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Topic: Memorising first deck
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 1, 2018 04:57PM)
So in the past I've frequently used stacks such as Stebbins and 8 Kings.
I want to start using a memorised deck and have chosen to start with The Magic Convention Set-Up by David Berglas.

I'm aware of techniques to learn the deck in order, however how would I go about learning the cards alongside their corresponding numbers?
Is there any technique to remember which number between 1 and 54 corresponds with which card, such that if one were to say 27 for example I'd know it corresponded with 9D without having to mentally go through the first 26 cards?

Many Thanks,
Rssudo
Message: Posted by: Steve Burton (Jan 1, 2018 05:09PM)
You might check out the first thread in this section, How to Use a Memorized Deck. Lots of useful information for those beginning to learn this area of card magic.

I use the Link and Peg System found in the last chapter of [i] The Encyclopedia of Card Tricks[/i]. You create a word picture that corresponds to the number of the card in the deck.

After you do that you'll always have the mnemonic reference for every card. After a while, you will automatically remember the card and location through rote.
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 1, 2018 05:36PM)
Http://maigret.org/trailer/start.html
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 06:15PM)
The Link and Peg Systems are in The Encyclopedia of Card Tricks? I don't have, never read, that book. Fill me in, would you?
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 1, 2018 06:30PM)
In chapter 20 (last chapter) the Nikola system is indeed described. The book is a classic.
Message: Posted by: ddyment (Jan 1, 2018 06:35PM)
There are at least four commonly used methods to memorize value-position relationships. Each has its proponents and detractors. Each offers benefits and presents drawbacks.

I discuss all of this in some detail in my [url=https://www.deceptionary.com/aboutstacks.html]essay on the topic[/url].
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 1, 2018 06:39PM)
If you want to learn more about the most used methods to learn a mem deck, the link above from Doug Dyment is indeed a very good source.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 1, 2018 06:45PM)
Yeah, stay away from HOW TO DEVELOP A SUPER-POWER MEMORY, SECRETS OF MIND POWER, REMEMBERING PEOPLE (The Key To Success), MEMORY MAKES MONEY, SUPER MEMORY-SUPER STUDENT, THE MEMORY BOOK, AGELESS MEMORY, etc. (Oh, and the words Peg and Link are in that chapter, Waterloophai?
Message: Posted by: Waterloophai (Jan 1, 2018 06:50PM)
I never wrote that they have to stay away from your books.
I just wrote that the Nikola system is described in the mentioned book.
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 2, 2018 02:40AM)
Thanks guys!
Is the peg system similar to the system for memorising lists described at the beginning of the chapter of 13 steps about memory? Can't remember what it's called but it's the one where you have words from one to 30 that rhyme with the number? I haven't used it for magic but more for remembering long shopping lists 😂
Also I know Harry Lorayne has many books on memory, which books would be recommended of mainly wanted for memorising cards?

Many thanks
Rssudo
Message: Posted by: alicauchy (Jan 2, 2018 04:23AM)
[quote]On Jan 2, 2018, Rssudo wrote:
Also I know Harry Lorayne has many books on memory, which books would be recommended of mainly wanted for memorising cards?
[/quote]

I used "How to develop a super-power memory" to learn Mnemonica in a couple of days (including the time to get familiar with the link and peg systems).
Message: Posted by: Steve Burton (Jan 2, 2018 02:21PM)
I was surprised to learn just how old the memory system concept really is. Mnemonic principle's genesis appears to be Stanislaus Mink von Wennsshein, (Johann Just Winkelman) [b] circa 1648 [/b], this is known as the Major System of mnemonics. It was a way to remember numbers.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 5, 2018 08:26AM)
If you'd like a bit of history of memory training go to memoryimprovement.org. Keep hitting "continue" until you come to that bit of history.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Jan 6, 2018 09:58AM)
Cyclical stacks such as 8 kings and Stebbins are so popular because of how easy they are to learn and remember. While all memory work is worth learning and might even stay off dementia I don't see why learning anything complicated for a card stack is worth it? I'm old school where the simplest solution is usually the best one. Occam's Razor.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Jan 6, 2018 12:34PM)
I thought Occam's Razor was only applied to develop theories and hypothesis.

It can be a lot of work to learn a stack up to "performance level", but I can see the differences it has compared to cyclical stacks. The instant knowledge of each card position, some effects built into it, and the "lack" of a recognizable pattern can all be advantages. But, it la ks the mathematical properties a cyclical stack has.

In the end it sorts of depends what are you wanting to achieve, right? I don't think cyclical/mathematical stacks should be in the same category of memorizes stacks. They are different tools, although they share some similarities
Message: Posted by: alicauchy (Jan 6, 2018 12:59PM)
[quote]On Jan 6, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
...While all memory work is worth learning and might even stay off dementia I don't see why learning anything complicated for a card stack is worth it? I'm old school where the simplest solution is usually the best one. Occam's Razor. [/quote]

Yes, it is a matter of personal choice. For me it is worth. It simply depends on whether you are willing to use the full power of a memorized stack (as stated by Ricardo) or not; moreover, the mnemonic system can be used as well in the "real world".
Message: Posted by: ddyment (Jan 6, 2018 01:51PM)
Ricardo Delgado opined:[quote]I don't think cyclical/mathematical stacks should be in the same category of memorizes stacks.[/quote]
This perpetuates a false dichotomy. Being a member of one group doesn't preclude membership in another.

Cyclical/mathematical, or any other types of stack, should be in the same category as memorized stacks if they are memorized. Otherwise, not.

There are, in fact, specific advantages to memorizing stacks that have additional useful properties.
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Jan 6, 2018 03:52PM)
[quote]On Jan 6, 2018, ddyment wrote:
This perpetuates a false dichotomy. Being a member of one group doesn't preclude membership in another.

Cyclical/mathematical, or any other types of stack, should be in the same category as memorized stacks if they are memorized. Otherwise, not.
[/quote]

You are completely right. Any deck order can be a memorized stack if someone put in the work to memorize it.

But I was referring to the exclusive properties of the cyclical stacks. And considering that Senor Fabuloso implied he doesn't memorize the stacks he use, then they are not memorized stacks, right?
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jan 8, 2018 06:24AM)
I'm about to turn 53 and crazy enough to decide to delve into the memdeck world ... :-)


In little less than a month, little by little, day by day, I feel quite confident with the first 26 cards on the Mnemonica stack.
Now I'm stopping here for a while, because I want to keep on fixing into my mind the half stack, while starting to work on some of the routines in Juan Tamariz's great book which rely on only half stack.

I didn't use any kind of memorizing techniques: just learnt card and position by heart, by sheer rote.
What do you, more experts than me, think?

Is it just one of the methods or in the long run, this method (which seemed to work fine for me so far) will show some disadvantages?

Thanks

Mark
Message: Posted by: Ricardo Delgado (Jan 8, 2018 07:48AM)
That's great Mark!

I don't really have a solid basis for this, but from the knowledge I've gathered reading about memory and memory systems, the only disadvantages of route memorization are the time, effort and lack of other relationships your brain have to remember. This last disadvantage is not really bothersome if you use that knowledge on a regular basis, but if you spend some time without practice, you may forget some things.

If you don't want to delve into memory systems, the advices and techniques Tamariz offers on the book are really valuable:
1) make drawings on a deck of cards that will help you remember and relate the position to the specific card.
2) make a song about the positions and the cards. Make it silly and catchy. Record it and hear it some times. Sing along. It's silly, yeah, but that helps remembering.

Those two points have helped me a lot.

Other thing that helped me a lot:
3) make a cheat sheet. Take it with you. The Phoenix Bingo Cards can help.

4) practice sessions: shuffle, and put the deck in order. Then do it again. If you are in doubt, take a look at the cheat sheet. Do it again. And again. After you are confortable with it, start timing yourself. Last time I did it it took me 2min 50 sec. Not that great but I'm still trying to get it better.

I think you will really like to work with the memdeck.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 8, 2018 09:00AM)
Good Lord! Such amazing knowledge!!! (Incidentally - somewhere I have a testimonial (one of thousands) from a guy WHO IS NOT INTO MAGIC AT ALL telling me that he can memorize a deck of cards in five minutes using my systems!!
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jan 8, 2018 09:03AM)
Ricardo,

thanks for your answer.
In fact I did read Tamariz's suggestions in his book, but went the other way just the same. I'm quite sure I've taken the worst decision :-)

I'm quite sure you're right in saying that it would be easier to forget the stack if not practiced on regular basis, while by fixing images or what have you, this is less likely to happen.

I have both at work and home a pack of cards with numbers on the back of each card and I practise regularely. And I also have an App on the phone in case I do not have the practice deck with me ...
I started practising ordering the half stack from a shuffled deck while looking for cards I need to perform some packet trick a usually do (twisting the Aces, Oil and Queens and so on ...). That's a good exercise!

Mark
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Jan 8, 2018 09:08AM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2018, Ricardo Delgado wrote:

3) make a cheat sheet. Take it with you. The Phoenix Bingo Cards can help.

[/quote]

Right. I actually stuck one of those on the card case of each of the practice decks I have!

Mark
Message: Posted by: Sanks (Jan 28, 2018 10:40AM)
Try to memorise five cards a day. In 2 weeks you would have memorised the whole deck.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Jan 28, 2018 11:38AM)
Sanks: For God's sake, pay attention! Repeating an above post:

"Good Lord! Such amazing knowledge!!! (Incidentally - somewhere I have a testimonial (one of thousands) from a guy WHO IS NOT INTO MAGIC AT ALL telling me that he can memorize a deck of cards in five minutes using my systems!!"
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Feb 19, 2018 10:50PM)
Got the memory book by Harry Lorayne, and I started practicing memorizing playing cards. Yesterday I was able to memorize half a deck with no mistakes, it took about 10 or 15 minutes to come up with ridiculous associations, but right now I'm not concerned with speed, but rather accuracy. Today, I memorized almost the entire deck, I had about 8 or 9 wrong. Just gotta strengthen the images.
I also memorized the 100 peg words in order to memorize numbers.
Guys, these systems really do work. It takes time and practice, but it'll pay off! Highly recommend the memory book.

Mor