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Topic: Las Vegas Shooting
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Oct 2, 2017 11:50AM)
I'm sure everyone knows of the current events in LV and a little off-topic for this forum perhaps.

However I wanted to send best wishes to our friends in Vegas, I hope you and your families and friends are safe and well during these times.

Peace.
Message: Posted by: SimonCard (Oct 2, 2017 12:02PM)
I just read about it. It's horrible.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Oct 2, 2017 02:37PM)
It seems that the shooter has been classified as a professional gambler.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 2, 2017 03:05PM)
"Professional Gamblers" don't play [b]video poker[/b] for $100.00 a hand.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 2, 2017 03:28PM)
[quote]On Oct 2, 2017, cbharrelson wrote:
It seems that the shooter has been classified as a professional gambler. [/quote]

How about an insane individual? Does that fill the bill better?

Monstrous occurrence which unfortunately is becoming more and more commonplace, mass murder not just in the US but in other countries as well.

Scared me a lot when I heard the reports because my daughter went to a concert on the LV Strip Saturday night, not Sunday. Had to verify that...fortunately all was okay. What a relief.

But the poor souls that got killed. Tragic.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Oct 2, 2017 08:22PM)
He doesn't seem to have any history of mental illness and supposedly quite well planned. They are still scratching their heads on how he got all those weapons in the room as well as ammo. Still a lot to learn. Father was a bank robber. Apparently he played one of the casino poker games like ultimate Texas Holdem for $100.00 per hand. Did he lose a bunch of money? Hopefully it will all come out.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 2, 2017 09:05PM)
Absolutely tragic. Dozens killed and thousands of lives affected directly or indirectly.

Cag, I'm glad your family is safe and sound.

J
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 2, 2017 09:24PM)
Thanks Jason. Much appreciated.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 2, 2017 09:36PM)
It must have been heart stopping worrying about your kid Cag, very glad she's safe.

It's a difficult day in the United States, a heartbreaking day.
At the core of what happened is the fact that crazy people can do serious harm to innocent people and do it pretty much at will, which is why we're encouraged to always look out for each other.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Oct 2, 2017 09:39PM)
I am thankful for both you guys who live in Vegas and others perhaps mentioned or posts on this forum that live in Vegas.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Oct 2, 2017 09:47PM)
Gosh now they say this guy had 23 guns in his room not 10 as originally reported.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 2, 2017 11:44PM)
The more we hear of this shooter the more we scratch our heads. Our hearts are heavy with the grief of our American friends and all we can offer them is our condolences.
Message: Posted by: dapo24 (Oct 3, 2017 01:37AM)
I'm a couple thousand km away and it still hit me hard - I can't imagine how hard it must be for some of you guys. Hope you all can get through this and that nobody close to you got harmed.
Message: Posted by: supremefiction (Oct 14, 2017 06:33PM)
Hello,

I know some people in this forum have done a lot of work in/for casinos. Interested to hear your informed opinions regarding what is likely to exist in terms of "eye in the sky"/on premise video of the perpetrator. Seems like not much. Thanks
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 09:27AM)
[quote]On Oct 14, 2017, supremefiction wrote:

Hello,

I know some people in this forum have done a lot of work in/for casinos. Interested to hear your informed opinions regarding what is likely to exist in terms of "eye in the sky"/on premise video of the perpetrator. Seems like not much. Thanks [/quote]

Chris Wallach had a very informative interview with Steve Wynn regarding this tragic occurrence.

Wynn has been stating for the last six years that Vegas was very vulnerable to attacks of this type. He explained all the precautions he has implemented at his hotels to minimize the possibility of these occurrences...inspection of guest luggage, cameras in the hallways, training of [i]all[/i] hotel staff, including maids and housekeeping, checking on a hotel guest and his room if a "Do Not Disturb" sign is up for more than 12 hours, plus many other precautions. All this is done in a non-evasive manner. The precautions Wynn has implemented would have minimized or perhaps prevented this type attack in his hotel.

In my opinion, Mandalay Bay is no doubt going to be sued because it seems they may have been negligent and their procedures and security appears to have been sloppy. To not allow anyone in the perpetrators room for 3-4 days is ridiculous and to be able to cart up suitcase after suitcase to his room during that time period should have alerted someone to at least inquire or inspect.

Of course the first thing the left wing politicians do is talk about guns being the problem to take advantage of a tragic situation. However, all the gun control laws on the books did not and could not have prevented this tragic occurrence. And if not guns then there are homemade bombs and even large trucks and motor vehicles to plow people down with as unfortunately many countries outside the US have experienced.

I am sure many of our non-US members cannot understand the US being such a "gun culture." However, the US is a big country and in order to move west the settlers faced in a very harsh environment and everyone needed guns for self-protection and to hunt for survival. Additionally, the framers of the constitution [i]had[/i] to put in the Second Amendment allowing the citizens to own and possess firearms, the purpose of which was not so they could go hunting. It was for self-protection and to protect against government, something they had a great distrust of and many still do.

Indeed, the first thing Hitler did when he came to power in Germany was to confiscate all the guns. Trying to do so in the US would no doubt incite a bloodbath of opposition especially with the untold millions of guns in private possession.

Would be interesting to see how this continues to unfold and the precautions the hotels start to take to protect their customers and themselves against lawsuits.

I put the primary responsibility on the hotel in this instance but we will see what happens.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 15, 2017 03:21PM)
I doubt if anybody in the casino thought for a moment that this old accountant was capable of doing anything like he did. Once upon a time, I worked as a “Listener” for the law courts, where I had to listen to many convicted murderers of one sort or another who had just been given life sentences. The most extraordinary or chilling thing about most of these people was how ordinary or rather how nice, gentle, meek and mild they seemed. I mean, they were the last people I would have suspected of being capable of doing what they had done.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 15, 2017 03:26PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
... To not allow anyone in the perpetrators room for 3-4 days is ridiculous and to be able to cart up suitcase after suitcase to his room during that time period should have alerted someone to at least inquire or inspect.[/quote]
To say the very least! This fact still astonishes me. I sometimes really wonder about the utility of the dozens of cameras they say they are using...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 15, 2017 03:39PM)
What is the relevance of the cameras in the casino to this case?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 15, 2017 03:52PM)
Maybe tracking someone carrying suitcases after suitcases?
Message: Posted by: supremefiction (Oct 15, 2017 04:21PM)
Yes. That and any companions.

C - thanks for the interesting response. Yes, my assumption was that cameras in hallways we're considered not optional by now given the decreased size, complexity, & cost of such equipment.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 15, 2017 05:37PM)
He had 23 guns and I guess he probably left them in his car and smuggled them in a few at a time in his golf bags, going in and out over the days he was there.

When an old respectable millionaire, and a well-known gambler books into a casino hotel, then you really couldn’t get the odds on a bog roll, that he would start shooting people as opposed to shooting dice.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 06:20PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
What is the relevance of the cameras in the casino to this case? [/quote]
As mentioned, there were no cameras in the hallways which if there were may have helped. That is one of the security measures that Steve Wynn previously implemented in his hotels.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 15, 2017 06:28PM)
That's exactly what I meant.

They claim they have cameras for securing games or protect their assets from bad personnel, etc., and yet there are still cheats and employees stealing as much as they can. They claim their hotels are safe, then I assumed they use cameras for it (even if, apparently, there are not cameras in all hallways though). Hence my doubts. What is the utility of all those cameras?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 07:11PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
He had 23 guns and I guess he probably left them in his car and smuggled them in a few at a time in his golf bags, going in and out over the days he was there.[/quote]

No, he used suitcases and moreover he would not let the maids or housekeeping into his room for the entire time period he was there. That would not been allowed if he had been at a Wynn hotel and security would check if only to see if he was okay,i.e., to see if he had a heart attack or stroke.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 07:15PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, AMcD wrote:
What is the utility of all those cameras? [/quote]

The cameras are only there to protect the casino's assets, i.e., the casino table games, cashiers cage, slots, etc. and not to protect the customers, except indirectly to prevent liability against the casino operation.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 15, 2017 07:30PM)
You're not particularly safe in ANY Las Vegas strip property, and it's probably not the best course of action to assume that you are.

Recall the 1998 Imperial Palace murder of Donald Idiens by Greg Chao, with Chao dragging Idiens dead body all over the hotel, eventually leaving him in a stairwell ... all without anybody being the wiser, let alone hotel security even being peripherally suspicious.
Nobody saw a thing.

You may be safer in 2017 in a Wynn property, but that only because Steve Wynn is a stand up guy that has taken a position that, indeed, [i]you're not all that safe in a strip property[/i] - and he's the kind of guy to do something about it rather than go "on the cheap" to just make a buck.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 15, 2017 08:08PM)
Geez! There's obviously a big difference between what the owners of such places say and the reality. Thanks for the info.

Just ran across that one, I found it interesting:

https://skift.com/2017/10/03/8-questions-about-hotel-safety-and-security-raised-by-the-las-vegas-shooting/
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 15, 2017 08:22PM)
Maybe so but I am not sure how cameras in the hallways would have helped when all they would have seen is a well-known millionaire and respectable good customer of the casino going in and out of his room with his golf bags or another bag.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 09:56PM)
I should also mention that one of the safeguards that Wynn has incorporated is no guns are allowed in his hotels. If someone is carrying a gun, say a legal concealed gun or an open carry gun and it is discovered, he will be asked to leave the hotel. Presumably that restriction would also apply to guns in suitcases.

In a free and open society that exists in the US, it is a trade off between having personal freedoms and being subjected to more restrictive controls.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 15, 2017 10:09PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:
Maybe so but I am not sure how cameras in the hallways would have helped when all they would have seen is a well-known millionaire and respectable good customer of the casino going in and out of his room with his golf bags or another bag. [/quote]

[i]Once again[/i] we are not talking about a golf bag or [i]another[/i] bag which minimizes the reality of the situation by diminution. We are talking about a large number of suitcases being carted up to a hotel room through the hallways.

Would hallway cameras have helped? That is speculative. I don't know but what I do know is it could not have hurt the situation and maybe it could have helped if security was on its toes and if they had been trained regarding activity that to me would be suspicious.

I think as the situation unfolds and the lawsuits hit, we will certainly learn more. I can almost guarantee that all hotel/casinos in Vegas will start to implements more strict security measures and procedures, if only to protect corporate from litigation.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 15, 2017 10:23PM)
Firstly speculations always abound as everybody tries to make sense of nonsensical events like this. Some reports say that there were cameras in the hallways that were set up by the shooter, so that he could see and listen to the cops outside his room as and when they arrived. How do “we” know what we are talking about? Who told you how he got the guns into the room?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 16, 2017 08:13AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2017, tommy wrote:

...How do "we" know what we are talking about? Who told you how he got the guns into the room? [/quote]

We learned this from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Sheriff on TV news conferences and at least that is the presumption???

Does anyone know that for certain...I don't know because there were no security cameras in the hallways and I am not privy to the confidential finding of the ongoing investigation. But it will all come out eventually I'm sure.

Incidentally incoming luggage is checked at the Wynn hotels...another one of the many precautions he has implemented but evidently that is not done at the Mandalay Bay.

By the way tommy, MGM corporate may be looking for a new Head of Security if you are interested. :)
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 16, 2017 09:05AM)
I walked back and forth from my car to my room at least 30 or 40 times during my week at Treasure Island (wife and daughter :) ).
On many of those trips I had luggage in my possession, or was carrying [i]something[/i] to the car or to the room.
Once checked into the hotel on day #1, I never interacted with another hotel hospitality employee, or interacted with any hotel security for the entire week.

Indeed, walking from the parking garage to my room didn't take me anywhere near the front desk, nor did it take me through any security checkpoints.
With the room key-card in hand, you can come and go as you see fit to, with nobody the wiser.

I see this a a huge problem in light of recent events, and not just in Las Vegas - I don't recall [i]anybody[/i] monitoring my coming and going from the street to my hotel room at the New York Marriott Marquis either ... a hotel that literally overlooks Times Square.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 16, 2017 10:07AM)
Apparently, so far, not much is known:

“He didn’t bring all that up in one trip and he certainly didn’t have bellmen bring it up. Having been there for three days, he had the time to bring that up probably in either luggage or a golf bag or something of that nature,” said Sutton.

“It’s a little surprising that he could’ve hidden it well enough that when the maid service came in that they didn’t see anything but I think this is all part of the investigatory process that they’re going to have to really delve into.”
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 16, 2017 11:44AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2017, AMcD wrote:

"It's a little surprising that he could/ve hidden it well enough that when the maid service came in that they didn't see anything but I think this is all part of the investigatory process that they/re going to have to really delve into." [/quote]

Evidently he did not allow the maid service into his room so they could not see the weapons and ammunition clips stacked up. I believe he had the "Do Not Disturb" sign on his door the entire time, at least that is my understanding.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 16, 2017 12:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

I walked back and forth from my car to my room at least 30 or 40 times during my week at Treasure Island (wife and daughter :) ).
On many of those trips I had luggage in my possession, or was carrying [i]something[/i] to the car or to the room.
Once checked into the hotel on day #1, I never interacted with another hotel hospitality employee, or interacted with any hotel security for the entire week. [/quote]

According the Steve Wynn in his interview, it cost him many millions of dollars to train his entire staff and implement the procedures in his hotels to protect against these type attacks.

It seems like for many hotel casino operations that it is not cost effective to spend this amount of money on the possibility something could happen. It really takes a tragic event such as this to spur other operations to start to implement precautions. Quite frankly I think the primary motivation in most cases is to protect against litigation and not necessarily to protect human life, but perhaps I am being pessimistic.

The world is very different place than it was 20 years ago...indeed even 10 years ago. These events were unheard of on US soil during most of my lifetime. The trade-off is between personal liberty vs. much more restrictions on our freedoms.

Interesting one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin opined that those who give up their freedoms for security deserve neither freedom nor security. Freedom and personal liberty were prized above all else during the American Revolution.

Anyway you look at it, it is a tough trade-off.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 16, 2017 03:39PM)
It's not a tough trade-off at all.

Many (but not all) Americans don't wish to discuss [i]any sort of trade-off at all[/i], which is entirely their right as citizens of a sovereign nation.

But the trade-off is actually extremely simple - and only requires a will to change.
It's a trade-off that countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and many other first world countries made long ago.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 17, 2017 11:31AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

It's not a tough trade-off at all...

...It's a trade-off that countries like Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and many other first world countries made long ago. [/quote]

Interesting.

Can you be more specific as to the trade-off the Americans won't make that these other presumably more enlightened countries have made and would that have stopped this mass carnage?
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Oct 17, 2017 01:31PM)
As an individual from those " other presumably more enlightened countries", perhaps I can comment.

In a nutshell me (and most of my mates) are completely boggled with Americas fascination with guns and the desire to keep the right to own one and bare arms.

I don't mean this as a criticism but.....and this is just an opinion that I'm sure can be contested and debated.....give up your bloody guns and problem solved. I realize it's not that simple, but IMHO until you reign the guns in, you will have a problem with not just mass shootings but single shootings that add up to extraordinary numbers.

Hotel cameras are NOT and shouldn't be the solution.

Just my 2 cents which I'm sure many here may not agree.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 17, 2017 02:35PM)
@Zauberman:

Hi, welcome to the board if this is your first post here.

I believe it is indeed possible to stop future mass shooting events, however the solution does not involve further gun control measures or confiscation. Why? Because gun control does nothing to prevent mass shootings.

Just take a look at the Paris attacks perpetrated by ISIS. France has strict gun laws in line with what gun control advocates in the U.S. would like to see implemented. Even off-duty police officers in France were not allowed to carry their sidearms until after the Paris attacks in 2015.

French gun laws did nothing to stop ISIS terrorists from killing over 130 people in a single night using weapons already highly restricted in the country. All they accomplished was disarming innocent citizens and making them easy targets.

The nation of India also has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, yet this did nothing to prevent the Mumbai attacks in 2008 in which 164 people were killed.

Norway had extremely tough gun laws in 2011, but these were easily circumvented by Anders Breivik who murdered 69 members of a Workers Youth Camp on the island of Utoya.

[i]I could go on and on and on about attacks in these more "enlightened" countries. [/i]

The only solution I can see if having a highly competent private security force (not robo cops or retires), and have private security measures implemented on these type occasions. These security people know what to look for and can respond quickly. The hotels also have to have intelligent security measures put in place. Of course, this costs money which is why has not been done, yet.

I should mention I have been to many gun shoes in Las Vegas. These are huge affairs with mobs of people, many of whom are carrying guns to be traded or sold. There are guns literally everywhere - and I mean everywhere.

And guess what, I have never seen anyone get out of line or threaten anyone. No one dare. Everyone is very well behaved and polite. Mass shooting here...never heard of one and highly unlikely because the perpetrator would maybe get off one shot or two before being taken down.

And try traveling through the desert and mountain areas of Arizona, Utah, Nevada, New Mexico and other western areas of the US where you can go days and miles and literally never see another human being or man-made structure. Of course, you may see some rattlesnakes, bears, mountain lions, bob cats, wolves and the like.

Not have a gun???? Be serious.

The most vulnerable places in the US are gun free zones, where there are large numbers of unprotected people, like schools, concerts, outdoor events, etc. Same exists in Europe.

Of course, I respect those who have a completely different opinion about guns. However, much as I am horrified to say this, I expect continued events such as what occurred at the Mandalay Bay and in Europe and other countries to continue regardless of the type of "weapons" used to do so.

It is pure insanity.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 17, 2017 04:25PM)
One of the hardest things to do in this kind of case is to give the enemy his due. Love thy enemy means giving the enemy his due to get into his head if you will, to get to know the enemy and so be able to better beat him. Paddock, to give him his due, was a very intelligent, careful crafty man, who planned this thing really well. He fooled everybody around him, for nobody appears have even suspected he was about do anything like this. Some have suggested he was no mug playing video poker but was probably money laundering and have said the good machines have only about 1% edge. Some have suggested he took advantage of perks he was given by the casino for being a wealthy good customer - suggesting he was allowed to use the service lift or back door. Well, who knows but it seems to me, quite possible.
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Oct 17, 2017 07:22PM)
Good points Cagliostro. I admit I don't have a perfect solution. Like most, I wish the insanity would stop.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 17, 2017 10:06PM)
For the purposes of conversation, examples need to distinguish between political acts of foreign terrorism, and pointless acts of domestic terrorism.
Foreign and domestic terrorism are fundamentally different things, and can't be mixed up and used as examples of "the same thing".

Sovereign nations can do as they please by definition. It's encouraged.
While one countries citizens may consider it imperative that every citizen have free and unfettered access to guns, another countries citizens may consider guns an incredibly dangerous weapon, and gladly restrict access on all fronts.

There is no "right" or "wrong".

The culture you're born into may leave you with incredibly strong beliefs on a given issue, your beliefs may feel "right" to you, and may equally feel very "wrong" to somebody from elsewhere.
That's fine, and indeed that's how the world should work.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 21, 2017 02:30PM)
This is getting to be absolutely ridiculous.

It has now been almost 3 weeks since this mass murder shooting, the biggest in US history, has occurred, and yet the information has been contradictory, not clear and certainly not forth coming. The time line has changed three times and Jose Campos, the security guard had three interview scheduled and then mysteriously disappeared from sight and did not appear for those interviews. He evidently was sequestered by MGM corporation and not allowed to speak.

He then appeared for only one interview, a staged and phony interview on the Ellen DeGeneres show in which she portrayed him as a hero who saved many lives - an inaccurate portrayal for advertising purposes. Nothing against Campos in any way, but it appears he is being used as a stooge for MGM's public relations' use.

The Sheriff's department really has little to say, is oblique about the story and the FBI controls the evidence but had not made any substantive remarks on the case.

Three weeks after the most horrific mass shooting in US history and what do we really know...little or nothing.

Is it possible that much is being withheld to protect MGM corporation, because we know the liability lawsuits are going to hit, and maybe hit pretty hard?

I wonder if some heads will roll on this one? In my opinion, what has transpired to date as far as transparent disclosure as to what occured is disgraceful but then again, what do I know?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 21, 2017 02:39PM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

Foreign and domestic terrorism are fundamentally different things, and can't be mixed up and used as examples of "the same thing". [/quote]

I believe they can be equated. The motives my be different but the results are the same. People who wish to do harm get access to guns in countries with very strict gun laws, commit horrible acts using these guns and do so against an unprotected and unarmed populous.

The very wealthy and the elite in many countries have armed security to protect them (security with guns), while they go about devising strict gun laws...so what do the rest of us do?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 21, 2017 05:55PM)
In a world, where people want to be famous, in a time when spectacle is king, what do you expect?
Message: Posted by: sennheiser (Oct 23, 2017 09:06AM)
Hi to all,

if somebody wants to kill many people he will find a way.
so I don't think that restricting guns can solve that problem alone, but it can make it harder for the person to get to the guns.

if you take not only a look at terrorism/amok, then I would say there is a connection between guns and murders.
take any big city in the U.S. and compare it for example with germany (population over 80millions) and you will see that the murders are much more in the city even there are a lot less people.
I don't say guns are the only reason for that, but I'm sure its a big factor.

just my 2 cents.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2017 11:33AM)
First of all if we take away the word "gun" and use the word "rights" we can remove the heat from the equation and talk about it more easily.

In America we are born with certain rights. These rights many Americans take very seriously no matter what they are.

It is also important to understand that our constitution is set up to protect us from the government. It not only sets up how it works, but it LIMITS it in scope. It tells the government what it is NOT allowed to do to us. So when suddenly someone wants to let them tell us what they CAN do to us, it is not good.

For example imagine a right you take for granted your entire life simply by being lucky enough to be living where you do. Now imagine how you would react if they just chose to take that away for any reason. Not going to go well is it? Same anywhere really. Not too hard to understand.

People who refer to it as a "gun culture" simply do not understand what it is really about. Our government is not designed to be the leviathan it has become. (As a matter of fact it is currently collapsing under it's own weight.) The reason we are The United States of America is simply that each State is supposed to be it's own government and the federal government has only 18 enumerated powers. We have gotten fairly far from this theory.

Our government has a way of creeping incrementalism. The Camel nose under the tent and such. Once the nose is under it isn't long before you have an entire Camel. I don't necessarily agree with what is put forth in this video, I don't necessarily disagree with it but it is an example of what I am talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhEX3rHssJI Forget the hot button content of health care and focus on the method being used to move an agenda forward. The content is not relevant only the process.

My point is "Americans and guns" is more about Americans than guns. I am not trying to argue with any position. If you have a position I respect it and that has nothing to do with my post. I am only pointing out that getting caught up in the "gun" part of "gun rights" and leaving out the "rights" part misses the entire point.

And short of checking every bag every person brings into every room how could one have stopped this guy?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 24, 2017 12:12PM)
@Dannydoyle:

Very nicely laid out and explained.

Everyone understands rights, even those that live in highly regulated or socialistic societies. So, even people with little or no "rights" should understand this better.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 25, 2017 09:38AM)
Every country is sovereign, and owns 100 percent of its own gun violence - so no explanation required.

To equate the Las Vegas shootings with a "rights" issue is a uniquely American conceit, and buy-in from the rest of the world is unlikely.

This is ultimately unimportant though, as American gun rights are only for Americans to concern themselves with, so the opinions of folks from other countries on the subject of American gun rights [b]simply don't matter[/b].
Message: Posted by: sennheiser (Oct 26, 2017 05:49AM)
I never said anything about the "rights", because my only statement was that you can make

[quote]a connection between guns and murders.[/quote]

I don't live in the U.S., so the "gun rights" are not my business.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 26, 2017 12:11PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2017, sennheiser wrote:

I never said anything about the "rights", because my only statement was that you can make
...a connection between guns and murders. [/quote]

Absolutely correct. You can also make a connection between knives, bombs, cars, trucks, poisons, clubs, axes and so on, and murders.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 26, 2017 02:11PM)
As incredible as it may seem, according to the latest news reports that I have seen, Jesus Campos, the security guard and the only direct witness to the event, left the US very shortly after the shooting and went to Mexico. He then returned to the US and appeared on the Ellen DeGeneres show???

We don't know if he is licensed as a security guard or if such licensing is necessary, if he is legally in the US or what? The Sheriff's department will evidently not release any info to the news organizations on this. Yes, Campos was a victim, and the police have to protect victims. But he went on TV. We should be able to get some reports on him.

Further, the hard drive on the perpetrator's laptop is missing??? Yes you heard me right. It's missing????

And what happened to his girlfriend... and how about the second girl he apparently spend time with in Vegas?

Also, the perpetrator's bother was arrested yesterday in LA on porno charges.

And where is the FBI, the lead investigator on this case?

It has been four weeks since the worse mass shooting in US history and we know what?????

Even the Keystone cops were more transparent and efficient than this.

I'm flabbergasted...and disgusted at this point.

I am not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but what is going on here?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 26, 2017 02:33PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

...To equate the Las Vegas shootings with a "rights" issue is a uniquely American conceit, and buy-in from the rest of the world is unlikely...

This is ultimately unimportant though, as American gun rights are only for Americans to concern themselves with, so the opinions of folks from other countries on the subject of American gun rights [b]simply don't matter[/b]. [/quote]

Of course, the "mass shooting" was not equated with a "rights" issue as Bones very well knows. To equate the two is a stretch too far and a clumsy and inappropriate attempt at sarcasm, it that is what is occurring here.

However, Bones is right. What the rest of the world thinks doesn't matter at all - as they bask in their more "enlightened" perfection... :)
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Oct 27, 2017 06:01PM)
You know as a non-american, I find this thread fascinating. I think it gives an excellent look a certain cultural cross-section of a America.

I live beside an American base here in Europe and socialize with many american friends. It's is funny...about half are 100% for keeping their guns, the other half would definitely like to see gun controls. Both side are feverishly about defending their opinions to the point of getting hostile. Yet overall they are mostly really really nice and sane people. All of them. But bring up Trump, health-care or guns....boy are they divided.

As expected most of my artistic leaning freinds are for gun control whereas those whom lean toward the right (Trump?) insist they keep their guns. As expected after the Vegas shooting, guns were a hot topic amongst them in the bars.

America seems a very divided country.

One thing to note. While Sennheiser is not American....his opinion does matter. You see America matters to us and very much to the rest of the world. I was lucky enough to grow up on the American side of Germany. I have some relatives that grew up in the Soviet side....needless to say not as free.

The US is by far the most powerful country in the world and while a lot of people bash it....in reality most of us look up to America. Without the US I think Mr Putin would be no doubt at our doorsteps. America has given us the internet, I wear Levi jeans, drive an American car and we have a Starbucks now in our city where I get a Latte on weekends.

So the world watches in awe towards America...Trump, the Korean missles, and yes, the gun problem.

I really hope you all can work things out. Because a better America is a better world for everyone.

Thanx
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 28, 2017 06:12AM)
One thing which is causing these nuts to go wild is drugs and the Americans take more than anybody. Drugs are the one thing which has changed the world we live more than anything in my lifetime. People are not merely on drug but combinations and then there are illegal drugs as well. Everybody knows how many guns the shooter had but few mention how many drugs he had.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 28, 2017 10:11AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2017, tommy wrote:
....Everybody knows how many guns the shooter had but few mention how many drugs he had. [/quote]

That's not at all accurate tommy.

The first thing done in cases like these is a full and complete toxicology test on the shooter.
They'd be able to identify any drug or substance in his system during his cowardly act, and likely any drug or substance he might have taken weeks earlier.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 28, 2017 11:12AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

The first thing done in cases like these is a full and complete toxicology test on the shooter.[/quote]

That being the case, there is no information, to the best of my knowledge, that has been forthcoming regarding this test.

I would think that would be something that should not be kept secret and divulging if the shooter had drugs in his possession or if drugs were in his system should not affect the investigation.

Once again, this investigation is not very transparent. I hope MGM corp is not hindering or causing information to be concealed or withheld in order to protect their potential liability.

However, I would not bet that was not happening.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Oct 28, 2017 04:17PM)
There are lots of historical investigations that prove conclusively that authorities essentially lied to the public during, and after an investigation.
Thus the concern some folks express.

I would seriously doubt that the LVPD or the FBI is involved in any sort of conspiracy to deceive the public on a case with this kind of profile, and with this level of loss of human life - but it's not impossible.

As Cag noted too, some aspects of the case do cause one to wonder if MGM properties aren't concerned more with protecting their brand than they are with assisting the investigation. That would no doubt land them in court, so there is a mechanism to deal with intentional obfuscation on the part of MGM.

Regardless, it's essentially impossible to influence massive bureaucracies like the FBI and the LVPD beyond noting one has concerns about transparency, forcing us all to wait for further information when they choose to release it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 28, 2017 06:23PM)
Https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_en-GBGB751GB751&biw=1024&bih=690&ei=pRD1WdLQA4qxatf1jKAD&q=U.S.+Leads+the+World+in+Drug+Use&oq=U.S.+Leads+the+World+in+Drug+Use&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i7i30k1.18292.19840.0.20388.2.2.0.0.0.0.203.323.0j1j1.2.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.2.321....0.iw5k5BjbQD8
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2017 07:44PM)
Well obviously nobody had ever been involved in law enforcement. The LAST thing they need is every CSI expert weighing in with an uninformed opinion just because they know every episode title.

Few things hurt investigation more than uninformed public opinion. Uproar for no reason or worse yet the wrong reason.

You are not trained. Wait for the findings.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 28, 2017 08:17PM)
Public records, according to reports, reveal Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock was prescribed the anti-anxiety drug Valium. He may have also been taking an antidepressant. Valium, which is the trade name for Diazepam, is an anti-anxiety medication that is one of a number of drugs classified as a benzodiazepine, nicknamed "Benzo." Others include Xanax, Klonopin and Ativan. These drugs are linked to violent behavior in some patients. Psychiatrist Peter Breggin, author of Medication Madness: The Role of Psychiatric Drugs in Cases of Violence, Suicide and Crime is one of a growing number of health professionals who say these drugs can, in some people, causes such severe personality changes that they can trigger the rage and even insanity. Drugs and guns, it seems to me, are becoming ever more powerful and so it becomes easier for nuts to go off their heads, murder more people, more quickly and so I can only see, on the whole, things getting worse.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Oct 28, 2017 09:55PM)
Ive been following this and what I don't understand is with the amount of cell phones and selfie addicts, I didn't see one video of someone getting shot, one drop of blood or even one bullet hole anywhere on the stage or the walls when I watched the videos of the clean up.... it seems odd with the amount of casualties and the injured... am I the only one that had this observation??
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 29, 2017 09:28AM)
I have not looked at the films or pictures because frankly, I am too sensitive. I mean, just hearing about kids being shot is gut-wrenching enough and I guess it has all been censored, out of respect for the loved ones.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2017 10:39AM)
There are plenty of videos.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 30, 2017 01:52AM)
Cag,

As a fellow Las Vegan, I'm curious exactly what you think is being withheld from the media in this investigation?

The perpetrator was identified (and killed of course) within hours of the shooting. What's left isn't an "investigation" as much as it is a "picking up the pieces" operation.

The security guard left the country - so what? Every news agency on the planet wanted to talk to him. I'd have left town too. The next day he talks to the investigators and then has to go back to his life. A spot on Ellen pays a few bucks so he takes it. The end? Maybe. I don't know. But I also don't see any big mystery in his actions. He's undoubtedly listening to a personal lawyer as well as MGM corporate lawyers tell him what to do. Those 2 groups may not be telling him the same things of course. But I see no big mystery in his actions (or inactions).

The hard drive is missing from his laptop. So what? This is a common tactic amongst mass shooters (Adam Lanza in Newtown did it). If it went missing from a LVMPD evidence locker then I'd say you've got something. The guy removed it and threw it into the trash or a gutter a day or so before the shooting. Why? Who knows?! These people are crazy! But there's no big mystery here. Not knowing the answer isn't the same as having an impenetrable mystery on our hands.

The shooter may or may not have had more than one girlfriend. And?

MGM isn't saying anything - par for the course. What is there to say? Sorry? For what? For renting a room to a nut job that no one anticipated doing this? Could've happened to any casino on the strip. They did nothing wrong and will prevail in any lawsuits that aren't settled for good PR.

At the end of the day this case is over. The perpetrator is dead and we may never know if he had an "acute" motive beyond just being a nut case. Clearly there are still some things the FBI and Metro will want to work out, but there's no pressing need to rush any of this since getting the answer out in 8 weeks isn't any different than getting the answer out in 4 weeks.

Help me see the big holes in the current narrative that you seem to see.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2017 08:41AM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2017, JasonEngland wrote:
Cag,

As a fellow Las Vegan, I'm curious exactly what you think is being withheld from the media in this investigation?

The perpetrator was identified (and killed of course) within hours of the shooting. What's left isn't an "investigation" as much as it is a "picking up the pieces" operation.

The security guard left the country - so what? Every news agency on the planet wanted to talk to him. I'd have left town too. The next day he talks to the investigators and then has to go back to his life. A spot on Ellen pays a few bucks so he takes it. The end? Maybe. I don't know. But I also don't see any big mystery in his actions. He's undoubtedly listening to a personal lawyer as well as MGM corporate lawyers tell him what to do. Those 2 groups may not be telling him the same things of course. But I see no big mystery in his actions (or inactions).

The hard drive is missing from his laptop. So what? This is a common tactic amongst mass shooters (Adam Lanza in Newtown did it). If it went missing from a LVMPD evidence locker then I'd say you've got something. The guy removed it and threw it into the trash or a gutter a day or so before the shooting. Why? Who knows?! These people are crazy! But there's no big mystery here. Not knowing the answer isn't the same as having an impenetrable mystery on our hands.

The shooter may or may not have had more than one girlfriend. And?

MGM isn't saying anything - par for the course. What is there to say? Sorry? For what? For renting a room to a nut job that no one anticipated doing this? Could've happened to any casino on the strip. They did nothing wrong and will prevail in any lawsuits that aren't settled for good PR.

At the end of the day this case is over. The perpetrator is dead and we may never know if he had an "acute" motive beyond just being a nut case. Clearly there are still some things the FBI and Metro will want to work out, but there's no pressing need to rush any of this since getting the answer out in 8 weeks isn't any different than getting the answer out in 4 weeks.

Help me see the big holes in the current narrative that you seem to see.

Jason [/quote]

Thank you for summing up so well and eloquent. Exactly the point sir.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2017 12:45PM)
Thank you for proving my point about untainted people who think they know.

The problem is you have to "imagine" what would happen. Those who investigate KNOW and don't have time to educate every conspiracy theorist who binge watches Law and Order.

By the way a .22 will not easily penetrate a skull from 6 feet much less a hundred yards much less the distance we are talking about. He was 320 feet up and about 1,000 feet away. So you know anything about ballistics, trigonometry, or anything that would help you understand what happens to the projectile over that distance? My guess from your post is no.

Do you know what sort of load he was shooting? What velocity each round was moving at? Because to draw your conclusions that is necessary information to have. What kind of rounds did he fire?

Now think of a ricochet. From that distance and a ricochet it is easy to imagine a person surviving had trauma because the temporary cavity won't be so big. (Do you even know what that is? My guess is no so here is a description. https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/terminal-ballistics.)

Being a ballistics expert is something you have to spend years in study, not watching TV and reading conspiracy theory news articles.

THIS is why investigations should be done by experts. I am not even close to one but at least having been a cop I understand the need to let the experts do their job and just wait for findings.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 30, 2017 12:47PM)
@iamslow,


Hey buddy, Not sure that, as an European far from LV, I understand what's going on here. What's the problem exactly?

You doubt about the number of victims? You think there was more than one shooter? You believe there is something (but what?) hidden by the authorities?

About the last point, unfortunately, it seems that it's a long tradition in USA. When I see that it took 54 years to release a few files from Kennedy assassination...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2017 01:38PM)
Https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/terminal-ballistics

That link works.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 30, 2017 07:55PM)
I was about to ask that.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Oct 31, 2017 03:11AM)
[quote]On Oct 30, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:
For folks that don't get [i]"shot in the head"[/i] every day - there is the distinct possibility that getting grazed across the back of the head might result in your telling whoever seemed interested that you'd been [i]"shot in the head"[/i].
[/quote]


This is exactly what I thought as I was watching this. Did this guy take a round full on to the back of the head? Doubtful. Could he have caught a ricochet or a round that just nicked him through the skin on the back of his head? Absolutely.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 31, 2017 08:43AM)
Those who are satisfied with the investigation to date on his horrific shooting and the amount of information that has been forthcoming, I am happy for them. However, many people are not. This is not meant to besmirch the authorities or their handling the case but rather to voice question.

We are all uninformed because we are not directly involved in the investigation, are not in possession of the evidence nor qualified to voice anything other than opinion. However, to voice opinion is the right of every American citizen. Many people died to ensure that right. It keeps our appointed public servants on their toes.

To say that the information has been somewhat confusing and sparse is certainly fair and reasonable for us to ask. After all, we are not subjects of a despot nor do we have to kneel to a king. We are free citizens who are allowed to question and hold government accountable. That doesn't mean we don't support law enforcement nor do we look to hinder their investigation. What it [i]does[/i] mean is we can question ALL political servants, every last one of them, rightly or wrongly at any time. PERIOD!

Hopefully the FBI has something to add to this situation when their report eventually comes out. It might prove to be quite interesting, then again maybe not. We'll see.

Finally, it is very important to note that I have just received my honorary CSI card and mail-order investigator diploma and am therefore qualified and authorized to make cutting edge and perceptive comments on this case from time to time.

So...stay tuned...possibly the best is yet to come. :cool:
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 31, 2017 10:17AM)
It seems a pretty open and shut case to me, except for the motive. I mean, this fellow did not seem to be a nut before the act, but quite contrary and the killing seems very cold cool and calculated. It seems strange to me as if there is something we do not know about him.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 11:21AM)
By the way, as tommy notes it, are there some news about the shooter motives? We don't have many information here. You don't kill 58 people without any reason, even when you are a wacko.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2017 12:48PM)
It is odd to want to apply reason to anyone who would do such a thing. What reason would matter and why?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 01:29PM)
Someone kills 58 and injures hundreds and you don't care about his motives? Maybe, knowing his reasons may help to prevent another massacre in a future, don't you think so?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2017 02:55PM)
[quote]On Oct 31, 2017, AMcD wrote:
Someone kills 58 and injures hundreds and you don't care about his motives? Maybe, knowing his reasons may help to prevent another massacre in a future, don't you think so? [/quote]

How so? I mean exactly how does knowing that he thought something outrageous help prevent another nut from being a nut?

No I don't think for a second knowing that John Hinkley Jr. wanted to impress Jodie Foster helps us stop the next guy at all.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 03:05PM)
Because some doctors, psychiatrists, specialists, may rely on such experiences and background for instance.

Knowing how he proceeded may help to improve security schemes in hotels, casinos.

Knowing how he set up his massacre may help to rise some flags with some weapons dealers, etc.

Maybe he had mental problems? Maybe some expert could use his behaviour for preventing another possible case? It would help to improve tests in some hospitals?

You're wrong with you very particular case with Hinkley. In the last letter he wrote to Miss Foster, it's obvious he was about to do something bad.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 31, 2017 03:59PM)
AMcD raises some very good points in his post of Oct. 31, 2017 1:05pm above.

The more knowledge one can accumulate the better the possibility of understanding and perhaps preventing or reducing such occurrences in the future. It certainly can't hurt - it can't hurt to acquire knowledge and apply human reason to the situation and it just might help. The fact that it just [i]might[/i] help is enough for me.

The security procedures of the hotel may have made a difference. I think when the full report is forthcoming, there will be some changes made in hotel security. Red flags to alert gun dealers may make a difference also, and may very well have done so in this instance. We don't know.

The human experience is a quest for knowledge and that quest has risen us up from the mud and taken us out of the caves. It has enabled us to travel to the moon and the depths of the oceans and presumable eventually maybe to the stars. To simply say he was a nut case and nothing could have been done and let it go at that irritates and insults every rational and human bone in my body. That may be the case but it needs to be substantiated if so.

No, none of these things mentioned by AMcD above may make a difference in this case - but then again, I would think they could or might have. To not pursue this line of preventive understanding and thought, and more, to me would be ignorant and absurd.

Hopefully the FBI and Metro will come out with a complete report in the near future and then we will more intelligently have something to discuss.

However, having heard Steve Wynn discuss the security measures he has implemented in his hotels leads me to conclude the security at the Mandalay Bay was somewhat lax and not responsive to the more dangerous modern world we live in. I would have to venture that this probably could have been almost impossible to accomplish had the killer been at one of Steve Wynn's Vegas hotels.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2017 06:41PM)
It certainly can't hurt when EXPERTS do such things I agree. When the people who think they know simply because they have an internet connection want to be as informed as the authorities then it is an issue.

How exactly were they "lax" in your mind? Seriously I want to know. Do you stop everyone who brings in luggage and search it? We live in a free society. To say that security was "lax" is a pretty serious charge and one that should be backed up. What EXACTLY was "lax" about the security at the hotel in your mind?

What is irritating is the armchair psychologists who think that they can prevent or reduce occurrence of horrible events if only THEY have information. How ludicrous. Thinking you know because of what you read on the internet is what is absurd.

But we live in the age of everyone being an expert. So there ya go. This very board is proof of that.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 07:12PM)
So, for you, authorities are everything, know everything, are fair, can be trusted, etc.? And someone who hasn't got a degree or diploma is an idiot and has not the right to express a true advice, or simply can't? That's it? Just to be sure, you're a civil servant right? Only a civil servant can think that way.

What about your qualifications to judge this board by the way? You're a certified psychiatrist?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2017 07:19PM)
I am saying that without being trained you have no valid opinion about ballistics. It is simple. Not that one is an idiot, only that one can not make judgments about things like science without proper training. Would you go to a doctor who did not posess a degree in what ailed you? I would not personally. Your mileage may vary. And no I am not a civil servant. That life is long past me. Former civil servant, current performer. So no not only a civil servant can think that way.

As for my judging the board who did that? This board has a lot of internet experts. Lots of those who read about the life of a performer or a gambler and then somehow think they actually know. That is not a judgment that one needs a degree, it is an observation that is being made. Everyone is an expert. Not a psychological diagnosis, a simple observation of behavior.

You can have an opinion about anything you like. You are free to express that opinion in any way you like as far as I am concerned. You are not entitled for that opinion to be correct. It is simple. Is that really such a strange position to take?
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 09:38PM)
Ballistics? I'm not talking about ballistics, I'm talking about things in general.

Yes, for very accurate things, you need a degree, to have a long training, a long background. But life is not made of surgeons, satellites programmers or ballistics experts only. As long as you have the brains to be objective, as long as you can elaborate an opinion, you can talk about many things, even if you have no former training about those things! I'd like to remind you that many geniuses had 0 degree, 0 diploma... and that many degrees people get nowadays are worth approximately zilch.

About trusting authorities, allow me to keep my distances. Here's a very known example. In France, my former country, when Chernobyl plant exploded in 1986, the French authorities said that nobody should worry, the radioactive clouds could not harm anyone because, like a miracle, they didn't cross our borders. Apparently, the clouds stopped right before France borders! Isn't it nice? Yet, we now know that it was a lie and that thousands of people were affected one way or another (cancers mainly). Yeah, always trust your authorities.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 31, 2017 10:11PM)
Ok what alternative is there? Loony conspiracy theories? Sure go that route.

So many great discoveries were made by people with no training. You're right. I wonder why science exists at all? Good point.

If you want to never trust scientists or authorities because they have lied in the past this is completely your prerogative. You are free to believe whatever you wish and I am not here to talk you out of it. There are plenty of examples of Government cover ups and science being wrong and non trained people being brilliant and making discoveries.

But as far as odds go I would bet on trained scientists. But that is me. You are free to believe what you like and live how you like. That is what rocks about free society. I respect that.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 31, 2017 10:44PM)
I don't claim nor search for an alternative, I'm simply debating.

I didn't say that one should NEVER trust scientists, authorities, experts, etc. I didn't say that science is useless or something (me saying that? Do you know who I am?). You are the one who says that, I didn't.

In a perfect world, where nobody would be obsessed by money and power, yes, I would give more credit to experts or politicians. But, unfortunately, I don't live in such a world, therefore I keep my eyes opened. Generally speaking, I trust surgeons or any high level and high skilled people. Most of them, certainly not all of them. There are crooks everywhere. I respect diplomas, degrees, but not all of them. See, I have some myself, but when I see 25 years old guys supposedly clever because they have 10 very expensive and high level qualifications hardly able to write 25 words without 5 mistakes, I strongly doubt we have the SAME level. Read everyday news and you'll see bad people everywhere, in all professions, coming from all social classes. The world is not white or back my friend.

No you're not automatically clever because you have a degree, and no you're not an idiot because you haven't got any. You're not an expert because your diploma says so either. It's more complicated than that! If it was so easy, so crystal clear, why experts rarely agree?

If you intend to debate with me in the future, please, stop putting words in my mouth and don't read more than I write. I respect anybody's opinion as long as he sets out his argument. I like debating, but with mutual respect.

Cordially.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 1, 2017 07:48AM)
Everyone is entitled to have and give his or her opinion on this BB. EVERYONE. And he or she is entitled to do so without being subject to condemnation or ridicule for giving that opinion.

If someone disagrees with someone else, simply make the case. To criticize with backhanded sarcastic insults serves no purpose and this thread will simply end up getting deleted. Even worse, many people who have finally started to post will stop giving opinions and probably leave the BB.

No one has absolute knowledge or understanding, nor does anyone have to be a specialist or expert on a specific subject to post here. Even with experts, it is still opinion that other experts will often disagree with.

So please, let's lighten up. In the scheme of things, in one year no one will even remember this thread or who posted what.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 1, 2017 07:55AM)
It cuts both ways it seems me. I mean, let us consider the roles the various experts played leading up to this mass murder. We have gun experts selling powerful weapons and admonitions to this man on a grand scale, we have medical experts dealing with man and prescribing him mind-bending drugs, experts in security in the casino not noticing anything unusual, the police and intelligence experts who did not seem to be aware of his at all despite the fact that he throwing millions of dollars around. The experts are the men that will not be blamed for anything - or ist nothing. Do these experts have blood on their hands?
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 1, 2017 08:51AM)
The following bit of news from Fox is interesting, in that it leans to supporting what Cag is saying in this thread.
The authorities would have had this information in hand on the night of the shooting?
It's also the kind of thing that fosters conspiracy theorists to go wild, as it does appear to be something that could have been reported by police much earlier than today (Nov 1st).


[i]"A Las Vegas police officer accidentally fired his gun in Stephen Paddock’s suite the night of the mass shooting, the department’s sheriff said Monday, breaking more than two weeks of silence and confirming for the first time that an officer fired his weapon during the Oct. 1 incident.

Sheriff Joe Lombardo said the gun went off after the officers made entry to the room, but the rounds were not fired in the room where Paddock was found dead........."[/i]
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Nov 1, 2017 09:09AM)
@Danny

I don't have to apologize and I don't have to retract anything. Simply because I was asking you questions, which means that I wanted you to clarify some points that I possibly didn't get well while reading you. Asking questions is not putting words in someone's mouth.

But I'd agree that, because my poor command of the English language and coming from a VERY different culture than yours, it's likely that, at times, you may feel offended or, at the very least, you don't understand my points clearly. If you read me here for years, you know that I'm the last one who would offend anyone, therefore, rest assured that is has never been my intention (in case you think so...).

What about getting back to the point? I think we have many interesting questions here? How far can we trust authorities? How far can we trust experts? tommy make some relevant points I think.

Again, I'm not talking about some dude watching 2 videos on youtube and seeing conspiracy everywhere or believing he's got it because he read 3 pages on the web making him an expert. I'd like you to put the debate on a higher level.

I think you will agree that greed, cupidity or obsession of power turn some people minds upside down. And even people with great brains, who have terrific diplomas, degrees can be like that. Therefore, there is always the possibility that masses are mislead. Hey, just a recent example. Here in UK, we had recently the Brexit vote, should UK leave the European Union? I can tell you, Danny, that you would not believe all the crap we had on TV! Experts following specialists explaining this and that, they knew, blablabla. It turns out that all they said is 100% ******** and we are now facing an economic disaster. People have been deceived by populists, experts, professionals, politicians, etc.

Why experts rarely agree? Put 5 experts on a TV debate, and you'll get 5 different figures and 5 different opinions. Should we rely their diplomas? You know perfectly that it's NOT a criterion. Some people cheat in order to get their degree, some people just had the money for getting it. And because you have a diploma means that day D at time T, you could answer some questions, nothing more. It doesn't give you experience, background. It doesn't prove that you are intelligent. At all. Being clever is something different. It's being able to sort things out, to infer, to invent, to create, etc. And yes, many geniuses had no diploma at all. We were talking about science, I might be wrong in one case or two, I'm writing from memory here, but if my memory serves well, Da Vinci, Franklin, Darwin, Edison, etc. had no science degree. It doesn't hurt to have one, but you can be successfull without one either. If you are clever.

If authorities and experts were perfect, we would never have scandals, corruption, plots, misery, injustice or inequality. I'd agree with you that, in most cases, surely a very high percentage, we can trust the State but, for the reasons exposed above, we need to stay attentive. And that's why we need people questioning things or people. But yes, clever people, not instagram or twitter specialists. I agree.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 1, 2017 09:43AM)
[quote]On Oct 31, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
Those who are satisfied with the investigation to date on his horrific shooting and the amount of information that has been forthcoming, I am happy for them. However, many people are not. This is not meant to besmirch the authorities or their handling the case but rather to voice question.

We are all uninformed because we are not directly involved in the investigation, are not in possession of the evidence nor qualified to voice anything other than opinion. However, to voice opinion is the right of every American citizen. Many people died to ensure that right. It keeps our appointed public servants on their toes.

To say that the information has been somewhat confusing and sparse is certainly fair and reasonable for us to ask. After all, we are not subjects of a despot nor do we have to kneel to a king. We are free citizens who are allowed to question and hold government accountable. That doesn't mean we don't support law enforcement nor do we look to hinder their investigation. What it [i]does[/i] mean is we can question ALL political servants, every last one of them, rightly or wrongly at any time. PERIOD!

Hopefully the FBI has something to add to this situation when their report eventually comes out. It might prove to be quite interesting, then again maybe not. We'll see.

Finally, it is very important to note that I have just received my honorary CSI card and mail-order investigator diploma and am therefore qualified and authorized to make cutting edge and perceptive comments on this case from time to time.

So...stay tuned...possibly the best is yet to come. :cool: [/quote]


Cag,

I asked you what information you thought was lacking. You responded with this instead of clarifying. Was this directed at me and my post or at others here? If directed at me, why? I thought my post was fairly non-confrontational and fair.

I'll rephrase:

Imagine that LVMPD and the FBI will answer (truthfully and completely) 5 questions about this case. Assuming they know the answers of course. If they don't know, they'll answer, "We don't know."

What are the top 5 questions that you feel haven't been answered?

Jason
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 1, 2017 02:56PM)
[quote]On Nov 1, 2017, JasonEngland wrote:

Cag,

I asked you what information you thought was lacking. You responded with this instead of clarifying. Was this directed at me and my post or at others here? If directed at me, why? I thought my post was fairly non-confrontational and fair.[/quote]

My post was not directed at you and your questions were fair and reasonable. I certainly have nothing against you personally except perhaps that you are a magician and I dislike [i]everyone[/i] on general principles. But aside from that, the answer is no. :rolleyes:

I have no inside information or contacts on this case, all I "know" is what the news media and the sheriff have conveyed on TV.

Until the facts of the case are out, most of us are posting in the dark and lack sufficient information and substantive evidence to come to any definitive conclusions. However, there are some observations that can be made that I found to be irritating to me and I believe the authorities appear to not be very forthcoming with information. Maybe that is normal, maybe not. (Jason, you can extrapolate your questions from the following. I can't do all the work here.) :hmm:

I was concerned that the questioning of the bother and girlfriend was not very revealing. Little appeared to be said about that and I don't know how far the authorities went into those interviews because they did not elaborate. I would think that saying they both knew little or nothing of substance strains credulity. Those statements may be true and then again maybe not. The fact that it is part of an ongoing investigation and they can't divulge further information is okay but to simply say they knew nothing strains credibility. There was evidently a second girlfriend that he stayed with at the resort, there was no information regarding her and I think a more complete statement could have been made regarding that. Once again, little clarification.

The two houses he owned were searched and were not condoned off and secured. They were subsequently vandalized to a certain degree [i]during the investigation.[/i] That irritated me because if that is so, it seems sloppy on the part of the police. I would think the houses would be secured until after the investigation but as a layman I don't know that for a fact. But to find out they were vandalized from the news media is disconcerting. I would have kept the houses secured even if nothing was there. It just seems like something like that should be done but of course I am not an investigator and don't know the intimate details.

The timeline was changed three times. Maybe that is normal in investigations but maybe the divulging of information could have been handled better. It tends to question the competence of the authorities.

How about the toxicology reports on the shooter? Was there anything in his system that could account for his insane actions, or was he just simply insane...period...end of story, and if so, according to whom. Who was the doctor that issued prescriptions for the shooters medication, if any? If so, does the doctor have any input on the shooters frame of mind?

In the greatest mass shooting in US history. The [i]one and only prime witness[/i] to the shooting left the country and traveled to Mexico, after being shot in the leg by the shooter and was there for 2 or 3 days. I don't know if that would be normal operating procedure but what if his testimony was need further and he refused to come back?

He was not allowed to be interviewed by anyone and cancelled the five interviews he had scheduled. MGM evidently sequestered him which I can understand as he is still their employee. The only interview he could have was with Ellen DeGeneres and that was obviously a staged interview controlled by MGM. She built him up and asked "puff" questions.

Of course, I was affected somewhat by Steve Wynn's excellent TV interview by Chris Wallace which was quite revealing. Wynn went into some detail as to the precautions he started two years ago at his hotels, at a cost of millions of dollars, to protect his guests and his corporation against these type attacks. The training of his [i]entire[/i] staff (that means everyone), as to what to be alert for and what to do if certain red flags come up was enlightening. Not allowing a guest to prevent access to his room for more than 24 hours is something they would investigate if only to see if the guest was okay. The screening of luggage going to the rooms. Security cameras in the hallway and many other precautions that were not evasive to the guests but worthwhile procedures, none of which where implemented by Mandalay Bay.

Keep in mind the shooter was in his rooms evidently for three days and no one was allowed in, not even housekeeping. Duh...

Not securing the concert site better - these people were totally unprotected and with all the terror attacks in the US and world, no precautions seem to have been taken. It seems like one could have driven three tractor trailers to mow down the concert crowd. This leads me to conclude that MGM Corp. is very worried about their liability, and well they should be.

My main concern is, are the authorities being extra careful and not releasing very much information purposely to help protect MGM - a very powerful and influential force in Las Vegas. Keep in mind, the sheriff is an elected official. I am not besmirching the sheriff, but he could be under tremendous pressure.

Of course, I could be 100% wrong about all of this. Maybe I have just been around too long and seen too much...the shenanigans of elected official, the corruption in our nation's capital, the pay for play games of politicians and officials at all levels, and on and on. Maybe it is just that the the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department's public relations is not very good. I don't know...but I wonder...who does?

However, when the reports are finally released perhaps all my concerns will be laid to rest and I will be just be another silly guy with an over-active imagination.

Then again...
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 2, 2017 03:45PM)
People in hotels often put a “Do not disturb sign” on their door and for a reasonably amount of time it would cause no suspicion but it would if it went on for some time because, as Cag said the man might have has a heart attack or something. I think Cag has a point but not a good one and when making an argument it is best to make good points only: strong points, as opposed to weak ones.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2017 09:00AM)
I do think that checking on rooms in which the guest has not allowed housekeeping or anyone else entry to clean or at least check after 24 hours [i]might[/i] have made a difference in the LV shooting. We don't know nor does anyone else. However, I would think it would have been almost impossible for the shooter to accumulate and hide the large stash of weapons and ammo he had in his room for 5 days if that were the case.

However, tommy is right. There is no one security measure that will prevent a mass shooting like this and this one measure, as a stand-alone measure, by itself is weak. It would seem to me that a compilation of a number of measures in concert, i.e., continual non-evasive luggage checking, hallway cameras, trained housekeeping personnel, checking on guest well-being and their rooms after 24 hours, and other precautions could certainly make it more difficult to accomplish a shooting like this. But in a free society, you cannot put enough restrictions on people to completely stop this from occurring or you would no longer have a free society.

When the reports come out eventually, and the amount of information is [i]very[/i] sparse on this shooting, that should give a clearer picture of exactly what happened and perhaps some more intelligent measures will be put in place.

But stopping something like this - almost impossible to do. Reducing the probabilities or the number of occurrences might be more feasible. Knives, cars, trucks, home-made bombs, guns... you name it. Where there is a will, there seems to be a way to accomplish these terrible killings.

Interesting aside. My daughter and granddaughter went trick or treating on Halloween in one of the most exclusive and well protected communities on Red Rock Canyon in Vegas. This is a gated community with [i]armed[/i] and [i]trained[/i] security guards, clearly identified with badges and uniforms. They [i]all[/i] had guns. The security was not composed of retirees or part timers, they were full-time trained pros.

One had to park outside the gates of the community and there were complimentary golf cards with drivers to take invitees to the guest homes they were visiting. One could walk around inside the community in safety as the guards were present to ensure that safe experience. Seems like many of the elite and very wealthy in Vegas (and elsewhere) know how to protect themselves and take the necessary steps to do so. It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 3, 2017 01:03PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in. [/quote]

It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.
I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted.

International and domestic terrorism only works if people "change" how they would otherwise live their lives. That's what terrorism is all about.

I choose to enjoy my life, and remain unbowed on all fronts to any form of terrorism.
If my time were to come as a result of something like happened in Las Vegas, I'd die happy that I had chosen to live my life as if terrorists were no more important than an amoeba in a petri dish.

YMMV, and I would imagine for lots of folks, that mileage does indeed vary widely.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 3, 2017 01:32PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
It is very sad these type precautions have to be taken, but it seems like that is the new world we live in. [/quote]

It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.
I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted.

International and domestic terrorism only works if people "change" how they would otherwise live their lives. That's what terrorism is all about.

I choose to enjoy my life, and remain unbowed on all fronts to any form of terrorism.
If my time were to come as a result of something like happened in Las Vegas, I'd die happy that I had chosen to live my life as if terrorists were no more important than an amoeba in a petri dish.

YMMV, and I would imagine for lots of folks, that mileage does indeed vary widely. [/quote]

This is the way I look at it.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2017 02:59PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

It's not any kind of "new" world that I live in.

I, (like most people) live in a regular house in a normal neighborhood, without armed guards, without gates, and where I spend a great deal of my time relaxed, and not worrying about being shot or assaulted. [/quote]

I agree Bones. I live the same way as you and have no reasons to change. However, my post above refers to a community with extremely wealthy people and those with high profile public images. I would think they would be more concerned with kidnappings for ransom and robberies rather than terrorist attacks. Evidently they choose to take the extra precautions. I don't know, maybe for them it is the wise thing to do.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 3, 2017 03:24PM)
What I don’t understand is how, in this information age, a man can buy this amount guns and ammo and these sort of powrful guns, without the cops being notified and investigating it.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 3, 2017 06:14PM)
An interview with the Sheriff today seems to lead to two previously unexplored (at least in detail) avenues.

First is that he had apparently lost a lot of his wealth in the year or two previous to his horrendous attack.
The Sheriff isn't saying how much money he lost (or if he lost it all, or close to all) - but I can see an already unhinged guy who fancied himself a professional gambler going ballistic if he lost a substantial portion of his bankroll.

Second bit of information I hadn't heard before, and in many ways speaks volumes more than the note above about possibly losing a sizable portion of his nut. And that second bit of info from the Sheriff was that he had suffered from repeated bouts of depression. The Sheriff doesn't say it in the interview, but one presumes the reason the authorities know about the depression is because of his medication record in dealing with that depression.

So you start to get a picture of an egocentric, depressed, medicated, gun obsessed gambler who may (or may not) have lost a sizable portion of his nut.
I could see the above as the start down a road that ultimately completely warped his mind, such that he might consider unleashing some sort of horror upon Las Vegas.

Ultimately though, I think it's difficult (if not impossible) for sane people to even begin to understand how even a situation like the above could lead to mass murder.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 3, 2017 08:39PM)
Yes, his drug taking and depression and gambling losses have already been widely reported. Some places said he was losing half a million a year on the poker machines - which ought to be banned and in fact, all legal gambling ought to be banned because it causes nothing but misery.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2017 09:38PM)
Seems like a more understandable picture about this man is taking shape. Hopefully over time further elaboration will eliminate much of the initial confusion.

Still, what he did is probably something that cannot be fully understood, if indeed something so evil and deranged can ever be understood.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 4, 2017 12:02AM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, Mr. Bones wrote:

Ultimately though, I think it's difficult (if not impossible) for sane people to even begin to understand how even a situation like the above could lead to mass murder. [/quote]
[quote]On Oct 31, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It is odd to want to apply reason to anyone who would do such a thing. What reason would matter and why? [/quote]

This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. Several times. I agree completely.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 4, 2017 02:32AM)
Actually, magicians ought to be able to understand madness because it is a form of illusion, an illusion being a distortion of the truth. If one stands at one end of a long table the far end appears smaller than it really is, which an illusion caused by distance. By the same token, when a man is on drugs, drunk or mad, his mind is somewhat away from reality, which causes a distortion of truth, an illusion. In short, he is then not seeing things as they actually are. Come to think of it, killing people at a distance is not so hard, psychologically speaking, as doing so close up: from a high place people can look like ants.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 4, 2017 09:59AM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2017, tommy wrote:

Actually, magicians ought to be able to understand madness because it is a form of illusion, an illusion being a distortion of the truth. [/quote]

Since this is madness, isn't it more a form of [i]delusion[/i] rather than illusion?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 4, 2017 04:24PM)
It could be. A delusion is a complete lie rather than a distortion of the truth. In short, you would have to be completely out of your mind to be delusional.

The intelligence services use illusions, in the sense that their stories will contain an element of truth, rather than be complete lies, to give their stories plausible deniability you see.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 4, 2017 05:33PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2017, tommy wrote:

What I don't understand is how, in this information age, a man can buy this amount guns and ammo and these sort of powerful guns, without the cops being notified and investigating it. [/quote]

This comes up repeatedly and there appears to be no satisfactory answer to achieve a meeting of the minds. I'm sure it is incomprehensible for many who are not native-born Americans and not steeped in the history of the US why so many of us own and possess guns and intend to keep them.

Although we share much in common with our friends in other countries, the USA and its constitutional/political philosophy is not the same as that of England, France, Australia, Canada, and so on, nor is its history the same. Keep in mind, the US was born of a [i]violent[/i] revolution against the British Crown (King George), and much of the country was unexplored and hostile at that time.

The people who were tragically mowed down by a vehicle recently in NYC, and prior to that by vehicle in France and England (and I don't mean to make light of this), died the same as if they were shot, but shooting someone has a more horrific connotation or "feel," especially for those born and raised outside the USA. However, what can be more horrific than mowing down large groups of people with cars or trucks or using bombs, explosives, suicide vests, etc., much of which is homemade? It is all pretty much unimaginable to most of us.

Gun dealers are in business to make money and their business is legal. There are no federal registration requirements for owning most firearms, nor is there a limit as to the amount purchased. And when people wish to collect guns, they usually only buy one or two at a time. Quite frankly, even if such registration existed, there no doubt would be ways to get around it. I believe the shooter in this case bought his weapons over a period of time although I am not absolutely certain of that.

Gun dealers are not required to notify federal authorities of legal gun purchases in any amount as far as I know.

And that is just the way it is.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 4, 2017 07:22PM)
No, it is not incomprehensible for me to get gun ownership at all, it is the amount that is the question. What is incomprehensible is why the cops are not notified that somebody is buying enough guns to start a war. Would it not be sensible to set up an office, with a computer linked to gun dealers, so that the dealers can log the amount somebody or some nut is buying?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 4, 2017 09:28PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
No, it is not incomprehensible for me to get gun ownership at all, it is the amount that is the question. What is incomprehensible is why the cops are not notified that somebody is buying enough guns to start a war. Would it not be sensible to set up an office, with a computer linked to gun dealers, so that the dealers can log the amount somebody or some nut is buying? [/quote]

Perhaps, but I don't believe it would be lawful unless Congress enacted a law to do so. Even then, it might be struck down by the courts as unconstitutional and a violation of the second amendment. Of course, I am not an attorney steeped in the law but that would be my first thought on this.

My second thought would be it would have prevented nothing. He would only need one or two guns, not 10 or more, with plenty of ammunition clips, to do the same damage. Additionally, there are many people who have a fairly large collection of weapons and 99% of them harm no one.

Even if it were legal to notify the police, what could they do? They can't confiscate the weapons and legally I don't even think the owner of the weapons would even have to talk to the police if they knocked on his door to inquire. They certainly could not enter his house without legal justification.

And there are other ways that the killer could have inflicted great harm even without guns. As I recall, on one of the news reports it stated the people were basically trapped in the enclosure because there was one entrance and one exit, the others were closed or blocked off by security. At least that is what the report stated.
Message: Posted by: JasonEngland (Nov 5, 2017 01:47AM)
[quote]On Nov 1, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:

My post was not directed at you and your questions were fair and reasonable. [/quote]


Cool. Just checking. I thought your "questions" were all fair and reasonable as well. I suspect that LE knows the answer to a few of them, but perhaps aren't saying for reasons regarding legal tactics/maneuvering.

Jason
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2017 01:01AM)
The reason that most investigations are not transparent during them is that they are fluid. They take on a life of their own. Look at what happened to Richard Jewel after the Olympic bombings in Atlanta. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell

Investigation is not a straight line and can have many nuances that if you are not familiar with what is going on 100% can lead you to wrong conclusions. Even if you take away the fact that you don't want people being investigated to know, (Which should be fairly obvious.) the lives of people can be ruined simply by being a "person of interest". This is one very serious component of doing investigations.

So I do not think that the public's "need to know" supersedes the right of people to not be accused of crimes they may have not committed. Most simply want to know, not need to know.
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Nov 6, 2017 12:51PM)
Sadly once again, there is another mass shooting. This time in Texas.

The US President says "the shooting is a Mental Health problem, not a gun problem"

Well using that logic, Kim Jong-un's testing and firing Nuclear missles is not a Nuclear arms problem...but rather a mental health problem, Get Kim some mental health therapy.

.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 6, 2017 02:38PM)
@Zauberman:

Do you really think both situations are the same?

On the one hand we have a brutal communist dictator who wants to become a nuclear power and who hates the US. On the other hand, we have very disturbed individual who was mentally disturbed and out of control.

Down through history we have had many "leaders" of countries that have engaged in mass carnage. Were they all disturbed or evil or did they simply have a different believe system and agenda that made sense to them?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 6, 2017 04:08PM)
@Zauberman:

I should add we probably don't want to get too far off the original subject of this thread. Getting into philosophical and political discussion and going off on a tangent is probably not pertinent to this thread.

Besides that [i]The Gambling Spot[/i] has been designated a nuclear free zone.
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Nov 6, 2017 04:45PM)
[quote]On Nov 6, 2017, Cagliostro wrote:
@Zauberman:

Besides that [i]The Gambling Spot[/i] has been designated a nuclear free zone. [/quote]

Cleverly put. Actually made me chuckle. I Concur, The Gambling Spot shall remain nuclear-free. :-D
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 5, 2017 04:16PM)
Can someone from LV comment this?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/04/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-survive-police
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 5, 2017 04:43PM)
Apparently Tucker Carlson of Fox News is in Las Vegas today (Tues. 12/5), to do some investigative reporting on this tragic event. I will watch his news report tonight to see if he has any further comments or insights on this occurrence.

Tucker has previously had an ex-FBI agent and also and ex-Metro detective on his show, on a couple of occasions, both of whom felt that more information should have been forthcoming at this point. Evidently the FBI is really in charge or responsible for the investigation, with cooperation from Metro. In fact, the ex-detective from Metro said that Metro Homicide, which usually handles a case like this, was incensed and outraged that it was taken out of their hands and delegated to another group within Metro.

Also, the current discussion of apparent shenanigans within the FBI is causing some to question their "above politics" policy.

Additionally, a couple of attorneys who are involved in this case have stated that they have been pretty much stonewalled by MGM Corp. They are conducting their own separate investigations regarding liability of MGM.

I don't mean to diminish this horrific event by any means, but this is not the worst case of mass carnage of US citizens to have occurred. The worst was the massacre of men, woman and children by the US government in Waco Texas, directed by Attorney General Janet Reno under color of law. That of course was pretty much swept under the carpet and I don't think anyone was held accountable.

I hope this investigation is not swept under the carpet also.

Let's see if some further light is shed on this situation in the next day or so.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Dec 6, 2017 10:36PM)
[quote]On Dec 5, 2017, AMcD wrote:
Can someone from LV comment this?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/04/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-survive-police [/quote]
I'm not from Las Vegas Arnold, but I hope my comment is relevant to your link :) ... the Sheriff in this article seems more than a bit silly, in that there is actually [b]no reason whatsoever[/b] (in the absence of any hard evidence) to presume that the a-hole shooter had [i]any help from anybody[/i].

If I was guessing, I'd guess that the Sheriff was terribly choked that he wasn't really involved in the investigation any longer, and this was his way of re-inserting himself into the narrative.

In short, the Sheriff seems like an idiot.

But I will agree with Cag that it seems that the case has been somewhat withdrawn from the public eye intentionally.
That this will be resolved with an eventual detailed release of information related to the case from the FBI and the local and state officials who are investigating [i]doesn't at all[/i] seem to be a "sure thing" at this point in time.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Dec 6, 2017 10:58PM)
Thanks to the both of you!

This article was so... weird.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Dec 7, 2017 12:51PM)
Did not get much of additionally information from the Tucker Carlson TV program. He had an attorney for some of the victims, and Doug Poppa, a former police officer and casino security expert on the program.

The attorney said that MGM corporation basically has hunkered down on this shooting and their attorneys and high-level corp. executives will not release any information, which probably is understandable as their liability is no doubt huge at this point. One of their corporate executives signed the permit for the event so they are directly involved.

The attorney for the victims currently has a subpoena to obtain the information she needs from MGM for her pending liability suit.

Poppa has written numerous articles about the case and said that it has been virtually impossible to get even basic information from LV Metro. They initially were somewhat rude and dismissive when basic questions were asked and now they simply say it is part of an ongoing investigation.

Tucker Carlson, as part of his investigative reporting, says that was his experience also.

A very important question that no one has answered is, where was the 40-man swat team at the time? It seems that no one knows. Another important question is, why was the Metro homicide department removed from the case and it given to a department that does not handle homicides?

Very perplexing.

Of course, the FBI will release no information as that is their policy during an investigation but they do appear to be somewhat annoyed at Sheriff Lombardo's speculations.

It will be interesting to see if we get more complete and definitive answers when the investigation is finally completed. It seems that the official responses to date create more questions than answers.

I will say that the handling of public relations leaves a little to be desired by LV Metro. I don't mean to be overly critical because I am a big believer in supporting my local law enforcement people. Most of them are pretty dedicated and they have a tough job. However, the TV appearances by the Sheriff is somewhat uninspiring.

But then again, perhaps he is simply overwhelmed by this case and maybe getting a lot of pressure from MGM.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 8, 2017 11:54AM)
Overwhelmed by the largest mass shooting in recent history? Ya think?

People looking to place blame with every word uttered and you can't imagine why they are not responsive. Hmmm I wonder? Maybe not the way anyone thinks it should be done but in this day and age you don't get into trouble for things you don't say. Nobody can twist it later. It is pure seelf defence. I see their logic, but don't think it is a correct course of action.