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Topic: Coaching
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 18, 2017 11:02AM)
How many of you have pursued personal coaching? Last fall I decided it was time for me to do so and I am very glad I did. I took Mindpro up on his introductory offer and then rolled into a yearly contract. Speaking to Mindpro on a routine basis on ways to grow my business keeps me focused and directed. Last week I was in Las Vegas and Mindpro was kind enough to make time in his schedule to meet with me in person! When my brother and I first joined in the conversations here - nearly six years ago, the thought that we would have evolved so far never crossed our minds. Looking back, it seems crazy.

I am thankful that so many here share advice and people like Mindpro offer products and services at affordable prices. It opens up possibilities I could never explore on my own. Mindpro has such a broad range of business and life experiences to share. Speaking with him allows me to consider avenues to grow my business well outside my current reality.

Being that not many here refer to coaches or coaching advice they have received, it makes me think not many have hired coaches. I wonder what everyone's thoughts are on the topic of utilizing coaching to advance ones business?
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 18, 2017 02:02PM)
Caféheckers,

Congratulations on your success. If I actually knew who Mindpro is, could verify his accomplishments, and knew what he offers, I might have an interest in his program. Nonetheless I'm glad you've received value for your time, money, and effort.

I think personal coaching is one of the most valuable things one can do to accelerate success. Last year alone I invested in two coaching programs. The value I received was far greater than my monetary investment, and that investment was sizable. Although I've been running a successful magic business for over 20 years, my business looks very different from the way it looked 2 short years ago. By design, I'm doing fewer gigs this year, but earning much more that I ever have before. In large part it's because of the coaching I've received, the accountability to my coach, and the actions that I took.

This year I plan on investing on two different coaching programs. One for my magic business and one for my speaking business. Once again these investments will be sizable, not only in money, but in time. I feel confident that the value I'll receive will far outweigh my initial investment. Time will tell. I've promoted the coaching programs of others from whom I've received value, and will continue to do so in the future.

As a coach myself, I've coached others on their magic businesses. I've seen my students go from struggling to making a six-figure income in a few short years. Last year was the first time I offered a formal, long-term, personal coaching program. It was a one-year commitment, and the growth I saw was amazing and gratifying. In another month or so, I'll be promoting that coaching program to others. It will be a sizable investment, but compared to the value I believe my students will receive, the coaching will be priceless.

Personal coaching is no-brainer decision for me, but one must do their research to make sure their coach not only talks the talk but walks the walk. There are too many people in this world who teach theory. They teach things they've learned from others, but haven't done themselves. It's the whole fake it till you make it philosophy.

One thing I take into consideration when investing in a coach is I make sure my coach has similar values as I do. For instance, I'm a huge believer in treating others with respect, and I wouldn't want to support the work of someone who is disrespectful or condescending to others. A coach will impact one's mindset positively or negatively. It's important to do one's homework before investing one's time, money, and effort to ensure you select the right coach who will expand your mind, business, and income.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 18, 2017 03:17PM)
Here's a thought.... rather than paying one lump sum to a personal coach over a year, you could potentially spread that out and have multiple "personal consultations" that would cover a range of topics and views.

It depends on where you are in your business and where you want to end up as well. If having a single coach guide you step by step as you build your business is something that will help you.. great. I can see that being a huge help to a lot of people.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 18, 2017 04:33PM)
Not to offend Mindpro, or Lou certainly, but I have never been a fan of the process.

It helps some to focus, and to motivate them and to look at their business in a way they might not normally look at it from. I get that, and as Thomas says if it works for you great.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 18, 2017 08:44PM)
[quote]On Mar 18, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
Congratulations on your success. If I actually knew who Mindpro is, could verify his accomplishments, and knew what he offers, I might have an interest in his program. Nonetheless I'm glad you've received value for your time, money, and effort.[/quote]
Thanks Lou. Based upon Mindpro's numerous and extensive posts here as well as the products of his I own, I was very comfortable hiring him as a coach. My initial concern was time. I am a full time college student as well as running my business. I was concerned that working with a coach would overwhelm me. I am happy to say that thus far, it has worked out extremely well. Your point about the investment being more than just money is a great one.

[quote]
I think personal coaching is one of the most valuable things one can do to accelerate success. Last year alone I invested in two coaching programs. The value I received was far greater than my monetary investment, and that investment was sizable. Although I've been running a successful magic business for over 20 years, my business looks very different from the way it looked 2 short years ago. By design, I'm doing fewer gigs this year, but earning much more that I ever have before. In large part it's because of the coaching I've received, the accountability to my coach, and the actions that I took. [/quote]

Great points here. I hope I am in a similiar situation, where 2 years from now I can look back with such progress.

[quote]
As a coach myself, I've coached others on their magic businesses. I've seen my students go from struggling to making a six-figure income in a few short years. Last year was the first time I offered a formal, long-term, personal coaching program. It was a one-year commitment, and the growth I saw was amazing and gratifying. In another month or so, I'll be promoting that coaching program to others. It will be a sizable investment, but compared to the value I believe my students will receive, the coaching will be priceless.
[/quote]
Good luck - let us know when it becomes availalable and a bit more about it.

[quote]
Personal coaching is no-brainer decision for me, but one must do their research to make sure their coach not only talks the talk but walks the walk. There are too many people in this world who teach theory. They teach things they've learned from others, but haven't done themselves. It's the whole fake it till you make it philosophy.

One thing I take into consideration when investing in a coach is I make sure my coach has similar values as I do. For instance, I'm a huge believer in treating others with respect, and I wouldn't want to support the work of someone who is disrespectful or condescending to others. A coach will impact one's mindset positively or negatively. It's important to do one's homework before investing one's time, money, and effort to ensure you select the right coach who will expand your mind, business, and income. [/quote]

To me, here is where it gets a bit tricky. I chose Mindpro not because he has already done what I intend to do, but rather because I believe he has the broad experience and skill sets to advise me on better and more detailed ways to get there. Taking advice from others who have accomplished what you are trying to achieve has its own pitfalls. They likely have done it at another time and place than you are planning on doing it. Furthermore, they are doing it with their own personal skill sets, interests and ambitions. If these do not match up to your own, your results will not be the same.

I believe your coach should expand your mind above all. I agree with that.

thomasR- I agree, it depends where in the process you are. For me, I need consistancy as I am looking for an advisor more than anything. I am not sure how Mindpro works with others, but for me it is not a step by step process we follow, but more of discussions on every aspect of my business - both long and short term. I have not worked with other coaches, so I do not know how it compares to other styles or arrangements.

Danny- the need/desire for a coach may depend on one's personal experiences and environment. I did not grow up in a family of entertainers, nor are entertainers in my circle of friends - so for me, it made perfect sense to gain insights from someone who has done so for years and also ran such agencies.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 19, 2017 08:28PM)
So I'll ask this.. why do you feel like you need a coach? where do you want to be in 1 years time that you don't think you can reach without a coach?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 19, 2017 08:31PM)
[quote]On Mar 19, 2017, thomasR wrote:
So I'll ask this.. why do you feel like you need a coach? where do you want to be in 1 years time that you don't think you can reach without a coach? [/quote]

This is always my question with the process.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 19, 2017 09:52PM)
I'm a huge fan of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), and the UFC in particular. Every fighter and certainly every champion has a coach. Actually they all have several coaches helping them in each facet of martial arts. Most of the fighters either wants to be a champion or they want to hold on to their championship status.

I'm not a fan of golfing, but I do know who is the most successful golfer of all time. Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods has a coach. Why would he need a coach? Only Tiger Woods can answer that question.

One of my goals is to create a 7-figure yearly income. My coaches are helping me get there. I certainly don't expect that to happen in one year's time, but every year I get a little bit closer to my goal.

One thing that I've noticed in all my years in business is that the most successful people I know all have coaches. The ones who don't haven't created anywhere near the success I'm striving for. I often teach that one of the quickest ways to achieve success is to emulate the actions of those who've achieved the success you seek. I first learned that concept as a child, and later learned the concept through Tony Robbins.

The right coach can offer insight from an objective space, the right coach will hold you accountable, and the right coach will inspire to you achieve much more than you initially thought possible.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 06:00AM)
There is a huge difference in sports and business. Many if not most do well in business without coaches.

In my experience almost none of the successful people I have come across have had coaches. They are self motivated, self starters.

It comes from within you to be a success. Coaching is not some magic bullet.

Hey if it works for you and you need it then great you found a method. But the sports comparison is apples and oranges. Every successful doctor I know went to college. So what? Do you have to go to college to be a success? Of course not.

Inspiration comes from within. Don't rely on others for it.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 20, 2017 10:16AM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
There is a huge difference in sports and business. Many if not most do well in business without coaches. [/quote]
I disagree with this. Most people in business fail. Most businesses fail. This is especially true of business having to do with art and entertainment.
[quote]
In my experience almost none of the successful people I have come across have had coaches. They are self motivated, self starters. [/quote]
I agree with this, but that does not mean that adding a coach to the mix does not increase ones chance of success.
[quote]
It comes from within you to be a success. Coaching is not some magic bullet. [/quote]
Very true!
[quote
Hey if it works for you and you need it then great you found a method. But the sports comparison is apples and oranges. Every successful doctor I know went to college. So what? Do you have to go to college to be a success? Of course not.

Inspiration comes from within. Don't rely on others for it. [/quote]
Going to college increases ones chance of success. That is why many industries seek those who have attained a college degree. It makes their talent pool smaller when hiring, but statistically they have found it to be a predictor of success.

I disagree a bit about some of what Lou shared. Great coaches have not always attained great personal success in that which they coach. They are great because they are knowledgeable about the factors that will result in success and can identify the strengths in others that can be leveraged better as well as weaknesses that must be corrected or at least acknowledged in strategic planning.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 20, 2017 10:16AM)
Tiger Woods has a golf coach... That's like a magician hiring a sleight of hand coach.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 20, 2017 12:17PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, charliecheckers wrote:

I disagree a bit about some of what Lou shared. Great coaches have not always attained great personal success in that which they coach. They are great because they are knowledgeable about the factors that will result in success and can identify the strengths in others that can be leveraged better as well as weaknesses that must be corrected or at least acknowledged in strategic planning. [/quote]

If this is where you say we're in disagreement, then I don't think we disagree at all. It's impossible to know all my thoughts on the subject by reading a few short paragraphs.

Wishing you much success!

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 20, 2017 12:19PM)
Wow, some varying perspectives here as usual. The reality is many seek a coach or mentor for many and multiple reasons. While every single person I've worked with over the last 30 years of coaching, consulting, training and mentoring have each had their personal and individual reasons and purposes for seeking assistance (I do personal coaching not pre-specified general curriculum), it could also be said that they all are also seeking assistance in "entertainment business" generally.

Also one of the great benefits of a professional coach is creating a structure, system and perspective that often has not been obtainable on their own. Many times someone may think they need one thing where in reality they actually need something else (almost always) or several others things. When I hear someone say "I need to get more bookings" or "I need better marketing," I can almost immediately identify that as another or additional issues are the true reality. It is rare, if not impossible for someone to be doing everything right or possible and still not yield the results they are seeking. So often it is first properly identifying and diagnosing the true issue or area of concern, then creating the steps to address it.

"Coaching" also allows more direct, personal learning in your specific areas of interest exactly as it pertains to your business in your specific area in the specific markets you serve, are serving or will serve. No book, course or program that I have ever seen, offers anything even remotely close to this. It allows a more quicker, more direct and focused path for the individual. It greatly shortens and reduces the learning and implementation curve. Results can easily be measurable, unlike many books or courses. You have a personal coach to answer questions, analyze and identify progress, things you are doing right as well as those things you are doing wrong or could do better or differently, that would take you years to learn and experience on your own. That's another part, which is you are benefiting from the coach's experience, which can prevent you from many, many setbacks, loss of time, money and effort, as well as get an insight you simply can't or won't get on your own.

There are soooo many things that I see everyday. The first being someone thinking their show is perceived or accepted one way, when in reality it may be completely opposite. Performers that listen to and believe what a handful of others tell them or offer praise after a show, which may be in stark contrast to the reality. Coaching allows for an honest insight and understanding that I have yet see offered or possible by any other means.

These are just a few reasons that are only the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more, not to mention specifics to each discipline of entertainer and their specific visions and desires. Many performers have skipped the so important creation of the foudational level, which makes almost everythig they have done based on this wonky at best if not completely responsible for many of their issues and problems.

Also, personally speaking, I know the reason I have done well is that I don't have a specified course from which I coach, and I am not coaching based only on my personal experience, but rather from an industry perspective and position. This is the most valuable element, which again, I have not seen offered and only a certain amount of performers truly understand this importance and difference.

It's sad that after years of participation here on so many topics, some people like Lou would even question my background, experience and credentials. I have never understood this. Do you think I have made up such detailed and specific content almost daily for years? It would literally be impossible to speak as specifically and detailed as I do about so many related topics on a professional levels without such experience. Now I do understand, as when I was invited to join here, that I was at the the time, and may still be the only one here with professional experience in all eight areas of professional entertainment, allowing me to operate and contribute from the industry perspective rather than personal perspectives as most others do. Still, I find it quite amazing, and it is often one of the first things those that work with me discover almost immediately. Those that come to my live events, trainings and seminars see of of this as well. It's addressed in many of the over 30 professional resources I've released, including the five I have made available to this community over the last two years.

It is a personal choice, and truth be told all coaches are not created equally. The vast majority should not be coaches (and are NOT truly coaches), as they are only "coaching" their own perspectives and beliefs or perhaps what they feel has worked well for them. This is not one size fits all. A coach is also invested in the daily efforts, progress and success of each student. This is why having a six, eight or ten week course can't simply fit the bill for many performers. Sure some will pay to see the "coaches" opinions and hope to pick up a few nuggets, but many in retrospect also claim they wouldn't do it again based on what they now know. Now I'm not referring to Lou or anyone specific here, just making an overall statement from those that I have researched and from my many students that have purchased from these other "coaches" and gurus have said consistently. Again, this is my business so I know who offers what, how they work and who is offering the goods and who is just selling an over-hyped info-product (that too should be great cause for concern, but is its own topic entirely).

Coaching should be based on knowledge and experience. No, not every coach should be expected to have mastered specific disciplines. It is not necessary to do so to obtain the knowledge required to assist and help others as long as there is a complete understanding and experience. I am not a kids magician, yet I would venture to say I have may have booked more kids magicians shows than likely any other kids magician on here with only a few possible exceptions. Did I perform all of these events myself? No. But that's not what I'm teaching/coaching. I'm teaching the business behind being (in this example) a kids performer, of which yes, I have vast experience from my agencies. So if you went only from the perspective of "is he a master kids magician performer?" You would falsely be setting yourself up to believe "no" and thereby false convince yourself that I could not be of assistance to you. Again, false perceptions of many performers. Yet to those kids performers that have taken my coaching will easily and quickly tell you, they have learned more from me and my coaching, often much that has never been shared or found before, usually in a very short period of time. The only difference is I offer this information on my terms, in the proper step by step sequential order, only once the proper foundation is in place for it to operate properly, efficiently and most effectively as desired.

Yes, along the way, throughout the process, I teach my system or parts thereof, which also separates my offering from all others and creates the results desired. One must commit to the process to achieve their desired outcome and results. I only accept about 15-20% of those that apply for my coaching and there is an extensive application for those interested. You see, when I accept a student or consulting client, my name becomes attached to their success. What I teach is the art and science of live entertainment business. Trust me, no one is going to be affiliated with me I do not wish to work with or do not feel I can help or offer benefits and results. This is also why I offered the 30 day coaching deal last fall to allow those interested a better understanding of what coaching is and how it can be beneficial to them and their performing business.

Many haven't sought coaching because they don't understand it, have a wrong perception, aren't honest with themselves or aren't willing to commit to the process (no, it doesn't work itself, no such thing as "self-working" business or "putting your business on auto-pilot" as gurus try to sell you. It is not for everyone. However, once properly understood, coaching, consulting, training and mentoring can be the most beneficial and valuable tool in your business toolbelt. Also for many, it improves the level, quality and professionalism of their show/performance too as a byproduct result.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 20, 2017 01:01PM)
Mindpro,

I agree with everything you just said.

As for my comment questioning your background, credentials, experience, etc., I still don't know who you are, so don't take it personally, but I never make a significant investment in anything or anyone without first doing my homework. If others know who you are and are receiving value from your offerings, then I'm happy for them and you, and I wish you and your clients continued success!

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 20, 2017 01:04PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
If this is where you say we're in disagreement, then I don't think we disagree at all. It's impossible to know all my thoughts on the subject by reading a few short paragraphs.

Wishing you much success!

Lou Serrano [/quote]

I stand corrected. I apologize for misinterpreting what you wrote.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 20, 2017 02:14PM)
I encouraged my brother to seek Mindpro's services for many of the reasons Mindpro described above. My initial thought was that he do so upon graduation. I was not sure at that time if he was ready for a coach, let alone one with such high expectations of his students. It was my brothers decision to seek coaching last fall, while still only a sophomore in college. He desires to take the business we started and take it to new levels. I have participated in some of the sessions and can speak to the benefit I see in my brother having this type of coaching. While it is a lot for him to pay, it is not much for a coach to make. I am sure it is out of genuine passion that most coaches of this type offer their services. I am not speaking of the packaged offerings, but rather the one on one session opportunity. My brother views it as an opportunity of a life time.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 20, 2017 02:19PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
Mindpro,

I agree with everything you just said.

As for my comment questioning your background, credentials, experience, etc., I still don't know who you are, so don't take it personally, but I never make a significant investment in anything or anyone without first doing my homework. If others know who you are and are receiving value from your offerings, then I'm happy for them and you, and I wish you and your clients continued success!

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano [/quote]

What you aren't getting the memos from the couple of members here that enjoy sharing such private information for sport and personal agendas? Perhaps you gotta opt-in, lol?

No offense taken Lou. Like you, most do not know me (or perhaps realize they do) when they start my coaching either, but do so based on my knowledge and shared experience. Sometimes I think some actually join my coaching just to find out who I am, lol). It's like buying a book or other resource, if one only buys from those they know they may be missing out on a lot of great information. I rarely know people who I learned or bought from, and it was their information that may have created a relationship based on shared interests.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 02:25PM)
What is meant by "most people in business fail"?

Here is a news flash. If you need someone to motivate you coaching on any level is going to fail. Not because of the coach, not because of the process but because of you.

The idea that a coach has access to done secret information you just can't find on your own is ludicrous. There is copious amounts of information out there. No coach has a magic bullet for you.

But if you feel you need it, then go for it.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 20, 2017 03:13PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Here is a news flash. If you need someone to motivate you coaching on any level is going to fail. Not because of the coach, not because of the process but because of you.

The idea that a coach has access to done secret information you just can't find on your own is ludicrous. There is copious amounts of information out there. No coach has a magic bullet for you.

But if you feel you need it, then go for it. [/quote]

On this point I agree with you 100%. Motivation does come from within.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 03:38PM)
Absolutely.

And by the way Charlie with your idea that most fall in business you must base that on those who have little success when trying.

Well according to that theory most coaching students fail. Apply your theory consistently.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 20, 2017 05:05PM)
I remember having lunch with Zig Ziglar many years ago and he said this very thing, “motivation comes from within.” I quietly said in a joking tone, then why do people pay you such high fees, he put his finger up to his mouth and gave me the shhh sign, and said, it’s a secret, as we both laughed. Still today, one of Zig’s most remembered sayings is, “People often say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily.”

So I do agree, “Motivation comes from within” but sometimes self gets lazy and we need to be reminded to get up and go. A good coach can be helpful with this because a ‘good’ coach is more than just a teacher; he/she is an accountability partner. It is so easy to break the promises we make to ourselves, but less so when we involve other people. Even the best self starters get lazy at times and a little push and nudge from someone else can be the difference between success and failure.

Also, I completely agree with Lou that knowing a little something about the coach is very important. Teacher habits can be like viruses and easily transferred from one to the other and often are caught without you knowing it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 06:03PM)
Hey if for whatever reason you need one go ahead, get one.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 20, 2017 06:24PM)
If saving $1,000 or more per month won't motivate me (by not hiring a coach) I'm not sure what they ever could do to motivate me!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 07:01PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, thomasR wrote:
If saving $1,000 or more per month won't motivate me (by not hiring a coach) I'm not sure what they ever could do to motivate me! [/quote]

Welcome to my island. Care for a drink?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 20, 2017 07:14PM)
Most people who desire to have a sustained career in the entertainment business that supports their family and provides them with the standard of living they aspire to, fail to achieve that goal. This is what I meant by most people failing.
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
And by the way Charlie with your idea that most fall in business you must base that on those who have little success when trying. [/quote]
This is true - not sure how to tease out the numbers, but a very valid point.

[quote]Well according to that theory most coaching students fail. Apply your theory consistently. [/quote]
I am not sure if there are statistics that look at success rates based on with/without coaching, but it would be interesting. Of course you would have to take into account that those who hire coaches are already a different subset regardless of the benefit/lack of benefit that coaching offers.
The whole reason to consider hiring a coach is if it offers you a greater opportunity for success than moving forward without one, a competitive advantage. Many companies hire consultants for lengthy contracts, despite having access to resources on their own.

It seems like there are differing perceptions of how different people are perceiving and defining a coach and what a coach offers.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 08:11PM)
Companies hiring consultants is apples and oranges.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 20, 2017 09:39PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Companies hiring consultants is apples and oranges. [/quote]


Agreed.

I can't help but roll my eyes at people's Instagram accounts. They're claiming to be "life coaches" and they're 26 years old.
I'm sure the same happens with magicians. They get a restaurant gig and now they've got a course, or coaching/consulting going on.

Are there viable coaches? Sure. But I wouldn't ever consider one without verifying the veracity of their claims.

Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 20, 2017 10:27PM)
Robert yes.

I think the attraction of the process is feeling like you are doing something. Some people actually need that.

Some end up needing the process and are sort of addicted to it. It is akin to this who keep taking hypnosis seminars and never ever do an actual hypnosis show.

If it helps you then do it. That is the bottom line. Clearly the op has received some benefit from it. That is money well spent.

Clearly Lou likes the process and it benefits him. That is money well spent.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 21, 2017 07:22AM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert [/quote]

I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 21, 2017 10:05AM)
99% of coaches give the others a bad name.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 21, 2017 10:33AM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
99% of coaches give the others a bad name. [/quote]

Yes. And 99% of coaches say they are the 1%! Ha!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 21, 2017 10:45AM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, thomasR wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
99% of coaches give the others a bad name. [/quote]

Yes. And 99% of coaches say they are the 1%! Ha! [/quote]

Oh my yes a nice addition!
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Mar 21, 2017 12:52PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google. [/quote]
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere. [/quote]
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
99% of coaches give the others a bad name. [/quote]
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Yes. And 99% of coaches say they are the 1%! Ha! [/quote]

I think I got this.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 21, 2017 01:01PM)
I'm betting you actually don't.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 21, 2017 01:33PM)
[quote]On Mar 18, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Here's a thought.... rather than paying one lump sum to a personal coach over a year, you could potentially spread that out and have multiple "personal consultations" that would cover a range of topics and views. [/quote]

I was thinking about this comment, and trying to figure out why it wasn't sitting well with me, and then it hit me.

I recently had a conversation with someone who's 5-day conference I'll be attending later this year, and he gave me an analogy to think about. This is the way he put it:

His wife makes the best apple pie. It's so good that people often ask for her recipe. Once they have the recipe they start gathering the ingredients, but instead of using a particular brand of crust they decide to use a different brand, and instead of using real sugar they decide to use an artificial sweetener, and instead of baking the pie for an hour they bake it for 45 minutes. Once the pie is finished they wonder why the pie doesn't taste the same.The answer is that they changed the recipe.

The same can apply to having multiple consultants. You're not following any particular recipe. You're mixing and matching, and the result is something completely different from what any of the consultants were trying to help you achieve. The result might be better, or it might be worse.

I'm not saying that it's a bad way of doing things, but it's certainly something to consider.

One final thought: If one is just learning to bake, it's probably best to stick with the recipe. If you're already an expert chef, then experimentation can be a wonderful thing.

Respectfully,

Lou serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 21, 2017 01:55PM)
I also think there are many layers and levels to this which many fail to recognize or understand. Some learn and work better in a group setting, others prefer one on one. In a group setting some eat up the "interaction exercises with those around you" type of stuff (turn to the person next to you, behind you, and ...), others despise this, some prefer to read, some prefer to watch video, some need to see examples, others don't and would rather see/use it as applied to their own as the example, some prefer step by step instruction, others prefer to get a more complete understanding and figure the implementation as it best fits them, some learn by a definitive text or curriculum while others prefer more in-depth analysis and discussion leading to self-application.

Same for when it comes to books or manuals, some begin by looking at the last page to see how long it is, then as they read or progress through it their inner-dialog is "I'm a 1/4 of the way through it", "now I'm halfway through it", and "only 35 more pages to go." Getting to the end is all that matters and in the shortest time possible, others prefer to be much more thorough and digest every nugget and morsel completely with a full understanding and applicable plan as it applies directly to themselves. While yet others first want to read through it, then plan on immediately going through it a second and perhaps third time more thoroughly.

How people want, desire and respond to learning, education, implementation and information in general varies completely from person to person. Coaching is and should be a very personal experience. Same for content. It is also much more than just coaching as for many it is the mentoring that is also extremely beneficial. Having direct access to a wealth of someone's knowledge is priceless. Those that were lucky enough to come up with mentors know exactly what I'm talking about, others can only imagine or try to understand.

Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results.

I can't tell you how many I have worked with have said "wow, there is far more to being a successful performer or running an entertainment business that I would have ever imagined." Breaking incorrect perceptions and poor habits and beliefs is only the beginning. As is teaching the concept of operating from the sole perspective of honesty and reality.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 21, 2017 02:25PM)
Lou, I do understand what you are saying and it makes some sense. I'm more of the type who would look up good recipes, both free and paid, and then research the best apples in my area, and then based on several recipes try to bake an apple pie that is perfect for me in my current location, season, etc.

And at any point... I can call or email a pastry chef and ask questions or advice.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Mar 21, 2017 04:22PM)
Guys I think many of you are over analyzing the concept of coaching. If you want a coach who has your exact same situation, you may never find one. So far I have had two different coaches and both of them are in very different locations and markets than I am, yet I have still learned a lot from them.

When I get a coach I come from the place of the student, to figure out what I can learn rather than point out how their business is different from mine. I wonder, to those who are taking an oppositional stance to coaching in this thread - have you ever had a coach for your business?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 21, 2017 05:10PM)
No I haven't had a coach, nor do I ever intend to hire one. I would absolutely hire someone for consultations... And maybe that would even turn into something that resembled coaching.

Tim... Maybe you can speak on what specifically your coaches did for you? what did a coach help you accomplish and do you think you could have accomplised that without his or her help and why or why not?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 21, 2017 06:02PM)
Taking smart risks is one thing I have tried to hold myself to. I recall four years ago in The Little Darlings section The Great Zucchini offered to have anyone come see a few of his performances and join him for dinner at no expense, no strings attached. He had reported to perform about 500 shows a year, most for his asking price of $350. What ensued on the Café was typical actions of performers calling him out, doubting his claims and such. My brother and I contacted him, jumped in our cars and headed 7 hours to Washington to take him up on the offer. That weekend we learned first hand about how to apply the law of scarcity, target market, show create, control audiences, set customer expectations and a whole lot more. Oh, and one other thing...we also received the necessary contacts to apply for performing at The White House Easter Egg Roll. As we drove back home we were wondering how many children's performers might live in a 7 hour radius of Washington that chose to believe he (Zucchini) wasn't worth their time.

I share this because here again we have a senario where Mindpro has posted content numerous times at length that for all the world seems like he sure knows of what he speaks. In this thread alone is pure gold for those willing to digest his offering. Yet, we have the doubters and ones who want to see more. My brother, I'm sure, did not mean for this thread to be a infomercial for Mindpro, but if in sharing my perspective on it seems like it is, so be it. Mindpro's intro offer was the cost of a new prop and a four hour investment of time. With as much exposure we have to his body of work it is a no brainer for those who are serious and in need of assistance either setting or achieving their career ambitions. It is a smart risk, there is just no other way to say it. That is not to say that it would necessarily benefit everyone, or that one might be better off pursuing Lou's offering (or others) and taking a smart risk on that. I am simply saying that many performers would benefit from expanding their horizons.

I
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 21, 2017 07:00PM)
Never had a coach. Never will.

I have had many mentors. Never ever had anyone feel the need to charge me for information. All I had to be was willing to actually listen.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 21, 2017 07:24PM)
You pretty much just proved my point exactly... for a 7 hour drive you got a lot of value that was directly applicable to your specific type of performance. That seems to be way more value than paying a coach on a monthly basis.

As for MindPro specifically... he seems to be an expert at acting like he's an expert online. That's about all I know about him. I've never seen anyone want to hide their identity so much online... but I don't know.. maybe in reality he's David Copperfield? I'm not saying I doubt any of his claims, but I have no reason to believe them either. Comparing him to the Great Zuchini seems odd.. I can look up Zuchinis website and see that he is a regular performer with lots of shows booked. I can see what he looks like, how he talks, the venues he performs in, etc.

My thoughts on coaching are all general thoughts... not aimed at MindPro. I'm sure he's as good of a coach as most.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 21, 2017 07:25PM)
Danny- ironically, one of the things I spoke with Mindpro about last week was your rich experience getting to learn from the famous Chicago Bar Magic Scene and working at magic shops gaining invaluable entertainment experience. Times have changed. Shops are closed, few attend magic clubs, so getting to know mentors on that level seems less likely in today's world. The trade off is that there is way more connectivity on a broader sense today from internet connections like we have here. I would think the concept of paying and charging for information is the cultural norm today as well. Wether it is downloads, lectures, conferences or coaching - my generation is accustomed to paying for it. In reality, it is probably your generation that never had to pay for such information that the prices charged today for such content remain relatively low.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 21, 2017 07:42PM)
ThomasR, You are assuming that the discussions I have with Mindpro regard the type of performance I currently have. I can assure you, they are not. Just because we received an offer from Zucchini that fulfilled many our needs at that time, does not mean other learning interactions are not valuable. If Mindpro were David Copperfield, he would probably not be able to guide me on my path with the same value Mindpro likely will bring.

Regarding assesing Zucchini's validity, hind site is 20/20. He had all that information on display 4 years ago, he also had articles in the Washington Post detailing his unique approach - never the less the doubters were numerous and vocal. Somewhere the threads still exist. People/Coaches are not always as they appear. Look at Joe Paterno. At some point you have to decide if you trust your instincts and make a move on things.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Mar 22, 2017 03:55PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results.. [/quote]

So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?

More of the same, embedded in long paragraphs by an anonymous poster.

If there's an exchange of money involved, I'd go for someone with experience in the field I want to excel in, and an available track record.
I don't have anything to sell here, combined with a lifetime of experience in these very topics; it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 22, 2017 04:04PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results.. [/quote]

So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?

More of the same, embedded in long paragraphs by an anonymous poster.

If there's an exchange of money involved, I'd go for someone with experience in the field I want to excel in, and an available track record.
I don't have anything to sell here, combined with a lifetime of experience in these very topics; it's easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. [/quote]

You just can't wait to attack him can you? What is the basis of your problem exactly?
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Mar 22, 2017 04:17PM)
If you saw that as an attack, then you're already biased, and there's no point in explaining to you (again) the reasons I question Mindpro's advice.
The content, Danny, the content. Read what I wrote again, and respond to THAT, instead of veering off into mischaracterizing the very plain speech in my post, and trying to make it personal. It's not.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 22, 2017 05:11PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, Keith Raygor wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Most information available is for a specific approach, from a specific person for a specific discipline. This is incredibly limiting as far as content, expected results and actual results.

There is much more to this including the deeper levels of psychology for one to be productive and successful. Anything else is typically general information which to me has minimal value and limited results.. [/quote]
[quote]
So, specifice information for a specific discipline is incredibly limiting on results.
And, anything besides the deeper levels of psychology (and more) is typically general information - which has minimal value and limited results.

Which is it? Or is it both?[/quote]

When I read this, I thought of it this way. If a carpenter inquired from a coach/mentor "which hammer is optimal for the job am am doing? Providing the answer directly and pointing the individual in the direction on where to obtain such a hammer will carry the carpenter through on that particular project, but will not serve to address the broader based concern, which is that the student likely knows little about how and why hammers are designed with subtle differences from to another in the way they are constructed to provide optimal results across a wide array of possible applications. Teaching about this in a technique that both engagies and ensures the lesson is retained by the student requires a different and more specialized skill set. Additionally, there are of course other tools besides hammers that might be preferable for some of the jobs one is considering using a hammer for. They not only need to know about such tools, but they need to know the advantages and disadvantages to make an informed decision and truly grow in their craft in a meaningful way.

Entertaining is much more complicated than this example, because it involves the complexities of human interaction. Entertainment business includes entertainment, and a whole lot more.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 22, 2017 05:26PM)
Carpenters buying hammers.. Chefs baking pies...

If 2 trains depart Chicago at the same time, one with a coach, and one without a coach which will arrive at the destination on time?
The coach will inspire the train engineer to head for the mountains, the sky is the limit! And just think.. after driving a train through the mountains you will have excellent train handling skills!
Meanwhile the engineer without a coach takes the easy path across the plains.. it's less inspirational (no mountain views after all!) but allows for faster average speeds and puts a lot less stress on the engine.

I'm not really sure if that makes sense or not but if hammers and pies can be used.. why not trains!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 22, 2017 05:51PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Carpenters buying hammers.. Chefs baking pies...

If 2 trains depart Chicago at the same time, one with a coach, and one without a coach which will arrive at the destination on time?
The coach will inspire the train engineer to head for the mountains, the sky is the limit! And just think.. after driving a train through the mountains you will have excellent train handling skills!
Meanwhile the engineer without a coach takes the easy path across the plains.. it's less inspirational (no mountain views after all!) but allows for faster average speeds and puts a lot less stress on the engine.

I'm not really sure if that makes sense or not but if hammers and pies can be used.. why not trains! [/quote]

I am as confused as you are.

And since we are not talking about sports or anything but magic I wonder if coaches deprive students of the experience of learning to the detriment of the student?

So much is learned from our own mistakes. Why be so afraid to make them?
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 22, 2017 06:11PM)
I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Mar 22, 2017 06:20PM)
I'm starting to see a trend here in the way in which certain people process information.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 22, 2017 06:44PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef? [/quote]

That happened once and they called him, the chief cook and bottle washer. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 22, 2017 09:12PM)
I'm still unsure of what a coach is actually supposed to do.

Give you a clear business path

Tell you how to make more money

Motivate you to establish a clear business path in order to make more money.

Am I missing something?
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 22, 2017 09:19PM)
Thomas,

The right coach will help you achieve your particular goals, so it's different for everybody.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 22, 2017 09:31PM)
That seems pretty convenient.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 22, 2017 09:38PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
Thomas,

The right coach will help you achieve your particular goals, so it's different for everybody.

Lou Serrano [/quote]

Well, you claim to have used coaches. What did one of them do for you. What was your particular goals. why did you feel you needed a coach? Did you meet your goal(s), and do you honestly think you needed a coach to achieve those goals and why?

Please know I'm not being argumentative... I'm genuinely interested. (And this question isn't just for Lou, anyone who has had a coach, please feel free to answer!)
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 22, 2017 10:17PM)
Thomas,

Read my first two posts on this thread, and you'll get your answers.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 22, 2017 10:47PM)
ThomasR I think you have a narrow perception of coaching or mentoring as only as being someone who helps someone attain goals they could've attained on their own. To help them with their current goals. Questions as you've eluded to as "what were your goals and why did you feel you needed a coach to attain them" are not what most that I have worked with over the years ever perceived.

Helping someone reach their existing goals may be part of coaching, training and consulting, but most of those I work with do so for advanced education and industry knowledge to help themselves attain their goals. To provide knowledge, experience and insight they have not experienced, obtained or in many cases are even aware of. To gain formation they can't gain elsewhere. To learn information not commonly available.

You must remember there is no qualification to be a performer. No formal study or education, no organization or requirements. Every kid that had a magic set thinks they could simply become a magician. Every person to buy a karaoke machine thinks they could offer a karaoke business. And for many years anyone with a sound system and music collection believed they could be a DJ. There's no one at the door, no eligibility or requirements, and mostly no formal education or curriculum. So what you get is a bunch of guys essentially "winging it" based on "what they think, feel or believe" not true reality. This of course is the worst possible scenario for a business.

Coaching, consulting, training and mentoring allow for all of the missing or avoided elements to be confronted, addressed, acquired and overcome. Most I know go into coaching to learn, to gain knowledge and skills that will be applicable to their business. The by-product of much of this is allowing them to attain their goals more directly, more knowledgably, and more quickly, often being better prepared for what will be encountered when they do.

Coaching is much more than just a paid rah-rah supporter. Far from it. It is almost like a personal manager, you get your hands dirty in the personal education and achievement with the client. Their interests, goals and business, become yours. Most of my coaching and consulting students stay three years, some currently as long as 12 years in my advanced MasterMind level. I am an investment in their education, learning curve and truly their business. Could they do it on their own? Maybe, possibly. Usually at a much greater cost of time, money and investment.

As many will tell you, what I offer is like a Masters Degree in live entertainment business and performance (their words, not mine, yet it is said over and over again.) At my recent Las Vegas workshop I had kids performers, corporate performers, someone who was beginning their own self-produced theater show, someone who was very interested and committed to creating their own unique and new market, and another that in interested in creating their own national tour. Everyone's interests are specialized and range far beyond helping them to reach their basic goals.

Many come to get a far greater understanding of the business of live entertainment. How to scale and grow your business other than by just booking more gigs. They quickly realize entertainment business is far different from conventional business. Some want to learn the many different facets of the business. "How do I go into an elementary school and earn $2500-$3500 a show? Do I give them the quick answer? No. I educate and teach them about the educational market in every facet so when they get the answer they know and fully understand all of the whys, when, who, what and hows. More than just giving them what they think they need. More times than not what they think they need and what they are really asking for are very different things.

It is also a progression for many of these people. Some start with specific interests. But then, they achieve these interests and goals and of course for most, it doesn't stop. Their are other levels, opportunities, markets or business strides to achieve. Progress rarely ends. Fortunately I am able to help most to even the most advance levels they are seeking. There is a partnership and a trust. Coaching is much more than just someone helping or guiding you, much more.

Of course I'm not speaking for Lou, just for myself.

To me its not much different from going to college or a trade school to get the best education you can to excel and position yourself with the best chance for education, knowledge and success in their chosen profession.

I only wish this was available when I was just starting out. I would have accomplished my goals much quicker and more directly.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 23, 2017 02:26PM)
MindPro..

There has to be a goal or goals for hiring a coach. If there isn't a goal, there is no need to hire a coach. So me asking "what were your goals and why did you feel you needed a coach to attain them" does not make me have a narrow perception of coaching.

Everything you mentioned could very well be one of a clients goals. "I want to finish my coaching feeling like I have a masters degree in entertainment" can be the goal.

Everything you wrote is 100% biased since you are a coach.... but you made some decent points.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 23, 2017 04:31PM)
[quote]On Mar 23, 2017, thomasR wrote:
MindPro..

There has to be a goal or goals for hiring a coach. If there isn't a goal, there is no need to hire a coach. So me asking "what were your goals and why did you feel you needed a coach to attain them" does not make me have a narrow perception of coaching. [/quote]

For most people, it is to learn (know) what it is they they realize they don't know. It's for information and education. Knowledge. Often knowledge they can not get elsewhere. That would be the primary goal. Then followed of course as how to apply and execute it specifically as it pertains to them, their needs, markets and individual aspects.

"Everything you wrote is 100% biased since you are a coach" is incorrect. I am a student and an entertainer first and foremost. My coaching, consulting, training and mentoring is only a byproduct or result of these other areas. In reality I am an entertainer, agent and agency owner, talent broker, producer, promoter, media representative first and foremost.

Those that are part of my community know that NONE of this information was available when I was seeking, searching and needing it. I was mentored by some of the best in the business with the understanding that I would someday use this knowledge and information to help others with the same interests and struggles that I once had. I have never forgotten this and have made every effort to keep my word to these guys (and ladies).

I was also a coach long before today's popular trend of "coaches" based in little or minimal experience or solely on their own personal experience. As we have seen here, guys are becoming coaches, gurus and experts after having done only one single performance! In reality I make very little money for what I offer and especially for the information I share and the education I offer. So no, I do not speak from a biased perspective of just a coach, I must disagree.

Coaching is only a small part of it, in actuality the training, mentoring and consulting becomes the greatest areas most are seeking and find the most beneficial.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 23, 2017 07:41PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
To me its not much different from going to college or a trade school to get the best education you can to excel and position yourself with the best chance for education, knowledge and success in their chosen profession. [/quote]

This is exactly the way I view it. I believe that I owed it to myself to obtain a deeper understanding of the whole industry. I find it to be a fasinating way to learn because unlike a college ciuriculum, it involves running a real business, my business.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Mar 23, 2017 09:29PM)
I rarely post here, but frequently read the threads.

This thread has quite a number of misconceptions that have lead to 3 pages of confusion and debate.

First let me state where I come from to support my explanation for the rest of my post.

I've made my corporate career working in investment banking and management consulting. I've been involved in the acquisition of multinational multi-billion dollar corporations to assisting non-profits and even sole proprietorships get started.

ThomasR - I interpret from your posts that you are combining mentor, coach, and consultant. Others are and agree with you while others partially agree or view them all as separate and distinct.

Personally, through my experience they are separate and distinct. A coach, will provide training to help a client achieve a specific goal or target for a fee, a mentor operates as a sounding board to provide council and guidance from her experience at no charge. A consultant will-for a price-fill the knowledge gap for the client through advisory services. The key distinction is the advisory services are supported by a work product that says what to do, with facts to support why, and how to do it.

I don't blame anyone for the confusion because many as we move downstream to the small business, individuals are overwhelmed with misinformation from hack info marketers, telling them how to be a "consultant." These guys mix and match these three functions and use them as buzzwords to catch individuals attentions.

Now in my experience, a consultant is closer to a doctor, you tell us your symptoms and we will diagnose you and provide a prescription. A coach is closer to a physical therapist, they show you how to perform activities then work with you to ensure you are doing it properly. A mentor is closest to the old grandma who has her home remedies to cure specific problems that she has encountered and knows works for her.

A mentor cannot provide you the depth and breadth of service of a consultant just like grandmas cures aren't the same as a dr prescription. Sometimes firms can provide both consulting and coaching (read as training) and compensation can be a percent of profits to align interests, but those are sold separately and aligning interests are usually done by smaller shops to "sell" the customer on the idea of bein partners in success.

I hope that clarifies the difference in terms.

Now why would anyone hire a consultant?
As was said most people can do the work themselves so why pay someone? To save time and/or moneyFor example, a lawyer is a consultant on legal matters, given enough time you could draft up your own contract and/or agreements that would be valid in your legal jurisdiction. But it costs you time and potentially money. While hiring the lawyer provides you a work product supported by facts and experience potentially at a cheaper all in cost (time money and risk)

We hire coaches to help develop the techniques taught and hold us accountable that we do the techniques.
Neither can guarantee success- no technique or advisory service can do that.

Hope that helps.

Walter
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 23, 2017 10:13PM)
WDavis... Thanks for this. I'm not sure which post led you to think that I had mixed all of these up... but what you wrote out is pretty much what I thought initially before diving into this thread.

I've had a mentor (he was a manager for bands, and owned several music festivals... everything had to be translated from the pre-youtube music industry. So I can relate to the Gramma with stories and old cures thought...) and I would absolutely hire a consultant. And as I said in a previous thread... perhaps that consultant would turn into a regular consultation that would resemble coaching to some.

What I would have no interest in is hiring a coach to inspire me, and hold me accountable to practices they think are best for me. If I need a consultant to help me map out a plan of action, so be it. But I'm fully capable of following through with a business plan on my own. And on the days when I'm not inspired... I can give myself my own pep talk.

It does sound like MindPro's coaching is more than the traditional sense of the word that you described.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 01:16AM)
I sort of see the coach thing as a personal trainer. Yep you can have the equipment and know what to do but he gets you doing it. At least that seems to be the claim.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 07:32AM)
A famous dead man once said that if you can’t explain something in a few words you probably don’t understand it yourself.

In a small business setting I would describe a coach as an ‘acting partner’

The coach comes in with a fresh set of eyes and says if it were me I would do this…


Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 24, 2017 07:48AM)
In a small business setting I would call that a consultant.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 08:36AM)
A consultant provides information. But often is no more than a ‘yes’ man.

A coach promotes self-discovery and builds on the client's strengths.

One promises information. The other promises results.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 10:52AM)
So now you claim a coach promises results?

Now this is getting ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Mar 24, 2017 02:00PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
A famous dead man once said that if you can’t explain something in a few words you probably don’t understand it yourself.

In a small business setting I would describe a coach as an ‘acting partner’

[b]The coach comes in with a fresh set of eyes and says if it were me I would do this…[/b]


Tom [/quote]


[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
A consultant provides information. But often is no more than a ‘yes’ man.

[b]A coach promotes self-discovery and builds on the client's strengths. [/b]

One promises information. The other promises results.

Tom [/quote]

Tom you contradict yourself. I've bolded your contradiction.
Also, both provide results. a work product is a result, but the hyperbole you are using to imply successful outcome is impossible to guarantee or to use your word promise.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 02:57PM)
Not contradiction, they do both of those you have in bold.

Well Yes, a good coach can promise success. I certainly wouldn’t hire one that wouldn’t. Would you? :)

It’s not like buying a book where you just looking for information.

You hire a coach to see results. Now true they don't come aboard to do all the work for you, but the goal
is to see that you do succeed. That is the job. You not buying a book from them you buying a service.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 03:24PM)
It seems like few here are really understanding the concept and tend to have their own subjective view rather than what it actually is. Too bad for the OP that seemed to actually want to get into a discussion about the benefits of such and earning from others experiences, and how it worked for others, not to debate what it is, should be or ask for opinions if you would ever do it.

For the life of me I'll never understand why guys chime in only to offer opinions when they have no experience with the topic. It would be different if the OP said, "I'd like to get your opinions on coaching." He didn't. The topic was for those with actual experience the way I understood it.

He seemed to be enjoying his progress and wanted to start a conversation with others who have done so, as well to share EXPERIENCES!
Personally I applaud him for doing so as many who utilize coaching, consulting or mentorship may not want others to they have done so for a variety of reasons.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 03:33PM)
Mindpro,

All I’m saying is a coach is hired to produce results.

If they can’t do that, you don’t need them.

You agree with that?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 03:38PM)
No, not always. Sometimes it's for critique, other times to gain another perspective from someone with more experience, and other times it's just to have someone with knowledge and experience to bounce ideas off of to see if its viable. I get many that come to me just to identify what they are (may be) doing wrong or not knowing what to do. It is about information and knowledge if anything. Ultimately it would be nice if that information can lead to results, but its not always for the purpose of results.

That's why I said, it often crosses over into consulting, training and mentorship and borderline business psychiatry.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 04:04PM)
I agree a coach wears many hats. And I agree in some cases you can just recommend a book.
But you shouldn’t be charging a coaching fee if that is ALL you do.

Bottom line better be 'results' or the 'coach' hasn’t done his job.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 04:31PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
But you shouldn’t be charging a coaching fee if that is ALL you do.

Tom [/quote]

Of course not. I don't know any coaches that would do that. If that was ALL you do it wouldn't really be coaching.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 05:21PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I agree a coach wears many hats. And I agree in some cases you can just recommend a book.
But you shouldn’t be charging a coaching fee if that is ALL you do.

Bottom line better be 'results' or the 'coach' hasn’t done his job.

Tom [/quote]

Wow. Just wow. It is amazing how many myths you choose to promote.

One can argue that Phil Jackson is probably the best coach in the history of the idea. Here is a quote from this article.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2691601-phil-jackson-knicks-stymied-by-wanting-carmelo-to-be-something-he-is-not

"It is a common story in sports.

Often, it's a parent. Occasionally, it's a friend.

An inordinate amount of times, it's a coach or mentor.

Someone wants it more for the athlete than the athlete wants it for himself.

You can't just download someone else's vision for achievement, greatness or even teamwork into a particularly gifted body.

Yet the dream that you can push and prod or show and sell remains so enchanting…until there comes a point where there's no more advice to give, no more frustration to stand and then no more chance for the dream to come true."

If Phil Jackson can't guarantee results how can anyone Tom?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 05:51PM)
Danny, let me borrow your exact words from page one of this thread:

[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
There is a huge difference in sports and business. [/quote]


Yes it is amazing, how you like to attack for no reason.
Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 05:55PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, let me borrow your exact words from page one of this thread:

[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
There is a huge difference in sports and business. [/quote]


Yes it is amazing.

Tom [/quote]
Show me a coach Tom who GUARANTEES RESULTS.

All I am asking you is to back up a statement. You won't. No attack, just wanting to see it.

Also show me a consultant who is nothing but a "yes man". Heck in EVERY company I have ever worked with when a consultant comes in it is with the specific purpose of turning things about so that the "yes men" are seeing things differently.

Good consultants are not yes men. Not by a long shot. Yet you continue to spread misconceptions.

A consultant who is a yes man does not work much.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 05:59PM)
As I said, people have some distorted perceptions of this concept.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 24, 2017 06:05PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert [/quote]

I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere. [/quote]

So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 06:31PM)
Danny, just google, “Business coaching that offers a guarantee.” And you will find page after page that offers some sort of guarantee.

In years past the ones I hired guaranteed the fee back quickly or you got your money back.

Any honest business coach would certainly not want your money if they didn’t help the business. But hey, maybe magic is different and you just hope for the best.

Mindpro seems to promise a lot, so maybe he could tell us how his guarantee works. Or do we just take a gamble with him.

Tom
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 24, 2017 06:59PM)
This thread started out very promising, and once again it's deteriorated like so many others. People wonder why this part of the Café is dead. One only needs to look at this thread to see why.

I don't know why I even bother chiming in anymore. It's time for me to once again take a sabbatical.

Have fun debating in circles everyone.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 24, 2017 07:35PM)
Lou... I really liked your feedback in this thread. Since you are both a coach, and have hired a coach, you had some unique insight.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 07:45PM)
Same here Lou, I enjoy your posts here.
Sorry for my part of the distraction.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 24, 2017 07:59PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Too bad for the OP that seemed to actually want to get into a discussion about the benefits of such and earning from others experiences, and how it worked for others, not to debate what it is, should be or ask for opinions if you would ever do it.
[/quote]

In checkers first post he wrote "Being that not many here refer to coaches or coaching advice they have received, it makes me think not many have hired coaches. I wonder what everyone's thoughts are on the topic of utilizing coaching to advance ones business?"

Seemed like a pretty open question. I think everyone stayed on that topic. It seems like several people's definition of a Coach is quite different.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 08:04PM)
I like Lou's posts as well. I just wish he would post other than when he has something to pitch.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 08:06PM)
Http://www.schoolofcoachingmastery.com/coaching-blog/bid/88582/Why-the-Best-Life-Coaches-Don-t-Offer-Money-Back-Guarantees

Came up on page one of your suggested search Tom. Go figure.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 08:19PM)
Danny, That one is for ‘Life Coaching’ not business. Most all the others on that page suggest that any decent business
coach will offer a return on investment guarantee.

Same page:
http://www.actioncoach.com/actioncoach-guarantee/

http://resultsguaranteedcoaching.com/

https://mauimastermind.com/business-coaching/business-coaching-guarantee/


Another one on that page reads:
“Everyone needs a coach... with no feedback, no coaching, there’s just no way to improve.” --Bill Gates

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 24, 2017 08:28PM)
"This week, a new life coach asked me whether she should offer a money-back guarantee. Some life coaches (as well as other personal coaches, like business and executive coaches) offer money-back guarantees to make it easier to close sales. The thinking is that few people ever ask for their money back, so you'll increase your sales and make more money.

That approach makes sense if you're selling flashlights, but if you're pouring your heart and soul into a personalized relationship that leads to extraordinary results for your coaching clients, the unintended consequences may outweigh any extra sales you make."

From the first paragraph Tom. It is right there in the second sentence in parentheses.

But they guarantee VALUE, not the RESULTS Tom. See the difference?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 08:32PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
I don't know why I even bother chiming in anymore. It's time for me to once again take a sabbatical.
[/quote]

That's because the affiliate offer ends today. (Oops it was extended for 24 hours so you'll have to hang in here one more day, lol.)
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 24, 2017 08:36PM)
Most of the guarantees there read like this:

“We Guarantee to get results, and that you’ll be able to “Find our Fee” in your business within 17-weeks of ActionCOACH coaching your company … or your coaching is FREE.”

“We guarantee – in WRITING – that the program will pay for itself 200% within the first 12 months of working together or you’ll get a full, complete, and TOTAL refund!”


Sounds like results or money back to me.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 24, 2017 08:37PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert [/quote]

I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere. [/quote]

So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has? [/quote]

Quite frankly, yes, lol. Since I have been told I am the only member in all of he Café that has professional industry experience and success in all six areas of the entertainment industry, I would say that to be true. Which is also why I am extremely selective with whom I share this experience and knowledge. Trust me, and feel free to ask any of my students and clients, you will not find it on Google and in all my years here much of it has never been discussed unless I bring a small bit of it into the discussion. Its only secret when you don't know it. You don't know what you don't know.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Mar 24, 2017 09:10PM)
Tom,

Your guarantee is actually a clever marketing ploy to promote a protection against lawsuits as a client benefit. The majority of state courts will honor that guarantee/clause as a cap against losses.

To bring this thread back on to a discussion of coaches and experiences using them. In the small business advisory perspective, Mindpro states briefly, but in actuality is a significant factor, business psychiatrist. I've always refered to it as a marriage counselor. It is significant enough for the SME market, I feel it bears repeating.

Additionally, I personally wouldn't hire a coach, under retainer, for general purpose help over my business needs. I feel that's a waste of resources for the business owner that benefits the coach. I find coaching is effective when used in staff/individual training in a specific matter. Done this way it is usually acheaper and more effective use of business assets. Finally, all coaches and businesses need to interview eachother to see if there is a fit-both technically and psychologically. I have no qualms turning down a prospect because I didn't like them or their business model and other times because I didn't have the skillset needed to satisfy their need.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 24, 2017 09:29PM)
A few thoughts to add:

Coaching- I learned a lot from this thread with respect to how the term "coach" can mean different things to different people. Probably much in the same way the term "magician" might conjure up diverse ranges within the term. For me, I did not get hung up on the term because I knew with a high degree of certainty what services I was going to receive from Mindpro. If I was google searching for such services, the terms might be more important. Mindpro offers much more than "coaching" in the narrow interpretation of the term. In fact he offers all the associated services people discussed here. That was not surprising to me, given his posts here over the years as well as the description in his terms for the two agreements I made with him. Likewise, I believe I have a good idea what Lou and others here are offering. Therefore the exact term used was not as important.

Phil Jackson - that is a great example of someone who draws the best from players more talented than he is. He puts them in positions to win. He does not simply show people what he did to be a successful player. It doesn't always work out, as the article points out, but that is what I seek in a coach.

Lou - just the other day you were posting here trying to have some fun at my brother's expense ("I'm confused as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the coach riding a train was also a chef?" Lou Serrano) Now you are leaving this thread and Tricky Business because the quality is not up to your standards? Wow! It really makes me wonder if there is not some truth to what Mindpro posted at the top of this page.

Rather than get caught up on terms, maybe a discussion on ways one can go about expanding their universe of knowledge (getting to "know what you don't know") as well as ways to learn from others would achieve more. Mentoring has been discussed - advice on that topic would be welcome. Likewise, if people have worked with consultants.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 24, 2017 10:22PM)
Hey now... if anyone gets the credit / blame for making the train joke it's me!

And to take your advice and get back on topic... Mentors. I did have a mentor when I started my entertainment business (about 10 years ago). He was the owner of several music festivals, and managed bands and artists out of Nashville. I started my company in order to produce theatrical circus / variety shows.. (the dream was to create a modern take on a traveling vaudeville show.. the reality... I self promoted and lost money on theatre shows and got booked mostly by cities for various festivals in their downtowns and parks. A few school and college shows, a few company picnics / conferences.).

Back to mentors... While my mentor did not have experience in circus or theatrical shows... He had years and years of experience in managing national touring acts, and booking acts and finding buyers / sponsors for festivals and events. He was able to give me very realistic advice on what to expect, and what to not expect when just starting out.

I've never hired a consultant, but I would be open to that in the right situation.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 25, 2017 05:50AM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, WDavis wrote:

To bring this thread back on to a discussion of coaches and experiences using them. In the small business advisory perspective, Mindpro states briefly, but in actuality is a significant factor, business psychiatrist. I've always referred to it as a marriage counselor. It is significant enough for the SME market, I feel it bears repeating. [/quote]

Yes, this is very true and a very strong part of it. I didn't mean to downplay it, I just figured many wouldn't truly understand it to the degree it truly exists (or would twist it away from its original intent and meaning). It is a huge part of almost every one of my students and clients' relationships. Relationships, is also a huge part of this as well. These two very much go hand in hand. Well stated.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 25, 2017 08:43AM)
WDavis, you are absolutely right that the guarantee is sometimes used as a clever marketing tool.
But some offer it because they simply believe in their product and are able to deliver what they promise.

Still that does not change the FACT that many do indeed offer a guarantee. I just wanted to clear up what
Danny said and insists that NOBODY offers a guarantee. It's clear he has no idea what he is talking about
and just wants to disagree on this.

So I won't ask mindpro again about his guarantee because it's clear that he does not guarantee his work.

Anyways,

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 25, 2017 10:07AM)
For the reasons in that article it is STUPID to guarantee results and as has been pointed out is marketing to people and nothing more. Much the same way that multi level marketing sells poisin or lie about how effective it is.

Anyways.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 25, 2017 12:21PM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 20, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.

-Robert [/quote]

I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere. [/quote]

So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has? [/quote]

Quite frankly, yes, lol. Since I have been told I am the only member in all of he Café that has professional industry experience and success in all six areas of the entertainment industry, I would say that to be true. Which is also why I am extremely selective with whom I share this experience and knowledge. Trust me, and feel free to ask any of my students and clients, you will not find it on Google and in all my years here much of it has never been discussed unless I bring a small bit of it into the discussion. Its only secret when you don't know it. You don't know what you don't know. [/quote]


"Trust me," says the anonymous source.

You do you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 25, 2017 01:28PM)
To be clear about the guarantee thing, I’m not saying everyone should or should not offer one. Simply pointing out that many selling to those that don’t know them do offer some type of guarantee.

Now if you only selling to those few that know you then you probably don’t need one. That is, if they already trust you. It’s all about trust. But if you are putting yourself out there to everyone, especially on the internet, or hiding your real name, you have to win that trust. A guarantee will certainly help ease the mind of strangers.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 25, 2017 02:21PM)
You just keep beating that same drum don't you?

It is sad.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 26, 2017 11:21AM)
[quote]On Mar 24, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Oh, there's that and 99.99999% of what any magic "coach" could tell you can be found for free searching the Café or even this cool new website called Google.
-Robert [/quote]
[quote]I think this is an opinion or perception of someone who truly doesn't understand or has not experienced working with a coach. While I am not a "magic coach" I work with many magicians and I can assure you 95% of my core content will not be found from a Google search and most not previously published or available elsewhere. [/quote]
[quote]So, what? You're like some sage who discovered a secret that no one else has? [/quote]

I just watched two of Robert Smith's vlogs on the Fair Market. I found both of them to be very informative - saving viewers potential time and money if pursuing the Fair Market, provide advice he accumulated through personal experience, and offer insights that expend one's mind on ways to approach the markets they serve or hope to one day serve. It made the exchange above seem odd though. If 99.99999% of information is free and easy to find, why the need for his vlogs? He mentioned in one vlog I viewed that his offering is that from a performers perspective - what if he also had experience hiring acts for fairs? Would his vlogs offer differing or additional advice? He shared that it took him years to know the proper way to approach the Fair Market - why, if it is true that the necessary information is so available?

Consider someone in my situation, that has a lifetime of a career ahead of me - not sure exactly what direction to go, and wanting to explore the possibilities in a way that is best linked to my skill sets, ambitions, life style choices, financial desires and such. Doesn't it make sense for me to seek assistance from one who is willing to know me, understand me and draw upon a diverse body of experience and knowledge to guide me?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 26, 2017 11:45AM)
Yea, no.

I see what you are getting at and on the surface it makes sense. BUT again does it not rob you of actually learning? Is being told something the same as "learning" it?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 26, 2017 12:00PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:

I just watched two of Robert Smith's vlogs on the Fair Market. I found both of them to be very informative - saving viewers potential time and money if pursuing the Fair Market, provide advice he accumulated through personal experience, and offer insights that expend one's mind on ways to approach the markets they serve or hope to one day serve. It made the exchange above seem odd though. If 99.99999% of information is free and easy to find, why the need for his vlogs? He mentioned in one vlog I viewed that his offering is that from a performers perspective - what if he also had experience hiring acts for fairs? Would his vlogs offer differing or additional advice? He shared that it took him years to know the proper way to approach the Fair Market - why, if it is true that the necessary information is so available?

Consider someone in my situation, that has a lifetime of a career ahead of me - not sure exactly what direction to go, and wanting to explore the possibilities in a way that is best linked to my skill sets, ambitions, life style choices, financial desires and such. Doesn't it make sense for me to seek assistance from one who is willing to know me, understand me and draw upon a diverse body of experience and knowledge to guide me? [/quote]

Great points.

Here's some clarification and thoughts to consider.

Every single platform you use on a daily basis, was born inside of the last 10 years. Was the information I needed available then? Yes. But it was much more difficult to get to. Back then I allowed myself to be seduced by convincing sales letters written by some "guru" for a program promising to have clients cramming money into your pockets. Only later did I find out that many of these people selling school show courses, corporate magic courses etc etc, started selling a course for $497 or $97 or $77 or whatever, after having done all of 10-20 shows.

That was the point of me saying...

[quote]RobertSmith, Mar 20, 2017 09:39pm
Are there viable coaches? Sure. But I wouldn't ever consider one without verifying the veracity of their claims. [/quote]

You used the words, "free and easy to find," in your post. I never said easy. It is EASIER than it was when I started out in 2002. But you've got to work to get it.

Here's an example...I just listened to a podcast yesterday that had an interview with Gazzo. Let me tell you something, there was more value to an upcoming magician in that one interview than in any course you can buy.

The information IS out there now. The internet is at scale. So if folks want to spend $497 for a "course." Or $34.95/mo to have a 1 hour consult every month, go for it. You do you.

I'll keep sharing my information. For free. [b]There will NEVER be a time when I tease you with a little information to get you to buy my course.[/b] There's no course. I'm not a coach. I'm not a guru. I'm a practitioner.

Thanks man for the discussion. Solid. I really appreciate your thoughts.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 26, 2017 01:40PM)
Cafécheckers, to add a few thoughts about choosing a mentor, and if I can I will use Robert for an example.

I have known Robert for a very long time and I have watched him grow into a true professional. He is the real deal. And I know this not because he told me he is, he doesn’t come on here to brag and tell us how great he is. I know he is the real deal from others in the fair market speaking highly of him. He goes out of his way to promote not just himself but ‘others’ in the fair market as well as the entire market. The highly ups in that market love him. But regardless of your own market, you can learn from Robert. Much about running a business and marketing in general can be applied to different markets.

I had the privilege of knowing one of the late greats when it comes to understanding the fair market and how it works. John Owens was a friend of my and what I understand he took Robert under his wing and showed him the ropes as they say.

So I trust Robert and his information not because he told me too, but because others have told me I could.

I say all this to point out that the best way to find a good guru/coach/consultant or whichever word you want to use to describe your teacher, is to not trust everything they tell you about themselves. Rather you should listen to what others have to say about that person and his work.

And it’s also important to notice how the potential teacher treats other people. There is an ole saying that has a lot of truth to it, “what you say about others tells me more about you than the others.”

Tom
Message: Posted by: Jay Jennings (Mar 26, 2017 07:15PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I see what you are getting at and on the surface it makes sense. BUT again does it not rob you of actually learning? Is being told something the same as "learning" it? [/quote]

That's what school is (and books, videos, etc.) -- someone tells you something you didn't know so you can learn it.

Learning from your own experiences and learning from the experiences of others are both valuable avenues -- not taking advantage of the latter sounds to me like it could be due to ego.

Jay
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 26, 2017 07:19PM)
Ever read "Zen in the Art of Archery"?

The entire book is predicated on the theory. So you must be saying that the heart of Zen is an ego problem. Got it.

You must know better than a thousands year old philosophy. Got it.

Just because you don't understand, doesn't automatically make it an ego issue. Ironically enough it might be an ego issue that causes this.

You should read the book and the next one. They are not that big, and are worthwhile.
Message: Posted by: Jay Jennings (Mar 26, 2017 07:48PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ever read "Zen in the Art of Archery"?

The entire book is predicated on the theory. So you must be saying that the heart of Zen is an ego problem. Got it.

You must know better than a thousands year old philosophy. Got it.

Just because you don't understand, doesn't automatically make it an ego issue. Ironically enough it might be an ego issue that causes this.

You should read the book and the next one. They are not that big, and are worthwhile. [/quote]

I posted an obvious opinion ("sounds to me") and even said I may not know the real reason ("could be").

I suspect more than one thousands year old philosophies could be shown to be flawed as time marches on and more knowledge is gained.

Jay

(But no, I never read the book -- although I now have a hold on it at the local college library.)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 26, 2017 08:05PM)
Don't bother to do research prior to throwing out an obvious attack.

I'm certain by the end of the week you will have all Zen philosophy disproven.
Message: Posted by: Jay Jennings (Mar 26, 2017 08:19PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Don't bother to do research prior to throwing out an obvious attack.

I'm certain by the end of the week you will have all Zen philosophy disproven. [/quote]

Dude, you are the Master of attacks. You asked a question and I gave my answer, then you jumped all over me.

If you KNEW the freaking answer, why did you ask? If you don't want opinions, don't ask questions.

Jay
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Mar 27, 2017 02:24PM)
A few points to illustrate here:
1. From Checkers, he had an idea of what he was receiving so the label doesn't matter. I beg to disagree, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, if we call a dog's tail a leg; how many legs does a dog have? --- 4 because calling a tail a leg doesn't change it to a leg. Labels facilitate understanding an communication, if we remove them then the system of human interaction breakdown.

2. While Robert Smith has chosen to offer his knowledge for free, others choose to charge. Neither is better than the other and I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging. What does matter is the why someone choses to hire a consultant/coach/etc. The reason is twofold: the expectation of the consultant is she saves time and/or money.

3. Human beings receive free advise from others all the time, many times unsolicited. The outcome is much of the advise goes unheeded, yet if we pay for the advise we are more likely to implement it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 27, 2017 02:52PM)
So well said.

Like Robert I have offered absolutely sound free advice consistently here for over a decade now and only made several of my releases, products and services offered here because they were asked for, repeatedly. Information has value, as well as can improve the recipient's value and worth when utilized. You are correct, advice and information is received and viewed much differently when being paid for.

Also information is subjective only to the current level of the recipient. While some here find Robert's free information quite helpful, it is likely because it is new info to them. To others that know this information or even greater info than he offers on the topic, its less appealing or beneficial. Does that make it bad info no, but it is based on the recipient.

Nothing wrong with free advice and info, but premium advice at a cost is what advance education is based upon.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 27, 2017 05:14PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2017, WDavis wrote:
1. From Checkers, he had an idea of what he was receiving so the label doesn't matter. I beg to disagree, to paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, if we call a dog's tail a leg; how many legs does a dog have? --- 4 because calling a tail a leg doesn't change it to a leg. Labels facilitate understanding an communication, if we remove them then the system of human interaction breakdown.. [/quote]

Is Pluto a planet? While this is an interesting discussion for scientists to quibble about and change their minds back and fourth, to the rest of us if we allow ourselves to freeze in our tracks, it is only our loss.

Not everything fits into neat nice buckets. Until new definitions are created, and accepted by the masses, we do often have to deal with what you refer to as "human interaction breakdown". Truth be told, it was never as built up as you present though.

Am I a magician? If not, please tell me what I am because I am dying to know. I do not believe I am, but that is what my customers keep referring to me as. I identify myself as a children's entertainer, but for the masses I am a magician. I am trying to change that, but it is a process. I wish things were as easy as your anology.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 27, 2017 05:29PM)
I guess in the end it comes to if you got benefit from it, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS CALLED, then money well spent.

You paid for a service, you feel that service was fulfilled and then some.

In reality it is not even for me to say anything. I pose a different point of view. I do NOT say what Lou does is bad, or what mindpro does is bad. I simply point out that there are many other ways to go about it.

Lou's course (On another thread.) seems to inspire people to action. THAT ALONE is good.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 27, 2017 10:01PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
So well said.

Like Robert I have offered absolutely sound free advice consistently here for over a decade now and only made several of my releases, products and services offered here because they were asked for, repeatedly. Information has value, as well as can improve the recipient's value and worth when utilized. You are correct, advice and information is received and viewed much differently when being paid for.

Also information is subjective only to the current level of the recipient. While some here find Robert's free information quite helpful, it is likely because it is new info to them. To others that know this information or even greater info than he offers on the topic, its less appealing or beneficial. Does that make it bad info no, but it is based on the recipient.

Nothing wrong with free advice and info, but premium advice at a cost is what advance education is based upon. [/quote]

"Nothing wrong with free advice...but..."

I always appreciate your feedback even if I don't necessarily agree with it. The beauty of being in business for myself and now developing my personal brand is the market decides whether I stay or go. Not you. Not me. The market.

If you want to tout your knowledge, but only for a price, go for it.
There's no difference between you charging a price for your information and a magic creator charging a price for their trick.

And just like with magic, there's tricks that are amazing and tricks that suck.

Just make sure you're not selling cheap plastic cups and balls while touting them as Sherwood Cups.
There's a difference and the market will sniff you out and expose you.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 27, 2017 10:20PM)
[quote]On Mar 27, 2017, WDavis wrote:
A few points to illustrate here:

2. While Robert Smith has chosen to offer his knowledge for free, others choose to charge. Neither is better than the other and I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging. What does matter is the why someone choses to hire a consultant/coach/etc. The reason is twofold: the expectation of the consultant is she saves time and/or money. [/quote]

Nope. Go read what I wrote again.

I cleary stated I'm not against the idea of coaches provided I could verify the veracity of their claims. In other words, they have to be credible. For instance, if someone sold a "Quit Smoking" course or a weight loss course but they themselves were over weight or smokers, you wouldn't find them very credible, would you?

Just like when a "busy kids magician" sells a course but you know they've only done a couple dozen kids shows, you might not find them credible.

That's my point.

Nothing I'm saying here or on my vlog is new. I'm relaying my personal experience. It's all out there.
Just like nothig Mindpro is charging for is new or breakthrough. But it's super easy to tout yourself anonymously where there's no risk of beig exposed.

I'm not against paying for information. But I want it from a credible source.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Mar 28, 2017 09:35PM)
CaféCheckers,
while my personal choice from childhood education wants to call Pluto a planet, I have to hold to the scientific labeling that it is not. You are correct that the masses determine the word use. Which is my point. Lexicon is for the most part consistent across the majority of english speakers. Proof - we are communicating currently. But, when one doesn't know the correct terms, doesn't care to use the proper terms, and proceeds to mislabel and misuse said terms among those whom both know and don't know the correct terminology confusion amounts. proof - 4 pages on a forum with most arguing the terminology used to describe the differences between a coach, consultant, mentor, guru, or what ever.

You (possibly your brother, the other Checkers) mentioned a desire to become professional and increase in business acumen. The first step towards professional credibility with business acumen is using the correct business language. It doesn't matter how well one can perform, regardless of the task, if the individual cannot communicate with the appropriate business terms, her credibility is diminished.

Furthermore, you stated you aren't sure of what you are labeled as. The markets in which you operate have in their lexicon labeled you as a magician and you wish you to change that label. If you really want to "rebrand yourself" to your markets there are alignment matters you will need to address. You should talk with your consultant, MindPro, on addressing that concern. (hint: review your product offering and STP framework)

RobertSmith, I am not understanding the condescending nature of your words towards me. I'm presuming so from your imperative command of "Nope. Go read what I wrote again." This implies I didn't understand what you wrote. I assure you I did. I was referring to your commentary:

[quote]RobertSmith:
The information IS out there now. The internet is at scale. So if folks want to spend $497 for a "course." Or $34.95/mo to have a 1 hour consult every month, go for it. You do you.

I'll keep sharing my information. For free. [b]There will NEVER be a time when I tease you with a little information to get you to buy my course.[/b] There's no course. I'm not a coach. I'm not a guru. I'm a practitioner.

Thanks man for the discussion. Solid. I really appreciate your thoughts. [/quote]

Rereading my comment, "...I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging", I can see how the confusion arose. Please understand, I never intended that you were against others charging, but that you personally are against charging. I can understand the confusion, and I apologize for the that.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Mar 28, 2017 10:29PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2017, WDavis wrote:
CaféCheckers,
while my personal choice from childhood education wants to call Pluto a planet, I have to hold to the scientific labeling that it is not. You are correct that the masses determine the word use. Which is my point. Lexicon is for the most part consistent across the majority of english speakers. Proof - we are communicating currently. But, when one doesn't know the correct terms, doesn't care to use the proper terms, and proceeds to mislabel and misuse said terms among those whom both know and don't know the correct terminology confusion amounts. proof - 4 pages on a forum with most arguing the terminology used to describe the differences between a coach, consultant, mentor, guru, or what ever.

You (possibly your brother, the other Checkers) mentioned a desire to become professional and increase in business acumen. The first step towards professional credibility with business acumen is using the correct business language. It doesn't matter how well one can perform, regardless of the task, if the individual cannot communicate with the appropriate business terms, her credibility is diminished.

Furthermore, you stated you aren't sure of what you are labeled as. The markets in which you operate have in their lexicon labeled you as a magician and you wish you to change that label. If you really want to "rebrand yourself" to your markets there are alignment matters you will need to address. You should talk with your consultant, MindPro, on addressing that concern. (hint: review your product offering and STP framework)

RobertSmith, I am not understanding the condescending nature of your words towards me. I'm presuming so from your imperative command of "Nope. Go read what I wrote again." This implies I didn't understand what you wrote. I assure you I did. I was referring to your commentary:

[quote]RobertSmith:
The information IS out there now. The internet is at scale. So if folks want to spend $497 for a "course." Or $34.95/mo to have a 1 hour consult every month, go for it. You do you.

I'll keep sharing my information. For free. [b]There will NEVER be a time when I tease you with a little information to get you to buy my course.[/b] There's no course. I'm not a coach. I'm not a guru. I'm a practitioner.

Thanks man for the discussion. Solid. I really appreciate your thoughts. [/quote]

Rereading my comment, "...I interpret the discourse as a firm stance by Robert against charging", I can see how the confusion arose. Please understand, I never intended that you were against others charging, but that you personally are against charging. I can understand the confusion, and I apologize for the that. [/quote]


First, no condescension intended. And second, I totally see the way you meant that now. Lost in translation. We're good. Thanks for clarifying.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 29, 2017 05:22PM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2017, WDavis wrote:
CaféCheckers,
while my personal choice from childhood education wants to call Pluto a planet, I have to hold to the scientific labeling that it is not. You are correct that the masses determine the word use. Which is my point. Lexicon is for the most part consistent across the majority of english speakers. Proof - we are communicating currently. But, when one doesn't know the correct terms, doesn't care to use the proper terms, and proceeds to mislabel and misuse said terms among those whom both know and don't know the correct terminology confusion amounts. proof - 4 pages on a forum with most arguing the terminology used to describe the differences between a coach, consultant, mentor, guru, or what ever.[/quote]

The reason for confusion in terminology in this thread is due to the fact that often services provided cross over the strictest definition of the terms being shared, and to date we (society) have decided to accept that "confusion" rather than create the infinite number of terms to accommodate the possible combinations of potential services offered. One simply uses the term that most closely matches with the commonly accepted term that best defines what they offer.

The reason why I do not have a term to exactly describe my service, is not because I do not know what it is called, it is because the term does not exist.

Creating term after term to describe every nuance in every subject matter adds it's own level of confusion to our language and communication. We just have to decide which type of confusion we are more willing to live with.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 18, 2017 11:56AM)
The recent thread on "lessons from sports" touched upon something that relates to this thread. That is, does one look at their entertainment business as a individual or team approach? This may influence ones view of deploying a coach into their strategy- I am not sure. My brother and I always viewed it as a team, not because we were partners, but because we saw it as way to grow more rapidly. Coaching, sponsors, loan organizations, builders, marketers. Getting others to believe in our vision and play a part in the overall success. My brother just received a prestigious fellowship award through a foundation whose purpose is to spur economic growth in our area. They offer both financial and business assistance- through internship and partnership support. The fact that he had a coach was likely a strong contributing factor to others belief in the endeavor. Specifically, Mindpro- was able to provide validity and social proof. His professionalism alone spoke loudly on my brothers behalf. Relying on others has been a most critical part of our strategy.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Apr 18, 2017 02:30PM)
Charlie,

In underwriting, if using the P's framework, you touched on the people criteria. Do the people involved have the skills knowledge and experience to support the endevour. If they don't have it directly is there a plan to acquire said needs. This is where coaches, boards, etc fit into the equation. And with both of you young and green in business matters, the coaching from Mindoro definitely added credibility and the fact you hired him demonstrated a desire to put some skin in the game to make a real go at it. Cash is a fact everything else is an opinion.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 18, 2017 06:12PM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2017, WDavis wrote:
Cash is a fact everything else is an opinion. [/quote]

Exactly. As I've said before there is a huge difference in opinions and actual facts.

I am extremely proud of Cafécheckers on his great accomplishment. I am also proud of any role I had in helping to make this happen for him. His commitment and progress to my coaching program played a role in his success for this, as it combined with many of his ideas and what we have been working on each week, and his commitment to his education and business has lead to his community being very supportive of him and his efforts, and now the business and financial communities are also becoming involved and on board.

So I think this is a great example of the original statements and questions being posed here about coaching and the value of coaching, even through it seems many (who have never had a business coach) still want to muddy the waters about having a coach or the value of a coaching program. Between this prestigious award and scholarship, increased bookings and pricing with a single nugget of information, he has seen his bottom line improve thousands of dollars in such a short time of working together. And I must say, he has only just begun to scratch the surface of what we've been working on. I believe this is an exciting return on investment.

Now I must say not all coaches are the same. The recent trend of gurus becoming coaches has created a vast wave of ineffective and unqualified "coaches", so in the context of this thread, I think that makes a huge difference. Someone with proven and legitimate experience in ALL of the areas being sought of an industry, is much different from an internet "coach" preaching based on only their own limited experience in usually a single area. Again all coaching is not the same. Many who I coach have been a part of others well known courses or "coaching" to tell me they learned more in the first few sessions or weeks than they did from entire high-priced programs. There are in reality only a small amount of coaches that truly offer the goods as promised. Even less in entertainment business. The key is finding the right qualified coach to meet your needs, expectations and with the information and experience to move you to towards your progress and goals.

I have yet to find anyone else that offers what I do, and is as results driven for students to succeed. Thanks for the kind words but even more thanks to Cafécheckers for accepting the information, having an open mind and being open to education and understanding, and of course taking action to implement the content being offered. He deserves all of the success he is having and that is ahead of him. He should be so excited he's probably ready to burst.

Someone said here or perhaps in another thread (I think it was rthomas) that magicians tend to think they can do it all themselves. Very few truly can. Successful people tend to surround themselves with other successful people. Often specialists in a specific area. I have always been a proponent of remaining very hands on myself in an overseeing capacity while creating a team to support and drive the success I have created. Like charliecheckers I believe we can accomplish much more in a more immediate time period with a team of the right players. The key is finding the right team members.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 19, 2017 05:11PM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2017, WDavis wrote:
In underwriting, if using the P's framework, you touched on the people criteria. Do the people involved have the skills knowledge and experience to support the endevour. If they don't have it directly is there a plan to acquire said needs. This is where coaches, boards, etc fit into the equation. And with both of you young and green in business matters, the coaching from Mindoro definitely added credibility and the fact you hired him demonstrated a desire to put some skin in the game to make a real go at it. Cash is a fact everything else is an opinion. [/quote]

Everything you share above is so true. I must say though, it was an unintended benefit to me, in that I never considered such things when I first approached Mindpro for coaching services. I have learned this over the past few months - which makes me so glad that I chose to pursue Mindpro's assistance when I did (last fall). My original plan was to wait until the summer of 2019 to seek his help because it would coincide with my going full time, as I currently spend a lot of money on my college education. Something inside me said not to wait, because such opportunities are very rare and I believed I could not take such services for granted. My brother had a strong sense of what Mindpro could provide, but believed I needed to wait until I could devote all my time to my business. The 4 week trial offer Mindpro offered was the perfect time to explore a potential relationship, so I went for it - and never looked back. Now, I realize just how valuable this was from the perspective of others.

Mindpro shares some of the qualities a coach should offer, but I will share a bit from my perspective: Since joining TMC, my brother observed that Mindpro had a unique quality of being able to offer wisdom and advice that was particular to the goals and desires of the individual asking. Often when one asked for assistance on something- like a website design- Mindpro would ask qualifying questions as to the intent, not just offer an opinion based on websites he created for his needs. This takes not only a broad range of knowledge and experience, but also application skills few have. Not all great players are great coaches, or even have an inclination or desire to do so. What came as a complete surprise to me though, was his patience, listening skills, genuine interest, dedication, and flexibility. He allows me to be myself, which includes making mistakes.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 19, 2017 06:25PM)
This question may be a bit personal.. but what are you doing to further you performance? You are going to college (for?) and you have hired a personal business coach... great. And your show? When you "go full time" you will just magically have a show that matches the business knowledge?

This is the Business side of the forum, but it's important that we remember the performance must be amazing and truly professional.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 19, 2017 11:10PM)
ThomasR- very fair question, and actually great conversation.

My brother and I have been active participants here for the past six years, learning every aspect of performing and running our business, which is full time in the summer months and part time throughout the year. My brother is 4 years ahead of me, so he was the lead throughout most of that time. We slowly transitioned the performing over to me in the last three years, as he is now a second year medical student and only performs occasionally.

We had a very well developed idea of what Mindpro's experience and skill sets were by reading the volumes of posts he has shared here during our tenure. We new for instance, he owned an agency that books kids performers and that he himself has performed in the types of venues we aspired to. Therefore we knew he would be able to align my talent, experience and skill set to a business model that matched up well. There is no magic bullet. I do not expect to know everything about performing or business at that time.

To directly answer your questions-
I am going to school for a bachelers degree in Entrepreneurialism.
Improving my performance- Mindpro offers advice on my performing as well. In fact, I sent him my most recent performance earlier today for feedback on every aspect of the look, style and content. As with any performing art- talent creating and performing the show will play a critical role in how high one can climb. I have a ton to learn in both components of show business. I am just starting out.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 20, 2017 05:00PM)
Thanks for answering so clearly and openly. That's good that the performance critique / evaluation is part of the coaching.

You know... the original question was about a business coach (or whatever we all decided the correct term was..) but how many of us have used other types of coaches?
Dance Coach, Acting Coach, Vocal Coach, Juggling or Acro Coach (if it applies).... that's a whole different type of coaching.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 20, 2017 07:04PM)
Here I only really discuss my EBS entertainment business coaching, consulting and training as to keep it on topic, but in reality I also have several other areas in which I offer structured coaching, consulting and training as well including performance/entertainer.

Also my entertainment business coaching encompasses performance training as it pertains to business operations, market specialization, positioning and branding. Waaaay to many performers create a performance first, THEN try to find someone to book it or sell it to. In reality when approaching your performance from a business and profitability perspective and foundation, a performance should be created congruent to your business model, operation and for the specific target markets you are seeking. So in this capacity performance coaching is part of my entertainment business coaching, training and consulting.

For those that want only performance coaching, consulting or training I do offer this and also offer several other specialized areas of entertainment business coaching, consulting and training in the areas of Fundraising, Speaking, Press & Media For Entertainers, Stage Hypnosis and Agent & Agency coaching, consulting and training. These are all specific areas of entertainment business & performance operations.

Hopefully this better clarifies the information you are seeking.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 20, 2017 07:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
Waaaay to many performers create a performance first, THEN try to find someone to book it or sell it to. In reality when approaching your performance from a business and profitability perspective and foundation, a performance should be created congruent to your business model, operation and for the specific target markets you are seeking. So in this capacity performance coaching is part of my entertainment business coaching, training and consulting.
[/quote]

While this statement is true, it seems wrong to me on so many artistic levels.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 20, 2017 08:00PM)
ThomasR- You raised a very interesting additional component to the topic - that is performance coaching. I think this will play a larger role with performers to do well in today's increasingly competitive environment. Just innate talent of average performers may not be able to compete with all the options one has for entertainment. We all know performers who are better at getting booked than providing a quality show. Getting honest feedback and speaking candidly with experts about our performance abilities then allows us to better define focus areas of improvement, as well as personal limitations we must accept. Working a business model congruent with current capabilities is something Mindpro has reinforced while working with me.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 20, 2017 09:45PM)
I must say kudos to Cafécheckers for not only speaking about his coaching experience but being so candid and sharing so freely. Knowing him, I know it is for the purpose of helping and allowing others to understand, while shinning a proper light on this topic. Not in theory or perception, but in reality - facts if you will. I have coached many through the last three decades, and I never tell them they can't discuss it on forums or in communities, I always leave it up to them. Most prefer not to for it to be known they a have sought assistance. Others don't want others to know what they are paying their hard earned money to learn. There are also a variety of other good reasons not to prefer to discuss it or have it known.

Many guys here are always asking for some sort of "proof" (only to allow themselves to feel better) which I always have felt is something that doesn't need to be offered. If you can't tell from the info offered, then you are choosing not to. Just as the checkers brothers have read the very same info I have shared here for years - the same info anyone else here can or has read, and were able to see the truth and realities, if other haven't that is there problem.

I hope other here can appreciate and see the effort he is making by sharing his experiences here.


Btw, thomasR, I think coaching allows and opens the platform for much greater artistic efforts as it is simply done so within a framework or structure, yet without compromising artistic freedoms. In my experience it opens up many creative possibilities (as in Cafécheckers situations) and helps bring them to life much more fluently.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 20, 2017 09:51PM)
Not to nit pick but it needs to be said not all coaches are created equal.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 20, 2017 09:57PM)
Yes, I also said this on my first post on this page. I agree.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 21, 2017 07:22AM)
[quote]On Apr 20, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Not to nit pick but it needs to be said not all coaches are created equal. [/quote]
This is so very true. Like entertainers, coaches in the field are all self proclaimed, and likely have no official training. As such, they can only perceive the value of their services from their own perspective of what good is and how broad their expertise applies. They are generally their own reference point of what success and failure is.

Like all threads I read, I have paid close attention to what you have offered on this topic Danny. Specifically, the point of the value of failure and the concern that receiving coaching can potentially rob someone of the lessons that failure teaches. One who coaches in a prescriptive and controlling manner can unintentionally do just that.

Regarding speaking out on coaching here, I will admit I had mixed feelings. Mindpro is a purist in everything he does. When I work with him I have his undevided attention. Frankly, I have a vested interest in not spreading the word. Unlike other coaching arrangements people have or seek, Mindpro offers no discount or incentive to students to spread the word or endorse his services. That was never the intent of this thread. Recently there has been a return to vibrancy in the topics being discussed in Tricky Business with content that was of the quality when we first joined. This was a topic I had recent personal experience in and thought would lead to discussing something most performers never consider.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 21, 2017 09:34AM)
I have a question regarding hiring a performance coach, and maybe this is just a guess. I’ve never had a performance coach, but wouldn’t you want someone with a proven track record in performing? Someone you have watched perform many times?

Anyone can talk a good game in business and make suggestions based on mostly education, but unless you are indeed a magician it’s very hard to grasp how a magic performance works.

Not saying Mindpro is not a magician, (lol) just curious if the checker brothers or anyone else here for that matter, has actually seen him perform. Sure he can tell us how good he is, and I don’t mean that in a bad way, just curious if people here would hire a performance coach without having seen him perform. I know the others here that offer coaching does post clips of their shows, and invites them to their shows, etc, so I find the situation with Mindpros very odd.

So that’s my question, and isn’t that a fair question to ask, would you consider hiring a performance coach without actually seeing his work?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 21, 2017 10:10AM)
There you go again!

It's got to be a comprehension problem, that's the only explanation. First, he never hired a performance coach! While it can be part of his business coaching, he didn't hire a performance coach. Secondly, I've performed for 42 years, just because you haven't seen my performance doesn't mean I haven't performed. Just because you haven't booked thought my agencies doesn't mean they don't exist. You're just looking for more nonsense to start. You don't get on Orpah multiple times, MTV, Farm Aid (78,000 people), tour nationally for 29 years and other venues if you can't perform. This "prove-to-me" mentality of yours absolutely amazes me. It's got to be a comprehension thing or more so a flaming thing.

Those that came to my Las Vegas training event and speaking presentation saw a medley of my performance, t.v. performance and credits, just because you weren't there didn't mean it doesn't exist. They also saw me in person and my real name and history. Just because you weren't there or haven't seen it doesn't mean it didn't exist.

I've never seen your daycare center, but I would never doubt you had it. This is crazy.

He does see my work, repeatedly here over and over again for years. Do you not comprehend his posts either, It was based on my vast amount of information offered here in volumes that he made his decision. Also you are just assuming he hasn't seen me perform. I have regularly talked about how each year I take 3-4 of my students on tour with me to see the entire operation in action. You read the same posts here as others, yet don't seem to want to understand.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 10:13AM)
It is a very fair question but ironic that you ask it

It is funny how you only ask it in relation to Mindpro. You support EVERY new wanna be guru on this board no matter WHAT his performance is like. You cheer everything no matter what, if it isn't Mindoro. Pretty pathetic and sad really.

You NEVER want credentials, you never want to see performance just if someone says something you call it great no matter what, just so it isn't Mindpro.

So are you saying that this is the new standard we will apply to everyone?

Plus Tom nobody has to prove anything to you. You are not the end user. You don't even perform and I keep wondering why you post here at all. It is possible that as they got to know each other things we are not privy to happened.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 21, 2017 10:20AM)
Whats also very odd is how he regularly accepts, supports and defends others here that have been busted on being phonies, puffery and many other offenses only to have problem with actual working professionals. This sounds quite intentional to me.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 21, 2017 10:26AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is possible that as they got to know each other things we are not privy to happened. [/quote]

Of course and I would say this of every coaching student and consulting client. Trust me, there is much more than offered or discussed here. I'm pretty sure this is exactly why Cafécheckers was hesitant to post such personal details here. Just this exact reason, the same reasons that prevents others form participating here.

As Cafécheckers said above, finally some vibrant and decent topics and participation here, yet look who and what derails it...
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 21, 2017 10:47AM)
It's only being derailed if you let it.... You guys are adults and can ignore Tom if you want to. You both are as much to blame as Tom is in my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 10:59AM)
I don't think there is any fault in a discussion. It is just that, a discussion.

To re frame it is useless.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 21, 2017 11:03AM)
Thanks thomasR

Honestly I thought it was a fair question to ask. But as always they use me to avoid answering the real questions.
Masters of deceptions for sure.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 11:09AM)
Name calling on the other hand is a fault.

If it is such a problem Tom why post at all? You are not a magician.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 21, 2017 11:10AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I have a question regarding hiring a performance coach, and maybe this is just a guess. I’ve never had a performance coach, but wouldn’t you want someone with a proven track record in performing? Someone you have watched perform many times? [/quote]
Fair question - to add what others have shared though - No - I do not agree that one need see a performance to coach. I never saw Bill Belichick play football but would hire him in an instant. Mindpro has shared an enormous amount of content that assured me of his credentials. He has given detailed analysis of what he likes and does not like related to videos and material provided here and that which he receives through his agencies. He has shared specifics about how to open a show and details on introductions etc. He has detailed specifics on sound quality, mood and tone of performance. Personally, I could care less if he himself is a strong performer, as I have never paid to see his show. I do not even recall him sharing his opinion here on his personal performance, so it had/has nothing to do with my hiring decision.


[quote]
Anyone can talk a good game in business and make suggestions based on mostly education, but unless you are indeed a magician it’s very hard to grasp how a magic performance works. [/quote]

I disagree with this assessment. Some have tried to do so here over the years. They never last, as they expose themselves early and often.
[quote]
So that’s my question, and isn’t that a fair question to ask, would you consider hiring a performance coach without actually seeing his work? [/quote]
Perhaps the term "Doubting Thomas" comes into play here. Everyone can make decisions as they see fit. Entrepreneurs are generally successful based upon many factors, one being able to take smart risks. Smart risk does not equal no risk. Taking no risk is incompatible with entrepreneurship. My direct answer to your question is: Yes.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 11:27AM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

Anyone can talk a good game in business and make suggestions based on mostly education, but unless you are indeed a magician it’s very hard to grasp how a magic performance works.
Tom [/quote]

And by the way the irony just drips from this part of your post.

Just because this is how YOU choose to act, only without the education part, does not mean the rest of the world functions like this.

It is not easy to talk a good game because invariably people with experience call you out. Happens to you almost constantly here.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 21, 2017 12:49PM)
Danny, call me out on WHAT, I only asked a simple question. I’m not the one here promoting a coaching service. This has nothing to do with my performance.

Cafécheckers, thanks for an honest answer that you don’t need to see the work. Not sure I agree with the Belichick example oh. A famous TV personality is not a good comparison to a magic coach. You right sometimes you have to take risks, this is simply not one I would take. I just personally don’t think that way, but that’s just me. Thanks.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 01:08PM)
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Apr 21, 2017 01:12PM)
I agree with Café Checkers that performance experience is not a prerequisite for effective coaching.

Many examples of highly effective business consultants and professors that have never held a job in the businesses they consulted in. To go back to the sports analogies - many professional sports coaches never played professional sports.

Coaching and performing are two different skill sets.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 02:37PM)
It is very common in MMA to coach without having competed.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 21, 2017 02:51PM)
Thanks Hudson

I agree that many professional sports coaches never played professional sports, but they probably weren’t hired off the internet either. Their record is an open book. And that is why I say it may not be a fair comparison to hiring a magic performance coach.

Oh if the price is no more than purchasing a magic book I say go for it, you don’t have much to lose, but if you’re investing real money on your future, I say you better know the person you dealing with, know where they live, what they look like, and anything else you can find out about them. (An honestly I can't see any reasonable person disagreeing with that.)

Again that’s just me, just my opinion, and I have no problem with anyone that does disagree.

Thanks
Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 02:59PM)
Well you are not the target demographic so it really doesn't matter.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 21, 2017 02:59PM)
Sure you do or you wouldn't keep babbling on about it. We get it, you've made your point. It's just your opinion. Why do you keep on sorry it unless for another purpose? You made your opinion pages ago.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 21, 2017 08:20PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
, but if you’re investing real money on your future, I say you better know the person you dealing with, know where they live, what they look like, and anything else you can find out about them. (An honestly I can't see any reasonable person disagreeing with that.
Tom [/quote]
I think this speaks to the scarcity principle. You are making an assumption that this type of coaching is readily available to all of us. You are also minimizing the value of the relationships that one can develop here. Seeking a coach is not only a matter of getting to know the coach, but the coach getting to know the student. Much of this took place over the past six years of engagement here via this section and various PM's back and fourth. Furthermore, I own several of Mindpro's ebook offerings.

This should not turn into a narrow discussion of "why I chose Mindpro" topic, - but the broader concepts of maximizing on line relationship potential, making wise choices when faced with no perfect solution, and investing in ones future are things that can separate achievers and things I am proud I have done.
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Apr 21, 2017 08:42PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
If it is such a problem Tom why post at all? You are not a magician. [/quote]

Just sticking my head in for a lighthearted moment to rerun this criteria. Is it safe to apply that to others in this same discussion? :lol:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 21, 2017 08:44PM)
As in?
Message: Posted by: G. Batson (Apr 23, 2017 04:31PM)
Keith, are you asking if hypnotists are magicians?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 23, 2017 04:48PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Plus Tom nobody has to prove anything to you. You are not the end user. You don't even perform and I keep wondering why you post here at all. It is possible that as they got to know each other things we are not privy to happened. [/quote]

Speaking of.

How are your hypnosis shows going, Danny? Where in Vegas are you performing these days? Would love to come see you work.

Robert
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 23, 2017 09:02PM)
So the mark of success is a show in Las Vegas? In which case I have failed... or have I? http://m.lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2015/sep/22/two-knockout-las-vegas-shows-purple-reign-intoxica/

Your turn. Where in Vegas is your show? Where are all the reviews? I'd sure love to come and see you.

My hypnosis show is about 150 times a year in the Caribbean. It actually goes quite well. Come see if you can.

How many fairs are you at exactly this year?

Still speaking of our do I pass your little test?

Certainty you are not trying to imply because we produce 1,500 plus shows a year in 4 different countries somehow I am not a performer? Let me guess that wasn't your point.

Ask Bob Sheets, or Peter Samelson, or Bannachek or any of the people who work with us how the shows go.

So what exactly was the point in trying to attack me in this fashion?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2017 09:57PM)
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
As in? [/quote]



As in, If it is such a problem Danny, why post at all.

Danny, you do understand that it is a tiny percent of the people on the Café that actually does magic shows?
Did you know that? And are you upset that they all can post here? Even mindpro has said many times that he is not
a magician.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 23, 2017 10:07PM)
No Tom. Posting is not the problem. You putting out bad information as the world's foremost authority is the problem and you know it. You know exactly what my objections are so please do not twist my words.

I am not upset you post here at all. You are the one upset when it is pointed out that you are wrong.

You know this so please stop the transparent attempt to switch things ok?

So if that is the case Tom why do you keep asking for credentials and having stuff proven to you? Why did Robert just do it?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Apr 23, 2017 10:15PM)
What bad information have I posted?
Could you list all the horrible advice I have given?
You never here anyone complaining.

Danny, 90 percent of my posts is beating you off my back.
I say 'good morning' you say, 'what's good about it?'
I say the word magic you say, what do you know about magic?

And who did I ask for credentials?


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 23, 2017 10:25PM)
Tom there are countless examples of you making your snarky comments and then getting angry someone comes at you. Then you "defend "yourself.

So why don't you just stop that? Most of your issues go away.

Also your advice on business is almost always wrong and would be very expensive to put into practice. But there is a lot of that going on around here lately. But hey at least it is free right?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 24, 2017 07:34AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
So the mark of success is a show in Las Vegas? In which case I have failed... or have I? http://m.lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2015/sep/22/two-knockout-las-vegas-shows-purple-reign-intoxica/

Your turn. Where in Vegas is your show? Where are all the reviews? I'd sure love to come and see you.

My hypnosis show is about 150 times a year in the Caribbean. It actually goes quite well. Come see if you can.

How many fairs are you at exactly this year?

Still speaking of our do I pass your little test?

Certainty you are not trying to imply because we produce 1,500 plus shows a year in 4 different countries somehow I am not a performer? Let me guess that wasn't your point.

Ask Bob Sheets, or Peter Samelson, or Bannachek or any of the people who work with us how the shows go.

So what exactly was the point in trying to attack me in this fashion? [/quote]

Jesus you're insecure.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 24, 2017 07:54AM)
Oh wait now just answering a question becomes insecure?

How about we drop that nonsense. YOU came and questioned me about it wanting proof. I provided it. Now since I have asked you it would be courtesy for you to do the same.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 24, 2017 08:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh wait now just answering a question becomes insecure?

How about we drop that nonsense. YOU came and questioned me about it wanting proof. I provided it. Now since I have asked you it would be courtesy for you to do the same. [/quote]

Nah. Answering doesn't make you insecure. Assuming I was attacking you does. Makes you look paranoid to boot.

I know you've got your contracts with the resorts in Mexico and you've expanded them. I worked there once, remember? So why would I attack you for that?

Not everyone is out to get you Danny.

Fairs? Conjurer is on pace to clear 6 figures in the fair market alone this year. That doesn't count corporate work or any of our company's other attractions. Thanks for asking. I'm sure you were just curious. You know, testing the veracity of my comments and advice I give. I appreciate that.

Robert
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 24, 2017 09:11AM)
That wasn't my question. It was vague.

How many fairs are you at this year? Oh and is that before or after expenses?

Also if it WASN'T an attack why did you follow it up with ANOTHER attack by saying I was "insecure"? Why not follow with "wow congrats I had no idea, cool"?

No you don't do that, you follow it with another attack, then claim the first wasn't an attack.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 24, 2017 09:44AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
That wasn't my question. It was vague.

How many fairs are you at this year? Oh and is that before or after expenses?

Also if it WASN'T an attack why did you follow it up with ANOTHER attack by saying I was "insecure"? Why not follow with "wow congrats I had no idea, cool"?

No you don't do that, you follow it with another attack, then claim the first wasn't an attack. [/quote]

Maybe because when you get punched in the mouth for no reason the first instinct isn't to high five the guy who just hit you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 24, 2017 09:51AM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Plus Tom nobody has to prove anything to you. You are not the end user. You don't even perform and I keep wondering why you post here at all. It is possible that as they got to know each other things we are not privy to happened. [/quote]

Speaking of.

How are your hypnosis shows going, Danny? Where in Vegas are you performing these days? Would love to come see you work.

Robert [/quote]

Here you are Robert jumping right in with this. Maybe it is just your timing that is off.

So we apply your standard in the above post to this. How about that?
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Apr 24, 2017 10:44AM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Apr 23, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Apr 21, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Plus Tom nobody has to prove anything to you. You are not the end user. You don't even perform and I keep wondering why you post here at all. It is possible that as they got to know each other things we are not privy to happened. [/quote]

Speaking of.

How are your hypnosis shows going, Danny? Where in Vegas are you performing these days? Would love to come see you work.

Robert [/quote]

Here you are Robert jumping right in with this. Maybe it is just your timing that is off.

So we apply your standard in the above post to this. How about that? [/quote]

Already told you privately I can understand where you misunderstood and apologized for it.

Apply any standards you want, Danny. This is stupid.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 24, 2017 04:10PM)
[quote]On Apr 23, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
So the mark of success is a show in Las Vegas? In which case I have failed... or have I? http://m.lasvegassun.com/vegasdeluxe/2015/sep/22/two-knockout-las-vegas-shows-purple-reign-intoxica/ [/quote]

Reading the article reminded me of a magician who performed at the Forks Hotel in Buffalo. My dad tells the story that he (I don't recall the magicians name) produced a giant nut (not sure how large, because every time he tells the story the nut gets larger and heavier) under a metal bowl. One time my dad saw him produce it and place it on the table top with force (in a way that emphasized its authenticity) he did not realize the table had a sheet of glass over it and shattered the large glass platform. Anyway, your show sounds interesting, as I never got to see that style of close up magic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 24, 2017 04:24PM)
Eddie Fecter ran the bar in the Forks Hotel. It may not have been him though. Another landmark.

This style of close up magic is not often seen you are right.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 24, 2017 05:17PM)
[quote]On Apr 24, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
This style of close up magic is not often seen you are right. [/quote]


You mean it's specialized industry knowledge? C'mon you can find everything on google, remember?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 24, 2017 05:20PM)
No sarcasm needed.
Message: Posted by: NRmind (Apr 25, 2017 07:23PM)
How advanced does one have to be to retain coaching services? (Ballpark estimation)

I imagine the information would be too much overload for a beginner, correct? Or no?

Should you have done 100 paid gigs? 200? Etc?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 25, 2017 07:47PM)
I should imagine it depends upon the coach and the student.

Many students who are decades down the road make the same bad decisions. They will be stuck because of mindset.

A beginner with the right mindset and lack of preconceived notions could do quite well.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 26, 2017 11:12AM)
[quote]On Apr 25, 2017, NRmind wrote:
How advanced does one have to be to retain coaching services? (Ballpark estimation)

I imagine the information would be too much overload for a beginner, correct? Or no?

Should you have done 100 paid gigs? 200? Etc? [/quote]


This truly depends on the coach, their approach and what is being offered. More and more performers are starting to realize and utilize my coaching services (I can only speak for myself) from the beginning or very early on once deciding to perform for pay. Many are starting to realize that forming the right approach and foundation from the beginning or very early stages is far better than trying to do it yourself without direction, understanding or structure, only to eventually have to go back and correct their errors, bad habits and missteps already created in an attempt to do it on their own. It is different for each person.

I have found people come to coaching in one of 4 areas or levels, and for one (or more) of 12 different reasons. For beginners it really is simply a matter of do they want to try to figure it out on their own or seek assistance, guidance and specialized education during this process? For example I have my GSIEB training which is for those new, newer or just starting out, and then my EBS training that others here more recently have been referring to. Many things come into play such as what level you are currently at, your interest and goals, what you are pursuing, what you are trying to achieve, the type of performer you are or are trying to become, etc. Many factors to consider and come into play.

My own preference is someone who hasn't yet had a chance to develop poor habits with their approach, yet has had some performing experience, even if only attempted performing experience as a starting point or point of reference. I've also had a student from Germany, whose father contacted me the moment his son decided he wanted to be a live performer, only recently having had made that decision with his parents. The parents felt it was best in the name of time, progress and completeness, to start with a mentor, coach and trainer from the very beginning. So I was offered to work with him to take his first steps beginning with an introduction to his performing discipline of interest. Literally from the beginning, as he only only ever seen this type of performer on television, never even live. Others have some level of their own experience and seek assistance to take their performing business to the next (or different) levels. So again, it is a matter of preference.

Most coaches only operate in one area or topic of coaching, and then usually from their own perspective. As stated earlier, not all coaches are equal. Most of what I post about and discuss here is for performers on varying levels. However, outside of here The Magic Café and the larger entertainment community) I also have a separate skew of my coaching, consulting and training business that is not targeted to performers, but to a more general target showing how live entertainment and entertainment owned and operated business can be a very viable home-based business or part-time income offering many benefits and advantages over other conventional opportunities home-based business opportunities, often with much greater earning potential, less than normal start-up and operational costs, and greater profitability. I have always truly believed entertainment is the ideal small business opportunity, even if one is not a performer themselves. So I have for 30 years also introduced the concept of live entertainment as a job, career or business opportunity to tends of thousands worldwide at career fairs, high schools, colleges and entrepreneur events. I don't talk about it much here because it is a consumer level market branch of my business, but the point for bringing this into this post is to demonstrate that I have for years worked with many that have absolutely no experience or even knowledge and have just learned about the possibilities of entertainment as a business opportunity.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 26, 2017 01:45PM)
Breaking the bad habits of a student is the toughest job of any coach.
Message: Posted by: NRmind (Apr 26, 2017 02:29PM)
Thank you SO much for the insightful answers. I really want to consider coaching as I've done it in the past regarding "the day job" and I did find it very helpful. Ironically that coach told me he thought I should pursue turning magic into more than just a hobby as it tapped into more of my "strengths" than finance did. Lol.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 26, 2017 02:42PM)
Using some of that business knowledge will help that effort.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Apr 28, 2017 07:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 25, 2017, NRmind wrote:
How advanced does one have to be to retain coaching services? (Ballpark estimation)
I imagine the information would be too much overload for a beginner, correct? Or no?
Should you have done 100 paid gigs? 200? Etc? [/quote]

I do think it the answer will vary based upon a number of factors. A few things to consider would be:
-How committed is the individual? A coach should not be used to reduce your personal time investment - (if anything it becomes more, just better dirrected).
-What is the purpose of seeking a coach? As Mindpro often states, ones own perceptions of their needs may differ from the viewpoint of a seasoned coach. Honest feedback seldom comes from family, friends and non-performing peers.
-How much risk can you afford? Financial investment in anything increases your risk. Can you afford to increase your risk? This is a personal decision. If not, there are alternative ways that might be less effective but lower risk to go, until you are in a position to assume greater investment risk. This is true of any component of your business, including props,equipment, promotionl materials and such.
Message: Posted by: NRmind (Apr 28, 2017 07:51PM)
Another informative answer. Thank you!

The hardest thing to find in any coaching/mentoring/business development relationship is always trust. Who's out to earn their money and help, and who's out for "easy money" promising the world lol.

I have so much admiration for people who make it in entertainment businesses. I appreciate the perspective gentlemen.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 21, 2017 10:02PM)
"If you want to be successful, find someone who has achieved the results you want and copy what they do and you'll achieve the same results."

Tony Robbins
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 22, 2017 09:28AM)
[quote]On Jun 21, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
"If you want to be successful, find someone who has achieved the results you want and copy what they do and you'll achieve the same results."

Tony Robbins [/quote]

That quote is only true if you possess the same talents.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 09:35AM)
And is typically only true as a generalization in perception. You more than likely do not or can not understand what they actually do to have achieved their success. Most see only the perception of that they THINK the person is or has done to achieve their success. Yes, then the talent strongly mist be at play for it even to be possible.

How many kids for years have tried to copy Michael Jordan over the years yet still have never come close the same same success. You must deal in honesty and reality too. There is usually much more at play that what most think they see.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 09:36AM)
Yea exactly. And opportunities.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 09:37AM)
Guys, have you heard of Tony Robbins and are you familiar with any of his work or message?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 09:39AM)
Yes. Very. He is a very food cheerleader and revs people up to buy his products very well.

Obviously you are a true believer. Cool. No problem.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 09:40AM)
Of course. Do you take us as idiots?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 22, 2017 09:42AM)
Tim- do you agree or disagree with the points we are making?
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 09:58AM)
I have to say, this is quite bizarre to me. Tony Robbins is viewed as THE leader when it comes to helping people reach peak performance and breaking past limiting obstacles. While he is highly respected in the business world, his influence goes far beyond just the business world, he's a household name.

Charlie Checkers, not only do I agree with the quote I posted, I have lived out the quote. I have had several different coaches, even though my strengths and talents were different from their strengths and talents, I am still able to copy much of what they do and I have achieved similar results of success.

I have recently been going through Personal Power II, wow, what an incredible program. Everyone could benefit from going through this program. I was able to get a digital copy on eBay for about $30.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 10:00AM)
He didn't ask you if you agreed with your own post, he asked you about the other posts in response to yours?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 22, 2017 10:34AM)
As Walter frequently points out, context is so important.

My brother initiated this thread. He did so because he has found value in receiving coaching. Mindpro is his coach. So, those posting here all understand how one can gain valuable knowledge and insights from others who are successful.

In order for the quote from Tony Robbins to have value in a thread about coaching, that would take the discussion to a higher leve, additional context or discernment is needed. What several of us have been pointing out is that while it is of course wise to seek advice from others, trying to copy what they did often leads to disappointment because of the factors mentioned. There are numerous quotes about the value on being original and not copying others from successful people. They are not implying that one just wing it without guidance from others.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 10:34AM)
Ok, I will give a more direct response. I actually believe you are right about the talent point, here is why:

You read the quote and assigned a meaning to it that a person must have a similar level of talent to emulate success. Since you assigned this meaning to the quote, you have a limiting belief that you must have a similar level of talent. So yes, you are right in your interpretation.

But your interpretation is not the only interpretation. One thing Tony Robbins teaches is our brain assigns meaning but it is often inaccurate meaning, the meaning then shapes our beliefs. He teaches how to reprogram the meaning our brain has assigned and break through to new levels of success.

In his TED talk, Tony Robbins asks the question - what's the difference between people who have been provided with abundant resources, money and privileges etc, and they spend their life going in and out of rehab? And then you have people who have been through ultimate pain, all kinds of abuse, and not always, but often they are the ones who contribute the most to society.

Why is this? Simply a matter of talent, or is there more going on?

The responses are very puzzling to me. I had hoped and thought a quote from an authority like Tony Robbins would be well received here. Best of luck to you all.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 10:35AM)
Ah, charlie I see we just posted at the same time, great minds think alike!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 22, 2017 10:59AM)
If talent can’t be learned then every penny you pay a coach would be wasted. Being successful at something
really comes down to dedicating yourself to develop and master skills. Talent is just a starting point.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 11:10AM)
One thing Tony Robbins teaches is asking yourself questions to change beliefs. One question he shares is:

What else could this mean?

I would encourage everyone to go back and read the quote with the question "What else could this mean?" in mind. Read from the frame of context that Tony Robbins is a world renowned motivator, sought after by top athletes. Maybe this quote could be helpful considering it comes from the world's best motivator. What else could this quote mean that could help me be more successful.

Best of luck!
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 22, 2017 11:11AM)
Talent is defined as a natural aptitude or skill. It cannot be learned. One can develop their natural abilities to further excentuate the positive impact, but that is all.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 22, 2017 11:18AM)
If you wait on talent you going to miss a lot of opportunities.
Sometimes you have to ‘just do it’ as they say. We often can't see
talent until we have used it. :)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 11:19AM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
One thing Tony Robbins teaches is our brain assigns meaning but it is often inaccurate meaning, the meaning then shapes our beliefs. He teaches how to reprogram the meaning our brain has assigned and break through to new levels of success. [/quote]


Still context is necessary to present a point. There is nothing in this quote you provided of Tony above that myself and every other certified Hypnotherapist doesn't know, use and practice as elementary 101 understanding and application. It not any kind of breakthrough or unique content. If you've taken coaching from other change agents I am sure it was likely present in their trainings as well.

If or when Cafécheckers would post here "I have been coaching with Mindpro and have enjoyed great and measurable success so far already" you would have been one of the first ones on here (I believe something to this affect actually happened earlier in this thread) and say it was just a general blanket statement, opinion or provided nothing to backup the claim.

So the same is occurring here, which is why additional context is needed when making such a general and blanket statement and why others are inquiring and providing such additional context.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jun 22, 2017 11:24AM)
The quote shared by Tony Robbins was likely meant for a lay audience looking for general direction in their life or pursuit. Here, it is out of context. I could have hired other coaches or purchased other courses that were specifically designed for children's entertainers. I could have copied The Great Zucchini, who I know and respect. I did not choose those paths because it would limit my possibilities. So, in the context of a discussion on coaching for entertainment business, copying others falls short of great advice.
Message: Posted by: Tim Friday (Jun 22, 2017 11:28AM)
I would recommend Tony Robbins for anyone in any industry. He is an expert when it comes to the topics of coaching and modeling.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 12:10PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2017, Tim Friday wrote:
I would recommend Tony Robbins for anyone in any industry. He is an expert when it comes to the topics of coaching and modeling. [/quote]

And selling and creating prophets. (Incidentally I did not spell that wrong.)

If you somehow believe all people are equal and all have the same ability to achieve whatever they want try asking a guy who is 4'11" and 250 pounds to dunk a basketball in a standard 10' rim with no trampoline. Then get back to me. All he has to do is run, jump, and dunk the ball just like Michael Jordan. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN now is it?

So he is a great cheerleader, and some people NEED that. Obviously you do. Cool. No problem. But there are those who just don't need that.

Also why not tell me how many people have bought his stuff? Millions I would say. Are they ALL at that level of success? Sure we always see the ones who do succeed. (One might make the point that they were going to without his help anyhow.) But what percentage of people do not succeed? How about we pick at that end of the equation for just a second?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 12:17PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:
The quote shared by Tony Robbins was likely meant for a lay audience looking for general direction in their life or pursuit. Here, it is out of context. I could have hired other coaches or purchased other courses that were specifically designed for children's entertainers. I could have copied The Great Zucchini, who I know and respect. I did not choose those paths because it would limit my possibilities. So, in the context of a discussion on coaching for entertainment business, copying others falls short of great advice. [/quote]

I agree. There is so much general info and perceptions being bantered about, yet rarely nothing specific to entertainment business. I agree magician's material are almost always limiting. I can't remember the last magician's course, book or resource that wasn't very limiting in content. General info may help in a rah-rah or encouragement sense, which is fine, but always lacks the actual content we need to be directly applicable and actionable and results in immediate as well as continuous business and profitability to use specifically as entertainers. Even the following someone else's way to success is actually quite limiting, which is exactly why I offer my caching, consulting and training the way I do and get the results it has.

I have never understood accepting the general approach over the specific approach. Yes, you are correct it was intended for a lay audience. We must be care if we are following lay advice or specialty or industry advice

We all must make choices and those choices are what leads you to your reality. I've always said be careful who you listen to and who's advice you accept. I guess now it's time to add to that - be careful who's success you're trying to copy.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Jun 22, 2017 01:06PM)
I am someone who has taken the Tony Robbins quote and lived it. Mirroring the actions of others who are more successful than I am has gotten me great results in many areas of my life. I have numerous examples of this being true in both business and in my performances as an entertainer and speaker. It would be interesting to hear about the experiences of those who have taken the quote to heart and have either succeeded or failed.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 01:17PM)
I want to hear the experience of a 4'11' guy dunking a basketball.

Everyone thinks that is sarcastic, but it is serious. Not everyone is equal are they?
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Jun 22, 2017 01:21PM)
Maybe we'll be lucky enough to hear about the experience of a 4'11" guy who emulated the actions of Michael Jordan. That's something I'd love to hear about.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 22, 2017 01:40PM)
Certainly there are limits to your talents, but the last thing you need to do is let someone else set them for you. We each have to find our own limits.

And let me add, It is impossible to seriously set a goal that you cannot reach. Many may find that hard to believe but it is true. “It is impossible to seriously set a goal that you cannot reach.”

Don’t believe me, get out a piece of paper and start setting goals. Do it seriously and your brain will not allow you to write something down if you have serious questions about it.

We all are where we are today because that is exactly where we ‘think’ we should be.

I have succeeded so many times on sheer desire alone. God knows I am not as talented as many but when it comes to reaching goals I have the ability to shift gears and force myself to do my very best.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 01:59PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
Maybe we'll be lucky enough to hear about the experience of a 4'11" guy who emulated the actions of Michael Jordan. That's something I'd love to hear about.

Lou Serrano [/quote]
So would I. That is my point.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 02:03PM)
Knowing the difference in a goal and a dream is important.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 02:12PM)
Yeah all of these general Successories type of quotes and motivations are dream or imagined-based. I personally prefer to get up every day and deal in reality and a realty-based strides. Other's quotes and imagined-based generalizations fail more than they succeed as they are all subjective and come with no accountable actions. Reality-based content has a far greater chance for success and accountability.

Btw, my mind let me write down that "I am going to be a tall back woman" because “It is impossible to seriously set a goal that you cannot reach.” Since my mind was able to allow me to write it, I will let you know how it all turns out.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 02:13PM)
Come on. You're never going to be tall.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Jun 22, 2017 03:01PM)
If my success is imaginary, I must have an amazingly vivid imagination.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 03:32PM)
I am not certain I or anyone claimed it was imaginary did they?
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Jun 22, 2017 06:11PM)
"If you want to be successful, find someone who has achieved the results you want and copy what they do and you'll achieve the same results." Tony Robbins

I think the problem with that quote is the word - SAME.

You can definitely learn SOMETHING from others, but I don't think you can ALWAYS duplicate their success. To me, a lot of success comes down to - TIMING.

If you spent a few weeks with David Copperfield, I'm sure he could give you some very good advice. That said, I don't think you could be doing yearly TV specials and make it to Forbes list of wealthy people. It's just not going to happen.

Again, I'm not saying you can't learn something from successful people. Duplicating their success is another story.

Gerry
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 06:15PM)
Thank you. That is exactly what been said by several a few different ways.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 22, 2017 06:28PM)
Exactly. But that doesn't sell many books to people. That is the problem.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 22, 2017 06:50PM)
I agree, SAME is not the right word. I would replace it with, “your goal’ or “great results” and stick with it.

Success can be duplicated, but it’s like a suit, you need a good fit, and even then it may look different on different people.

I personally am not a big fan of Tony’s style but I still enjoy most of the things he teaches.
I prefer speakers like his mentor the late Jim Rohn.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 06:53PM)
The modern guru movement came into being with Jim Rohn.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Jun 22, 2017 08:02PM)
The late Jim Rohn is my favorite speaker. His ideas explained so simply are a recipe for success.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 22, 2017 08:47PM)
And (to bring this thread back on topic) one of his three major reasons for his success and belief in success was having a coach, mentor or teacher/trainer.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Jun 22, 2017 08:52PM)
[quote]On Jun 22, 2017, lou serrano wrote:
The late Jim Rohn is my favorite speaker. His ideas explained so simply are a recipe for success.

Lou Serrano [/quote]

Yes and I could listen to Jim Rohn all day.

I always liked Zig Ziglar too. We sort of grew up together and I could relate to all his references to his way of life here in the south. :) Not only was Zig a great speaker he was a great man and he walked the talk.

But as far as keeping it simple, for me it is hard to beat Earl Nightingale. His ‘The Strangest Secret’ talk is a life changer.

Tom
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 20, 2017 09:27AM)
I was thinking of my last session with Mindoro and some of the things we discussed. One was a strategy of using YouTube I was pursuing. Mindoro listened and then challenged me to consider traditional methods of press and media because they still have more value to achieve the goal I am trying to reach. It caused me to rethink my approach and priorities. Not necessarily abandon what I was doing, but just rebalance the equation. He also viewed one of my performances and shared a performance piece that he believed did not fit well were I had placed it. In truth, I had kept it at the end of my performance because that is where it was when I performed with my brother. My show has changed since then and it now was a total misfit. I listened to Mindoro and was able to place it (with a few minor alterations) in a different part of my show that now fits and gets great reactions.

I share this to offer some specific ways that working with my coach has helped my business and performance. I also get valuable advice from friends and family as well as faculty at my school. The difference between them and Mindoro is that they do not understand my business model and ambitions, so they offer advice that takes my business in a direction they perceive to be the desired direction. One specific example of this is when they give advice that is offered so that I can build my birthday show bookings. I then usually explain that it is not my plan, but that is difficult for them to get past because that is their image of what children performers do. They do not have experience to draw upon, so advice is quite limited.

This made me wonder about those who work without a coach. Do you have someone you can talk to with regularity that is knowledgeable in your pursuit, has the necessary background, and is willing to challenge your methodology? If so, how frequently do you correspond with them?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 21, 2017 09:42PM)
[quote]On Aug 20, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:
This made me wonder about those who work without a coach. Do you have someone you can talk to with regularity that is knowledgeable in your pursuit, has the necessary background, and is willing to challenge your methodology? If so, how frequently do you correspond with them? [/quote]

Yes I have a couple people who meet those qualifications. I correspond as frequently as I want to with them... they are a text or a call away and they don't send me a bill.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Aug 22, 2017 02:37AM)
When I coach and help people, my goal is to help them be the best that they can be but to set any artificial benchmark would be impossible. There have been many that I have specifically dissuaded if their "goals" were unrealistic. Pure "talent" is innate. My goal as a producer was to find those exceptionally talented people and encourage them to be their best through any means necessary. They have gone on to perform around the globe.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 23, 2017 06:28PM)
[quote]On Aug 21, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Yes I have a couple people who meet those qualifications. I correspond as frequently as I want to with them... they are a text or a call away and they don't send me a bill. [/quote]

Thanks for your response. Would you be willing to share a bit more about yourself? For example how long you have been performing? Full time? Also, how diverse are your entertainment income streams and how close are you to ariving at the point you hope to reach? I think these can all influence the need or desire for input from others, especially in a formal manner. It would also be interesting to know the background of those you gain the most benefit from contacting. Is it similiar to your own? If not, to what degree is it different? Different target audience? Different market? Different form of entertainment? Different industry? (This is not just a question to thomasR, but really any who care to share how who they look to for the most reliable advice.

Ray- I agree with your perspectives. Out of curiosity, have you worked mostly with stage performers? I know you have a wealth of knowlege on all elements of stage production and performing, but I wonder how diverse the pursuits of those you work with are?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 23, 2017 11:25PM)
I've worked full time in live entertainment since 2005. I work full time as a lighting designer for a national touring band. I also own a company that produces circus and variety entertainment for small theaters, city festivals, and small business events. The Circus Company I started in 2007. Magic has been more of a hobby lately, but I performed for birthday parties and small town festivals and fundraisers in middle school and high school. And in recent years I'll take a arts festival or county fair gig if it's a weekend I'll be in town.

As far as "Arriving at the point you hope to reach" - I'm way beyond the point I hoped to reach. But I still have lots of ideas up my sleeve... which is why I'm always wanting to learn the marketing and business side of entertainment and see what works and what doesn't.

Everyone in my contacts is in the live entertainment industry. All different audiences and markets. Could be a video tech, a production manager, tour manager, or owner of an illusion show. I also have a few contacts at Disney Parks including a former imagineer. All of these are contacts that I will use to bounce various ideas off of.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 25, 2017 07:37AM)
Thanks for the details. it looks like you have wide access to experienced individuals in a wide variety of things. That impacts ones perceived need for a formal coach. You also have years of experience yourself, to draw upon.
My situation is very different. I have little experience and few in my social circles with extensive expertise. I am looking to overcome those deficiencies while building my network. Beginning with a more formal foundation will hopefully serve me well. I like the fact that I am working with someone who has written materials to assist in my learning and provides framework. We can not only speak to my projects, but his as well. He recently shared a large event he was managing and the behind the scenes workings. I was able to view promotional videos, websites, sponsorships, use of press articles and media footage. We spoke at length and in great detail on each aspect and how they came together. These are things that are directly applicable to my ambitions. Some things I can implement immediately, some will become necessary when I am ready for it. One specific thing I will share that I learned from our last session is how to use current events to my advantage with respect to press and media coverage, and how I can find creative ways to become a part of the story, but not necessarily the focal point.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 25, 2017 01:02PM)
Checkers... Not to be argumentative at all but why do you feel you need all this coaching and schooling? You are in college for business AND being coached by Mindpro? With your performing experiecne you should be able to get out there and make it happen pretty quickly. Naturally you want to build a business, but that happens naturally over time... You learn as you grow.

I feel like you may be wasting time planning your business, when you could be growing your business.

one problem I can see with coaches (and I'm not accusing Mindpro or anyone else of this...) is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 25, 2017 02:11PM)
Lou is a coach (My understanding from those who post here after taking his sessions a good one.) and speaks very highly of going to coaching sessions with others.

What works for one might not be the path for all.

I have never gone to coaching and never would. But again it is what makes things great that there are options.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 25, 2017 02:47PM)
Agreed Danny. I actually can see the value of a coach at certain points in a career.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Aug 26, 2017 10:30AM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Checkers... Not to be argumentative at all but why do you feel you need all this coaching and schooling? You are in college for business AND being coached by Mindpro? With your performing experiecne you should be able to get out there and make it happen pretty quickly. Naturally you want to build a business, but that happens naturally over time... You learn as you grow.
I feel like you may be wasting time planning your business, when you could be growing your business.
one problem I can see with coaches (and I'm not accusing Mindpro or anyone else of this...) is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase. [/quote]

thomasR- First, I don't take it as argumentative. I began this thread to get opinions on what people in our industry thought of coaching, if they were using it and if not, what they did to advance themselves. Without differing opinions, it is a pretty boring discussion.

The reason I feel a need for coaching and schooling is to increase the likelihood that I will be successful in creating a business that supports my desired lifestyle ( which may differ greatly from others). I believe a disciplined approach will provide me with a competitive advantage. There are fundamental foundational aspects to any endeavor. Additionally, I am realizing that the more one invests in themselves, the more others are willing to assist and likewise invest in.

You say that with my performing experience I should be able to "get out there and make it happen pretty quickly". That depends on what one defines "it" as. Like you, I already way surpassed my initial ambitions. I began this business with my brother prior to entering high school. Our initial intention was to make a few bucks and gain work experience. Nothing more. We were very fortunate to have access to TMC and the associated talent pool. My brother invested time to participate and learn every aspect of our business, We had no intention of creating a lively hood. Even as we began making significant money, it was now paying for our education and such, but the business was not intended to support either of our long term desired life styles. My brother moved on a few years ago to pursue other endeavors, while still performing occasionally and assisting me when possible. When I made the decision to pursue the entertainment industry as my occupation, I decided to invest in knowledge that would allow me to propel the business beyond the current trajectory. I needed to acquire knowledge and expertise that I lack.

You say "I feel like you may be wasting time planning your business, when you could be growing your business." I do not view it that way at all. I perceive it to be experiential learning. There is nothing more gratifying to me than to implement something (like a significant fee increase or pricing structure) and have clients respond in a positive way. Without guidance, I would not have such confidence that I would get such a change correct. Getting those things wrong has serious consequences with an established business in an area I plan on serving for many years. Getting it right, gives me motivation to work even harder to reach new possibilities. This is just one rather simplified example on one aspect of business growth. In order to expand beyond just performing as a source of income, I need to understand how to develop an entertainment business that offers additional income potential.

Of course there are examples of those who have achieved all this and more with no formal education or coaching. As discussed here and in other threads, success has many variables. Many are beyond our control. That is why some who "make it" underestimate the difficulty in others following in their footsteps. Each individual comes with their talent level, at their time, in their location, with their choice in life style. My hope is to simply better control the aspects that I can.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 26, 2017 03:22PM)
I've been watching and following this thread, and it's interesting to see others perspective on this. Once again, people tend to only see it as it applies to them and not as intended in a greater sense. Many are simply not getting it or truly trying to understand what Cafécheckers has been sharing and hoping to get others thoughts on, although some good exchanges have occurred so hopefully someone has benefited.

I think many are not understanding it because, at least in my case with my coaching, there are many, many levels to it, while others try to simplify or minimize it to only a mono-focused or purposed benefit.

The truth is the vast majority of my coaching is content not available anywhere else. Then on top of that with the many levels that exist is is literally like receiving an MBA in entertainment business (many regularly tell me this over and over again.) It can literally be the msot eye-opening, life changing experience for most. The problem is you don't know what you don't know, so unless you are really trying you will not get even close to a full comprehension and understanding of it. Even what Caféchecker has posted, is only being read at its simplest and minimalistic level, not as intended.

What thomasR has described above is similar to what many do, the problem is each of those pros that he turns to can only offer their own personal knowledge and experience and not anything beyond what they know from their own perspective. While this can be helpful and beneficial, and even more so when you have 5-10 of these people each with a different area of specialty, it just is not the same as what Cafécheckers is referring to from a greater all encompassing industry perspective and education. While my personal insights and experience can come into our coaching conversations, most of it is not based on my personal experiences, but rather the greater understanding of the entire industry and proper industry operations. This encompasses a lot.

As Cafécheckers pointed out in an above post, when he shares with others that he is a kids entertainer, everyone almost always creates their own perception of what that is or means (to them) which usually is kids birthday parties) yet is nowhere near what Cafécheckers is referring to (nothing to do with kids parties) and it then immediately becomes beyond their comprehension so obviously they can't offer anything beneficial to him in terms of input, experience, knowledge or anything, other than uninformed, uneducated opinion, which is exactly not what he's looking for.

thomasR's qoute and question of "Checkers... Not to be argumentative at all but why do you feel you need all this coaching and schooling? You are in college for business AND being coached by Mindpro?" is a great example of this. All of his schooling, all of his college for business DOES NOT include anything close to what I am teaching/coaching, not even close. Sure it may offer some of the basics and standard steps of conventional business (which much of which he can quickly see doesn't or can't apply to entertainment business), and his entrepreneurial education has essentially prepared him for the Mindpro coaching content, which has been very helpful, but I assure you it is the coaching content that has progressed him, will help him with his plan and obtain his goals in the most direct way attainable in entertainment. His current education is a great addition and enhancement or supplement to what I am offering. It is this that has allowed him the great amount of progress (forward progression), evolvement of the show, production, business and of course as he mentioned confidence (the most basic of what you get from my coaching, that is a given) and the greater value and prices he has obtained in such a short period of time. I'm betting he has more that paid for any coaching education he spent and is already seeing profits and results - any we've just begun with the foundational elements (which is so important yet 95% of performers don't do/have or have wrong!)

Now don't get me wrong or misread what I'm saying, it is not all just me, Cafécheckers puts in the time and the work necessary to make all of this possible. I'd say what we've accomplished in just several months would take the typical performer 3-5 year BEGIN to start to get to. Look at them, they were doing this for 6 years I believe, yet some of the greatest advances, strides and progress were in the last few months of working together. Also if I was to lay out everything we have worked on and accomplished all together in these few short months and compared it to conventional business and education you would be amazed. And he is just in my basic coaching program!

So the point is in spite of Cafécheckrs brave efforts of putting himself and all of this out there, it is still not being understood, but rather beneficial to focus on the strides he has made, how it has changed and impacted him and his business, his business plan, forward movement and progress, and overall defined what we is seeking to accomplish and how it is happening so succinctly, effectively and efficiently. It is amazing to me that some here are going to such levels to truly to find fault, flaws or more, rather than see the points and curiosity being illustrated.

As for coaching "is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase" I can only speak personally here, but I have students that have been with me 5, 8 and 10 years, as I go that "deep" into entertainment business. I have ten different coaching programs and levels available, most beyond the basic coaching level most newbies, beginners or part-time or newer full-time performers start with. As much as they learn and as fast as they see results, progress and evolve, most always want to continue to the next level. As performers and entertainment business owners it is always a continual growing process, but what I am referring to is advanced levels far beyond the understanding of most performers. This is where income and opportunities compound into an entirely different level for most performers and entertainment business professionals.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 28, 2017 10:03AM)
[quote]On Aug 25, 2017, thomasR wrote:
Checkers... Not to be argumentative at all but why do you feel you need all this coaching and schooling? You are in college for business AND being coached by Mindpro? With your performing experiecne you should be able to get out there and make it happen pretty quickly. Naturally you want to build a business, but that happens naturally over time... You learn as you grow.

I feel like you may be wasting time planning your business, when you could be growing your business.

one problem I can see with coaches (and I'm not accusing Mindpro or anyone else of this...) is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase. [/quote]

Super interesting. I may need to read this one a second time.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Aug 28, 2017 10:09AM)
[quote]On Aug 26, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

As for coaching "is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase" I can only speak personally here, but I have students that have been with me 5, 8 and 10 years, as I go that "deep" into entertainment business. I have ten different coaching programs and levels available, most beyond the basic coaching level most newbies, beginners or part-time or newer full-time performers start with. As much as they learn and as fast as they see results, progress and evolve, most always want to continue to the next level. As performers and entertainment business owners it is always a continual growing process, but what I am referring to is advanced levels far beyond the understanding of most performers. This is where income and opportunities compound into an entirely different level for most performers and entertainment business professionals. [/quote]

You go that "deep?"

10 years? Dude. People can get a Bachelor's, Master's and PhD in less time than that.

You claim to go that "deep," and yet you have no publicly verifiable credentials other than a late 1990s version website.

Help us out here. What depth can you possibly have that takes longer than a PhD program to learn but no verifiable means of measuring said depth?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 30, 2017 09:21AM)
Yes, I go that deep!

Dude? What kind of "professional" performer or speaker talks like that?

Once again Robert you are talking about something you know nothing about and are speaking only from your own limited and jaded bold opinions not fact. You don't care to accept the facts when I and others have offered them to you.

The "publicly verifiable credentials" seems to be your own personal hangup and agenda. No need to "help you out here" most are well aware of the knowledge I have shared here over the years, which is only the very tip of the iceberg that I choose to share publicly. What depth? That's why they join in the coaching, to learn and find out. Most realize there is much they don't know, you seem to not get this. Again, it is more than just what many think of as "coaching" it is, much more, many layers and levels beyond just coaching and such valuable content and commitment from myself and beneficial value to their business that many decide they want to retain it in their business and operations long-term, several permanently.

And as far as "publicly verifiable credentials" what do you mean, online? What you can't find any "publicly verifiable credentials" when you search the internet? Of course not. Same for my offerings and performances, you will not find them online either because they are not for public consumption.

Also you are wrong again about one website from the 1990's (which the one you are referring to was not even mine) - again uninformed opinion, not fact (be careful to who you listen to). The fact is I have over 20 websites for all of my businesses - fact. But, no you will not find them in search results, no SEO, no social media.

Yes, my sessions are only once a week, some twice a week for those aggressively taking multiple trainings/coaching programs, yet I assure you students get much faster results than many typical Bachelor's, Master's and PhD. Stop worrying about my business as it doesn't pertain to you as you choose not to understand it when I and others offer such information. This whole thread is packed with information and explanations of which you seem to challenge everyone who has addressed this.

First some of you complain no one (of my students/clients) have come here to speak factually about my coaching and trainings, then when one does you challenge and find fault with that too.

You popping in only to offer opinions, flame and take shots is quite obvious to everyone here.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 30, 2017 12:21PM)
It is really odd that you are "coaching" performers on marketing and yet do not market yourself in SEO and social media. The fact that you don't seem to understand why some of us question that is even MORE odd in my opinion. But that's not what this thread is about.

I personally think Checkers can get value from your coaching... that wasn't what my posts were about. It was just questioning the focus on "business planning" vs. "business building."
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 30, 2017 02:03PM)
Yes, I understand your questioning. I think many just are in such a hurry to "do", they do so aimlessly. By including the proper type of planning on the foundational elements it makes everything much more clear and succinct and ultimately makes what we're doing together more productive and beneficial. Plus working with so many performers allows me to see some very common perceptions and generalities that most here don't experience. This is also true of my agencies as they allow me to book many types of performers in many types of markets, with many types of clients, on many levels, much of which again most performers can never experience.

I can't tell you how many (I'd say over 80%) come to me and right off the bat say "I don't know what to do" or "I don't really know what I'm doing" or "I think I must be doing something wrong" or similar. There is not education or curriculum on someone wanting to become a entertainer, it is simply each man or woman for themselves. The mistake many make is they ask others what they do. As both checkers brothers have so eloquently pointed out here in this very forum, that can very limiting and hurting most performers more than helping them. As each performer has their own interest, foundation (many extremely flimsy created by default), perceptions, markets and sooo many other variables. What I coach works across the board for all types of performers, on all levels in all markets and also for all types of entertainment businesses from bounce house/inflatable businesses, to face-painting, to games and amusements, to the hundreds of Santa's and many types of entertainment businesses in between that I have coached and trained worldwide. It is this formal education so many are missing and ultimately needing.

You earlier said "With your performing experience you should be able to get out there and make it happen pretty quickly... You learn as you grow."

I find it hard to really understand this as performers that "just go out and do it" tend to just simply continue to repeat and do more of what they are currently doing. It is all they know. It is what they THINK they should be doing. They know nothing else. There is no way for them to possibly know what else there is or what else is to come or that they could be doing. That is a benefit to working with someone who can offer such insight AND allow it to happen more directly and often quicker.

Also there is an assumption that he could figure it our himself. This is often not close to true. They would continue to do what they THINK is what to do, but as I have often pointed out here most of what performers think is one way is often really another, what a performer thinks others think of their show is not what others actually think of their shows, what they think is the path to achieve what they think they want is often quickly realized it is not and once the true reality is realized it opens the floodgates, which these types of things they likely wouldn't realize on their own, even if they did learn a small portion of it it could take years, if at all. Most performer's frustrations, lack of achievement or being where they want to be often isn't because they don't put in the work but rather they are working on the wrong stuff from the wrong perspective. I assist them with this, show them the realities, prove these realities are not just my opinion what actually exists, and then present all of this from the industry perspective which is the most important element. When one only operates form their own beliefs, perceptions and opinions, which are based on nothing but themselves, how can they actually possibly compete in the industry as a true professional? Once they choose to operate as and true industry professional from an industry perspective, they start seeing and experiencing the real elements of what we do and realize how far off their own limited, uninformed and often uneducated beliefs were and that they were exactly what was holding them back.

I see it here from several members that blantantly fail to realize THEY are in their own way of achievement, progression and success.

I'm not sure why you think I coach anyone on marketing? Who says I coach anyone on marketing? Again I think that is some's own perception. I have always said most performers seriously believe their lack of bookings and progress is due to a lack of marketing. They falsely equate to marketing or lack of/bad/not enough marketing to lack of bookings. In my coaching I prove time and time again, that simply isn't true and again is a misperception. As I have said, I could go to any town in America and help a performer get 8, 10, 12 or more bookings. They'll do the shows and be back exactly where they were before I got them those bookings. It is not a marketing problem, it is a business operational problem. One of my business as an experiment we stopped all marketing (100%) over 20 years ago and it had still continued to doubled business for the first 5 years until we had to forcibly cut off business. No marketing at all because the business model didn't require it. So sure, I'll assist on marketing if someone asks about it, but only if the other elements are clearly in place first and they are TRULY ready to market.

I understand completely why you and some others of you question why I don't market with SEO, online or social media. It is even MORE odd in my opinion that this is such a misperception that all performers must do this. Again with more assumptions. This is a false assumption that simply isn't true. Ask Cafécheckers if he has done any additional or new marketing since working with me to or if he had spend any more marketing dollars, or to do anything additional to raise his price and offerings to likely more than double his price/profitability. The answer would be no, he didn't have to do any new or different/additional marketing at all.

In my business model there is no place or benefit for these. Again, performers seem to think only as things seems or appear to them, without taking the time to learn or become educated about other ways. I understand completely it is because most here are not looking at anything more that the typical "default" performer's approach. This too is quite limiting and I am constantly amazed that more do not wish to pursue this more.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Aug 30, 2017 02:57PM)
Some very good points. I do agree that many want to "do" instead of plan and educate. I'm all for planning and education... I just think we may disagree slightly on the importance of having a coach vs. other forms of educating oneself in the entertainment industry. What I think we do agree on is that the entertainment industry is VERY unique.

When you say "there is an assumption that he could figure it out for himself" - I think #1. Yes it's possible that he could. All depends on his mindset and partly his market. It's not exactly rocket science and as long as you listen to your clients and watch others in your market there are a lot of things that you can learn yourself. It may take a bit longer... but it's certainly possible.

#2. There are many resources available. Podcasts, Business Courses, Business Books, and yes you can contact and network with various professionals.

Again... I'm not here to try to talk Checkers out of coaching with you... (I would try to talk him out of the college classes but that's another story...) as I think a good coach can certainly give someone a jump start in building and / or expanding their business.


Now when you say... "I'm not sure why you think I coach anyone on marketing? Who says I coach anyone on marketing?"
First... I would hope that your coaching includes marketing? Also... Checkers mentioned how you critiqued his youtube strategy and to consider traditional press and media. That's marketing by most peoples definition.

Would you care to share (possibly in a new thread) why you don't market with SEO and how it benefits you? I do have some ideas of how that could be a positive, and would be interested in knowing which markets this benefits and why.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Aug 30, 2017 03:58PM)
[quote]On Aug 30, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
What I coach works across the board for all types of performers, on all levels in all markets and also for all types of entertainment businesses from bounce house/inflatable
businesses, to face-painting, to games and amusements, to the hundreds of Santa's [/quote]

"Hundreds of Santa's"? Dude- there's only one. Now I know your lying.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 30, 2017 06:33PM)
Dude? What kind of "doctor" talks like that? Lol!

Sorry, that d*@n predictive text, I meant to say hundreds of "Santa's helpers". Phew, that was a close one!
Message: Posted by: JoshLondonMagic (Aug 31, 2017 06:23AM)
[quote]On Aug 28, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
[quote]On Aug 26, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

As for coaching "is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase" I can only speak personally here, but I have students that have been with me 5, 8 and 10 years, as I go that "deep" into entertainment business. I have ten different coaching programs and levels available, most beyond the basic coaching level most newbies, beginners or part-time or newer full-time performers start with. As much as they learn and as fast as they see results, progress and evolve, most always want to continue to the next level. As performers and entertainment business owners it is always a continual growing process, but what I am referring to is advanced levels far beyond the understanding of most performers. This is where income and opportunities compound into an entirely different level for most performers and entertainment business professionals. [/quote]

You go that "deep?"

10 years? Dude. People can get a Bachelor's, Master's and PhD in less time than that.

You claim to go that "deep," and yet you have no publicly verifiable credentials other than a late 1990s version website.

Help us out here. What depth can you possibly have that takes longer than a PhD program to learn but no verifiable means of measuring said depth? [/quote]

Sounds like Scientology for entertainers. Lol.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 03:24PM)
I've been reading through all of these posts here and I would like to jump into the conversation if I may and express what I'm looking for and see what direction this may take. Perhaps, what I'm bringing may be helpful to others or stir things in a way that can cause some interesting things to come up.

First, I want to say, without naming names, I have spoken to some who have posted here, in PM's. I have a great deal of respect for everyones opinion and I'd like to thank all of you for what you've shared so far because it has really caused me to think abut my current situation.

Basically, I am beginning to feel like I'm in over my head. I've got more than $3000 invested in two different upcoming conventions to begin exploring the fair market and to say I'm scared is an understatement.

I've been performing for a bit over 18 years. I've worked in theme parks, corporate events, kids parties, trade shows, cocktail parties, private events, golf course, renaissance festivals and busked the streets. Of all the mentioned arenas, I've worked the longest as a busker and at renaissance festivals. Back in 2006 I dropped everything else and focused only on the things I enjoyed most, which is Busking and Renaissance Festivals.

Last year, I was talking to a friend, (Kozmo) who said it was about time I start looking to move inside. For the record, inside in our circle means not depending so much on passing a hat. Since I love performing outdoors, this also means the state and county fair market would be ideal for me. Now, I have two solid 25 minute shows that I've been performing for years, so that part is not an issue.

My issue is that I just invested a lot of money into something that is in essence a risk and the reason I'm scared is because I'm entering uncharted waters. I have very little direction to go on and as November is quickly closing in, my stress level continues to rise. If I go into these convention and book nothing, which I'm told is a possibility, how on earth am I supposed to feel comfortable doing the same thing again the following year? or the next day, for that matter, all with the hope that maybe next time it'll be better.

Is getting a coach the answer? Is there a way to increase my odds of going into something where no one knows me and coming out with something to show for? I'm seriously in a desperate situation. If anyone thinks they can truly help me, I'm all ears and very open to trying anything, if it can help. I've been told a million times to be patient and while I am patient, I'm also goal oriented, that means I need to see some substance or have something to show for my efforts. So far, I've worked my butt off and still have nothing to show for it.

Now, I'm really looking forward to hearing from someone who's been there and done it with some actions steps that you don't mind sharing.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read what I've posted. I sincerely thank you.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Aug 31, 2017 04:44PM)
Cbguy,

Change your thinking! You are talking yourself into failure. Why are you looking for someone to give you direction. Your business, your goals, your dream. All a coach / consultant / advisor / etc can do is either help you make a decision on where you want to go and how to get there, but you have to choose the destination.

you listened to kozmo on what you should do, your here asking for guidance on what you should do.

Think through this:
1. Do you want to change your business model?
2. Do you need to change it?
3. If yes, what do you want your business to evolve to?
4. Are the steps you are worrying about necessary to achieve the goal?
5. If yes, why are you worrying? Isolate your fear. Define clearly what your afraid of.
6. Take some actions to counter the fear.

My gut on what you wrote is fear of failure. So stop worrying and start working on your plan to achieve success. Have you made certain what you haves planned is the best for you, your family, your business? If it is then just do it, you've already analyzed it and planned it. If it doesn't bear fruit now analyze why and correct the problem. Farmers till the soil to remove the rocks, sometimes for years, in preparation of planting crops. Your business is no different. Take action.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 31, 2017 05:05PM)
Great rah rah speech. Let's hope it meshes with reality. Mike has a family depending upon the results.

Too often I see people encourage without thinking about the impact on the very real lives of those asking.

Mike has very real very important concerns.

Can coaching help? The answer really is it depends. And that is not helpful.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 05:07PM)
WDavis, Thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

Koz and I both know the street is a hard life because of the many things that we have to depend on to keep it going. It's hard on the family. It's hard on the finances. It's hard on your health. I knew that it was time to start moving into a more secure way of earning a living. All Koz did was give me the reassurance. He's a good friend that I trust.

Do I want to change my business model?
If you mean do I want to be done passing a hat, then yes!

Do I need to change it?
Again, yes, I do need to change it.

What do I want my business to evolve to?
I want to keep three of the renaissance festivals that I currently like working. Which I'm in for life, unless I decide to get out, which I have no interest in doing. The other renaissance festivals I have worked in the past, I declined to sign new contracts for because they are during the busiest months for fairs - June, July & August - and I really want to break into the fair market. It makes most sense to me that if I want to do this, I need to make myself available when they would likely need me. So, I just took the long way to say, I want my business to evolve into that of a fair performer.

Are the steps you are working about necessary to achieve the goal?
Yes! The steps I'm particularly worried about involve walking into the conventions and not landing any contracts. From the way I understand it, I'm not supposed to try selling my show. I'm supposed to build relationships like I do when making friends and nothing more. If someone decides they like me enough to give me a shot, they are supposed to approach me. This is where I'm having a lot of stress because I've never experience this kind of model before where so much is left to chance. Especially when there are already so many other people who do what I do who are established and "in" with the associations.

If yes, why are you working? Isolate your fear. Define clearly what you are afraid of.
The answers to this question are laid out in the previous response.

Take some actions to counter the fear?
I need a prescription for Prozac ; )

Seriously, you are correct in that my fear is that of failure. This fear pushes me everyday to continue sending out emails and making attempts at finding new contacts. I have talked with a few people and I'm probably over-reacting and worried about things that I shouldn't be worried about. However, I've been like this my entire life and if I wasn't, I'd probably sit back and do nothing. So, the fear is my driving force. Moving into the fair market would definitely be the best thing for my family, me and my business.

I always have a cushion to fall back on, because the streets are always going to be there, but I need to make this change.

I'll either be laughing at all of my anxiety by the end of November or kicking myself. Thanks again for taking the time to shed some light. It's much appreciated!
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Aug 31, 2017 05:30PM)
I see,

So basically, the worry is coming from walking in blind to the convention and not being familiar with relationship selling.
So lets fix that, working a convention is the same regardless of the industry:

1. You've registered for the fair,
2. request an attendee list.
3a. narrow the list down to your must meets and start booking appointments with them. Schedule at least 3-5 appointments a day for 15-30 minutes
3b. Invite them to a cup of coffee/booze and have a few questions to ask them. Make sure to tell them your interested in undetstanding the fair market and want their perspective.
4. Basically, learn from them let them talk, and when you come up, mention what you do (don't show it it's not an audition) get to know them as a person connect!
5. then at the end ask for their business card (if you don't have it already) and say if they are interested you will send over a press kit and follow up.
6.Then you schedule a follow up after the convention to discuss their event needs in detail.

A side bit to reinforce your relationship - if you meet someone who adds some value to the people you've met based or would be of interest to the person based on your appointment conversation introduce them to each other at the convention.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 05:36PM)
WDavis, I sincerely thank you for taking the time to understand where I was coming from because you hit the nail on the head with the root of my concern.

Thank you so much for these insights. These are the details that make a big difference and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

I really like the idea of setting up the brief appointments rather than just chatting and hoping for the best. Now, there is a system and I'm really good at following systems to the letter.

Again, I truly appreciate you and your time.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Aug 31, 2017 05:54PM)
This is going to be interesting. Are you asking for opinions or actual advice with real answers? They are two different things. I know you gathered opinions so far and obviously are getting conflicting results which is likely leading to your feeling of uncertainty.

Be careful who you are listening to - your time, effort money and reputation are at stake (and in some severe cases so can marriages and family too). Also are you prepared to hear what you might not want to hear?

While I understand Walter's point about talking yourself into failure, I see it more as something else. I see it as a natural reaction of going into new and unchartered waters with an investment that is more likely to not produce results than succeed. I think anyone would have the same feeling.

The real question is why this feeling exists. Besides being new and unfamiliar territory, one of the main reasons is you are going into a new area without knowledge, education or true understanding. Other than a few opinions, some of which may be offered as advice when really only personal opinions, you know very little about the market and direction you are heading. I disagree with some of the even basic advice you've been given.

You tell me, who has the better chance to succeed - the person going in uneducated, uninformed just spending the money someone told him to to exhibit without market knowledge, an actual business plan created specifically for that market, and understanding of how the market works, what to do, what not to do, and "how to play to the room"? Or someone that has taken the time to learn all of these things, create a business plan and business operational system created specifically for this market and its key targets, having an exact approach and business plan and strategy, with a great emphasis on how to properly present, sell and position yourself within the market? Who offers the most to such prospects? Who stands the best opportunity to take a chance on you? Who offers the best chance to get booked?

Seems many elements are missing that I would think you should have in place BEFORE even thinking of spending such money. Remember, many others you will be there exhibiting and competing against for bookings and fair dollars have experience, relationships and established accounts already. Just as a beginner you are an underdog with little or minimal chance for results.

I say this not to freak you out or to discourage you, but to paint you a true perspective of what you are truly going into and up against. I have been booking the fair market since 1976. Through the boom of the 80s and 90s and yes, even still today with several of our acts. It is a good ol' boy market place. You need to have a structured strategy and game plan of how to approach this and fit in.

You have spent money and committed yourself. This is different than investing in yourself. Personally I would have taken the $3000 and got a proper education, training and formulate exactly what is needed to approach such a new market. Now before some chime in with their agendas saying I'm only trying to solicit a new coaching student, this is not the case. I didn't say me, but someone who can truly help you and provide you exactly what you need to do this properly and effectively from the industry perspective. If I happen to be one of those people that fit that bill, well so be it, it's your lucky day, lol.

Seriously, do you see my point? How can you (or anyone) realistically think they can start to approach and be a part of a new market blindly, without market knowledge and operational guidance, but rather just throw yourself in the ring "and see what happens". That's a crapshoot with your money. Then be told "not to sell"? I guess you are truly there only to be on exhibit and "network" I bet.

I know you've listened to some podcasts and probably talked to some other fair performers and maybe even a couple of fair managers or contacts. Again good for some personal opinions and maybe a little insight, but in no way a formal education. The best you will get is what they feel has worked for them or what they "feel might be some helpful information. Their money and family is not at stake.

Yes it is easy to see you are likely in over your head for just the reasons explained above. The question is what to do about it now. Sure you've been performing for 18 years, but often that means absolutely nothing to new and unchartered territories and markets. It is true, many go years without a single booking at these events, many for just the reasons outlined here. You are not just competing with other acts and artists but agencies that are prominent in the industry, that have many fair accounts already locked up.

At this point you need to learn and learn fast everything you can about the fair market from an industry perspective, not that of another performer or other vying for the same things you are. You need education and knowledge to gain experience, which will lead to reducing your risk and fear, then develop a proper system for approaching and optimizing the events. Usually a three-tiered approach works best.

Also why fairs and not festivals?

I'll stop at that for now. I think you really already know this, which is part of the cause of your fear. You have 90 days to pull something off. The general information you've acquired will help you only minimally. It got you into the situation you are currently in. So the question is, now what?
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 06:18PM)
Mindpro, I will be sending you a PM in the next few minutes.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 31, 2017 06:20PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I see,

So basically, the worry is coming from walking in blind to the convention and not being familiar with relationship selling.
So lets fix that, working a convention is the same regardless of the industry:

[/quote]

This is perhaps the MOST expensive advice I have ever seen written on this board.

Hopefully Robert will chime in.

But it seriously is not as easy as take them out for coffee.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Aug 31, 2017 08:59PM)
Cbguy- thanks for your post. It illustrates so well the need to have sound advice. It also shows how one cannot count on friends and acquaintances unless they happen to be great teachers. Just being a successful performer does not qualify them (in my opinion) to lead you on a journey into the unknown.

There are so many questions I would want answered, the first one being: "Is my show truly of the length, content and quality of what fairs desire? Do I have the proper materials necessary to effectively promote it? If not, can I afford to create them? Do I know how to engage with potential buyers that demonstrates confidence in my ability to deliver to their expectations? That includes asking the right questions that show interest without exposing my lack of experience.

Of course many have been successful moving into the fair market without formal advice, but often pay a high price of years of acquired experience.

Mindoro breaks it down so well. I also really appreciate Danny's sobering comments. I also think it is important to have varied opinions here. It allows for great discussion. If we focus more on challenging ideas and opinions and less on personal attacks, there would be better conversation, less perceived need for "PM's" and things that take away from that which we all learn from. I hope those whose contributions have been challaged continue with this discussion in a way that moves it forward.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 09:21PM)
Charlie Checkers, I did get some quality help from some people. The problem is they are busy doing their thing that they don't really have time to give me that I need. I'm totally okay with that, but I am willing to pay someone who can help & guide me in the right direction.

I already know that both of my shows are the quality, length and content that fairs want. I also know that I have the proper materials to promote it and what I don't have I can create or have created.

Now, engaging with the prospective buyers, here is where it gets interesting and different from anything I've ever dealt with in the past. I have patience. That's not an issue. The issue is wanting to know that the steps I'm taking are the right steps and moving me in the right direction to enter a new market that I want to be a part of for the next 30 years. I do not want to be doing things just to do them and have the feeling like I'm busy, for the sake of doing busy work. My time is too valuable and I need to make sure the steps I'm taking are right. I hope this makes sense.

I have mindpros materials and have used them successfully. In fact, I just had another newspaper story published where my story takes up the entire front page of the Entertainment section of the paper and 1/3 of the back page. I sent minder a PM asking for his help as a coach. I know his materials are legit and hopefully he will be open to working with me.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Aug 31, 2017 09:40PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2017, cbguy wrote:

I've been performing for a bit over 18 years. I've worked in theme parks, corporate events, kids parties, trade shows, cocktail parties, private events, golf course, renaissance festivals and busked the streets. Of all the mentioned arenas, I've worked the longest as a busker and at renaissance festivals. Back in 2006 I dropped everything else and focused only on the things I enjoyed most, which is Busking and Renaissance Festivals.

[/quote]

Hey cbguy,

This tells me that you are ready to perform anywhere. Why? Because you will be performing for the same type people that you have already been performing to. Fair goers are normal people too.

What you need now is to get to know a little about those in charge of booking the fairs. My guess is they will want you to please the crowd just like you have been doing for 18 years. Let em know that is your goal. Talk to Robert Smith on here, he works fairs and can give you some valuable insights on dealing with the fair personnel.

I have to agree with Wdavis, you probably worrying for nothing. Reminds me of my story about the little boy wanting to open a lemonade stand and when he asked his friend if she wanted to help she started asking a million questions that really had nothing to do with selling lemonade. If you care to read it sometimes you can here: http://boleware.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-lemonade-stand.html

But anyway, I say go for it, it may not go as fast as you want it to right away, but once your foot is in the door, you are on your way.

Good luck with it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Aug 31, 2017 10:03PM)
Hi Tom,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. I am friends with Robert and he actually had me as a guest on one of his Vlogs.

I try to tip toe around because I know that not everyone gets along and has different perspectives and ways of thinking. I set my ego aside and keep my cup empty, so I can take in as much as possible.

My website is www.VillageIdiotMagic.com and there is a lot of content there.

I think a coach is a great idea. I even asked Robert about it months ago, but he declined. I understand where he is coming from and I can appreciate it! I will be hanging out with him in Las Vegas in November and I'll likely see Mindpro there as well.

Thanks again and I appreciate all of you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Aug 31, 2017 10:33PM)
Lemonade stands are far less expensive and most kids don't have family's that depend on them.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Sep 1, 2017 04:18AM)
CBGUY,

A couple of very quick things from my own personal perspective.

I mainly work festivals, but I have worked a few fairs and have also worked a Fair & Festival convention like the one you mentioned.

From what I’m reading so far from your post here and looking at your website is that you are a decent performer (your one video had me laughing), but you have NEVER worked a fair. Is that correct?

So here are my two big questions that you honestly have to answer:

Do you REALLY have an act that will play well and fairs, and is it the type of act that fair committees are looking to book?

Do you have marketing materials that match the act that you are selling?

I’m not convinced you’re there just yet. I’m not saying you couldn’t get there, but what you’re doing sort of reminds me of the stories we hear about close-up magicians all of a sudden deciding they want to work trade shows. That’s a HUGE leap.

Very quickly, I looked at your web page and had to dig just to find a mention of you working fairs. When I get there, there’s a picture of you working the streets outside a movie theatre and one of you working on TV. What does that have to do with the fair market?

Having worked a fair convention, I can tell you first hand that there are guys there will BIG ACTS and EXPENSIVE ADVERTISIND DISPLAY UNITS. I was completely out gunned at my first fair convention.

You’re going to see acts that carry a ton of equipment with banners and backdrops. Guys that host pig racing.

And then there’s going to be you, with what appears to be a street act. I’m not saying you’re not entertaining, as you won me over while I was watching one of your film clips. Again, though, is your style of act match up to the type of acts that fairs are looking for?

Wish I had more time this morning, but that’s my initial take on all of this.

Best,

Gerry
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 1, 2017 07:43AM)
Gerry,

Thanks for your input...I'm certainly not the close up performer who wants to work trade shows. You make it sound like I'm still wet behind the ears, LOL. I have been working as a busker as well as Renaissance Festivals and my act is what fairs are looking for. I can only say that because I've been told by workers who work fairs as well as one fair manager.

I love the fact that you said that, I'm a "decent" performer but it doesn't look like I'm quite ready yet, that made me smile. What does working the streets have to do with working fairs? Just a guess. Stopping a crowd of people...Building that crowd and turning them into an audience...Making sure they are having fun to stick around the entire show. If they don't like you or leave, then you wouldn't get paid, either. These are things I know for a fact that 99% of magicians cannot do. But they all think they can, in the words of my old friend Don Driver "They need to wake up and smell the toast burning"

...and if I'm on the stage with a captive audience, that's the easiest thing anyone can do.

I have big circus banners, and the marketing materials needed. My shows pack small and play big. I get laughs per minute equal to a Stand Up comedian (3 - 5 laughs per minute). This is something a lot of people struggle with. I've honed it pretty tight.

I also know this game is not about "what" you know as much as it is "who" you know. My acts are not in question, by no means. The way of booking fairs is where ALL of my questions are at.

Gerry, you sound like you might know something about the industry or you just read a lot of books. I'm not sure which because I don't know you. I know the credentials of Robert Smith, he's a worker at fairs. I know the credentials of Danny Doyle, I used to fill in for a mutual friend (Jimmy) back in the 90's at Schullians in Chicago. I know the credentials of Mindpro as I own all of his materials and use it regularly.

I can't say the same for you, therefore, I have no choice but to take your advice with a grain of salt. I hope you will be willing to share something of substance, to give me a reason to give further consideration to your comments otherwise, nothing you say would have any significant meaning.


Best,
Mike
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 1, 2017 08:49AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, Gerry Walkowski wrote:

Very quickly, I looked at your web page and had to dig just to find a mention of you working fairs. When I get there, there’s a picture of you working the streets outside a movie theatre and one of you working on TV. What does that have to do with the fair market?

And then there’s going to be you, with what appears to be a street act. Again, though, is your style of act match up to the type of acts that fairs are looking for?
[/quote]


AH-HA! From the very beginning of this fair discussion and even back to earlier this year with Robert's fair vlog, this has been an initial issue that is VERY misleading. When most people think of or refer to the fair market it is exactly as Gerry does above main attractions, mainstage national headliners, mainstage secondary acts, secondary stage acts, kids stage acts, tent acts, and the eventually down to what Gerry has referred to as "street acts" or grounds acts.

There is SO much magician's mentalities and thinking going on here that are not at all aligned with the fair market. This is the problem when you begin listening to someone who speaks about the fair market without clarification. Danny Doyle gave this issue a distinct and unique opportunity to happen and be rectified/clarified, but as we've all seen, it was not accepted or done, but rather a choosing to just continue an agenda and personal attacks on me instead, not a true desire to help or education or anything to the realities of the fair market.

Most fairs I've worked with book grounds acts locally (however there are a few exceptions). The idea of bringing in, outside acts as a priority or as a main function of these conferences is hilarious to me and has been very misleading. It would be similar to flying in someone from California to do a kids party in Kentucky.

Truth be told, the main events, the things people pay and come to a fair are the main attractions, the headliners, of course the 4-H stuff, and the other popular features and attractions (pig races, rodeo, demolition derby, etc.), Not for the grounds, strolling or street acts.

Besides a lot of magician's mentalities going on here their is a lot of buskers or street performers mentalities going on here, again not aligned at all with the true mentalities of these associations and conferences.

There are several ways to get into fairs on this level that do not have anything to do with these conventions, spending huge amounts on memberships, exhibition booths, travel, lodging, meals, etc.

Simply put, there has been some extremely misleading (not clarified as to the differences and, level and types of acts/attractions) and incorrect information on the fair market, all coming from personal opinions, being passed off here as facts. This is what happens when people accept opinions as fact from someone speaking as an "authority", take it as real, and them begin to make moves and spend money based on this. As Danny has pointed out to Tom many times before here, yielding general non-industry, non-specific advice can be very damaging to someone who follows such general ah-rah advice. Now we see an example of it first hand.

This whole thread was started to discuss coaching. As you can see by this whole fair debacle that has spilled over into this thread, there is a HUGE (I can't begin to tell you how much) RESPONSIBILITY that comes along with being a coach, an advisor, trainer, mentor and consultant, as you are providing insight and information that others are basing their business, careers, life and livelihood on - each and every day. This is a huge responsibility that I don't take lightly. This is why it is soooo important to separate opinion from fact.

We each are responsible for who we choose to listen to, surround ourselves with and what we accept as real or fact. I have said it before, I take a certain responsibility to everyone I work with or coach, and even on the advice I offer here. This is also why when you learn, work and operate from an industry perspective it IS aligned with industry events, industry operations, and industry mentalities, which is different from personal opinions from magicians.

Also is a sub-issue of members lumping Renaissance Fairs in with traditional state and county fairs - again as cbguy will soon discover, two different things, mentalities and approaches. The only commonality is the word "fair" (or faire) in the title.

What Gerry has essentially been saying is education, research and so much more needs to go into this FIRST before jumping in and being aggressive. Some more proper advice would have been to suggest to cbguy, "why don't you come to and attend a fair industry association event or two as an attendee first, to check it out, see what it is, see the exhibits, other vendors, other performers, sessions and everything that makes up these events. To learn and become familiar with the landscape. To take notes, photos, to use this opportunity as an attendee to meet others, begin establishing some relationships, and to learn the lay of the land, the proper playing field BEFORE spending bigger money just "jumping in". To even determine if the fair market is even right or a good match for you". This would have been some sound advice, both encouraging him, yet looking out for his best interests.

One of the things that I get the most messages and emails about is standing up for the unknowing performer (as it pertains to our business operations) and calling out things that I see as incorrect or misleading. If thanks and appreciation were currency, I would be a rich man. I know Danny Doyle gets much of the same type of messages and responses from people as we've discussed it. As someone who has worked the fair market for decades, I am seeing someone here giving out what I would consider very poor, generic, limited, misperceiving and misleading information. Now we are seeing what happens when others accept such advice as real or gospel. It is exactly this that I/we try to prevent here each and every day, and why I was originally asked to be here.

I won't go into Robert's advice and background but by his own admission its taken him 9 years of doing much the same as he proclaims, to just be a grounds act, spewing opinion-based information about the market as if applicable to all performers on all levels. It has been very misleading from the beginning.

I believe cbguy still is accepting advice along these lines and is choosing not to deal in honesty and reality regarding this topic, issue and market. As I always say, be careful to who you listen to! Maybe he and Robert are friends, which I can respect. But he is making some choices that he has to accept and live with.

Now please understand I am not posting this to get a dig into Robert. He seems to be happy with what he's doing and where he's at, which like all of us, that's good for him. You can see his excitement about it. But it becomes a different thing when you begin to position yourself as an authority, offer advice to others, without even any clarification at all in the beginning. I have been struggling with this for a while (as have others I know here have as well) about speaking up as I didn't want this to seem like an agenda towards someone. Not when I see improper information being passed off as fact or authoritative, from someone that admittedly has struggled himself pretty consistently, it raises many questions. When I was told cbguy was following this direction, as several here know, it was very bothersome and almost sickening to me. It is for this reason I am saying this now, because it was in this coaching thread, because I was directly asked by cbguy, and because I've been so proud of the results and actions cbguy has taken as a result of my books and materials. I truly wish him the best of luck with this.

There are soooooooo many good issues to discuss here that could be helpful and beneficial to all. It won't happen because people will focus on the wrong things in this post or even this thread as we have already seen. At he root is performer's not truly seeing themselves at the level they are truly at. All performers are not equal, there are many different levels of performers, and we also see the issue of delusion - someone not being able to be honest with themselves at a foundational level, not seeing how others see and perceive you, and basing everything off of this illegitimate foundation. There is so much more as well to all of this.

We all know what is going to happen, Robert will storm in here chest-pounding, guns-a-blazing defending all of this, attacking and taking jabs at me and avoid the entire meat of the issue as always. The other two likely won't be far behind.

Also cbuy, although it may not be what you want to hear, your 18 years of experience (which you keep mentioning) has little to do when entering into a new professional market. You are essentially taking that performing experience and starting over in a new arena. (Also your performance is only a part of the overall equation). Just because someone has years of experience doesn't necessarily make a transition any easier, quicker or position yourself at an advantage in any real way operationally (which is where the results happen and money is made). Especially with the fair market and it's good ol' boys mentalities. I would lose that perspective right away as it will certainly work against you (some coaching advice as is most of this post). You are entering someone else's well-established home, you are the newbie - understand your position in the equation from the industry perspective. I get performers that send my agencies their promo material all the time saying, "I've done this", "I won this award", I've been doing this for so many years", etc. While it is nice to know (and often more impressive to them) it has little to do with what is of concern and most important to me and my agency and our needs and interests. I often speak about "the shift" when entering a new market or environment, you must shift to that of the fair market if you truly want a chance to succeed. (I will try to respond to your PM later today).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 1, 2017 10:14AM)
Having buskers tell you you're ready and I've fair manager, and some fair acts, and truly believing you are ready does not mean you are. Good luck. I'm not saying you aren't by the wway.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 1, 2017 10:20AM)
Mindpro, Thanks for your response. I appreciate it! Let me try to get some clarification.

1: 18 years of performing experience doesn't mean anything to a new market.
- I understand what you are conveying and that's one of the things I've been trying to get across. Which is why I have been asking the questions I've asked. While it's not 'all" about the act. The act does play a part. That's what people are paying for. You can tell someone their act is not for the market they want to go into all you want. All that does is tells them, their act needs to be changed. Well, "what" needs to be changed? the banter, the effects, the interactions, the comedy? Too many stones are being left unturned in an effort to lock up some all knowing secret advice that's not being communicated. I can tell you a hyp show will fail miserably on the street, but it will be very well received in the renaissance market. So, if a hyp act that's received well in the renaissance market fail in the fair market? Obviously not. You've done your hip act in the fair market and it worked, right? I see hyp acts in a lot of the renaissance festivals I work at. With that understanding, what needs to be changed in a magic act (grounds act) from a rent fest to make it a viable commodity in the fair market?

Do you see what I'm getting at? As a worthy coach, can you shed some light on what is meant by the act is not ready? What are you trying to put a finger on?


2: We do have to back up, just slightly because I have worked a fair in the past. I left this unmentioned because I wanted to see if anything of value was going to be offered or if all the experts would just stand up and speak in tongues without giving anything of useful substance...I worked the Illinois State Fair. However, I did not get that opportunity by way of a convention. I'm choosing the convention as the way to go, now because I'm at the point where I want to settle into this market for the long haul. I choose not to stay in the fair market, only because I took a contract to perform at a theme park, which I kept for a few years. A theme park act needs to be squeaky clean. A Renaissance Festival doesn't. The street doesn't. A fair is somewhere in the middle leaning more towards the theme park model. I've been successful in these markets and I will do very well in the fair market. It's getting into the market by way of the conventions, and that is where my questions are at...not in the act or quality, thereof.


3: Continuing on the topic of the fair market, my issue is not my act. I'm not ignorant, nor am I an idiot, even if I perform as one (see what I did there? that was funny) anyway, I understand way more than you're giving me credit for and if you took the time to ask good questions, you would be in a better position to coach me. Now, I do believe you have the skills to coach, if I didn't I wouldn't have sent you a PM asking if I can hire you as such. Know that minder is your moniker as well as your real identity. I feel you are qualified and knowledgeable and can be very helpful. However, you shouldn't "Assume" from a few paragraphs on this thread that you know all of my experiences, what I know or don't know, etc...You know what they say, "when you assume, you make an a. s. s. out of U & me. If I hire someone as a coach, that means I am very open to their opinions and suggestions. I will take their advice and take action on their advice because I trust them enough to pay them for their knowledge, but I will ask the hard questions and expect that they will invite that kind of slight friction that is known to help the growth process. Just talking about how good someone is at everything starts with a sizzle and ends with a fizzle. I don't need proof of how much you know. I'm already aware of that. I'm looking for someone to help me get to the next level. If you can help, lets do this. If all you want to do is talk about how you can help and how little I know, what good is that to anyone? Seriously! It toxic!

4. Robert has been very helpful. While he's not at my beckon call, he is knowledgeable in the fair market, both as a grounds act as well as a speaker. He puts things in perspective as it is his main source of income. The things he has shared with me have been very helpful and I appreciate him. He has given me action steps that have proven to be useful. I'm now in a position where I need to prepare for the next steps and that's where the frustration comes in. That will change soon.


5. I chimed in here, but all I've heard in response to anything I've asked is huffing and puffing. Most of this thread is fighting about who knows more about what. I stepped in, knowing the risk that I was taking and the possibility that it would turn into school girl drama. Here's the bottom line: I don't give a rats tail how much anyone wants to gloat about themselves to stroke their own ego. You know what I want. I want real help! It's time for the talkers to either put up or shut up. So far, the only person who has been helpful is Robert and that's not just because he's a friend. He was helpful before he was a friend and I asked for help. Let that sink in for a minute.


6: Mindpro, you say you are here to help as a coach. I sent you a PM asking you specifically about coaching. You have not responded to that request so, it seems you are not interested. That's either because you don't want to do it, which is fine, I can understand not everyone is an ideal client or you don't know the industry enough to be helpful to me as a grounds act at a fair. I much rather you say that you can't help or don't want to help rather than just keep going in circles. My time is too valuable to keep reading log posts on a forum when I can be taking steps towards whats really important during that time. If you're not available to assist, I will drop off of this thread as fast as I got on it, to go be proactive, moving towards working the fair market.

What it comes down to is this: If you can help, I'm ready to take action and move forward. If you can't help, then there is no need for a long-winded I'm the all knowing, response. I put my money where my mouth is and take massive actions to make things happen. I don't expect Rome to be built in a day, but I do like to see what it looks like to see the construction underway.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Sep 1, 2017 11:03AM)
Wow! After months of back and forth on this thread, we are really getting into the heart of the intent of the thread - which was to discuss opinions on the value of coaching. Here cbguy seeks exponential growth vs incremental, and finds himself like a duck out of water. This is so familiar to me, as I also am moving rapidly into uncharted waters. We see the short comings from winging it or relying on those who offer some advice but are not in it for the long run. Mindoro shared above something has not yet been discussed, that is the sense of ownership a coach has. This is far different than those who offer podcasts, dvd's, or even courses. This is also different than those who offer 1 time coaching sessions.

The other thing I see playing out here is that the issue goes well beyond the stated concern of "How do I move to a new market". This involves looking at every aspect of ones business under a different lens. For example, how the show is perceived, how the website is perceived, how the stated benefits are perceived. As Mindoro often reminds us here- things that one may present believing to be an advantage, may actually be perceived as a negative.

Cbguy has been so open here, many of us have benefited from his contributions on this thread and others where he offers his website and media events, while showing respect to all. Therefore, I will share a it of my perception about coaching, at least as it relates to being a student of Mindoro as he has stated here that he reached out to him possibly seeking his services.

When I sought Mindpro's services, I did so with a good understanding of the type of coach he would be, based upon several years of communications here. I believed I would need foundational learning on a wide array of topics. I was not looking for advice on fixing a problem or seeking narrow advice such as "How do I get into a new market? Likewise, I believe Mindoro knew I was not looking for a quick fix, which is probably one reason he agreed to work with me. Mindpro's teaching style is such that he makes the student arrive at the answers on their own. If you look closely at his advice here you will see this time and time again. It frustrates the heck out many, who then question his advice and/or accuse him of holding out on everyone. For me, it is exactly what I am looking for. One may recall Danny Doyle posing a potential negative to receiving coaching is that it prevents one from learning from their mistakes. I saw his post as a very real possibility and one we all should be on guard for. I believe this is not a concern for students who work with Mindpro. You can see from his list above though, he is through and believes everything you do is linked, and that you are only as good as your weakest link. That is why his students probably stay with him over time. They too begin to see and understand this. If you feel you are in a bind and need a quick fix, perhaps he is not the right fit. Just as many with experience tend to walk away from the "I was hired to do a show for an audience type I never performed in front of and it's in two weeks, what do I do?, I believe Mindpro will give you the type of advice you don't want to hear. If a quick fix is your only concern, then seek advice from others and roll the dice.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 1, 2017 11:05AM)
Mike by the way you are not the subject of this thread and having an indignant attitude when people don't help as you demand isn't cool.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Sep 1, 2017 11:11AM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Mike by the way you are not the subject of this thread and having an indignant attitude when people don't help as you demand isn't cool. [/quote]
Wow! So true. What a turn of events. He posted while I was typing and my post did not reflect his most recent entry. Clearly, I now believe it is not a good match.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 1, 2017 12:15PM)
Yeah Mike, forget those 18 years of experience performing in front of a wide variety of real live people, which means nothing.
You will need to buy you a ball and vase and start all over. :)

But Seriously, to say that 18 years of experience performing means nothing is a joke. I mean a big JOKE. I can't believe mindpro thinks that.

cbguy, mindpro is like the little girl in the lemonade story, all talk no action, he continues to throw out more questions without
providing any help. My advice is to stick with Robert and his advice, as you know he too was a street performer and he can guide you
better than anybody on here. But in the end it's going to be up to YOU to do what needs to be done.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 1, 2017 01:45PM)
I guess we will see who the joke is after he has spent all that money. Taking encouragement from you who has never done what he is trying is one way to go.

After all your encouragement sure helped Benji SOAR like a little eagle!
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 1, 2017 01:54PM)
Danny, my apologies if I came off like I meant business...but I'm business driven. I don't have the time to lolly-gag and waste time playing games, on this forum.

Mindpro, I appreciate your books. I own them and they are very useful and I'm glad to own and use the information.

WDavis, I appreciate your help and I feel like your suggestions are good ones.

TomBoleware, you are 100% correct and I appreciate your encouragement. Robert is clearly the most knowledgeable guy on the topic I brought up and I will be chatting with him again shortly.

I'm checking out of this conversation, so y'all can get back to whatever it is you were arguing about before I chimed in.


Peace!
Mike
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 1, 2017 01:57PM)
Mike it is understandable. You are a real person real money with VERY real consequences. It is understandable that you be focused. I would worry if you were not.

But I get confused why those who have not done this ever try to guide others with bad advice.

Which is why I said I hoped Robert would chime in.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Sep 1, 2017 01:58PM)
I'm willing to predict that with Roberts help, Mike will do very well.

I do love Mindpros advice on going to a fair conference and getting a feel for the industry before jumping in. This is applicable to other markets as well such as performing arts conferences, amusement industry, etc.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 1, 2017 02:05PM)
Sitting backstage here at the Nebraska State Fair. Lynyrd Skynyrd is about to start sound check. Going to be a sick show tonight.

Mike, you're a professional. You've read all the information here. You decide for yourself.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 1, 2017 02:11PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, thomasR wrote:
I'm willing to predict that with Roberts help, Mike will do very well.

I do love Mindpros advice on going to a fair conference and getting a feel for the industry before jumping in. This is applicable to other markets as well such as performing arts conferences, amusement industry, etc. [/quote]


Just so it's clear that I don't just come in guns a blazing ready to go at mindpro? This actually isn't terrible advice.
In fact I have already given a number of rookie performers one of my extra badges at IAFE so they could come see it for themselves and get ideas.

For seasoned performers I'm more likely to suggest they go all in.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 1, 2017 02:33PM)
...and for the record, I did the same thing as Robert, in that I gave one of my extra badges for the IAFE to a friend who is interested.

I ave two badges left, so if someone is interested in getting into the fair market, let me know and I will give you a badge to get into the convention in Las Vegas, this November.

Furthermore, if anyone wants to learn how to busk or is interested in getting into renaissance festivals, let me know and I will help you in every way I can and like Robert, I will never charge you a dime for my help.

...but please send these things in a pm, so we don't hijack this thread.


Take care,
Mike
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Sep 1, 2017 03:49PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, cbguy wrote:
Robert is clearly the most knowledgeable guy on the topic I brought up and I will be chatting with him again shortly.
Mike [/quote]

This gets to the heart of the thread topic. Who is best to guide our actions? Mike mentioned Don Driver in a post. I I were seeking to make a NFL team, Don Driver would be a great resource because he played at that level. He knows what it took him to get there. If however, I had a choice between Don and a talent agent, coach or GM, Don would be last on my list. Why? Because his perspective is limited in relative terms. He may not have the proper skill sets to guide others. He may be uncomfortable being candid with me about my chances of success, while the other three choices do that sort of thing every day.

So in this case, while Robert has personal experience, and has shown a willingness to share and guide others, I would still choose an agent, fair market talent scout or buyer over a performer.

The whole point is to increase ones odds of success to the highest degree. A fellow performer who made it is a step forward and will greatly increase ones potential. I would still seek one with broader fair experience if possible.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 1, 2017 04:31PM)
LOL...Don Driver was a magician, escape artist and most notably a Svengali pitchman, before he passed away earlier this year.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 1, 2017 04:32PM)
Don Driver was a pitchman that worked fairs, festivals, etc.


Edit, we posted at the same time about Don. LOL

Tom
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 1, 2017 06:07PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, Cafécheckers wrote:
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, cbguy wrote:
Robert is clearly the most knowledgeable guy on the topic I brought up and I will be chatting with him again shortly.
Mike [/quote]

This gets to the heart of the thread topic. Who is best to guide our actions? Mike mentioned Don Driver in a post. I I were seeking to make a NFL team, Don Driver would be a great resource because he played at that level. He knows what it took him to get there. If however, I had a choice between Don and a talent agent, coach or GM, Don would be last on my list. Why? Because his perspective is limited in relative terms. He may not have the proper skill sets to guide others. He may be uncomfortable being candid with me about my chances of success, while the other three choices do that sort of thing every day.

So in this case, while Robert has personal experience, and has shown a willingness to share and guide others, I would still choose an agent, fair market talent scout or buyer over a performer.

The whole point is to increase ones odds of success to the highest degree. A fellow performer who made it is a step forward and will greatly increase ones potential. I would still seek one with broader fair experience if possible. [/quote]

My man, you may believe this, but your actions speak very differently.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Sep 1, 2017 07:05PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
My man, you may believe this, but your actions speak very differently. [/quote]
Come again?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 1, 2017 07:48PM)
Hearing the name Don Driver reminded me of the time I meet him years ago. It was sometimes in the 80's that we meet and we chatted for a long time about how hard working outdoor events can be. I knew what he was doing was hard work because I had worked with a carnival during a summer in the 70’s called the mighty blue grass shows ( I believe that’s the right name) I didn’t work all summer but did stay long enough to find out how hot it can get under a tent. But anyway, Don seemed like a very nice guy. We swapped a couple of messages online a couple of years ago and he remembered me from way back then.

Ok, that’s my flashback for the day. Back on topic.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 3, 2017 12:44PM)
Since it's a holiday weekend I thought I would share a quick and uplifting story.

Over the course of this thread Cafécheckers has posted some of his experience and feelings of coaching with me. Although its only been such a short time, I think he feels major insight, learning and progress since working together. I see when he does try to share some of his excitement and experience, it isn't always accepted here perhaps as he intends or hopes, or it hasn't triggered the discussion he hoped to by doing so. These have been his perspectives as it related to him, his successes and progress.

However, after our most recent session a couple of days ago, I thought I would share something - a small 15 - maybe 20 second segment of our last session. (I was going to post this after our session, but the thread went in a different direction with trying to assist cbguy and his current immediate situation.)

So our session is over and we are wrapping up telling each other thank you and to have a great week, when very quickly I say something to him just in passing, as a quick last minute comment. The content isn't really important, but after I offered this information there was silence...followed by "WOW! That was amazing. That is exactly the type of thing that I could only get from you and your coaching!"

It was only a quick throwaway bit of info, but it had a huge impact on him. It was information he couldn't or wouldn't get from anywhere else, and he quickly realized it and stated it.

You could ask all 65,753 members of the Café, and most performers he knows or has ever met, and he couldn't have gotten this type of industry information from any of them. And that was just a passing comment, not even part of our actual session.

I bring this up to hopefully once again offer some insight into his coaching with me, and from my side of our sessions which while private, I thought I would share generally without specifics. It is another benefit and advantage to our coaching that he could not get from anywhere else or find in any other resources or publications for performers or our industry. Progress happens, even when we're just saying goodbye.

I know some here have struggled with trying to understand why he wants coaching or the benefits to working with a coach (my coaching is all I can speak of, not all or others) and ths is just anothrer of those examples.
Message: Posted by: RobertSmith (Sep 7, 2017 11:40PM)
I can't even take this seriously anymore.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 8, 2017 12:14AM)
I can't imagine you ever did.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Sep 11, 2017 10:44AM)
[quote]On Sep 7, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
I can't even take this seriously anymore. [/quote]

You are not alone by any means, and that is unfortunate. Not so much for the purposes of coaching, but more so just in the way people choose to participate here. Coming here without ego can do wonders for ones career advancement. When I first joined TMC, Tricky Business was filled with discussions that were varied and vibrant. People came here with novel marketing ideas looking for feedback, website critique advice, discussions on approaching various markets, marketing tools, work ethics,and so many other vibrant discussions. I took some time this weekend to go back and look at them. It was eye opening to see how many used to join in and offer opinions, advice, experience, concerns, warnings, motivation and such. In general (not always) there was a understanding we were not all on the same level with respect to our achievement, understanding, breadth and depth of experience. The idea that there were those contributing who had insights unique to themselves was not a foreign notion because many had experiences beyond operating as a solo performer. Yes there was disagreement, tension at times and a fair bit of non-sense, but it did not seem to dominate the pages the way it does today.

That was six years ago. In the past three or so years, the discussions have dwindled as have the number of individuals contributing and the discussion topics. We seem incapable of discussing ideas without counter personal attacks. This takes discussions well off course.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Sep 11, 2017 01:09PM)
"Coming here without ego can do wonders for ones career advancement."

Which is why some of us are constantly annoyed at mindpros ego. He just told us that he gave you advice that no one else on this forum could have given you. That's the biggest pile of BS I've read on this forum (and that's saying something).
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 11, 2017 02:03PM)
I literally came into this thread hoping for the best and being prepared for the worst. I read through every line, which spans over 15 pages and what I discovered is this thread had "NO" real advice or anything helpful, what-so-ever. What it does have is a bunch of gloating and it reads like an extra long Dave Dee, sales letter...all fluff and no meat.

Now, with that said, I do own Mindpro's three books and they are filled with good, useful information which has proven to be helpful to me, but...

The only person here, who didn't boast about themselves but rather actually offered "HELP" is Robert Smith...just saying!

A lot of insecurities and inflated ego's seem to monopolize this section of the Café...it's sad really!

I am thankful for the few people who I have become friends with on the Café. It's only a handful, but then again, there is likely just a few over a handful who are actual workers on here, these days anyway.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 11, 2017 02:37PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, thomasR wrote:
"Coming here without ego can do wonders for ones career advancement."

Which is why some of us are constantly annoyed at mindpros ego. He just told us that he gave you advice that no one else on this forum could have given you. That's the biggest pile of BS I've read on this forum (and that's saying something). [/quote]


Whoosh!

There is so much incorrect about his post.

Yes, it really is too bad.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 11, 2017 06:31PM)
I don't have a dog in this fight either way so I really don't care.

What is interesting is how simply disagreeing with someone means automatically they have huge ego issues. Plus they are stupid. THAT is what takes over this section of the Café.

Nobody is allowed to have another viewpoint. Nobody is allowed to have another way to do things. Everyone has to whip it out and measure.

I don't think Mike will be very successful with Simple Simon. Does it matter? NO! He has his plan, he is a pro, I respect that. Not hard to do really.

I have been wrong before, and will be again. It doesn't matter. Even if I disagree I wish him the best and if I can help I will. All that is important is he experiences success. Not whether my opinion is right or wrong.

That is only one example.

You guys get back to measuring now.

As for a coach sure the right one can help.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 11, 2017 06:51PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I don't have a dog in this fight either way so I really don't care.[/quote]

That's the point, it shouldn't be a fight. It doesn't have to be this way. Someone posted on a topic they were interested in and creating a discussion about. Some come here intentionally looking for stir things up or to push a fight. I've never understood why people post if the topic isn't applicable to them or they have nothing to add other than opinion. Especially here in Tricky Business.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 11, 2017 10:28PM)
LOL... I like the dig! It was put in there casually. Mike has done really good as Mike for 15 years and things got better for Mike once Simple Simon came along and at this point, the futures so bright, he's gotta wear shades.

BTW, I want to make it clear that Davis was helpful as well...and he did not boast either. Just wanted to clarify that.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 11, 2017 10:45PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, cbguy wrote:
LOL... I like the dig! It was put in there casually. Mike has done really good as Mike for 15 years and things got better for Mike once Simple Simon came along and at this point, the futures so bright, he's gotta wear shades.

BTW, I want to make it clear that Davis was helpful as well...and he did not boast either. Just wanted to clarify that. [/quote]

No dig. If anything it is a dig at ME! Not seeing what you see and me being wrong. Please read what I wrote again.

No dig at Mike because I know first hand where you came from. How could I possibly say that was not success?

No need to be defensive. Please accept my apology.

I will HAPPILY be wrong! As I said I want nothing but success for you.

Which brings us to another problem here is the miss reading of posts.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 11, 2017 11:27PM)
As I said, it's amazing how things are taken as one chooses rather than what is truly offered and intended. What amazes me how how Danny & I both were trying to assist you Mike and speak up on your behalf. I think you are taking several things wrongly. The whole reason after months I spoke up against Robert is because there are some here who didn't want to see you get misdirected, misinformed and lose, time, effort, the great deal of money you are putting into play, and trust. I think this is obvious by how we've tried to be helpful and present you with a bigger picture and understanding both here and via PMs. If you choose not to heed the information being offered that is one thing and totally up to you, but to state anything other than that by those trying to help you seems quite wrong.

I have also re-read this entire thread and there is certainly some VERY useful and helpful info here. If you chose not to see or accept it, that does not mean it doesn't exist.

Seems most here are routing for you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 12:54AM)
I will say one thing.

The "idea" of having information that ONLY can be gleaned from ONE person on the planet is a little hard to swallow. It is a MAJOR claim to back up.

While I know exactly what you are trying to say, I am not certain those were the best words to express the sentiment.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 01:32AM)
One more thing to say, just so it is said.

Having an opinion on whether something will or not work and to what degree it will work is fine. We all have that and all discuss it and cool.

BUT don't let ANYONE tell you not to follow your heart. Even if you are wrong, find it out for YOURSELF! You are not living "my dream" you are living YOURS! I can have any opinion I want and it should mean NOTHING to you as to if you pursue it. Please NOBODY interpret anything I say as not thinking you should move forward.

If someone looked at me 30 years ago and I had listened to the MANY who told me I was nuts I would be wanting to hang myself. I have had failures along the way and made serious mistakes. But not bad considering at a couple points I wasn't even supposed to be alive.

Reality will seep in at it's own pace. If we don't try, and don't make small mistakes, we are destined to make really huge ones. Don't be afraid to try. It is the only way we learn. I applaud Mike for having the courage to try. Often it is only that courage that will separate success from mediocrity.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 06:14AM)
I have always said that forums such as this are a place for opinions; books and one on one discussion is where you get your facts.

Still, a variety of ‘opinions’ can be good for those looking to weight the options. Some like choices so they can make up their own mind. You can’t force advice on people anyway, besides, it’s a lot like William Arthur Ward said; “The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires.”

So if you really want to help someone, inspire them to find the answers on their own. Don’t just insist that your way is the only way or insist on you getting the credit for their success.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 12, 2017 08:40AM)
Wow, things are really being taken way off course. Thomasr's post was simply offered incorrect information. First, I never once said I gave charliecheckers any advice. I have not spoken to eevn posted/PM's an exchange with him since last year I believe. So this is incorrect.

Secondly, there was no ego involved here at all. If anything it was just the opposite. It was a humbled moment I choose to share for the benefit of the topic. Up to this point Cafécheckers had been writing about his experience in coaching as his interests in others experience on the topic. Much was shared from his perspective as a student/client and the why, how and benefits he has received. Since some were still struggling with understanding the coaching topic, I though I would share a glimpse from the other inside perspective, from the coach's perspective. I offered what was a very impactful moment that happened. It was a beautiful thing as it also showed the type of thing he gets from coaching he feels he couldn't get anyhere else. It was they type of thing that makes the coaching relationship so special and most of all beneficial.

It was also content he couldn't have received anywhere else and he identified that and his appreciation for it in his sentiments. As with the vast majority of what I teach, train and share in my coaching, it is not content available or published elsewhere. This has nothing to to do with ego, but simply a fact which was also recognized in the moment by the student. I'm not sure how this is seen as ego from either of us, and why it is being taken out of content and rubs others the wrong way.

There is a difference between ego and confidence based on experience, pride and fact.

Same for above, charliecheckers made some great observations which he chose to share here. He made some very real and true points in that post regarding the current state of Tricky Business (similar to what WDavis did a few months ago in an attempt to try to get TB back to its former place). Points that have changed the tone, progress and benefits of the Tricky Business section. As many of us here we take great pride in this forum and its contents and progress. I see no need for the type of activity, agendas, bias and negativity created by some members here (usually only 4-5 people), twisting the context and content of whats being said, not even attempting to understand the information that is being offered and shared, and then offering opinion-based posts and attacks based on the these twisted and self-generated misperception and understandings.

Its happening regularly. Threads and posts that could be so productive and beneficial being derailed into this path of negativity and agenda. I know its keeping people away because they then PM me with content and questions that should be part of the forum, but are afraid to post or be ridiculed.

If you don't care for a topic or even someone's insight or contributions, great, then don't read their posts. I do it, others do it and all is fine. But to feel the need to complain, create perceptions that have never been offered, to change context and to twist things to your own beliefs and benefit is actually the exact opposite of the benefit of this forum.

As I said, it amazes me how someone can take a very simple but great moment that was trying to be shared for everyone's benefit, and twist it into something negative with completely different meaning. Its sad and this all really needs to stop.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Sep 12, 2017 09:19AM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, cbguy wrote:
I literally came into this thread hoping for the best and being prepared for the worst. I read through every line, which spans over 15 pages and what I discovered is this thread had "NO" real advice or anything helpful, what-so-ever. What it does have is a bunch of gloating and it reads like an extra long Dave Dee, sales letter...all fluff and no meat.[/quote]
Here is an excerpt from a post from Mindpro from page three, where he shared in great detail all the things to consider when considering to seek a coach as well as his personal approach.
[quote] Many come to get a far greater understanding of the business of live entertainment. How to scale and grow your business other than by just booking more gigs. They quickly realize entertainment business is far different from conventional business. Some want to learn the many different facets of the business. "How do I go into an elementary school and earn $2500-$3500 a show? Do I give them the quick answer? No. I educate and teach them about the educational market in every facet so when they get the answer they know and fully understand all of the whys, when, who, what and hows. More than just giving them what they think they need. More times than not what they think they need and what they are really asking for are very different things. [/quote]
This post was very on topic and informative to those who wonder what coaching can offer. It also was likely eye opening to some to realize there is a lot to consider when running ones own business.This paragraph alone should have informed you that he was not a match for the type of help you seek, which in itself is informative. It could have saved you (and him) the trouble of pm's and such.

[quote] Now, with that said, I do own Mindpro's three books and they are filled with good, useful information which has proven to be helpful to me, but...[/quote]
With all the negative attention to Mindpro, interestingly, I never see anyone criticizing his advice. The fact that you are a big enough person to add this statement to your post speaks really well of you.

[quote]The only person here, who didn't boast about themselves but rather actually offered "HELP" is Robert Smith...just saying![/quote]

Given your situation and belief in yourself, Robert seems like someone who can give you a leg up.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 11:20AM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
I have always said that forums such as this are a place for opinions; books and one on one discussion is where you get your facts.

Still, a variety of ‘opinions’ can be good for those looking to weight the options. Some like choices so they can make up their own mind. You can’t force advice on people anyway, besides, it’s a lot like William Arthur Ward said; “The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires.”

So if you really want to help someone, inspire them to find the answers on their own. Don’t just insist that your way is the only way or insist on you getting the credit for their success.

Tom [/quote]

I don't mind opinions. I don't mind other opinions contrary to mine.

Where I go down a different road is when opinion is offered based on no experience. When that happens it gets bad.

Also I don't like it when people offer uninformed opinion as if it were fact, or 40 year old opinion that wasn't even valid then and try to tell someone that they can implement it and it costs them money. This happens way too often here on this board. I get too many PMs from people who tried things they are told and lose big. It is one thing to inspire and encourage and it is another to cost someone real money in real life. Then they are too embarrassed to come on here and explain that they failed. Then the same who encouraged them in the first place tell them to keep going and going and losing more and more. It is a spiral and for some a very bad one.

Which is the most sad part. Failure here is looked at as something to be embarrassed about and not something to learn from. What happens when people fail here they slink away into the woods and don't post. If they do post again they almost never claim they failed or didn't meet expectations. Everyone is a huge success from day one. How ridiculous. Heck every time I sit with Bannachek, Todd Robbins, Docc Hillford, Bob Sheets and so forth all we DO is tell stories about how this or that went wrong! It would seem we are the biggest failures on the planet.

Have you ever seen a thread here where someone says they tried this and it didn't work but I learned X? Of course not. Which is sad. Ask me about Key Largo! They were staying away in droves! I wanted to hire a bouncer to throw people INTO the place. Anyone think I didn't work in Branson because the bank wasn't big enough to hold all my money? I have mentioned these failures and others before. I embrace them and learn from them.

And I am not talking about being encouraging "through" failure but learning FROM failure. If you want to coach or teach someone then prepare them for life. Life is not all success and it is how we deal with not succeeding that makes us who we are. How do we deal with hitting a plateau? How do you push past and get more than is given? These are the things in my view a coach should be doing. Not helping with your specific business.

I know almost nothing that nobody else does. But I don't need to in order to teach someone to be realistic and how to push that reality further than most think it should go. I would never hire a coach for a business plan. I would hire one to move me to do the best with that plan I could. I would be suspicious of a coach who thought he knew everything about everyone's business anyhow.
Message: Posted by: cbguy (Sep 12, 2017 11:51AM)
I can certainly admit to failures...There have been plenty and without them, I wouldn't be where I am today.

...and since I mentioned the subject of help. I can count the people who have been helpful over the years on one hand.

Here is a list:

1. Bob Brown
2. Celeste (Evans) Bryene
3. Jimmy Kryszac (I know I spelled his last name wrong, but he would just make a joke about it)
4. Don Driver
5. Robert Smith

One of the things I've learned from my failures is what to look for in someone that is trustworthy and truly helpful. Two key features that everyone on my list have in common is they all displayed humbleness and gratitude. I'm not saying anything negative about anyone who has contributed here. What I am saying is in Robert, I see the attributes that I also seen in the first four people on the list above. That instantly gets my respect and attention.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 12:06PM)
Danny, it is a FACT you don’t respect anybody’s opinion that doesn’t agree with your own, if you did then you would never start with the crap about their ‘uninformed’ opinion. You have proven it over and over, so please don’t pretend you haven’t, and that your not known as the master attacker here. You love attacking those that don't agree with you, period.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 12:21PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, it is a FACT you don’t respect anybody’s opinion that doesn’t agree with your own, if you did then you would never start with the crap about their ‘uninformed’ opinion. You have proven it over and over, so please don’t pretend you haven’t, and that your not known as the master attacker here. You love attacking those that don't agree with you, period.


Tom [/quote]

From the #1 uninformed opinion in the world.

The only FACT is your opinion I do not respect in the least.

I disagree with Robert on occasion and respect his opinion. Why? Because he is out there ACTUALLY DOING IT! Same with Mike. Unlike you.

And by the way YOU made this an attack. I never mentioned you until you attacked me and told lies. Go figure.

Go get some experience and we can talk about it.

Canyou please stop attacking me? You claim it is what I do while you are doing it. Please stop. It is a FACT you just came at me for no reason. No need. Just stop please.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 12:53PM)
Danny, you just got through saying above, “I don't mind opinions. I don't mind other opinions contrary to mine.” So please go back and change that.

And yes you were including me, you constantly do and you ALWAYS question whatever I say. Makes no difference what it is. I recommend Robert here to Mike and you didn’t like that. As for as my experience, I have explained it several times in detail how I have more than fifty years experience in some form of magic. I have performed as a professional and a part-timer, I owned a magic shop for ten years, I founded a long running magic club, I have taught magic lessons, and I have a book on magic, sold a copy yesterday and received a great comment on it today. I have been involved in magic in one way or the other nearly all my life. Not to mention that I have more business experience in a wide variety of businesses than you can imagine. I have made millions in business, but unlike some I don't come here to brag about what all I have done.

Now does that make me as good as you in magic, no of course it doesn’t, but my opinion should still be allowed here without having to hear how you don't like it. It would be easy for you to not to respond to every thing I say, but you can't do it. You just can't.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 01:02PM)
Who is attacking again? I did not mention you in my post Tom. Sorry the world does not revolve around you.

I also recommend Robert. How can you say I don't like that? Are you feeling ok?

You don't come here to brag about what you have done, yet you can't stop talking about what you supposedly have done.

Your made up experience means little to nothing.

Can you please stop attacking and making up lies? This thread has nothing to do with you. Hard for you to imagine but true.

It seems as if YOU are the one who has trouble not responding. But you are irony impaired I guess.
Watch you respond now. It will be funny.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 01:06PM)
[quote]On Aug 31, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Aug 31, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I see,

So basically, the worry is coming from walking in blind to the convention and not being familiar with relationship selling.
So lets fix that, working a convention is the same regardless of the industry:

[/quote]

This is perhaps the MOST expensive advice I have ever seen written on this board.

Hopefully Robert will chime in.

But it seriously is not as easy as take them out for coffee. [/quote]

See Tom? This is me hoping Robert chines in. How can you say I don't like you recommending him to talk to?

That is either a lie or a reading comprehension problem you have.

So an apology might be in order. I don't hold my breath.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 01:36PM)
You right about that post, you were attaching Walter’s ‘opinion’ there and not mine.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 02:07PM)
And recommending Robert.

Apology from you for telling lies?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 02:29PM)
Yep, you recommend Robert, and that was good.

I recommended Robert too, but you insist mine is just an uninformed lack of experience opinion.

Oh well,

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 03:00PM)
So no apology for the lie. Thought so.

Can't even be an adult and admit a mistake. No wonder nobody takes you seriously.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 03:13PM)
There was no lie Danny. I never said that you didn’t recommend Robert.
I Said 'I' recommended him, and you went on to say that you didn’t respect anything I said.
See how you twist things. It's almost funny.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 03:24PM)
"I recommend Robert here to Mike and you didn’t like that."

A DIRECT quote from you and this is a lie. Use all the bs excuses you want Tom it is a lie.

Yet another thread Tom drags off into the swamp and drowns with his bs.
Message: Posted by: WDavis (Sep 12, 2017 03:49PM)
I think I can understand Danny's reservations from my statement as words can illicit unforeseen responses.

As I understand it, Danny's concerns of people blindly taking advise from random sources and costing them their livelihood or family well being stems from genuine concern for people. This is a good thing. I also am of the same concern, which is why I focus on providing principles of approach rather than a recipe of actions. Using the example above, I focused on the core principles of the actions at each possible stage. In other words, I focus on providing the underlying foundation rather then just providing a recipe of steps.

My approach in doing so is because I believe people need to earn their gain and not just get spoon fed answers. This will let them appreciate their results. Furthermore, I can see how it could create the reaction Danny had of "it being more then just taking them for a cup of coffee" he is correct it is, but I can't hold someone's hand all the way thru when they network at a mixer, convention, trade show, event, etc. and it is just like I wouldn't hold someone's hand thru their own magic show.

I was once questioned whether I was positioning myself to be a guru and sell something to magicians, I responded that I wasn't going to. I think I'll be clear here as to my reasons for not doing so, apart from fulfilling a promise to Bob Cassidy and teaching magicians the business side of things, I don't believe the majority of magicians can actually think critically despite how much they claim to be clever. See my reasoning is based on the fact magicians follow prescriptions of techniques to reproduce effects. Very few are actually capable of transcending the technique. And techniques are many but principles are few. Which has led to much of the fighting here in tricky, fighting over techniques without understanding the principles that govern the techniques.

This is why I said it's the same regardless of the industry, the principles that govern effective networking are the same, did I plainly state the principles? No, but I tried to show them clearly, if the reader takes the time to think critically about what I said and how it's used in their scenario. I will excuse myself again.

And if people are offended that I am saying most don't think critically, I really don't care that's your opinion of me. As for opinions, mine is most don't think critically and get caught up in bs that doesn't matter and just wastes time energy and money.

Walter
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 03:52PM)
Danny,

My words, “My advice is to stick with Robert and his advice, as you know he too was a street performer and he can guide you better than anybody on here. But in the end it's going to be up to YOU to do what needs to be done.”

Your words on the very next post, “I guess we will see who the joke is after he has spent all that money. Taking encouragement from you who has never done what he is trying is one way to go.”

Please tell me Danny, why my advice was so wrong?

Show me anywhere on here where I have ever offered anyone bad advice. You can't. What I try to do here is encourage others to do their very best at what it is they do. That is all that I do.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 03:53PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, TomBoleware wrote:

Show me anywhere on here where I have ever offered anyone bad advice. You can't. What I try to do here is encourage others to do their very best at what it is they do. That is all that I do.


Tom [/quote]
You encourage without even knowing what it is you are encouraging. THAT is expensive advice.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 12, 2017 04:01PM)
Tom, you are advising someone on who to listen to (and who not to) about the fair market based on you having no knowledge or experience yourself in the market (I don't mean doing a fair or two yourself if you ever did). So it is advising someone from a position of nothing other than your own personal opinion or belief. That can be offering direction and encouragement that can do damage. It's one thing to talk about something you don't know or do/have not experienced yourself, but to then advise and encourage can be very damaging.

That is the point trying to be made.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 04:17PM)
Oh I get it, I am not qualified to ‘recommend’ someone that I think would be a good fit.
Even someone that I have known for about 20 years.

Exactly how many years of experience do you need to ‘recommend’ someone else?

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 04:44PM)
Make up more bs now.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Sep 12, 2017 04:53PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, WDavis wrote: I focus on providing the underlying foundation rather then just providing a recipe of steps. Walter [/quote]

I agree with this as well as the general content of your post.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 05:00PM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Make up more bs now. [/quote]

What did I make up?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 05:01PM)
That it upset me you recommended Robert.

That, like almost everything you past is drastically uninformed and a lie.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 05:18PM)
Maybe I need to start putting a disclaimer on all my posts.

“Warning these words of encouragement may ruin your life.”

Or something like that. Second thought, nah I don't think so.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 12, 2017 05:23PM)
It's a shame you take this so lightly.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Sep 12, 2017 05:48PM)
That’s what happens when it all becomes a joke.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Sep 12, 2017 05:53PM)
No that is what happens when you try push an agenda at all costs.

Your posts should come with a warning yes. "My alleged experience is 40 years old and I was never able to become anything following my own advice 24 hours a day 7 days a week. How can you expect to do better?"
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Sep 13, 2017 09:20AM)
[quote]On Sep 12, 2017, cbguy wrote:
...and since I mentioned the subject of help. I can count the people who have been helpful over the years on one hand.
Here is a list:
1. Bob Brown
2. Celeste (Evans) Bryene
3. Jimmy Kryszac (I know I spelled his last name wrong, but he would just make a joke about it)
4. Don Driver
5. Robert Smith
One of the things I've learned from my failures is what to look for in someone that is trustworthy and truly helpful. Two key features that everyone on my list have in common is they all displayed humbleness and gratitude. I'm not saying anything negative about anyone who has contributed here. What I am saying is in Robert, I see the attributes that I also seen in the first four people on the list above. That instantly gets my respect and attention. [/quote]
You have a very short list. Whose fault is that?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Sep 19, 2017 07:22AM)
Some good observations throughout this thread from charliecheckers I must say, especially in his findings of the current state of Tricky Business based on his recent research and reflection.

As far as the topic of this thread, you should really gain a true understanding of what coaching is and then must decide if it is for you or not. No, all coaches are not the same - in approach or in content, so finding the right coach for you is perhaps most important. It is really quite simple. However, thinking you know or can find all the answers yourself on your own, not to mention a structure, is quite limiting and perhaps even unrealistic for many looking for more immediate progress, direction or solutions without committing maybe a decade of time to try to figure it out on their own. And if you do, even then, you likely will not know as much as you may think you do. Just putting in the time does not give or assure you knowledge or the info you may be seeking.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Sep 19, 2017 09:52AM)
In forming my decision to pursue entertainment full time upon graduating from school I had to take a hard look at the numbers. Looking at what it costs to own a home, car, invest in retirement, life insurance, disability insurance, healthcare, dental, children, food, clothing, cell phone, utilities, home insurance, auto insurance, tax bills, medical bills, pharmacy costs (and the list goes on) was intimidating and a reality check. I had to be honest with myself and say that unless I created a new approach, I would not likely be able to cover such expenses by just doing more of the same. I know there are many who have landed on the same space and chose to work another job full time and entertain part time. Still others choose to do without some of the items I listed or have another (ex: wife, husband) pay for them. For me, the right thing to do was conceptualize ways to grow diversly in a structured way and hire someone to offer assistance. The fact that I already knew who the right person was made the decision a whole lot easier.
Perhaps a broader question to ask here is: When an honest assesment of current business leaves one short of their needs or desires, what do they do to address it?
Message: Posted by: philraso (Oct 1, 2017 08:25PM)
[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, cbguy wrote:
I literally came into this thread hoping for the best and being prepared for the worst. I read through every line, which spans over 15 pages and what I discovered is this thread had "NO" real advice or anything helpful, what-so-ever. What it does have is a bunch of gloating and it reads like an extra long Dave Dee, sales letter...all fluff and no meat.
[/quote]

Made me laugh. I knew Dave before he was selling marketing magic. Love it when so many people post nothing around here.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 1, 2017 09:33PM)
Like your last post for example?
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jan 6, 2018 10:23PM)
I am excited with my 2018 outlook, as so much of my business plan is unfolding. I spent significant time, money and effort in 2017 to redefine my show and business model. This was necessary when I made the commitment to myself to pursue an entertainment based business as my career late in 2016. At that time, I knew I would benefit from coaching from Mindpro for many reasons.

I have successfully created a detailed business plan to pave my way. Much of what I have worked on last year will become more visible this year as my business grows. Mindpro has been an integral part of the process, being extremely generous with his time, experience and wisdom. Reading the recent threads in Tricky Business brings out the many factors one has to consider for long term success. The advice one receives from others is so much more valuable when the person sharing it knows your strengths, weaknesses, personal desires and limitations, and of course financial and life goals. Perhaps above all else, I am excited with the relationship Mindpro and I have developed. I owe much of that to his kindness. I am fortunate that someone with such broad and deep knowledge has taken a genuine interest in my success. Those seeking coaching would be lucky to find such an individual.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 7, 2018 02:23PM)
Yes, 2018 looks like it should be a fantastic year for many, including everyone I have been working with. What's amazing about Cafécheckers is he has taken his business in just this past 12 months to a point that the majority of other performers would take 3-5 years to get to once making their initial decision, and that's while still being a full-time student! While I can provide the experience, knowledge, insight, and guidance, it is the understanding, implementing and taking action that gets the results.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 20, 2018 08:27PM)
I just wanted to share a recent update and see if others who have been involved with coaching have perspectives to share as well.

I have been attending College in persuit of a degree in Entrepreneurship while simultaneously receiving coaching weekly from Mindpro. One of the interesting similarities between the two is that both offer broad knowledge. While my coaching with Mindpro is more specificity directed towards my business, his approach remains broad and deep.The more I work with him, the more I appreciate this aspect of his teachings. For example, we recently spoke at length about the closing of ToysRUs. The causes, the societal impact and what it might mean (and what one can learn) that applies to an entertainment business that is directed towards children. It was an amazing conversation. It leaves me rich in historical perspectives I would not otherwise have. While coming here to post an update and scrolling this page to get to the message box, I spotted this quote:

[quote]On Sep 11, 2017, cbguy wrote:
I literally came into this thread hoping for the best and being prepared for the worst. I read through every line, which spans over 15 pages and what I discovered is this thread had "NO" real advice or anything helpful, what-so-ever. What it does have is a bunch of gloating and it reads like an extra long Dave Dee, sales letter...all fluff and no meat.[/quote]

I think it reveals a difference in the perceived needs and expectations one has regarding their development. Some only want very specific information which will get them one step further. cbguy says this thread is “all fluff and no meat”. Perhaps if you came looking for a slice of deli meat - I would agree. If you are interested in a calf with desires of raising cattle for meat, you will see a great deal of value in this thread. The same is true for Coaching with Mindpro, except that he also provides plenty of “deli meat” while the calf matures.

I am now much more able to follow my business plan with proper priorities in a focused way. I have developed much better capabilities to self evaluate my current level of proficiency in every aspect of my business, including: booking processes, show creation and delivery, website purpose and development, and overall business model. It does feel like getting an advanced degree.

Much like obtaining an advanced degree in any endeavor, it is not necessary, desirable or practical for everyone. For me, it is a huge asset!

It would be great to hear from others who are newer to performing or entertaining to get different perspectives and understand what they are using to increase their knowledge.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 20, 2018 09:41PM)
I would be interested in how your coaching (both private and through college) has helped you in your real world business of performing.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 22, 2018 06:57AM)
Good question. I thought I provided some examples, but I will try to provide a more through answer this weekend.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 26, 2018 09:01AM)
My weekend was crazy busy and I want to adequately answer thomasR, so I will get to this no later than Wednesday.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 29, 2018 02:56AM)
While composing my post, I realized it would probably make more sense to share my thoughts via video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBue5RTUSgg&feature=youtu.be
I hope this better explains the benefits I am having through coaching.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 29, 2018 04:57PM)
First of all.. great video. Nicely produced, and you have great presentation / public speaking skills.

But... I'm still quite confused what the coaching has actually gotten you. Unless I missed something...

Branded Props. Was that mindpro's idea? Or he helped you get the props or encouraged you on the path? Certainly being unique in your market is good. Wheather I am getting a custom made prop, or purchasing one, I am always thinking about how it fits my brand and image. So yeah... good thinking.

Scholarship / Fellowship
I'm sorry but crediting Mindpro for these seems to be a huge stretch. Scholarships and business fellowships exist for people like you. Did mindpros letter help? Sure... but I'm pretty sure your past experiences (performances at the white house, etc.) would / did help just as much. Did you submit any other letters of recommendation as well?

Meeting with businesses as a result of fellowship.
Again... seems a far stretch to credit that directly to mindpro. And I'm not really sure what the end result is.. you met some business leaders in your area. Great.

Website Help
Mindpro helped you give critique to a web designer you paid $4,000? Ok. I would have totally expected Mindpro to recommend a web developer to you who already knows the business and then give you that information BEFORE you paid $4,000 and were unhappy. But yes... it's good that he helped you there.

Was there anything else? Are you currently performing? are you making more money than you were previously? are you getting more / better gigs? are you getting more repeat and referral customers?

I'm not doubting Mindpros knowledge... it's clear he does have some experience in the field. I'm also not doubting that mindpro has provided you with great resources. But the video didn't really answer my question "how has coaching helped you in your real world business of performing" It sounded like you got 1 day care gig from a meeting with a fellowship that you got into and included a reference letter from mindpro. Please.. I'm not meaning that as negative as it sounds.. I'm sure you are getting real value out of coaching.. but as I've said before, a coach has an incentive to keep you on a SLOW path to success so you will continue with his coaching.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 29, 2018 05:06PM)
Just a disclaimer that I do realize the video was more than just an answer to my question.

In general I'm jealous of how easily resources are available online... if I had all of this 11 years ago I think my business (which still exists) could have taken off differently, and more quickly.
While I had a mentor who helped me tremendously... he knew about ONE side of the entertainment business (music and music events) and that did not all directly apply to variety entertainment.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 29, 2018 05:35PM)
Just a quick response to ThomasR-

Thanks for responding.

I look at my evolvement as a compilation of many factors, that include talent, experience and education. It becomes impossible to attribute each specific advancement to one thing. You asked about both my education at college and coaching, so not everything I mentioned was focused on coaching.

I am up on bookings and prices and advancing in markets, but coaching is designed to create a broad base of structured foundation and a long term vision. The fellowship opportunities are likewise structured that way, so adding up what they are worth today is not my focus. I can only say I provided a few examples and have many others that are consistent with my vision. I could not go into great detail on each example regarding the length of time I spent with local business owners and the intimacy of my meetings was substantial. The show I booked at the daycare was not even a result of my meeting and my desired long term relationship with the daycare center has little to do with booking more shows there.

I will try to address other points down the road.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 29, 2018 07:01PM)
"coaching is designed to create a broad base of structured foundation and a long term vision" - I think this is what I have a problem with. In the video you say the reason for coaching is to speed everything up. Yet after 2 years of coaching when I ask for results you give me the 'long term vision" line. So which is it?

When do you plan on performing full time? when you graduate (is that this year??) or does your long term plan have you skipping over performing full time?

I also apologize if you feel I've derailed the thread from coaching to about you specifically. Not my intent.. you're just the obvious example to use. :)
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 29, 2018 08:30PM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2018, thomasR wrote:
First of all.. great video. Nicely produced, and you have great presentation / public speaking skills. [/quote]
Thank you for the kind words. It was actually just hastily put together (crazy busy week) and I now realize I cut content that would have been relevant.

[quote]But... I'm still quite confused what the coaching has actually gotten you. Unless I missed something...

Branded Props. Was that mindpro's idea? Or he helped you get the props or encouraged you on the path? Certainly being unique in your market is good. Wheather I am getting a custom made prop, or purchasing one, I am always thinking about how it fits my brand and image. So yeah... good thinking. [/quote]
Yes, our discussions regarding the direction of my business moving away from what many perceive to be a standard magic show necessitated the move to customized props that move the audience away from such notions. Mindpro was instrumental in this way of thinking.

[quote]
Scholarship / Fellowship
I'm sorry but crediting Mindpro for these seems to be a huge stretch. Scholarships and business fellowships exist for people like you. Did mindpros letter help? Sure... but I'm pretty sure your past experiences (performances at the white house, etc.) would / did help just as much. Did you submit any other letters of recommendation as well? [/quote]
This Fellowship opportunity was very competitive and an all or nothing proposition. While I never hired Mindpro for such purposes, I can tell you that it was when I received his nomination letter with impressive and professional letterhead -I said to myself “I’ve got this”. My brother is in Medical School. Did he really need to take SAT and MCAT prep classes? Did he really need to serve as a firefighter and undertake EMT certification classes? No one knows for sure, but attending the medical school of your choice is very competitive and an all or nothing proposition. Additionally, once you get into medical school or fellowship programs, these prepatory steps greatly help in getting the most out of such opportunities.

[quote]
Meeting with businesses as a result of fellowship.
Again... seems a far stretch to credit that directly to mindpro. And I'm not really sure what the end result is.. you met some business leaders in your area. Great. [/quote]
Mindpro is in the mix, and we discuss optomizing such opportunities as well.

[quote]Website Help
Mindpro helped you give critique to a web designer you paid $4,000? Ok. I would have totally expected Mindpro to recommend a web developer to you who already knows the business and then give you that information BEFORE you paid $4,000 and were unhappy. But yes... it's good that he helped you there. [/quote]
Mindpro describes his coaching as one gaining an advanced degree. Conceptually, one enrolled in such a program would not expect the instructors to baby sit each and every step - it stunts growth, is too restrictive and outside of the scope of our arrangement. Coming to my rescue before I drown is awesome coaching. I have learned way more than I can get into here regarding this process.

[quote]Was there anything else? Are you currently performing? are you making more money than you were previously? are you getting more / better gigs? are you getting more repeat and referral customers? [/Quote]
These are all good and legitimate questions. While I have nothing to hide, I don’t spend time speaking to these questions because I did not come here to promote Mindpro’s coaching and try to show others how it can help their business. I share what I get out of coaching in general and in particular, with Mindpro and invite others to share perspectives. While I ultimately intend to greatly increase all such numbers, I was seeking different and more far reaching goals. I evaluate my progress against those goals. They are perhaps softer to evaluate, but I am surpassing my expectations.

[quote]I'm not doubting Mindpros knowledge... it's clear he does have some experience in the field. I'm also not doubting that mindpro has provided you with great resources. But the video didn't really answer my question "how has coaching helped you in your real world business of performing" It sounded like you got 1 day care gig from a meeting with a fellowship that you got into and included a reference letter from mindpro. Please.. I'm not meaning that as negative as it sounds.. I'm sure you are getting real value out of coaching.. but as I've said before, a coach has an incentive to keep you on a SLOW path to success so you will continue with his coaching. [/quote]

Literally every aspect of my business and performance has grown. Perhaps Mindpro can better give specific examples, as it is often more clear to others who witness growth than the student.

One thing I want to share that was inadvertently cut from the video is that Mindpro is very unique with regard to his early family life, where he has lived and experiences across so many aspects of entertainment. The benefits of this in deference to other learning tools becomes very apparent through ongoing conversations.

I misspoke on video. My coaching relationship has actually been shy of a year and a half. I plan on performing full time beginning in June 2019. I have developed 1,3 and 5 year plans that hopefully work to keep me on track for my career vision.

I currently perform full time throughout the summer months and part time during other months. Further details of my progress will become more clear during the lead up to my being a full time performer.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 29, 2018 08:42PM)
I knew exactly how this was going to go when thomasR asked the question of which Cafécheckers was responding.

This round of most recent posts and really this thread, in general, is an excellent example of both the tone of Tricky Business here these days, and more so the magic and entertainment communities in general from a performer's perspective (very limiting perspective.)

To begin with, thomasR seems to continually operate from a negative, I don't understand, "prove something to me" perspective. This is something I see in many performers. They simply can't allow themselves to see, accept or understand a greater picture. They can't see or accept a different business model from what is typical.

Even by the nature of "Doubting Thomas'" last few posts, I knew exactly how this would go. He is looking for a list of individual items that Checkers has learned or gained from personal coaching with me. The problem is then if there were provided, he would then start picking them apart one by one claiming that each of those could be attained on their own, without the need of paying for Mindpro as a coach.

The problem with this and really much of this thread is the context. He is reading and receiving this from his own questioning and doubting position, NOT the position of Cafécheckers or the purpose of this entire thread being introduced in the first place. So yes, operating from the questioning, doubtful position, there will likely be no satisfactory answers. This is clear by 17 pages of circumstances, situations, and examples which are not being accepted.

So let me make it a bit clearer for thomasR and any others having similar difficulties. To gain the most out of this discussion and the content being shared and offered by Cafécheckers, you really need to operate and understand from the proper perspective - that is the perspective of Cafécheckers previously and now more than ever's current position of believing 100%, without a doubt, that everything I state, claim and have or shared here is completely true and accurate. You must move beyond these personal doubts or lack of acceptance that everything I have ever stated, said or claimed here relating to my knowledge, experience and industry positions and status in emphatically, without a doubt, is 100% true. You must get over the fact that because you can't find it on Google that it somehow isn't real or doesn't exist. If anything, this is a great testiment to my system that you can't easily find it.

Everything - that I have said I have done, the experience I have stated, the levels of which I operate the businesses I have, the elements in entertainment business I have pioneered or created, things in the industry I have created, and the fact that much of what I offer (60-70%) and share in the coaching is not available anywhere else from anyone else. This becomes quite clear very quickly when I start working with someone (as well as how nice I am, lol). In a very short period of time, we go deeper into entertainment business that most that have had 60-year local performing careers never have even come close to. Again, not fluff or exaggerated claims but complete fact that is quickly realized and proven.

Only then, once 100% focus can be on my content will things even begin to be possible to move forward. Things happen quickly for most, depending on their current level and the initial work that needs to be done. For some this initial work can take a bit of time as much of it is the foundational aspects that absolutely must be in place - CORRECTLY- before even attempting to get to the progressive aspects of the coaching. For some, some if it may be in place, for others it may be going back and addressing each and every one of these components and starting over. This is one reason why newbies have a distinct advantage as there is less or nothing that needs to be undone or revisited, allowing progress to start almost immediately.

For some here that just can't accept these things, no answers will really suffice because they are not hearing them as intended, but rather applying them, as they wish, to their own unaccepting context, which of course can only possibly lead to only greater unacceptance and distorted reality that they have created for themselves - but not the true reality of the situation. One of the first things we do is learn to deal in 100% reality, not Google or other perceived/pseudo-realities.

This is prohibitive, restrictive and will assuredly hold others back from progress and only keep them as doubters and unaccepting of the change they likely need the most.

As I say, I don't expect these to be understood as intended by everyone, but for those that do seem to get it, here are some exact examples...

Performances have been revised and improved
Branding has been created
Bookings have increases
Pricing per bookings and therefore overall earnings have increased
The level of professionalism has greatly improved
Professionalism is understood and comprehended on many levels (50 different)
Proper business foundations have been created and understood
Performances are adapted or created based on the proper business foundations to compliment each other rather than work against each other)
They understand and master the 5 types of bookings
They understand how entertainment businesses are different from conventional businesses
They understand the rules of entertainment business
They understand the art and science of entertainment business
They have a complete and thorough understanding of their customers on a level most do performers not or ever will
They gain deep market knowledge from the inside
They have a business plan
They establish short, mid and longterm goals
They become media-friendly
They understand and incorporate press and media into their business on a consistent basis
They have a marketing plan
They have a promotional schedule
They learn a specific marketing system created and based on their specific markets and foundational elements
They become established authorities in their geographical markets, separating and positioning themselves form others
They become established and authorities in each of their performance markets
They become more than just "performers" or "entertainers"
They use their business to give back to special causes important to them
They see and create the greater picture for their business making it consistent, reliable and recession-proof

I will stop there with just those 25 things for the first 18 months. Again, this is just the basics and tip of the iceberg. There is soooo much more.

As far as pacing, I can not tell you how fast things progress, There is no "it is in the coach's best interest to have a slow path to success" as we move far to fast and cover far too much ground for anyone to ever make such non-realistic claims. They are trying to keep up with me. If anything slows it is at their request, not mine. My coaching is about education, progress, and results.

If anything I am guilty of is over-delivering. They pay for an hour a week, 50 weeks a year = 50 hours a year. For many our sessions go 1.5, 2, 2.5+ hours each time. Heck, just today one session went 3 hours and 20 minutes and both of us had to pry ourselves off of the phone. So not SLOW anything here. This is also the reason why earlier in this thread I said in the first 12-15 months Cafécheckers has attained what many other performers would take 3-5 years to achieve. It is because of both their commitment to progress and my willingness to share openly and overdeliver. I know that is probably the type of thing I am supposed to let others say about me, but the truth is the truth, fact is fact, and reality is what it is, regardless of who says it. I am not dealing in political correctness here, I am dealing is reality and someone's own personal success and expected results.

Goals will be met. If a client comes to me and says I'm currently in school for another 3 years and I'd like my business to be at a point where I can literally walk out of school into my own 6 figure income business, that is what we will make the reality. I will provide the information, knowledge and tools, and they provide the action to make it become reality. It will happen as that is the only acceptable goals. Of course, each student's goals are individual and each of their starting points will be different, but that is how we operate.

There is no time for such games, limiting mentalities. Over 96% of those that secure me for coaching ASK ME to continue working with them. Some are not in their 8th, 9th and 10th years. As Cafécehckers tries to explain, it is a much more broader thing than "just coaching" as most here are seeming to see this. For many of these people, it is like I can become a part of their business. Some view it as a partner without any financial stake, others look at it as their own personal entertainment business psychologist, and still, others look at it as a main part of their business just as much as their performance, original material, branding, marketing, and other crucial elements. Many look at me as a huge proprietary component to both their business and success.

Even for the guys that have been around for ten years, things continue to move quickly and new concepts, ideas, and strategies are introduced each week - literally.

You really do not understand when I say how deep we go and how much there is to entertainment business and how it is truly the commitment of my life efforts. I am committed to their success. They become attached to my name, so there is a mutual investment.

Again, I know most here may not understand, but it is important to understand that THIS is where Cafécheckers is coming from and trying to express in his posts, this thread and the video (which I would have never suggested, as most here know I am not a fan of video these days especially.)

Also for those that want to learn my entertainment business operational system as part of their training, they become blown away at the intricacies and beauty of how it all works together in a results-driven creation. No SEO, Lead Pages, autoresponders, AdWords, Pay-Per-Click, Click Funnels, launch formulas, social media, and the other tech and trendy guru resources. Sure, these can be added to the system or enhance certain areas, which I am happy to show then how to do/utilize, but we build and create a business on the foundation of clients, customers and relationships, not algorithms and tech.

Unfortunately, every one of the elements thomasR chose to offer his opinion on are terribly incorrect. Branded Props - that may be what you see, but, in reality, it is something waaay more in a bigger picture. Yes, I likely played what was a key or primary role in helping him get the scholarship (from what I understand and how we positioned it). What you see as "meeting with businesses" is also much more, you need to think along the lines of $100,000s in sponsorships and additional booking opportunities, high-profile visibility, and again, sooooo much more. Again a much deeper and greater picture - all done by a part-time performer (college student) in his first 16 months in working with me.

As for the website help and your perception - no I do not often recommend resources or make recommendations. If I am asked and I have something I would be willing to recommend or share, fine, but my clients/students know how I feel about recommendations. He came to me with his resources in mind through his own efforts of starting to create his own team. He asked me to checkout out and critique the work they had done. And in a matter of one session of ours, he learned more about websites that he could have ever imagined from me. In 18 minutes I offered him not just some changes but the complete outline with almost every crucial aspect included, including a sample mock-up of what the site should be (and this was all while I was at dinner between the time I ordered and the food arrived at the Golden Nugget steakhouse!) He took the information back to his web designers and they were blown away. Had this occurred first, it may have gone in a different direction, but I don't tell someone what to do or how to do it, I provide them with the knowledge and education to make their own decisions. I am not a coach teaching what I have done" or "how I did it" - no, that is how 99% of other "coaches" and "gurus" do it. That is not at all how my coaching works. I am not interested in making replicas of myself.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 29, 2018 11:22PM)
"To begin with, thomasR seems to continually operate from a negative, I don't understand, "prove something to me" perspective."
"Doubting Thomas'"
"So let me make it a bit clearer for thomasR and any others having similar difficulties."

hmm... I thought the conversation was going nicely. I also thought it would be rude to not ask questions after Checkers went to so much trouble to give a long and detailed answer.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 29, 2018 11:30PM)
It is going nicely, but I was just providing more of the specifics you seemed to be in search of. I may have referred to you as it was your post to which Cafécheckers was responding, as well as to me responding to your follow up questions. Didn't think it was bad or un-nicely, just trying to speak a bit more frank and honest that's all. It has seemed since the beginning there are some (yourself included, Robert, Tom, Keith, CDguy and others) that were having trouble understanding it, so on the heels of Cafécheckers video trying to provide further clarification, my post was intent to expand off of that.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 30, 2018 07:34AM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Some are not in their 8th, 9th and 10th years. [/quote]

Correction: This was supposed to read: "Some are NOW in their 8th, 9th and 10th years."
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Mar 30, 2018 09:35AM)
Wow- lots to take in here. Mindpro, thanks for providing your detailed perspectives and content.

It does seem that a lot of the back and forth here has to do with differing understandings of the topic of coaching. That is not a bad thing, because there is no one definition as it relates to entertainment. Sometimes it becomes frustrating when we don’t understand one another, but it causes us to stretch ourselves in better conveying our thoughts on complex issues. That’s a good thing. Mindpro stated earlier in this thread that his students describe their experience as if they are getting an advanced degree. I believe this is a very good way to conceptualize coaching, as it relates to what Mindpro offers. The only difference is that there is far more specific content and much deeper experiencial learning because he is working with you one on one with your individual business.

If I was enrolled in a MBA program while still being a full time student in undergraduate, no one would likely be asking me a year and a half into my MBA program to provide specific examples of how my MBA pursuit has contributed to my financial well being or narrowly look at each learning activity with respect to how it contributes to my objectives. Working with Mindpro has provided me with immediate revenue opportunities, but I could not be more clear or consistent in stating that it was/is not why I sought his coaching. It is not what excites me to continue working with him.

I created the video to try to better be comprehensive, but even then I found I fell far short of conveying all the aspects of how Mindpro has contributed to my development. Truly, the number one thing he has done is reshape and enrich my way of thinking. He has done so in a way unlike anyone else I have ever encountered. People speak of how much one can gain from the internet these days, but in reality by far the number one thing it has done for me and my business is to connect me with great minds across the world. Reaching out to those individuals beyond on-line discussions has really meant the most. My brother deciding to participate here nearly six years ago connected us to many with unique talents regarding performing, prop creation, show production, and business. I believe ego prevents many here from seeing and pursuing such opportunities, but we have done so extensively.

Describing the value one gets from a MBA, or advanced degree is difficult because the value is seen over time. For some, it offers them opportunities they otherwise would not be able to obtain. For other, it allows them to be seen differently by those in their industry. Regardless, transforming and enlarging ones capabilities in a broad sense is the underlying benefit. That is how I approach working with Mindpro. It is exactly what I was seeking. Honestly, there was no plan B, meaning no one else would have sufficed as a back up plan. That is how unique his offering is, and I owe the internet a debt of gratitude for connecting us. I challange anyone to provide an alternative choice. Share the name of anyone who comes with similiar credentials. Don’t say you don’t know his credentials -that’s a you thing. He has produced numerous industry resource materials, shared volumes of content and insights here over the years. He shared very specific details of his willingness to offer time, passion and personal investment far beyond the stated relationship. Most importantly, he understands and has publicly stated that he is not interested in making replicas of himself. Read his post yesterday that describes his involvement and then reflect on whether or not you know anyone who is even remotely close in terms of ready, willing and able to offer assistance.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 30, 2018 10:45AM)
[quote]On Mar 29, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
It has seemed since the beginning there are some (yourself included, Robert, Tom, Keith, CDguy and others) that were having trouble understanding it, [/quote]

It’s not that we don’t understand the coaching, it is we don’t understand the coach.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 30, 2018 02:05PM)
As he said..that's a you problem! And no, you don't understand it. (I don't know how to put the same smiley face)
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 30, 2018 03:17PM)
:) Just figured it out.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 30, 2018 04:56PM)
I immediately regret typing this but how is it my fault I don't know the actual credentials of the only "business coach" I've ever heard of who chooses to remain 100% annonimous? Can anyone point me to any other entertainment business coach who uses this practice?

That being said.... My argument to you would be the same with or without mindpros coaching. It seems like a slow track to me, however that's me. You see it as a fast track to a long term business. Neither of us will know how that works out until 5 years or so. Will be interesting to see. Hopefully you'll continue to keep us all updated.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 30, 2018 06:39PM)
Again, your seeing things in your own context. I am not 100% anonymous, only here on a publicly searchable forum, where my identity could cause both a conflict and damage to my other businesses, clients and employees. It is a preventative measure that most once presented with completely understand. Also most here do know my identity. This perception is one that a few uninformed members have created in their own but is far from the truth or reality. Actually, the very first thing I say to a new client/student when we first talk is I introduce myself and real name, and an explanation of why a username is necessary. They all understand and respect it immediately.

Btw I know of several other business coaches that do the same thing so they can talk openly without jeopardizing contracts, business clients, employees and strategies. I'm sure I didn't invent this. This is a byproduct of the online generation that we see so prevalent here. The fact that we have members that believe if they can't verify something on Google it can't be legit or factual is so crazy. One must remember, many of us had much success before all of this online world came into existence. That should not be overlooked if anything it should be more greatly understood, appreciated and valued, as those that operate solely from the online perspective are missing a large majority of a greater picture.

When people are making years of progress in a few short months, doubling and tripling earnings and profitability in a few short months, advancing their business in ways they never imagined and are learning more about entertainment business, customer service and the true needs of their customers in a few short months when many of these guys (and gals) haven't done this after years of their own individual learning, is so hard for me to see how you would consider any of this slow.

There are members here which I won't identify but many of us remember that claimed "just wait to see where this guy is in 5 or 10 years, only to find they have achieved little and have perhaps only minimally advanced, where yet we are seeing examples of guys that have made far more progress in mere months than these others have in years or a decade. I fail to understand how you aren't seeing or understanding this unless of course you are not truly trying. I'm not sure what more proof he or anyone could possibly give you. As I said, for those that don't want to believe no explanation will suffice.

To answer your first question in the above post it IS your fault you are not getting it, your fault that I seem to be the only business coach YOU know and the only one who chooses to be 100% anonymous. All of these have "you" all over them. You have read the same information Cafécheckers and others have that get it, YOU (yes, another "you") are choosing not to accept it. Expand your knowledge, your net, your learning. You are the only one limiting yourself here. Check out Barry Friedman, Lou Serrano, Randy Charach and others. In doing so you will also find that some of their students end up coming to me for their real progress and breakthroughs. I had hoped some of these other newfangled "online coaches" would have chimed in here more, but I guess not. Again, they are only teaching what they know or a specific niche (limiting) as it applied to them. Trust me, you will be hard-pressed to find someone who coaches and operates from an industry level with experience in all six main areas of the industry. As Cafécheckers said, he challenges you (or anyone) to do so. I said it pages ago - no one teaches what I do and how I do. Not boasting, simply a fact. Others have known it for years, some have just more recently discovered this, others simply fail to want to accept this (again, their own limitation), but it is the reality.

As I train my students when you offer and do what no others can, you have no competition, only imitators (that almost always fall short)...and of course, naysayers that would rather believe their own uninformed thoughts and opinions than the reality (not meaning you thomasR, just in general).
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 30, 2018 06:56PM)
This is an interesting discussion, and as I stated early on in this thread, I'm a huge proponent of private coaching. This recent discussion enticed me to crunch some numbers on the value of the coaching I've received over the last couple of years. This is what I found.

Back in 2016 I invested in coaching with both Barry Friedman through his ShowBiz Blueprint program, and Randy Charach in his two-day private coaching bootcamp. Combined I invested a total of just over $7,000. In the two years that have passed, I've been able to decrease my number of bookings by 43%. Yes, you read that correctly. My total number of bookings DECREASED by 43%. At the same time my income INCREASED by 30%. So fewer gigs at much higher pay. It is difficult to qualify which ideas, principles, and strategies from each coach that is responsible for this increase in income, because I've incorporated it all into my current system of growing my business.

At the end of last year I invested almost $10,000 in receiving private coaching from David Hira in Dallas, TX. If I look at the first three months of last year and compare them to the first three months of this year, my bookings have decreased by 51%. That's right, a DECREASE of 51 percent! Yet, my income in that same period of time has INCREASED by 15%. Can I attribute that increase to David Hira. No, but I can attribute it to all that I've learned from David Hira, Barry Friedman, and Randy Charach combined.

Some people might view coaching as a waste of time and money, but in my experience, finding the right coach or coaches has been a great benefit to my business.

Pick the right coach. Find someone with a proven track record for success, someone who is also a great coach, and do what they say. If they're the real deal, and you're a good student, you should see tangible results.

Respectfully,

Lou Sserrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 10:27AM)
Interesting. I do not consider the things you mentioned coaching. Those are (group) seminars, workshops or training events. Yes, I host those myself, but only as an additional service for my students/clients, with rare exception. These are usually a specific topic or niche training and are not at all coaching in any sense that I would consider or to what is being discussed here.

These usually have a specified curriculum and while they may offer email, phone support, a private group or discussion area or access to info or a resource site, then of course and I'm guessing likely followed by an advanced premium group or Alumni group, etc., all based on an online marketing formula (complete with a JW launch and, as we've seen here, affiliate programs offered at the end). These are not at all near the same as to personal coaching or what Cafécheckers or myself have been talking about. These are simply programs or training courses. Two different animals.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 31, 2018 11:34AM)
Well Lou's examples showed real results with real numbers. So yes I would agree that those courses seem to offer something different than your coaching.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 12:32PM)
I agree, as that was my point is what he was referring to as coaching was not, just education. There is a difference. Coaching includes this education among a great deal more, but programs, courses and seminar events do not include coaching (even with continued access). Just making the distinction for the purpose of better understanding this thread and the perspectives Cafécheckers is offering.

It (his numbers and post) also unveils something that I have a problem with but am not sure I want to get into it here. It is something that has been a main point of my coaching and its foundation all along, and a problem I have with the path Lou (and similar others) has chosen.

Lou's example, though not coaching, does show results are possible through other means of education as well (just not the same results trying to be expressed here).
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 31, 2018 01:06PM)
Mindpro,

How do you know if the coaching I received was coaching or merely education? Were you there?

The COACHING I received from Randy Charach was Private Individual Coaching. I was NOT part of a group. There wasn't a specified curriculum. This was coaching in the truest sense. ShowBiz Blueprint is Group Training coupled with Group Coaching. As for David Hira, I've invested in BOTH Group Coaching AND Private Coaching. And just because the coaching programs aren't in the forms that YOU offer doesn't exclude them from being labeled Coaching.

The results I've posted speak for themselves. There are plenty of other benefits I've received as well, but the results I posted are the most tangible.

It seems like you're using semantics to twist this thread into something that it wasn't. Go back and read Cafécheckers original post. He wanted to hear about the experiences of others who have also hired personal coaches. I gave my experience, and now you're trying to invalidate what I've said, because it doesn't fit YOUR definition of coaching. If the title of this thread was labeled Mindpro's Coaching then you'd have a point, but it isn't.

I will end with a quote from your student.

[quote]On Mar 30, 2018, Cafécheckers wrote:
It does seem that a lot of the back and forth here has to do with differing understandings of the topic of coaching. That is not a bad thing, because there is no one definition as it relates to entertainment. [/quote]

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 02:24PM)
Lou, you are taking offense to what I've said which is exactly why I won't go into what I really wanted to get into (and what needs to be stated). The point is, whether you agree or not, the events you attended were limited time, specific curriculum/theme trainings. The supplemental support is just that, not coaching. Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events.

As I've stated here before I am well aware of these and all that is out there. It is my business. I am glad you feel you received growth, benefits, and value out of these. It is far more than just different definitions of "coaching" though. We are comparing apples and oranges here. With each of these, you are learning someone else's path. Did you take what they offered and add it to what you already had in existence and in motion (you probably think you have), or did you change to what they taught, did and experienced? This is a huge difference. Just by the post above you've done things I would never suggest or tolerate (I'm sure you will take that in the wrong way, in your own context rather than understanding what I am actually saying). Glad you were happy with the results of those trainings and you feel they were worthy investments.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 31, 2018 03:03PM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
The point is, whether you agree or not, the events you attended were limited time, specific curriculum/theme trainings. The supplemental support is just that, not coaching. Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events.
. [/quote]

Again I ask, were you there?

I know you believe you know a lot about people. At one point in one of our private online conversationss you stated that you knew a lot about me including that I was new to the business with less than 10 years experience as a professional magician. I had to correct you, because you obviously knew little about me.

I think you're making way too many assumptions about things you don't have first hand knowledge about. You have no idea what arrangements I had or have with my coaches. You are making a lot of assumptions, and many of them are incorrect. Unless you sought out coaching from these people, you really have no idea what is truly involved, and even if you did seek out coaching, your arrangements might be different than mine. So to paint all coaches and coaching programs one color is an error on your part.

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 05:27PM)
Again, you are taking things out of context. When I said you were relatively new, I met to the current path you were pursuing. I know all about your music/band days, closeup/restaurant days, and even more personal things. Again, you read what you want. As far as you going down the path of professional markets, higher-paying corporate bookings and trade shows, etc., yes, I would consider you relatively newer to that path. Not a bad thing. Sure it is a progression from what you may have been doing but quite different.

I'm not here to assess you, and yes, I know each of these trainings quite well. I have always spoken very highly of Barry's as it is one of the two I would ever consider as decent, but again, with that said, it is limited, based on his experience and not all-encompassing, which he would likely agree. While I disagree with some of his moves and choices over the past couple of years, I would still recommend it - as training and a more so a mindset approach. As I said, I get some students of his (and yours) and am quite aware of approaches and content. It is not assumptions but information based from experiences. You may disagree with them, but they aren't just assumptions. I study and evaluate talent and performers every day of my life. I am usually quite accurate. Sometimes performers see themselves differently other that others or perhaps the reality.

Nothing I stated about these programs, approaches or business models is incorrect.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 31, 2018 05:37PM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
I know all about your music/band days, closeup/restaurant days, and even more personal things.
[/quote]

Umm... that's just creepy. Like seriously creepy.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 05:51PM)
I'm not sure why, it isn't private information as it is known openly, by many. Again with your own context and it is always negative-based.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 05:55PM)
Lou, let me ask you a direct question. Do you consider yourself a coach?
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 31, 2018 06:10PM)
Mindpro,

I do consider myself a coach and so do my clients.

Now I have a direct question for you. What do you know about my training with Randy Charach and David Hira?

Lou serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 06:37PM)
No, I never said I was there. I said I am well aware of these and what is out there. I never insinuated I was there with you. I know David's content and format, and Randy's may be more encompassing but it again is based on his own experience, actually, both of them are. It was actualy probably a great thing that you were the only one who showed up for Randy's training as it allowed it to be more individualized than what you would have received if it were a group setting. He still does much of that Millionaire Magician (or whatever it was called) material. As far as continued coaching it is more focused on your own specifics. While I don't know, you likely got more out of David's as far as hands-on, but since it is subjective, I could be wrong. I was speaking strictly in terms of knowing their content. Of course, also from the small bits of what you shared here as well. I am also aware that unlike some magicians that only follow and heed advice from other magicians that (and I believe you've even stated this here before perhaps) that you also follow some other gurus outside of entertainment which you probably have gained from as well. I believe you actually attended an online event I was a guest on if I remember correctly a couple of years ago. And also you had some of Benji's stuff too.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 31, 2018 06:49PM)
Mindpro,

Before I respond to the other points in your post, what do you know of David's content other than what's on his website?

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 31, 2018 07:41PM)
All I know it that it is more experiential learning with an interactive act-and-do format with several different team members and topics/areas and it is a lot more performance-based than many others. He does work from a theatrical (sometimes over-enthusiastic, over the top) approach to his presentations, which is one of the things I like is he can deliver on both the depth of performance and presentations aspects and the business (also into production). In my other business interests I have, I know him as a speaker and a business expert. We have a similar approach to sales and other aspects as related to the client/customer. His forte is as a trianer. He uses many conventional business techniques and approaches (much like Walter here). He tends to operate in smaller groups which many like if they don't mind doing the work. It isn't the type of learning where you go to watch, observe and just take notes.

I also know that while he has performed for a long time he was primarily a part-time performer being a bit selective, as he still had a corporate job (Sharp Electronics) in addition to his entertainment and speaking. He operates from more of an old-school keynote approach to speaking. I also know him through fellow hypnotist CJ Johnson. He had had about a dozen businesses (that I know of) including a restaurant, theater director, nursing education training, a jewelry business, a health and wellness business (spa) and several out of the country endeavors.

That's about all I really know. Not sure what else you are looking for here.
Message: Posted by: lou serrano (Mar 31, 2018 09:43PM)
Mindpro,

You are correct in some things and unfortunately incorrect in others. I'm not going to go back and forth with you quibbling about the inaccuracies in your statements.

The biggest issue I have with your posts is that you believe your definition of a "coach" or "coaching" is the only one that is correct in this discussion. In the end, you can call it whatever you like, but none of it matters unless you are providing value to your clients. If your clients are getting the results they seek by hiring you, then fantastic! I'm happy for them and you. If others are getting value from some of the other people mentioned in this thread, what does it matter if it fits your definition? You aren't going to change my mind as to the "coaching" I received, and I'm not going to change yours, so how does this help anyone?

Lou Serrano
Message: Posted by: Keith Raygor (Mar 31, 2018 10:33PM)
[quote]On Mar 30, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
It has seemed since the beginning there are some (yourself included, Robert, Tom, Keith, CDguy and others) that were having trouble understanding it, so on the heels of Cafécheckers video trying to provide further clarification, my post was intent to expand off of that. [/quote]

Mindpro,
Thank you for bringing me back into the conversation. It may have "seemed" that way to you, but you are incorrect. I have never had trouble understanding coaching or the topics you're trying to explain. I've only had trouble understanding YOUR posts on the subject since you began setting yourself up as a coach, and selling your ebooks. This is, in part, because you are not a magician, and it's been clear to anyone working professionally as a magician, that you have no experience working or marketing as one. Yet, here you are.

Regarding your statement that "You must move beyond these personal doubts or lack of acceptance that everything I have ever stated, said or claimed here relating to my knowledge, experience and industry positions and status in emphatically, without a doubt, is 100% true. You must get over the fact that because you can't find it on Google that it somehow isn't real or doesn't exist. If anything, this is a great testiment to my system that you can't easily find it.". I would like to explore this further. It's quite a claim.

In this day and age of every small and large business having a presence on the internet, proudly proclaiming that your system doesn't allow people to easily find you, stretches the limits of credibility. Let alone the 100% factor. So . . .
I have an idea that maybe you'll appreciate. It'll put the questions about your knowledge and experience to rest. How about the members of the Café that HAVE found you on Google, post their findings? And let the others in the discussion judge for themselves whether or not everything you have ever stated, said or claimed is 100% true?
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 2, 2018 09:51PM)
This post is offered for those who are following this thread and choose to think strategically and develop their business in new and exciting ways in the pursuit of big dreams. I hope some are at the age I was when I first joined TMC

About five years ago I began to notice that Mindpro’s posts often shared insights on how one could take their business to new heights by thinking in a different and more encompassing way. He demonstrated that he was thinking two, three, four or more steps ahead in the topic at hand. One specific example I can share is when my brother and I had the opportunity to perform during the Easter Egg Roll. While all others congratulated us, Mindpro shared his perspective that participating in the event was the easy part and that to get real and lasting benefit from it required far more understanding and planning. He spoke of business models, press and media optimization strategies and aligned promotional materials. While everyone else was commenting on what occurred, Mindpro was looking far down the road. He has offered similiar perspectives consistently over the years. Most often, his observations are not well received because egos get involved and people become defensive while believing Mindpro is belittling them. Instead, much would be gained by asking Mindpro to elaborate. It is apparent to me, even many times in this thread.

If you read his posts with an open mind it can transform how you approach your business and your life. I am now in medical school and the concepts I learned from Mindpro are applicable here. While most med students look at this as a time to learn to treat patients, I am seeing many more opportunities to develop my medical career. Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context. I consider how I can maximize my opportunities so that 10, 20, 30 years from now I will be gaining from my relationships and experiences. During weekends and breaks, I am meeting with physicians across the country that share unique and entrepreneurial approaches to practicing medicine. I am bringing some of these individuals to my institution as invited speakers. One such individual has developed a lecture on incorporating magic into pediatric medicine. I spent a day with him and incorporated his teachings into my pediatric rotation. It set me apart from all other students.

My brother, likewise is looking far into the future towards his ambitious goals that extend far beyond being a local kids show performer. He has hired Mindpro to help him develop skill sets and understanding. He knows that the more he shares his progress, more will join in supporting him. He has shared this with prominent politicians in our area as well as local business leaders and educators. He shared it here as well. He does this all knowing it makes him vulnerable and susceptible to nay sayers.

The reaction to his video and progress is very telling. Only ThomasR took the time to offer any feedback. In my opinion - on a forum where we are sharing with each other, that is unfortunate. ThomasR questioned the degree to which my brother was receiving benefit from his coach, which is fair in a thread on coaching - but he continually uses the wrong instrument when calibrating progress. He says we will have to wait 5 years to see if it was worth it, like that was unexpected. In fairness to ThomasR, my brother has not presented his business plans here. That is intentional. Never the less, he has been clear that he is embarking on an ambicous endeavor. I have been at arms length through this process and can see the transition my brother has made already.

When I left the day to day operations we went through a difficult time because I was not able to teach my brother all that I was doing to promote the business and more importantly, why. It was discipline and methodology that came easy to me, but was not innate to him. Mindpro worked with him, offering additional materials and tools to build a foundation, while simultaneously moving the business in the desired direction. Today, my brother is bigger and stronger and owes a great deal to the relationship he has with Mindpro.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Apr 3, 2018 03:07AM)
I have always said that at the end of the day if you personally feel that you benefited from a coach (or a marketing course), and that benefit / new knowledge works for you, then in my opinion that's all that matters.

Gerry
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 3, 2018 10:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 2, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
If you read his posts with an open mind it can transform how you approach your business and your life. I am now in medical school and the concepts I learned from Mindpro are applicable here. While most med students look at this as a time to learn to treat patients, I am seeing many more opportunities to develop my medical career. Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context. I consider how I can maximize my opportunities so that 10, 20, 30 years from now I will be gaining from my relationships and experiences.

My brother, likewise is looking far into the future towards his ambitious goals that extend far beyond being a local kids show performer. He does this all knowing it makes him vulnerable and susceptible to nay sayers.

The reaction to his video and progress is very telling. Only ThomasR took the time to offer any feedback. In my opinion - on a forum where we are sharing with each other, that is unfortunate. ThomasR questioned the degree to which my brother was receiving benefit from his coach, which is fair in a thread on coaching - but he continually uses the wrong instrument when calibrating progress. He says we will have to wait 5 years to see if it was worth it, like that was unexpected.


When I left the day to day operations we went through a difficult time because I was not able to teach my brother all that I was doing to promote the business and more importantly, why. It was discipline and methodology that came easy to me, but was not innate to him. Mindpro worked with him, offering additional materials and tools to build a foundation, while simultaneously moving the business in the desired direction. Today, my brother is bigger and stronger and owes a great deal to the relationship he has with Mindpro. [/quote]



There is some great insight in this post both seen and between the lines.

First, let me address something that could help each person here to recognize. In just the opening seconds of Cafécheckers video, you'll notice he addresses his performing as "my business" "the company". This is first and foremost one of the things that I would say 98% of performers do not do. They do not look at or perceive their performing as a business or a company. He and his bother Charliecheckers both had this perspective and understanding firmly in place before I started working with them. This is a huge factor is running a successful performing or entertainment-based business, is doing so from the right understanding and perspective. While some of you may have been focusing on his results and what he was saying about me, I immediately noticed this right away. It stood out to me (I hear all the accolades every day anyways, so it is important to point this out). I work with all kinds of performers and entertainment business owners. Magicians are a unique breed from both the perspective and operational aspects. As pointed out several times by several people, egos are involved probably more (in negative and limiting ways) than any other type of performer or entertainment-based businesses I work with. Consistently.

I think these two observations alone could help greatly improve the business of those 98%.

Secondly, while yes, thomasR could be commended for at least asking questions and seemingly trying to get a perspective and understanding from Cafécheckers, the answers given have been more toward long-term visions and results. Yes, this is an important part of my coaching. One of the things Cafécheckers (and many others have said to me) is "I don't want to be in my 30s, 40, 50, or 60s just scraping by still hustling for my next bookings, and wondering if I can pay my bills this month." I see and hear this sooo often, especially with magicians. Both magicans I coach and the many I have booked over the years. So I show them how to operate in such a manner that in mid to later years, the heavy work has been done and you can live a comfortable, executive lifestyle without the worry or insecurities that most others endure.

With that said, the immediate benefits of coaching are also seeming to be overlooked. I listed 25 benefits that have already been achieved. That 25, yet I could have probably listed 100-150 more as well. So, no, it doesn't take 5, 10 or more years to see the results. I would say he started seeing initial changes and results in a matter of a few weeks, which when broken down comes out to really a matter of hours. Again, he is not specifically mentioning these as they are a given. Knowing these are a given and realized almost immediately, it allows us to focus on the greater picture - this is where sustainable success is created.

Much of this is education to a greater and deeper understanding. Once this occurs as Charliecheckers said, "Almost instinctively, I now look at situations with broad context." I can not tell you how amazing and life-changing it is when this "shift" occurs and becomes your new default position. It alone changes everything. Once this is in place we can have conversations, design strategies and operations that happen on a level others can not understand. That is one of the problems in this thread. He is excitded about all of this, and wants to share it, but it seems no one is able to appreciate or discuss it on the level of reference.

One of the other things I must mention is the awareness that occurs when you do operate from a company and business perspective of being keenly aware of possibilities and opportunities. This whole coaching adventure was because of acting on a created opportunity by Cafécheckers. Back in October of 2016, there was a member here named Marqus. He posted in severe frustration that nothing was working for him in regard to getting bookings, income, and business. He stated hhe was trying everything. He seemed so frustrated and down and out. He seemed to be banging his head against the wall because as literally nothing was happening. It wasn't because he wasn't trying or doing anything, he was. But with no results. Sensing his frustration we conversed by PM. In one post I stated that I was confident that given 30 days I could assist him. I extended a coaching offer to him (and also to one other member who also often seemed quite frustrated - Kameron Messmer). Although neither of the two decided to take me up on the offer, Cafécheckers PM'd me, as did many others asking if they could be considered for the offer and opportunity. I had never done short-term coaching because you can't really get to the nuts and bolts of things. Several explained that just getting into things a bit deeper than we can here, but without agendas, derailments, and close-mindedness, they felt it could still be beneficial. I even received a reply from mentalist great Bob Cassidy a senior member here in the mentalism forums. He told me he started doing short-term coaching for mentalists and that many were finding it very beneficial and that since he agreed, that the magic community (including himself he admitted) were absolutely terrible and missing the boat on the business side of things. So after careful consideration, I decided to accept a handful of short-term, one time only (really, no advertising guru fake-hype call to action) coaching students. It originally was to help a brother in need, and it ended up helping others as well.

That is when I started discussing coaching here more openly. Unlike other perceptions, I do not promote my coaching here (I really don't need to) only to reference it as needed. Prior to this, it was typically only to establish premise or foundation. Cafécheckers should be commended on seeing, creating and capitalizing on such an opportunity. He has never looked back.

Now I get that many do not want to admit weaknesses, inability, or put in the work, and many students do not want to openly discuss or admit that they are getting coaching. To some it's private or others they feel a sense of shame that they need a coach or mentoring. When I worked with the ABC soap opera All My Children, one of our top actresses was getting weekly coaching and continued training. As her agent, I knew it was not to be discussed, which I understood. While she was learning acting and advance work there, I was working with her on the business aspects. In a quick time, I soon found out like 20 or more members of ABC daytime biggest shows casts were all doing the same. Many will not talk about it and share openly, so I think this whole thread and the efforts of Café and Charliecheckers are quite admirable. This thread alone has inspired and motivated several to contact me about their interests based on this current sharing. Just like his posts here are helping others, I get the same feedback daily about my contributions here in Tricky Business. If some are put off by it, oh well, I won't let that stand in the way of others that are here to benefit.

Some great insights here and yes, like Charliecheckers, I hope it can do deeper if for the right reasons.

I think this thread is so revealing and also demonstrates that very few have actually used coaching, let alone broken down and compared coaches for and truly understand the possible benefits. I guess admitting they need help is the first step.


Oh, by the way....Charliecheckers and Cafécheckers....congratulations on getting the White House Easter Egg Roll!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 5, 2018 12:01AM)
[quote]On Apr 3, 2018, Gerry Walkowski wrote:
I have always said that at the end of the day if you personally feel that you benefited from a coach (or a marketing course), and that benefit / new knowledge works for you, then in my opinion that's all that matters.

Gerry [/quote]

I was about to write a long blathering post about this thread, but you have definitely summed it up quite well. Clearly Mr. Checkers has a multitude of benefits he is reaping from the process and others twisting them to pretend he is not is pointless.

In the end it is about the value provided to the CLIENT. Nobody else has a valid opinion really. Ironically enough including you and I LOL.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 5, 2018 07:54AM)
[quote]On Mar 30, 2018, lou serrano wrote:
Pick the right coach. Find someone with a proven track record for success, someone who is also a great coach, and do what they say. If they're the real deal, and you're a good student, you should see tangible results.
[/quote]

Welcome back Danny! I was thinking of you when I read this quote because while I agree with it 100%, you always remind us that not everyone has to be a “good student” to be successful. I know successful entertainers who would not make good students. That being said, each coach is different in their approach, and some have the ability to connect on various levels to provide the appropriate value.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Apr 18, 2018 08:58AM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events. [/quote]

Mindpro- from you perspective, what is the the impact of one pursuing “coaching” as you describe above for the purposes mentioned, such as life coach, dating coach, happiness coach - and receiving the services as you describe as an online guru. I would think the stakes are even higher for those in need of help for such essential aspirations.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 18, 2018 10:10AM)
The problem is fold. One is the misuse of the word coach. Redefining to suit ones needs. Then redefining success instead of getting better.

NO sports coach worth their salt will tell you that "if you're happy that is really all success is". No it is shot setting and ACHIEVING goals, not redefining them so you feel better about failure.

Second is those who fail at life somehow become coaches, or what is becoming called a coach and it is crap. It is so easy to make up fake bs online today and pretend to be successful while living just below your bills. Then spout some guru crap you read on the Internet and instant success coach. Add in just the right amount of desperation from the buyer and enough wanting a short cut and then you have the problem.

Personally, and this is MY viewpoint only and only an opinion, I would find a mentor not a coach. I am in no way saying coaches do not work. I am not saying all are bad. I am not saying Joey doesn't benefit. CLEARLY he has and if you took the time to hear him instead of correct him you would see just how much he has benefited.

It is just not a path I would pursue personally.

But many would not use personal trainers when they can juat go to the gym. I happen to benefit from one. Same thing really.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Apr 19, 2018 07:28AM)
[quote]On Apr 18, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
[quote]On Mar 31, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Now with that said, all of these are based on an online guru marketing business model I referred to earlier. This is what the online world considers "coaching" these days (life coaches, dating coaches, financial coaches, happiness coaches, etc.), when it really isn't. It's simply limited information and education. If you want to accept that definition, fine. After (or while) you attended these trainings, you may have been offered an upsell or "backend opportunity" of continued training or perhaps "coaching", but that was not what occurred at these limited time events. [/quote]

Mindpro- from your perspective, what is the the impact of one pursuing “coaching” as you describe above for the purposes mentioned, such as life coach, dating coach, happiness coach - and receiving the services as you describe as an online guru. I would think the stakes are even higher for those in need of help for such essential aspirations. [/quote]


As Danny said today's online world and it's spawned gurus adapted it create their own desired meaning. It's much like the rap and hip-hop communities which use words or terms with established longtime meaning and change them to their own specialized meanings. They use them in their songs and culture which appeal to their audience who begins thinking, using and understanding these words to these new meanings, yet having no idea or clue of the real or longtime established meaning.

The impact from one pursuing "coaching" by today's online gurus and specialized "coaching" (dating, pick-up artists, life coaches, happiness coaches, chakra coaches, etc.) is that the online world has accepted this new definition and positioning. In these types of "coaching," they are really only teaching specified information in one specific area - dating, pick-ups, happiness, etc., which is why I said they are more education on a specific topic or area offered and accepted under the term "coaching." Many of these offer limited information and education, based on usually a sole or specific approach, belief or method.

This has created an online business model that they all use with promises of online, easy wealth or success - the actual purpose and intent of these "coachings", not to actually help people with the desired outcome.

The impact is first confusion followed closely by false belief of the supposed or promised results with many of these. You are usually learning one person's approach or belief. An entire online campaign is presented trying to position their belief as what is missing from your life or success, and their belief is what you need to achieve what you think you want or need. They have the missing piece, they have the solution you are seeking!

I am in the middle of working on another project. In doing so I have gone back over the last two years of what the gurus offer and tell you that you need for success. I stopped at 100 different things that entertainments and business owners are being told that they need for success. 100 is where I stopped there could have easily been double that amount if I kept on going. They will tell you need specified courses or training on SEO, Copywriting, Email Mastery, Adwords, Auto-Responders, Lead Pages, Landing Pages, List-Building, Lead Magnets, Social Media Mastery, Facebook, Facebook Ads, Facebook Live,
LinkedIn, YouTube, Viral Videos, Camtasia, Videos & Vlogs, Blogs, Sales Letters, Content Creation, USPs, Elevator Pitches, Newsletters, Self-Publishing, Podcasts, Webinars, Affiliates/Joint Ventures, ...and oh yeah, online marketing itself!!!

If you listen to these gurus, you need all of these things to succeed. This is absolutely crazy. But because (as we see here from so many) if it says so on the internet, it is real! (and heaven forbid if it's not on the internet, it can't be real!)

So the impact is a bunch of people falsely believing that they need things they don't and that "this" is the magical missing piece that will deliver or better position themsleves for success. Well, I'm the big bad, mean guy (the messenger that everyone loves to hate) that tells everyone you don't.

Let's look at some real facts here. For years, decades, generations, many people have been extremely successful without ANY of these. Without the online world at all. The online guys are the ones that said you need a website to succeed and be relevant in today's world. (Many successful entertainers and businesses I know still do not have a website!). So everyone went out paid for a website or webpage and now their stuff was out there for THE ENTIRE WORLD TO SEE and access. Guess what...it made little or no difference. None at all for most. So then they were told, having one is not enough, you need to optimize it and another guru(s) will show you just how to do that. Then, of course, that alone isn't enough you now need to have it created a specific way for best results, then you are told after all of that that most people don't visit your website on a computer but rather a mobile device so you need a mobile website now as well. All of this with the result ending in have a very plain, antiseptic-looking scroll website with absolutely no personality at all, but hey, it aligns perfectly with all of the algorithms needed, so it must be great.

The impact is they have created a world of their own beliefs and are now, through the online world, marketing this as the way business works and is done today.

Yet, in reality, most of it isn't true at all and not truly necessary. So the false perception and belief being perpetuated is really the greatest impact.

They prey on the weak, gullible and misinformed (or uninformed). Those that believe "the others are doing it, so I should be too." Of course, all of it is subjective and comes with no real guarantee.

You do not need a happiness coach to be happy. It can be done without an online guru as it has for 1000s of years. If you are having trouble dating, using someone else's tips or methods probably isn't really going to help you much. This problem exists for a deeper or other reason, not typically lack of knowledge or skill. Also, another person's way likely will not work for you.

So I think the misbelief and false hope that comes out of it is the worst element. I can't tell you how may coaching students and consulting clients I get that have taken all the other entertainment trianings and are no better or only minorly better off. They are coming to me because they still know it isn't helping them and that they still haven't succeeded. They know they need to learn more than what they know or are doing.

These "coaches" are not coaching anyone, just simply teaching and offering their own limited beliefs and information on their own personal limited success, which they position as a niche. The entire premise really is stacked against the student/client. This is why I said above these aren't really coaches or mentors in the true complete sense. There is a much greater, all-encompassing world that likely needs to be conveyed, learned and implemented. I rarely see a person who is missing only "that one single element" that will get them the success they desire.

The problem is very few if any of these gurus and coaches themselves know this greater picture. Take a topic for entertainers - like 2/4 walling. Who is offering this information? Performers that have or are 2/4walling. All they are teaching is what they did or are doing. They usually (and often admittedly) entered into doing it blindly themselves. I have yet seen a single "coach" that truly knows all aspects and the 5 main income resources for 2/4 walling and ALL the elements that should be learned and understood and be in place BEFORE ever trying to execute one. I've never seen one person yet offer information on all aspects from all perspectives and parties involved. Just theirs. Why? Because of their own limited knowledge. Have they held positions in the industry that have allowed them the knowledge and experience on all facets of this? No, yet they are still teaching as an authority or coach.

They are claiming to be an authority or expert in something they are not. So because of the many pseudo or self-proclaimed experts, the term "expert" like the term "coaching" today has taken a different meaning. Anyone today can become an "expert" it seems just by self-proclamation. It also makes it extremely difficult for the uninformed and aware consumer/customer to separate true experts and authorities (and their actual true content and information) from today's boasting fake-experts.

As an off-shoot, as we see here regularly in almost every thread, it has also created a sub-area of doubters as well, many who would rather believe the slick online BS material that is packaged and positioned for online sales, than actual true, legitimate and time-tested experts and content.

So using (according to) the current "coaching" landscape, we all need coaching in every areas of our personal and professional lives which would take decades and hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions. And of course, we'd all die before ever getting there.

I just spoke at an entrepreneur convention two weeks ago in California. The criteria was no tech involved. The topic was how to make $10,000 a month consistently without any of the tech or guru/coaches wares. They based the model on my beliefs and longtime all-encompassing system. It was the most eye-opening reaction from an audience I have ever seen. Once all of this is in place and established, you can, of course, add a website, social media, online marketing and any tech you want, but again, it is not necessary at all.

Also, it was so nice having all of that removed from our minds for the weekend. No thoughts about what they didn't know, didn't have or things that they thought (because they were told by the online gurus) were preventing their success and holding them back.

Now I have no problem with these "coaches" doing their thing, as long as it is understood in the proper perspective and context (which it almost always is not). I wish they be intelligent enough to come up with their own terms rather than taint the words coach and expert. It's the misleading and unethical positioning that is so common (because they all follow the same create, launch and execution formula....of course until the next big guru comes along with something new!)

Yes, the old adage of those that can't - teach, seems to be the same with today's "coaches." I see it every day, coaches that aren't even doing what they "coach" or teach. Coaches, that wouldn't be considered "successful" by most of our definitions.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Apr 19, 2018 11:55AM)
Very very good points in the post above.

The 2 walling / 4 walling is such an interesting topic, I wish there was more complete info out there about it.
While they might not have all the answers, I would love to read a course or hear a full business lecture from Steve Cohen or Dennis Watkins. They seemed to have figured out some ways to make it work in 2 rather difficult and competive entertainment markets.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 19, 2018 12:53PM)
They have. And as such don't really need to be gurus.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 9, 2018 08:07AM)
[quote]On Apr 19, 2018, thomasR wrote:
Very very good points in the post above.

The 2 walling / 4 walling is such an interesting topic, I wish there was more complete info out there about it.
While they might not have all the answers, I would love to read a course or hear a full business lecture from Steve Cohen or Dennis Watkins. They seemed to have figured out some ways to make it work in 2 rather difficult and competive entertainment markets. [/quote]

I agree, but both of these guys would likely tell you they too haven't got the topic of 2/4 Wall figured out, only what they have learned and has worked for them. I know for a fact they are not doing or seem to not know the elements I referred to above, but have found what works for them in their market, venue, and capacity. So while what they could offer could be valuable to someone, it probably wouldn't be training or the methods others could use for their own success. This is likely why they haven't released much on the topic. Even when they speak about it much is limited and often will claim it was just a trial and error process for them as well. I have heard Steve say this several times.

As an example, there was one guy who many around here were praising for the info he had released on 2/4 walling a few years ago, proclaiming he was the "expert" and everyone here boasted he offered some "great information" and had the answers, yet the very guy has been struggling terribly to follow his own advice and information to get his own show/venue for the past couple of years himself. Again, it wasn't because he was teaching a real system of information, just something limited that he stumbled into that had worked for him on a very minimal basis.

Most that could offer "a course or hear a full business lecture" on the topic are those that have failed miserably and almost assuredly lost some decent money in the learning process, and it would likely be something they wouldn't want to relive again or share as it would mean rehashing mistakes, their own lack of information, choices, and the unknown elements they had to learn the hard way. The ones that you really want to hear from that experienced this, learned from the mistakes then endured and prevailed, are very rarely willing to talk, and if they do, usually aren't willing to share all their information of such value for limited benefit.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2018 12:26PM)
"I agree, but both of these guys would likely tell you they too haven't got the topic of 2/4 Wall figured out, only what they have learned and has worked for them. I know for a fact they are not doing or seem to not know the elements I referred to above, but have found what works for them in their market, venue, and capacity. So while what they could offer could be valuable to someone, it probably wouldn't be training or the methods others could use for their own success. "

So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"?

Is there anyone in the entertainment industry that hasn't "failed miserably" at some point in their career?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2018 01:11PM)
Almost nobody in this industry admits failure of any kind. It is all amazing results or excuses. Few admit failure, especially here on this board.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jun 11, 2018 01:28PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2018, thomasR wrote:
So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"?
[/quote]
I think the point Mindpro was making isn’t so much that Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the elements, but rather those who would try to replicate their success would be the ones who would likely suffer. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and very successful people are sometimes able to overcome foundational shortcomings due to extreme talent or fortunate personal circumstances that are not predictably reproducible.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2018 02:14PM)
I don't think any results in the entertainment industry are predictably reproducible.

I think anyone who's thought of 4-walling a show would find value in a course, business bio, lecture, etc. from Cohen or Watkins. Does not mean I think they have all the answers. Also doesn't mean I think either of them have a magic blue print that will work for everyone. But I think the average person would be able to scale what worked for Cohen and Watkins into their market.

I'm pretty sure Mindpro was referring to Bill Gladwell. I got value from his online talks. Just because he doesn't know everything doesn't mean I can't learn from what has worked, and now what hasn't worked from him. I thought he was quite honest on his follow up talk about how certain things that worked in Gatlinburg didn't work for him in other markets.

Danny have you 4-walled some shows before? I should maybe add you to the list!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 11, 2018 02:24PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Few admit failure, especially here on this board. [/quote]


Man, this is one of the mos true statements offered on this board. I remember a couple of years ago when you actually tried to start a thread about this and few chose to participate. I am a firm believer that we can learn so much from others mistakes, setbacks, and experiences.

As far as "So do you think Cohen and Watkins are missing out by not knowing the "elements you referred to"? I think they know what they have done, in their own market, in their own venue, in their own situation, but not many other aspects of 2/4 walling - just what they've experienced. While I would need to know their entire deal and arrangement (which they and most aren't willing to share, which is understandable) to reveal in detail, they probably have income from some kind of split or guarantee, and maybe some BOR, but that is likely about it. Sure they may also get other bookings out of it, but that really isn't likely part of their deals except for possible referrals by the venue.

There are many other possible profit centers and income resources in a 2/4 wall deal that are rarely discussed and likely unknown to many including even those doing it. I know the guy that I referred to above doesn't have a clue, as I said, most don't.

I recently spoke to a famous comedian that has 2/4 four-walled in Las Vegas for over a decade and when he asked me about his, he admitted he had no clue about these and that how it could've made his decade much less risky and more profitable.

As for are they are missing this? Probably not as far as they will think as it is hard to miss something you don't know. Also, I don't claim to know their individual interests, experience and desired outcomes that they are seeking. It is easy for others to think it is the same as yours, but more times than not, it may not be and may not be the same as others. Most think of 2/4 wall deals only in the context of having their own residency show and income from it, but in reality, there are many other reasons, purposes, business models and desired outcomes that are possible.

Most fail miserably only because they lack knowledge, information, and experience. This often prevents miserable failure and reduce such from happening. I do think many go into such deals without knowledge or education, most with minimal knowledge. A 3/4 wall deal is a business. It's hard to fathom someone going into a business without any knowledge or experience, yet we do see it all the time in the bar, restaurant, and other industries. The point is most don't look at this as a business venture, bit rather a self-produced booking.

The other point is, to the point Cafécheckers was making, is even if these guys openly revealed everything they know and have learned and how they did it, others in the magic community would then think all they have to do is follow their details and steps and the same will happen for them. This is how so much in the magic community works, when in reality learning their knowledge and details in no way assures you (anyone) for the same results. There are many factors, sometimes unique factors (The Waldorf Hotel!) that would never be the same for you (anyone) attempting to do the same.

This is the problem I have with guys that share "their story", "their experience" or "how they did it" as it is nothing more than their personal limited experience. It is incomplete to the overall greater picture on the topic. Now, of course, you have to know this to realize this. I think some of these types of guys realize this which is why they don't lecture in great detail or release anything on it.

Actually, it was Danny's bad 4-wall experience a major loss, combined with his direct, honest (whether people here like to hear it or not) perspectives in his posts and contributions here, from the real world front lines, that first connected us (not to mention I was aware of him for years because of working in the same circles/markets and his submissions to my agencies). When I was taking one of my shows to Branson and negotiating the deal, he was one of the first industry professionals I reached out to.

Of course, we have both done 2/4 wall deals, why else would be be talking about them and having such insight?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2018 02:31PM)
I failed at a 4 wall deal so badly I wanted to hire a bouncer to throw people INTO the place!

Thomas if you have not read my posts on failure and how it can help and all that then you simply are not paying attention, or just want to argue.

This is my single largest complaint about the Café' in general is that nobody ever fails. Nobody has setbacks, nobody ever does anything that is wrong. I am the ONLY idiot in the world of magic who fails at anything LOL.

Read all the books, nobody ever fails. Now listen to the podcasts, nobody ever fails. It is all spin and outright LIES about it and it lures other unsuspecting kids into the same stupid mistakes.

There are SO many threads here about how someone whoever is going to do X show, and it will be great and such. Then when we ask to hear the results, NOTHING. Radio silence. You know full well they have failed and don't have the cajones to admit it.

Then you get the nonsense of "if you learned from it you didn't fail" to try to be supportive because after all we are "magicians helping magicians". (TO FAIL.)

I have in one way or another failed in almost every market I have ever tried. Does that mean I left them? NO! It means I learned from that failure and moved on until I WAS a success. But nobody, and I mean NOBODY knows everything going into any market and Branson is a PERFECT example. But all anyone seems to care about is ego and "I didn't fail".

There is a show in Branson right now that is on the outside a HUGE draw and success. Until of course you realize he is selling ticket brokers $1 tickets. He probably has 500 people a night, and has $800 in costs, but he thinks he is doing GREAT because he has people in his audience that paid a buck for the show and applaud for him. That is terrifyingly stupid.

Don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a temporary state. Or at least it can be.

And to swerve this back on topic, ANY coaching program that does not allow for failure is not one I would want to take. One that does not teach a person how to use failure to become something is not worth taking. Obviously nobody here does that, I mean those other coaching courses and those other people.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jun 11, 2018 02:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2018, thomasR wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mindpro was referring to Bill Gladwell. I got value from his online talks. Just because he doesn't know everything doesn't mean I can't learn from what has worked, and now what hasn't worked from him. I thought he was quite honest on his follow up talk about how certain things that worked in Gatlinburg didn't work for him in other markets.
[/quote]


The point is many listen to lectures like this as coming from some type of authority or experience where they have worked out the bugs and figured out what has worked (for them). The problem is it was very basic, quite incomplete and had many potentially dangerous holes in it. I have several students and others I have heard from that had some bad (and costly) experiences from following this limited and incomplete info. So while you and others think you received value, insight, and knowledge, it is more about what wasn't included (or known) that can create the real issues.

Since you are talking about Bill Gladwell, even he said he had no idea what he was doing, basically just winging it. He even kind of proudly boasts about this and the fact that heck he didn't have a show or wasnt even a mentalist when he booked a mentalism show! He tossed something together in a few days/weeks. Again, more or less winging it. This may be fine for him, in his situation and market, but to offer and eventually sell this information can again be dangerous. Perhaps not intentionally, I've spoken to Bill and don't believe he even realized this or would ever do it intentionally.

This seems to happen a lot on the magic community, people offer their limited information thinking it will help someone, not completely understanding how such limted or incompelte informaton can hurt or cause damage to others. Then of course performer's receive and accept this info in their own context, not necessarily as offered, and that too can have consequences.

Also, it should be said that Bill is a professional Salesman by trade/occupation. That is his background and profession. He approached his deal as a salesman, not necessarily from a point of being an entertainment producer or a complete entertainment business position. This is something that is rarely ever talked about. Sooo many, almost all, interested in the concept of 2/4 walling are interested in how to find/get a venue and the type of deal to put together. Hardly ever will you hear them ask about or be interested in what it truly takes and what needs to be in known, done and in place to execute the deal properly for all 5 parties involved. What it truly takes for the deal to be successful on all levels.

Typically what I have seen happen in the majority of situations is onc ethey have the venue an dget the deal, all they want to do is then focus on their show. This alone will almost asure failure.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jun 11, 2018 03:49PM)
"Thomas if you have not read my posts on failure and how it can help and all that then you simply are not paying attention, or just want to argue. "

Oh I wasn't trying to argue with you at all Danny, I fully agree with everything you just said!!!
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jun 11, 2018 05:24PM)
[quote]
And to swerve this back on topic, ANY coaching program that does not allow for failure is not one I would want to take. One that does not teach a person how to use failure to become something is not worth taking. Obviously nobody here does that, I mean those other coaching courses and those other people. [/quote]

This is a great point. I strongly agree that failure is critical in the learning process. In fact, I would say that the way a coach reacts to situations involving failure or mistakes is perhaps the best way to determine true capabilities. To me, it is like a swimming coach in that the coach has to know how to avoid complete drowning without stepping in every time the beginner feels like he/she is drowning.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 11, 2018 05:55PM)
It is knowing the difference in drowning and learning to swim that makes the difference.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jun 15, 2018 11:37PM)
[quote]On Jun 11, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a temporary state. Or at least it can be.[/quote]

I have benefitted the most from failure when I owned it and did not pass it off as “it was meant to be” or “things happen for a reason” or other statements that seem like a positive attitude on the surface, but are really defense mechanisms to somehow remove fault or blame.

I also think one of the benefits of having a solid work ethic is that one can not only get more things done, but also expose themselves to failure more often and quickly because the greater activity produces both positive and negative results. Failing fast allows learning opportunities. For me, failing when I am younger and have fewer responsibilities outside of my business is the ideal time to take risks and learn from failures.

While I try not to fear failure, I try to minimize it by taking calculated risks. Here is one place coaching has really proven beneficial
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jun 16, 2018 12:29AM)
Yep. Problems are just solutions wearing work clothes.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jul 28, 2018 08:19AM)
Quote:

On Jul 27, 2018, Theodore Lawton wrote (in another Tricky Business thread):
This is getting exciting because I can begin to understand it now.

I've learned more about magic as a business here in the last several days than in all my first 8-10 years as a magician.


This is also one of the many benefits to coaching programs and working with the right professional coach that knows exactly what you need even before you do. If you feel this now after just a few threads in an open forum, imagine what is possible with information, direction, and specified content directly to your own interest and business. (I don't specifically mean Theodore, he's not coach-interested or ready yet, but just more, in general, to further explain the "whys" and benefits to coaching).

It can make it much easier, quicker, immediately applicable and truly save you years off of the learning curve, creating results almost instantly. I am glad the very basics and beginning were able to be played out here for all to see just the very beginning tip of the iceberg on the most basic level with a beginner (even with ten years experience).
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Oct 20, 2018 10:16PM)
I thought I would share a recent updates:
I am back in school now. I have been preparing elevator pitches for class and contests. Mindpro has been working with me to create and deliver effective pitches. He has been very helpful during this time because my entertainment business differs from the businesses we generally discuss in class. More education has to be provided regarding my product vs most other products or services that are more easily described. I have been getting positive feedback from fellow students and faculty. These pitches have been mostly directed toward potential investors of ones business, but I have worked on client pitches with Mindpro outside of my academics. We also worked on several radio appearances I recently participated in.

What you put into coaching is what you get out of it:
One thing I have been discovering is that my coaching sessions become more productive the more I share about my business with Mindpro. That may seem obvious, but I can only say that for me it took a while better synchronize my perspectives. Technology such as Google Docs allows input from multiple aspects of expertise, so having a coach integrated into those files is another dynamic way to benefit.

One way I enjoy learning is through story telling. Mindpro continues to match his past experiences with dilemmas or opportunities I am involved in. Story telling allows me to visualize things better.

I am preparing for a Entrepreneurial Business Competition where I have 12 minutes to present my business and 10 additional minutes to respond to questions. I am one of seven finalists across Upstate NY. I am using this opportunity to clarify my business model and communicate my vision. Even in the week I have worked on it so far has been extremely rewarding. I have been assigned a local “coach” to assist me. While I have several additional people assisting in the preparations, it is so nice to have a business coach that intimately knows my industry and business, my communication style, personal preferences, strengths, and development areas as I work through the preparation phase.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Oct 20, 2018 11:13PM)
I just realized I posted using my brothers account, LOL. That’s what happens when he uses my computer without telling me.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 21, 2018 01:46PM)
Yes, so many things have been happening and so quickly too. I have to step back and remember that you are still a student in school as your priority and are only operating on a limited part-time basis. Even at the current level you, are performing and earning more than many that are full-time and have been doing this for ten years or more.

Some very, very exciting things are still upcoming that will take this to even greater levels. So excited for you!
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Nov 1, 2018 11:44AM)
[quote]On Nov 1, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Rather than coaching, I suggest having a performing magician watch and analyze your show from magicians perspective. In the same audience get a lay person to answer a questionnaire with what you want to know or the same areas the magician, is looking at. Compare the two and see, what works and what doesn't? [/quote]
This is good advice, but in no way is a substitute for coaching, as the discussions one has with a coach extend way beyond the performance. Additionally, while feedback from various perspectives is beneficial, it is extremely valuable to ensure that there is feedback from someone who intimately knows your strengths, weaknesses, goals, as well as contributing factors to the success or failure of a particular performance.
[quote]BEWARE of online experts who CLAIM clients and vast knowledge. If they truly had such knowledge would they share it with you and cut their own throats? Doesn't make sense does it? [/quote]
Generally speaking, good advice to beware of any claims made. One real benefit to participating here and putting your time in is that you get the opportunity to see past claims and ego. I think the logic regarding questioning why someone would share knowledge with someone else is flawed. Your assuming that everyone views sharing knowledge as hurting themselves, but that is often not the case. Additionally, many people receive great personal satisfaction in helping others succeed, even beyond the level of success they personally experienced.
[quote] Also check out when they are online and ask yourself, if they are so successful and busy, why do they spend so much time here? ;) [/quote]
This is very flawed logic. Successful people often have enormous amounts of leisure time. Who are we to question how they spend it?
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Nov 10, 2018 07:38PM)
[quote]On Sep 17, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So we commit to it. Burn the boats if you will. Google Cortez or read this for a reference. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/chrismyers/2016/06/08/burning-the-boats-how-we-found-success-by-getting-rid-of-our-safety-net/amp/

I happen to believe that in an unrelated point performers who do not burn their boats have more trouble succeeding than those who do. I'm not encouraging anyone to so. Just pointing out an opinion. [/quote]

This is a quote I brought to this thread because it was when I decided that I intended to “burn my boat” that I sought coaching. While my classmates are in the process of seeking employment and interviewing with perspective employers, I am preparing the transition to being a full time business owner. I do so knowing that with my experience and grade point average I could be working for a good salary and full benefits right out of school, without many of the pressures of running a business. I share this because I believe that one should afford themselves whatever opportunities to learn and develop before they “burn their bridge”. For those who are young reading this, take full advantage of every resource you can and gain as much experience performing as possible, before the bullets fly live and you burn your boat. I am not sure what lies ahead, but feel a sense of confidence that has been afforded to me through my years working part time, college pursuit, and industry specific coaching.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Dec 30, 2018 11:21AM)
Hi everyone – This past week while speaking with Mindpro on our weekly call, he asked me for my perspectives on how this past year went. This was a discussion beyond just the numbers, and involved my sense of success, failure, opportunities and challenges in a conversational way. It forced me to verbalize some of the thoughts I have on how I can grow my business in a more optimal way. It was good to have someone outside of my family and business to discuss these essential things. It was equally important to do so with someone who knows my business intimately.
Do others have such individuals you can turn to? Do you feel you benefit from having such discussions?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 30, 2018 12:47PM)
It’s always a great thing to be able to discuss plans with those who are able to listen and give ideas, thoughts and new perspectives.
I think it’s also a good idea to have discussions with people from various business backgrounds. For instance, those who have production managed large arena tours will have different thoughts and insight as to those who have only sat in an office and booked shows. While the later knows how to get bookings, which is the #1 need of an entertainer for financial success, the former may give some insight on how to accomplish performing a show in a professional manner.

If you are doing restaurant magic, restaurant managers would be invaluable to befriend. Etc.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Dec 30, 2018 08:23PM)
[quote]On Dec 30, 2018, thomasR wrote:
It’s always a great thing to be able to discuss plans with those who are able to listen and give ideas, thoughts and new perspectives.
I think it’s also a good idea to have discussions with people from various business backgrounds. For instance, those who have production managed large arena tours will have different thoughts and insight as to those who have only sat in an office and booked shows. While the later knows how to get bookings, which is the #1 need of an entertainer for financial success, the former may give some insight on how to accomplish performing a show in a professional manner.

If you are doing restaurant magic, restaurant managers would be invaluable to befriend. Etc. [/quote]

I agree with everything here, but I was more thinking along the lines of having an “end of year” type discussion with someone else. I did not properly phrase my post. While most people think about a year in review and New Year Resolutions at this time of the year, I found it valuable to have that discussion with my coach.

Wether it is a coach, friend, mentor, or anyone outside of your family and business, I wonder if others discuss their year end thoughts with someone as well as things they want to accomplish the following year. If so, it might be interesting to hear who that person is and why the person selected them and the value they get from it.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 30, 2018 10:21PM)
I currently don’t have anyone outside of family members. I wish I did, and in the past I have, but those people I’ve lost as much contact with over the years.
I agree, not just at the end of the year it’s invaluable to get thoughts and ideas from others.

I will say, for me, I’m looking forward to 2019 more so than any past year I can think of. Last year was extremely successful for my company, although not in my magic / variety shows. But that gives me a great budget to work with to get a new project off the ground this year.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 30, 2018 11:31PM)
[quote]On Dec 30, 2018, Cafécheckers wrote:
Wether it is a coach, friend, mentor, or anyone outside of your family and business, I wonder if others discuss their year end thoughts with someone as well as things they want to accomplish the following year. If so, it might be interesting to hear who that person is and why the person selected them and the value they get from it. [/quote]

One of the things that I have always done at my companies (agencies, production company, and promotion company) is we have a formal year-end week of meetings to review the past year and preview and set goals for the new upcoming year. For many years I would take my entire team (staff) to Hawaii for these meetings. So valuable and productive, also a great way to bond, keep everyone motivated, primed and on the same page. It really keeps a real and true perspective. So valuable. It is one of my favorite and most productive weeks of the entire year.

As Cafécheckers mentioned I also like doing this with all of my coaching/mentoring students, consulting clients and all of our major longtime client accounts. It proves helpful and beneficial in so many ways.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Jan 4, 2019 06:12PM)
[quote]On Dec 30, 2018, thomasR wrote:
I will say, for me, I’m looking forward to 2019 more so than any past year I can think of. Last year was extremely successful for my company, although not in my magic / variety shows. But that gives me a great budget to work with to get a new project off the ground this year. [/quote]

Likewise, I am very much looking forward to 2019! These first few days have been super fruitful for me, as I have been booking many first time clients as well as meeting with some potential clients I have been trying to get in front of for quite some time. The investment I made in learning the business has greatly enhanced my approach and confidence and I am seeing tangible results. Really exciting times!
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 6, 2019 08:25AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
I am back in school now. I have been preparing elevator pitches for class and contests. Mindpro has been working with me to create and deliver effective pitches. He has been very helpful during this time because my entertainment business differs from the businesses we generally discuss in class. [/quote]

This is a very interesting and important point that has risen its head again today (not with Cafécheckers) that I thought I would share here. Another of my coaching students/clients just received his Masters in Business this past Spring. Anticipating this significant time forthcoming back in early March we started working together knowing school would be completed soon and he hoped to launch his entertainment business over the summer.

When he came to me I had some concerns about his perception of getting his degree and then thinking he would simply just walk into a successful entertainment business as he has initially explained to me in his coaching application. Well, his enthusiasm and exuberance was exciting (rather than others who come to me completely frustrated, defeated and "as a last resort") as he passed my qualification throughout the application process, so I agreed to take him on as a client.

As we began his weekly coaching sessions he quickly hit a realization over the course of a couple of months. Originally he believed strongly that he had all of the business knowledge needed from his schooling and degree - he was ready to take it into the real world. I think he in his mind initially thought of me as a passenger on this ride to assist him over the summer and to kind of look over his shoulder as he came on like a whirlwind - grab the degree and take the entertainment world by storm.

Long story short, he got smacked right in the face with a dose of real-world reality within two weeks of getting his degree. Within a quick couple of months, he finally had a breakthrough coming to the realization that his formal education helped prepare him only basically or on a surface level for what we soon faced in the entertainment industry.

Now I know many "hot-shot" graduates come out of school and think they know it all only to have a rude awakening in the real world. I was actually expecting that as part of our learning process together, but this was much more. To his credit, while not accepting this at first the realization came quickly. He soon identified something that I have said over and over again - "the entertainment business is not like regular or conventional business."

He has said several times now over the 8 months that what he learned through our coaching and training, he felt was more valuable than the Master's Degree he received for all his years of schooling. He was open enough to see it, identify it, realize it and experience it first hand. He is currently, with my guidance, reworking his business model and business plan and 2019 should be a great year for us.

I love it when one experiences a breakthrough and sees the light - experiences the true understanding of this industry and business. He will soon have a business based on a realistic solid foundation, that will have 6 profit sources and yield close to (if not over) six figures by the end of his first year.

The point is not all education is the same, formal education such as business programs will not always be enough for the real world. Yes, you receive principles and foundational business components and theories, but it's understanding the differences in entertainment business and the real world application of these differences (and my unique principles) that will truly make the difference for him.

I hear it quite often but it is a beautiful thing when these guys (and gals) will say they learned more working with an entertainment business specialist in a year or two (in his case just after several months) than they did from throughout their entire formal education years. This guy, in particular, keeps focusing on all the student loans he incurred from his formal education when he could have paid me a fraction of that amount and invested in his business instead.

So I agree that this direct education and hands-on training that comes with coaching is much different - much more specific and direct, than the type of education learned in school or standard business education.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 6, 2019 10:33AM)
In the above comment, Mindpro links formal (general) education to more industry-specific education/coaching.

I am continually shocked at the lack of general business knowledge magicians, and other entertainers, have and yet they seek a silver bullet with a guru (language I've seen on this section of the Café) to take their magic business to lofty levels.

Like I'm sure many of you, I am bombarded with ads from successful magicians promoting their coaching programs. I often listen to their video or audio pitches tipping some ideas and have, on occasion, purchased material from them. Much of what I've seen is included in basic business courses. Certainly there is value in industry-specific information, but that information is so much more valuable when added to general knowledge anyone operating a business should know and understand.

I strongly recommend visiting the local book store and picking up few books on marketing, sales, and even one of those MBA-summary books (The Ten Day MBA?) I hesitate to recommend specific books - I have an MBA and haven't read the summary books that are out there.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 6, 2019 10:50AM)
It is not uncommon to come out of college into ANY job and then spend the next few years learning how things really are. It happens in the Police Academy, trade schools, and the armed forces as well. Out of boot camp and you go to learn what your job really is. It us not a new phenomenon.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 6, 2019 01:04PM)
[quote]On Jan 6, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is not uncommon to come out of college into ANY job and then spend the next few years learning how things really are. It happens in the Police Academy, trade schools, and the armed forces as well. Out of boot camp and you go to learn what your job really is. It us not a new phenomenon. [/quote]

I agree 100%. That is why I continue to be surprised with entertainers display a shocking lack of fundamental business knowledge (which can be gained by either formal schooling or reading a few books).

Hudson
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 6, 2019 03:15PM)
Me too.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jan 9, 2019 11:31PM)
I would encourage an MBA student to work with a entertainment coach while in school to enhance their experience. My brother has done this during his undergraduate business program and is amazed at how little his classmates truly learn because most do not have actual businesses and cannot directly apply what they learn. When it is just theory with no practice, the passion and deep interest in the material are seldom sustained. Students also create false perceptions of what is actually need to successfully compete. A coach can really help focus the student and take the foundational content taught in the formal education to deeper levels.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 11, 2019 10:00AM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2019, charliecheckers wrote:
I would encourage an MBA student to work with a entertainment coach while in school to enhance their experience. My brother has done this during his undergraduate business program and is amazed at how little his classmates truly learn because most do not have actual businesses and cannot directly apply what they learn. When it is just theory with no practice, the passion and deep interest in the material are seldom sustained. Students also create false perceptions of what is actually need to successfully compete. A coach can really help focus the student and take the foundational content taught in the formal education to deeper levels. [/quote]

Perhaps you misunderstood my commments. I am not at all suggesting that someone aspiring to be a professional entertainer pursue an MBA, but rather that they have a basic understanding of business fundamentals and then learn the unique aspects of this industry. One way to do this is an MBA, but that is an expensive way to go. Most MBA students at good schools have several years of work experience and are typically on a more traditional business track.

The exception to this might be pursuing an MBA in entrepreneurship, but again this is an expensive path. Tuition at a top MBA program now is around $50,000 per year for two years. There are probably graduate and undergraduate programs developed for entertainers, but I am not aware of them.

Again, my recommendation for any self-employed entertainer is to complement their entertainment training (coaching, lessons, etc) with self study or perhaps community college courses on business finance and marketing.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jan 11, 2019 05:18PM)
Hudson- I was not specifically responding to your post, just the point of the MBA and my thought of combining it with coaching as beneficial to the experience. I was not suggesting one pursue an MBA for their entertainment business, but saying that if they are enrolling in one, to think of ways to get the most out of it if they are involved in entertainment at all. For example, I know Mindpro has students that are physicians/dentists first, but also want to better approach their magic/entertainment business. One who is on a traditional business track, pursuing an MBA may benefit from using their part time business as an example for school projects. If so, coaching would allow them an additional and alternative perspective.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 11, 2019 07:24PM)
We are in agreement.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jan 11, 2019 09:38PM)
Hudson- you mentioned you have an MBA degree. Would you be willing to share your story, why you pursued an MBA, and what it has meant to you? Also, are there specific things you see lacking in entertainers as it relates to the business concepts they might learn by reading books you suggested. Thanks.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 12, 2019 11:26AM)
I agree as I think MBA and different degree programs offer part of a solid general business foundation, it is always suggested and extremely beneficial, in addition, to get specialized education and training, in this case, specialized entertainment business training. Let's face it, most get into entertainment for the art side and with little care, concern or knowledge, and know or pay little attention to the science, psychological and unique components that comprise the business side of what they do.

I have long said entertainment business has its own set of rules and those that try to operate an entertainment business conventionally can usually only do so on a general level and only on a basic possible level of success. I say after this general level it's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole. It's very interesting to me that once those I work with receives an in-depth education and training in entertainment business, they use very little or only minimal general business approach in their business execution, design and operation.

To touch on this further a couple of interesting (and unexpected things) have occurred over the last five years or so that are very exciting and encouraging. First, while I've often said conventional business often doesn't work (other than on a basic, general level) for entertainment business, I am finding more and more people have been adapting my entertainment business principals, knowledge, strategies and uniquenesses and are having great success in applying it to other businesses. Seems my entertainment business content is working well in many other general and specific business applications.

Secondly, after years of speaking at colleges and universities to business and entrepreneurs classes and associations, last year I was approached to include much of my entertainment business knowledge, content, approach and specific content to a university MBA program. Both of these are very exciting to me and a testament to what I have created, executed and now educate others to as part of my resources, coaching, consulting and mentoring. It is very exciting. I am actually looking forward to the next recession for final proof under the college's own interests as to my system and content actually being recession-proof. Again, all very exciting.

I agree that many MBA programs should require students to have an actual business to be creating or operating as part of the program, allowing them to see, feel and experience the content being learned rather than operating from a theory perspective or theoretic understanding in just a classroom setting.

Information is much more powerful and impactful when experienced and seen in action from within the inside.

Charliecheckers is correct that I have doctors, lawyers, dentists, CPAs, police officers, and students/clients form a wide variety of professions and walks of life who also as performers started learning and executing my coaching and educational content to their performing businesses. Soon, many of them found themselves actually using and applying the material and strategies to their primary business or profession to fantastic results. They did this on their own without my initial knowledge. Eventually, a few questions started to surface and it made us all realize the much greater impact of my material outside of just entertainment. This has been really exciting.

I have been used to helping students and clients achieve six-figure results in their entertainment business, but this was a whole new welcome addition with limitless new opportunities.

All education and information is not equal, and as students and business owners must discover it is up to us to learn what is available, specifically applicable, and most directly beneficial to our interests, businesses and careers.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 12, 2019 12:01PM)
[quote]On Jan 6, 2019, 55Hudson wrote:
I am continually shocked at the lack of general business knowledge magicians, and other entertainers, have and yet they seek a silver bullet with a guru (language I've seen on this section of the Café) to take their magic business to lofty levels.

Like I'm sure many of you, I am bombarded with ads from successful magicians promoting their coaching programs. I often listen to their video or audio pitches tipping some ideas and have, on occasion, purchased material from them. Much of what I've seen is included in basic business courses. Certainly there is value in industry-specific information, but that information is so much more valuable when added to general knowledge anyone operating a business should know and understand.
[/quote]

You are very correct. Magic and entertainment to many are considered a marketing niche, not an industry. The trend in education over the last few decades has been taking basic, general business knowledge and ADAPTING the very same information to new niches, appearing new or as "breakthrough new information" to these niches.

Furthermore, the guys that first started doing this (Dave Dee, Joel Bauer, and other magician-turned-marketing-gurus, depending on how far back you wish to go) simply repackaged general business information and new "magic business" insights and targeted this uninformed, uneducated market.

Why were they uninformed? Because magic and many types of performing require no specialized business knowledge, skills or plan to start. Same for bars and restaurants. How many owners of these venues do you see starting their businesses who absolutely no knowledge, skills or experience in running these types of businesses? You see it weekly on Kitchen Nightmares, Restaurant Impossible, and other similar shows. They think just because they go to bars and restaurants they are somehow knowledgeable and educated enough to run their own. It's crazy!

They run and base their business on their own thoughts, beliefs, preferences, and perceptions. Nothing else. So it is the ignorant, uneducated person starting their own business based on a complete lack of knowledge and education. Can we not see why these have some of the highest failure rates among businesses?

Entertainment is the same way. Between having no knowledge or industry education and creating and operating from their uneducated position and point of views, and then combining that with the copy-at, monkey-see-monkey-do approach that many magicians and entertainers do (which is literally the blind leading the blind as the uninformed, unknowledgeable beginner, is simply following the uninformed, uneducated entertainer who is still struggling themselves.)

Of course, this creates a great target market for rehashing old general business information in a shiny new "just for magicians (or entertainers) packaging.

This is why much "magician's marketing" or business programs are so unimpressive and ineffective. The only possible things taken are by those so uneducated that they are learning the old, general, common stuff for the very first time and mistakenly and mispercetively believe the creator of the book or course is somehow presenting new material.

I wish performers could just operate from a position of total honesty and say - I know nothing about business - general business and the business of performing/entertainment. If everyone started from their place of complete honesty it would be so much easier for them to learn and to become educated, be able to understand the difference in quality information and repackaged, rehashed, non-effective information, and set themselves on the best, most direct path to their own success much quicker.

However, because as we actually see here often, they can't be honest with themselves, and they become their own worst enemy. Eventually, the need for direct, specific industry knowledge and information as it applies directly to them and their businesses becomes their best option as most won't go back to get the education they should have sought in the beginning.
Message: Posted by: 55Hudson (Jan 12, 2019 02:22PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2019, charliecheckers wrote:
Hudson- you mentioned you have an MBA degree. Would you be willing to share your story, why you pursued an MBA, and what it has meant to you? Also, are there specific things you see lacking in entertainers as it relates to the business concepts they might learn by reading books you suggested. Thanks. [/quote]

Happy to provide my background and my thoughts.
- Began magic as a life-long hobby in high school, with no aspiration of being a professional magician.
- Graduated from West Point and served over a decade in the US Army
- Left the service during the post-Iraq War draw down and attend The Wharton School, where I obtained an MBA in Finance
- Spent 20 years in business. During that period, became involved with Open Heart Magic, a nonprofit that entertains and teaches magic to hospitalized children at their bedside. My experience with Open Heart Magic encouraged me to change tracks and become a professional magician
- For five years, I took lessons and dedicated efforts toward raising my amateur magic skills to those of a professional
- In 2013 I left corporate life to become a full-time magician

Obviously not the traditional path and why I wasn't interested in magic coaching when I was in school -- at that time, I never imagined I would perform for a living. When I did decided to pursue magic, I did spend the time, money, and effort to raise my skills and to better understand the market.

In general I agree with a lot of Mindpro's comments, but do differ on his statements regarding the uniqueness of the magic industry (as a subset of entertainment industry, bus since I don't have experience outside of magic, I will limit my comments to that space)

Directly after graduating from Wharton, I worked for McKinsey & Company, the oldest strategy consulting firm in the world. As a generalist, we were moved from assignment to assignment and from industry to industry. It didn't take long to learn how lessons from one industry could be directly applied to another industry -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "but our industry is different from every other industry". Let's see, you design a product, buy materials, make the product, and sell the product. You are just like every other industry!

Tongue in cheek, but there are lots of similarities. How does this apply to me? Market segmentation is the area where the alignment between theory and practice in the magic industry seems to be the greatest. It is also the area that many of the pitches I hear from magicians selling their coaching services seems to be coming from. I focus on the corporate market, more specifically companies that use internal resources to hire entertainment for their events - HR, Marketing, or the Executive Assistant tasked with this job as an extra duty. One reason I target this segment is that I understand them very well. It's the world I spend 20 years in. My personality, my look, my pitch, my entertainment is perfectly suited for this segment.

Where do coaches help me? In the details and unique aspects of this industry. Tricks of the trade. Also, small business operations -- customer relationships, winning repeat business, effective sales process. Why these topics that seem to be general business? Because all of my experience is with big business, not small business.

Regarding specific reference book recommendations, I would have to go to a local book store and see what was on the shelf. But top of the list would be a general book on marketing (not just advertising, a component of marketing) sales techniques, and a general book on finance or perhaps bookkeeping. I struggle with the finance part, since my MBA is in Finance, not sure how much of it a small business person really needs. Perhaps the Ten Day MBA book would be a good overview.

So three or four books. At $25 or even $50 each, that is maybe $200! A lot? I think not. How much does the typical magician spend on the latest trick that comes out? If you take only one idea from a book and implement it, how much is that idea worth? Take selling technique. If you close rate on sales increases by only 5%, what is that worth to you?

I will make one recommendation. Execution, by Larry Bossidy. Talks about the importance of getting things done, rather than having a great strategy. Worth the read.

After reading a few of these books, then I would seek out coaching or industry-specific books. In this way, you are able to see the industry-specific recommendations versus general theory. Why is this important? Helps you understand specific things that worked for the person providing the information versus generally accepted business concepts. Now you can pick and chose your path with greater knowledge.

An example of this is The Approach, by Jamie D. Grant. A very specific road map to getting a standing restaurant gig. Combine this with general business knowledge and your business strategy and you can make a go of it as a professional magician.

Know this is a lot to read through, Hope it has been helpful. Always happy to have a conversation offline as well.

Hudson
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Jan 30, 2019 08:50AM)
Hudson- Wow! Thanks for your detailed response. Wharton is an elite business and finance school. Your recommendations here are great. Sometimes people offering suggestions tend to discount their own education and experiences somewhat. I think in this post you were more thorough in moving from general books in theory to more focused books and assistance via coaching or industry specific books. I think this is great advice, especially for those of us who do not have strong backgrounds in the entertainment business or an educational background in business from a top institution.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Feb 20, 2019 10:32AM)
“Then again my business model was quite simple. Learn a show and go do it”

I personally feel like that’s the best “coaching” anyone can get.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Feb 21, 2019 12:24AM)
[quote]On Feb 20, 2019, thomasR wrote:
“Then again my business model was quite simple. Learn a show and go do it”

I personally feel like that’s the best “coaching” anyone can get. [/quote]

If it were that easy everyone would be successful. That also actually has nothing to do with coaching, nor is it a business model.

Many performers have a great show that are sitting home complaining that they're broke or can't get any work. Learning a great show in no way guarantees success.

Books you'll find online, free, or on Amazon also are no replacement for personal coaching - not even close.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Feb 21, 2019 01:22PM)
Danny is the one who called it a business model, not me!

I did call it "coaching" but I of course realize it's not the same thing. I personally think getting out and performing lots of shows will teach you more than a coach will. That's my opinion. It's also the best way to get more work in my experience.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 21, 2019 01:49PM)
You book work from work in my experience.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Feb 23, 2019 10:22PM)
[quote]On Feb 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
There are quite a few business free books for both general and performance art people on Amazon. I counted 178 pages and many of the titles have nothing to do with business but if you seek, you shall find many that do. Some titles included How to Work for Yourself, 49 Quick Ways to Market Your Business for Free, The Business Plan Blueprint, Free Funny the eBook, The art of public speaking and many more. Coaching is overrated as what works for one, doesn't always work for all. Best to find your way and let the audience, be your coach. It's what has worked for many of us :) [/quote]

There is so much wrong here. Books are a one way communication and vastly different educational tool vs a coach. “Let your audience be your coach”? What does that even mean, in the context of being offered in a thread created to discuss the value of an entertainment based business coach?

“Coaching is overrated as what works for one, doesn't always work for all.” ? The fact that what works for one, doesn’t always work for all is the strongest argument for coaching I can think of. The coaching I engage in with Mindpro is personal, one on one weekly discussions where he has intimate knowledge of me, my goals and desires, my personal life’s ambitions. He has met several of my family members. He knows my strengths and weaknesses as it relates to every aspect of the business.

We have weekly conversations that explore how to build out my business. Our conversations are specific to my performance, my community, my business model, my markets, my characters, my website, my staffing, my partnerships, my finances, my timetables, my everything. Compare that to other forms of support or advice one can obtain. Books? Yes they are valuable, but no substitute. On-Line Courses? While they have crept into this thread on coaching, they in no way really compare. First of all they are misleading in that they are packaged and presented as more of a how-to manuel, with minimal (or no) interaction with other students or the creator. Again, no comparison to the potential value of coaching.

Our coaching sessions delve deeply into topics. For example, in a recent thread Lou Serrano asked how one knows what their clients value? The answer was to “ask them”. This is a start, but we discuss limitations of this and how to go beyond the perceived needs of clients and provide novel offerings that position my business in a unique way. Only one who knows my skill sets, capabilities and the markets I am in would be able to have such a worthwhile exchange of ideas.

The coaching I receive has nothing to do with motivational rah,rah content. It is industry specific discussions supported by associated tools designed to maximize long term
business growth.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2019 09:06AM)
Audiences are not coaches.

And nobody but you suggested it was for everyone. It is your straw man attempt and it is not correct.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Feb 24, 2019 10:01AM)
[quote]On Feb 24, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
And how has your business grown since beginning your coaching? Does what you pay for coaching offset the to the amount of money your making using the advice your getting? Could you have learned what your learning for free with a mentor? Would a college business course have taught you much of what the so called coach is teaching you? What special skills has your coach brought to you that you couldn't have gotten elsewhere?
These and more are the questions one might ask before trusting in a self described coach. What are their qualifications to coach? How is their business going? Are they successful and do you want what they have? Will the money you spend be well spent? Colleges and universities hire well trained documented individuals to teach their curriculum. I have never heard of a coach fitting the bill. Colleges and universities use book as the foundation of learning. I have never heard of coaches being a substitute for books.
If your happy by all means stay with your coach and I hope it works out for you? But to think that coaching is for everybody is just WRONG and not the be all end all of business. [/quote]

Your questions are all legitimate, and the type of questions one should ask themselves before investing in anything. I know you are rather new to this thread, but I have answered most of what you have asked, in detail. I even created a video and included the link in a post. Coaches are not a substitute for books, agreed. Likewise, books are not a substitute for coaches. They are two different entities that can work well in tandem.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else that they should have a coach.

Audiences being the ones who pay your services is only one business model and represents a tiny portion of the members who are in discussions here. Even then, there are many other elements to success than listening to audience members. Many fan favorite performers are flat broke.

I agree with Danny’s quote. Most who claim to be coaches would be ineffective and might even get in one’s way.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2019 10:43AM)
Absolutely true. The VAST majority of coaches exist in order to justify their fee. No doubt.

Thisin no way invalidates the process, or speaks to the efficiency of ALL coaches.

My problem is when any of us wants to universalize their own experience. I personally do but benefit from coaching in business and never thought I would. This does not mean it isn't a very good idea for others.

Everyone had their own experience they bring to the table. All of it is valid in one way or the other. Nobody is wrong about having our not having a coach. It is all about what is right for you.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Oct 11, 2019 10:14PM)
Now that this thread is unlocked and I have been full time for a while, I thought I would post an update on how coaching has impacted me and my business.

Shortly after I graduated college last May, I realized that if I hoped to reach my goals and time lines, I would need greater assistance. Specifically, I began focusing on markets I previously only dabbled in - schools and fair/festival. I also needed more guidance in how to simultaneously build out my greater vision of a more encompassing entertainment company. I invested more time and money into coaching and related services Mindpro offers. I needed to evaluate and improve nearly every aspect of my business.

Mindpro attended two of my performances and viewed video of several additional complete shows. He observed and provided detailed critique of every component of my appearance - from the time I arrived on site, unloaded my vehicle, set up, performed my show, interacted with the audience and clients afterwards, packed out and left. Previously, I relied on audience reaction, client feedback, rebooking and word of mouth success, family and friends in determining my level of proficiency.

Through the coaching process I realized how much I was missing in terms of opportunity for improvement. I was able to address and improve nearly every aspect of my work. It is so exciting to look back and realize how much I have grown. This is most true of my actual performance quality, because I take pride in how I present myself. I see big improvements in my set, show structure and interactions with clients.

I hired Mindpro to produce my show, but also needed to have materials that clearly communicated how my services fulfilled the desires of potential client. He and his staff created pieces for me and we discussed how/why certain things were incorporated and how they work to achieve the desired results. This was a great learning experience regarding both the specific elements as well as broader business insights.

Being full time has created far more moments where I need guidance and direction, so our frequent conversations help me better address time sensitive decision making for more lucrative outcomes. My earnings and bookings have improved, but it’s not practical to compare to last year, because I was not full time. I am looking forward to 2020 and 2021, when I can really look at year on year growth. I also look at growth relative to achieving my longer term goals of building a more diverse children’s entertainment company. Much of our coaching conversations and actions include this component as well.

For those who have been here when my brother performed regularly with me, I want to share that he is doing well, married, and enjoying his medical residency. He also remains a business partner, contributor to our products, and occasional performer.

I share this update because I hope to encourage others who have ambitions to grow beyond their current level to seek professional guidance, if they believe it will be beneficial. Initially, great advice can be obtained for free right here in the business section. The key is to be humble, ask and be willing to listen. It would be great to hear from others how they approach the desire to build their business, and how they look to others for guidance.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 12:38AM)
Now there is a guy coaching worked for!

By the way anyone interested in my coaching services I can sum it up in two words.

Contact Mindpro.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 12, 2019 06:10PM)
Well no one is saying you’re getting lazy!! Ha.
Nice to hear a report
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Oct 29, 2019 09:34PM)
Thanks for the responses! I imagine, being a coach is not for everyone, as Danny mentions - even longtime successful entertainers. Mindpro has prepared an insane amount of course work, programs, and materials for development in many aspects of entertainment business. When he says his coaching is like an MBA program I know most read it as him bragging, but having experienced it first hand, I can say that it is, in that it is focused on one obtaining a deep understanding of various aspects of their business. Many on TMC can read his posts and see his wisdom, but when it is directed towards my business I get to experience the benefit of knowledge gained live time, it is most rewarding!

Some specific recent examples of where I have gained enormously from my interactions with Mindpro is BOR and Promotional Video preparation. We have sold BOR on and off for nearly nine years. For some period of time I stopped doing so because I felt the BOR was not serving my brand well and often not worth the effort in terms of $ sold. I went back to offering BOR a while ago and Mindpro was able to view my approach and offer advice with respect to placement in my show and verbiage. My sales have gone up exponentially. It is very encouraging to see so many more fans purchasing my branded items.
I currently have the opportunity to have a past client contact many of his associates across the market he is in to promote my services. I am making a video to augment his message. I have a short turn around time. Mindpro has worked tirelessly on viewing my material and offering extremely detailed critique on every aspect of the content and production over multiple edits. My finished product is considerably better that I would have created without such assistance. Details matter in everything we do, but the details Mindpro offered in this video can have an enormous impact on potential clients first impression of my business. I cant imagine conducting such activities void of professional guidance.

These are just a few examples where I can see immediate results, but much of what I am learning takes discipline to apply and time to work towards perfection. It is not intended to be a quick fix.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 30, 2019 12:52PM)
It’s great you are seeing results. Are you handling the video editing yourself? Or you are working with a video editor / producer? Do you see mindro as the producer of your video? A consultant?
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Nov 2, 2019 05:05PM)
I did the editing myself. Compared to those who I compete with, I am proficient in the technical aspects.. I prepared a first draft based upon knowledge and insights I have gained from Mindpro over the years on elements and content centered around a show I had professionally filmed. Mindpro offered critique on the draft. Specifically, he suggested that I reshoot my intro because he didn’t like the background I choose.
He also pointed out ares where my music choice could be improved to better create the desired atmosphere. This is where we spend time broadening my understanding by discussing the “why” behind his critique.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 2, 2019 05:23PM)
Makes sense.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Nov 12, 2019 01:40PM)
An important aspect of the benefit I have received from recent coaching is knowing when to slow down my ambition in furthering business relationships with current clients. My natural tendency is to get them to immediately see how much more we could accomplish by working more closely together on future projects. Unfortunately, this has at times lead to the client not being aligned to my vision, which can have negative consequences. Mindpro has been most helpful in making me understand why this occurs and how to grow in my relationships more appropriately. I believe this could be an area where many people struggle.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 12, 2019 02:10PM)
Sounds better than getting free advice about free ads.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 15, 2019 10:09AM)
Yes, I must say some very exciting things have been happening and this has been a great year. I am even more excited for what is in store in 2020. Cafécheckers in just this short amount of time we have been working together has propelled past most everyone to being near or at the top of his markets (2). He has positioned himself in a class all by himself and is mastering 4 of the 5 types of bookings with his business operational system firing on all cylinders. This has led to some very interesting and exciting opportunities - opportunities that many that have done this for 30, 40 or 50 years have never achieved or made possible.

Where many performers are wondering how their next year, two or more will be, he already has this knowledge firmly in place with room for many additional strategic opportunities to be added. While he may not always speak of it, he has gone from a silent partner in a performing duo who had absolutely little or no dealing in the business aspects of the act (his partner handled this) to becoming and rising to the top of his markets in just the short time we've been working together - all while just in his first few months of working full-time, is such an accomplishment that he should be very proud of.

Very exciting times.
Message: Posted by: cafecheckers (Nov 16, 2019 02:49PM)
[quote]On Nov 15, 2019, Mindpro wrote:. While he may not always speak of it, he has gone from a silent partner in a performing duo who had absolutely little or no dealing in the business aspects of the act (his partner handled this) to becoming and rising to the top of his markets in just the short time we've been working together - all while just in his first few months of working full-time, is such an accomplishment that he should be very proud of.
Very exciting times. [/quote]

I have my brother to thank for doing an incredible job of running our business when he was very young himself. He had the wisdom to come here and learn so much from experienced entertainers. When I made the decision to continue our venture as my full time occupation, he also had the insight to encourage me to seek coaching from Mindpro. He constructed our business to be good at what it was (a part time entity to raise money for college expenses). Growing into a successful career demanded advice and expertise beyond our narrow scope. Simply doing more of the same activities was not going to be enough. As Danny Doyle mentions from time to time: “What got you here wont get your there”.

I have come to enjoy the business aspects of the business more. This is in large part due to the confidence I have gained by following what Mindpro teaches. I know that the way I am doing things creates a positive image in the minds of current and potential clients, This makes me much more sure of myself and it comes across in the way I speak and interact with others. The success it brings in return builds confidence as well.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 17, 2019 09:04AM)
[quote]On Nov 16, 2019, Cafécheckers wrote:
Growing into a successful career demanded advice and expertise beyond our narrow scope. Simply doing more of the same activities was not going to be enough. As Danny Doyle mentions from time to time: “What got you here wont get your there”.

I have come to enjoy the business aspects of the business more. [/quote]

I think you've hit it on the head right there, not just you, but with much of the magic community and really most other types of performers as well. Most begin with little or no knowledge and skills. They learn a few of the elementary basics which is enough to get going. For most, it ends there. They have enough at that point but cease continuing to learn, grow, advance, and evolve. You are right, simply doing more of these minimal basics will NOT be enough or get you any further than that very basic level. In performance and business. That saying of Danny's is one of my favorites too (I may have to borrow it in my trainings, lol.)

Most do not have the proper business knowledge beyond the basic or surface scope. Then it's usually basic general busienss at best. This needs to be realized and then addressed to create a solution. Unfortunately, and I see it every day, most never have the realization or think they can figure it out on their own. I am so glad other professionals (Doctors, Lawyers, Auto/Plane Mechanics, etc.) in other professions do not think this way.

I also agree with your next point - "I have come to enjoy the business aspects of the business more." We fear (and often dread) what we don't know. However, the one thing that I have found consistently through my coaching, consulting, training, and mentoring is that when that fear is replaced with desire or at least true willingness to want to learn or evolve their current level of entertainment business knowledge, it actually becomes enjoyable, exciting and for those that love strategic creativity, actually fun! Especially for performers. We love the creative and entertaining side of what we do. Taking your knowledge and skills and doing it for others for their enjoyment, amazement, and experience. Well, entertainment business is really the same exact thing. The same creativity and personality that we use in our performance is exactly what entertainment business is all about. It is also just as much rewarding as performing itself to many of those I have trained and worked with.

I think it is also actually quite fun to learn the intricacies of entertainment business and how it differs so much from conventional or traditional business. Entertainment is a non-traditional business, so why would one expect traditional business to apply and be optimal? I've always believed, and most of my students will attest, entertainment business is simply more stimulating, inviting, and fun.

It is no longer feared, dreaded or negatively perceived. Instead, it is inviting, anticipating and for some even something they get excited about, enjoy and look forward to every day. There is something extremely exciting to know that whenever the phone rings or you talk to a prospect that that conversation is worth $1,000, $1,500, $2,500, $3,500 or more 70-80% of the time, even for the local $300-$500 performer.

For many this business knowledge, skills and strategies almost becomes a game they enjoy playing every day. Even for those that don't enjoy it on that level, it at least becomes much less intimidating, easy to implement, and can make a world of difference in their performing and income, whether part-time or full. And most are doing this on only 2 hours a day, four days a week once in place.

I do think these are many of the benefits that performers do not even realize until they get into entertainment business and get beyond their being stuck at their current level. Most are there because of themselves, and it is only themselves that must decide to change this, become properly educated and overcome their usually self-imposed obstacles.

Great perspective from Cafécheckers.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 2, 2019 07:01PM)
I have recently started having MindPro coach me. I am very happy with his service and would recommend him to any performer.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2019 08:03PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
I have recently started having MindPro coach me. I am very happy with his service and would recommend him to any performer. [/quote]

Did you speak with any other potential coaches before hiring him?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2019 09:15PM)
He spoke to Mike Ditka but he was out of the price range
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 3, 2019 09:17AM)
I have researched others. I got the best recommendations for MindPro.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2019 10:10AM)
To be fair I like to needle Mindpro because he is a good friend. Nobody should take that as me taking shots at him, his abilities or his program.

I always recommend him when asked. I say things to be amusing but right where the rubber meets the road he is a great coach.

My personal career trajectory would probably not benefited much from a coach. This says more about me than the process.

Mindpro has a lot of experience in areas of entertainment I've never even brushed up against. He is also great at the business end of these things. I believe you will continue to benefit from the purchase.
Message: Posted by: charliecheckers (Dec 3, 2019 11:13AM)
There are some interesting perspectives being discussed across several threads that relate to coaching. Mike Clay has a great post that puts website design, SEO and such in proper context. So many invest a great deal in such areas with no perspective as to where they actually should be investing. They never seek to better understand. Coaching from the right person can save a great deal of time and money that is improperly spent.
Another thread speaks specifically of Mindpro’s coaching as to its worth. ThomasR suggests that if KC Cameron receives his desired outcome, the coaching was worth the money spent. While that is true, I really like how K.C. responded by stating it was already worth his money, period. One cannot always determine value or worth solely on achieving the desired outcome. There is a great deal more to achieving success than hiring the best coach (or not hiring a coach). One should do so to increase their knowledge and improve their odds of success. Never should one believe that if they invest in a coach, they will automatically be successful. Many people., however “fail” and leave feeling it was worth it, just in the learning experience itself.
Danny points out that a coach is not necessary for one to achieve their goals. This is true as well, but for many who do not possess the business experience or have exposure to those that do, it can be a great learning experience. My brother continues to develop his entertainment business skills and I have personally witnessed his growth. These are capabilities he will be able to use throughout his lifetime.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 11:17AM)
Personally, I wouldn't hire mindpro on the simple fact that his performing website is so painfully out date.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 3, 2019 11:35AM)
Haha, I GUARANTEE you that you have not ever seen my performing website. Again, you don't know what you think you know. So you would be basing a decision on unfactual, incorrect information. I also rarely use a website for performing.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 11:51AM)
It says the official performing website for your name... even if you have a new one I would think it's odd to keep that one up at your name domain. But that's just my opinion. :) I'm sure I don't understand the logic that you do.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2019 08:23PM)
Yea. Don't hire him. I mean really do you need to keep trying to say that? Three guys who hire him are outright bragging about results and you for dinner reason insist on this. Don't hire him and let it go.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 08:47PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea. Don't hire him. I mean really do you need to keep trying to say that? Three guys who hire him are outright bragging about results and you for dinner reason insist on this. Don't hire him and let it go. [/quote]

Who’s the 3rd?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 3, 2019 09:00PM)
ThomasR, you are a nice guy, what are you trying to prove? Danny is right. Lay down the bone.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2019 09:27PM)
2 Checkers brothers and KC. If I learned anything in grade school that is 3. But don't let that stop your ranting with no information

Thomas you are not going to use him. But to talk others with successful outcomes into thinking they don't is silly.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 09:30PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
ThomasR, you are a nice guy, what are you trying to prove? Danny is right. Lay down the bone. [/quote]

Why Thanks KC :) And I was genuinely curious who the 3rd is?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 09:42PM)
[quote]On Dec 3, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
2 Checkers brothers and KC. If I learned anything in grade school that is 3. But don't let that stop your ranting with no information

Thomas you are not going to use him. But to talk others with successful outcomes into thinking they don't is silly. [/quote]

Your grade school taught that 1+1 = 3 if 1 has a brother?
I mean that’s silly we are both right. There are 3 people giving him references, but one is the brother of a client so only 2 clients. It’s silly to argue about that... I thought you were actually talking about a 3rd client.

And yeah the website dig was over the line I’ll admit that. My apologies. (Although it is my personal opinion).

Other than that I asked KC if he spoke with other coaches... seems like a reasonable question to ask.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 3, 2019 11:23PM)
This is hilarious! For the longest time guys here would say I had no coaching students or what could I possibly teach that isn't available anywhere else or, of course, "then why don't any of them speak up and share their experiences?" This is a prime example of why (among many other reasons.) Yet, then one or two or more do decide to share their private experiences here publicly, now that is still not enough. Again, hilarious!

There have been many more on the Café who have been successful students and clients if you choose to look outside of Tricky Business that have also posted their experiences. I don't tell them to or tell them not to, it's up to them, but this is exactly why many choose not to. You simply can't please some of the naysayers or skeptics here.

I myself wouldn't share my experience here for different reasons, but even when they do they get questioned as to why even after telling of their great experiences. Cafécheckers, for example, has done more in this first 6 months of being full-time than most do in their first 5-10 years. He has openly said, repeatedly, he has learned and applied more from our coaching than he has from his college degree. KC is kicking **s after just a couple of sessions. Results can happen quite quickly once one commits to their efforts and the program.

What I have always found funny is the ones that truly need coaching or consulting or could truly benefit from it the most are the ones who always oppose it, are the most skeptic, and outspoken the most against it.

Again, the results speak for themselves, that's all that needs to be said. Lives change, careers change, financial situations and lifestyles change, and the results are all that matter.

This thread was started for others to share their coaching experiences with any coach they may have chosen to work with, and the OPs journey himself with working with me. I know what coaches are out there, I know what they know and teach, and I know my content is unlike any others and doesn't exist elsewhere. I know that they teach their limited content of what they've done, and I've yet to meet one that coaches and operates from an industry perspective (because they can't) - plain and simple. I also know that those that have employed these other "coaches," have often been disappointed and felt limited and come to me for their true results.

thomasR can feel however he wants, it really doesn't matter to those sharing here.

The website dig also doesn't bother me other than it shows how people think what they see and find on Google is real, as it appears information. Then they start thinking they know something (they made up in their own mind from assumptions) that they really don't know. Worse yet, as we have seen here before, they start to share that false information with others here by PM or FB groups thinking they know something others don't or they have discovered some secret information. It is hilarious. It is also how a couple of guys we can think back on here have gotten banned over. By the way, if thomasR really would like to know about it PM me as I am happy to explain. Do you really think I'd use that domain that no one could ever spell correcty?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 3, 2019 11:56PM)
“Yet, then one or two or more do decide to share their private experiences here publicly, now that is still not enough. Again, hilarious! “

Who said it wasn’t enough. Danny said “three guys that hire him” and I asked who the third was?

“He has openly said, repeatedly, he has learned and applied more from our coaching than he has from his college degree.”

I don’t doubt that.
Message: Posted by: Gerry Walkowski (Dec 4, 2019 04:56AM)
I will NOT name names, but I personally know a magician who consulted with Mindpro (and it's none of the names listed above) and he was more than pleased with the advice and suggestions he received.

Just saying.

Gerry
Message: Posted by: jonnyboy (Dec 4, 2019 09:14AM)
I am copying most of this text from a post I wrote in Inner Thoughts, as one more person who has been helped immeasurably by Mindpro’s coaching. I have no ax to grind with anyone here, and just want to let you know my experiences with Mindpro. I’ve been a long time MindVention attendee, and was excited to learn that Mindpro would be giving a lecture and having a more intensive seminar as well. While many at MV desire only the traditional lectures that teach tricks and sell the lecturer’s products, I appreciated Danny trying to incorporate more business related lectures into the mix. I felt that these would be helpful to pros and semi-pros looking to increase their business. That year, Mindpro was one of a number whose lectures were more in this area. Those who wanted more trick lectures to learn things to fool their friends and family were probably disappointed that year, and probably gave lukewarm reviews. I don’t think those who wanted more professional advice were disappointed. Mindpro’s Lecture was necessarily truncated in terms of information. You can see from his lengthy posts that he has a lot of information to provide, which he offers freely here. I had never met him before his lecture, but signed up for his seminar following MindVention, along with some other MV attendees. That seminar was excellent, with detailed information and question and answer sessions where we asked direct questions regarding our particular issues, and received helpful suggestions and direction. He provided a well-written notebook that went into greater depth on many important topics regarding the entertainment business, with very practical advice.

When I returned from MV, I followed up with Mindpro and we started a coaching relationship. (I personally know a number of other performers who were coached by Mindpro). Before becoming a full-time mentalist, I was a partner for 28 years at some of the largest law firms in the country. You can’t survive in that environment without a pretty good BS meter. During our coaching sessions, Mindpro consistently gave excellent advice, pointing out things that only years of experience in the entertainment industry would have taught. His wide range of experience was helpful in so many ways, rather than being a detriment. He was able to give me in-depth advice on my sound system, for example. How many business generation coaches can do that? I know he performed in my neck of the woods, as he knows the area and is very conversant with it. No BS there. During our coaching relationship, he helped me on many topics, providing detailed video advice (including second by second editing suggestions), theater purchase advice, promotions, stage presence, routining, mailings, business areas and much more.

I have now been able to procure a weekly show at a 280 seat theater in my area. Mindpro’s coaching has brought me from a neophyte performer to having a weekly show, as well as my booked shows. We’ve stopped the official coaching relationship, but Mindpro has been very kind and generous in continuing to respond to my occasional queries regarding certain aspects, including how to sell tickets to my theater show. Yes, I have a long way to go to get where I want to be, but I’m on a path to where I want to be, and I’m another one of those that Mindpro has helped to define that path.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 4, 2019 09:31AM)
OK I can hear Thomas now. "But there aren't 6 people who posted he helped them".

Like KC said Thomas put the bone down. Or do you want to convince every student he ever had they as would be better without a coach?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 4, 2019 10:17AM)
??? Danny... literally all I said was “who’s the third?” When you said “three people that hired him in this thread”

I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 4, 2019 05:17PM)
Look at Gerry Walkowski's post for the 3rd.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 4, 2019 05:19PM)
Look at Gerry Walkowski's post for the 3rd.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 4, 2019 05:43PM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
Look at Gerry Walkowski's post for the 3rd. [/quote]

Are you serious? Gerry posted that after Danny’s post. And yes there are now more testimonials.... I was never questioning the number of clients mindpro has.
I’m sure he has non-magician clients as well! (Gasp! Is there such a thing!!!!).
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 4, 2019 06:24PM)
What exactly do you want or trying to prove? You are coming off as someone who just likes to argue.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 4, 2019 06:49PM)
[quote]On Dec 4, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
What exactly do you want or trying to prove? You are coming off as someone who just likes to argue. [/quote]

How so? I was responding to your post?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 4, 2019 07:03PM)
EXACTLY
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Dec 6, 2019 08:33AM)
Thank you, Gerry, johnnyboy, and KC, I appreciate the kind words. While I can see why many would choose not to post here (I have never told them not to or asked then to) or share their stories, due to the scrutiny they may receive and the ringer they seem to get put through, it is always so great knowing my work with these people has so positively affected their performing, business, financial situations, and lifestyles.

In reality, there are/have been hundreds who I have coached over the years, yes, including many magicians, mentalists from here on the Café as well as The Magic Castle, America's Got Talent, Fool Us, pro athletes, and of course many in other aspects of performing and entertainment business owner/operators not in the magic world.

I think things like this thread have exposed others to the possibilities and opportunities that are available through coaching and the many benefits of it, as well as seeing a bit from the inside as to what many here have taken away from it, and of course, the fact that all coaching and coaches are not the same.

Other threads here are discussing other programs and courses and how they almost always fall short of expectations or only offer a quite limited context as compared to coaching and both one on one and group training (as johnnyboy mentioned.) As we see here on a weekly basis, performers (of all types) are not that well-versed in the business of entertainment, heck most aren't really entertainers, just performers, so it only stand to reasons that most of their business knowledge and interests are limited if any. Then on top of that, just by nature, there is the addition of ego and the self aspect that is often so preventative in gaining knowledge, education, and experience. That is why coaching itself (not just my coaching) is so beneficial to many of these performers, it can help get then to where they want quicker and easier than attempting to do it n their own, without the missteps, wrong paths, and pitfalls they often experience on their own. Ever try to do something you don't like or are not interested in on your own? The results are sloppy, all over the place and minimal at best. One of the things I hear from so many is how the structure and systems my coaching provides in their business males such a difference - how this alone has made the world of difference in their business. Heck, most don't even operate their performing or understand what a professional truly is as a business or performer when I get them, so that alone along with the initial foundational elements sets most up for success by itself. Then having such personal education and training based on their own location, markets, level of performance, and so many other personal factors usually is unlike anything accessible anywhere else or by any other means.

And while we don't discuss it here much there are other aspects that make a huge difference for non-performing, entertainment-based business owners as well.

I think these stories, other than trying to help thomasR from perhaps gaining a better understanding of coaching, are good to share as others can learn a lot just from how coaching has impacted and affected their lives and business and for many, overall personal fulfillment as well.

I do find it odd how those that share sharing their stories and experiences are being asked to justify their need or decision or reasons for coaching. I think one of the misnomers is the thoughts of "why do you feel you need coaching" and the false belief that they could just learn it on their own, or that the information and content I teach is available elsewhere. While each client's reasons may appear different, they are all really the same and quite similar. We operate in a business and industry where there is no formal structure, education or gatekeeper, so anytime anyone who has little or no experience tries to navigate the unknown by themselves, that is a poor combination. I applaud anyone who seeks training, education, and coaching to assist them in actually and truly learning the business of entertainment. As we see here, there are many that "think" they know and can figure it out on their own, and worse yet turn to other fellow performers who know just as little as them, so it very quickly becomes the uneducated and blind leading the blind, which is a recipe for minimal progress if any, usually more damaging and preventative progress than anything. So, it is good to hear when pride and ego get put aside to allow true growth and progress to occur from a true point of desire to learn, grow, and wanting to know what they don't know, and a commitment to learning actual industry operations. The benefits are long-serving and much more than just financial.



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