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Topic: Download Directions
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 4, 2018 04:03AM)
Bought a card trick from Penguin that I am not going to use and really dislike. The directions were a download only. If I want to sell the trick can I make a DVD of the directions and sell with the trick?
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 4, 2018 04:22AM)
I don't believe so, but I don't know. Interesting question.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 4, 2018 01:03PM)
You literally just described pirating a product.

Have you spoken to Penguin about it?
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 4, 2018 01:48PM)
Thank you for your input Chris. I understand what I described, that is why I'm in the "right or wrong section." I have taken your advise and I have contacted Penguin, awaiting their reply. I want to be clear to everyone though.... I'm not upset with Penguin, they have delivered exactly what I bought. I just don't like it. I hope no one misses the spirit of which this is asked. When you buy a zig-zag do you get instructions? Of course you do, but how without using the Harbin book?
Almost all my library are books, DVDs and yes the dreaded VHS (which I have saved to DVD) for longevity. Recently I have bought 4 "download only" tricks. Interesting enough I have seen 2 of them for sale in our Café, including the one I would like to sell. I have also seen all 4 being sold on Facebook. I'm wondering how, the right way? I'm looking for an answer from some of the great minds we have here, not an opinion.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 4, 2018 02:21PM)
I got what you meant, don't worry. Sometimes we think it'll work for us, and it doesn't.

Personally I just take the hit in these cases as digital content is rarely authorized to be resold. Buyer beware, that sort of thing.

Generally Penguin has always treated me well if I had issues with a product.
Message: Posted by: stempleton (Jan 4, 2018 03:35PM)
This is one of the reasons I detest online instructions. Online dealers go under, accounts change (like mine did recently, resulting in chaos to my Penguin video section) and of course, selling my unused magic. I see this as cutting expenses for product developers, but it certainly doesn't do a lot of good for the end user. And here's a query: if you purchase the physical prop, and are able to resell it, why would you be prohibited from selling the instructions to it? And if so, are you able to type up your OWN instructions, if you were forced to?
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 4, 2018 05:35PM)
You are hitting the nail on the head Stempleton. I go back to the Harbin book. Only 500 made, and the original zig-zag plans. For someone to sell the zig-zag they must've used (maybe rewritten) the Harbin's instructions.
These online instructions disappear, just like one of the four I have bought is now gone in cyber world. Glad I made a DVD for my own use, and downloaded a copy on the computer, which will not last forever either.
I am interested in what Penguin says, it I guess you could sell the original prop and make your own DVD for instructions.....still this seems too much.
So if all magicians start making downloadable instructions, will this cause no selling of used magic... I know this will never fully happen, but heck I also said VHS would be around forever and now you can't even find a player, should've stayed with beta....
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 7, 2018 03:14PM)
If you’re asking about ethical transfer of ownership, say between two user accounts similar to physical items... not really a problem as we already have atm banking.

But this is really a matter for publishers more than our secrets market.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Jan 8, 2018 07:59AM)
I say "it depends."

If you bought a physical prop and the download is the instructions for using the prop in the routine, I would have no problem selling the instructions with the prop. And functionally, you can only sell it once in that scenario.

Where it becomes more interesting is when there is no prop and the downloaded method for a routine is the only thing you bought. Like buying the instructions for how to do a trick with a regular deck of cards. In that instance, what's to stop you from selling it a hundred times? Or a thousand? That's where I think it becomes ethically troublesome.

So, which is it? Prop with download instructions, or just the instructions for a method used with a generic prop?
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jan 8, 2018 11:14PM)
[quote]On Jan 4, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
You literally just described pirating a product.[/quote]

It's okay when Ellusionist does it though, right?
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 9, 2018 02:51AM)
It is definitely a prop with instructions. The prop is a deck of cards but a gaffed deck of cards only for this trick. Penguin has not answered my question yet.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 9, 2018 08:21AM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2018, mantel wrote:
[quote]On Jan 4, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
You literally just described pirating a product.[/quote]

It's okay when Ellusionist does it though, right? [/quote]

This makes no sense.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 9, 2018 08:26AM)
I guess the issue would be just doing a direct copy of the video footage - which clearly is someone else's work. The way round it would be to make your own set of instructions. I'm interested to see what Penguin say. I can't imagine they'll okay it.
Message: Posted by: danaruns (Jan 9, 2018 09:07AM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Magic_son wrote:
It is definitely a prop with instructions. The prop is a deck of cards but a gaffed deck of cards only for this trick. Penguin has not answered my question yet. [/quote]

I would have zero problem with that. You're selling a gaff with instructions on how to use it. Useless without the gaff. So, I'd say go for it guilt free.
Message: Posted by: mantel (Jan 9, 2018 05:18PM)
[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Jan 8, 2018, mantel wrote:
[quote]On Jan 4, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
You literally just described pirating a product.[/quote]

It's okay when Ellusionist does it though, right? [/quote]

This makes no sense. [/quote]

How so?

[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Terrible Wizard wrote:
I guess the issue would be just doing a direct copy of the video footage - which clearly is someone else's work. The way round it would be to make your own set of instructions. I'm interested to see what Penguin say. I can't imagine they'll okay it. [/quote]

I thought he was making his own set of instructions. But I may not be right.
Message: Posted by: Terrible Wizard (Jan 10, 2018 04:21AM)
If he's making his own instructions then theres no problem, afaik you cannot copyright instructions to a magic trick, only the actual wording/video footage.
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 17, 2018 08:23AM)
I will give Penguin one more week to answer my question. And if they do not answer, I will take it as if they do not care if I sell it with a DVD copy.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 17, 2018 09:15AM)
Have you sent more than one email? Or tried the chat function on their page? A single email can get lost.
Message: Posted by: Magic_son (Jan 18, 2018 03:42AM)
Here is the information of the email. On January 4 I sent this email "Hello, Just a quick question, I bought this trick and really do not like it, how do I sell the instructions with a download only instructions?" Of course the name of the trick was in the subject line.
I thought my question was clear, and to the point since they know this is a download only instructions. On January 9 they sent back a response saying that they are sorry that I did not like the trick but they do not exchange or return for people who do not like the trick.
On January 9 I responded with this, just in case I may not have been clear

Thank you for your reply ______, but I never wanted a exchange or return. I received exactly what I asked for, just isn't for me.
My question was if I wanted to sell the trick, how can I sell the directions without copying the download on a DVD. I was going to sell it on Facebook or Magic Café. I wanted to make sure I didn't break any copyright rules.

I will try to live chat with someone today, but not sure if my iPad will let me.
I think at this point waiting one more week is not only fair, but it is also shows on all sides that I'm trying to do the right thing. I still wonder if it is legally wrong when trying to sell a gaffed trick that only has downloaded instructions. OR instead of making a DVD just send them the download I bought via mail.....

I do,find this an interesting subject in a changing world of magic and the computer download world.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 18, 2018 10:32AM)
You have certainly inspired some discussion and thought.
Message: Posted by: Mad Jake (Feb 4, 2018 08:46PM)
Most of the effects I make and sell are sold with downloadable instructions. I've seen several effects I've sold show up for sale and I encourage the seller to include the downloadable instructions.

As far as not being able to copyright instructions and routines, I don't know who your copyright or IP attorney is, but I would find a new one.
Message: Posted by: mrjinglesusa (Feb 5, 2018 07:15PM)
If the instructions are downloadable, I see no issue downloading the instructions and putting them on a cd for the buyer of the prop.

The interesting thing would be if the instructions were NOT downloadable. Then what?
Message: Posted by: mantel (Feb 15, 2018 12:16AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2018, Mad Jake wrote:
As far as not being able to copyright instructions and routines, I don't know who your copyright or IP attorney is, but I would find a new one. [/quote]

Terrible wizard is writing about the fact that if someone else writes instructions in their own words or makes their own video to post on a video sharing site such as YouTube copyright doesn't matter.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Feb 17, 2018 03:14AM)
[quote]On Jan 8, 2018, mantel wrote:
[quote]On Jan 4, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
You literally just described pirating a product.[/quote]

It's okay when Ellusionist does it though, right? [/quote]

Makes perfect sense when you know their history and business practices.
Message: Posted by: landmark (May 3, 2018 10:32PM)
Let's put the question in an even more unambiguous form:

You buy an ebook. May you sell that digital file to someone?

I think the answer would have to be, yes, if you destroy your file immediately afterwards.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (May 4, 2018 08:02AM)
Landmark your wrong. You never buy an eBook you lease it. As such you can't sell it no matter what as it dosen't belong to you. It belongs to the creator. Even sharing an ebook without permission from the author would be wrong. The only thing you can LEGALLY do with an eBook you bought is read it for yourself.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 4, 2018 11:54AM)
Where is the law on an Ebook that states you only lease it? That is interesting and I never knew it.

Every ad I ever see with an Ebook state clearly how to purchase the book.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (May 4, 2018 01:28PM)
I'll take your bait on this one Dan. When buying and eBook it's a "limited use agreement". Like when you buy sheet music only different. You would have the right to read the music and play it for yourself but publicly the exhibition rights stay with the creator. With magic and mentalism performing arts. When buying an eBook "usually" one has the right to read make for themselves and perform that which is written. However manufacturing right and some performing rights might be omitted. Most eBooks state clearly in there copyright that "no unauthorized copy of the book may be made". That would even include backup copies.

As with other threads where I have enlightened you, I hope you are now better informed?