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Topic: Jordan Count tricks
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 17, 2017 10:14PM)
Hi people,


I've seen discussions on the Café comparing the effectiveness of the Jordan vs. the Elmsley counts, and of tricks that use the latter. What I haven't seen is discussions of favorite tricks that use Jordan. Maybe I missed it... But -- are there actually tricks that use the Jordan Count?? If so, I'd be interested in hearing about people's favorites -- especially ones that aren't too involved as I'm a beginner. Elmsley is next on my list of sleights to learn, and I know there's a practice routine that alternates the two counts, but it would be great to practice both and learn tricks that use both.


Thanks for your help.
Message: Posted by: NWJay (May 20, 2017 05:41AM)
Interesting question Bob, I'd like to hear the answer too. I've seen tricks that use both, to manoeuvre a card into different positions, but never one that uses just the Jordan. I hope someone more knowledgable comes along to reply!
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 20, 2017 07:17AM)
One of my strongest impromptu card effects is from Darwin Ortiz' Cardshark. It requires a Jordan.
Message: Posted by: Boomer (May 22, 2017 03:14PM)
Ahahaha, I did it!!

I was able to refrain from providing the complete reference to magicfish's response.

Thanks @magicfish for providing the opportunity to (im)prove myself (grin).


Dave
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (May 23, 2017 12:24AM)
I can't help you with a trick that uses Jordan counts and only Jordan counts but there is a trick described in one of the Roy Walton books as well as one of the Mentzer books credited to Walton which uses an Elmsley, a Jordan, and a Siva count (Jack Avis). The trick is called "As You Were," and if you practice it until the counts become indisinguishable, you will have a nice effect and you will know three useful counts.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 23, 2017 10:03AM)
Thanks folks. Tricks using Jordan along with other counts would be just fine. Magic fish, do you recall the name of Ortiz,s effect?


I like the idea, foolsnobody, of learning three effects by learning one nice trick.



Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 23, 2017 10:04AM)
Oops, I meant three counts.
Message: Posted by: foolsnobody (May 23, 2017 01:42PM)
What I wrote above is incorrect. The third count is the Elmsley-Jordan count, not the Siva count.
Message: Posted by: pepka (May 24, 2017 12:49AM)
Great trick in Focus by Phil Goldstein that uses an Elmsley, Jordan and then a Siva....It's called Overture.
Message: Posted by: B.W. McCarron (Jan 4, 2019 11:15AM)
Michael Kociolek's "The Naturals" effect appears in the Feb. 2018 issue of Genii (see pp. 48-51). It uses a Jordan Count.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 4, 2019 11:22AM)
Thanks, Pepka. I have the book and have heard lots of good things about Overture.



And thanks to you, B. W., for the lead on "The Naturals."
Message: Posted by: Lucas Maillard (Jan 4, 2019 02:31PM)
Rafael Benatar's Illogical Conclusion uses a jordan count.
You can see an extract of the trick in this video : https://youtu.be/2tB8C-qod3A?t=40

Illogical Conclusion: The effect begins with four unseen cards face down on the table and four red cards in Rafael's hands. He openly switches a card, then two cards, and then three cards from one pile to the other, all while the cards in his hands remain completely red. The trick doesn't seem to make sense until he finally shows that the cards on the table are all black.

Lucas.
Message: Posted by: warren (Jan 5, 2019 12:31PM)
Bob sometimes depending on the effect a Jordon count is better and more natural than an Elmsley count for example in Duplicity an underground EC taught at the start/opening but personally I prefer to start with a JC as it's more natural in my opinion, I think the only reason the underground EC is taught is because most magicians are more familiar with the EC rather than the JC.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 5, 2019 03:31PM)
Interesting point, Warren. I like that people who can do several counts can be creative like this.


I have a question -- probably not answerable on this forum. But I wondered whether the duplicity uses a force. Amazing though the trick is, I try to avoid tricks that always force the same card, and therefore can't be shown more than once to the same people (friends and family).
Message: Posted by: warren (Jan 6, 2019 04:44AM)
It's hard to explain as it's sort of a yes and no answer but it's not an effect I would recommend you perform for the same group
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 6, 2019 08:58AM)
Okay -- thanks.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 6, 2019 09:15AM)
Lucas,


I just watched a performance video of Illogical Conclusion. It's very pretty!


Bob
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jan 9, 2019 04:36PM)
I use the Jordan count when I preform the biddle card trick.

Kieran
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 9, 2019 06:18PM)
That's very interesting, Kieran. The Biddle trick is high on my list of tricks that I want to learn. If you care to divulge the role that the Jordan count plays in your handling of the tricks, perhaps in a PM, I'd be interested to hear what you do. No obligation, obviously! :)
Message: Posted by: magicman29 (Jan 10, 2019 12:32PM)
Bob I just had to check, its the biddle count I do not a Jordan count. For some strange reason I always thought it was the Jordan count, sorry about that.

Kieran
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 10, 2019 01:44PM)
Ah, okay, that makes sense, Kieran. Thanks for letting me know.

Bob
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 15, 2019 09:18AM)
Kartenkunste- Ortiz
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 15, 2019 09:49AM)
Thanks, magicfish.
Message: Posted by: terrillific (Jan 20, 2019 04:56PM)
Check out some of Aldo Colombini routines. His Italian Salad card trick is awesome.
Message: Posted by: stickmondoo (Jan 27, 2019 12:59PM)
Among the Discards by Simon Aronson uses a Jordan Count. It is also a Very good card trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 30, 2019 09:15AM)
Thanks, terillific and stickmondoo -- lots of riches out there! I'll check these out.
Message: Posted by: baronborrelli (May 15, 2019 12:16PM)
I have been doing card tricks for over thirty years, and I am not quite sure what the Jordan count is (embarrassed to say). Did a quick search in Hugard and Tarbell (paper, not digital) and found nothing. I have been doing Elmsley count for years, and I can do it both hands, forwards backwards. My guess is, I do the Jordan count, but I don’t associate the sleight I do with the name.

If someone can message me and just provide a couple of hints, it would be appreciated. I did check on the Internet but the I saw three or four different false counts described (I suspect incorrectly) as Jordan counts. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 15, 2019 12:23PM)
Hi Baronborelli, do you have the Card College series? Giobbi describes it there. Ian Kendall describes it in his Basic Training (lybrary.com), and I'm pretty sure Daryl does in his Encylopedia of Card Sleights. Giobbi has comprehensive indices in volumes 4 and 5, but I know he covers Jordan in either vol. 2 or vol. 3.


Welcome to the Café! I wish *I'd* been doing card tricks for thirty years! I've been working on magic for three years now, and am still a relative beginner. (My Elmsley count is coming along well, though.)


Bob
Message: Posted by: Douglas.M (May 21, 2019 03:30AM)
Another Rumor by Chad Long uses the Jordan (or Ghost) count.
I believe I learned the count from Counts Cuts Moves and Subtlety, by Jerry Mentzer, 1977. The instructions for the Jordan mentions that the completion of a Jordan leaves you set up for an Elmsley count (and vice-versa). I practiced by doing Elmsley-Jordan-Elmsley, etc.

Douglas
Message: Posted by: tylerb (Jun 5, 2019 03:37PM)
Some of Paul Gordons tricks use the jordan count. Look at his 4 killer packet tricks on his site and his books are packed full of them. Mind Boggler from Pauls book article 52 uses a bunch of jordan counts.
Message: Posted by: kShepher (Jul 18, 2019 01:10PM)
You might want to check out The Royal Acrobats in CC 2. That uses both an Elmsley and a Jordan. It's a great trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 02:24PM)
Thanks, Tyler, Douglas, and K. To the first two of you: for some reason I just got your posts.


Note to K: I'll definitely look that up. My Elmsley count has gotten a lot better, and I'll be putting up a second video for people to critique. I share your love of Giobbi, as you know.


Note to Douglas: Minor correction. I'm 99% sure that Elmsley called his count the "Ghost Count." I don't think the Jordan count is called that. :)


Bob
Message: Posted by: CardGuyMike (Jul 18, 2019 02:39PM)
Many packet tricks use Jordan Counts. I just ran across a Cameron Francis trick from Moment's Notice 10 (Precursor) that uses it. Caleb Wiles' Travelers for Jack uses it. And David Regal's Red Streamlined Convertible, an Ace assembly with odd-backed aces, uses it quite a bit.

It's worth noting that the Jordan Count is something of an inverse of the Elmsley Count. That is, the cards that are hidden in an Elmsley Count end up at the back of the packet, in position for a Jordan Count. If you perform a Jordan Count immediately after an Elmsley, you will display the same "four" cards and end up back in position for another Elmsley Count. So you can keep switching between an Elmsley and a Jordan forever, hiding the same card(s) each time. A good way to practice both sleights. It has also saved me a time or two when, after doing an Elmsley, someone has said "wait, show me those cards again." Now what do you do? You do a Jordan Count. And then of course another Elmsley at some point and you're right back in position.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 03:20PM)
Mike,


I never thought of using the Jordan count if asked to show cards again. Clever. Here's a question: if you follow Elmsley by Jordan, are *all* the cards in the packet in the same order as they were originally?
Message: Posted by: CardGuyMike (Jul 18, 2019 04:07PM)
[quote]On Jul 18, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Mike,


Here's a question: if you follow Elmsley by Jordan, are *all* the cards in the packet in the same order as they were originally? [/quote]

Indeed they are, and I should have clarified that's what I meant by Jordan and Elmsley being inverses. All cards are back in their original order when performing the two counts back-to-back. Try it for yourself.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jul 18, 2019 06:46PM)
I will! And I'm very happy to hear it.
Message: Posted by: FlightRisk (Nov 4, 2019 08:07AM)
Magic Ronnay's "Sympathetic Cards" from Emerson & West is still one of my favorite packet tricks. Bought it in the 70's or early 80's. Uses EC and JC
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 5, 2019 10:04AM)
Thanks, FlightRisk. Sounds like this might be out of print, but I'll see if I can find it. Would you mind described the effect briefly?


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 5, 2019 10:08AM)
I found a description -- sounds like a fun trick, though perhaps above my level at the moment. No luck so far finding the marketed trick or a detailed set of instructions.
Message: Posted by: FlightRisk (Nov 7, 2019 11:38AM)
Sad when things disappear and it is hard to find them. I know funinc.com had the rights and was selling the bike version of the cards (the original was with bridge sized cards). The magic gadget site has "Royal Scam" by John Bannon that seems similar. I would love to find the cards myself. Making a deck without splitting and gluing cards might be expensive because you need several of he same suit Aces with all different backs.

I have an original that is still in good shape with the instructions and the cheat sheet card (quick notes on the setup and order of counts). It isn't knuckle busting at all, but to me is memory busting ;) If you learn a JC and EC, which I think are relatively easy slights. A few weeks practice if you have a good teacher. I do both the "at the fingertips" style and the "normal dealing" style. The latter is a bit more difficult I think because you have more fingers involved and more of a coordination between hands to not flash. But once you learn this, I think it stays with you forever. However, the memorization of everything going on in that trick was a bit much for me when I was learning ;) If you don't do it often, I would imagine you have to practice all over again. Not only do you keep doing counts in the correct order, but you have to remember to keep putting the last card on the bottom of the packet, not the top as you normally would in a JC. That's why I think doing it at the fingertips is easier for this trick.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 7, 2019 03:13PM)
It *is* sad. Magic books and marketed tricks seem to go out of print pretty quickly. I have a solid EC; I'm not sure what my style is called. I ultimately settled on the version Giobbi teaches, so whatever that is -- "dealing," I'd guess. I don't know the JC, but it's on my list of sleights to learn. I said "beyond my level" partly because there was a lot to remember and partly because I don't know JC. So right now I'm focusing on learning tricks that use EC and small packet DL.


I like the magic gadget site a lot. Maybe Rod will be able to tell me how similar Royal Scam is to Sympathetic Cards.
Message: Posted by: Gennovense (Aug 6, 2020 02:06PM)
The Ultimate Transposition by Paul Gordon uses this count.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 29, 2020 03:43PM)
Note to FlightRisk: You recommended "The Sympathetic Cards." I'd forgotten all about it since it was out of print, but just now, when I was reviewing this thread, I put two and two together: The trick came up on the Magic Gadget Site (on Youtube, I think), and I bought it, not remembering that you'd recommended it! So *that* worked out well!

Thanks,

Bob
Message: Posted by: iFeatherly (Nov 11, 2020 07:49AM)
Lots of “Twisting” effects use the Jordan count in addition to several other counts. There’s one in the Card College series (unsure on which book off the top of my head) where the twisted cards find a selection. Bill Goodwin has an identical handling where the four twisted cards turn face up immediately. Both great tricks for practicing a bunch of counts.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 11, 2020 12:47PM)
Thanks, iFeatherly. I'll see if I can find the one in Card College. It sounds like fun.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 11, 2020 03:10PM)
P. S. I checked the trick -- CC2, The Royal Acrobats. There's three false counts, ATFUS, and all kinds of other goodies. Too advanced for me now, but it's an attractive trick and will eventually be a great chance to try a bunch of sleights that I'll want to learn eventually in any case.
Message: Posted by: iFeatherly (Nov 11, 2020 08:57PM)
[quote]On Nov 11, 2020, Bob G wrote:
P. S. I checked the trick -- CC2, The Royal Acrobats. There's three false counts, ATFUS, and all kinds of other goodies. Too advanced for me now, but it's an attractive trick and will eventually be a great chance to try a bunch of sleights that I'll want to learn eventually in any case. [/quote]


Yup! Just confirmed “The Royal Acrobats” is the one I was thinking of. Bill Goodwin’s is titled “Twisting the kings”
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 12, 2020 12:25PM)
Thanks. :)
Message: Posted by: BlushingCrow (Nov 15, 2020 02:59AM)
Besides Card College, what would be another recommended source to learn the Jordan count? I'm having difficulty locating good info [besides some terrible YouTube videos]
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 15, 2020 10:36AM)
Three books:


1. Jerry Mentzer, Counts, Cuts, Moves, and Subtlety


2. Jon Racherbaumer, Counthasaurus


3. Ian Baxter, Basic Training (from Lybrary.com) Baxter also teaches the count on a video available on his website or Lybrary, I forget which.


Good luck, and welcome to the Café!


Bob
Message: Posted by: cigmas (Nov 15, 2020 07:19PM)
Hi Bob

Book Number 3, Basic Training, is by Ian Kendall
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 15, 2020 07:55PM)
Oops! Thanks, cigmas. I even looked it up, saw "Kendall," and wrote "Baxtor" anyway. Glad you corrected me.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Betrayal Mix (Nov 20, 2020 10:31PM)
Is there a good video/DVD source for learning the Jordan count? I'm looking at the Elmsley Count project by BBM but I haven't turned up any specific reviews that comment on their Jordan work..
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 21, 2020 11:08AM)
The Elmsley Count project covers the Jordan Count well but briefly. It should be enough if you already know the Elmsley Count. (And the disk covers the latter in *lots* of detail.)
Message: Posted by: Betrayal Mix (Nov 21, 2020 06:39PM)
See, my issue is I *don't* know the Elmsley count, but my idea was I would try to learn it AND the Jordan so that I could practice one after the other - but perhaps this is far too ambitious, and I should simplify.. either way, the Elmsley Count project is a likely starting point .. ... hopefully not a finishing point as well!!
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 22, 2020 10:14AM)
Take what I say with a grain of salt, Betrayal Mix, because I'm by no means advanced in magic. But my advice would be to start with the Elmsley Count because so many packet tricks use it. If you're a beginner in card magic and prefer video, you might consider buying the whole Essential Card Magic Toolbox (mostly by Liam Montier), an eight DVD set that includes the two Elmsley Count disks (one goes into EC technique in great detail, and the other teaches nice tricks that use the count.) Another of the disks includes "self-working" tricks -- tricks that use little sleight of hand. I'm not sure the EC is the best sleight to start with, though, if you don't have much card experience; maybe others can chip in on this.


I'm assuming that you're just beginning -- if I'm wrong just ignore me! -- and there's zillions of threads in the New to Magic forum on the Café that you'd find interesting. People vary in their talents and speeds of learning. I started about five years ago and am finally just getting a decent double lift and Elmsley Count. I'm probably way at the slow end of the spectrum. But I just find magic, and sleight of hand in particular, so fascinating that I enjoy working on the sleights and don't mind (much) taking months and years to learn a sleight. So I'd say, if you enjoy working on this stuff, just keep at it and it will come, but it may take quite a while. And if you find yourself not enjoying it, that's okay -- life is full of lots of interesting things besides magic. :)



Hope that helps and didn't miss the target.


Best of luck,


Bob
Message: Posted by: Betrayal Mix (Nov 23, 2020 03:47AM)
Thanks for the kind and respectful words Bob - especially being nervous about misjudging me, but you are S P O T on the money, I'm an absolute beginning magic user - and I relish quality advice like this!!

I know myself well enough to know I need to focus on one or two things and doing them well rather then try and learn every single trick at once

the one trick I saw that made me know I had to learn magic was the Chicago Surprise Opener [also called the Red Hot Mama I think] and I absolutely wanted to learn it but the d***** l**t totally fried me so I decided to regroup and simplify - baby steps, baby steps, as they say... but I think you are right, focus on the Elmsley and get it down pat, then when I've mastered that, maybe I'll be brave enough to try a double lift!
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 23, 2020 10:33AM)
It's tempting to want to learn everything at once! There's so much great stuff out there... Chicago Opener/Red Hot Mama was one of the tricks that I early on thought, "Oh, I just *have* to learn this!" Here I am, five years later, close to being able to perform it. (Again, that doesn't mean that *you'll* take that long.) A wise piece of advice that many people here have given me is: decide which trick you want to learn next, and learn the sleights needed for the trick. (Of course, the sleights need to be at a level appropriate to *your* level.) That helps focus your learning.


By the way, Chicago Surprise is a different trick -- it's Whit "Pop" Haydn's variation on Chicago Opener. It's brilliant, and you can find lots of youtube videos of him performing it and other effects. He's created a very funny character that he assumes when performing and he's a wonderful actor. Someday I may be advanced enough to learn Chicago Surprise.


Honestly, I don't know which is easier to learn for beginners, Elmsley or DL. Maybe neither is the best to start with. You might want to look at The Card Magic of Nick Trost, available as an ebook -- he's famous for inventing tricks that are effective yet use few sleights, and generally easier ones. There's also a four (?) - disk set by Gerry Griffin. I forget its name, but he does a nice job of starting from the beginning and moving gradually to more complicated material. Harry Lorayne's The Magic Book is good in that way, too. And the five volume Card-College by Roberto Giobbi is unparalleled in its scope and clarity. Ian Kendall's Basic Training (Lybrary.com) is unusual, though not unique, in the way he breaks sleights down into small steps and gives you drills for each step to do before you move to the next step. He starts with the Elmsley Count!


One last thought: Winston Churchill adopted painting as a hobby during a period when he was not able to be involved in politics. A friend saw him tentatively dabbing paint on his canvas, and she said, No, no, you have to just dive in! She dipped the brush in one of the paints and splashed it on the canvas with a devil-may-care attitude. I think the same is true of all human activities -- you have to be willing to just try stuff and make a fool of yourself. I'm lucky in that I don't mind messing up sleights when I'm by myself, but it's perfectly understandable that some people might feel that way. What gets to me is performing. I get very nervous. Well, so, that's life: you capitalize on your strengths and shore up your weaknesses.


-- Sorry if that sounded pompous. My point was simply to keep at it; the only way to progress is to just keep trying and trying and messing up and learning (sometimes) from the messing up.



Bob
Message: Posted by: Betrayal Mix (Nov 23, 2020 05:01PM)
Not pompous at all Bob, and thanks again for being both generous with your time and experience - I had not heard of a few of these sources but I'm keen to get cracking! I'm going to have a peek at Trost and Griffin, methinks!
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 23, 2020 06:39PM)
My pleasure, Betrayal Mix. Have fun!


Bob
Message: Posted by: rjthomp (Feb 18, 2021 11:48AM)
Many tricks that use a Jordan could be done with a Elmsley, in which you put the last card on the bottom instead of the top to preserve the desired order. John Bannon, for example, seems to avoid Jordans religiously, even if tricks like twisted sister or duplicity seem like they would naturally use a Jordan... For beginners, its much better to start with an Elmsley rather than a double lift. Double lifts are generally over used and abused by many magicians. An Elmsley count, if performed casually (you're not trying to show the spectators anything, just casually going through the packet), will never be suspected. A good way to get experience doing these slights in front of an audience is to actually use them in tricks where they AREN'T needed. So if you have a packet of 4 face down red backed cards, say, just go ahead and give them an Elmsley. This can be done with a lot of other slights as well (so throw in a pass before you hand out a deck for a shuffle; use a classic force even when you don't need to know the card selected etc.). Besides making you more comfortable using these slights, there's an added bonus of really confusing any magicians in the audience...
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 18, 2021 03:50PM)
I started this thread, but so long ago that I don't remember whether anyone brought up this trick: Illogical Conclusion, by Roy Walton. I'm learning it now. What a delight it is! It uses Elmsleys and a Jordan, and one other little move.


Note to rjthomp: I wasn't aware that the Elmsley (or "Ghost" -- what a great name!) can sometimes stand in for the Jordan. I won't think about whether that's possible in Walton's trick, because I'm finally learning the Jordan, and it's just so cool...


Bob
Message: Posted by: martyjacobs (Feb 19, 2021 11:44AM)
Personally, I don't like performing a straight Ghost Count followed by an Underground Ghost Count (the last card goes on the bottom). It looks inconsistent. I'd rather do a Jordan Count. When done correctly, it is imperceptible from a Ghost Count. However, you need to put the practice in to make it smooth and train your brain [i]not[/i] to perform a Ghost Count.

And I've never understood why John Bannon doesn't use a Jordan Count in his trick Twisted Sisters. The opening display looks better if you do.

Marty
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 19, 2021 12:29PM)
I agree with you Marty, and I'm surprised at how many tricks use the GC but with the last card placed at the bottom of the packet. So here's a question for you (or whoever cares to answer). If the instructions for a trick direct you to do an EC, but place the last card on the bottom, is there always a way to replace the move just described with a JC?


I just did an experiment to see what effect each of the three procedures has on the final order of the cards. Each time, I started with the all four cards face down, in the order A 2 3 4 from the top.


a. After doing GC the new order is: A 4 2 3.


b. After doing JC the new order is: A 3 4 2.


c. After doing the GC but with last card placed on bottom, the new order is: 4 2 3 A.


So options (b) and (c) are not equivalent. Clearly there's a missing piece that I need to know about.


Thanks,


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 19, 2021 12:32PM)
P. S. On rereading, I picked up your phrase, "a straight Ghost Count followed by an Underground Ghost Count." So maybe you're saying that Ghost Count followed by Underground Ghost Count is equivalent to a single Jordan count. Way past lunch time here, so I'm going to eat before I try this.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 19, 2021 01:56PM)
Just tried the experiment. If you do a straight GC followed by an UGC, the result is 3 4 2 A. This is not the same order that results from a single JC ((b) in previous post). It's always possible I made a mistake, but I checked and double-checked. So I'm still not following what you're saying, rjthomp and Marty.
Message: Posted by: Francois Lagrange (Feb 19, 2021 02:14PM)
I think your problem stems from thinking that the order of the 3 other cards is relevant, when in fact it might not be the case.

Here’s a trivial example: imagine you have 3 red-backed and one blue-backed cards. The BB is in 3rd position from the top and you perform an EC.

If you wanted to perform a second count and still hide the BB card, you could either perform a JC or, by performing an underground EC on the first count, segue with another EC.

If the order of the 3 other cards is relevant, then it might not be possible to replace one handling (EC + JC) with the other (UEC + EC).
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 19, 2021 05:02PM)
Ah, okay, I see. Thanks for the nice example.

Bob
Message: Posted by: martyjacobs (Mar 5, 2021 06:50AM)
Hi Bob, if the exact sequence is important a GC followed by an UGC is not equivalent to a JC. However, if you are performing something like Dai Vernon's "Twisting the Aces", then I'd rather do a GC followed by a JC because the order (at that stage of the trick) is not important.

Interestingly, I often use false counts to re-order cards in a small packet, either to set me up to perform a trick (without having to memorise the specific setup needed) or to reset the packet before placing it in my pocket. Often, I find that an UGC is the easiest and quickest way to reset.

Marty
Message: Posted by: Francois Lagrange (Mar 5, 2021 07:57AM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2021, martyjacobs wrote:

Interestingly, I often use false counts to re-order cards in a small packet, either to set me up to perform a trick (without having to memorise the specific setup needed) or to reset the packet before placing it in my pocket. Often, I find that an UGC is the easiest and quickest way to reset.

Marty [/quote]

I don’t get that bit.

An EC + JC will reset the order to what it was before starting the EC. I don’t understand how an UEC will work here. Can you elaborate?

And, I'm curious, why do you keep calling Elmsley’s count “Ghost Count”? Ghost Count (Elmlsey’s original name) has been universally superseded with “Elmsley Count” in modern literature.

Genuine question.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Mar 5, 2021 09:36AM)
Thanks, Marty. In line with Francois' question, I'd be curious to hear an example or two of how you use the UGC to reset, in a PM, perhaps, if it would be revealing too much. I know the GC and am on my way to mastering the JC, so my ability to string together packet trick routines should soon go up a notch. It's amazing how many quite different things these counts can accomplish.


Francois, I can't speak to Marty's reasons, but I, too, prefer "Ghost Count." I find it a delightfully picturesque name. I usually use "Elmsley Count" because it's more likely that people will know what I mean, and I do like to honor the move's creator, but it's a shame that people don't use GC much anymore. FWIW
Message: Posted by: poolside (May 12, 2021 03:23PM)
[quote]On Nov 23, 2020, Betrayal Mix wrote:
Thanks for the kind and respectful words Bob - especially being nervous about misjudging me, but you are S P O T on the money, I'm an absolute beginning magic user - and I relish quality advice like this!!

I know myself well enough to know I need to focus on one or two things and doing them well rather then try and learn every single trick at once

the one trick I saw that made me know I had to learn magic was the Chicago Surprise Opener [also called the Red Hot Mama I think] and I absolutely wanted to learn it but the d***** l**t totally fried me so I decided to regroup and simplify - baby steps, baby steps, as they say... but I think you are right, focus on the Elmsley and get it down pat, then when I've mastered that, maybe I'll be brave enough to try a double lift! [/quote]

Betrayal Mix - A Chicago Opener DL is easy if you get a roughing stick and use it on the middle section of the face of your Chicago Opener odd card. Pressing on the middle of the back of the odd card will give you an extremely easy DL and the two cards separate easily when you slide them at the top or bottom. Best of all, your magician friends will be impressed with your perfect DL!
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 12, 2021 04:46PM)
Hi Poolside,

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you'd have to apply the roughing stick to both the face of the odd card and the back of the chosen card -- otherwise the cards won't stick. One solution would be to f**ce the selection.

Alternatively, Betrayal Mix could look at Christian Schenk's ("Card-Shark's") website. He sells Science Friction, which lots of people rave about. It requires only one card to be treated.

Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 12, 2021 04:48PM)
Another trick that I really like is a version of O&W by J. K. Hartman, "Fixit Mixer." It uses both Elmsley and Jordan counts, so great for practicing both. (God, E and J were geniuses!) Aldo Colombini teaches it on his Oil Water 2, available from Chris Wasshumber's Lybrary.com.
Message: Posted by: Francois Lagrange (May 13, 2021 03:11AM)
For CO, I apply zig 2-way glue pen on the face of the odd card. Works a treat and dirt cheap.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 13, 2021 08:52AM)
Interesting! I never heard of a 2-way glue pen. Must look into this.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (May 13, 2021 08:53AM)
A couple of messages ago, I meant Wasshuber. The "m" crept in on its own; I had nothing to do with it. :)