name with a single "N", and pronounced it "ZEE-ner", not "ZEN-er".
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Aug 10, 2016 11:48AM)
In support of Doug's argument:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=377603&forum=15
Message: Posted by: ALEXANDRE (Feb 27, 2020 09:25PM)
This, by my good friend Chris Gould of Alchemy Moon, may be of interest ...

https://www.geminiartifacts.com/collections/alchemy-moon/products/artifactum
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Feb 27, 2020 11:03PM)
[quote]On Aug 10, 2016, ddyment wrote:
...I believe that it's important to get things right (because a surprising number of people know about this stuff, and you don't want to come across as uninformed). So be aware that Karl Zener spelled his name with a single "N", and pronounced it "ZEE-ner", not "ZEN-er". [/quote]

I have this thought literally every time I hear an American (try to) pronounce Vincent Van Gogh (it’s not “van go”).

I hear everyone doing internet searches all the way over here lol
Message: Posted by: ALEXANDRE (Mar 4, 2020 10:21PM)
[quote]On Aug 5, 2016, ddyment wrote:
John C wrote:[quote]I'm glad we are not all the same. [/quote]
Exactly. And this leads to one of the other great advantages of Zener cards for those who want to make a business of reading: they are not "done to death". You will find yourself much more in demand at places like psychic fairs, where everyone else is doing the same old thing.

This, of course, presupposes that they are used in such a way as to provide a depth of readings appropriate for professional work. The late (and much missed) reader John Wells once wrote that, "The readings possible with a given 'system' are only as effective as the capacity of that system to interact through its symbols with real life. Life is complex; the oracle must be also." The approach of ascribing simple basic meanings to each symbol (and some people do this completely arbitrarily, with no understanding of the anthropological value of symbols) may work for quickie readings, but will very soon run out of steam when applied to serious work.

I like Zener symbols for readings because they carry an interesting "scientific" cachet (which for me is a positive attribute, unlike that suggested by an earlier poster; for my audiences, I want to distance myself from the occult), embody an anthropologically rich set of symbology, and can be framed in the context of a divinatory system that is steeped in both complexity and historical accuracy (dating back thousands of years).

Reading [url=http://www.deceptionary.com/zenermancy.html#testimonials] what others have written about [i]Zenermancy[/i][/url] will yield some perspectives on what a properly worked-out system for Zener card readings can provide. [/quote]

I ordered this book because Doug does great work, it comes highly recommended, and I like to study different forms of readings. In my area I'm the only one doing professional readings with the Lenormand (which I've done for a long while, I even teach the stuff). I also use the Tarot, Astragalomancy (click signature), Pai Gow Tiles (tic sheet in signature) and geez, I've even used tomatoes in a basket as a reading oracle (long story, not for sale :), so ESP cards seem perfectly fine to me.

I use ESP cards regularly in my psychic entertainment work anyway, I have an entire talk on ESP, so adding a proper reading system with these cards is something I'm looking forward to.

I don't necessarily want to distance myself from the occult, I think it's fun, and neither do I see anything wrong with a system carrying a "scientific" cachet. Besides, the truth is you can spin it however you want, what matters (specially to the sitter) is the message.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, Doug.