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Topic: Incredible Coinmagic - America’s Got Talent 2017
Message: Posted by: Kjellstrom (May 26, 2017 11:29AM)
Supernice coinmagic!

[youtube]gniaKsW8HPA[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 26, 2017 01:42PM)
Amazing!

I've been saying for years, this is what the progression of magic is all about. It starts with the simplicity of Matrix, and then through sheer creativity and awesome ability, it becomes something out of this world, something so much more than it ever was. This is yet another wonderful example. Just awesome!
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (May 26, 2017 01:50PM)
Ah, he learned all that from me. :D

That looked a little too magical. I'm jealous
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 26, 2017 03:11PM)
Wow! That is just great. Quite simply ... magical.
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (May 26, 2017 05:42PM)
Is this for real? Come on!, I am now a true believer, Magic exists...
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (May 26, 2017 05:52PM)
I think this is awesome, but I see no actual sleight of hand at play here; only when the cards vanish though.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 26, 2017 06:22PM)
That's just the beauty of it. Sleights or no sleights, it's the end result that counts. And in this case, it looks like real magic!
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (May 26, 2017 06:44PM)
Yeah. Effect is everything!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 26, 2017 08:12PM)
Stunning and artistic.

Looks great. Maybe too perfect for my sensibilities but I liked the routine it sure went over well with the judges and audience as magical. Bravo!
Message: Posted by: Mobius303 (May 26, 2017 10:12PM)
Very magical in execution and timing.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 26, 2017 11:29PM)
Like it or not, we are in an intensely visual age. magic that is INTENSELY visual matches the spirit of this age, and
is what is almost required for a magic trick to be perceived as magical. so kudos to you, Will!!!
Message: Posted by: harris (May 27, 2017 01:04PM)
In the early 80's a man from France did a comedy matrix at a Desert Seminar in Las Vegas.
He also did a rocks over the head bit. I can't remember his name.
That performance memory plus a nod to Del Ray- through this magician brought the AGT crowd to its feet and a smile to my face.
Effect
Effect
Effect
&
Simplicity of A B A format
Rose Petals to Coin to Rose Petals
&
Connection to our audiences make priceless connections.


Harris
Still too old to know it all
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (May 27, 2017 02:17PM)
All I can say to that routine is HOLEY MOLEY (insert another word). I don't care how it was done. That was just like what magic should look like. Every time
Message: Posted by: tyler_rabbit (May 27, 2017 04:23PM)
Wow! Just wow!
Message: Posted by: Gerald Deutsch (May 27, 2017 08:17PM)
Michael Rubinstein I'm proud of you.
Message: Posted by: puggo (May 28, 2017 03:41AM)
I thought the effect was great, although hard to follow on from in terms of instant visuals if he progresses. I have no issues with the gaffed/no sleight of hand nature of it either, as when you see the work that went into Tommy Wonder's table etc., is this not just a high tech update?

I do have concern that 'real world magic' may struggle to get TV exposure in the future, but then again for real people, not such an issue. For a few years, I was regularly asked if I could put a phone in a bottle (Dynamo), but I had a few lines and effects which meant that it was never a problem.

I generally take the view that if people get interested in magic and it gets exposure, then that's a good thing.
Charlie
Message: Posted by: funsway (May 28, 2017 04:54AM)
This may dredge up discussions of the "too perfect theory" with all of its ramifications.

When the observers thinks "must be video trick" or "pre-shot streaming video" or "special table" - whatever, the following question mist be "where is the magic?"

Yes, this is "magical" by modern definition, but I question that it triggers the same internal responses in the mind of the observer as a live performance without special props.

Not judging here. I might use "run-rabbit-run" with kids (self working prop), but don't feel it is 'magic" in the same way as having two coins change places in spectator's hands.

What is the performer trying to accomplish? What will the observer remember and relate to others?

If a friend asks for a demonstration of magic, I will not refer them to this video. If they ask, "Can astonishment be entertaining?" I might.
Message: Posted by: tyler_rabbit (May 28, 2017 06:23AM)
True story: earlier this evening I was at the Castle and a few of us were having this almost exact same discussion regarding that routine; the ramifications for the future of magic and audience expectations Etc.. a couple hours later I was doing some coin magic for some nice folks and they asked, almost jokingly, if I could do that trick the guy did on AGT. I did Dean Tonight Show Matrix and Dean's assembly with backfire (unpublished) and they said something along the lines of "wow it's one thing to see it on TV but when you see it in real life right under your face it's so amazing!" We've all heard people tell us this before and I think we will all continue to..

Regarding methodology I will just say the best way I've found to figure out almost any trick is to look for the superfluous caveats.. even if it doesn't use sleight of hand moves in the way that we normally think of them if involves a lot of timing, coordination, Rhythm, direction, and skill; so in the long run it's kind of the same thing.. Methodology aside that was a totally amazing routine!! So fun!!
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (May 28, 2017 08:52AM)
Poof, I am not sure I agree with your post, this is one of the most entertaining pieces of magic I have seen. Lot of people watched in person and many more on TV saw a miracle happened, what could be wrong with that. Almost all Coppefield effects and most of P&T are heavily gimmicked. Will you have the same question with their approach on where the magic is going? At the end is the intention of any art to entertain/impress/dazzle people?
Also adding the video in slow motion is showing to everybody how the trick works, not cool with the artist, It should be removed.

I think that Jonathan post, that the trick is too perfect for his taste could brought the point home in a better way.

Also Tyler_rabbit post above shows something interesting, thanks to the AGT, he was able to show a similar trick to a group of people and for those people that watch it Tyler was as good (or better) as Will, really a nice moment for Tyler. The method used is only a magician discussion that disregard the actual moment of magic that happens in the eyes of the spectator.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (May 28, 2017 11:22AM)
Dean Dill's Tonight Show Matrix is published in book and on a Reel Magic video.

However the kid did that coin work, it looked great
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 28, 2017 01:25PM)
Thanks pablonius,
Also liked the production design on display. Trellis, vine, picture frame, plain cards, flower petals... :)

Let's not discuss methods on this thread, okay? Start a topic on secret sessions for visual coin trick methods and we can compare notes if you like.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 28, 2017 01:36PM)
[quote]On May 28, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:

Let's not discuss methods on this thread, okay? Start a topic on secret sessions for visual coin trick methods and we can compare notes if you like. [/quote]

I agree, Jonathan.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (May 28, 2017 03:09PM)
As far as removing the post, I have no problem if the mods deem it to be exposure. As I stated, that was/is not my intention, it is just the 2nd or 3rd video that was in the que, on YouTube, when I saw the "Original Video" and therefore anyone watching the original video would easily access it.

I agree that "The Too Perfect Theory" is probably what I mean. I just didn't get the wording popping into my head at the time. I also agree with Tyler_Rabbit about getting people started in a conversation and blowing them away with something similar. That is exactly what I did as a full time table hopper during the "Masked Magician" TV series and the first couple David Blaine specials (and it made me look better).

I also stated that I know there are other effects heavily gaffed, in my mind "this particular instance "feels different" somehow". Maybe because most are praising the performance instead of attacking it (as was the case so many times with Blaine, Angel and Dynamo). So I ask "Are we evolving as a community and openly accepting this now"? Which is what I meant by "Where are we heading as a community"?

I liked the aesthetics of the props, the creativity behind the device and the performance in general. I am just questioning the "bigger picture" from all perspectives. We have magi who have been around since books or a mentor were the only way to join the "secret club", we have the video / DVD generation and we are getting more and more members who started out by watching YouTube exposure videos. Opinions will be mixed I'm sure.
Message: Posted by: tyler_rabbit (May 28, 2017 03:31PM)
[quote]On May 28, 2017, fonda57 wrote:
Dean Dill's Tonight Show Matrix is published in book and on a Reel Magic video [/quote] its also on Extreme Dean Vol 2.. however his backfire assembly is unpublished because he didn't like it so he abandoned back in the 90s..
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 28, 2017 03:51PM)
Thanks to Facebook live streaming and similar it's more a matter of available bandwidth than "if". Video over WiFi is now a thing. Going forward with the live video view, instead of a cameraman get a volunteer to stream their view. 😁 so maybe you can misdirect a camera after all?
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (May 28, 2017 04:20PM)
On a different point, one of the drawbacks that I see in this particular trick, is that it is a close up trick presented in a big stage, so it became a Stage act and here is where I think the only weakness happened, Will Tsai performs as a close up magician, you only see his face at the beginning and at the end everything else is a hands view, while I understand it is the only way to show this trick to a larger audience the challenge for him will be this gap between close up and Stage presentation.

I use to watch Lavand in a small theater in a beach town in Argentina, it was small but larger enough that a camera should be used for the people behind the first rows, once I got late and the only available seats were in the back, I watched half the show in the overhead screen and left at the middle of his performance, it was not the same as watching it close up.
Message: Posted by: Poof-Daddy (May 28, 2017 05:39PM)
[quote]On May 28, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Thanks to Facebook live streaming and similar it's more a matter of available bandwidth than "if". Video over WiFi is now a thing. Going forward with the live video view, instead of a cameraman get a volunteer to stream their view. 😁 so maybe you can misdirect a camera after all? [/quote]

That would have been a fantastic use for "Google Glass" if it had come to market on a mass scale. The camera in the glasses would more likely follow the eyes of the user allowing for misdirection rather than the never blinking "eye in the sky".
Message: Posted by: GAMJoker (May 30, 2017 12:50PM)
Not to be rude or racist, but for me it's not that easy to differentiate taiwanese people... Is this actually Will Tsai from Sansminds or is it just a coincidence that there is another magician with the same name?

Anyways... very beautiful act. Very visual, even tho I think the part with the cards and the last part with the transformation would be enough. To teleport the coins just without any cover, takes away so many possibilities and direct people in the way it's probably done. The version with the cards was just 100% clean and noone could tell what method he used for it.
Message: Posted by: GAMJoker (May 30, 2017 05:01PM)
Ok... :D I just received a newsletter e-mail where my question was answered :P

"We've got some great news. Our founder, Will Tsai has been killing the Internet lately with his viral video that leaked a few days ago. It's been sweeping every online platform that we know of and we couldn't be more proud of him. "
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 30, 2017 06:59PM)
[quote]On May 30, 2017, GAMJoker wrote:
...Anyways... very beautiful act. Very visual, even tho I think the part with the cards and the last part with the transformation would be enough. To teleport the coins just without any cover, takes away so many possibilities and direct people in the way it's probably done. The version with the cards was just 100% clean and noone could tell what method he used for it. [/quote]

Agreed!...And y'know, I hear all the questions as to when the coins move without cover, but I think that this works because of how he sets it up, with the Matrix beginning. Most here know the workings of Matrix, and so for them that part can be done by any number of workers. The following parts are where Will Tsai soars with the effect and slips in the impossible stuff to seal the deal for all of us that know everything. :D By that time, the magic of it all is completely believable, and magnificently done, at that. Look, this is not your favorite version of Gadabout Coins, 3-Fly, or Coins Through Table, this is more something that might win you a title at FISM.

Again, I thought it was a great presentation, so did the judges, and most importantly, so did the larger audience. The spectators are what's most important, and thank God for that. :)
Message: Posted by: JoeHohman (May 31, 2017 12:34PM)
You could see that Howie, Simon, and Heidi were ALREADY enthralled when Will was doing the "traditional" matrix stuff early on, well before he got to the stunning stuff at the end.
Message: Posted by: Hare (Jun 6, 2017 12:57PM)
I share funsway's position on this one.

I think that this sort of technological gimmickry is much too easy to overuse- in fact, that here, in it's first presentation ever, it's already relied on too heavily and repeated much too often like some kind of freaky science experiment.

It's astounding the first time you see it. After that, each time it is used, it will tend to become less and less impressive, and more and more obvious to any viewer that it's a technical puzzle, like special effects in a movie, more than "magic".

It is the sort of thing that has to be handled with extreme prudence- once as the climax of a routine maybe.

It's bound to be the case that once this effect becomes widespread, that coins, cards, plates and anything not tied down and flat will be teleported across stages until were all sick of seeing it- which, won't take long. The easier an effect like this is to make happen, the less skill it takes to have it function, the more people tend to abuse it.

It will be featured to death in a hurry.

The danger with "perfect" mechanical magic like this is in how quickly it becomes commonplace when it's easy- which just destroys the magic of actual sleight of hand which it resembles but appears to be "superior" to.

I don't like it. I've never liked it when "self working" tricks mimic sleight of hand and are overused, because, in my opinion, these sorts of things ought to be treated as tools to add to a magician's repertoire, hidden- rather than be a crutch the magician relies on over and over again.

This rather takes that to extremes, in my view.

I realize it's not a clear cut issue, and that part of my response is emotional, coming from a point of being a fairly straight-up coin worker. This sort of thing sort of makes all the hand work pointless.

So, for a variety of reasons, I find this not to my liking at all.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jun 6, 2017 04:21PM)
Y'know, I gotta tellya, I find the posts by funsway and Hare quite interesting and beneficial to this string. Their posts here dig deeper as to magical analysis and should be considered seriously.

I actually only watched the video one time, and in that viewing I saw magic, as I'm sure all the people on that show saw. So in that, I believe/I hope it will mostly remains magic to them.

As for most of us here, that know something of all this stuff, I guess we reserve the right to whatever scrutiny we use. I have seen several FISM presentations that fit this same bill but also won the magician the grand award. I am reminded of the great coin trick (by a wonderful magician) where all the coins appear on a mat from seemingly nowhere, an effect that everyone loves and applauds...I see real similarity here but perhaps drawing different opinions. Also, I can remember folks not particularly thinking that what Mickey Silver dose is particularly magical, and absolutely all of it is top-flite SOH, not to mention it looks magical as heck to me and I know exactly what he's doing. I know I am perhaps conflating a lot of things a bit, but this is what I think about as to all that is being discussed here.

Good talk!
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Jun 6, 2017 08:41PM)
I've hesitated to post here.

While I appreciate the performance for what it is, I think magic needs to look like something other than trick photography. On first viewing it looked like ill-timed video editing to me. Aren't we after something else, generally?

In my opinion, the openness of a working of method shoots the effect in the foot.

We can see that Will is adept at sleight of hand. But going for the special effect diminishes this routine to a gimmick, I think, and in my opinion, that's anticlimactic.

I'd like to hear more from laymen about it, though.

I may disagree with the construction of this routine, but Will is an artist and l'd like to extend to him
best wishes- obviously a bright and talented guy, with a message I certainly do appreciate.
Message: Posted by: pabloinus (Jun 7, 2017 12:30PM)
Laurie, I am more a spectator than a magician, for what it worth, even as I understood that the routine was based on gimmicked props, it was amazing, I had the same reaction that the people watching in the studio, if Magic exist this is how it would look, coins moving around with a wave of the hand, cards vanishing in clear air and coins transforming in petals, the only missing thing was an Unicorn.

Same would happened when Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear or when he is cut in two with a huge electric Saw, same experience.

If you want to do magic for magician, maybe you would use more sleight of hands but for lay people in Television this was perfect. Nobody cared how he did it.

Pablo
Message: Posted by: mh1001 (Jun 7, 2017 04:41PM)
I do not agree that this does not require any skill at all. As I see it, that obviously requires perfect timing and coordination. Anyway, for other opinions on this subject, see here :
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=642599&forum=218&start=60
Message: Posted by: tyler_rabbit (Jun 7, 2017 06:14PM)
For me, Café member Doug Trouten summed it up perfectly in that thread "I don't think Will's goal was to impress those 'in the know' with advanced sleight of hand. His goal was to stun the judges and audience. Mission accomplished."

Regardless, he impressed the heck out of this guy in the know. Fantastic routine.
Message: Posted by: JCISBACK (Jun 11, 2017 10:25PM)
He performed a brilliant routine. The way real magic with coins should look like. Enough said.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 17, 2017 01:35PM)
When's his next appearance on the show?
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Jun 17, 2017 05:02PM)
Here's some actual sleight of hand, and I believe, just as astonishing without a special table. Not as long of a routine of course.

https://youtu.be/HXZNHL8EMfg
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jun 17, 2017 08:55PM)
[quote]On Jun 17, 2017, Rick Holcombe wrote:
Here's some actual sleight of hand, and I believe, just as astonishing without a special table. Not as long of a routine of course.

https://youtu.be/HXZNHL8EMfg [/quote]

Quite amazing alright...It reminds me of some absolutely supernatural matrix or chink-a-chink type takes that Mano The Magnificent once showed me a while back. Great stuff! 😄
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Jun 17, 2017 09:16PM)
Also enjoy this other performance from the same gentleman from over 3 years ago.very creative stuff.

https://youtu.be/BXCf0ojUMZ4
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Jun 22, 2017 05:43PM)
A tip of the hat to Tango's Viesable Mystery.