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Topic: Guru by Bill Montana
Message: Posted by: RobertMarsi (Oct 1, 2017 07:15AM)
Bill Montana has just released a dynamic new DVD video called Guru. It can only be found at the new website for magicians and mentalists skywardmagic.com

In this work, Bill Montana gives over an hour of video instruction for those who wish to take their mentalism into the metaphysical market. You will learn bio-mechanical effects, get insights into how to present your material, and otherwise get a crash-course in the art of becoming a Guru.

Effects taught:
Grow Larger
Psychokinetic plastic
Shiva and the Crystal
Ancient Vs Modern
Pyramid Power Variation
Pyramid Props
Paper Pyramid
Carbon and a Magnet
David Hoy Back of the Room
Fortune Telling
Psychic Outs
Board of Ramalan
Die of Ramanan
Tarot Marker
And Much More!

If you are interested, you can find this DVD at this link:

http://skywardmagic.com/shop/categories/mentalism/metaphysical/guru/
Message: Posted by: David Numen (Oct 1, 2017 09:16AM)
One hopes it's somewhat less of a rambling execrable mess than his Penguin lecture.
Message: Posted by: MagicBrent (Oct 1, 2017 07:24PM)
I'd like to see a trailer but I guess it's metaphysical and propless?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 04:18AM)
When I work in any semblance of a metaphysical situation, I work clean. Just actual intuition.

If I am using trickery, it must always be clear that I am entertainer.

I have no idea what is in this DVD, so don't get me wrong - this could well just be marketing hype - but being a guru (which means spiritual teacher) is something that you can't (or at least shouldn't) trick your way into.
And if you did use deception in order to get honestly seeking people to think that you are something that you are not, I think it's different than presenting mentalism as entertainment. Different as in bad.
Message: Posted by: Gumar Oz DuBar (Oct 2, 2017 12:52PM)
This is a great DVD for anyone looking to learn how to work in the metaphysical market!

Packed with practical information and a great source to those who already work in this market but want to add things they're sure not to find anywhere else.

Bill Montana has some great thinking and if you want to learn ways of working in the metaphysical market, then this crash course is something you'd be very interested in and something that would be very beneficial to you.

If you do readings or metaphysical work, Bill's thinking and material is invaluable.

Highly recommended from someone that actually uses a great deal of this particular material and makes money with it.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 2, 2017 02:17PM)
Anyone who claims to be doing it "for real", and yet uses trick methodology, is either deliberately deluding themselves or deliberately exploiting others. Not a good look, either way.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 03:06PM)
So then - does this have 'methods' on it?

Gumar has said in another thread that he doesn't use trickery at all....
Message: Posted by: Gumar Oz DuBar (Oct 2, 2017 03:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
So then - does this have 'methods' on it?

Gumar has said in another thread that he doesn't use trickery at all.... [/quote]

I never said that I don't use trickery, if you read what I wrote, I said trickery isn't required. I also said, in so many words, that it is usually over-the-top, so it isn't needed.

I don't use trickery, because I don't need to, but I never said that I don't, so even though that's true, don't put words in my mouth. Also, avoid looking a fool and actually read what I write when addressing me to avoid confusion.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 2, 2017 04:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote:
I don't use trickery, because I don't need to, but I never said that I don't, so even though that's true, don't put words in my mouth. [/quote]

I'm not quite sure I've followed that. Are you now confirming that you don't use trickery?
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 2, 2017 04:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 1, 2017, RobertMarsi wrote:
Bill Montana has just released a dynamic new DVD video called Guru. It can only be found at the new website for magicians and mentalists skywardmagic.com

In this work, Bill Montana gives over an hour of video instruction for those who wish to take their mentalism into the metaphysical market. You will learn bio-mechanical effects, get insights into how to present your material, and otherwise get a crash-course in the art of becoming a Guru.

Effects taught:
Grow Larger
Psychokinetic plastic
Shiva and the Crystal
Ancient Vs Modern
Pyramid Power Variation
Pyramid Props
Paper Pyramid
Carbon and a Magnet
David Hoy Back of the Room
Fortune Telling
Psychic Outs
Board of Ramalan
Die of Ramanan
Tarot Marker
And Much More!

If you are interested, you can find this DVD at this link:

http://skywardmagic.com/shop/categories/mentalism/metaphysical/guru/ [/quote]

Thank you, Robert.

I'll take your word over those who are speculating.

And I know Bill actually works this market so, if he is giving advice on how people could enter and approach it may be a little more useful than the advice you get from people dispense their wisdom here but have never done and never been.

It is a catchy title, Guru. :)

Tony
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 05:22PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote:
I don't use trickery, because I don't need to, but I never said that I don't, so even though that's true, don't put words in my mouth. Also, avoid looking a fool and actually read what I write when addressing me to avoid confusion. [/quote]

Um.... Avoiding confusion is impossible with this sentence.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 05:41PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:

Thank you, Robert.

I'll take your word over those who are speculating.

And I know Bill actually works this market so, if he is giving advice on how people could enter and approach it may be a little more useful than the advice you get from people dispense their wisdom here but have never done and never been.

It is a catchy title, Guru. :)

Tony [/quote]


Not sure if you're including me here, but let me say this. I have been closely involved with the metaphysical scene for most of my life, albeit not as a mentalist.

While of course readings and divination do have a place and are totally appropriate, I feel it is morally wrong to use deceit or trickery on people who are genuinely seeking knowledge.

It shows a profound lack of respect for the people you are working with if you use trickery on people who assume you to be genuine.

That is completely different than a mentalist working in an entertainment capacity. I would hope that is not a controversial statement.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 2, 2017 06:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:

Thank you, Robert.

I'll take your word over those who are speculating.

And I know Bill actually works this market so, if he is giving advice on how people could enter and approach it may be a little more useful than the advice you get from people dispense their wisdom here but have never done and never been.

It is a catchy title, Guru. :)

Tony [/quote]


Not sure if you're including me here, but let me say this. I have been closely involved with the metaphysical scene for most of my life, albeit not as a mentalist.

While of course readings and divination do have a place and are totally appropriate, I feel it is morally wrong to use deceit or trickery on people who are genuinely seeking knowledge.

It shows a profound lack of respect for the people you are working with if you use trickery on people who assume you to be genuine.

That is completely different than a mentalist working in an entertainment capacity. I would hope that is not a controversial statement. [/quote]

Matthew:

I don't use trickery either and have been part of the New Age community since the 1970s. I grew up two towns over from Salem MA, and two towns over from Cambridge MA. And was associated with both communities, and still am. One of my earliest real mentors was Ray Buckland, who just passed into the light.

And although I don't used trickery, many people do as a hook or a way of accentuating a point. After all Religion is Show Business.
Public speaking is public speaking, teaching is teaching,illustrating a point with a special effect is commonplace.

Have you ever been to a fire circle where flash paper, powder, or some other magic additive wasn't used? In the past 30 years, I haven't.

Perhaps you would care to shed light on why you are making these comments which shine a negative light on a product you have not seen?
Do you protest gospel magicians? What type of object lessons are acceptable to Matthew Mayavi?

Not having seen the video yet, I have nothing to say about it. But like me, Bill has been there, has a verifiable pedigree, and is older than my children.


Tony
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 06:55PM)
I don't mean to be negative, and as I said in my first post - I wasn't commenting on this product specifically. However the cover + plus the copy did give me pause, and that is why I said something.

I think there is a line between entertainment and taking advantage of others.

Gospel magic is magic. It's not presented as gods actual miracles.

If you purport to be a spiritual teacher, and you use deceit or trickery, then you are doing a disservice to your students. You are making them believe that you are capable of something that you aren't. Therefore you are not teaching them truth.

Worse is a certain type of cynicism with regards to the people who are honestly seeking. Those who look down with condescension on people who genuinely hold these beliefs.
I understand the use of 'hooks' and I see them in the traditional martial arts community as well (body magic stuff presented as Chi), but I disagree with them for the most part. You are creating unrealistic expectations and that is a disservice to your 'students'.


You say that Religion is show business and you are correct of course, however there should always be an honest contract between performer and participants in this respect. In the cases that I feel go more in the direction of taking advantage, the audience believes that what they are seeing is real. Not like in a mentalism show where the contract is one of entertainment, but where the performer is purporting to teach spiritual lessons and is demonstrating the results of his spiritual practice.

I just don't think this is that morally ambiguous...

Again - to reiterate - I don't know what is in the this video. My comments were based on the copy and the cover, which gives of a bit of a cynical tone.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 2, 2017 07:24PM)
You are making a lot of assumptions and avoided the topic of object lessons and the use of special effects to punctuate a point or get a point across. Gospel magic is used by some during services to do just as I have stated. Who is to say what is on this is any different?

Not having seen the video, I am not willing to make assumptions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvTwv5o1Qs :)
Message: Posted by: Bill Cushman (Oct 2, 2017 07:31PM)
I have seen work from Bill where he unapologetically teaches how to use trickery to make money from people in the metaphysical community. He is very honest about this. And quite knowledgeable.

Matthew, how do you feel about the use of trickery in shamanism, in service of creating "buy-in" for a cure? While I agree with most of what you wrote, this area gives me pause.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 07:55PM)
Tony, I see your point, and I really have tried to qualify my statements that I am expressing my opinion and have not seen the video. To your point about special effects - I think there will be some situations where special effects are fine and others where they are not.

Ultimately its about respect for you students/participants/audiences. Do you genuinely want them to grow or are you more interested in taking advantage of their belief systems for your own gain, whether it be ego or money or both. Would you admit that it was a special effect? Or would you lie in the situation where you are asked?

I think that anyone that works in 'genuine' circles should consider their motivations and desires very carefully. Can we agree on that?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 2, 2017 08:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Bill Cushman wrote:
I have seen work from Bill where he unapologetically teaches how to use trickery to make money from people in the metaphysical community. He is very honest about this. And quite knowledgeable.

Matthew, how do you feel about the use of trickery in shamanism, in service of creating "buy-in" for a cure? While I agree with most of what you wrote, this area gives me pause. [/quote]

Well again - here we come upon the line. I think it really it worth considering this individually for each performer.

Shamanism may be a good example of 'Sacred Trickery' if there is such a thing (and I think there is). It comes down to ego I think. If the goal is GENUINELY to heal another person and the trickery is done in this selfless manner, perhaps that is a good thing. I'm not sure I could believe that Shamanism techniques could be learned via DVD though....
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 01:15AM)
If you are using trickery in a non-entertainment scenario you are a charlatan -plain and simple.
Message: Posted by: Caveman (Oct 3, 2017 05:04AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
If you are using trickery in a non-entertainment scenario you are a charlatan -plain and simple. [/quote]

Hasn't religion been a source of entertainment for centuries? Now, I have no problem calling plenty of religious figures charlatans, but they do seem to give the people what they want. How many people would beleive in Jesus minus the magic? Lots of guys have great messages, but people tend to pay better attention when there's some magic involved. India, as you know, has a rich tradition of magic; magic solely for entertainment, and magic to accentuate a point. Gurus have been using it for ages. I don't like taking advantage of people's gullibility, but there's an element of art as medicine to what they do...I find this stuff fascinating. It's not like it's the streetside 3 card monte in NYC.

Is it okay when the practitioner is a shut eye, performing a ritual that is elsewhere used as trickery? Is every Shaman a shut eye? (certainly not), but they provide a valuable spiritual resource to their community.
What do you guys think of Sai Baba? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJYgXXvRSec

Just some thoughts. As for the DVD and Mr Montana, I haven't seen it, and know little of his work, my thoughts are only in response to some of the dialogue in this thread.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 05:16AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Caveman wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
If you are using trickery in a non-entertainment scenario you are a charlatan -plain and simple. [/quote]

Hasn't religion been a source of entertainment for centuries? [/quote]

No. Unless you wish to abuse the English language. Any religious person/psychic/guru using magic tricks to fool his followers is a charlatan. Or take your choice from the dictionary synonyms:

CHARLATAN
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n
noun

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.

synonyms: con-artist, quack, mountebank, sham, fraud, fake, humbug, impostor, pretender, masquerader, hoodwinker, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, dissembler, double-dealer, double-crosser, trickster, confidence trickster, cheater, swindler, fraudster, racketeer; rogue, villain, scoundrel
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Oct 3, 2017 07:47AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Caveman wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
If you are using trickery in a non-entertainment scenario you are a charlatan -plain and simple. [/quote]

Hasn't religion been a source of entertainment for centuries? [/quote]

No. Unless you wish to abuse the English language. Any religious person/psychic/guru using magic tricks to fool his followers is a charlatan. Or take your choice from the dictionary synonyms:

CHARLATAN
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n
noun

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.

synonyms: con-artist, quack, mountebank, sham, fraud, fake, humbug, impostor, pretender, masquerader, hoodwinker, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, dissembler, double-dealer, double-crosser, trickster, confidence trickster, cheater, swindler, fraudster, racketeer; rogue, villain, scoundrel [/quote]

+ 1
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 08:17AM)
Lots of comments and opinions as well as name calling.

Question, who outside of Robert has actually seen the video?
Message: Posted by: Caveman (Oct 3, 2017 08:27AM)
Like I said, religion is full of tricksters, but many of those tricksters double as entertainers. And, sometimes the line is blurred.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 08:55AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
...
CHARLATAN
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n
noun

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.

synonyms: con-artist, quack, mountebank, sham, fraud, fake, humbug, impostor, pretender, masquerader, hoodwinker, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, dissembler, double-dealer, double-crosser, trickster, confidence trickster, cheater, swindler, fraudster, racketeer; rogue, villain, scoundrel [/quote]

So, would the people posting in this thread about Bill and his video without having seen it fit this definition? As I read it, yes.

Thank you, Martin, for clearing this up.

I find it in poor taste to trash a person and a product, unseen, based on opinion and personal bias.

And yes, you are trashing him.

Sure, points here may be right in some contexts, but without having see it, that is just hearsay. And hearsay and heresy are only a letter apart. ;)

Sure, I've had issues with products and posted comments, but I owned the products...

Tony Iacoviello
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 3, 2017 09:59AM)
A few people yammering here who obviously know nothing about mentalism or metaphysical work, let alone anything about Bill’s work. And some pushing the JREF nonsense, talk about a fraud and a charlatan!

Tony and Robert are very well known and respected and I know they are extremely well-versed, and Bill has more knowledge and experience than all of you others combined. Go back to card tricks and leave the real work to the adults.
Message: Posted by: Gumar Oz DuBar (Oct 3, 2017 10:03AM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
I have been closely involved with the metaphysical scene for most of my life, albeit not as a mentalist. [/quote]

This statement, plus your username, equals me right now. C'mon, we both know this isn't true.

[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Gumar Oz DuBar wrote:
I don't use trickery, because I don't need to, but I never said that I don't, so even though that's true, don't put words in my mouth. Also, avoid looking a fool and actually read what I write when addressing me to avoid confusion. [/quote]

Um.... Avoiding confusion is impossible with this sentence. [/quote]

Perhaps this is true for someone that doesn't understand the English language, or at the very least, declines to take time to read what has actually been written.

I'll break it down into bite-sized child pieces for you:

- In my original statement, I said that what I do doesn't require trickery. This statement is different than saying that one doesn't use trickery. "Require" means "has to" and is another way of saying "necessary". [Hopefully you haven't gotten lost yet.]

- You said that I made the statement that I don't use trickery, when in fact, I did not say that. I said, "what I do doesn't require trickery", which as I just explained above, is different from making the statement that I don't use trickery, because of... you know ...the meaning and definitions of words. You misread or assumed, and one should avoid doing both, especially the latter. [Hopefully you're still with me and something shiny hasn't distracted you.]

- I then addressed whether or not I used trickery, because if I didn't address it, I knew that that's the next thing I'd be asked. So I preempted you, and basically said that I don't use trickery because I don't need to, but made clear that what you claimed I stated was not stated by me (and because of this, you were putting words in my mouth). [This can't be too hard to understand can it? You said that I made a specific statement, but in reality, I didn't. Then I quoted my statement, and it was different from what you said I had stated... meaning not the same thing.]

- I then admonished you for putting words in my mouth, and not reading properly, or simply making things up, and then told you to reread where you claimed I said something that I just told you I didn't and gave quotes to back up my proof. [Simple for any that speak English fluently, can read it, and can follow a sentence.]


Don't know why you're interested in me though.


This thread is about Bill Montana's wonderful DVD/video product, Guru.


Which I can't recommend enough to anyone that wants a solid crash-course in the metaphysical markets.

The best thing about Bill's work is that it is so protean in nature. It's so versatile and can be used in many different ways.

For instance, I use his "Grow Larger" for all types of different things, including an intention exercise, for one-on-one sessions, in group work (which is, I believe the way he teaches it), and for much more. That's just one of the tools taught on here and it's worth the price for that alone. Although because most, if not all, all of his techniques, tools, and work can be used for more than one thing, most of the pieces taught on here are worth the price just for themselves. Sounds a bit like hyping, but it's the truth. This DVD really is a crash-course on work in the metaphysical market, and it's filled with valuable knowledge and information to start you off on this path, or to make what you're doing even better, allowing you to be more successful professionally.

Real, practical, multi-purpose techniques that can be used for different things, and that is valuable and rare in itself when it comes to the popular mentalism techniques of today.


Anyone who doesn't actually own, know, and understand Bill's work, probably shouldn't comment on it. Seeing as they don't know what they're speaking about.
Message: Posted by: FocusYourMAYND (Oct 3, 2017 10:17AM)
Dad would suspect this entire debate was a ruse to increase sales. Well played! FYM
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Oct 3, 2017 10:21AM)
I've got a lot of Bill's material. I can honestly say I've used stuff from Bill in every performance, even casual ones, in the past three years.

I don't have Guru as I am currently focusing on paying off bills rather than purchasing new material, but I am confident that any performer who has the confidence to use his methods and techniques will find value in it.
Message: Posted by: Peter_turner (Oct 3, 2017 10:34AM)
I’m going to pick this up, I saw the trailer and other than the plastic bending (I don’t like any type of pk bending type material) it looks interesting - I love the fact Bill calls himself a guru, I’m a prophet - it’s all relative.

I very rarely get time to watch anything these days but I’m going to make time for it.

Pete x
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 10:35AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
...
CHARLATAN
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n
noun

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.

synonyms: con-artist, quack, mountebank, sham, fraud, fake, humbug, impostor, pretender, masquerader, hoodwinker, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, dissembler, double-dealer, double-crosser, trickster, confidence trickster, cheater, swindler, fraudster, racketeer; rogue, villain, scoundrel [/quote]

So, would the people posting in this thread about Bill and his video without having seen it fit this definition? As I read it, yes.

Thank you, Martin, for clearing this up.

I find it in poor taste to trash a person and a product, unseen, based on opinion and personal bias.

And yes, you are trashing him.

Sure, points here may be right in some contexts, but without having see it, that is just hearsay. And hearsay and heresy are only a letter apart. ;)

Sure, I've had issues with products and posted comments, but I owned the products...

Tony Iacoviello [/quote]

If someone released a DVD called "How To Be A Real Pick-pocket" I would post that they were utterly unethical, and I wouldn't need to have paid the exorbitant price of the DVD to make that post.
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Oct 3, 2017 10:43AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:

If someone released a DVD called "How To Be A Real Pick-pocket" I would post that they were utterly unethical, and I wouldn't need to have paid the exorbitant price of the DVD to make that post. [/quote]

Well said, Martin.

People are free to discuss their perspectives on concepts relating to the subject or topic of a product.
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Oct 3, 2017 10:45AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, FocusYourMAYND wrote:
Dad would suspect this entire debate was a ruse to increase sales. Well played! FYM [/quote]

JR may be right...
Message: Posted by: Caveman (Oct 3, 2017 10:53AM)
Sorry to have derailed the thread in any way guys, the subject of Gurus has always been a deep source of fascination for me.

Mr Montanas work looks very intriguing, and it certainly is a catchy title.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 11:01AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
...
CHARLATAN
ˈʃɑːlət(ə)n
noun

a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill.

synonyms: con-artist, quack, mountebank, sham, fraud, fake, humbug, impostor, pretender, masquerader, hoodwinker, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, dissembler, double-dealer, double-crosser, trickster, confidence trickster, cheater, swindler, fraudster, racketeer; rogue, villain, scoundrel [/quote]

So, would the people posting in this thread about Bill and his video without having seen it fit this definition? As I read it, yes.

Thank you, Martin, for clearing this up.

I find it in poor taste to trash a person and a product, unseen, based on opinion and personal bias.

And yes, you are trashing him.

Sure, points here may be right in some contexts, but without having see it, that is just hearsay. And hearsay and heresy are only a letter apart. ;)

Sure, I've had issues with products and posted comments, but I owned the products...

Tony Iacoviello [/quote]

If someone released a DVD called "How To Be A Real Pick-pocket" I would post that they were utterly unethical, and I wouldn't need to have paid the exorbitant price of the DVD to make that post. [/quote]

That isn't what he named it, is it? He called it "Guru". Yes, he says it shows you how to take your mentalism to the metaphysical market. that can mean a variety of things.

Until you watched it you would be speaking out of your "butt". Unless, of course you are omnipotent, is that what you are claiming?

No wonder people stay away from this place, people post from ignorance and pass it off a gospel.

Had you purchased the product and posted this as your opinion, I'd say, "Fine, it is what you thought of the material, you bought it, it is your right."

But that isn't what is going on here, is it? Nope, you are insulting Bill and demeaning his product without ever seeing it. That is ignorance. I never took you as that type of person before. Live and learn, I guess.

Question, where were you all when someone else released a product called "Charlatan"? I didn't see any of this farting going on there.

This thread is full of more than just charlatans. ;)

Tony Iacoviello
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 11:10AM)
The blurb for Mr Montana's Penguin lecture openly states that he has worked as "a charlatan faith healer and professional psychic". Presumably he signed off on that biog, so I can't see that he could offence at me repeating it.

In any event, I was supporting Last Laugh's opinion on the use of trickery in metaphysical work in general rather than this DVD in particular.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 11:18AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
...

In any event, I was supporting Last Laugh's opinion on the use of trickery in metaphysical work in general rather than this DVD in particular. [/quote]

If that is the case, why post it in a thread about this product???
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 11:26AM)
Because I was replying to a post in this thread.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 11:29AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Because I was replying to a post in this thread. [/quote]

So you continued off topic diatribe that is pointed at demeaning Bill and his video.

Good thing Matthew didn't jump off a bridge, we may have lost you both. ;)
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 11:35AM)
Discussing charlatans and the ethical use of trickery on a thread about a DVD devoted to becoming a "Guru" -released by someone who has worked as a "charlatan faith healer"- is not off-topic. It is 100% on topic.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 11:42AM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Discussing charlatans and the ethical use of trickery on a thread about a DVD devoted to becoming a "Guru" -released by someone who has worked as a "charlatan faith healer"- is not off-topic. It is 100% on topic. [/quote]

Not in this section of the Café, this is for product discussions not off topic banter. :)

This isn't Penny.
Message: Posted by: Clifford the Red (Oct 3, 2017 11:48AM)
No one cares about all this fake holier than thou crap 💩. Having an “opinion” on a product and person and genre you know nothing about is simply more Café trolling by little men trying to insert themselves in conversations they painfully obviously know nothing about. I have no patience for this garbage.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 12:08PM)
Maybe some followers of this particular "Guru" can enter his competition:

"I will be running a contest soon for a copy of Guru. But in the meantime anyone who rips on Mindpro, Last laugh or any of those other bozo's 9that's another word for clown) in the most creative way with the best comment without getting the thread taken down or kicked off the Café will win a special free audio program of choice from those that I have done.

Now should one expose martin pullman as the fake he is with supporting facts that must be check able will win a audio program as well a 57 dollar value and up. This additional exposure can have more than one winner Limit 5. But the exposure must be unique to each person." -Bill Montana

Classy stuff! Just what I would expect from someone teacher others to be Gurus. I'm hurt I'm only worth $57 dollars though! And it's 'Pulman', not "Pullman'. I'd hate to think some poor chap called Martin Pullman would be getting his name besmirched all over the internet!
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 12:15PM)
I am not ripping on Mindpro, he said exactly what needed to be said, albeit in another thread:

[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, Mindpro wrote:
A prime example of exactly what I was referring to of someone passing of uninformed opinion to others as fact. Ignorance and flaming is not intelligence. [/quote]

That describes this thread.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2017 12:58PM)
Best thread ever, it's got it all...
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 3, 2017 04:27PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Caveman wrote:

What do you guys think of Sai Baba? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJYgXXvRSec

[/quote]

I grew up around a number of Sai Baba devotees. They were mostly all very good folks, but there were some stories about his.... proclivities for young men/boys. People like to think that everything is part of the teaching so they are eager to ignore disturbing stories.

When I was younger I very much believed that his manifestations, etc, were real. I spent time in India as well, and I was actively looking for others who had 'Siddhis'. None of the genuine spiritual teachers I met did siddhis and in fact every single one that I asked said something along the lines of 'Siddhis are a distraction and take people in the wrong direction'.

Now, with an interest in magic and sleight of hand, when I finally saw Sai Baba's 'manifestations' I was sorely disappointed because his sleight of hand isn't even good. It's obvious trickery. His vibbhuti trick is decent, I'll say, but there's no secret to how he does it. I'll say this too - I was able to examine a large quantity of this ash from the 70s and then another batch from the 90s and its a completely different 'scent'. He mush have changed incense formulas....

But the worse part is the abuse. There are at the very least dozens of boys and young men (probably more) that have come forward telling a very similar story of sexual abuse. That is not the activity of a real guru.

Now it's true that there are plenty of sadhus and gurus that will use occasional trickery BUT they are of lesser quality. The best teachers only teach, they don't use anything. The teachings don't need any help because the truth is the purest magic.




And [b]GUMAR[/b], listen. The level of sneering condescension that comes from your posts makes me concerned for your 'students'. You made ambiguous statements and then insulted me for not wasting my time examine the minutia of your posts. Instead of constantly referring back to your own previous words, you COULD just explain yourself....

And I don't know what you meant by 'we both know this isn't true' but you don't know me, and it IS true that I have spent most of my life around metaphysical circles. Further, for more than half of my life, I have performed regularly as a musician in spiritual circles. I used to travel with a very well known spiritual teacher to provide music for retreats. This is all easily verifiable, but I won't waste my time since you 'know it isn't true'.

You basically prove my point for me. Your attitude proves to me that there is no way you could possibly care about the spiritual growth of your 'students' and you seem exactly like the kind of person who sees them instead as marks...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2017 04:35PM)
*mic drop*
Message: Posted by: tomd (Oct 3, 2017 05:04PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Caveman wrote:

What do you guys think of Sai Baba? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJYgXXvRSec

[/quote]

I grew up around a number of Sai Baba devotees. They were mostly all very good folks, but there were some stories about his.... proclivities for young men/boys. People like to think that everything is part of the teaching so they are eager to ignore disturbing stories.

When I was younger I very much believed that his manifestations, etc, were real. I spent time in India as well, and I was actively looking for others who had 'Siddhis'. None of the genuine spiritual teachers I met did siddhis and in fact every single one that I asked said something along the lines of 'Siddhis are a distraction and take people in the wrong direction'.

Now, with an interest in magic and sleight of hand, when I finally saw Sai Baba's 'manifestations' I was sorely disappointed because his sleight of hand isn't even good. It's obvious trickery. His vibbhuti trick is decent, I'll say, but there's no secret to how he does it. I'll say this too - I was able to examine a large quantity of this ash from the 70s and then another batch from the 90s and its a completely different 'scent'. He mush have changed incense formulas....

But the worse part is the abuse. There are at the very least dozens of boys and young men (probably more) that have come forward telling a very similar story of sexual abuse. That is not the activity of a real guru.

Now it's true that there are plenty of sadhus and gurus that will use occasional trickery BUT they are of lesser quality. The best teachers only teach, they don't use anything. The teachings don't need any help because the truth is the purest magic.




And [b]GUMAR[/b], listen. The level of sneering condescension that comes from your posts makes me concerned for your 'students'. You made ambiguous statements and then insulted me for not wasting my time examine the minutia of your posts. Instead of constantly referring back to your own previous words, you COULD just explain yourself....

And I don't know what you meant by 'we both know this isn't true' but you don't know me, and it IS true that I have spent most of my life around metaphysical circles. Further, for more than half of my life, I have performed regularly as a musician in spiritual circles. I used to travel with a very well known spiritual teacher to provide music for retreats. This is all easily verifiable, but I won't waste my time since you 'know it isn't true'.

You basically prove my point for me. Your attitude proves to me that there is no way you could possibly care about the spiritual growth of your 'students' and you seem exactly like the kind of person who sees them instead as marks... [/quote]

https://youtu.be/1esrEb9p0Wc
Message: Posted by: Stunninger (Oct 3, 2017 05:04PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Discussing charlatans and the ethical use of trickery on a thread about a DVD devoted to becoming a "Guru" -released by someone who has worked as a "charlatan faith healer"- is not off-topic. It is 100% on topic. [/quote]

Not in this section of the Café, this is for product discussions not off topic banter. :)

This isn't Penny. [/quote]

Not only is it entirely on topic, *any* speculation about a product is entirely allowable in this forum:

"That is the purpose of this forum. To provide a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question... "

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=179360&forum=218
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Oct 3, 2017 05:22PM)
Is this product anything to do with the band T-Rex?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 3, 2017 07:53PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Maybe some followers of this particular "Guru" can enter his competition:

"I will be running a contest soon for a copy of Guru. But in the meantime anyone who rips on Mindpro, Last laugh or any of those other bozo's (that's another word for clown) in the most creative way with the best comment without getting the thread taken down or kicked off the Café will win a special free audio program of choice from those that I have done.

Now should one expose martin pullman as the fake he is with supporting facts that must be check able will win a audio program as well a 57 dollar value and up. This additional exposure can have more than one winner Limit 5. But the exposure must be unique to each person." -Bill Montana
[/quote]


Wow, just noticed this.

What do you say Tony Eye, these are the good guys?

Bill is as cynical and condescending as they come.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Oct 3, 2017 07:59PM)
Https://youtu.be/KN-8G0HCD5U
Message: Posted by: FocusYourMAYND (Oct 3, 2017 08:27PM)
Since there are so many tangents being flung about, on the subject of Siddhis, when dad was studying to take the robe as a Theravada monk, he witnessed several from senior monks. He was told they were expected by-products or consequences of serious meditative absorption, and should he experience them, to disregard them, not take them seriously, consider them distractions from the path, and not get trapped by them. FYM
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 3, 2017 08:34PM)
Exactly - and it should be thoroughly recognized that genuine siddhis are in no way the same thing as tricks, despite some lesser 'gurus' presenting tricks as siddhis. And just to clarify, me saying that Sai Baba's siddhis weren't real is not me saying that there on not real siddhis. There are.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 09:17PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Stunninger wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Discussing charlatans and the ethical use of trickery on a thread about a DVD devoted to becoming a "Guru" -released by someone who has worked as a "charlatan faith healer"- is not off-topic. It is 100% on topic. [/quote]

Not in this section of the Café, this is for product discussions not off topic banter. :)

This isn't Penny. [/quote]

Not only is it entirely on topic, *any* speculation about a product is entirely allowable in this forum:

"That is the purpose of this forum. To provide a place where folks can discuss the latest rumors, read announcements and speculate about the obvious hyperbole surrounding many of the upcoming products that are released into magicdom. Will they be genuine miracles or mere rhetoric? We ponder the question... "

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=179360&forum=218 [/quote]

Thank you for pointing that out. This shows that not only are the posts off topic, the thread is in the wrong area of the Café. This is not a "upcoming product" as you very keenly pointed out which is the purpose of this section. It is an existing product. I think the confusion stems from the name of this section, which contrary to the actual stated purpose implies new products not projected products.

It should be moved to Mentally Speaking and cleaned of the off topic post.

Thank you, Stunninger.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 09:20PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Maybe some followers of this particular "Guru" can enter his competition:

"I will be running a contest soon for a copy of Guru. But in the meantime anyone who rips on Mindpro, Last laugh or any of those other bozo's (that's another word for clown) in the most creative way with the best comment without getting the thread taken down or kicked off the Café will win a special free audio program of choice from those that I have done.

Now should one expose martin pullman as the fake he is with supporting facts that must be check able will win a audio program as well a 57 dollar value and up. This additional exposure can have more than one winner Limit 5. But the exposure must be unique to each person." -Bill Montana
[/quote]


Wow, just noticed this.

What do you say Tony Eye, these are the good guys?

Bill is as cynical and condescending as they come. [/quote]

And you guys have been trashing him and his work for 2 days without a one of you having looked at it.

Does that make you good guys?
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 3, 2017 10:01PM)
I only speak for me.

I have expressed my opinions about where I think the moral line is when performing in a non-entertainment context. I have repeatedly said I wasn't commenting on the product. And I have not trashed anybody at all.

I made no definite statements about Bill or this product. I am willing to engage in actual discourse and have tried to respect the opinions of others.

And Bill is running a contest to see who can trash me and others.... but doesn't actually speak up for himself.

But if you see these things as even roughly equivalent, then I really don't know what to say.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 3, 2017 10:02PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Maybe some followers of this particular "Guru" can enter his competition:

"I will be running a contest soon for a copy of Guru. But in the meantime anyone who rips on Mindpro, Last laugh or any of those other bozo's (that's another word for clown) in the most creative way with the best comment without getting the thread taken down or kicked off the Café will win a special free audio program of choice from those that I have done.

Now should one expose martin pullman as the fake he is with supporting facts that must be check able will win a audio program as well a 57 dollar value and up. This additional exposure can have more than one winner Limit 5. But the exposure must be unique to each person." -Bill Montana
[/quote]


Wow, just noticed this.

What do you say Tony Eye, these are the good guys?

Bill is as cynical and condescending as they come. [/quote]

And you guys have been trashing him and his work for 2 days without a one of you having looked at it.

Does that make you good guys? [/quote]
Yes, it does. There are a lot of young people on this web-site who perhaps have an interest in the performance art of mentalism. It is very important for them to know that not everyone here approves of using trickery to extract money from people under false pretences.

When you find yourself continuing to support someone who not only proudly talks about his days as a fake faith healer, but who also runs online competitions to start flaming threads on Café members, you have to look in the mirror and ask where your moral compass is.

Regards,
Martin Pulman (one L).
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 3, 2017 10:09PM)
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Last Laugh wrote:
[quote]On Oct 3, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
Maybe some followers of this particular "Guru" can enter his competition:

"I will be running a contest soon for a copy of Guru. But in the meantime anyone who rips on Mindpro, Last laugh or any of those other bozo's (that's another word for clown) in the most creative way with the best comment without getting the thread taken down or kicked off the Café will win a special free audio program of choice from those that I have done.

Now should one expose martin pullman as the fake he is with supporting facts that must be check able will win a audio program as well a 57 dollar value and up. This additional exposure can have more than one winner Limit 5. But the exposure must be unique to each person." -Bill Montana
[/quote]


Wow, just noticed this.

What do you say Tony Eye, these are the good guys?

Bill is as cynical and condescending as they come. [/quote]

And you guys have been trashing him and his work for 2 days without a one of you having looked at it.

Does that make you good guys? [/quote]
Yes, it does. There are a lot of young people on this web-site who perhaps have an interest in the performance art of mentalism. It is very important for them to know that not everyone here approves of using trickery to extract money from people under false pretences.

When you find yourself continuing to support someone who not only proudly talks about his days as a fake faith healer with pride but also runs competitions to start flaming threads on Café members, you have to look in the mirror and ask where your moral compass is.

Regards,
Martin Pulman (one L). [/quote]

I just looked in a mirror, and my reflection said I don't pass judgment on products I have not seen, I prefer not to speak out of ignorance and make assumptions. What does your mirror say?

Tony Iacoviello (2 L's)
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 3, 2017 10:12PM)
At this point judgment is being passed on behavior of the creator.... that is indeed relevant.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Oct 4, 2017 07:54AM)
As a retired professional Tarot reader, I have performed thousands of readings for querents, and while I give genuine oracular readings, I do use cold reading techniques to enhance the reading. Is this trickery? Maybe . . .

I have also talked about using a marked Tarot deck as a means to add extra impact to a reading. Another little element of trickery, but in no way detracting from the genuine aspect of the reading.

Heck, I even showed how you could adapt the venerable 21-card trick into an actual reading with a climax.

I have acquired some of Bill's stuff over the years, and in my experience, many of the things he teaches are enhancements to the genuine stuff. In a way, they are "convincers" for when you want to truly convince a reluctant querent that they should take the experience seriously.

Mind you, this is nothing that the beginning worker should attempt. This is stuff meant for the experienced worker who already has a solid background in the real stuff, and is looking for ways to spice up their material, fully understanding the responsibility for incorporating the "tricks."

So unless you have walked the path for awhile, and actually watched Bill's video, you are incapable of offering a well-informed opinion and should just remain quiet so you don't look any more of a fool.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Oct 5, 2017 11:27AM)
Context is important here.

For one, I've seen several performers who are clearly good at what they do get flat reactions in a lecture scenario. Magicians are the worst audiences. Like when a comedian watches a comedy show and goes, "That's a good joke" instead of laughing. I feel like it might be an ego thing, too, but I could just be being judgmental there. If a crowd of magicians doesn't really 'get' the material, and can't figure out any of it, they don't like it.

Second, I don't really worry about what magicians think. Laymen pay my fees, not magicians. Though I did get a lot of great reactions from a fellow magician and med student in NYC showing him this kind of stuff (Mixture of Montana's stuff, Aaron Alexanders, and my own).

When I say this material gets great reactions, I'm referring to lay audiences.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Oct 5, 2017 01:46PM)
If I were to name a specific I'd say Mystic Orb. I've used it hundreds of times, and only had it not work out twice. Once on a magician, once on this kind of odd buddhist monk dude in New Orleans.
Message: Posted by: Tony Iacoviello (Oct 5, 2017 08:39PM)
OK, Ive watched the video twice so far, and Bill was very focused in his teaching and explanations, yes he does bring in related matter, but explains each of his topics so that they are perfectly clear. Also the negativity expressed in this thread is misplaced. Bill discusses shows, lectures, and other aspects of the business I will post my thoughts on the video at a later time. We had a death in the family and I am needed elsewhere and doing other things.

Tony Iacoviello
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 6, 2017 02:00AM)
[quote]On Oct 4, 2017, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:

Mind you, this is nothing that the beginning worker should attempt. This is stuff meant for the experienced worker who already has a solid background in the real stuff, and is looking for ways to spice up their material, fully understanding the responsibility for incorporating the "tricks."

So unless you have walked the path for awhile, and actually watched Bill's video, you are incapable of offering a well-informed opinion and should just remain quiet so you don't look any more of a fool. [/quote]

The old "not for beginners", "real stuff" sales-pitch used to work with the gullible newcomers on the Café a few years ago. Even the youngsters have got wise to it. Material stands or falls on its own merits and its practical application in the real world of proper paying customers.

And trying to dismiss criticism of poor performances, weak material and dodgy ethics by calling people "fools" and telling them to be "quiet" is proof only of a rather amateurish fear of honest criticism. Real professionals are used to having their work critiqued day in and day out from a wide variety of people.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 6, 2017 02:44AM)
[quote]On Oct 5, 2017, Tony Iacoviello wrote:
OK, Ive watched the video twice so far, and Bill was very focused in his teaching and explanations, yes he does bring in related matter, but explains each of his topics so that they are perfectly clear. Also the negativity expressed in this thread is misplaced. Bill discusses shows, lectures, and other aspects of the business I will post my thoughts on the video at a later time. We had a death in the family and I am needed elsewhere and doing other things.

Tony Iacoviello [/quote]
Sorry for your loss, Tony.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Oct 6, 2017 06:21AM)
Not sure if I am amused or bemused by this thread? R.A.N. flopping around in his grave, like a trout, laughing at it all.
Message: Posted by: Gumar Oz DuBar (Oct 6, 2017 07:01AM)
I wonder why my response to Last Laugh was deleted, as well as his reply to it, but everything leading up to wasn't. Since moved to Mentally Speaking, all of those kind of posts were off-topic, but kept. However, when resolution is made, those post disappear and the ones that remain are only Last Laughs? Very strange.

As far as everything else goes, Bill presents useable information to get steady work in a unique market.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Oct 6, 2017 08:11AM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2017, Martin Pulman wrote:
The old "not for beginners", "real stuff" sales-pitch used to work with the gullible newcomers on the Café a few years ago. Even the youngsters have got wise to it. Material stands or falls on its own merits and its practical application in the real world of proper paying customers.

And trying to dismiss criticism of poor performances, weak material and dodgy ethics by calling people "fools" and telling them to be "quiet" is proof only of a rather amateurish fear of honest criticism. Real professionals are used to having their work critiqued day in and day out from a wide variety of people. [/quote]

There are many techniques that are not suitable for the beginning mentalist. As in any art, you have to start with the basics, and then work your way up to the more complicated methods that require subtlety and experience. I have seen far too many well-meaning amateurs completely botch up an advanced routine simply because they didn't fully understand the nuances involved. For example, you cannot be an expert cold-reader simply by reading a book or two; you have to get yourself in the trenches for a few years to learn the knacks of what works and what doesn't. Even my own book on cold-reading is only for those who have been reading for years; I would never recommend it for the beginner, as it doesn't teach them how to cold-read, but rather how to refine their existing techniques.

Let me put it another way. I'm a high school math teacher, and I would never recommend that a student attempt to learn calculus without first mastering algebra and trigonometry. If the only thing they know is how to simplify fractions, they will be completely lost when trying to calculate a derivative or an integral. Magic, like math, has techniques that are simply not suited to the beginner who has just learned the double lift or can perform a decent equivoque.

I have no fear of "honest criticism," but most amateurs are incapable of providing such. They think like magicians, not like laypeople, and see something completely different than the ordinary person who has little experience with mentalism. I've lost count the number of times that a well-meaning amateur has taken upon themselves to critique one of my performances, not understanding the underlying psychology that makes it work in the real world. For example, when I do a Mental Epic style routine, I never get an answer exactly right, just very close. This adds a level of verisimilitude to the routine from a layperson's perspective, since if it was just a trick, I would get everything exactly right. And yet, I've had many an amateur come up to me and wonder why I didn't just get every answer exactly right. They are often incapable of looking at a routine and examining it from the P.O.V. of what would happen if it was "real." In reality, nothing in mentalism should be 100% perfect. Reading minds should be difficult and being 80% accurate is far more impressive than being on the nose all the time.

Alas, we have many a person on this forum who fancy themselves experts when they are really just beginners. And then there are those who think because they are expert in one field, that they are experts in all fields. Once again, the D-K effect rears its ugly head.

Besides, it's easy to claim that you are an expert when you are anonymous, but unless you have the actual credentials to back up your claim, then you're just another faceless voice whispering in the wind.
Message: Posted by: Martin Pulman (Oct 6, 2017 06:08PM)
[quote]On Oct 6, 2017, Philemon Vanderbeck wrote:

There are many techniques that are not suitable for the beginning mentalist. As in any art, you have to start with the basics, and then work your way up to the more complicated methods that require subtlety and experience. I have seen far too many well-meaning amateurs completely botch up an advanced routine simply because they didn't fully understand the nuances involved. For example, you cannot be an expert cold-reader simply by reading a book or two; you have to get yourself in the trenches for a few years to learn the knacks of what works and what doesn't. Even my own book on cold-reading is only for those who have been reading for years; I would never recommend it for the beginner, as it doesn't teach them how to cold-read, but rather how to refine their existing techniques.

Let me put it another way. I'm a high school math teacher, and I would never recommend that a student attempt to learn calculus without first mastering algebra and trigonometry. If the only thing they know is how to simplify fractions, they will be completely lost when trying to calculate a derivative or an integral. Magic, like math, has techniques that are simply not suited to the beginner who has just learned the double lift or can perform a decent equivoque.

I have no fear of "honest criticism," but most amateurs are incapable of providing such. They think like magicians, not like laypeople, and see something completely different than the ordinary person who has little experience with mentalism. I've lost count the number of times that a well-meaning amateur has taken upon themselves to critique one of my performances, not understanding the underlying psychology that makes it work in the real world. For example, when I do a Mental Epic style routine, I never get an answer exactly right, just very close. This adds a level of verisimilitude to the routine from a layperson's perspective, since if it was just a trick, I would get everything exactly right. And yet, I've had many an amateur come up to me and wonder why I didn't just get every answer exactly right. They are often incapable of looking at a routine and examining it from the P.O.V. of what would happen if it was "real." In reality, nothing in mentalism should be 100% perfect. Reading minds should be difficult and being 80% accurate is far more impressive than being on the nose all the time.

Alas, we have many a person on this forum who fancy themselves experts when they are really just beginners. And then there are those who think because they are expert in one field, that they are experts in all fields. Once again, the D-K effect rears its ugly head.

Besides, it's easy to claim that you are an expert when you are anonymous, but unless you have the actual credentials to back up your claim, then you're just another faceless voice whispering in the wind. [/quote]
I quite agree, Philemon. The one thing I do really admire about someone like Bill Montana is he wants mentalism to have weight and meaning, and to feel as if something plausibly real is occurring. Too much mentalism now is really just mental magic.

I also agree with you about the non-professional mindset. People who are not full-time professionals in the entertainment field really have very little idea what it takes to build and maintain a career in that arena. It is very easy to dabble in performance on an amateur basis or even a part-time basis while relying on another job. It is very difficult to actually devote your life full-time to something, and once you do you have to develop a completely different mindset from the amateur/part-time performer. Your outlook changes completely when it is performing- and only performing-that puts bread on your table. Thanks for your thoughts.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Oct 6, 2017 08:52PM)
Thanks for clarifying your thoughts Martin. Mental Magic, Mentalism, Spiritualism, hoodoo. voodoo, root work, religion, faith healing, readers, mystics, new age, fairs .....etc It's a big field and doesn't fit in a neat package. Certainly not a Magic Café package. Historical perspective is helpful in drawing rational perspectives. People are free to love or hate Bill's works. He is about as authentic as they come but you might not like what he does. There are always magic bunnies.........
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Oct 7, 2017 02:02AM)
Gentlemen, if anyone is interested in discussing the idea of using trickery or mentalism techniques outside of an entertainment context, I started another thread. Then it won't be unfairly considered a judgment on this product...

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=651417&forum=15