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Topic: "The Spellbound Problem"
Message: Posted by: Wilktone (Jan 2, 2018 04:39PM)
I've been thinking a lot about Spellbound lately, in part because of some recent topics here. The effect, I think, has two problems:

1. The method is pretty easy to backtrack, even if you perform it exceedingly well. There are either two coins or a copper/silver in play. Sure, they might never actually see anything suspicious, but I think that most people are thinking, "Wow, look how good that magician is at hiding the other coin."

2. The classic trick doesn't really have an ending. The coin just changes from copper to silver a number of times and then ends.

What examples of routines can you think of that solve these problems in some way?

David Roth's Spellbound from "Expert Coin Magic Made Easy" uses two coins. Having learned and performed this version of Spellbound more than any other, this is the routine I'm most familiar with. On a number of occasions I've performed it, folks have accused me of using a copper/silver at the same point in the routine (they don't call it a c/s, but that's what they think I'm using). Roth's next phase is to specifically have you flip the coin over and show both sides. It's brilliant construction, both because it immediately shows the spectator that you're not using what they think, and also simultaneously allows you to change palms.

Ponta the Smith's Spellbound routine from "Sick" ends with the coin disappearing, but you're left with both hands dirty at the end. It's also pretty hard to do.

Curtis Kam's triple spellbound routine, Xspell, ends with the production of 6(!) silver dollars that are completely different from the three coins you've been seeing up to the ending (and those coins vanished at that point too!). As far as endings to Spellbound goes, it's pretty good. Like Ponta the Smith's routine, it's quite challenging.

Kainoa Harbottle teaches a triple spellbound in his Coins 101 series. If I recall correctly, he briefly discusses how much more deceptive Spellbound becomes if you use a copper/silver as well as a Chinese coin. People can conceive of you hiding a second coin or a copper/silver, but when you use all three it seems to negate both possibilities. For some reason, they don't think of both at once.

What Kam's and Harbottle's above triple spellbound routines do, however, is make the coin change back and forth between all three coins. I wanted to be able to do a spellbound that had the feel of David Roth's, but had something more of an ending. Here is what I came up with.

[youtube]ywyXfMYvEP4[/youtube]

I still have some practice to do on it, but I'm certain that I'm not the only person to come up with this particular plot with these particular props. Can you help me find other Spellbound routines where the coin changes from copper to silver and back and then ends Chinese?

What other routines are you aware of that deal with the "Spellbound Problem?"


Dave
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 2, 2018 05:25PM)
Not what you will want to hear, especially form a close neighbor, bu the best way to avoid the problem is not to use Spellbound.

I have never cared for it as the hand positions are not those used in natural life. (as in lay persons)

This might not be a problem is those positions were used in other magic effects - teaching the audience what is normal.
Thus, all Spellbound moves tell the observer something unusual is afoot. A sleight should be of the "never happened" variety. This draws attention ot he hands.

That bias aside, the question is how to best achieve the desired end result. If Spellbound accomplishes this, go for it.

Just suggesting the answer to you quest is in another room, not in more effective Spellbound.

I can think of several routines that have C/S transpos and a final of another coin - all without Spellbound.
I can't help you find "other Spellbound routines" I can help with C/S Chinese effects.
Message: Posted by: Merc Man (Jan 2, 2018 06:11PM)
Learn to sleeve - and Spellbound can become a miracle.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jan 2, 2018 08:23PM)
I have always said that most spellbound routines are not complete. Spellbound, like any routine, should have a beginning, a middle, and an end. The changes are just the middle. There are two serious flaws in most spellbounds. The lack of completeness as just described, as well as a propensity to show off by performing one flashy move after another. It might be impressive for magicians, who like flashy moves, but bores real people. People have to believe that tbe coin has magjcally changed into another coin, not that you are just a clever manipulator. After a few changes, you have already proved you can change the coin. More than that does nothing to enhance the illusion.
Next, in addition to being too flashy, the changes happen too fast. There is no time to appreciate the magic. If it happens too fast, who has time to appreciate a very magical change?
Ok. Now that I have explained what I think is wrong with the general trend in spellbound routines, let me give you an example. Look at my routine Ultimate Silver Lint, found in my first Penguin Live lecture. There is a beginning....a production. Then there are about 4 changes...the middle, followed by a small extension (remove and return), and lastly, the finish (a vanish). A complete routine.
I have another in my second Penguin Live lecture. The routine is called Imagine A Coin. Here an invisible coin becomes real, changes a few times, and as a climax becomes a third coin. And to complete the routine, the coin changes back to its original form, then becomes invisible and the hands are empty.
To me, spellbound should be simple, magical, and entertaining. There are many other excellent spellbound routines that use these simple concepts. Look to the older magicians, not the flashy guys. They already know these simple rules.
By the way, there is nothing wrong with the flashy moves that many of the younger guys use. They are great. But its not the moves, its how you use them. Check out the many spellbound moves in the encyclopedia of coin sleights. They stand the test of time, and don't include juggling.
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jan 3, 2018 01:55AM)
Honestly, if I were to try and solve the problem as you posed it, your way (change to a third coin you haven't seen before) would be a great way to do it. Your patter only works for magicians, though, since only they really know about the problem you're parodying. For a lay audience you could do something like "a lot of people think I'm using two coins stuck together, but that doesn't explain where the Chinese coin came from" or some such, but I (personally) always feel like saying that is too close to revealing a secret.

But I also agree with a lot of Funsway's comments: maybe the solution is to use a different routine. Not all plots are for everyone, and if you don't like it, why not just do something different? Wild coins (3 copper -> 3 silver, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQb_3Emszkc) or some equivalent, might be more up your alley.

I feel like I once saw a routine by Craig Petty, though I can't recall where I saw it. He had patter where he learned how to pull coins from the air in the US (pull coin from air), and in the UK he learned how to change it into an UK coin (spellbound change), but it wasn't until he traveled to ... other country(?) that he learned how to make the coin disappear (coin disappears). He then talks about not being able to make the US coin disappear straightaway - he never learned that. He has to change it and only then will it disappear, all the while doing it again. Or at least that was the rough idea.

I bet you could take a similar concept and use that as patter. Talk about traveling and learning, and eventually your most recent lesson (China) you learned how to change it into a Chinese coin. But now you're stuck, because you can't change it back, or make it disappear. <finish, examine>
Message: Posted by: simplymagicweb (Jan 3, 2018 07:19AM)
Here's what I do as an opener...

Coin production - chinese coin
Quick spellbound - chinese into dollar, and back again
Quick flurry sequence, ending in jumbo coin production.

Has a beginning, middle and definite end with the jumbo production.
Message: Posted by: Zauberman (Jan 3, 2018 07:41AM)
If you are looking for a unique and visual ending.....try turning your coin into paper money. I end my closeup spellbound by turning a US $1 coin into a $1 bill.

I'm not sure where the write up of this is (there's a couple methods, with a TT and tipless) but it's a great kicker ending and you can now proceed to a paper money effect.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 3, 2018 09:21AM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2018, simplymagicweb wrote:
Here's what I do as an opener...

Coin production - chinese coin
Quick spellbound - chinese into dollar, and back again
Quick flurry sequence, ending in jumbo coin production.

Has a beginning, middle and definite end with the jumbo production. [/quote]


I like the use of a shorter approach to Spellbound, and or to use it as part of or within a little larger presentation.

I agree, to go back & forth with one coin is cute but a bit monotonous and can lead to helping the specs figure out what you must be doing, though they might not be able to explain it just so. Using the "3rd Option" of a Chinese coin is a good way to end *[I](Hey, Tone, smooth out that Changeover Palm and you'll have something there)[/I]. ;) I actually did something like that many years back now on my [b]Short Pockets[/b] download, "Copper/Silver SURPRISE!" It used a couple of elements mentioned by Wilktone but was heightened by my use of the Crimp Change which took away the expected need to bring together both hands to make a change. ;) That usage broke-up the spec's possible thinking of any such trickery going on hand to hand. Most of all, it was not a long, drawn out, back & forth to things, but just a nice bit of unexplainable magic they could easily follow, enjoy and always remember. :) I always thought of that as a "gem" piece in the download, because it supplied a unique tool & usage toward a classic work that gave you another jumping off point as to the effect. In fact, I came to do many other things behind the concepts I described there. And y'know, I still think that "Short Pockets" download was one of the very best things I ever did and shared with the craft...All of the rest of me from there, comes from it in one way or another. :)

I've also played with Spellbound using other moves, like in my "SPE'L" offering in my more recent [b]Double Trouble[/b] download, that really keeps front and center the use of just one coin as to the changes. I think short & sweet seems to work better as to Spellbound than when you sorta "yo-yo" specs back in forth with it over & over again. Of course, creative outs like the finale of a Chinese coin, sle**in*, a final change to a dollar bill, etc., create hard right turns that usually throws them off the beaten path of it all. And y'know, I like the notion about keeping it "simple," it really fits my thinking nowadays as magic that "Less is More." :)
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Jan 3, 2018 10:08AM)
I think part of the problem is solved if we really focus on the effect, which is a Transformation.

I often think about what could be logical and acheivable with transforming a coin. For example, why not change the physical state of the coin? I know you may have seen this but I'll post it again to explain my point:
[youtube]BeZNC_92LYE[/youtube]

When one coin appears to change to another, you're right, people just think you're good at switching coins. But to alter the coin can lead to better conviction that a transformation has happened.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 3, 2018 11:45AM)
Rick, I like this approach, but the ball is almost too small to be seen. Have you tried it with something larger?
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Jan 3, 2018 02:48PM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2018, funsway wrote:
Rick, I like this approach, but the ball is almost too small to be seen. Have you tried it with something larger? [/quote]

yeah, I just need to order one online I guess.

Here's something I was experimenting with quite a few years ago. Not really logical, but cool nonetheless.

[youtube]_s0q-NiXfJw[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jan 3, 2018 06:11PM)
Rick, I'd forgotten about that one. I agree it's not as logical, but still fun.
I realize it's an oldie, but here are a couple of ideas I just had that might help with that:

- Make it a red coin, instead, to match the ball (http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S8242), or use a black sponge ball.
Bonus points if you can figure out how to use the two-colored coins (https://www.murphysmagic.com/Product.aspx?id=49861), and two colors of ball (or https://tricksupply.com/product/color-changing-sponge-ball-redgreen-bizarro/, he also has a red/black on his website but I couldn't figure out how to link to it).

- Stick a hole in the sponge ball (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JznvI1FZiUs) to make it more similar to the coin, which has a hole. Draw attention to that.

- Awesomely clean hands by using a sanada gimmick.

Man, now I want to try out some of these ideas; maybe I should have just kept them to myself?
But I have none of the props! :(
Message: Posted by: Douglas.M (Jan 3, 2018 06:49PM)
I like David Roth's Wild Coin. It ends with a brief Spellbound sequence before the all the coins change back to silver. I end the Spellbound sequence with Ammar's Fingertip Spellbound, which is a change-up.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Jan 3, 2018 06:52PM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2018, tonsofquestions wrote:
Rick, I'd forgotten about that one. I agree it's not as logical, but still fun.
I realize it's an oldie, but here are a couple of ideas I just had that might help with that...

- Stick a hole in the sponge ball (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JznvI1FZiUs) to make it more similar to the coin, which has a hole. Draw attention to that...
[/quote]

Or maybe instead of a hole in the sponge ball, perhaps more of a "slot-like" cut into the back of the ball (not all the way through) to insert and or remove the coin from or to hide it until you need it or want to hide it....Hmmmm? Squeezing the ball could release the coin into the hand for a quick change out of seemingly nowhere of the ball to a coin. And I guess with the right moves, you could go vice versa. :)

*And hey Rick, nice one-handed change of the coin to a steel ball, and then the sponge ball to a coin...Good job! ;)
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Jan 3, 2018 09:20PM)
Or you could Do my Five way spellbound From my 1 st. Hardbound! I have found that after the 3 th. coin layman mostly gave up! :) And by the 5 th. coin There Gone!!! :)
Message: Posted by: jim ferguson (Jan 3, 2018 11:34PM)
Rick - I too have played around with the coin and ball idea, I still do from time to time. I use a half dollar and a one inch red sponge ball - I feel a ball of similar size looks better than a larger, more dramatic change. I also start with the coin instead of the ball.

Funsway - did you mean the COIN is difficult to see ? The ball is huge compared to the coin, and I wouldn't think anyone would have any trouble seeing it. If it is the coin you are referring to, I'd say that was pretty easy to see as well, as are the changes.

Wilktone - Im not sure that backtracking is the problem. It is up to us as magicians to make our tricks deceptive. ANY effect that has poor construction will be easily backtracked.
The lack of any real ending is something I agree with though, and has been a long standing problem for folk with this piece. Many have their own solutions, usually involving a final change to a completely different, or jumbo coin.
The jumbo coin is something I'm not overly keen on. Usually (but not always) it is simply thrown in, in an attempt to give the routine some sort of ending. But rarely does it have anything to do with the rest of the trick, or make any real sense. It would be like doing ten erdnase changes in a row, then BAM, the deck is now a jumbo. It might get a surprise, but it makes absolutely no sense.
In the case of starting with a borrowed coin, the final change will usually have to be back to the original coin.

In the other thread I mentioned a couple of what, in my opinion, are problems with the trick.
I think some sort of context is needed. Half the time it is done in complete silence - someone simply standing there showing you all the coin changes they've learned. This is a manipulation act, a skill display, NOT a magic trick.
Without some sort of reason or context, it is simply showing off.

Too many changes can harm the routine rather than enhance it in my opinion. There is no need to do it ten or fifteen times, its ridiculous. After the first few changes it is obvious you can change one coin into another. If you could change the back of a playing card from red to blue and back again, you wouldn't stand there and keep doing it ten or fifteen times would you ?
Don't make the common mistake of thinking that your ten changes are different because each uses a different method for the change - to the spectators it is the same effect over and over again.

Another problem I see with the effect is the need in many routines, to move the concealed coin from one grip to another. Most of the time it is blatantly obvious that SOMETHING funny is going on, and that supposedly empty hand clearly contains something.
It would be far better to work out your routine so that the coins are in the correct position for the next change, without any adjustments.


Jim
Message: Posted by: tonsofquestions (Jan 4, 2018 01:33AM)
Funsway's talking about the first video - changing it into a ball-bearing, which is rather small compared to the coin, even if accurate volume-wise.

By "other thread" you mean the one on Goshman's work? (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=654453&start=0)

I also feel similarly about jumbo coins, about the only one I really like it in is something like Dishonest Abe, or the one where you punch a mini-penny out of the regular one.

I agree about many of the tendencies, but I do think it's possible to do one that doesn't suffer from change overload, and I think that's more what the OP was trying to get to solutions for, not merely the coin juggling.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Jan 4, 2018 06:33AM)
One advantage to the sponge ball routine that there is some logic to holding the ball that way, i.e. between the thumb and finger.
This position can transfer to the coin to some degree. There is a difference between how we naturally hold 2D objects and 3D ones -
at least to show to another person. (for me any way).

Another thought is the dwell time between changes. Methinks many of the demos do not allow enough time for the change to register or be appreciated,
making them more of a skill demonstration than a magical event. What is more "entertaining?" That is the rub ...
Message: Posted by: Signet (Jan 4, 2018 05:11PM)
I have been practicing Spellbound the traditional way, exchanging the two coins. I practice in front of a mirror. When I try it using a c/s, I get the same effect. Honestly, it's much cleaner with the gimmick. I then do a Bobo switch to a JFK. Is it bad form to do this? It's definitely much easier being a beginner.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 4, 2018 05:48PM)
[quote]On Jan 2, 2018, Wilktone wrote:
I've been thinking a lot about Spellbound lately, in part because of some recent topics here. The effect, I think, has two problems:

1. The method is pretty easy to backtrack, even if you perform it exceedingly well. There are either two coins or a copper/silver in play. Sure, they might never actually see anything suspicious, but I think that most people are thinking, "Wow, look how good that magician is at hiding the other coin."

2. The classic trick doesn't really have an ending. The coin just changes from copper to silver a number of times and then ends.

... [/quote]

3. What could make the routine interesting to an audience is not part of the instructions. It's still up to the the performer to establish interest, focus and some relationship between what the audience can see for themselves and what you want them to believe you did. For example, remember that horse of a different color in the Wizard of Oz?
Message: Posted by: jim ferguson (Jan 4, 2018 06:04PM)
[quote]On Jan 4, 2018, Signet wrote:
I have been practicing Spellbound the traditional way, exchanging the two coins. I practice in front of a mirror. When I try it using a c/s, I get the same effect. Honestly, it's much cleaner with the gimmick. I then do a Bobo switch to a JFK. Is it bad form to do this? It's definitely much easier being a beginner. [/quote]


There's nothing wrong with that approach at all. Instead of the Bobo Switch, you could use a final Spellbound type change from the copper side of the gimmick to the regular half.


Jim


PS - Tons yes, I was referring to the Goshman thread in my above post.
Message: Posted by: Wilktone (Jan 9, 2018 09:22AM)
Hi, everyone.

Thanks for the very interesting responses. Lots of cool ideas, suggestions, and things to think about for me. Here are some thoughts I've had reflecting on the responses.

Funsway, you may be right - it may simply be better to avoid Spellbound in favor of Wild Coin or another plot. That said, one of the benefits of being an amateur is that I get to explore what interests me without regard to what's going to be commercial.

So many magicians have explored different approaches to Spellbound, I think there's something important to be learned in there. In classical music we have something called "etudes," which are studies designed to teach music students how to play better but aren't necessarily meant to be performed. Some etudes are so well-composed that musicians perform them anyway. Maybe Spellbound is a coin magic version of an etude.

Dr. Rubinstein, thanks for the references to your lectures and Encyclopedia. I have all those resources (I have a bigger library on coin magic than an amateur probably should have) and will go back through them and look at your suggestions.

Tonsofquestions, you may be right about my patter in the video, but I've actually performed it for friends using something similar. You may recognize my influence here. I told my friends that I was auditioning for a "very exclusive magic club" that has a lengthy audition process where you have to go through a series of trials to be considered a full member. My first task was to come up with a "clean ending for Spellbound." So to explain, I performed my version, ending with, "Now all I have to do is figure out what to do with the Chinese coin." They seemed to enjoy the "peek backstage."

Zauberman I like your idea of changing the coin into paper money. That could be fun.

MB, thanks for the encouragement. Yes, I still need some work to make those changeover palms look smooth and not like a move.

Rick, I've always enjoyed watching your videos. It's neat to see you play around with those different props and incorporate them into coin magic.

Lastly, I'm curious if anyone can suggestion some resources for material that use a copper/silver and Chinese coin in a Spellbound routine. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has come up with this idea of Spellbound ending with the production of a Chinese coin and I'd like to see what the experts have come up with. Or maybe the experts reject that approach, but I'd be interested to hear why.

Thanks again, all.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 9, 2018 11:14AM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Wilktone wrote:
...resources for material that use a copper/silver and Chinese coin in a Spellbound routine...[/quote]
The standard reference is Roth's triple change spellbound. It's in his book Expert Coin Technique.
Message: Posted by: Wilktone (Jan 9, 2018 11:56AM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Wilktone wrote:
...resources for material that use a copper/silver and Chinese coin in a Spellbound routine...[/quote]
The standard reference is Roth's triple change spellbound. It's in his book Expert Coin Technique. [/quote]

Do you mean "David Roth's Expert Coin Magic" by Richard Kaufman? I'm not all the way through it yet (chapter 10 still), but I don't recall any Spellbounds in this book. There are many effects with a copper/silver, but they usually use duplicate half dollars and English pennies, rather than a Chinese coin.
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Jan 9, 2018 12:02PM)
Look at my Triple EG Spell from Richards Almanac number 1, vol 3. (Also in my Penguin Live lecture 1). Then check out Scott Robinson's routine Heavy Metal from 1998 (Trapdoor vol 3 no. 68) and Reed McClintock's routine in Knuckebusters 3 from 2002, both based on that. The NYCMS dvd series had a few nice triple spellbound routines (including one that uses Stealth palm) and Curtis Kam has a real nice one as well. Don't forget Wild coin routines, and David Roth's Workers Wild Coin also in the NYCMS dvd series has a chinese climax.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Jan 10, 2018 02:43PM)
I have A triple Spellbound, As well as my 5 way spellbound And a lot Of other spellbound stuff In my 1 St. hardbound book!
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 13, 2019 10:11AM)
[quote]On Jan 3, 2018, Mb217 wrote:
[quote]On Jan 3, 2018, simplymagicweb wrote:
Here's what I do as an opener...

Coin production - chinese coin
Quick spellbound - chinese into dollar, and back again
Quick flurry sequence, ending in jumbo coin production.

Has a beginning, middle and definite end with the jumbo production. [/quote]


I like the use of a shorter approach to Spellbound, and or to use it as part of or within a little larger presentation.

I agree, to go back & forth with one coin is cute but a bit monotonous and can lead to helping the specs figure out what you must be doing, though they might not be able to explain it just so. Using the "3rd Option" of a Chinese coin is a good way to end *[I](Hey, Tone, smooth out that Changeover Palm and you'll have something there)[/I]. ;) I actually did something like that many years back now on my [b]Short Pockets[/b] download, "Copper/Silver SURPRISE!" It used a couple of elements mentioned by Wilktone but was heightened by my use of the Crimp Change which took away the expected need to bring together both hands to make a change. ;) That usage broke-up the spec's possible thinking of any such trickery going on hand to hand. Most of all, it was not a long, drawn out, back & forth to things, but just a nice bit of unexplainable magic they could easily follow, enjoy and always remember. :) I always thought of that as a "gem" piece in the download, because it supplied a unique tool & usage toward a classic work that gave you another jumping off point as to the effect. In fact, I came to do many other things behind the concepts I described there. And y'know, I still think that "Short Pockets" download was one of the very best things I ever did and shared with the craft...All of the rest of me from there, comes from it in one way or another. :)

I've also played with Spellbound using other moves, like in my "SPE'L" offering in my more recent [b]Double Trouble[/b] download, that really keeps front and center the use of just one coin as to the changes. I think short & sweet seems to work better as to Spellbound than when you sorta "yo-yo" specs back in forth with it over & over again. Of course, creative outs like the finale of a Chinese coin, sle**in*, a final change to a dollar bill, etc., create hard right turns that usually throws them off the beaten path of it all. And y'know, I like the notion about keeping it "simple," it really fits my thinking nowadays as magic that "Less is More." :) [/quote]

Man, meant to post this as an example... ;)

First, what I used to do... :D

[YOUTUBE]pW-3JqOYJzE[/YOUTUBE]


And what I do now... ;)

[YOUTUBE]ibLDOJAQ3rI[/YOUTUBE]
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Oct 13, 2019 11:30AM)
The major problem with Spellbound is conceptual and you get to the point where you're digging a bigger hole the more you try to illustrate the effect. The natural suspicion is that you have multiple coins, because the effect leads you in that direction.

Here are two underutilized approaches to dealing with that problem.

The first is that you don't repeat the effect. You show a copper coin, you establish both that coin and the emptiness of the hands otherwise, you do the magic (visual or not), and then you show a silver coin, and establish THAT coin and the emptiness of the hands otherwise. The issue here is that you don't merely imply with subtleties or whatnot, you establish things as clearly as possible. Ross Bertram is one worth looking at for this sort of approach.

The second is that you define the effect more specifically. If you just have one coin, wave the hand over it, and then show another coin... what's the effect? Have we given them an effect or just a surprising result? Why does waving a hand over it accomplish anything? What's the effect really? Contrast this with something like karate coin, which on an abstract, methodological level is really the same thing as Spellbound, but the effect is much different, and raises different questions at different times, offering new opportunities to enrich the trick with cleanup and whatnot. Another option is to vary the nature of the change. So, you get a washer that's about the size of a quarter, you rub your hand over the middle, and then show the hole is gone, but it's still a blank, and then after that you add the heads side, with the tails side still smooth, and only after that do you complete the quarter.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Oct 13, 2019 11:35PM)
I addressed the problem with this routine.

https://youtu.be/NL_isdqiF0A

It has been very, very successful.

Long ago I made the coins for this routine and sold it.
But that was very long ago.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Oct 14, 2019 09:24PM)
I mentioned this routine to Richard the chief genii at the Genii mag.
He thinks it would make a great article.
So, it is on my schedule to do next year.
So, if you want the skinny on it, you can get it next year.
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Oct 14, 2019 09:54PM)
If anyone is interested, I teach a Spellbound routine on my latest project with Copeland Coins.

Itís a silver dollar to dollar bill using my new technique, Sly Palm.

The project is 45 minutes full of techniques for vanishes, productions, color changes, steals, and a click pass too. This is a new palm/grip that you can immediately place into any of your coin magic you already do!

Check it out at www.copelandcoins.com
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 15, 2019 10:53AM)
Yeah Rick, I mentioned something about changing the coin to a surprise object, like a "dollar bill"...Always hightens the magic. ;)

*And if you guys (the big, small & all of you) haven't checked out Rick's new "Sly Palm" offering, what are you waiting for??? :D It's a wonderful new method that you can even use with your own magic. It's NEW, quite interesting, and highly recommended for any journey forward in your coin magic. :)
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Oct 15, 2019 12:51PM)
Spellbound has no problem
It is a simple effect, coin changes a few times. Problems come from magicians who think that changing the color is the only focus of the routine. It needs a beginning, a middle, and an end. It needs a few color changes, 3-5, and nothing crazy. No acrobatic stupid type moves where the magicians credit you for your ability, but laymen don't know the difference. Hard is not better. Lack of movement is better than manipulation. 20 changes bad. 3-5 changes good. Watch the masters, Vernon, Kaps, Goshman. Not today's digital jugglers. The effect is that the coin changes color. Leave it at that. People know it's not the same coin. If you have a copper and silver half dollar, they STILL know it's not the same coin. Keep it simple. Did I mention no acrobatic moves? Concentrate on making a move magical, not trying to catch a coin in motion. End with a vanish, change to a third coin, a ring (change the ring to a coin to start the routine and it becomes circular). Just keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Oh yes, keep it simple.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 03:28PM)
When you do Spellbound - what are you showing the audience?
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Oct 15, 2019 04:49PM)
There may be some misunderstanding about what spellbound is about.
I am not sure but I could use Albert Goshman as an example.
I hung out with him a bit when he was popular.
I saw him do Spellbound many times.
He invested tremendous energy making the coin change.
While watching the change one did not think of two coins.
One mentally and physically saw a single coin change from one coin to another.
Albert devoted his life to this effect.
How many are willing to do that.
I cannot.
Al
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 15, 2019 06:40PM)
Interesting comments here, glad I happened back upon it and re-started this thread... :)

Above in my "Spe'L" (My Spe[cia]L Coin) effect in my Double Trouble download, I make a deliberate effort to show that there is just one coin. This is effectively achieved IMHO, by my regular open shows of my hands. I find this to be effective in helping the specs to accept that there is just one coin that changes to another coin, and then eventually back again. With all the trappings I built around the shows and eventual ending, I've never thought specs thought of two coins by my presentation, but instead "...just saw a single coin change from one coin to another."

I do believe that less is more, and so agree here that just a few changes seems to work best, at least for me. In my take above, there are actually only two changes, and I've found it plays magically well enough to people...I'm just sayin'. :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 08:41PM)
There is some video of Al Goshman performing Spellbound online https://www.magicana.com/video/albert-goshman-spellbound
There's much better film and video of him doing his act available. https://www.magicana.com/news/blog/take-two-28-albert-goshman

You still need a premise that puts those changes into context. Al posted a link to his routine with a cone. You can find other examples of context in David Roth's Wildcoin, Planet, Rainbow and Blank Coin routines.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Oct 15, 2019 09:26PM)
That video clip of Albert doing Spellbound is not the way I saw him do it in person.
When I saw him do it he barely touched the coin and it changed.
It was so fast it didn't look like he covered the coin.
So, I don't know what is going on here.
In my experience I never got much of a response out of a direct spellbound.
My conclusion was to simply not use it.
But the routine with the cone kills.
Hence, I used it.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Oct 17, 2019 11:08AM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
I addressed the problem with this routine.

https://youtu.be/NL_isdqiF0A

It has been very, very successful.

Long ago I made the coins for this routine and sold it.
But that was very long ago.

...

I mentioned this routine to Richard the chief genii at the Genii mag.
He thinks it would make a great article.
So, it is on my schedule to do next year.
So, if you want the skinny on it, you can get it next year.
[/quote]

I absolutely LOVE Al's Cone and Coin routine. I bought his "The Al Schneider Technique volume 3" DVD just for it alone. Lots of other great material on it, too, making that DVD a real bargain. But for me Cone and Coin alone was worth the DVD's full price.

Al, will your upcoming Genii article on C&C include any additional tips on handling, technique, subtleties, or other new pointers?
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Oct 17, 2019 12:44PM)
Well, I think so. I am kinda thinking of more details on making the cone.
Some other magic sellers have talked to me about handling this.
When they find out how I make the cone, their interest fades.
However, due to your kind post, I will try and do a more complete job.
Al
Message: Posted by: karnak (Oct 17, 2019 03:37PM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
Well, I think so. I am kinda thinking of more details on making the cone.
Some other magic sellers have talked to me about handling this.
When they find out how I make the cone, their interest fades.
However, due to your kind post, I will try and do a more complete job.
Al [/quote]

That would be great. I have the necessary coins. But when it comes to making cones, I'm all thumbs.
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 21, 2019 03:03PM)
I think Roth's wild coin is my favorite routine that uses the spellbound effect.
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 25, 2019 01:34AM)
Just came across a relevant quote by Peter Duffy in a review from Magic Magazine, October 2007-p44:
"Dai Vernon once said that confusion is not magic. Vernon's Spellbound is a thing of beauty. The effect is both visual and crystal clear to the audience."
Message: Posted by: Wilktone (Oct 28, 2019 09:15AM)
This was a timely resurrection of this topic for me. I don't perform in formal situations very frequently, but this past weekend I got to be a volunteer performer at a medieval/renaissance themed event. One of the tricks I performed was "The Alchemist," a wild coin routine by Marc DeSouza (the effect is four copper coins changing into gold, being dropped into a glass and then all turning back to copper at the end). There are four spellbound changes used for each coin change.

After almost two years since first posting my thoughts on Spellbound (the routine, not the moves) I still feel that the two issues I originally posted are valid.

1. The method is obvious.

Sure, a lay audience may not fully understand HOW you're hiding one of the coins, but they know what's up. It's kind of like a card manipulation stage act or a quick-change act, it's more about the surprise of seeing one more fan of cards or one more outfit. With Spellbound the lay audience is most likely impressed with your skill, but doesn't reach the "must be magic" feeling that Mr. Schneider aims for in his theory writings.

2. There's no ending.

At least in the classic routines. For example, I looked at Vernon's Spellbound routine from Stars of Magic and it's simply 4-5 coin changes and then it stops. David Roth's Spellbound from Expert Coin Magic Made Easy videos similarly is a series of coin changes and then it stops. While the effects are indeed clear and visual, the moments start very surprising with the first change and then (I feel) must get less and less surprising each time. As an effect, it starts out strong and then ends weak.

Dr. Rubinstein's Imagine a Coin routine fixes these problem by "bookending" a triple spellbound routine with a production and vanish. The bookends help to make the method more deceptive (and more challenging to perform). Mr. Schneider's Cone and Coin routine fixes these problems by not really being a spellbound routine in the first place. Mr. DeSouza's The Alchemist fixes the problems by not being about a single coin changing back and forth a number of times, but rather four different coins changing once and then altogether.

So I think (as was suggested above already) the best way to perform "spellbound" is to not do a classic Spellbound routine but to use the moves in the context of a different routine (i.e., Wild Coin). I am, however, thinking of mostly my own performance style and goals. I am an amateur and mostly perform in casual situations for people I already know. The "perverse magic" style of Gerald Deutsch and "jerxian" style of Andy appeal more to me these days. You will probably find your own style and goals to be different from mine.

Dave
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 28, 2019 10:52AM)
Folks might like Curtis Kam's Inverted Spellbound. The effect being that you turn a coin inside out. You could pull the halfdollar into a couple of quarters to finish. Just saying it's really about the magic rather than skill demonstration.

A different approach would patter about how to hide valuable things by putting a thin coating of base metal on top. You take out a copper coin and pretend to pull off the wrapper and show a silver inside. Of course thieves figured that out long ago and so folks started leaving coins with only a thin silver layer around to take but when the thieves pulled that off they found only copper. ... ;)
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 28, 2019 12:18PM)
Spellbound feels like a chase to me if done on its own. Definitely not theatrical but a cool fast paced novelty. I think the best uses of it in a routine are when the series is built up to. Then it's a surprise.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 28, 2019 01:06PM)
Okay, what's the surprise? What's the setup? :)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 28, 2019 02:47PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, critter wrote:
Spellbound feels like a chase to me if done on its own. Definitely not theatrical but a cool fast paced novelty. I think the best uses of it in a routine are when the series is built up to. Then it's a surprise. [/quote]

I agree that a spellbound works well wrapped up into a routine. Here, I do that pretty much by presenting both coins upfront before going into a few creative spellbound-like changes. So, people don't have to wonder if there are 2 coins, because there are or at least there was. :D After the cons magically switching places, even more magic is in the fact that one coin vanishes and becomes the other coin and vice versa, reinforced by open, clean shows of the hands...Building, building, building and then BAM!--that big surprise. ;)

I don't know, but I think that all the logic is right there for all the magic it shows. But as my grandpa would often say, "I can show you better than I can tell you." :)

[YOUTUBE]5J7W-5ter1k[/YOUTUBE]
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 28, 2019 04:35PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Okay, what's the surprise? What's the setup? :) [/quote]

Like in wild coin. There's a buildup to the full spellbound part of it. That's what makes it climactic in the context of that routine. Roth even explains the first one is for variation. Then the last sequence really knocks their socks off. It's not just doing the same thing four times, it's doing it twice and then doing it better and then doing it even better.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 29, 2019 07:18PM)
Goshman said the item was for himself and played music to accompany his recital. The switches were evident in result yet invisible as he performed.

Try thinking of Roth's wildcoin as an outline for some magical effect you want to share with audiences. If narrating is your style - go for it. All the better if you find some magical effect under the mechanics. Pick some effect to drive the changes beyond switch practice/Or be decisive and play up the impossibility of the switches. Roth's purse and glass routine is a transposition with three coin changes.
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 29, 2019 08:01PM)
Thanks.
Message: Posted by: simplymagicweb (Oct 30, 2019 12:27PM)
A little spellbound within a stand up wild coin style routine. Hope you like it

https://youtu.be/pbaKa89p4JQ
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 4, 2019 07:57AM)
Is anyone finishing the routine by having the coin change into a button from the front of their jacket?
Message: Posted by: Rick Holcombe (Nov 21, 2019 01:08PM)
Here is one attempt at giving the routine a premise.


[youtube]SchNympuh80[/youtube]<---PRESS FULL SCREEN