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Topic: Hamman count -- is it harder to learn if you don't know the Elmsley count
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 19, 2017 10:11AM)
Hi folks,


I'm trying to focus my learning by choosing tricks that excite me and learning the sleights needed to perform those tricks. I have in mind my own variation of the wild 9 trick, which requires a Hamman count.



But -- I don't know any false counts. So my question is, will it make my learning of the Hamman count easier if I first learn the Elmsley count? Or will learning Hamman be just as easy (or hard) to learn regardless of whether I already know Elmsley?



I realize, of course, that Elmsley is used in a *lot* more tricks than Hamman is. But right now the sleight I'm excited about learning is Hamman.


Thanks for your help!


Bob
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Oct 19, 2017 04:57PM)
Why not learn them both? They are both fun and usefull.

So, you have your own variation of a trick that requires the Hamman count but you don't know how to do the count?
Message: Posted by: Huzzah (Oct 20, 2017 11:47AM)
If you're serious about card magic, learn them both. You'll use both of them a lot, no question about it. In answer to you're question though, no, learning the Elmsley doesn't really help with the Hamman. The Elmsley count is typically done with the cards in a more mechanics grip and/or pinching the cards at the sides while the Hamman count's grip much more closely resembles a biddle grip.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 20, 2017 03:33PM)
Thanks to you both. Yes, I plan to learn both of them in time, absolutely. But not all at once!


I've read a lot more than I've practiced, so I know *about* much more than I *know*, if you see what I mean. . Giobbi has a trick, I think it's called the "Really Wild Nine Trick" - probably a version of the famous "Wild Card Trick," but I'd have to look both up again to make sure. I'd like to turn the situation into a story about two devils playing some kind of game with the backs of red and blue cards. There's a big bad devil and a little good devil, and the former cheats and is winning for a while. But then, to his surprise, the backs of his cards start changing color, and he ends up losing.


My wife and I have a 28-year old daughter, and the two of them are my audience at the moment. We've all retained our child-like love of simple stories like the one I just described.


Since I have a trick I need the Hamman count for, I'm happy to hear that I can start with the Hamman count.


By the way, can you folks suggest other tricks that use the Hamman count? There are so many uses of the Elmsley count that I hardly know where to start. (Not twisitng the aces -- he said sacrilegiously -- because I never found it all that interesting on the videos I've seen.) But the Wild Card is the only use I know of for the Hamman count.
Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Oct 22, 2017 01:24PM)
You have a good audience there :)
Message: Posted by: Chris03 (Oct 22, 2017 04:46PM)
When I was working on this sleights (50 years ago) I practice both of them : one Elmsley, one Hamman and so on, trying to keep the same rhythm. This has worked for me, why not trying that ?
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 22, 2017 10:27PM)
Interesting idea, Chris, thanks for the suggestion. I wish *I* had started 50 years ago -- I'm coming to magic latish in my life. It's wonderful fun.
Message: Posted by: Chris03 (Oct 23, 2017 06:24AM)
But you have a long life ahead of you, enjoy this years in the world of magic (not only).
Message: Posted by: Chris03 (Oct 23, 2017 08:23AM)
Bob G, houps, I make a mistake I have confused the Hamman count with the Jordan count and one Elmsley, one Jordan and so on is a good way for practice both, but if you want to master the Hamman you must work on it and only on it and you will discover several ways to make it.
Sorry for that error.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 24, 2017 11:35AM)
Thanks for the clarification, Chris, and the good wishes!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 6, 2018 10:15PM)
Interesting to see someone starting with a vision for the routine rather than a packet trick with instructions. How's it going?
Hamman's count is a start for the trick. There's still the work with turnovers and ...

Happy New Year,

JonT
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 7, 2018 02:28AM)
Hi Jon,


Happy New Year to you too. Thanks for checking in, and for your take on packet tricks -- I hadn't thought of it that way. I haven't done anything with this idea so far, though the trick is still on my list, and the Hamman count is still a sleight I want to learn. I've been practicing small packet DL's for Color Monte (and a regular full-deck DL, which is finally starting to go well), and I've created my own story for Nick Trost's Sub-Trunk Mystery (which also appears in Paul Cummin's lecture notes -- not sure if this was an independent invention).


I'll look at Giobbi's routine again; it's been a while and I don't remember turnovers, etc. Maybe it's a good thing that I'm deferring my idea for a while and concentrating on simpler effects.


Advice is always welcome.


Best,


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 7, 2018 03:56PM)
Jon,


I just looked again at Giobbi's version in CC, and there's a lot involved. I also looked at an 8-page thread, to which you contributed, in which people were listing, at first, their favorite Wild Card Effects, and then, every WC they could think of. It ws overwhelming! So here's a question for you, given that you seem to have a broad knowledge of this type of effect. Can you recommend a WC effect that meets the following requirements?"


1. It would be easily adaptable to the "devils" plot I suggested;


2. It would be within the reach of a relative beginner;


3. It would be ungifted (probably contradicting #2).


I mayl have to put this one off till I have more experience, but of course I'd love to perform it earlier rather than later if practical. Thanks for whatever you have time to offer.


&&&


Also, a note to fonda57: I thought I had acknowledged your nice commment, "You have a good audience there," but maybe I forgot to hit the "Submit Reply" button. Bob
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 7, 2018 06:14PM)
There are several ways to execute the Hamman count.
The two main ones are in "one flowing motion" (one card after each other) and another method is with a time interval / delay at the "critical" moment.

with time interval: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvURE6ueeEk at 01min19sec

flowing motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3QynL4oLhg at 00min22sec

One is not better than the other. It depends on the trick and your style.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 7, 2018 06:38PM)
Jon, Oops! In point #3 the spell checker changed "ungaffed" to "ungifted"!


Thanks, Waterloophai, I'll look at these videos.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 7, 2018 08:26PM)
I haven't checked the nuances of the Hamman count at the times you kindly gave me,
Waterloophai, but I want to thank you for introducing me to Tommy Wonder. I'd heard lots of good things about him but hadn't seen him. He's a master commedian, isn't he? I enjoyed his presentation thoroughly.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 7, 2018 10:00PM)
Has Trixer, among others, explored a wildcard type routine (Wild, Man, Wild) using duplicates and the backs changing color. Bob Farmer's also been exploring the theme. If you'd like to see the Hamman count done surprisingly well - find the Fred Kaps video on YouTube of him doing the gypsy cards trick. :)

You might enjoy learning the Biddle card trick as you practice ;) :D
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 8, 2018 02:43PM)
Hi again, Jon. I'm afraid you may be providing an example of a friends' dictum that "Virtue is its own punishment." Your comments have led me to further questions. Answer them or not as you please.


1. I looked pretty hard on the web and was unable to find a source for Hans Trixer's routine (other than a couple of youtube performances). And I couldn't find anything about Farmer's ideas, except that his effect may be called Headhunter. Do you happen to know any sources?



3. Thanks for mentioning the Kaps video. Everyone raves about him, and I'll be glad to have a chance to see him in action.


3. Funnily enough, the Biddle trick is high on my list of tricks that I'd *like* to learn. Another trick with a false count -- yay! I emphasize "like" to learn because of the following dilemma. It's such a great trick, and yet people routinely ruin it, or so I've concluded from youtube performances. It seems to me that to do justice to the trick one has to motivate all the steps (like cutting the deck in half and choosing five cards). I love Giobbi's version in CC3 ("The Invisible Card"), but there's an awful lot to learn in order to perform it: Biddle Steal, of course; injog shuffle, top card glimpse, riffle force... Mind you, those are all basic techniques that I'll want to learn eventually anyway. But I'm curious whether you know of a good plot that doesn't use quite so much.


I've read some threads that suggest Jon Armstrong's handling, and he does motivate everything, but what he does just isn't to my taste.


Thanks again for all your thoughts.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 10, 2018 02:51PM)
The item, Wild, Man, Wild was a Ken Brooke item - a packet of eight blue backed jokers and one red backed joker - wildcard using the backs rather than faces.

Bob Farmer is a Café member and can be reached at bammomagic@cogeco.ca for email. So far folks have kept the basic presentation idea of Headhunter quiet... good :) :D

There's a video online on YouTube of Fred Kaps doing some card magic - including his version of the Gypsy Curse which uses the count. Playing up the changes as a process or single event is up to you. ;)

The Biddle trick has a history - see here: http://www.geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Biddle_Trick

Enjoy your explorations!

JonT
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 10, 2018 06:33PM)
I will -- thanks, Jon!


Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Jan 22, 2018 10:47AM)
I do not use a Hamman Count but another count.
Can be seen in the beginning of this video:
https://vimeo.com/115813699


Darko
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 22, 2018 04:41PM)
I enjoyed your video, Darko. It's really magical to see all these black face cards turn slowly and gracefully into red Jacks. I'm curious about the count you used. Is it a known count with a name that I could look up? Or your own?


Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Jan 23, 2018 08:24AM)
[quote]On Jan 22, 2018, Bob G wrote:
I enjoyed your video, Darko. It's really magical to see all these black face cards turn slowly and gracefully into red Jacks. I'm curious about the count you used. Is it a known count with a name that I could look up? Or your own?


Bob [/quote]

Thanks.

I came up with this false count for the Wild Card and 8 Card Brainwave routine.
I find it more natural than Hamman Count.
I do not know if this false count exists before.


Darko
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 23, 2018 08:29AM)
Darko, it's nice to see an alternative for the odd-numbered counting that works from dealers/fingertip grip. It avoids a shift in card handling styles. That style of Odd count Elmsley did not make it into Jon Rachebaumer's CounThesaurus?
Message: Posted by: dj (Jan 23, 2018 09:12AM)
[quote]On Jan 23, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
That style of Odd count Elmsley did not make it into Jon Rachebaumer's CounThesaurus? [/quote]
I don't know.
Maybe someone here in the forum can answer this question.



Darko
Message: Posted by: dj (Jan 23, 2018 09:19AM)
Here is my "8 Card Brainwave" with the same false count:
https://youtu.be/ORgANFpNdFQ



Darko
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 23, 2018 01:53PM)
Thanks for the new video, Darko. I own a copy of CounThesaurus and would be happy to look to see if Racherbaumer has something similar to Darko's count. But I'm not sure what to look for. I don't remember an "Odd Count Elmsley" in that book, but there are some variations on Elmsley. I'll see what I can find and would welcome hints on what to look for.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 23, 2018 03:56PM)
P. S. I like your handling better than the traditional one (Trost's I guess?). I've never believed that the Olram Subtlety would be very convincing, and I'll tell you why (he said, channeling P. G. Wodehouse)). Years ago I took my daughter to a restaurant where a magician was table-hopping (though I didn't know the term at that time). He showed us one of those effects, DOTS Incredible, or something like that, that are close relatives of 8-card brainwave. And I *saw* the discrepancy. I had never heard of the Olram Subtlety at that time, but I could see what he was doing. Honestly, I felt pretty proud of noticing that -- one of those rare moments of triumph -- but that experience also made me skittish about using the OS myself.


Darko, I don't know if you've rediscovered a known count, but anyway I would love to learn it. Would you be willing to PM me and explain how your count works? No pressure, of course -- if you want your invention to remain your secret I'll totally understand. I'll still look in Racherbaumer's book tonight to see if anything seems to resemble it -- but it will be hard for me to tell because from my inexperienced point of view you did a good job of hiding the mechanics in your performances.


Thanks,


Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Jan 23, 2018 04:30PM)
[quote]On Jan 22, 2018, Bob G wrote:
I enjoyed your video, Darko. It's really magical to see all these black face cards turn slowly and gracefully into red Jacks.
Bob [/quote]
This is Vallarino's Ultimate Wild Card routine. The difference is that at the beginning of the routine, I don't use a Hamman Count.



Darko
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Jan 26, 2018 08:16AM)
Just in case you would not know, guys. It's possible to perform the Hamman at the fingertips. Here I perform it with 5 cards, but you might use 7 or 9 if you wish.

[youtube]KUUssnt_SFs[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 26, 2018 10:02AM)
Thanks, Claudio. Helpful as always.
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Jan 26, 2018 01:59PM)
Thanks Bob.
Message: Posted by: S.V.C (Jan 31, 2018 06:55AM)
First time I see an Hamman done at the finger tips, thank you for sharing this.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Jan 31, 2018 04:44PM)
Claudio, do you know of a place where I can learn the details of the Fingertips version of Hamman? It has a nice, natural look to my untutored eyes. (Of course, part of the naturalness has to be a result of your years of experience in magic. I, too, have years of experience -- about 1.7. :) )



Bob
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 1, 2018 07:17AM)
Compliments on the "three" there Claudio. Any tips on how to?
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Feb 1, 2018 11:05AM)
Thanks guys.

The Hamman count from a dealing grip can be found on Master Card Technique Vol 1 - World’s Greatest Magic http://www.llpub.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2427

I did not purchase the video as most sleights demoed in the DVD, I either knew, or did not care about (like third dealing). But, the execution of every sleight, I saw on a trailer, was very smooth.

I learnt this HC after watching a trailer of the video online (I vaguely remember as it was about 10 years ago or so).

If you want to practice the sleight without buying the DVD, I have found that the crucial factor is to make sure that, when the switch takes place, the RH goes around, on the right-hand side in other words, of the cards held in left hand, in order to push the RH cards a bit further up than the LH cards. I found that if you don't do that, your left thumb won't have much purchase on the packet during the switch, and you'll end up with a mess in both hands :)

But I emphasise, this is my interpretation of the move. You might be better off buying the DVD, as I suspect you'll get more technical details and tips.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 1, 2018 08:01PM)
Hi Claudio,


Thanks for this advice and the reference to the disk. Like you, I wasn't interested in most of the sleights on the disk. But I'm on L&L's mailing list, so I'll find out if this disk goes on sale.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 2, 2018 02:24PM)
Darko,


I just watched your handling of 8-card brainwave again. I find it much more convincing (and pleasing to look at) than the usual Olram Subtlety version. I gather that you prefer not to share your count, which is totally understandable, but I wonder if you'd be willing, perhaps in a PM, to give me a brief explanation of how to accomplish something like your handling, but with one of the standard counts -- Elmsley, Hamman, etc.? I was trying to work this out for myself. At first I think I was stuck because I was limiting myself to the standard red-blue alternation. Now I'm guessing that part of the secret lies in the order in which you pick up the cards after the spectator makes his selection. One idea would be to pick up the cards in such a way that all the cards of the spectator's color end up together in one strategically-placed packet, and then do an HC to hide the cards of that color.


I may have mentioned that I've always been suspicious of the Olram maneuver because, years ago, I picked up on it when watching a magician perform at a restaurant. This was long before I got seriously interested in magic, and I had never heard of Olrams, subtle or not. That modest moment of triumph makes me unreasonably interested in avoiding Olram in my own performances.


Well... This is your creation, and I obviously respect your right not to divulge your secrets. But I thought I'd ask just in case... :)


Thanks,


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 2, 2018 02:26PM)
Hi again, Darko,


You can ignore my last message. I finally appreciated the significance of your previous words: "This is Vallarino's Ultimate Wild Card routine. The difference is that at the beginning of the routine, I don't use a Hamman Count." Despite that occasional moment of triumph, I'm usually a bit slow!


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Feb 2, 2018 02:36PM)
Hi yet again, Darko,


You can ignore my message asking you to ignore the previous message!! It's 8-card brainwave that I was wondering about, and, of course, Vallarino's routine would answer the question for Wild Card, not for 8-card brainwave. So if you have any thoughts you're willing to share about 8-card-brainwave, I'll be grateful.


Clearly I need to leave my computer now!


Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Feb 2, 2018 03:17PM)
In this video I start with eight cards and I end with four cards.
Everything just false counts.
Very, very suitable for wild card routines, 8 card brainwave routines, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU4PUyDm8Qc&t=2s

If there is really interest, then I can make a explanation video with these all false counts (where I start with eight cards and end with four cards).
If anyone is interested can contact me via PM.



Darko
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Feb 3, 2018 02:25AM)
Very nicely done.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 19, 2018 02:33PM)
I'm really impressed that you were able to learn the fingertips Hamman count from watching a trailer. The dvd you mentioned finally did go on sale, for $9.00. For me, at least, it was a waste of money: the explanation went by so fast that I couldn't follow it. Daryl does it on his Encyclopedia of Card sleights, but there again, the presentation is pretty brisk, though definitely better. If anyone has a reference, on dvd or in print, to the fingertips Hamman,one that's detailed and slow, I'd love to hear about it.



And to Darko: I won't ask you again, because it's obviously your choice whether to divulge your methods, but I'd still be interested in learning how to do the false counts that you used in your videos on this thread. Thanks for considering!



Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Oct 19, 2018 05:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2018, Bob G wrote:


And to Darko: I won't ask you again, because it's obviously your choice whether to divulge your methods, but I'd still be interested in learning how to do the false counts that you used in your videos on this thread. Thanks for considering!
Bob [/quote]
I can make an explanation video for you.
I will contact you.


Darko
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 19, 2018 06:39PM)
Darko,



That's very generous of you. Many thanks.



Bob
Message: Posted by: dj (Oct 19, 2018 08:18PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2018, Bob G wrote:
Darko,



That's very generous of you. Many thanks.



Bob [/quote]
See your PM box.


Darko
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 19, 2018 08:39PM)
Got it -- very excited to watch. I'll PM you once I've done so.
Message: Posted by: Recoplon (Oct 20, 2018 01:57AM)
Can this be public? Or can we request it also? Count is nice.
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Oct 20, 2018 03:01AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2018, Bob G wrote:
I'm really impressed that you were able to learn the fingertips Hamman count from watching a trailer. The dvd you mentioned finally did go on sale, for $9.00. For me, at least, it was a waste of money: the explanation went by so fast that I couldn't follow it. Daryl does it on his Encyclopedia of Card sleights, but there again, the presentation is pretty brisk, though definitely better. If anyone has a reference, on dvd or in print, to the fingertips Hamman,one that's detailed and slow, I'd love to hear about it.
...
Bob [/quote]
I suppose you were addressing me? Once you've worked with false counts for a certain amount of time, you'll see that there's nothing mysterious about it. For example, dj's count demos for 5 and 7 cards are identical to the count I perform (for 5) on my own demo. The grip is slightly different for sure, but the mechanics (and the tells) are the same. So, once you've learnt dj's count (Elmsley Grip), you can transfer your knowledge to the grip I demo - if you wished.

As always, I wish you good luck in your endeavours.
PS: Sorry you wasted your money on the DVD :(
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 20, 2018 11:47AM)
Dear Claudio,



Sorry for the confusion. I meant to address you for part of my message, and the "general public" for the rest of it. I hope you didn't take personally my remark about the DVD -- that was supposed to be the part for the general public. You had said that you'd learned the count by watching the trailer and hadn't seen the DVD. You didn't recommend the DVD, so you have nothing to feel sorry about. It was my decision to buy it, and for $9 I'm not going to complain. My purpose was simply was simply to inform others who might want to follow up on the fingertips Hamman about the disk's brevity and lack of detail for that sleight.



Thanks for your thoughts about the unity of false counts. And yes, of course, once I learn Darko's counts, and Alex Elmsley's original version of his count, I want to work on the grip you displayed. It will take some (pleasurable) time to get through all that...! :)



As always, thanks for all the help you've given me and for your friendly spirit.



Bob
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Oct 20, 2018 01:08PM)
No problem at all, Bob, but thanks all the same for clarifying. And enjoy the journey :)