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Topic: Jordan Count tricks
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 17, 2017 10:14PM)
Hi people,

I've seen discussions on the Café comparing the effectiveness of the Jordan vs. the Elmsley counts, and of tricks that use the latter. What I haven't seen is discussions of favorite tricks that use Jordan. Maybe I missed it... But -- are there actually tricks that use the Jordan Count?? If so, I'd be interested in hearing about people's favorites -- especially ones that aren't too involved as I'm a beginner. Elmsley is next on my list of sleights to learn, and I know there's a practice routine that alternates the two counts, but it would be great to practice both and learn tricks that use both.

Thanks for your help.
Message: Posted by: NWJay (May 20, 2017 05:41AM)
Interesting question Bob, I'd like to hear the answer too. I've seen tricks that use both, to manoeuvre a card into different positions, but never one that uses just the Jordan. I hope someone more knowledgable comes along to reply!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 20, 2017 07:17AM)
One of my strongest impromptu card effects is from Darwin Ortiz' Cardshark. It requires a Jordan.
Message: Posted by: Boomer (May 22, 2017 03:14PM)
Ahahaha, I did it!!

I was able to refrain from providing the complete reference to magicfish's response.

Thanks @magicfish for providing the opportunity to (im)prove myself (grin).

Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (May 23, 2017 12:24AM)
I can't help you with a trick that uses Jordan counts and only Jordan counts but there is a trick described in one of the Roy Walton books as well as one of the Mentzer books credited to Walton which uses an Elmsley, a Jordan, and a Siva count (Jack Avis). The trick is called "As You Were," and if you practice it until the counts become indisinguishable, you will have a nice effect and you will know three useful counts.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 23, 2017 10:03AM)
Thanks folks. Tricks using Jordan along with other counts would be just fine. Magic fish, do you recall the name of Ortiz,s effect?

I like the idea, foolsnobody, of learning three effects by learning one nice trick.

Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 23, 2017 10:04AM)
Oops, I meant three counts.
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (May 23, 2017 01:42PM)
What I wrote above is incorrect. The third count is the Elmsley-Jordan count, not the Siva count.
Message: Posted by: pepka (May 24, 2017 12:49AM)
Great trick in Focus by Phil Goldstein that uses an Elmsley, Jordan and then a Siva....It's called Overture.
Message: Posted by: B.W. McCarron (Jan 4, 2019 11:15AM)
Michael Kociolek's "The Naturals" effect appears in the Feb. 2018 issue of Genii (see pp. 48-51). It uses a Jordan Count.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 4, 2019 11:22AM)
Thanks, Pepka. I have the book and have heard lots of good things about Overture.

And thanks to you, B. W., for the lead on "The Naturals."
Message: Posted by: Lucas Maillard (Jan 4, 2019 02:31PM)
Rafael Benatar's Illogical Conclusion uses a jordan count.
You can see an extract of the trick in this video : https://youtu.be/2tB8C-qod3A?t=40

Illogical Conclusion: The effect begins with four unseen cards face down on the table and four red cards in Rafael's hands. He openly switches a card, then two cards, and then three cards from one pile to the other, all while the cards in his hands remain completely red. The trick doesn't seem to make sense until he finally shows that the cards on the table are all black.

Message: Posted by: warren (Jan 5, 2019 12:31PM)
Bob sometimes depending on the effect a Jordon count is better and more natural than an Elmsley count for example in Duplicity an underground EC taught at the start/opening but personally I prefer to start with a JC as it's more natural in my opinion, I think the only reason the underground EC is taught is because most magicians are more familiar with the EC rather than the JC.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 5, 2019 03:31PM)
Interesting point, Warren. I like that people who can do several counts can be creative like this.

I have a question -- probably not answerable on this forum. But I wondered whether the duplicity uses a force. Amazing though the trick is, I try to avoid tricks that always force the same card, and therefore can't be shown more than once to the same people (friends and family).
Message: Posted by: warren (Jan 6, 2019 04:44AM)
It's hard to explain as it's sort of a yes and no answer but it's not an effect I would recommend you perform for the same group
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 6, 2019 08:58AM)
Okay -- thanks.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 6, 2019 09:15AM)

I just watched a performance video of Illogical Conclusion. It's very pretty!

Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jan 9, 2019 04:36PM)
I use the Jordan count when I preform the biddle card trick.

Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 9, 2019 06:18PM)
That's very interesting, Kieran. The Biddle trick is high on my list of tricks that I want to learn. If you care to divulge the role that the Jordan count plays in your handling of the tricks, perhaps in a PM, I'd be interested to hear what you do. No obligation, obviously! :)
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jan 10, 2019 12:32PM)
Bob I just had to check, its the biddle count I do not a Jordan count. For some strange reason I always thought it was the Jordan count, sorry about that.

Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 10, 2019 01:44PM)
Ah, okay, that makes sense, Kieran. Thanks for letting me know.

Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 15, 2019 09:18AM)
Kartenkunste- Ortiz
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 15, 2019 09:49AM)
Thanks, magicfish.
Message: Posted by: terrillific (Jan 20, 2019 04:56PM)
Check out some of Aldo Colombini routines. His Italian Salad card trick is awesome.
Message: Posted by: stickmondoo (Jan 27, 2019 12:59PM)
Among the Discards by Simon Aronson uses a Jordan Count. It is also a Very good card trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 30, 2019 09:15AM)
Thanks, terillific and stickmondoo -- lots of riches out there! I'll check these out.
Message: Posted by: baronborrelli (May 15, 2019 12:16PM)
I have been doing card tricks for over thirty years, and I am not quite sure what the Jordan count is (embarrassed to say). Did a quick search in Hugard and Tarbell (paper, not digital) and found nothing. I have been doing Elmsley count for years, and I can do it both hands, forwards backwards. My guess is, I do the Jordan count, but I don’t associate the sleight I do with the name.

If someone can message me and just provide a couple of hints, it would be appreciated. I did check on the Internet but the I saw three or four different false counts described (I suspect incorrectly) as Jordan counts. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 15, 2019 12:23PM)
Hi Baronborelli, do you have the Card College series? Giobbi describes it there. Ian Kendall describes it in his Basic Training (lybrary.com), and I'm pretty sure Daryl does in his Encylopedia of Card Sleights. Giobbi has comprehensive indices in volumes 4 and 5, but I know he covers Jordan in either vol. 2 or vol. 3.

Welcome to the Café! I wish *I'd* been doing card tricks for thirty years! I've been working on magic for three years now, and am still a relative beginner. (My Elmsley count is coming along well, though.)

Message: Posted by: Douglas.M (May 21, 2019 03:30AM)
Another Rumor by Chad Long uses the Jordan (or Ghost) count.
I believe I learned the count from Counts Cuts Moves and Subtlety, by Jerry Mentzer, 1977. The instructions for the Jordan mentions that the completion of a Jordan leaves you set up for an Elmsley count (and vice-versa). I practiced by doing Elmsley-Jordan-Elmsley, etc.

Message: Posted by: tylerb (Jun 5, 2019 03:37PM)
Some of Paul Gordons tricks use the jordan count. Look at his 4 killer packet tricks on his site and his books are packed full of them. Mind Boggler from Pauls book article 52 uses a bunch of jordan counts.
Message: Posted by: kShepher (Jul 18, 2019 01:10PM)
You might want to check out The Royal Acrobats in CC 2. That uses both an Elmsley and a Jordan. It's a great trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 02:24PM)
Thanks, Tyler, Douglas, and K. To the first two of you: for some reason I just got your posts.

Note to K: I'll definitely look that up. My Elmsley count has gotten a lot better, and I'll be putting up a second video for people to critique. I share your love of Giobbi, as you know.

Note to Douglas: Minor correction. I'm 99% sure that Elmsley called his count the "Ghost Count." I don't think the Jordan count is called that. :)

Message: Posted by: CardGuyMike (Jul 18, 2019 02:39PM)
Many packet tricks use Jordan Counts. I just ran across a Cameron Francis trick from Moment's Notice 10 (Precursor) that uses it. Caleb Wiles' Travelers for Jack uses it. And David Regal's Red Streamlined Convertible, an Ace assembly with odd-backed aces, uses it quite a bit.

It's worth noting that the Jordan Count is something of an inverse of the Elmsley Count. That is, the cards that are hidden in an Elmsley Count end up at the back of the packet, in position for a Jordan Count. If you perform a Jordan Count immediately after an Elmsley, you will display the same "four" cards and end up back in position for another Elmsley Count. So you can keep switching between an Elmsley and a Jordan forever, hiding the same card(s) each time. A good way to practice both sleights. It has also saved me a time or two when, after doing an Elmsley, someone has said "wait, show me those cards again." Now what do you do? You do a Jordan Count. And then of course another Elmsley at some point and you're right back in position.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 03:20PM)

I never thought of using the Jordan count if asked to show cards again. Clever. Here's a question: if you follow Elmsley by Jordan, are *all* the cards in the packet in the same order as they were originally?
Message: Posted by: CardGuyMike (Jul 18, 2019 04:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2019, Bob G wrote:

Here's a question: if you follow Elmsley by Jordan, are *all* the cards in the packet in the same order as they were originally? [/quote]

Indeed they are, and I should have clarified that's what I meant by Jordan and Elmsley being inverses. All cards are back in their original order when performing the two counts back-to-back. Try it for yourself.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 06:46PM)
I will! And I'm very happy to hear it.
Message: Posted by: FlightRisk (Nov 4, 2019 08:07AM)
Magic Ronnay's "Sympathetic Cards" from Emerson & West is still one of my favorite packet tricks. Bought it in the 70's or early 80's. Uses EC and JC
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 5, 2019 10:04AM)
Thanks, FlightRisk. Sounds like this might be out of print, but I'll see if I can find it. Would you mind described the effect briefly?

Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 5, 2019 10:08AM)
I found a description -- sounds like a fun trick, though perhaps above my level at the moment. No luck so far finding the marketed trick or a detailed set of instructions.
Message: Posted by: FlightRisk (Nov 7, 2019 11:38AM)
Sad when things disappear and it is hard to find them. I know funinc.com had the rights and was selling the bike version of the cards (the original was with bridge sized cards). The magic gadget site has "Royal Scam" by John Bannon that seems similar. I would love to find the cards myself. Making a deck without splitting and gluing cards might be expensive because you need several of he same suit Aces with all different backs.

I have an original that is still in good shape with the instructions and the cheat sheet card (quick notes on the setup and order of counts). It isn't knuckle busting at all, but to me is memory busting ;) If you learn a JC and EC, which I think are relatively easy slights. A few weeks practice if you have a good teacher. I do both the "at the fingertips" style and the "normal dealing" style. The latter is a bit more difficult I think because you have more fingers involved and more of a coordination between hands to not flash. But once you learn this, I think it stays with you forever. However, the memorization of everything going on in that trick was a bit much for me when I was learning ;) If you don't do it often, I would imagine you have to practice all over again. Not only do you keep doing counts in the correct order, but you have to remember to keep putting the last card on the bottom of the packet, not the top as you normally would in a JC. That's why I think doing it at the fingertips is easier for this trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 7, 2019 03:13PM)
It *is* sad. Magic books and marketed tricks seem to go out of print pretty quickly. I have a solid EC; I'm not sure what my style is called. I ultimately settled on the version Giobbi teaches, so whatever that is -- "dealing," I'd guess. I don't know the JC, but it's on my list of sleights to learn. I said "beyond my level" partly because there was a lot to remember and partly because I don't know JC. So right now I'm focusing on learning tricks that use EC and small packet DL.

I like the magic gadget site a lot. Maybe Rod will be able to tell me how similar Royal Scam is to Sympathetic Cards.